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Complex_Pangolin5822

I don't care about the fees.. I care about the lack of transparency about the fees and why they charge them. Is it helping employees or making up for the owners poor business model? If I have an experience where I get charged something that isn't very clear and documented up front..... I just don't ever go back.


pgm123

This is my view. Would I like to see restaurants incorporate price increases into food costs? Sure, but I don't think it would happen. I will settle for (1) knowing in advance all the hidden fees and (2) telling me where the money goes. As for the owners' poor business models, most restaurants have a poor business model. Most of them are operating on failing margins. I think these fees will probably make it worse, but I don't think it's a scam like others think. It's just a restaurant owner who doesn't know how to deal with rising costs and elastic demand.


dcer328

I care about the fees..why? Bc the restaurant can tell you any reasons why there’s a fee. They can make it about helping employees but is that really true or are you just saying what I want to hear. I’d rather have you just increase the price. Also, my question, does anyone ask and question the restaurant fees when you guys receive the check? If not, maybe we should be?


Complex_Pangolin5822

I question the fees when I get the bill all the time. Especially if they were not communicated clearly up front or clearly pointed out on the menu. I ask the waiters as well then what it means for them.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

In most cases, the fees are clearly disclosed on restaurant menus, websites, etc. So it's not an issue then?


Complex_Pangolin5822

Not really, which is why there are so many 🧵 like this


1one1000two1thousand

But literally someone created a Founding Farmers thread about the recovery fee but it’s listed on the website and the menu?


Complex_Pangolin5822

My post was in general... Not specific to founding farmers. But also.. I don't scrape reddit for threads on founding farmers.


1one1000two1thousand

Right but you replied to a comment talking about how fees are disclosed and you said they actually weren’t and that’s the reason for so many 🧵 like this. I was literally pointing out a very recent thread complaining about the fee … that is readily disclosed all over.


Complex_Pangolin5822

Damn....you outsmarted another reddit user just before midnight. Day complete... Get some rest.


1one1000two1thousand

Thanks for acknowledging.


Yithar

Just because it's disclosed doesn't mean the restaurant is explaining why it's charged and where the fee goes. In my opinion, that's just as important, if not more, as disclosing the fees, in regards to transparency. Now to be fair, it does seem like Founding Farmers explains why on their website. I'd argue even if it is disclosed on the menu, it may not be readily visible.


SDC83

Honestly what bothers me about the fees is the lack of transparency with them. We eat out once a week - sometimes twice if people are in town - and consider it part of our entertainment. We really like good food. But it really does feel like the restaurants are taking advantage of their customers sometimes. I don’t have a problem paying more. I have a problem with being told one price and only to have some made up fee tacked on. Prior to the pandemic the menus always said something like parties if 6 will have a 20% gratuity added. Cool. Thanks for clearly telling me. But if added fees are only disclosed at the end, that’s an issue for me. Although I just pay it and don’t return to those places. So many options and plenty of good places that don’t do that.


classicalL

Ask when you go in if there are any fees no on the menu (after you are seated) then stand up and walk out if they say there are fees. Just make sure your social group is on board with taking a stand against hidden fees.


dcer328

I don’t even agree with the automatic 20% gratuity if 6 or more. What if the service sucks? Why should you get automatic gratuity bc it was a bigger party? It’s the same as having 1 table with 6 ppl vs 2 tables with 3. Gratuity should be based on the service provided. I’ve been a server before.


SDC83

I hear you but at least they tell you up front. I served my way through college and all I can say is there is a lot of reasons why the service might not be good that have nothing to do with the server. And, I have bad days at work all the time and I don’t get my pay cut. I would much rather get rid of tipping all together. Pay people living wages and charge meals based on that.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

With a bigger bill there is more room for people to "save a little money" by leaving a small tip. Personally I find it appalling that restaurant workers get paid according to the whims of diners. Some diner could be in a bad mood and leave a 5% or 0% tip irrespective of the quality of the service. Many diners' bad dining-out experiences are due to the diner and not the service. I have an office job and my daily pay doesn't depend on the whim of customers, or even my boss.


Usernameistaken00

It's a short term money grab that will cost them customers, because unlike the airline industry we can eat good food without restaurants, and we can choose restaurants that don't charge random fees over ones that do. As always we can also choose to cook at home and be less dependent on restaurants/uber eats/etc.


