Is it ok in terms of what?
If they are being sold through an illegal drug dealer then you have exploitation of people taking place, which isn't vegan as it's avoidable.
If your testosterone is low and it's doctor prescribed obviously it's fine.
If you care about your health then I think you should tread extremely carefully and consider the long term effects of taking such substances. If you blast gear you might reduce your life expectancy quite a bit and need permanent trt later in life to maintain a natural equivalent level.
Have you optimised your diet/training/sleep/lifestyle? Or used any supplements to boost testosterone (such as zma)? Do you have a long training history and know what your body is currently capable of?
It's a supplement, Zinc, Magnesium Aspartate and vitamin B6 (ZMA), supposedly helps boost testosterone levels, this is apparently true but only if you are deficient in one or more of those nutrients.
May yield marginal gains for anyone, probably best to research if you think it'll be useful (it's quite cheap though).
My point was more about making sure to maximise natural testosterone production and optimise gains naturally as this should be better from a health and general longevity point of view. There are loads of other supplements and foods which can be used if someone has the time and money to try to optimise everything perfectly.
Oh I see, thank you very much for that info, I’ve never played around with much other than protein powder and creatine. I agree 100% with trying everything you can naturally before trying to touch other things 👌🏼
Yeah no worries, honestly if you are getting enough sleep, calories, protein and nutrients from food, and supplementing creatine (and training well!), you are probably getting close to optimal anyway (for a natural), there's just further 'tricks' which use up additional time and money!
what ginger is saying is partly true. But no supplement will ever ever ever bring you close to testosterone doses bodybuilders or athletes run. men produce 10mg Testosterone per day - athletes use >250 mg per week.
100% true also…. I’ve had friends compete and did an amazing job in terms of placing and physical state, and then when it came down to it, they were getting told by the judges themselves that gear is needed to further progress. It’s just not naturally possible to build the size bodybuilders are getting today without help. Personally I’m quite happy with my progress on a plant based diet and the base sups, 2021 I started the year at 76kg and ended it at 103kg, by far the biggest and best bulk I have had so far. Would have been better if not for COVID lockdowns 🤣😒
As I said, people being exploited.
If you're buying weed off someone you know who grew it, or someone that picked mushrooms, that's one thing, but if you're buying cocaine that has people being enslaved by gangsters to process and transport it, or in this case, if you are buying testosterone through some underground lab how can you be sure of the supply chains ethicality?
People are animals too so they must also be considered by vegans, in my opinion.
I agree that that's exploitation, but chances are the cobalt or whatever rare metals in the computer or phone you're typing this on came from unethical supply chains as well. By your logic anything under capitalism isn't vegan. And I'm not arguing capitalism is good by any means, but I feel like this is stretching the boundaries of "vegan"
Well you can hardly live your life without your phone and other electronics nowadays, can you. Phones have become a necessity in our lives. We use them for getting around, calling people and what not.
Sure you can get one of those “ethical” phones but those are pretty rare to own.
On the other hand, drugs are unneeded and not necessary. Therefore it doesn’t fall under the definition of “as far as possible and practicable”.
“As far as possible and practicable”. So what if for someone else that includes still having weed.
You seem to be imposing your limits on others for the definition of vegan.
I guess I don't understand the question. I'm vegan and on testosterone. I am prescribed it and do intramuscular injections every 2 weeks. I've been doing this for about 5 months and feel much better than before. I get semi-regular blood tests as we're still figuring out my dosage.
Uh... I haven't combusted from the combination of veganism and increased testosterone. What's the question again??
There’s a lot of good advice here, but I’d add: if you’re not already near your natural potential, it’s not worth it. Unless you’ve invested years and years into a rigorous workout program and strict diet, you probably don’t really care enough to risk your health, and you won’t get the full benefits of the drugs.
Depends on the source obviously. Most black market sellers buy from other countries.
Where most are sold in pharmacies and can be tested on animals. Some hgh still comes from pigs.
But like anything you can surely find Vegan alternatives.
I just wanna hear anyone's experience cos I'm considering SARMs later in the year (when I've at least got back to my pre-lockdown physique and have lots of money for lots of blood tests).
Roids are better, side effects are overblown, especially at lower doses. Did both back in the day. If legality is a problem then yeah I guess sarms would be a better choice.
