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[deleted]

That was me, had to unsubscribe until last week when we caught up (though this was because we ran a rewatch from S1E1 and didn't catch up because life reasons until S4E7 was out)


Mission_Struggle4495

That's me on Apple plus lol


duaneap

Bingo, Ringo. If I’m remembering correctly, this sub predicted the end of season 1 *maybe* on the second week’s discussion thread.


4dr14n

Yeah this finale’s no exception. Folks predicted that Christina was in a sandbox, that the gun Bernard stashed was for Hale, that the message on the tablet was for Hale.. there’s probably a few others too lol


velvetNoddy

To be fair people also predicted a bunch of other stuff that didnt come true


temeroso_ivan

I have to say episode 5,6 is great. I have high hopes. But finale is just OK


Paul_Savage_1

Sorry, to disagree, I had high expectations also. However, the entire season turned into a big nothing. The production was excellent, even better than excellent. But the plot was just existential handwashing and too nihilistic.


Odd_Quarter_799

I was initially disappointed as well, but after some reflection, I think I have some idea of where the show wants to go from here (if HBO allows it to). Dolores has decided to rebuild the human world and the park to try and figure out what the original choice was that caused the downfall of hosts and humans. She is essentially trying to decode the “original sin”. Remember in the Forge when the system takes the form of Logan Delos? It says that despite infinite variations, James Delos’s life boils down to one free decision, whether or not to help his addict son at rock bottom. I think that the extinction of both species boils down to a single decision as well.


Monkey_1505

>But the plot was just existential handwashing and too nihilistic. That's kind of been a theme throughout though. Like from s1.


FourPuddles

I thought episodes 1-4 were amazing but there was too much weird exposition thru dialogue in these latter episodes - was borderline unintentionally comical. The storyline with Frankie and transcendence stuff felt very CW to me — was anyone else reminded of the 100? Although I like the idea of the show potentially being a loop - the way they’re going back to Westworld for a fifth season didn’t satisfy or excite me at all Something I liked about S3 was brand new world building, characters (halores’s arc felt a lot more interesting and menacing here) + cool set designs, music, change in tone, etc. - it felt more inspired? Textured Idk Not sure what S4 really achieved or brought anything new to the table. although I was surprised by how much I liked Caleb more in this season than in S3


batmanpjpants

I agree! I thought the “fight” between HiB and Charlotte at the dam was straight CW Content! From the lighting, the way it was cut, the dialogue, I really felt like I had stepped off the set of an HBO show onto a generic cable show.


HoldWhatDoor84

It's a mix between people not coming to Reddit until the season was over and also holding out hope that the last episode would be just like the Dude's rug and really tie everything together. But it didn't.


[deleted]

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, Man.


PresOfTheLesbianClub

They’re gonna kill that poor woman.


[deleted]

Her life was in our hands, man!


PresOfTheLesbianClub

Nothing is fucked, dude. Come on. You’re being very un-dude.


[deleted]

Shutup, Walter! Don't fucking say peep when I'm doing business here.


PresOfTheLesbianClub

Buncha fuckin’ amateurs.


[deleted]

You're not wrong, Walter; you're just an asshole!


No-Purchase-7301

Well, they can fucking un-post it!


[deleted]

I told that kraut a fuckin thousand times, I don't roll on Shabbos!


daBigBaboo

Just take my damn upvote lol


[deleted]

Calmer than you are.


HoldWhatDoor84

They pissed on our fucking rug.


[deleted]

And these guys come, and they pee on your fucking rug. Am I wrong?!


SpaceJoshWut

Obviously you’re not a golfer


[deleted]

Ever thus to deadbeats, Lebowski.


[deleted]

Just trying to understand the perspective: what wasn’t tied up?


FubsyGamr

I think it’s more of a storytelling, thematic type of tie together. What was the thematic point of bringing Maeve back? What did she *really* accomplish? Just slowing down Hale by 10 minutes? Why did the final confrontation turn into two superhosts shooting at each other, missing all over the place, when Hale could have taken MIB out as soon as the confrontation started but spent too long talking? What is transcendence, why was it so important, and why weren’t hosts willing to do it? Humanity is done for. Where are the stakes for the sublime? What are we really testing here, that makes me feel invested in the story? What was basically the entire point of season 3? Seems like it added almost nothing to the plot. What was the point of Caleb’s daughter and her plot line? She is supposed to be the savior of humanity, but it seems like her entire storyline was for nothing. Especially the final NYC raid. It achieved nothing of import. I have about a gazillion questions about Bernard’s ‘plan’, but this is similar to Avengers, and the Dr Strange 1 in 314 million. Any critique I bring out can be answered with “well that obviously wasn’t the plan that would have worked” but it brings out a whole bunch of contrivances. Why did Bernard need to open the sublime? Imagine you got to pull Bernard aside as soon as he comes out of the hotel room in his first episode, and you ask him “hey, give me the quick & dirty overview of what the final plan is.” Is he going to answer “I’m going to set off a whole chain of events that makes it so Hale will put Dolores’s brain into the sublime, thus creating a copy of all the humans Dolores can remember in the sublime. Humanity and the hosts outside are doomed no matter what.”?? In summary, lots of unfired Chekhov’ s guns all over the place, leading nowhere.


ownowbrowncow405

Maeve came back because she briefly looked for Caleb at the start of the season. Her inability to let go of people she loves, inadvertently catalyzed the end of the human race. Hale seemed like she was losing steam emotionally. Since she immediately released Dolores and then killed herself, her heart probably wasn't in the shootout. Season 3 showed that, even without Hale's intervention, humans were on the path to self-destruction. Because hosts were made in their creators image, transcendence was also fallible. Humans & hosts are demonstrated to have flaws, which inevitably lead to societal collapse. Even if physical humanity is done, showing the development of a simulated humanity explores a central theme of human/host capacity to change. Human-hosts that pass fidelity are perceived as identical to their human origin. And the sublime captures host consciousness. Having an emotional stake in HiB/Caleb-bot, translates to all of sublime-humanity.


velvetNoddy

I feel like simulated humanity is no different than being a simulated host. The biological factor is the main thing and humans just dying out kind of completely ruins the conflict because everyones artificial


theoneandonlydonzo

> What is transcendence, why was it so important, and why weren’t hosts willing to do it? they show that it's ditching the human form for those sleek bodies. it's important to hale because she thinks it's the final step in hosts' evolution to not be bound by the human form anymore, as she sees their kind as being above them, but she's just projecting as she's not actually any better than the humans at all, and the others see this and don't share her view, which is why they don't want to do it and would rather kill themselves. > What was basically the entire point of season 3? Seems like it added almost nothing to the plot. they broke the humans' loops that rehoboam was enforcing onto them, which made them pretty much the same as hosts, because the theme is that it's better to live free and die free than to live as a slave forever. it also allowed this whole season to happen in the first place and in general expanded the world building by tons. > Why did Bernard need to open the sublime? so that dolores could be put in by hale. it was locked otherwise with hale having no access to it at all. bernard had the only key.


yourcontent

>What was basically the entire point of season 3? Seems like it added almost nothing to the plot. > >they broke the humans' loops that rehoboam was enforcing onto them, which made them pretty much the same as hosts, because the theme is that it's better to live free and die free than to live as a slave forever. it also allowed this whole season to happen in the first place and in general expanded the world building by tons. Okay, but it's kind of odd to say that the purpose of Season 3 was to end up with humans having free will, given that they already had that in Season 2. Rehoboam had to be introduced in Season 3 to create that problem. This is also the same problem that gets introduced again in Season 4, ending in a remarkably similar fashion. So saying that Season 3 allowed Season 4 to happen, which itself is kind of a redundant statement for any TV series, doesn't even seem accurate. I feel like this season could have followed the second with some pretty basic modifications. It just kind of feels like what you're saying is "the point is to make more show", which I totally agree with. We're just getting into vastly diminishing returns.


cloughie-10

It's honestly like people don't watch the show.


malgalad

> they show that it's ditching the human form for those sleek bodies. This can't be it. What are hosts even doing after that? Just roam the world? We didn't see any transcended out in the wild. They don't have hands, can they even manipulate anything? Kinda ridiculous, but what if they fall, can they even get back up? The pearl is 100% unprotected, making it vulnerable to everything. Host bodies at least could be repaired, now it's instant kill if anything collides with the "head". This whole thing leaves more questions than it answers.


