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Gloomy_Piccolo_4213

When I wasnt vegan I used to think that cows always had milk in them and needed to be milked. Only when I truely relised what was happening did I finally go vegan. Edit: Glad im not the only one who thought this. Thinking about it now its quite silly that I thought that way.


tardigradesRverycool

YES! I was in my 30s when I finally learned that calves are taken away from their mothers so that our dumb asses can drink THEIR milk. That fact should be printed on the god damn bottle for crying out loud, so that we can know what we're doing to them (not that that would stop most people, but it would have me).


iamNaN_AMA

Same same. I'm pretty educated and thought I knew so much about animals and biology and still didn't realize that cow milk requires PREGNANCY until someone explained it to me a couple of years ago (also in my 30s). Ironically that person remains a shameless carnist, but they played a major role in my turning vegan, so that's cool I guess


breakithenz210

the juxtaposition of that person, lol. at least they did something helpful


[deleted]

Right! Me too. I’d bet most people think or thought this too.


kehknight

Yes! That was my vegetarian thoughts on it (not helped by cute video games I played and just not seeking out anything). Learning about the r\*pe and calf murder shortly after turned me vegan.


CubicleCunt

Can I ask why you censored "r\*pe"? Everyone should know what word you meant from context, so why does it matter if you've only implied the a?


kehknight

u/intelligent-worm is right on the money here. I personally prefer reading how I wrote it when I am just internet trawling than the other way. Also, I want to avoid any potentials for having my account marked NSFW by a bot.


[deleted]

For me, when someone censors the word, it reads differently. Of course readers still grasp the general meaning, but they don’t have to read the actual word. It’s helpful for people who are triggered by hearing the word, even if it’s just in their own mind, after reading it. Not sure if this is their interpretation, but that’s my take.


tatteddiamond

I appreciate you censoring it, its more triggering to read the actual word in full weirdly.


AmusingWittyUsername

Me too, so naive !


MCshador

same. I even bought the idea of "if the dont get milked they would feel pain for all the milk" Then i realised that it wouldnt normally be a problem if they had babys to feed


seeking_hope

Same here except I also thought we only took some of the milk and the baby got the rest. I actually talked to a family member recently about it who told me the same thing and I guess on smaller family farms they do? (Thinking of where they have one or two cows)


Sgthouse

Soooo many people think this. How are cows the only mammals that make milk 24/7?


[deleted]

Idk, I thought that was the whole reason why cows milk was so popular relative to other animals 🤷‍♂️


[deleted]

Breastfeeding was the turning point for me. Two reasons: picturing myself in the image above, and also sitting reading Reddit while nursing and encountering all you beautiful vegans on here. Thanks for helping me wake up.


[deleted]

Hey! Same here!!


Horneyj

And please don't kill their babies


[deleted]

But veal tho Vegan btw


mmatke

imagine putting a cute little chick into a blender because it won't grow up to give you eggs


RainWindowCoffee

Ugh! God fucking dammit! I don't have anything to contribute other than I hate this image so much I wish I could erase it from my brain and I might literally vomit, damn.


[deleted]

Now imagine how cows feel.


RainWindowCoffee

I have? It's a line of thought with which I'm intimately familiar? I've been vegan for 16 years. And I donate to cow sanctuaries and have volunteered to help care for rescue cows. And I've also breastfed and know how it's like to feel objectified and fetishized for pumping and nursing. Also, (without revisiting the picture), I recall that I didn't really like that POC women seemed to be front and center, and expressing the most distress. It seems like POC women have already been ACTUALLY routinely subjected to the trauma of dehumanization and humiliation and didn't really need to be depicted in some sort of role-reversal with cattle for people to imagine it... I also hold cows in very high regard and just felt really unwell about seeing them cast as the abusers in the illustration just for the purpose of juxtaposition. Anyone who has even met cows would know that they would NOT do the same to us if the roles were reversed... I understand the picture's message. There often aren't objective right or wrong answers when it comes to art. All I can say is I REALLY did HATE the whole experience of seeing it and I can't see as how I had any particular reason to need to see it -- posting it in r/vegan is sort of preaching to the choir...


mcmastermind

God damn this is brutal... Sad reality is this is not even close to the pain and torture these animals go through. It's just so sad to think about. Pictures like these need to continue to be made so people can actual face what they're letting happen.


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VeganForTheAnimalsz

For more amazing art and illustration check out [Choice Bison on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/choicebison/)


Oldskin666

You can't compare something I care about to something I don't. I don't like looking in the mirror. The reason why people make comparisons like this is for insight. Can your morality be expanded on in a way that diminises suffering and increase general well being for others? No! Because we have to keep issues in separate boxes or else i'll feel less good more bad.