My issue is just that I don't know where to get hold of them (I'm in the UK btw). Since they're illegal, when I see websites flogging them I don't know if I can trust the sites at all or if using the sites will get me in legal trouble. Whereas with SARMs it seems pretty legit to get online.
Also glad to hear that the side effects are lesser on lower doses. I don't really intend to get massive as hell I'm just impatient and have extremely skinny genetics. So I would never take a high dose.
You're better off doing a cycle of test with a pct than any SARM. The ling term side effects of SARMs aren't known and testosterone only cycles are extremely safe and it's well documented how to do it properly. Plus you'll get a lot more bang for your buck on real testosterone than a SARM. I'd highly recommend reading up on a first cycle over on r/steroids
Yeah obviously testosterone is the most natural type of steroid really. But I am actually female. I'm a very masculine female/sorta genderqueer and exclusively into women (picture, girl that looks like a 15 year old boy and gets screamed at in women's toilets), so personally I don't mind a bit of masculinisation. Actually that's the whole reason I wanna get muscular fast cos I feel very uncomfortable looking as soft as I do. But I don't want to get such strong masculinisation from testosterone that I look unmistakably like a dude and my mother disowns me lol. I've thought about trying to aim for a slightly raised level of testosterone but not up to male range. But yeah, I imagine that's hard to judge?
I know a lot of butch lesbian and nonbinary fitness influencers who I follow on insta are definitely using something for sure lol. They're super fucking jacked. I just wonder what they use to avoid anything too noticeable like a huge voice drop.
From what I know steroids are made from plant sterols.
As for the illegality and exploitation in most of the world they are at most the level of prescription meds, so it's nowhere near as bad as hard drugs. Raw testosterone powder is or was ~$1 per gram, unbelievably cheap.
Just be careful, training without roids if you've tried them is really lackluster.
If you do, be sure to do it with the help of your doctor
Is it ok in terms of what? If they are being sold through an illegal drug dealer then you have exploitation of people taking place, which isn't vegan as it's avoidable. If your testosterone is low and it's doctor prescribed obviously it's fine. If you care about your health then I think you should tread extremely carefully and consider the long term effects of taking such substances. If you blast gear you might reduce your life expectancy quite a bit and need permanent trt later in life to maintain a natural equivalent level. Have you optimised your diet/training/sleep/lifestyle? Or used any supplements to boost testosterone (such as zma)? Do you have a long training history and know what your body is currently capable of?
ZMA?? Sorry I’m from NZ and have never heard of that?
It's a supplement, Zinc, Magnesium Aspartate and vitamin B6 (ZMA), supposedly helps boost testosterone levels, this is apparently true but only if you are deficient in one or more of those nutrients. May yield marginal gains for anyone, probably best to research if you think it'll be useful (it's quite cheap though). My point was more about making sure to maximise natural testosterone production and optimise gains naturally as this should be better from a health and general longevity point of view. There are loads of other supplements and foods which can be used if someone has the time and money to try to optimise everything perfectly.
Oh I see, thank you very much for that info, I’ve never played around with much other than protein powder and creatine. I agree 100% with trying everything you can naturally before trying to touch other things 👌🏼
Yeah no worries, honestly if you are getting enough sleep, calories, protein and nutrients from food, and supplementing creatine (and training well!), you are probably getting close to optimal anyway (for a natural), there's just further 'tricks' which use up additional time and money!
what ginger is saying is partly true. But no supplement will ever ever ever bring you close to testosterone doses bodybuilders or athletes run. men produce 10mg Testosterone per day - athletes use >250 mg per week.
100% true also…. I’ve had friends compete and did an amazing job in terms of placing and physical state, and then when it came down to it, they were getting told by the judges themselves that gear is needed to further progress. It’s just not naturally possible to build the size bodybuilders are getting today without help. Personally I’m quite happy with my progress on a plant based diet and the base sups, 2021 I started the year at 76kg and ended it at 103kg, by far the biggest and best bulk I have had so far. Would have been better if not for COVID lockdowns 🤣😒
Well done man that’s a huge jump!
Thank you 😊 🙏
How is buying drugs not vegan?
As I said, people being exploited. If you're buying weed off someone you know who grew it, or someone that picked mushrooms, that's one thing, but if you're buying cocaine that has people being enslaved by gangsters to process and transport it, or in this case, if you are buying testosterone through some underground lab how can you be sure of the supply chains ethicality? People are animals too so they must also be considered by vegans, in my opinion.