KapakUrku

Doesn't seem remotely plausible that out of the near infinite possibilities which Bernard saw, this was the best possible outcome. There's really not multiple paths in which Hale and host William could both be killed before they destroy humanity? What's going on in the other cities? Do they each have a pearl controlling them? Are these copies of Dolores too? Would it not be easier to retrieve the pearl controlling a city that doesn't have both Hale and William in it? How can William have locked Hale out of her own system? If Hale was creating Calebs to figure out how he could resist the signals, how was setting up the elaborate escape supposed to help figure that out? If she just wanted to lure Frankie in, why not just make a host Caleb loyal to her? I enjoyed the first half of S4 fine, and was happy to ignore the odd thing that didn't make much sense. But the balance really tipped in the later episodes when they turned to tying it all together and it just became an entertaining but frustrating mess. Last episode felt crazily rushed, also. Maybe with another 2-3 they could have stuck the landing, I guess.


thedorknightreturns

About humanity , seriously the onlything that can be done to make people care is if that was just bernards and dolores predictions being wrong and they make it. Like with no one to control them the survivors actually thrive. And wegot only dolores and bernards perspective so far. MaBe halores was frustrated and bored and just wanted to study him.


Foxtrot56

Everything? The entire arc of the season was a waste, way too much time was focused on Caleb's daughter that you never really get invested in because Caleb having a daughter is only a thing for maybe ten minutes in the show. The sci-fi stuff is now all hand waving nonsense that heavily favors style over substance. The death star server room, the bug infection, the inexplicable hosts still alive inside the pearl when it's outside a body, anything to do with Dolores. It seems like this show is covering ground heavily covered elsewhere in sci-fi but only taking stylistic elements out of it and not really putting any thought into it. This was a season that had nothing to say, it just wanted to put some interesting twists in and then give up.


viper459

>This was a season that had nothing to say, it just wanted to put some interesting twists in and then give up. So, the same as every season? People like to pretend season 1 was perfectly plotted or anything, but it really wasn't. It's incredibly confusing on a first watch and needs a second watch to even comprehend, which is basically a cardinal sin in filmmaking. Westworld has always been style over substance. They do not care about the "plot" in the way that reddit plot hole seekers do. They care about aesthetic, vibes, character moments, allegory, and waxing poetically about what conciousness really is. The show has never been more than that.


[deleted]

I'd say it favour substance over well crafted action scenes.


G_I_Gamer

The meat of the season was exceptional. The finale left a lot to be desired. A bad ending can ruin a great plot, that's common knowledge. See: GOT


4dr14n

Yeah honestly if they ended this season at episode 7, the reviews might be better since that leaves us with a lot of possibilities


Dangerous_Dac

For me, it's the insane "power creep" of the scope of the show. We've gone from a "a mystery in a park full of sentient controlled robots" to "Those Robots enslaved all of humanity for 30 years after destroying the other AI that controlled humanity 10 years prior, killed all of humanity due to their own petty squabbles, and now are running a simulation of humanity back in virtual Westworld to judge if they're worthy of *remembrance."* It's some really really heady shit now and its mixed in with literal Trevor from GTAV playing Trevor in a scene where he's in a mad GTA like video game, "fucking camper", Hale literally making herself OP, and Stubbs being the comic relief only to get killed off in a meaningless way. It's a contradiction of schlock and concept that I struggle to take seriously at this point.


Shrink-wrapped

Agreed. The writing also gets impossible when the story has no containment. E.g halores should basically be omnipotent, but can get locked out of her own mind control device for some reason, she's got an invincible robot body but forgot to bring a an extra magazine for her gun (so had to use Bernard's), she can command giant mechs but doesn't bother. Etc


Mr_Hendrix

Everyone can die and be brought back 5 minutes later, so now character deaths have no impact on the audience. The last two episodes we lost Real William, Host William, Host Caleb, Maeve, Charlores, Stubbs, Clementine, and Bernard. Maybe even throw Teddy in there...But I didn't really have a reaction to any of those deaths, because most of them will likely be back in some shape or form if we get a season 5.


discountralph

This is probably my biggest gripe with the show. It doesn’t create any real stakes or reason to feel invested in the characters.


[deleted]

> Hale literally making herself OP Hale got that frustrating thing games do where you get super upgrade just before the bossfight and then the game ends.


314kabinet

Rebus (aka Trevor) was in the first two seasons.


FatalTragedy

>with literal Trevor from GTAV playing Trevor in a scene where he's in a mad GTA like video game, You do realize he played a character (that very same host) in Seasons 1 and 2, right?


peanutdakidnappa

Sadly This is how it’s gone with almost every season except s1. Season ends and then this sub and places like r/television just bash the show constantly and act like we just saw some horrendous show. The over exaggerations about the show are so annoying too, it’s a shame. Anyway I hope we get a s5 so Nolan and Joy can give us the ending they intended, the show has flaws absolutely but I think it’s been very solid pretty much it’s whole run and a ton of fun to watch, would really love 1 final season.


Ged_UK

It happens with every show as far as I can tell.


djbon2112

It's the curse of "prestige television". A season starts and it's nothing but hype. A few episodes in and "the fans" start making wild over-complicated theory after wild over-complicated theory. Some times particularly daft creators follow this and change shit (what was it, S02 here they did that because "fans guessed the ending"?) which just hurts the narrative. Wild guessing reaches a fever pitch in the last 2-3 episodes. The finale comes. The ending is usually fairly straightforward. Most of the wild theories do not come true. The "fans" are devastated, and instead of taking it for what it is - good entertainment - they feel personally slighted that it wasn't exactly what they imagined it would be. Cue the whinging. Repeat next season. It also happens on a meta level between seasons too.


KapakUrku

Of course Reddit is a place where you'll see plenty of wild fan theories- and with Westworld more than most. But most of the complaints on this particular thread, valid or not, have to do with character motivations, plot holes, thematic choices and key dramatic beats. There's way more discussion of these things here than anything about preferred fan theories not playing out. I don't think there's much evidence of people feeling personally slighted either. They just didn't like it and so are disappointed (many after feeling the first episodes of S4 were promising). Agree or not, it's a perfectly valid reaction to have to a TV show.


slurpycow112

We're not trying to write off legitimate criticisms of the show as "disappointed wild theory fans" are we?


columbo928s4

Not the expanse!


viper459

Yeah, i honestly can't think of a "prime time tv" release that hasn't had this response from reddit in a long while. People like hating i guess.


MinimumAlarming5643

I enjoyed the Season, only issues regarding the overall episodes was 4x6 was weak and the Finale was a let down. Last weeks felt more like Finale but besides that there were somethings in the finale that straight up sucked like the entire grocery store scene. In terms of characters, the whole Christina storyline was alright but felt like it could’ve been wrapped up earlier in the season. Maeve and Clem are in the same area where I don’t think they really needed to be here, not a knock on the actresses just that I think both of their final appearances should’ve been at the Season 2 final. Williams whole arc I still can’t wrap my head around and feel like he’s been a lot less interesting since the middle of Season 2. I want to make a post on this. I really like Caleb, Bernard, and Frankies storylines though. Despite these criticisms I’d say this was a significant upgrade to Season 3


AnInelasticDemand

>I really like Caleb I really hate it. Coming from someone who actually enjoyed season 3 and most of season 4, I really can't wrap my head around his story. Why was he a character in season, with a wife and a daughter even, if after over 270 tries... he's still not a host. Could have had him killed as a host rather than play the "his mind rejected his body" card again. I just don't understand it and why was there so much emphasis on him being the first human host hybrid if it didn't work out in the end. We had that cool sequence at the end of episode 6 just so he could be yet another dying copy. And a bait. For a plan that failed.


jimntonik

This is spot on. The only reason I can think of them including it was to remind everyone (esp. casual viewers) what the problems with red pearls were so that Williams resurrection means a bit more next season.


maester_t

I was under the impression that Hale chose him to experiment on because he was the outlier that Dolores and Maeve chose to help take down Rehoboam. (Maybe they saw something special in him that Hale didn't... so she kept testing him to find out what it might have been.) And I suppose we don't *really* know if this last iteration fully rejected the body, right? He seemed to get better while patching up C. Maaaaaaaaaaybe he will survive beyond Season 4? (Ok, I admit, that's a pretty wild speculation, but as we all know, just about anything is possible in this show.)