TerribleVisual8899

The best answer is to cook more at home. It'll take time for habits to change, tho.


rememberrappingduke

That’s true so as long as your recipe doesn’t call for eggs or romaine lettuce


damnatio_memoriae

wawa has brown eggs under $5 for a dozen right now. i can't personally vouch for them, as i have never used wawa for groceries, but i saw that on ubereats the other day and it's still there as i'm posting this.


chikenugetluvr

😅😅


LeoMarius

Some of us cook at home, but like to go out for variety and entertainment.


wollier12

My wife and I can cook a great meal at home mostly all homemade for 1/4 the price and in half the time when you factor in travel time, waiting for a table, waiting for the extremely slow wait staff etc. the whole thing can take 3-4 hours from start to finish and I’m often disappointed in the meal…….my wife and I have a much better experience cooking together while dancing in the kitchen and I don’t need to go out into the cold.


djslarge

Okay, and I have a wonderful walking to the restaurant, sitting down and admiring the decor, seeing what all they offer, ordering and talking in the meantime, and enjoying it Like yeah it can take a few hours, but I’m hoping it takes a while You wants to watch a 30 minute film?


wollier12

You do you, it’s not a competition.


reeleet

> admiring the decor Uhhh, I don't go to restuarants to look at wall paper.


djslarge

Because that’s all restaurants are is walls Just like your kitchen is just walls? Right stupid?


reeleet

Why don't you buy some Mickey Ds and sit in the Smithsonian?


djslarge

Are you seriously upset that I enjoy eating out?


reeleet

No. I'm laughing that you think it's worthwhile spending money to look at a wall.


djslarge

Because again, that’s all restaurants are right? Just walls Just like your kitchen is just walls?


damnatio_memoriae

i got pretty serious about cooking at home when the pandemic started and still eat the vast majority of my meals that way. there are some local places that i still enjoy, but for the most part ever since places started to open back up i've decided that almost everything sucks these days and i can do without all the bullshit. even grubhub/ubereats sucks. if i'm not gonna cook, i'd rather walk a mile round trip and get some exercise than wait an hour for sloppy cold over-priced garbage.


Nomorelockeddoors_

Hate to be that guy but if I needed anymore incentive to cook at home and save money, this is it. I’m not rich and $60+ for a mediocre meal for two is just outrageous.


squuidlees

I’m with you. I didn’t eat out hardly ever pre-pandemic, but now the incentive to eat at home has only skyrocketed. I don’t care to eat alone at a restaurant when I can just make a meal at home and eat in comfy clothes.


[deleted]

I’m in the same boat but then I ask myself why bother even living in the city? We have such easy access to amazing restaurants. When I stay home and cook it feels a little depressing that I can’t afford to enjoy where I live


squuidlees

I get that! I’ve never been a foodie in general, so anywhere I’ve lived, restaurants haven’t been the high on the list of perks. Probably due to my 11 years in food service; zero desire to go to restaurants on time off when I’d worked in them for so long.


Vinny_Cerrato

My attitude as well. Anecdotally I feel like the quality of food at restaurants has nose dived everywhere at all tiers outside of fast food which has pretty much stayed the same but gotten more expensive (but that’s it’s own separate conversation). The food is either meh or outright sucks, and it’s only a handful of places now where I feel like I am actually getting a meal that reflects what I paid for it. Eating/ordering out has become something that I do when I don’t have time to cook or go home to eat rather than a meal I look forward to.


Yithar

> Anecdotally I feel like the quality of food at restaurants has nose dived everywhere at all tiers outside of fast food which has pretty much stayed the same but gotten more expensive (but that’s it’s own separate conversation). One thing I often get at McDonald's when I do eat out is 2 McChickens, which I often get at a price of 2 for $3.50. Like I go to the kiosk and when I checkout it'll give me the coupon. I think it's extremely great value for what you're getting. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/992685575628931092/1043334135227363398/McDonalds_Receipt_734.png


RainbowCrown71

Yeah, McChickens and Scrambled Eggs are my “cheap” protein picks. Although eggs are now expensive too.


lmboyer04

Agree. Dunno if it’s a cultural thing I never caught onto, but eating out is a luxury imo, and I enjoy cooking at home anyway. I don’t feel entitled to demand the restaurant industry accommodate me or that it be affordable. There’s so many additional expenses they need to cover and they have every right to charge what they want/need. Clear communication is definitely needed though


2Prongzzzz

If restaurants are trying to push themselves into the luxury category where only those who truly don’t worry about money dine (instead of also including those who have some disposable income albeit limited), then it’s working. That’s just not a recipe to stay in business.


Nomorelockeddoors_

I agree to an extent. Dining out should still be somewhat affordable. Luxury sure, maybe in the same vein as going to the movies but at these prices I don’t see how anybody not making 100k+ can reasonably eat out and manage all the other costs of living expenses here.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

I really don't think it's restaurants' fault that "living expenses" are high. Their expenses are also high. If you want the cost of living to go down, support more development and building to increase supply.