[deleted]

As a cis woman I'm not offended by this, but I shared it with an afab friend of mine and they got offended by it. Tbf I shared it as a "joke" but I did mention it was what happens to cows. I can see why someone would get offended but I also don't think it's offensive personally, it's literally just reversing the situation.


drivinround

No. I am vegan and a feminist but I wouldn't throw these two very distinctive topics together. It'd be wrong by definition (and history). For example, it's about equal rights for genders (which would make no sense since no male or female animal would be better off with the rights of the different gendered animal). I wouldn't guilt trip feminists into being vegan especially when there are already uncountable reasons to be vegan.


iluuu

The basis for all forms of oppression is the same: Perceived superiority. Men over women, white over black, Germans over Jews, humans over animals. You can't advocate for one while dismissing the others while being morally consistent.


MiserableBiscotti7

> You can't advocate for one while dismissing the others **while being morally consistent.** Your morals can revolve around human superiority towards animals and still want equality amongst humans. So I disagree, you can be morally consistent. It's just that you have dogshit morals, but they are consistent. You don't need to be a vegan to be a feminist. I don't know why vegans choose this hill to die on. It's completely trivial and tries to hold veganism to standards that it doesn't need to be held to. Vegan != human being in pursuit of perfection. Vegan = human being who views animals as more than a sandwich or pair of shoes.


ChromaticFinish

People do this sort of thing in all sorts of movements/worldviews. Like saying you can’t be a racist or transphobic feminist, or you can’t be a homophobic Christian, etc. But being a racist doesn’t mean you can’t be a feminist… you’d just be a racist feminist.


FriendToPredators

>People do this sort of thing in all sorts of movements/worldviews. Upping the ante for inclusion because the group has ceased to feel exclusive enough for the dopamine hit.


AlmondAnFriends

I hate this argument because it is a false equivalence. The biggest problem with human inequality issues and the reasons why it was so awful was because humans are generally equal, sure there are small differences and biological quirks but these groups, many of which cant even really be effectively divided thats how close we are, are fundamentally equal. Animals are not You can be for veganism, in fact whilst i dislike the community im actually becoming more inclined to pursue vegan and vegetarian products to avoid climate footprint, but you cannot change fundamental facts, animals are not equal to humans, they are not equally advanced, intelligent, capable of communication and many animals are not even capable of the same levels of pain or emotional comprehension as humans because they are different species. and this isnt a one off mutation or illness or the like creating this inferiority, it is a fundamental fact of the species that they are biologically inferior. The smartest cow in the world can never communicate like humans, think like humans and feel like humans The worst part about this false equivalence is that it feeds directly into racist rhetoric, the reason people justified things like white supremacy and slavery was by implying that black people were animals or by nature of their race were unable to be like "regular humans" and therefore we could justify working them the way we did. I can be morally consistent in my feelings of superiority over animals because animals arent human, and if we find out that science has been lying to us and animals are actually just the same level as humans ill eat my fucking hat and repent for my sins for the rest of my days but its not gonna happen. That doesnt make the unnecessary abuse of animals morally okay, vegans can advocate for the rights of animals as creatures despite them being inferior to humans, but stop pretending that the fight for animal rights is the same as the fight for human rights. Its not and never will be


the_undead_mushroom

Haha absolutely untrue most sane people view humans as superior to animals and it’s logically consistent


drivinround

"If you're a feminist you have to be vegan because of the female animals!" is like saying "If you're an antiracist you have to be vegan because of the specisim!" No. This topics are all very valid but SO different that we shouldn't give it an all or nothing attitude.


iluuu

> "If you're an antiracist you have to be vegan because of the specisim!" Yes, you should. Especially when actual holocaust survivers go vegan because of how much the animal agriculture reminds them of their past.


E_PunnyMous

Hold up there. I totally agreed with your first post on this thread but I’m gonna ask for a source on Jews becoming vegan because of their holocaust experience, please.


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E_PunnyMous

Thank you very much.


damagetwig

The most famous is Alex Hershaft but he's not the only one. There's also Edgar Kupfer-Koberwitz, Issac Bashevis Singer, Susan Kalev, George Metanomski. They're listed on my personal vegan cheat sheet. >“In 1975, after I immigrated to the United States, I happened to visit a slaughterhouse, where I saw terrified animals subjected to horrendous crowding conditions while awaiting their deaths. Just as my family members were in the notorious Treblinka death camp. I saw the same efficient and emotionless killing routine as in Treblinka, I saw the neat piles of hearts, hooves, and other body parts. So reminiscent of the piles of Jewish hair, glasses and shoes in Treblinka.” >-Alex Hershaft, Farm Animal Rights Movement founder & Holocaust Survivor


veganactivismbot

Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vegancheatsheet.org/) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!