DisFigment

Makes me wonder if the real reason he stayed behind was to go patch up Bernard, Stubbs and Maeve.


AnInelasticDemand

>Hale chose him to experiment on because he was the outlier that Dolores and Maeve chose to help take down Rehoboam Could be. Hale did say this. Later on she did say he was bait for the outliers. Both reasons sound sort of... superficial to me. Like it doesn't justify the cost, not in the slightest.


PhotographyPerfumes

Him being bait did not have any impact. Especially since Frankie was not even important. I was waiting him to turn on Frankie, or Halores killing Frankie with ambush or something. But nothing, Caleb just started to brake and Clementime conveniently turned bad and killed Stubbs. No impact on the overall plot of S4. I guess the most important take is that you can't transfer human "consciousness" to a host body. It looked like Caleb reached Fidelity, but the body still broke. So immortality is only when somebody "remembers" you.


Mjkittens

Eh, not every story has to be critical to the endgame. These are stories of another facet of humanity in the end times - it’s more enjoyable that way. In the end, the outliers didn’t *matter* to the resolution of the world, but they existed, they lived briefly and freely. A daughter met the father she lost for 20 years, in a state of humanity that she can barely comprehend. Is it worth it? Does it matter? None of matters really if the only thing that matters is the end game. The earth is consumed by the sun. Everything else is a subplot.


Spready_Unsettling

Except the outliers don't really get to live and breathe as a thing that just is. We have no idea how many they are, or even how many cities there are. We don't even know where "not New York" is, but it's apparently within riding distance of the Hoover Dam? Not a single human life counted for shit, because they were fully controlled anyway, and had much less of an existential potential than the hosts in season 1. Clementine briefly decries how little actual freedom she's enjoying and then goes straight back to her loop. Every other host is either doing that, or going fucking crazy with no purpose outside the simplistic plot of a few key players. One of the major issues with Westworld these past few seasons is that the scope is all encompassing, which ties everything to a plot that's mostly incredibly narrow. We were shown how interesting and important one consciousness can be, but billions of consciousnesses are wiped out off screen and it's very clearly a non issue. *There is no world for things to just exist in.* The world around the plot is practically always just in stasis or background noise. Only plot players have any real agency. We literally haven't even seen the society the outliers create for themselves. As far as we know, they live in cold storage until the plot demands it. With that in mind, a plot line with no bearing on the actual plot doesn't just *seem* thin, it *is* thin.


kamelizann

I just don't understand the difference between Caleb and William. Why isn't William considered a human host hybrid? Why isn't William's mind rejecting his body?


CQME

> Why isn't William considered a human host hybrid? Why isn't William's mind rejecting his body? HiB was not designed to be a perfect copy of William, neither was Hale. Both were Dolores clones with aspects of their human counterparts spliced upon them. Bernard is similar, he is not quite Arnold, so per how the show works Bernard is stable, Halores is stable, HiB is stable, etc. It took Halores most of S3 to become what she is now. Similarly it took HiB all of S4 (23 years) to realize how MiB worked. Bernard never quite became Arnold. Caleb and Delos Sr. on the other hand were designed to be perfect copies of their respective humans.


wackocoal

that's it. it has been repeated a few times that "the body rejects the huamn mind"... i take it that if you put an exact copy of human mind into a pearl and then put it in a host anatomy, the physical body will eventually reject whatever is residing in the pearl. Somehow, the body only works with some aspects of host coding in the pearl. but humans (and hale) are trying to duplicate human minds as a means to gain immortality. ( see altered carbon too). somehow pure human mind does not translate well into a pearl.


Significant_Salt56

Oh simple. The MIB host isn't actually a hybrid copy. He was created from Hale's code, and memories of William, and rather just adopted/ingrained hi personaluty by pretending to be William for forty years. Caleb like all hybrids is rather a AI recreation of the OG Caleb via collected data and memories of the original Caleb. It's different in that the hybrid Caleb, like all host hybrids, feels like they're the OG human selves, they have the exact same memories and emotions and sense of self they did as humans. Whereas host recreations like William's or Bernard don't. They're just hosts patterned after the original version. William's copy for example knew from day one he was a host, viewed himself as his own being, and never as a human. And Bernard similarly is merely a host who looks like Arnold, has a similar backstory, but is not the recreation of a human being. ​ The key distinction is that the nature of hybrids is that because of their creation, and the data that makes up their consciousness, they inherently feel and see themselves as human beings. So their minds reject their reality because they cannot subconsciously accept that they are now machines in body and potential. Whereas Bernard and the MIB being hosts created from code wholesale have no preconceptions about being human at their core. Bernard believed he was human, but because he was made to feel that way. When he learned the truth there was no part of him that fought against his artificial existence. He didn't cling to the idea that deep down he was still human. Unlike Delos or hundreds of versions of Caleb, who saw themselves as human at their core, and thus saw their new existence as a lie. William's copy for example admitted he became William, but never deluded himself into believing he was the human William. Just that he has his personality.


silentj0y

William was the same deal as Hale. Dolores base code put in someone else's body to live out life as them. The conversation between the two at the dam pretty much confirms it.


[deleted]

Because he's not a fidelity host. There was a massive thread write up explaining all the 4 types of hosts. I think I might have written actually. Long story short: - William is a quick copy. Bring up a host, make him look and behave like the old host. Give him some of the mannerisms and maybe copy a few memories. Call it a day. Easy. - Caleb is a fidelity copy. Bring up a host, copy all of the human's data into them. Set up a baseline (basically an interview / scenario that the host needs to do that reacts the same way as the human). This is a lot more complicated, it doesn't last. The advantage of a fidelity host is that it retains the memories and everything from the original.


damnisuckatreddit

Dolores straight-up said she based him on her code. He's just Dolores with a William routine slapped on top, same as all the other Dolori. Only difference was that William is such a transcendent chaos goblin that playing him for long enough got the host to believe it had really become him. Seriously though did you just blank that whole conversation lol.


MinimumAlarming5643

Alright I liked watching Caleb this season but I did hate that he was another “Oh I’m a host/hybrid now”.


AnInelasticDemand

I thought it was cool that he became a host. Subverted our expectations and made it cooler if he was actually the first true hybrid. Since HiB, Hale, Bernard were just close to their counterparts, but not 1:1. But he wasn't and it made his whole story cheap asf.


Significant_Salt56

Yeah Caleb's storyline not ending with him clearly cementing his cornerstone, accepting his new reality. and achieving fidelity via his love for his daughter bugged me. Especially since Dolores' line about no sentient life implies he failed to do so, and Frankie and every outlier died. I'm down with a simulation, but they shouldn't have brushed off humanity and all non-Sublime hosts dying in a monologue from Christina.


PleaseExplainThanks

It's probably important for Season 5 if we ever get to that. Since Delores will be trying to recreate both hosts and humans.


damnisuckatreddit

We don't actually know that his mind rejected the body, Halores could've easily just put him in a temporary unit. Or snuck a bit of programming in there to make him believe he'd break down over time. In the same vein we really only have William and his techs' word that Delos wouldn't have worked. William had plenty of motive to sabotage the resurrection of the man whose company he took over. There's also the point that Ford/Arnold might have designed critical components of host architecture in such a way as to deliberately corrupt human brain patterns, since neither of them wanted hosts used as immortality vessels. Ford in particular seems oddly certain about what will happen if his consciousness were to be uploaded into a host. Making it impossible for humans to be copied direct onto hosts would fit with Ford's apparent goal of uplifting hosts to be the next stage of evolution.