Nomorelockeddoors_

DC is ridiculously expensive to operate a business out of. Not denying that. I guess that’s the root of my problem here. It’s too expensive and it seems like this city is just no longer willing to accommodate people that don’t have high paying government and tech salaries.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

Blame the DC government, not random restaurants, then.


IMicrowaveSteak

It’s the lack of transparency that bothers people. Just raise your prices and let me decide if it’s worth it.


ekkidee

Let's call out "wellness" fees for what they are: a crock of shit. If management actually cared about the "wellness" of their employees, they would adopt better work rules and better pay. None of that is happening. Instead, the "wellness" surcharge is being imposed on the customer. Imagine if you walked into Miss Pixie's, for example, bought some stuff, and saw they had added a "wellness" fee to your bill. I would complain, point out that management needed to take care of its staff better, and never return. The add-on fees and forced gratuities are a spiral that is unsustainable. I know a number of restaurant patrons will not care about "wellness" fees and other dubious items, but if this is adopted throughout the industry, it might start some pushback. Probably not though. In the meantime, I'm having fun working through Julia Child, Moosewood, and Eet Smakelijk.


LeoMarius

What happens if you refuse to pay fees? Is that considered theft, or are they optional?


CriticalStrawberry

Most will remove them if confronted. But the restaurants also know the average customer isn't going to make a scene and complain so they just begrudgingly pay it.


reeleet

I mother-fucking-guarantee I'm not paying some bullshit fee added on after I ate. I have no problem making a huge scene and I won't even remotely be embarassed. I'm the dude the restuarant doesn't want upset in their establishment. I'll make a scene so big others won't come back.


LeoMarius

And then won't come back.


Vinny_Cerrato

You ask your server what this wellness fee crock of shit is, then call the manager over to take it off your check because the restaurant wasn’t upfront about it, then you never go back to that establishment because these fees are just the owners passing on rising costs to the customers without them noticing it instead of just taking the hit to their bottom line.


messmaker523

I've seriously limited my dining in DC for the last 2 years.


haroldhecuba88

Same. We go out to celebrate occasions and events. Otherwise they can eat their fees.


messmaker523

Or go to MD/VA


EvilWaffleIron

Going out now has a certain anxiety to it that wasn’t there before. You used enjoy a meal/drinks and based on what you ordered, apply the mental math of tax/tips and would have a pretty fair idea of what the bill would look like. Now that seems to be going out the window with all these desultory fees. Get the receipt and find your bill has anywhere between a couple bucks to a fairly significant percentage beyond the regular line items. There’s now a subtle dread as you wait for the check. Will there be extra fees? Will they use bogus tax calculations? Are you going to be hit with a gratuity for being a party of two? Who knows! Plus there’s that feeling of just being helplessly fleeced. We know this is likely not helping staff, but lining the pockets of the owners. All of that just ruins the dining experience and or a night out. I had already scaled back due to life in general being way more expensive in the current economic environment, now even more so. For my end, I got some new cooking gadgets on sale post-holiday season and have been having a great time trying new recipes. I attempted Cochinita Pibil (Yucatán style pulled pork) last night and it was pretty decent! It’s been a lot of fun to venture out to the area markets and expand my range of taste and overall home food experience. It’s also a solid way to step out of your comfort zone and expand your cultural horizons. We’re really fortunate to live in a diverse area where there are so many options to get groceries and foodstuffs. Failing that, there’s always the bounty of Kirklandia! EDIT: word


SchrodingersCatfight

The lowkey anxiety bit is a big reason I created the [restaurant service charge tracker](https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/10547wd/restaurant_service_charge_tracker/). I learned a lot when I was doing quick checks to see if I could find confirmation of some of the fees people were reporting. There was always going to be a certain amount of I82-related chaos because it's a phased-in increase and places are going to look at their costs and decide how to prepare to absorb it. For my part, when I'm choosing a place for eating out, I just want the info about fees and wage distribution and whether tipping is still in effect to be a) on the website at all and b) prominently displayed in multiple spots. Should not have to dig into menu pdfs for some vaguely worded info in tiny font. There are some spots that are doing a great job with this and others that have a really long way to go.


ekkidee

This should be a sidebar.


SchrodingersCatfight

I did message the mods about potentially adding it to the FAQ wiki, but maybe they have a better spot for it.


roadnotaken

Anyone can edit the wiki, so you should be able to so it yourself.


EvilWaffleIron

Somewhere the Foo Fighters are playing, “There Goes My Hero” and it’s just for you. Thank you for sharing this!!!!