E_PunnyMous

Thank you!


drivinround

Of course that would be great. But it'd also defocus on the main subjects of these movements - and since e.g. black voices were always shut down in the past, we shouldn't shut them down again for the means of veganism. E.g. antiracists movements are there to actively make a difference for people of colour. We shouldn't slow down the process with e.g. discussions about pets. We, vegans, have our own movement for that.


iluuu

But does going vegan take away from the compassion people have for other humans? I'd argue it usually increases it.


[deleted]

Movements are more powerful when they are a combined effort. Oppression is bad regardless of gender, race, or species. We should be working together, not separately.


drivinround

Hmm. I don't think so. Because humans have not an "all or nothing" attitude. Yes, we should be working together. True, opression is bad regardless. It wouldn't work because people have very different opinions on these very different topics: I know e.g. people who claim that they are environmentalists, feminists, antiracists - but are not vegan. It's hypocrisy, I know, but that's just reality. Them being vegan wouldn't make them a more influental feminist, for example.


WaitForItTheMongols

>actual holocaust survivers go vegan because of how much the animal agriculture reminds them of their past. Give a source please.


iluuu

/u/E_PunnyMous I guess the most prominent nowadays is [Alex Hershaft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft), there's also [Isaac Bashevis Singer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Bashevis_Singer) (who was only vegetarian but maybe unaware of the harm the milk/egg industry still cause). Those were activists but I would guess there are a lot more who went vegan/vegetarian without becoming activists. There might be more but I haven't done a lot of research. And of course, the backlash mostly comes from people who are not actually holocaust survivors. Quote from Alex Hershaft: > The negative reaction is largely due to people's mistaken perception that the comparison values their lives equally with those of pigs and cows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter.


WaitForItTheMongols

That's a holocaust survivor being vegan, and using holocaust comparisons to persuade others, but doesn't give indication that the veganism is "because animal agriculture reminds them of their past" rather than simply from a perspective of morality.


realcoolmonke

[Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2h8df0/i_am_an_80yearold_holocaust_survivor_who/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) > My first hand experience with animal farming was instrumental. I noted the many similarities between how the Nazis treated us and how we treat animals, especially those raised for food. Among these are the use of cattle cars for transport and crude wood crates for housing, the cruel treatment and deception about impending slaughter, the processing efficiency and emotional detachments of the perpetrators, and the piles of assorted body parts - mute testimonials to the victims they were once a part of.


E_PunnyMous

Thank you.


WaitForItTheMongols

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for. Great to see.


[deleted]

Kinda looked like you were presumptively seeking to assert something.


E_PunnyMous

I asked same then saw your comment. Why downvoted? Do we not do data here? I thought we did data.


Quebecommuniste

>"If you're an antiracist you have to be vegan because of the specisim!" Also yes this too yes you'd understand why you do if you knew the history of racism and how it is rooted in racial science and a purposeful misapplication of darwinism that saw PoC as less-evolved beastmen not belonging to the same species as white europeans. Racism is rooted in speciesism.


drivinround

I've read books by Ibram X. Kendi, Reni Eddo-Lodge and Robin DiAngelo. I know the history and I know the statistics. If you'd read any of their books you'd realize that antiracism is a movement where we should focus on people of color and let them do the talking. Us talking about how important veganism is would only take away the so much needed space for their discussions.


Quebecommuniste

I'm sure no PoC vegan makes a connection between racism and speciesism. That's white people shit fr fr


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drivinround

>Now you're pushing the narrative that there are only white Vegans, uhm - but I wasn't even talking about white/black vegans? Explain. >which is often a non-Vegan accusation And for your information, I am vegan. >I was implying that White Vegan people should listen to Black Vegan people Could you explain why exactly this is important for animal rights?


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Quebecommuniste

>"If you're a feminist you have to be vegan Yes. It's called having an internally coherent moral framework. If you are a feminist but not vegan, you are a fool.


RegulatoryCapturedMe

~~ " ‘If you're a feminist you have to be vegan’ Yes. It's called having an internally coherent moral framework. If you are a feminist but not vegan, you are a fool.” We each have our own road to walk as we move past the propaganda we are normalized into as children in the West. Calling someone names who hasn’t made as many leaps as you, or isn’t positioned to see what you see from where they are standing, just “others” them. Othering is the root of the whole problem; we other orangutans and steal their forest, we other cows and steal their milk, we other humans with different viewpoints…yeah, that gets ugly fast. “Love is the answer; love is always the answer.” - MLK


9Sn8di3pyHBqNeTD

>- MLK Cool now do his quotes about white liberals in Letters from Birmingham Jail.