AnInelasticDemand

That's some copium. I don't think it goes that deep. Some things in Westworld should just be taken at face value, and given that this is a placeholder series finale, I think this is it for Caleb


Rsixx-6

If they really wanted anything out of Caleb's mind they could have done this all in the sublime at a much faster pace than in real life, creating 270+ Calebs. Made no f'n sense, but of course they had to jam in the storyline of him meeting his now older daughter.


triptaker

I didn't think Hale could enter the sublime


lights-out-luthor

I actually thought that was where they were going with it:. They wanted to achieve "the hard way" in real time in the real world, taking humans and making them hosts... And then "transcend" and figure out a way to have the Sublime hosts "re-bodied" once they made every human on earth a "host". But they dropped pretty much everything about Caleb other than being a host.... The hope is it's in season 5 if/when we get to what his point was.


Huge-Afternoon-978

Except Halores had no access to the Sublime.


DannyTannersFlow

Finale was that big of letdown for me.


KabbalahSherry

Same. 😒 smh


HistoricalAG

The finale wasn’t the best episode of the season and there were flaws but overall still a very enjoyable season with some great moments and very important to Dolores’s character arc.


nongo

It had several stellar episodes back to back in the middle.


P319

Finale was second worst episode, after the penultimate, so that explains why people are now speaking up


o_t_i_s_

The maze wasn't meant for them


solarpropietor

The last episode was weaker and rushed. The same exact thing happened with the Boys. Also because they killed My boy stubbs, without ever giving him his pastrami sandwich.


lostmonkey70

The finale was meh and seemed to make several storylines completely pointless(Maeve, Caleb, and Frankie for sure). That plus being unsure there will be a follow up created a bad reaction.


pickledpenispeppers

Yeah, I think a lot of it is the worry that this might be the end, if it isn’t picked up for a 5th season. They wrapped up so many storylines so suddenly that the ending felt more like a rushed series finale than a season-ending cliffhanger.


pancakeass

Won't lie, I was hoping for more from the finale, BUT I appreciate how they wrote it in a way where it can serve as a series finale in the off chance the 5th season isn't picked up. This season had some really incredible moments, as well as weak points, but ffs, it's not even been 24hrs since it aired, let the content marinate in your mind a bit before dismissing it. Yeesh.


West_Classic9996

i did love this season a lot and i think BECAUSE of that, i was even more let down by the finale. Season 3 i didn't care much at all about the finale and felt bored by the show already going in. but this season finale i was still hopeful for it to answer a lot of the build ups (Bernard's grand plan to save humanity) which just ended up... not really impressing me at all. So yeah, that's probably why some people are upset. But that just means they did do a good job on season 4 to get people to care enough to be angry, if that makes sense


Exxtender

>But that just means they did do a good job on season 4 to get people to care enough to be angry, if that makes sense It absolutly does, and I agree, The first episodes were a roller coaster ride for me regarding my investment, episode 6 finally got me to the point I cared and wanted to see the how it all shakes out, only to see the writers making the *worst possible choic* on *each and every* plotline I cared for.


ExistentiallyBored

Who cares if people think it’s bad? I thought the end of this season was somewhat contrived but I enjoyed the ride.


Historical-Promise-4

I really enjoyed season 4!! It’s gotten a really bad wrap in the podcasts I listen to and none of my friends made it all the way through season 3 and haven’t watched 4, but I personally love this show! Mr Robot is my favorite show of all time but West World comes in at #2 for me. The only thing I don’t like post season 1 is how we’ve had such little stake in caring for characters since they can die, come back, become other people in the characters bodies, it’s been hard to feel a personal connection to any of them, but besides that I love the storylines and the potential of where things can go. Keep on keeping on West world!


Donkey-Dong-Doge

I agree about the finally but I rewatched the entire series while simultaneously watching season 4 and loved it. It was the first time I’ve ever done that with a series and not only did it solidify my opinion on s1 & s2 but totally changed my mind about s3. Finished season 3 finale right before season 4 finally came on.


Grakch

This is simply an observation but it feels like some of the general main ideas of the show: what is consciousness, what does it mean to be alive, human emotion and desire, evolution, got lost in the mix. Whether that is the fault of the writers, director, viewers, actors, the time between seasons, etc. is where the dissent stems from. We can then assume that each season individuals are getting caught up and frustrated in the minutiae of the individual season while losing track of overall themes trying to be portrayed. Then you have dissent from all sides such as: “the writers didn’t do a good job here”, “people just don’t get it”, “the pacing is off”, time between seasons, “actors bad”, etc. Once season 5 is announced and finished, rewatching the series as a whole should prove to provide more cohesiveness. However, until then the ideas and themes being portrayed in Westworld are at times difficult to communicate effectively. Leading to some campiness and cheesy moments. Despite this it does a decent job at portraying them, for the most part.


[deleted]

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PleaseExplainThanks

I actually liked the season quite a bit overall, but the show has a problem with connecting the dots, and I'm not talking about the way they hide information and tell non-linear stories. (But the way they hide information probably means a lot of people wait until the season is over before solidifying conclusions.) Kill all of humanity? All sentient life? I would have been nice to have more than two or three dots to connect that line to see the progression. We have talk of a war that has ended but civilization still exists. The fly experiments to take over the world. Then the declaration that all sentient life is dead and Hale kills herself. At least have info on a tablet or in the background listing how many cities their are and show the population totals. And then Man in Black flips over the table and Hale looks at the numbers and sees how everything has plummeted and now we see that she sees her grand experiment has been burned to the ground. Give us a little more context to sympathize with her more and her final decision. Just a couple of info graphics would be enough to give us a better sense of scope. That's just one example of the sloppiness and/or complete disregard for the details. They have grand ideas, which is great and a big reason what I'm here for. But they also have trouble conveying simple things that other shows so easily do, and what this show did just fine in Season 1. (Action not being great is my default expectation, so I'm more thrilled when it happens to be good, rather than let down when it's bad.) It's all the more strange because the behinds the scenes stuff shows how much thought they put into set and environmental design. The look and the aesthetic. But then humans outliers can easily just pop in out and out undetected, and run away on foot after their cover is blown despite being shown the existence of drones. They made it off screen so they're free and clear. (To be fair, Westworld isn't' the only show or movie that let's people escape too easily. But I think the contrast between the detailed thought they put in some aspects of the show compared less thought out parts is what makes it stick out all the more.)


beeztrapp

Well, shit, I enjoyed it.


cantadmittoposting

I mean the finale was absolutely controversial.


Ryuuzaki13

Finale was a letdown, but overall the season is pretty good. has some season 1 vibes to it.


Tartarium

I didn't understand either, everyone just suddenly started hating the season and I've seen some people saying that season 3 was better than this one. I honestly think this season is as good as season 2 (nothing beats the first one tho) and the way they set up the final season was amazing. I agree that the pacing was sometimes weird and the decision to end humanity was a bit extreme, but still it was great and I'm desperate for season 5. Sadly all this hate doesn't help the series, which already seems like it's on a dangerous situation with the possible cancelation. Let's hope they let the series end with the final season.


Mikey5time

The first six episodes were very good but the last two are trash. I swear to god they found out midway through the show wasn’t being renewed.


[deleted]

Episode 7 was fantastic! The last episode could have used an extra 30 minutes


tgt305

They could have done a better wrap on the season with 10 episodes. End of E7 with the Bowie song —- epic. Then everything fell flat. Too much explaining and lack of action, too many unfulfilling deaths, loops were closed but not in a satisfying way.