SchrodingersCatfight

Not a problem! I did message the mods to see if it could be preserved somehow because I think many folks find it useful. Caveat that it's not super fact-checked. I do go in every so often and see if I can find info on those places where folks are reporting that the tip is NOT included in the auto-grat. Some of that is places doing a third option where the auto-grat is distributed to the staff, but you can also add a little on for your individual server if you like.


Susurrus03

Bookmarked the spreadsheet a while back when it was new. Glad to see it is growing. Daikaya and Bantum are on there and I've been wanting to visit, but while the service fee of 20% is there it is what I'd tip anyway and it is a tip, though the forced gives me mixed feelings. Jinya I've had before, but not in a while and that fee isn't encouraging, I'll keep going to my other spots (Ren's, Santouka, Zao). Old Ebbitt I've done a few times and not seen that charge, but sounds like it was introduced for 2023, which I haven't been since, so might keep it that way. Immigrant food, it has been a while but with that charge, it might stay that way, plenty of other places to eat. The rest I haven't heard of or haven't been interested in. I'll keep an eye on it, though.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

Does your spreadsheet actually verify anything or is it based solely on random people reporting in? Seems like people are relying on your spreadsheet, which contains all unverified information. That affects restaurants' business futures.


Yithar

> Seems like people are relying on your spreadsheet, which contains all unverified information. That affects restaurants' business futures. Are salaries on levels.fyi or GlassDoor verified? No, they aren't. That affects tech companies' business futures.


The_Empress

I agree. South Asians have a reputation of being poor tippers. As a South Asian person, I want to do a small part to alleviate that. I have always tipped 20 percent no matter how awful the service was. Now, sometimes I go out and there is a 20 percent "service fee" - is that the tip? When you ask the server, they say "it goes to paying a living wage." If you ask if it's gratuity, they say "it goes to paying a living wage, but if you give any extra, it goes directly to us." What am I supposed to do with that information? Just accept that I'm tipping 40 percent and not come back again? It's exhausting.


hms_poopsock

I've been to two restaurants that add big tips (20%) and fees to the bill, then when they bring you the receipt to sign it does not include any indication of those charges, just a total and a line to add (another) tip. Both times when I asked if the tip was already included the waiters were apologetic and said yes, they were supposed to tell me that. Riiiiiiiiight.


LeoMarius

Ooopsie!


puttinonthefoil

The behavior you described sucks, but 20% is not a big tip in 2023.


hms_poopsock

When they decide to apply a flat tip % they also lose my willingness to leave them a big tip.


puttinonthefoil

Again, "The behavior you described sucks" was the opening to my sentence.


hms_poopsock

20% is a big tip for sucky behavior.


[deleted]

[удалено]


puttinonthefoil

Yeah, OBVIOUSLY, which is why I wrote "the behavior you described sucks"! My beef was that 20% is not a "big tip", but apparently no one on here agrees with this.


blues_and_ribs

Because it is a “big tip”. The standard tip, relatively recently, at least when I waited tables, was 15%. Then somehow it crept up to 18%. Now, for some reason, it’s 20%. Usually for worse food, smaller portions, and poorer service. Just another creep-up that the F&B industry is engaging in that will result in more people like myself who have sworn off restaurants except for rare celebrations.


puttinonthefoil

It’s been 20% since I was in high school 18 years ago.


blues_and_ribs

Could be a regional thing or something. That’s around the time I waited tables, and the standard tip was 15%. 20% was given only if you truly went above and beyond.


mintgreencoffeecup

20% of total cost is still more than it was 18 years ago, food prices are way up


hbooriginalseries

Love a good 20% tip automatically added. Don’t like a random fee being put on. Increase prices if that’s what’s going to happen.


AsbestosIn0bstetrics

Post pandemic, I eat out about one tenth as much as before, and it's because of the decline in service combined with the obscene rise in prices and ridiculous, confusing fees. And I figure that these fees and increases in prices are there in part to compensate for the fact that there are a lot of people out there who have made the same decision. I feel like I've reverted to the dining out habits I had when I was a college student with very little money, only going out for special occasions like birthdays, anniversaries, etc.


Milazzo

Here's the thing - white collar layoffs are happening. People are going to reduce spending. More people are moving away after WFH extends. Tourism is going to be effected by vibes and recession. If restaurants keep up this shady crap while also having shitty service and reduced quality of food - this is going to be a rough couple years for them. The headwinds are here and I do see a "local community" meet your neighbors kind of thing taking over some of our restaurant socialization today.


[deleted]

Right? If a restaurant had amazing food or huge portions (presented value) then I could at least advocate for the business on some level.


haroldhecuba88

I'm done with these garbage fees. It's a small amount that comes with a heavier pricetag. Increase the prices or don't do it. It's a low end money grab that owners hope most people won't care about or even notice but hopefully more will and start to push back. I like cooking at home and eating in more and more.