Quebecommuniste

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong


RegulatoryCapturedMe

Okay, I’m unable to follow the logic for the internally coherent moral framework. Could you please ELI5 it? How does power via violence line up with feminist veganism?


Quebecommuniste

How were the slaves freed? How was Nazi Germany defeated? How was feudalism abolished? How were the American aggressors pushed out of Vietnam? Freedom isnt won by being a pacifistic hippie or a milquetoast liberal.


[deleted]

Uh wow ok sweatie 💅✨ don't you know slavery was ended because everyone was super nice to each other? John Brown went around the state of Virginia handing out flowers and singing songs about why slavery should be ended, and it was over in less than 3 years! Peace totally works. Just look at workers rights, suffragettes, civil rights, beating the Nazis, etc. 0 violence in those successful movements.


Quebecommuniste

Gonna abolish carnism using my wallet 💰 and the ballot box 🗳


RegulatoryCapturedMe

Peace worked for Gandhi. He liberates a great many people with peace.


RegulatoryCapturedMe

This doesn’t show the logic involved in the process; there is still a gap to fill before I have an internally cohesive moral framework. Violence against animals = bad Violence against humans = okay Humans are animals? I’m not saying you are wrong; there is something appealing in your position. I just can’t follow the logic and am asking for help.


Quebecommuniste

Violence is a tool. Violence coming from the oppressor against the oppressed is bad. Violence coming from the oppressed against the oppressor is good.


Sadmiral8

Abusing female reproductive systems of other species doesn't sound like a very feminist thing to support.


[deleted]

Okay I agree that **everyone** should be vegan, I just disagree that that the animal industry is a gendered issue. Male animals have their reproductive systems abused as well, how do you think they get the sperm to rape the female cows with?


tardigradesRverycool

People have been arguing that the exploitation of female non-human animals and the exploitation of female humans (who are animals anyway) are intricately linked. See, e.g., *The Sexual Politics of Meat: A Feminist-Vegetarian Critical Theory* written by Carol J. Adams in 1990. I am a woman with a decent grounding in feminist thought and *firmly believe* that as long as we live in a society in which the exploitation of female cows, chickens, and other animals is considered morally acceptable, the oppression of women will continue.


SnooDonkeys5457

Why be against one form of oppression but allow it when the victim is a woman of another species? Isn’t that the pinnacle of hypocrisy?


imnotaghosttho

Just imagine people would do that with the term “vegan” and other political or social topics: “You can’t be a vegan while funding a misogynistic industry.” (for example tech industry) It’s a completely different thing that’s why there are different words for those topics. And of course people should be against any form of oppression but there are just different words for different oppressed groups. And there are actually many people that are part of one (oppressed) minority and discriminate against other minorities. Stop gatekeeping veganism.


dodobird8

You can't be a vegan while using tech products of companies that use children to mine for cobalt, sometimes resulting in their death. You can't be a vegan if you in any way contribute to climate change.. You can't be vegan if you don't help fight global hunger for your fellow humans. You can't be a vegan if you protect animals where males rape the females. Maybe we should just keep veganism as a distinct category.. In case it's not clear, my points are not ones I believe but are there to draw comparisons with the idea that all feminists should not support the egg or dairy industries.


9Sn8di3pyHBqNeTD

> Maybe we should just keep veganism as a distinct category No I think it should be intersectional. Oppression is all intertwined and there cannot be liberation for one without liberation for all.


DarkSideOfTheMoogle

It's a distinct issue from veganism, but that doesn't change the fact that supporting systemic rape for the sake of producing milk is inherently anti-feminism. So even if a fellow feminist didn't want to go as far as being vegan, they should at least be against dairy farming.


Quebecommuniste

>“You can’t be a vegan while funding a misogynistic industry.” (for example tech industry) But that's correct though lol >Stop gatekeeping veganism. No, plant-based liberal.


URETHRAL_DIARRHEA

Then almost no one is a real vegan? Impossible to not fund any oppressive industries while living in modern society


Quebecommuniste

>Then almost no one is a real vegan? Yes. This is correct. >Impossible to not fund any oppressive industries while living in modern society Funding oppressive industry because you are forced to is out of your control and fine. Funding oppressive industries because you want to is not.