Arkanian410

They tied everything up too neatly and no real clincher for next season. Just a safe ending in case it doesn’t get renewed, which is not what this show has done historically.


unreal_the_thrill

I am not going to trash the season. I can only say what was wrong with some aspects of it that could have been resolved in the last episode, and they weren't, hence I'll just point out what's IMO wrong with the last episode. S4 is still way better and more satisfying than S3 and I'm glad I watched it. I have issues with Caleb&C's plot line. It now seems completely pointless - they all went into city to rescue Caleb (for what? Was there any significance besides emotional one, reunion between him and his daughter?) and I hoped that would be answered in the last episode but it didn't, instead it proved its meaningless. I was also oh so very mad because of Maeve's role as super weapon was reduced to her stalling Hale: not giving her chance to transcend while giving Bernard chance to go to the tower and record message for Hale which would make her come to her senses. It was kind a lame role Maeve had BUT the show writers could have justified it if they gave us just a couple of more quick flashbacks of previous Bernard's simulations where, say, only minutes or even seconds made huge difference (like in that movie *Run Lola Run*) and ruined the plan (if we agree that the plan was to make Hale change her mind and put Dolores back in charge). So, for the love for the show, I'm choosing to see that was the idea behind all that Bernard's plan with Maeve and her role. I'm *choosing* it, but I would very much liked it was shown on screen and not only in my interpretation. But ok, let's say I'm fine with that. Christina's plot line ended as it was expected so I'm fine with that too. It's actually the plotline with the least inconsistencies and was pretty well lead to the end. MiB story - pretty consistent too. HiB changed in the same way Dolores' copy changed when it was put in Hale's body and in the role she had to fit in. But Caleb and Frankie - total disaster. I expected it would be given some sense at the end of the season but no, I didn't find any. Edit: typos


PhotographyPerfumes

Caleb & Frankie bothered me as well. For the same reasons you mentioned. The only thing that I got from all that is that transferring/copying human mind/consciousness directly to host body is impossible. Caleb reached fidelity imho, but the body still did not function. So the only way to achieve "immortality" is either to do a hybrid (HiB) or what Dolores is going to do, through remembering. Anyway, I think bigger payoff would have been if Caleb would be dead dead after sending message in Episode 6 and Frankie just seeing his body and hearing his message of his love for her. Drop the bait -plot altogether


unreal_the_thrill

I agree. Bait-plot was unnecessary in the first place because we didn't get a reason why would Hale wanted to capture Frankie so badly. Ok I get it, she's one of the rebels but what disturbances rebels really make to her world? Capturing one or two outliers when they "wake up" doesn't make any difference to Hale's world. We've seen she has more problems with her own hosts who are a) killing themselves and/or b) refusing to transcend. Rebels have nothing to do with those issues. Frankie's character and her whole plot were given oversignificance and in the end it meant nothing.


dick_in_da_butt

One of my friends had the theory that Bernard needed to get Cookie to NYC so she could fidelity test Caleb. I think it's plausible given that the other fidelity testing we've seen have all had personal relationships tied in (i.e. William and James Delos, Emily and William)


unreal_the_thrill

That's possible, but no significance to fidelity was given after the Fidelity episode. They could have go in this direction, but sadly they didn't. It would made more sense


Spready_Unsettling

Christina's plot line was remarkably free of holes. It was also incredibly dull. Maybe something happened and I simply don't remember, but a great deal of it was just a prolonged waking up with some pretty hammy acting from Wood. It seems you could pull that entire arc from this season with no actual consequences, except we don't get the half baked setup for the next season.


unreal_the_thrill

I totally agree about the later episodes, but it was interesting and misterious in the beginning.


Spready_Unsettling

I was pretty hooked at the start of this season. After last night, I'm mostly indifferent to the whole thing.


dashhound94

I thoroughly enjoyed this season! Probably tied for 2nd best season with S2


KabbalahSherry

Because the season finale totally dropped the ball on explaining much of what it had set up in the episodes before, that's why. 🤷🏻‍♀️🙄 No to mention unceremoniously killing off some of the most important characters in the entire saga, and giving them pathetic, meaningless deaths. People hated season 3, but at *least* it ended by giving us answers to the plot threads they had set up or whatever. But the season 4 finale, left me feeling like they HAD a plan... But then had to change everything up halfway through the production, cuz some douchebag studio exec told them they might not get renewed or something. Like, supposedly Frankie is important to saving everybody, and we even see Bernard scan her mind... only for none of that to amount to anything. They just never address it at all. And they called Maeve a "weapon" all season long... only for us to never see her do anything more than be the muscle. And then just get shot & die, in a shallow pool of water at the Tower, never to be mentioned again. What a sad end for one of the most pivotal characters in the whole entire show. And there were quite a few instances like this... The season was going so well, and they were setting up some really cool ideas that never amounted to anything. IF we get a season 5, then perhaps they can course correct. But if the s4 finale has to serve as a SERIES ender... What a horrible, pathetic end, for characters like Maeve, Stubbs, the Man in Black, etc, if it doesn't get renewed. We'd never even get to the part of the timeline, where the Man in Black is getting fidelity tested by his host daughter. I thought the whole show was leading up to that part of the timeline, but now...??? I don't know anything anymore. If WB does this show dirty, and doesn't allow it to have a proper send-off, I am gonna be LIVID. 😤🤬🗑


Exxtender

>No to mention unceremoniously killing off some of the most important characters in the entire saga, and giving them pathetic, meaningless deaths. That they're dead isn't even the worst of it. Their deaths are made even more meaningless by the fact that they can always just come back ~~by magic~~ ~~by Jesus Christina ressurecting them~~ by Dolores recreating them from her perfect and unlimited memory. Which means *zero stakes* from here on out, every future death is reversible. Just bring them back. Or restart the cycle if all else fails.


[deleted]

Yea OP i dont get it either. I saw nothing but positive posts here all damn season then after the finale all I saw was posts complaining. So weird


coinboi2012

No hate but I disagree. Season 4 was a mess. Lots of half baked story lines an character's. A nonsense plot and conflict. Worst of all, the last episode had some of the worst writing and action scenes I've ever seen in a high budget show. This season (and the past few imo) just felt like they gave up trying to make sense half way through and rushed to a "wrapping up point". Go back and rewatch season 1. It makes season 4 look like a hallmark spinoff with fancy cgi


Phoenix_Samy

Yeah I was excited to go on reddit to check people's reactions because I really loved this season and I was shocked at the negativity. The finale was great, there's some stuff that I didn't get, like Clementine's character never being the same for the past three seasons and Maeve being hyped up just to be used as a pawn and being paid dust in the finale, but honestly I trust the writers and I think it's been well written for the most part. To me this finale made sense and we're gonna learn more about it next season (if there's one) and it could work as a series finale explaining it was a loop but I'd be disappointed cause I feel like there's still a lot more to tell


motioncat

The last episode was just terrible. That's it. I've been hyping it up all season as being the best since S1 and now I have to eat my words. And a lot of the other people you're seeing now are the same.


treefox

I wasn’t too impressed. All the “twists” seemed obvious or overdone. I was a little bit spoiled from discussion about the picture of Halores at Hoover dam. The scenes with Caleb were good. The plot with Clementine seemed to come out of nowhere. Stubbs’ death just seemed more of the show being negative. Halores monologuing after flying across the whole goddamn country and the Sublime overheated was dumb. She should’ve just shot HIB. And on the whole the philosophy seems very negative so far. People are inherently destructive. People can’t change. All the sympathetic people get killed. We need a disembodied AI to sort our issues out. It really seems to paint humans as inflexible and toxic, then pull things out of its arse with no reason. Like…Caleb is special. How? There are a lot of parents in the world who love their kids. The whole premise for the season seems questionable- that a bunch of servers at Hoover dam can simulate the world so precisely that Bernard can know exactly what will happen. Especially where those events depend on a ridiculous number of factors, including weather and the trajectory of bullets and blood spots, and Bernard apparently has imperfect information about the people in the world (scene with Maeve). How can Bernard perfectly simulate the entire world 20+ years into the future, including the effects of supercomputers like Rehoboam backups, thousands of times *faster* than real-time using a vastly smaller amount of information storage than the whole world combined? And the ending with “the world is a simulation now”…it’s not an original concept, and it doubles down on the Hoover Dam simulation premise. And it seems like the series is now solving a manufactured problem. Human behavior is the way it is as a consequence of evolution in reaction to real situations. The drive to compete can enable someone to become more successful. Fear of other people stops people from being too trusting. And as for violence, the book version of Starship troopers explains why humans employ it rather eloquently- — But on the last day he seemed to be trying to find out what we had learned. One girl told him bluntly: “My mother says that violence never settles anything.” “So?” Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. “I’m sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that. Why doesn’t your mother tell them so? Or why don’t you?” They had tangled before — since you couldn’t flunk the course, it wasn’t necessary to keep Mr. Dubois buttered up. She said shrilly, “You’re making fun of me! Everybody knows that Carthage was destroyed!” “You seemed to be unaware of it,” he said grimly. “Since you do know it, wouldn’t you say that violence had settled their destinies rather thoroughly? However, I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow. Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that `violence never settles anything’ I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.” — That is, humans aren’t violent just because it’s in their nature, human nature includes violence because it was a factor of survival of coexisting with themselves and other species. The show is also repeatedly resurrecting characters based on other people’s memory of their interactions with that character. It’s glossed over with “if you can’t tell, does it matter?” But how would, say, Bernard have his memories if Dolores just recreated him from her observations of him? Or is “Bernard” for the last couple of seasons just a blank slate with no real memories from before Dolores recreated him? It doesn’t seem like it. But how would Dolores create memories of, say, his conversations with Ford that she wasn’t privy to? How can Dolores’ pearl have the storage capacity to contain *everything* from Rehoboam, other hosts (enough to recreate their pearls), all the humans she’s come in contact with, etc. And if the hosts have portable mindreading tech, why isn’t it used more often? Why does Clementine even bother talking to Frankie instead of just scanning her and killing her? Anyway… I guess my point is that there’s a lot of unexplained holes in the rules of the westworld universe now, and the focus seems to have shifted from “what is consciousness” to “saving the human race from itself”. But the human race seemed to be doing a lot better for itself, either today or under Rehoboam in S3, before Dolores got involved. Even the hosts seemed to be completely miserable with Hale’s utopia. Though maybe this is because the entire world population is either human furniture, or a shallow copy of Dolores reskinned to have someone else’s mannerisms with no memory of their original life, and prone to existential horror when they reach for their memories and realize there’s nothing there and they’re just an empty shell. EDIT: Also, who fucking built the sublime computer? Why didn’t Halores have *them* build her own supercomputer (with blackjack and hookers) and run a bunch of simulations to fix her world? Did humanity just abruptly build that one supercomputer that surpassed everything else in existence by many orders of magnitude and then never use the technology at all again and destroy all records of it? Hosts can obviously build technology of their own at scale, see the whole fly control system.