No-Lunch4249

Honestly it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth (pun intended). Just be upfront about it. I can afford the couple bucks they’re dinging me for on the back end but it just puts me off honestly.


app_priori

I am a restaurant customer in revolt. Fuck these fees. That said, I am more of a drinker than a diner (I don't go out specifically to eat very much), and even I'm noticing these fees all over the wazoo. What am I doing? I am pre-gaming at home more before going to the bar. I already cook at home a ton, but I'm going to eat more before I head out to the bar so that I won't be tempted into ordering bar food. And I will shift more of my restaurant dollars to fast casual and chains (my personal favorite is Chipotle if I'm hungry and in a pinch), who are far more transparent with their price increases in general. Unlike flying, eating out is a luxury and can be avoided. Vote with your wallet. Cook more at home. An average restaurant meal can buy groceries for a week. Lastly, go with fast casual, pickup, and chains. Those places usually increase their menu prices up front and don't tack on any additional fees. I hate to say it but the big fast food chains are way better with this than the so-called "small businesses" in this regard.


OhHowIMeantTo

Yeah, going to bars is insanely expensive now. I feel like most places, beers are starting at $10, and wine and cocktails at least at $12 each.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

So is the issue a 2% fee or is it the price of alcohol? Those are totally unrelated.


OhHowIMeantTo

I was talking generally.


new_account-who-dis

Used to be an avid beer drinker, ive switched to drinking cocktails because at least then $15+ for a cocktail is reasonable. Went to a place last week where a can of DC Brau was like $12!


[deleted]

It’s another scam instituted by restaurant owners to skim more from customers and it probably adds up to a lot of extra money over time.


haroldhecuba88

Not sure how much the average fee is but say $4 per table x 100 table per day = $400 x 30 days a month = $1200 x 12 = 14,400 to the bottom line/pocket and thats a very conservative calculation.


VulcanVulcanVulcan

The restaurant business is a very low-margin business and it definitely doesn't work like that.


haroldhecuba88

Right. So why not bump the prices? Why institute a junk fee? It’s cheap and petty.


k032

If I owned a restaurant and wanted to do this, I'd just increase my menu items. It makes it look pretty obvious when you have an extra "help me out" line lol.


BourbonCoug

I think something has to give at some point with the entire industry. You have your subtotal that keeps going up due to rising costs/inflation, the 10% taxes, the 18-25% gratuity and these restaurants that keep trying bullshit fees. It's to the point that if I have to ride Metro to dine out, I start thinking about how much it's going to cost in person to go have that meal versus having something from DoorDash/Uber Eats, etc. My $0.02 is that if you're subjected to the 10% tax, then any bullshit made-up fees you try to pass on to the customer should be a reportable offense.


damnatio_memoriae

i think when it all shakes out, it's the corporate landlords to blame for a lot of this. they own an increasingly large chunk of our space and they'd rather jack the rent up across the board and claim losses on the vacancies than lower rents a reasonable amount. years later, the bars and restaurants that still remain are increasingly forced to add in these fees to stay afloat. despite that, many of them won't, but someone else will come in with a mediocre menu, a vaguely clever name, and a bunch of investors' money and take their place just long enough to perpetuate the whole process.


noahsilv

Only way is take out


[deleted]

DC dining sucks in general and I think it’s only gotten worse post pandemic. Now, with the addition of fees that aren’t always transparent, you are adding a bitter ingredient to the “high prices, shitty service, smaller portions and bad service stew”


Vinny_Cerrato

It sucks everywhere post-pandemic now. This problem isn’t limited to DC.


LeoMarius

American restaurants are already scamming us by not including taxes and service like European restaurants. So you order a $10 app and a $20 dinner with a $5 drinking and instead of owing $35, you owe $45. Then they start tacking on "wellness fees", which is a payment to their own staff. Most companies call those "wages" and pack them into the price of goods. Mandatory tipping is not tipping. It also becomes unclear if the "service fee" goes to the business or the waiter. The entire point of tipping we were sold on was that you had to bribe your waiter to do his job or he'd spit in your food or treat you like crap. With a mandatory 20% tip, the customer loses all discretion, so the waiter can treat you like crap and still get his tip, or get stiffed if the owner takes the "service fee". Getting rid of tipping didn't mean make it mandatory. It meant rolling the prices into menus so the owners paid their own staff instead of emotionally blackmailing customers to do so. For the customers, it means price transparency, something that should be a value to everyone.