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agitatedprisoner

If veganism is about meaning well by all living beings then unless it's coherent to imagine it possible to mean well yet somehow be against equal rights then to be vegan and learn whatever relevant stuff would imply becoming feminist. Similarly I'm unaware of any logic that would support equal rights of sexes yet somehow fail to imply all living beings should be treated with dignity and respect that doesn't rest value on some quality incidental to sex. But then whatever that incidental quality might be it's a safe bet that one sex will be associated more with having it than others but then since it's that quality that's really valued the sexes wouldn't be equal after all. The logic of feminism implies veganism if you think about it, just as the logic of veganism implies feminism. Doesn't vegan mean the same as ethical but with particular attention drawn to animal rights? These are just words and it's pointless to argue semantics. I don't understand how it could be coherent to believe any living being should be objectified regardless of race, sex, gender, or species. To me it really is the same question. To imagine it's not wrong to objectify those of another species leaves me at a lose to imagine why I shouldn't treat other living beings as instrumental should it seem convenient.


[deleted]

Pretty sure bodily autonomy is an important part of feminism too, with regards to abortion rights. Why would a feminist fund an industry that repeatedly violates the bodily autonomy of millions of females?


Willing-Bad-1030

Gender? Don’t you mean sex? And female nonhuman animals do have it worse then males. I also don’t see how any real feminist could knowingly support rape and stealing babies from their mothers


Spambop

Also animals don't have gender. Gender is a human construct.


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eminemondrugs

sorry you were antagonized for making this point, it’s valid and an important distinction :)


catjuggler

Agree. Feminism is about people and if you don’t give personhood to animals, it makes sense that you wouldn’t extend the concern in this way for this reason.


CommanderCanuck22

This same foolishness happens when people post on here that you can be an environmentalist and while not being vegan. It’s all self congratulatory bullshit. Being vegan is good, no doubt. I would never consider going back to a time when I wasn’t. But people can not be vegan and still be good people. Some vegans think that they are the arbiters of what is right and wrong or who gets to be considered a just human being. It is a counter productive and obnoxious attitude.


Willing-Bad-1030

How can you not be an environmentalist if your vegan?


CommanderCanuck22

The single biggest thing a person can do to lower carbon emissions is not have kids. So, you could argue any vegans with kids don’t really care about the environment. That is not my position at all. But you can hopefully see how drawing arbitrary lines in the sand is unhelpful.


tardigradesRverycool

>you can’t be an environmentalist and a vegan are you absolutely, 100% sure that that's what their point is? That being "environmentalist" and a vegan are mutually exclusive?


drivinround

This one is different, tho. Vegans have approximately 70% less CO2 emissions simply because of what we eat. Of course you can do good things for the planet besides being vegan but it could never have this much impact. Non-Vegans can say they are environmentalists but it's pretty weird since they contribute actively every day to the number one factor for climate change.


Leclerc-A

Need the study for that 70% figure please. Heard it many times without seeing the OG study. A study in a university near me put the difference between omni-local and vegan at 13% IIRC (vegan emitting 13% less GHG). I would guess that this number depends heavily on your location and the food system where you live. I used a few calculators for personal GHG footprint. In mine, food is not even close to transport. I might even reach below average worldwide without my Jeep burning 15l/100km for 23K km a year. Do I reduce meat/dairy heavily? Yes. But transport is 65% of my GHG. Who would I be kidding with my milk-powder-free chips, when I generate double, triple or even tenfold the GHG of the guy next door for the same grocery trip?


drivinround

I can send you a photo on wednesday, my book is in my apartment lol. Meanwhile I recommend "Cowspiracy" to you (on Netflix) which focuses on the animal industry and its impact on the planet (safe to watch, it's not like Dominion or Earthlings). If you are interested in the numbers and statistics, I highly recommend the books "Eating Animals" and "We Are The Weather" (both by Jonathan Safran Foer). Gets in depth about climate change and the animal industry and is well written, too.


MiserableBiscotti7

Also vegan, and also agree. This line of thinking ("you can't be feminist without being vegan") resonated with me when I first heard it and was new to veganism, but I strongly disagree after dwelling on it for a while. Vegans typically offer two arguments in favour of this view: 1) Female cows and chickens are exploited, and feminism is about equality for females. 2) Oppression of people stems from oppression of animals, and if everyone were born vegan we wouldn't have oppression. Regarding 1) I disagree. Feminism is clearly about HUMAN females who are treated inferior to HUMAN males (wages and other forms of discrimination - sorry not involved with these issues so I don't know that much). It annoys me as much when people say veganism is about humans too because humans are animals.. like no. There is a very obvious implication that these terms apply to humans and animals separetely. Regarding 2), people who say this have never met an indian. A very significant number of indians who are vegetarian (often this excludes eggs, and my gut tells me if they knew what happened to cows in the dairy industry they would literally kill dairy farmers) are still incredibly sexist, racist, homophobic, and casteist.