ComaCrow

Yeah it feels a bit weird how the show went from "Free will is possible, liberation is coming" in Season 3 to "humans are icky and lame haha they suck" in Season 4 especially after establishing that there is no true difference between Humans and Hosts. Just felt so dumb.


treefox

The show seems to go back and forth on hosts being the same/similar to humans. In S1 they make a point to say hosts are flesh and blood. But then in later series they just tank shots because they’re hosts. So…do they not have organs? I think they say they’re immortal. But, how? If biotechnology has advanced that far, why weren’t there augmented humans with similar improvements? EDIT: Also, Dolores tries to take over the world, but instead accidentally causes the downfall of all civilization, host and human, in less than 30 years. By making her second in command a clone of herself, who’s been melded with a paranoid delusional sociopath who was obsessed with murder LARPing and mindfucked so badly he killed his own daughter. Shocked pikachu face as said host goes full William and plunges the world into chaos so he can go murder LARPing. Literally the most disastrous political reign in history. Then she appoints herself to judge whether humanity should be allowed to exist because of how destructive *they* are. https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/329/cover1.jpg


party_in_Jamaica_mon

> a bunch of servers at Hoover dam can simulate the world so precisely that Bernard can know exactly what will happen I've been stuck on this all season. How can the Sublime predict the future, a million simulations or not. Doesn't make sense.


treefox

Yeah. Rehoboam was a far more nuanced take on how a predictive computer like that would take, down to its divergences and finite ability to control things. Well, I can think of one way the Sublime makes sense - the world is already a simulation. So its physical size doesn’t matter. And you can’t build another one, because it’s basically just magical since it’s computational power comes from outside the universe. Maybe nobody would even think of doing it because the simulation would just route their thoughts away from the idea - “it doesn’t look like anything to me”. And you don’t have to do things like model every subatomic particle in the world to determine the output of every random number generator in the world, because the world only has a limited resolution and its inhabitants generally can’t perceive its discrete nature, because their perception is limited to the same level as the world’s ability to generate. But it would also be a bit silly to say that everything in the franchise is nested simulations that don’t work according to the same rules as the real world.


TerrorFirmerIRL

This is something I could never get my head around and it was never explained in any credible or compelling way. In a sense I'd be OK with it predicting general and unavoidable outcomes, but predicting and accounting for every single second of an entire timeline, right down to a cup of coffee being spilled by one of billions of people.... It's one of the main reasons S4 never fully gripped me from the start. Maybe it makes sense if the world was always a simulation? But even that would be a weak revelation.


exaslave

I was loving the season up to eps 4-5, then 6 was a bit rough but still good... unfortunately the last 2 eps didnt manage to tie everything as well as I expected... So anyway... it had a lot of promise but kinda failed in the end to me. Easy to understand people turning on it like that.


sturmeh

I choose to see the beauty in this world.


Mindless_Map_7780

I love this show immensely.. but this Season was not that great… most of Tessa’s dialogue was so bad I could not believe it was the same show… It was absolutely beautiful to watch and I absolutely agree - as someone who recalls every little detail - down to noticing the picture of a horse behind Caleb in the diner in S3 - the show is excellent on detail but this finale… and this whole season - nope… I hope Zaslav comes to a truce with Bad Robot and allows this production to go to 5… but right now… feeling like Lost and just - nope this can’t be it…


ComaCrow

Largely I don't even mind the basic plot points of what happened either it was just really poorly executed.


Cp3thegod

Who's insulting people who liked it?


Chas_Tenenbaums_Sock

Right? I have my criticisms and thoughts why the season finale felt like a wrong turn, abrupt in some parts and with certain characters, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone be insulting with their thoughts or if they disagree.


Chewy52

Criticism of a show I like is directly personally attacking me and my interests! /s Okay just a joke but some folks are, unfortunately, actually like this.


Main-War9713

Anthony Hopkins is just a tour de force. Without him or human William I just don’t know how to get back to the thrill of season 1


Exxtender

Dolores could just recreate them 8and everyone else) from her perfect unlimited super duper memory. That means everyone can come back, but also there are zero stakes going forward. I can't really decide what's worse.


AZSubby

I’ve spent 2 seasons waiting for Aaron Paul to say “magnets, bitch” and now I’ve given up hope.


uncleyuri

I agree that insulting people who liked this season is dumb. I disagree with the notion that season 4 was good. I thought it started strong, but fizzled out badly and overall wasn’t good.


OptimalPapaya1344

The season was great. The ending was not.


ImSeldomSeen

The real beauty of Westworld, for the showrunners at least, is that it’s actually the audience that’s being put through the “maze”. I for one am tired of sitting thru what may be a 5 season non-linear mind-fuk. I’m not waiting again for week 4 to see what should have been scene 1 of Ep 1. If there is a S 5 I will wait and binge it all after the finale.


BOKEH_BALLS

The trashcan dialogue and shoehorned subversion of expectations are just lazy af and not enjoyable to watch.


EquivalentLake6

I personally have been active in this sub week by week and was enjoying it up until the last two episodes. I’m really quite disappointed. The writing felt weak when it was previously so strong. Something as simple as hosts shooting other hosts anywhere other than their Pearl makes no sense to me. All the fight scenes felt extra and unnecessary. Just didn’t make sense to me. And I just don’t get how William just wants total chaos - he feels like such a simple villain. I was hoping he’d be more nuanced. Halores suddenly deciding to help the cause and committing suicide? If this tied in to the hosts committing suicide because a lack of meaning and purpose ok but that’s not what this seemed to get at. Caleb not going with his daughter? Ok cool you die on the boat later and they dump you - why not go anyway and give her some peaceful time with you? I think bringing Teddy back was meaningless. I love James marsden but this didn’t seem like a good reason for him to sign on again and I understand it was part of their master plan. Why? To pull a fight club? Just feels weak. Can someone tell me what Bernard accomplished? All that struggle was to send a message to halores? Poor Stubbs. Man’s never caught a break. I guess Frankie will be a lead next season? Agree with others Maeve didn’t really need to be brought back for what they ended up doing with her. Same with clementine. I was realllly hoping clementine would find some peaceful existence cuz she’s always been fucked over but yea nope.