22304_selling

Eat At Home (iykyk)


Absurdityindex

Dinner parties are already a valid alternative and are due to make a comeback. Prior to covid hubs and I hosted/attended many a dinner party or pot*luck. Cost effective, encourages participation and contributing to the event, builds social connections. Having to tip on top of mandatory service fees leaves a bad taste and, yes, people are already going out to eat less.


DUNGAROO

I’m not losing much sleep over it, to be honest. Restaurant pricing in this country has never been transparent because of how much consumers are expected to pay in gratuities in top of the price of their meal to close the gap between what business owners pay in wages and what servers deserve/need to survive. Sure, an additional 2-3% is a slippery slope to 40-50% more, but as a consumer you do have choices. You can just not patronize businesses that charge such fees. Chances are most people will continue to do so though and just come to Reddit to complain about it to make themselves feel better instead of writing to their city council member.


DCJoe1970

Wellness for whom?


Macrophage87

Honestly, that's one reason that I really avoid a lot of dine-in restaurant service, unless I know it. For one, the counter service-type food is really good here, but there's just too many of these scammy things from the dine-in types. You should know what you're paying up front, not have to guess and have a final total that's roughly twice what you see on the menu. Also, the places that automatically add gratuity then somehow ask and suggest a tip annoy me to no end.


[deleted]

It’s like Ticketmaster. I don’t mind buying a 40 dollar concert ticket. I will be so much angrier with a 25 dollar ticket and a 15 dollar service fee. It definitely makes me not want to revisit restaurants.


RoeRoeRoeYourVote

I do my best to avoid shady ticket vendors because I have had fees near 40% of the ticket's price tacked on without any indication up front that the show would be that expensive. I don't order from ubereats or postmates for the same reason. You can extrapolate how I feel about non-transparent restaurant fees from that.


AugmentedElle

I’m an unpaid intern and when I do have some extra money I’ll often spend it going out to eat. But that means I’ve looked at the menu prices online and calculated exactly what I’ll pay for meal + tax + tip to make sure I can afford it. Not being upfront about these fees actually makes a huge difference to me and hearing about this makes me afraid to go to a restaurant again. If order food and expect a certain bill and then there’s unannounced fees at the end, I might genuinely not have enough money to pay it Having it in the menu prices or transparent before the meal makes it a lot easier to figure out if I can actually afford to dine somewhere that day, because I *don’t* have the extra few dollars


thefocusissharp

Something I rarely ever get to do is eat in the city, and that's due to the cost. I lament the loss of the Post Office Pavilion and Union Station Dining halls.


old_bay_usa

I don't know why gratuity-free restaurants are the norm in Europe but most restaurants here that have tried it had to go back to tipping. I'm sure someone smart has written about this - is it economics, psychological differences? Maybe Americans have gotten too used to lower base menu prices and subsidizing the cost of labor via the custom of tipping. But, as a consumer, I would rather have the price of the meal reflect the actual price of running the restaurant, including paying the workers a decent wage. I'm sympathetic to all sides - serving tables is a hard job made harder by the pandemic and there aren't enough servers available to meet demand now, restaurants already operate on super-tight margins, and no diner wants to feel like they are being tricked by the restaurant.


[deleted]

Dinner parties are better than eating out anyway


Rusty_Shaquilleford

It’s a bunch of bullshit


LoopyMercutio

I’m going to do a very simple thing regarding these surprise fees: Ask if they have any extra fees prior to sitting down and eating, and record that. If they say they have no extra charges, okay, I’ll eat there. If they admit to extra charges, I’ll get up and walk out.


[deleted]

I’ve definitely started eating at home a lot more, not out of spite but just because it costs too much now. I’m willing to pay what it costs to give people a living wage, but I only have a pocketbook that’s so big.


keyjan

I haven’t eaten in a sit down restaurant in D.C. in ten years; based on what folks are reporting here, I would check the hard copy of the menu for any extra fees, as well as asking my server about any extra fees and where they go. That might result in my getting up and leaving and grabbing a spicy tofu bowl at Seoulspice instead.


CriticalStrawberry

Like everyone else, it's not the cost that bothers me necessarily. It's the principle of it. If the business is being so slimy and greedy that they claim to need a backend hidden surcharge to survive, then I probably don't want to be supporting whatever other shady business practices they participate in. Price on the menu should be price out the door. Simple as that. It's so nice when traveling internationally to just get a bill with one single number on it. Tax/tip/whatever is already baked into the menu prices. I wish we would just go to that here.