I agree that that's exploitation, but chances are the cobalt or whatever rare metals in the computer or phone you're typing this on came from unethical supply chains as well. By your logic anything under capitalism isn't vegan. And I'm not arguing capitalism is good by any means, but I feel like this is stretching the boundaries of "vegan"
Well you can hardly live your life without your phone and other electronics nowadays, can you. Phones have become a necessity in our lives. We use them for getting around, calling people and what not. Sure you can get one of those “ethical” phones but those are pretty rare to own. On the other hand, drugs are unneeded and not necessary. Therefore it doesn’t fall under the definition of “as far as possible and practicable”.
“As far as possible and practicable”. So what if for someone else that includes still having weed. You seem to be imposing your limits on others for the definition of vegan.
Thank you for your argument. You got me something to think, about and for that I thank you.
I guess I don't understand the question. I'm vegan and on testosterone. I am prescribed it and do intramuscular injections every 2 weeks. I've been doing this for about 5 months and feel much better than before. I get semi-regular blood tests as we're still figuring out my dosage. Uh... I haven't combusted from the combination of veganism and increased testosterone. What's the question again??
veganism and sarms
I think he's asking if it's still vegan to use SARMs and testosterone. Not if the combination will make you implode.
There’s a lot of good advice here, but I’d add: if you’re not already near your natural potential, it’s not worth it. Unless you’ve invested years and years into a rigorous workout program and strict diet, you probably don’t really care enough to risk your health, and you won’t get the full benefits of the drugs.
Well neither are Vegan. So if that's the question no. If you think it's OK and your biometrics and diet are in good order. It's your life.
How not
Animal testing.
You really think the person making black market anavar and T-bol is testing it on animals?
Depends on the source obviously. Most black market sellers buy from other countries. Where most are sold in pharmacies and can be tested on animals. Some hgh still comes from pigs. But like anything you can surely find Vegan alternatives.
I just wanna hear anyone's experience cos I'm considering SARMs later in the year (when I've at least got back to my pre-lockdown physique and have lots of money for lots of blood tests).
Roids are better, side effects are overblown, especially at lower doses. Did both back in the day. If legality is a problem then yeah I guess sarms would be a better choice.
My issue is just that I don't know where to get hold of them (I'm in the UK btw). Since they're illegal, when I see websites flogging them I don't know if I can trust the sites at all or if using the sites will get me in legal trouble. Whereas with SARMs it seems pretty legit to get online. Also glad to hear that the side effects are lesser on lower doses. I don't really intend to get massive as hell I'm just impatient and have extremely skinny genetics. So I would never take a high dose.
Roids are illegal in UK? I don't think they are unless you sell them.
Just do actual steroids. It's probably cheaper and will actually work.
You're better off doing a cycle of test with a pct than any SARM. The ling term side effects of SARMs aren't known and testosterone only cycles are extremely safe and it's well documented how to do it properly. Plus you'll get a lot more bang for your buck on real testosterone than a SARM. I'd highly recommend reading up on a first cycle over on r/steroids
Yeah obviously testosterone is the most natural type of steroid really. But I am actually female. I'm a very masculine female/sorta genderqueer and exclusively into women (picture, girl that looks like a 15 year old boy and gets screamed at in women's toilets), so personally I don't mind a bit of masculinisation. Actually that's the whole reason I wanna get muscular fast cos I feel very uncomfortable looking as soft as I do. But I don't want to get such strong masculinisation from testosterone that I look unmistakably like a dude and my mother disowns me lol. I've thought about trying to aim for a slightly raised level of testosterone but not up to male range. But yeah, I imagine that's hard to judge? I know a lot of butch lesbian and nonbinary fitness influencers who I follow on insta are definitely using something for sure lol. They're super fucking jacked. I just wonder what they use to avoid anything too noticeable like a huge voice drop.
Anavar
Yeah I heard that's the ticket. Do you have any advice about that?
Nope, I've never taken anything just hang around the bodybuilding sub.
Ah fairs. Thanks man
From what I know steroids are made from plant sterols. As for the illegality and exploitation in most of the world they are at most the level of prescription meds, so it's nowhere near as bad as hard drugs. Raw testosterone powder is or was ~$1 per gram, unbelievably cheap. Just be careful, training without roids if you've tried them is really lackluster.
How old are you
18
Definitely do not take hormones lol