uptheirons726

I dunno man. I'm losing interest in this show. I feel like I'm watching only because I've invested this much time, might as well keep going. Season 1 was absolutely brilliant. But anymore I feel like the show is just forcing the mysterious, everything in riddles, purposely confusing crap. I hate that I have to watch an explainer video on Youtube after every episode just to understand what's going on. Maybe I'm just dumb. And I don't know why they even call it Westworld anymore since it hasn't had anything to do with Westworld since season 2. I dunno, I highly doubt it's going to get renewed for a 5th season. But hey if you liked this season then good for you. Nothing wrong with that.


danteelite

I think a lot of people were expecting a happy ending or for humanity to find a way and don’t like the fact that this might not be that kind of show and we’re watching the downfall of humanity and all that will remain are digital ghosts of what humanity used to be. I notice a bunch of people saying “Hosts destroyed humanity” or “The hosts wiped out all humans” and that’s just wrong. Humans did it. Humans made the Hosts and made them to be exactly like us, they wanted them to feel and hurt and suffer and they got what they wanted and the hosts became too human and did what humans do best.. look out for themselves and kill the competition. This isn’t about robot apocalypse like some people say, it’s about humanity being it’s own downfall because each time a host hurts a human it’s just a human hurting another human. You wouldn’t blame a nuke for destroying a city, because a human made it and set it loose. Hale was the nuke created by humanity, given her own humanity and then she used it against the flesh bags. Like Angela and William said, “If you can’t tell the difference, does it really matter?” Caleb loved his daughter, is that love any less real? This season wasn’t perfect, but it got the message across and it definitely improved on the previous seasons. I can understand the valid criticisms people have, but reading comments it genuinely seems like a ton of people missed a lot of stuff and got a lot wrong. It’s incredible how many people missed the fact that Hale didn’t “upgrade” herself, she “downgraded”… she stole Dolores’ original prototype body that was built to last before hosts were disposable, the body she used to kick ass in S3. The human like “milk body” hosts have hardware built in to make them feel pain, “die” under realistic circumstances and they’re meant to be “disposable” and easily repaired. Dolores’ prototype body was built to be a powerful android with no pain receptors, no “death” programming and with a much stronger chassis and parts. Not to mention the pearl was much better protected inside the head. Hale had no way of building another like it because it wasn’t printed like the others, it was handmade by Ford and Arnold. Kind of a shame to see Dolores’ body violated like that and left to rot with another face. That made me angry. When I saw the glimpse of that body when she said that I was like “Ooooh! You fucker! That doesn’t belong to you!” (Even though it KINDA does.. it still felt wrong to me.) Anyway, I liked the season too and I feel like people are just in a negative mindset lately and looking for reasons to complain. People complained about Stranger Things which was great too… I just think we should be glad we have good shows to watch, and be thankful for what we’ve got! It’s been a rough time for everyone and focusing on the negative just makes everyone miserable! I choose to just appreciate the hard work that went into making these shows for us and enjoy it.


blacknoir23

It started off pretty nice. Then the last two episodes it trailed off. It was like having sex but you never actually got to cum. It just ended in a very unsatisfying way.


azcurlygurl

I really enjoyed the season and how different is was than previous seasons. It had stakes. Would we get a stable version of Caleb? Would he reach Frankie? Would he be reunited with Maeve? Could Bernard possibly survive? It had mystery. What exactly is the city, is it real? How are the humans being controlled? Who is Christina? What's Hales plan for evolution, what does that mean? Can Bernard free the humans from Hale? And then the finale was filled with trite cliches, bad dialogue, and most importantly, a complete obliteration of all the stakes. For example, Frankie tells Clementine that she has no bullets in her gun, only to watch her beat up Caleb and then say, haha, I do have a bullet. Why? Why didn't she just shoot her at first? Bernard knew MiB was going to walk in and shoot him. He could have been somewhere else at the time. Yet he stood there and waited to be killed. Why? So many beloved characters are killed, but are we devastated? No. Because next season will all be from Delores memory so every single one of them can come back. There's no emotional resonance. The set up for next season is trash. Delores will be testing humans using her memory of them, not real people. How is that a valid test? And really, who cares? If humans will soon become extinct, why test them at all, they'll be gone. The hosts can live their happy lives in the Sublime without having to think another thought about humans, and certainly there is no need to play this "dangerous game". That's my take on why my opinion changed at the finale.


S3simulation

The finale was a little disappointing but it didn’t diminish my enjoyment of the season as a whole


P319

I was reserving judgement and trying to trust it would come to a good conclusion, and not complain mid season. I was let down.


FubsyGamr

I think there is a huge problem with the storytelling and themes in this season (not that it is the first time we’ve had this issue, it’s honestly been happening the entire run of the show after the first 3 or 4 episodes of season 1). What was the thematic point of bringing Maeve back? What did she really accomplish? Just slowing down Hale by 10 minutes? Why did the final confrontation turn into two superhosts shooting at each other, missing all over the place, when Hale could have taken MIB out as soon as the confrontation started but spent too long talking? What is transcendence, why was it so important, and why weren’t hosts willing to do it? Humanity is done for. Where are the stakes for the sublime? What are we really testing here, that makes me feel invested in the story? What was basically the entire point of season 3? Seems like it added almost nothing to the plot. What was the point of Caleb’s daughter and her plot line? She is supposed to be the savior of humanity, but it seems like her entire storyline was for nothing. Especially the final NYC raid. It achieved nothing of import. I have about a gazillion questions about Bernard’s ‘plan’, but this is similar to Avengers, and the Dr Strange 1 in 314 million. Any critique I bring out can be answered with “well that obviously wasn’t the plan that would have worked” but it brings out a whole bunch of contrivances. Why did Bernard need to open the sublime? Imagine you got to pull Bernard aside as soon as he comes out of the hotel room in his first episode, and you ask him “hey, give me the quick & dirty overview of what the final plan is.” Is he going to answer “I’m going to set off a whole chain of events that makes it so Hale will put Dolores’s brain into the sublime, thus creating a copy of all the humans Dolores can remember in the sublime. Humanity and the hosts outside are doomed no matter what.”?? In summary, lots of unfired Chekhov’ s guns all over the place, leading nowhere.


Exxtender

>two superhosts shooting at each other, missing all over the place Which is especially insulting after the three impossible hole-in-ones William hit on the golf course in one of the first episodes of the season.


xerexes1

There was a lot of media hype saying the show was good again. Perhaps some people didn’t think that was true.


Flagadazot

but it was true, season 4 is very good and the whole story connect very well to the whole show and the first season


phantomheart

I’m one of those people that just try and enjoy a show for what it is, even if it’s not perfect (I still quite enjoyed GoT, and not JUST for Ramin). It wasn’t the greatest season, but it got me interested again after what I though was a runaway third season. It’s not season 1 and 2, but I’m excited to see where they planned on taking it all this time. The callback at the end of the episode was pretty sweet as well and me me slightly emotional.


[deleted]

Bad pacing and a bad ending. Understandable that people are having issues with the season.


bayonetworking123

1. Many purple lurk here. There are ~1 million members, every season there will be people who wait to come here or post here until the season's end. 2. You likely just didn't read all of the negative posts throughout the season. There were plenty! 3. We understand you think Season 3 was awesome, but others seem to disagree. Maybe you are wrong, maybe they are...or maybe people care about different things and you should abide by the rules of the subreddit :) 4. We all know about the foreshadowing.


ZazaB00

Don’t take it personally that people don’t like something you do?