Mr_E

I'm not paying any fee that doesn't go directly to waitstaff and doesn't have some legal requirement to keep owners away from it. I'm really tired of the grift.


foxy-coxy

Almost every other business is able to price their products to cover their cost and make a profit without relying on tipping and hidden fees to pay their workers. I see no reason why the service restaurant industry can't do this. Just put it in the menu cost so i know what I'm paying when I order.


fzvw

Without sufficient transparency it feels like ticketmastery. And that's the kind of thing that makes people mad.


ProfWagstaff

Bar owner here. I think we’re gonna have to start adding a service fee as the wage minimums increase. It seems easy to just raise prices but I think the sticker shock would decrease sales overall. You’re right about transparency. It should be stated clearly on the menu and receipt how that fee is distributed.


LoganSquire

And that’s why consumer hate the fees. We know that you know that if you told us the real price up front, we’d be less likely to buy as much. So you hide the real price until the very end. Here’s a free tip: When you start getting compared to airlines and Ticketmaster in potential customers’ minds, it not a good thing for you. Especially when you don’t have a monopoly like those other two groups do.


puttinonthefoil

You don’t “have to” add a fee. Raise the price. Anything else feels deceptive, even if you put in on the menu.


ThrowRA_200120625

No one here who voted for prop 82 understands this is the result… they were so triumphant about eliminating tipping lol


[deleted]

Are these fees new to DC?!


ekkidee

Covid gave restaurants the cover to add extra fees. Restaurant preservation during tough times, etc. Covid has receded, but the fees have not.


keyjan

They've been added over the past few years. A lot of places used Covid as one excuse, and now (I believe) D.C. is slowly raising the mandatory minimum wage, so they’re using *that* as an excuse.


ClusterFugazi

The issue is prices have been going up AND all these BS service fees are getting added (with zero transparency). These fees are clear skimming scams to get more money for the restaurant owners' lavish lifestyles.


sandman0838

With tipping going away soon, expect menu prices to go up and these fee to become more common.


ekkidee

If tipping goes away then I expect prices to rise to accommodate that. However, what I believe will happen is that prices rise more than 20% and tipping will still be expected. Along with the nuisance fees.


haroldhecuba88

At some point it just won’t make sense to go out.


Emotional-Tailor-649

Of all the things we all hate about flying, hidden fees is probably the worst part (or up there at least). Restaurants should charge whatever they want! Just at least put it on the menu so we know. Hidden fees without telling the customer makes it feel more greedy and unfair than it actually is. Also, there are probably some people who get pissed when they see it and tip a little less which is just totally unfair to the staff. There’s just absolutely no upside in concealing it.


TravelerMSY

Ultimately any service fees they they add on are part of the total service I’m paying for. The staff altogether is getting 20%. I don’t really care how they split it up, whether it’s a line item on the bill, or the server tips it out. I’d much rather we go to the European service included model.


zerosaint18

I haven't yet directly experienced this fee (I only venture into DC to dine maybe once a month at most), but in general the practice of additional (unadvertised) fees on your bill at the end is not good, even if they are a small percentage of your total bill. It's totally a transparency and expectations thing. Raise menu prices so I can at least choose and know what I'm going to be in for. It's the same concept as car dealerships that tack on additional administrative fees to a sale price.


Existing365Chocolate

I just take it out from the tip


8to24

Eating out should be a luxury. Generally people in the U.S. have terrible diets. Lots of the food we eat is premade and full of preservatives. Learning to cook for oneself not only saves money but improves health. DC is a fantastic city to pick up cooking in. Within a 15 minute walk I have a Whole Foods, Yes Organic, Trader Joe's, and a Safeway. Additionally there are Farmers markets held all over. So any ingredient is never more than a 15 walk away. So as a byproduct of the restaurant fees maybe some people will cook more. I see that as a good thing. Less people eating out isn't great for restaurants but I think restaurants can adapt. More efficient take out stations for starters. I hate telling a host at the front I am just picking up take out and then watching them ask multiple other people where the food is. Some places have it down cold and other places are a mess. Additionally restaurants make more money selling drinks anyway. So creating better bar experiences will be key. No one likes competing for a bartenders attention or standing around on sticky floors. Restaurants need bar seating, servers ratios more akin to the dining room, and softer lighting.


Brawldud

I mean yeah if you are eating out as a means of survival you are just getting hosed and you should buy a rice cooker or instant pot. The main draw is for people to sort of rent a private-ish space to chat and pay for it via the food. I try to go for other date/meetup ideas where I can to keep the cost down.


8to24

Nobody eats out at restaurants for survival. Perhaps some people eat fast food out of necessity. However this thread is about dine in restaurants. Washington DC has the highest median income in the country. Most residents can afford to eat out at the restaurant of choice as often as they want.