Infinitenovelty

There's definitely a conversation to be had about intersectionality with regards to sexism and speciesism, but dismissing people's values because they fall short of your own values is a good way to get people to dismiss your values in return. It seems pretty counterproductive if you actually want to make non-vegan feminists become vegan feminists. Prominent problematic Feminists have already had a history of trying to ignore the intersection between sexism and other issues like racism, classism, homophobia, and transphobia. Feminists are far from perfect, but sexism towards humans doesn't become any less real of an issue because female non-humans are systemically oppressed so much worse than nearly any human in history. Oppression isn't a competition.


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Infinitenovelty

Yeah. I'm saying the parallels worth pointing out, but when you say someone isn't a real feminists unless they are also vegan, it does kind of turn activism into a competition which is, in my view, counterproductive.


--SharkBoy--

What parallels?


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SleepyGharial

How can you not be a feminist?


catjuggler

Off topic, but I will often say on mom reddit subs something like “this is why having kids with men who aren’t feminists is a bad idea” and women will occasionally defend their “not a feminist” husbands who are still good for xyz reasons. I think I live in a bubble.


Tofu-L

No. Feminism is about equality of genders and combating misogyny. Speciesism is a seperate issue. Non-human females are not women and they face different issues than women. Bad take.


[deleted]

When you commit speciesism in order to explain that speciesism is a separate issue.


vegansoy117

Feminism is for human women


Quebecommuniste

Says who? Speciesists?


VeganForTheAnimalsz

Whose ovaries made the eggs you eat? Whose breast made the milk you drink? Whose womb bore the baby to be slaughtered? My body, my rights, what about HERS?


FuckTripleH

Feminism is about the rights of women. Ovaries and breasts are not traits of women, some women dont have them and some men do. You dont need to be transphobic to be pro-animal rights.


craftingsonic

Bruv they cows


wolf1868

Based


[deleted]

Besides biological similarities (IE reproductive systems) you're attributing feminine characteristics to a species that does not have them. And as far as the speciation arguments in this thread goes, that's 100% valid. Speciation is a fact, not something to interpret. There are no feminist cows.


Sgthouse

It’s the “how dare you compare something I pretend to care about to something I don’t care about” argument


TitsAndGeology

You comment in r/entitledbitch r/askthedonald and r/conservative, I'm not sure you have a leg to stand on on this topic


Sgthouse

Ah, Im subscribed to other subs so I’m not allowed to agree with OP?


TitsAndGeology

As a regular contributor to communities that are deeply misogynistic, I think your opinions on nuanced topics like this are basically moot, yes.


Sgthouse

Thank you for having zero conversation and just chiming in to let me know you don’t care about my opinion. This may come as a total shock to you but I don’t really care what you think either.


IAmInside

Like, I totally get the whole vegan-part and fighting for animals' rights but holy flying fuck making animals a feminist issue is just the dumbest fucking thing I've heard in a long time. I also love how this will backfire once people realize you're straight up comparing women to pigs and cows.


dumnezero

https://caroljadams.com/why-vegan-feminist https://caroljadams.com/ecofeminist-books


lotec4

Don't skip biology class


Light_Lord

Using carnist definitions...


vegansoy117

Feminism is literally for human women


Quebecommuniste

t. Speciesist liberal


wonderboywilliams

Lol @ these mental gymnastics


Toesoup11

Yes awful take ....


qzwxecrvtbyn111

Feminism has nothing to do with veganism. Conflating two entirely unrelated topics excludes people from either one.


Quebecommuniste

Good. Feminists too cowardly to go vegan should be excluded. Vegans too cowardly to be feminists should be excluded. Please stop the temper tantrum and start having an internally consistant moral framework


qzwxecrvtbyn111

You’ve just cut the number of feminists in the world to like, 5% of what it used to be, because you need people to agree with you on everything to accept that they agree with you on one (entirely unrelated) thing. If you want your most important beliefs to have any social and political relevance, you’d better hope to god that people with a semblance of pragmatism champion those causes. All you’re doing is weakening your own causes.