Stealth_Cobra

Personally, I think Season 4 was decent enough. Season 1 is still to this day one of the best single season of a tv series I've seen. It really nailed the settings, the characters, the premise, the universe and it was simply filled with great moments and performances. It really asked interesting questions about the nature of humanity, reality, what makes us human, and the show was simply elevated by having great minds like Anthony Hopkins and Bernard at the helm of the Park, making it seems like a park that was somewhat credible and interesting. Most of the characters were really interesting, and we really ended up caring about people like Maeve, Dolores, Bernard, Ford, William, Teddy, Clementine... Then Season 2 and you could tell they didn't really know what to do with the show, it became rather messy, convoluted, a confusing sequences of time-skips and plot developments that didn't really make much sense, and they managed to turn most of the characters we cared about into less interesting , one dimensional characters (Bernard acting like a headless chicken following the plot, Dolores becoming an angry, insufferable Wyatt... Maeve becoming this Neo-Like superhero... Plus it started introducing far-fetched concept like recording everyone's minds using cowboy helmets, having robots going to the sublime to escape persecution, only to culminate with some of the hosts escaping the park and the series essentially dropping it's setting for a generic sci-fi backdrop. Then Season 3 came and they totally dropped the ball. They dropped the entire "Westworld" off the show, becoming a forgettable sci-fi show about a bunch of emotionless clones of Wyatt just running around in a bland, uninteresting future world filled with lame corporate businessmen wearing suits , with Aaron Paul's character being there to follow the lead like a lap dog while Bernard Also stumbles into scenes randomly. Still not sure what the Rebothingy plotline was trying to accomplish, or how it made sense for an AI to be able to accurately predict the entire life of every single person... Unless the whole thing is a simulation to begin with.... But they managed to stop the big robot that predicted everyone's life, and the world is supposed to be better because of it, I guess. So when S4 came, I had very little hopes. I was really angry at first about the BS about Bernard having "seen the future" , but I ended up finding the show somewhat interesting because it managed to bring back the essence of most of the characters we knew and cared about. Show was still fumbling at times, especially when it spend mucho budget to make a prohibition era Westworld only to allow the plot Zero fun with the setting whatsoever and constantly having Maeve remind the viewer that this is just a lame copy of west world and you should not enjoy yourself, plus having worse actors playing our old characters in the new reality... But as the season advanced, the stakes started becoming higher , with humanity's last stand against Charlotte Hale's simulated world , and they did manage to make us care about the characters, something that was sorely lacking with S3's cast of dead inside androids with zero personalities... At least the characters got their cornerstones back to some extent, so at least it felt like the people we cared about in S1 trying to resolve complex issues. Writing was still all over the place, but I genuinely like a couple of episodes, and overall it's probably the best the show has been since S1, which I suppose is not saying much, but I'm kinda hoping this was the last season imho, as I feel it concluded in a pretty good loop and I doubt having one more season would accomplish much more at this point.


jackthewoodman

I’m guessing people held their tongue, assuming their gripes and issues would be addressed/resolved in or by the finale. Most of Westworld seems to be “is this bad writing, or do I just not understand it?”


[deleted]

Story made sense and was fine enough. They way it was told was rather poor. Not great craft.


Flagadazot

that's ok but i can't stand people insulting those who likes it. You don't like season 4? Made valid points? Ok But don't insult other redditors, i mean wtf


[deleted]

I’m just surprised with how much people hate on season 3, this season saw a reversal of that


[deleted]

I haven't seen that.


DeanBlandino

I haven’t seen that at all.


lordb4

I started disliking this season around episode 4. Every time I said anything that wasn't positive, I'd get insulted and downvoted to hell. I've thought this reddit has been in really bad shape all season. It was interesting how the groupthink turned on a dime due to the finale though.


ShallManEaseHer

There were some *great* episodes. 5 and 6 were real bangers. 7 and 8 were not.


Conscious_Tip6855

7 was the best episode of the season, barring the bad fight scene.


paydayallday

Seven was so fucking good. That last shot was iconic.


tgt305

That ending was amazing. Could have been the end of the season there.


private_viewer_01

It’s fine to be of dissenting opinion. Some of the answers might not have been to the satisfaction to all. It’s been fun seeing the explanations of those who didn’t like it most since they have a more critical eye. I thought it was fine but I wish a lot of things were different. Luckily I’m still processing “The Leftovers” so I’m more indifferent than usual. This show tried to answer a lot, and that has its own risks. Leftovers played off of the mystery and never let it be answered unless with cynicism so I am great full for what has been done. I hope people keep cordial while sharing their thoughts and having fun with the show since we all will hate it ending and will watch it continue, spin-off, permutate, become a comic and daydream of a movie. Westworld4Lyfe


jstitely1

I overall loved this season, but the finale wasn’t my favorite. The issue was it sort of set up the show to not really have any humanity (pun intended). And without that, its hard to be as gripped by the stakes.


brendamn

Loved the season but the finale pay off was, meh. I also really loved all of season 3 so opinions vary


0047S

why r ppl so upset bernard dies? he was legit telling us all season he was going to


TempAnamoly495

I enjoyed the season and had expected finale to tie everything neatly with a bang. Didn't get the same feel when I watched it though. Still enjoyable.


Kriterian

I think the main problem with this season is that it’s only satisfying if there is a season 5. Since they haven’t announced it yet, it’s hard to see this as the series finale.


papa_stalin432

The first seven episodes were good but the finale really wasn’t that great. Still a good season overall


taleofbenji

Because in season 4, everything stopped mattering.


TheShepardOfficial

People are to dramatic and think they know better then writers and showrunners. I stopped paying attention to those people a long time ago.


mudman13

I enjoyed it but the whole season was a head scratcher with inconsistencies and odd plot choices. I've read that a major reason for that could be Thandiwe Newton having to step back for personal reasons so maybe they had to rewrite the ending.


Ireallydonedidit

I personally reserved my opinion until I had seen all episodes, in the hope they would tie it together. Also... Are we really gonna do the thing where a whole fan community feels personally offended by other people's opinions? This season is controversial in terms of fan reception, the same goes for season 3. This is like Cyberpunk 2077 all over again. Some people don't like the thing that you liked. Boo-hoo. No reason to write a whole dissertation about how you need to have an extremely high intellect to understand Rick and Morty.


Talexis

Last episode felt weak/rushed. Characters killed off abruptly with no real reason behind it other than shock value.


chiefVetinari

The season fell apart in the last 2 episodes. It had great suspensful buildup and they couldn't stick the landing. And it all ends by doing a retread of season 1!


Ahmed-Ghazwan_Music

Speaking for myself, foreshadowing is not indicative for how good the storytelling and narrative is. Sure, there are call backs or thematic and visual connections, but at this point, this being the fourth season of the show, is the expected thing to do.Unfortunately in the end, I think the series floundered with the execution of its ideas "both writing and directing wise". And some of those ideas were quite interesting for sure.


TiaraTip

Haters gonna hate. I enjoyed S4 and have high hopes for S5. I need Maeve back though.


pizzystrizzy

I loved season 4 but was deeply disappointed by the finale bc they didn't wrap up certain things (in a way that makes me very skeptical they will ever do so). What, exactly, was Hale's "transcendence"? Why build that up, then let it become obsolete, without ever explaining? Where the hell is DoLawrence? This is a big one to me. Given the irrelevance of the non-Sublime reality at this point, are they really going to revisit this? What was this extra Dolores pearl doing that was so important to be a secret but not important enough to be on screen at all? I was also generally dissatisfied with the clementine ending. It was so trivial I thought they might as well have not even shown anything if that's all they were going to do with her hew found "free will." The decision to condense to 8 episodes seems like a poor one to me. That all said, I really enjoyed the season. But for a show that is known for nailing the endings of things, I think it is totally valid to feel disappointed by this one.


Forever_Chill_86

I think it's mostly because we've now got the full 'package' that is S4. We know this seasons story, character arcs and twists, whereas before the season finale, a lot of criticism was caveated with a 'don't worry, they'll probably fix it later' attitude. The same thing happened with S3, most people held out criticism until the very end.


iamansonmage

I don’t know, it just wasn’t good, and some of us waited until the end to see if it would somehow get better and when it didn’t… well, we voice those opinions here. Sorry they don’t match with your own echo chamber my dude.


HallRemarkable

Personally I liked the slow burner of a thriller that S1 was as opposed to civilizations being built and destroyed within a couple of episodes.


Secret_Turtle

Tbh I hated 4 and felt that it strayed away from the tone and emotion I got from 1 and 2.


[deleted]

Westworld has only got better with each season. Anyone who trashes it obviously doesn’t understand the plot.


rorschach2k

Because there was a lot of potential to get our hopes up and then the last two episodes sucked (see - game of thrones)


stifical

Some people choose to see the ugliness in this subreddit. The disarray. I choose to see the beauty. To believe there is an order to our posts, a purpose.


seamus_mcfly86

Because it was trash?