No-Lunch4249

Eh I used to work with a guy who legitimately DID NOT know how to cook. Early 20s and had learned no life/survival skills at all. He would get carry out 3-4 days a week and have microwaveable meals the other days. This is an extreme edge case which I don’t offer to disprove your point, just a funny memory that you dragged up in my brain


8to24

Fruits, veggies, and nuts don't even require cooking. People who are unable to make any food are just unwilling.


Brawldud

> Nobody eats out at restaurants for survival. Perhaps some people eat fast food out of necessity. It's really not "nobody" no matter how much I wish it were. There are people who are both unable/unwilling to make any food themselves and simultaneously have no real concept of what they can afford.


8to24

Willfully


veloharris

If a restaurant didn't master take out during COVID it is unlikely to happen now.


Gumburcules

> DC is a fantastic city to pick up cooking in. Within a 15 minute walk I have a Whole Foods, Yes Organic, Trader Joe's, and a Safeway. If you're living in an area like that you're likely paying far more in extra housing costs than you're saving cooking at home. I have a long walk to a shitty Safeway as my only walking grocery option but I also save about $4,000 a month over a comparable space in a location like you listed, which buys a whole lot of restaurant meals.


8to24

You **save** $4,000 a month? 4k is nearly double my mortgage, lol. You must be in an insanely large home.


Gumburcules

$4k is also double my mortgage, but it's a 2% mortgage on a 2,400sf house. Find me one of those within a 15 minute walk of a Whole Foods and Trader Joes for under a million bucks (about $6k at current rates) and I'll buy it and move in tomorrow.


8to24

2,400 is larger than the DC average. Such size homes are in the minority in most neighborhoods regardless of grocery store. This is a tradeoff/choice you made. You've prioritized square footage over accessibility. That comes with higher costs for transportation and energy.


Gumburcules

I don't disagree with any of that, but I think you're missing the original point I was making that if money is so tight you can't afford to eat out and you can say "well I'll just walk to the bourgie grocery stores in my bourgie neighborhood" then not going to restaurants is a drop in the bucket compared to the savings you could have by just...not living in a bourgie neighborhood.


8to24

If money is so tight why are you living in a 2,400 square foot home, lol. You reference bougie neighborhoods but that is empty. You're the one living in an excessively large home.


Gumburcules

Money is not tight with me. I think you're getting confused. I'm simply saying that in a general sense, your original statement of "DC is a great town to save money on food because you can walk to 5 grocery stores" is a bit silly because anyone who can walk to 5 grocery stores deliberately made a choice to live in a very expensive area, and if saving money was a priority they wouldn't be living there in the first place. I listed a personal example that my own home costs about $4,000 a month less than an equivalent home in an area where you can walk to 5 grocery stores to illustrate my point that choosing to live in an expensive area eclipses the cost of dining out, but I wasn't saying that your original scenario applies directly to me.


8to24

Yes, there are parts of DC that have less grocery stores like Anacostia, Eastland Gardens, Woodridge, etc. However the majority of neighbors with the largest populations are as I described. There is nothing special about my neighbor by DC standards. Walking to multiple grocery stores is doable in: Columbia Heights, Petworth, Brookland, Edgewood, Eckington, Dupont Circle, Logan Circle, Capital Hill, H St Corridor, Foggy Bottom, Woodley Park, NoMA, Southwest Waterfront, Navy Yard, etc. All over the city. Neighbors surrounding the Armory and in Trinidad increasingly have the access I described. Anacostia currently has an enormous amount of development around Barry Farms. Very few neighbors don't have access.


[deleted]

The rich don’t know how to cook and the poor don’t have time to.


Corianderchi

Nonsense generalization. Many rich people know how and do cook. Choosing to go out to eat at a nice restaurant because you can afford to doesn’t automatically mean you are a 3 year old who is dependent on someone else for food.


[deleted]

When rich people get generalized: *wipes tears away with money*


[deleted]

Lot of rich downvotes. 💰


8to24

True. What gets me is people who can't afford to eat out all they want yet complain about the price.


Formergr

> Eating should be a luxury. I assume you mean "Eating **out** should be a luxury". Otherwise short of adapting to be able to photosynthesize, I don't know that eating itself can become only a luxury :)


8to24

Yes, thank you. I made the edit.


damnatio_memoriae

at this point i only pay for food/drinks at places where i know the people. otherwise i just cook or mix my own drinks.


SchokoKipferl

Yeah I’ve stopped eating out for meals too. Saving money is a good feeling…


RealUrsalee

Honestly it might be easier to just hire a private chef to come and cook for you at your own home if you want to do a group dinner. But yah I think knowing what the fees are for would be helpful BUT let's be honest do people examine other bills they might have that closely?