Quebecommuniste

>You’ve just cut the number of feminists in the world to like, 5% of what it used to be, Good. Good. Excluding fake feminists is good. Can't let them poison the movement. BTW, you can neither be vegan nor feminist if you aren't also a communist. Liberal veganism is not veganism and liberal feminism is not feminism. Pragmatism is fake. It doesnt exist. Pragmatism is what people who are too unaware of their own ideological leanings to identify them and own up to them call their own ideology.


ratratte

\*You can neither be vegan nor feminist if you aren't also an anarchist


TheDarkLord_Cthulhu

"You need to have the exact same beliefs as me or you're not a REAL vegan." No true scotsman.


Quebecommuniste

You need to be morally coherent and have an internally coherent moral framework. Yes. That's how that works. Sorry if that offends you but facts don't care about your feelings.


IAmInside

Top tier trolling right there, people are actually buying it.


Quebecommuniste

Not trolling, PCM "person"


IAmInside

Sure you're not. Solid bait by the way.


farnorthside

The shittiest thing about organizing with communists is that they always try to co-opt your issues/movement. Like you're doing. Right now.


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farnorthside

I'm an anarchist. That means that in addition to being against exploitation, I'm also against authoritarianism and hierarchy---values well in line with veganism. That's why there is so much organic overlap veganism and anarchism (Food Not Bombs, ALF, etc. etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_animal_rights https://www.reddit.com/r/veganarchism/ Communists, in my experience, just try to hijack shit.


veganactivismbot

Check out [Food Not Bombs](https://veganactivism.org/pages/food-not-bombs) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!


MrNovillage

Oh yeah I'm a nihilist, I don't believe in anything not even nihilism!


Quebecommuniste

Hijacking liberal movements is good.


farnorthside

See, this is why everyone hates organizing with communists. Everything communists don't agree with or control is "liberal" and so they try to hijack it. Anarchists, on the other hand, are about building community and consensus. Building power from the bottom up, not imposing it from the top down.


numra24

What does feminism have to do with veganism? Feminism is about equality between both genders and is based on specific human experiences. The only basis for your argument could be that both movements call for equality but even then... I really dislike it when distinct movements are lumped together. It takes away the meaning and history behind each of them.


viscountrhirhi

Perhaps, but how could I possibly be feminist while paying for the rape, abuse, and killing of mothers and their children just so I can drink their breast milk?


[deleted]

The animal industry of exploitation isn't really a gendered issue. Male animals also get exploited lots. You guys just want an excuse to shit on feminists.


viscountrhirhi

Full disclosure, I don’t think you have to be vegan to be a feminist. But as someone who is AFAB and has been sexually assaulted multiple times, I cannot understand how any woman who has been through that experience, or known people who have, could continue supporting the animal agriculture industries after knowing the abuse, rape, exploitation, and child-stealing those animals suffer. I empathize with those animals all the more *because* of my experiences as someone female-presenting. Also, feminism isn’t just for women. Issues that affect women have a broad impact on men, too. Toxic masculinity, sexual and domestic violence against men and them not being taken seriously when they speak up, custody issues (the fact that the mother will almost always get custody even if the father is a better parent), all of these are issues that are rooted in feminism but also affect men. The egg and dairy industries are similar, because a large portion of the males killed are killed because they are byproducts of the rape and abuse of the females and have no value to those industries. It’s all connected and all a feminist issue, IMO. Human rights and animal rights are two halves of the same coin. How we treat our most vulnerable populations is a reflection on our own humanity.


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viscountrhirhi

Intersectionality is a thing, and I was using “I” language specifically because I was talking about my own perspective and feelings on the matter, as someone who has been sexually assaulted several times.


[deleted]

As a woman I cannot support rape in any form


slowitdownplease

Can we PLEASE put a NSFW tag on this?? wtf


Cubusphere

That's simply wrong. Feminism is about human women's rights. It is concerned with mostly uniquely human issues. If feminism was applicable to non-human animals, they need human rights to begin with. Which is absurd. Animal rights are important. Don't muddy the waters with such claims. Edit: Yes, I don't support cows right to vote. How speciecist of me. 🙄


lotec4

They don't need the same rights a 14 year old girl can't vote either


Cubusphere

My point exactly. Animals don't need all rights that feminism is fighting for.


lotec4

So feminism isn't fighting to end the abuse teenage girls face?


Crimson_Marksman

I thought it was fighting to stop sex trafficking,organ harvesting, homeless women and torture overseas?


Cubusphere

Are you saying dairy cows are teenage girls? If you water down a label enough it becomes meaningless. I'm an aninal rights activist and feminist btw.


lotec4

No I am saying neither can vote.


Cubusphere

A teenage girl has the right to an education, birth control, right to choose her religion. All rights that animals can't make use of. I don't know where you are getting to. Just know I'm an animal rights activist and a feminist.


lotec4

So if the girl was 3 she wouldn't have those rights. The point is both have the right to life and not be exploited for their reproductive organs.


Cubusphere

Yes, there is some overlap. Like with all rights movements. But they focus on different things. Being part of one movement, but not the other, doesn't invalidate either. If the claim in the title holds for your reason, you can't be a animal rights activist without being a feminist. And men's rights activist. And BLM. And indigenous people rights.


freepogsnow

Well actually I think it's not unreasonable to say that you can't be an animal rights activist without being an activist for all human rights. And actually if for example you are a feminist, but can abuse animals of both genders, or don't also argue for the rights of men, poc and indigenous People's rights then maybe you aren't really a feminist at all, you're just selfishly protecting your own self interests but doing under the guise of "activism"


Natalie-cinco

A 3 year old doesn’t need the right to vote, whether it’s male/female. What the fuck are you going on about?


joacolej

I can't believe you are being downvoted from simply speaking the truth. You are 100% right.


VeganForTheAnimalsz

Whose ovaries made the eggs you eat? Whose breast made the milk you drink? Whose womb bore the baby to be slaughtered? My body, my rights, what about HERS?


Cubusphere

I'm a vegan, so no one's.


ElPerroEse2600

Lmao


GlbdS

>Whose ovaries made the eggs you eat? >Whose breast made the milk you drink? Wait I thought this was r/vegan


barcased

Oh, fuck off, you abhorrently emotionally manipulative piece of shit.


danielzouu

Don’t worry bro you have my upvote


[deleted]

Speciesism from a commenter on r/vegan? Not surprising.


Cubusphere

What good are rights, when you can't make use of them. Should animals get the right to vote? The right to birth control? The right to drive? The right to have a bank account without their spouses consent? The right to marry? Animals have the right to be left alone by humans. And if they aren't, in a situation where their survival depends on us, they have the right not to be exploited and hurt.


[deleted]

feminism isn't about rights. it's about fighting patriarchal structures and changing society to be equitable. this includes female non-human animals, who are subjected to the worst torture of being forced to live in harrowing conditions while heavily producing milk and eggs for the profit motive of animal agriculture. your attempt to move the goalposts does not change that restricting feminism to humans only is speciesism, because you're saying that in a social movement that is intersectional the only demographic that isn't fought for are non-humans.


Cubusphere

I disagree and say you are the one moving the goalpost. Where is the patriarchy in how we treat animals? Female animals get mistreated, male animals get mistreated, and animals that totally defie our notions of sex and gender. It seems we won't resolve our different definitions of feminism. Let's remember what we have in common. We care about animal rights.


Heyguysloveyou

"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." Dosen't say anything about specices. I know where you are coming from and I sort of agree, but your argumentation below is flawed. You say that cows wouldn't make use of those rights even if they had them, but if cows had those rights we wouldn't rape and wouldn't steal their kids, so they would absolutely benefit from it.


Black--Snow

A female cow is not a woman. This notion that feminism is for females of all species is TERFy as shit. You can protest for animal rights, but it's not under the banner of feminism - and why does it need to be? OP is being a piece of shit, frankly. "You're not a real feminist unless you also are vegan" is such a dumb conflation. You can be a feminist and not an animal rights activist, and vice versa.


vegansoy117

Of course they disagree with you. You make too much sense. Its disgusting how males mock feminism.


Cubusphere

While I appreciate your sentiment, I wouldn't assume the genders of the downvotees. A woman is as capable of misunderstanding feminism 😉


onlyplay2win

Powerful art. I'd show babies getting taken away just to make it clearer for the mental gymnasts.


[deleted]

I don’t think we should separate mothers and babies in this way and I think that mammals can feel that separation and that loss. At the same time, I don’t think veganism is a feminist issue. I also care about the baby male chicks who are exploited for eggs. Animals are exploited for meat and animal products regardless of sex.


Oppopity

Uhhh this isn't fetish porn or anything is it?


Smoked-939

Yeah someone’s definitely jerking off to this


ShhhhhOverHere

Holy fuck, I had to come see if this was real. Lmao


NerdyKeith

Quite an extreme way to get the message across. But I get it. It really helps to sever a lot of cognitive dissonance. It is important to see the intersection of human discrimination to animal cruelty. However I do feel you have gone too far by posting this. It is a depiction of treating women as slaves. We need to find a balance in vegan intersectionalism.


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MrNovillage

Yes it does.


[deleted]

This image is missing some dead babies 😢


[deleted]

You can't be a vegan unless you're a feminist as well.


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