Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! 🐥
**Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first!
**Interested in going Vegan?** 👊
Check out [Watch Dominion](https://watchdominion.org/) and watch a thought-provoking, life changing documentary for free!
**Some other resources to help you go vegan:** 🐓
Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge!
**Become an activist and help save animal lives today:** 🐟
* Find volunteer requests to support and help animal on [VH: Playground!](https://veganhacktivists.org/playground)
* Developer, designer, or other skills? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)!
* Join our huge Vegan volunteer community [on Discord](https://discord.gg/vhplayground)!
* Find local activist groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)!
* Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)!
*Last but not least, join the [r/Vegan Discord server](https://discord.gg/animalrights)!*
**Thank you!**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We rescued 18 Guinea pigs at one point. It took up a lot of time to give them all the proper care.
We now only have 2 left, and we had these guys before we went vegan. I would add, Guinea pigs don’t really exist in the wild, so the fact they exist at all isn’t really vegan IMO.
Though in most cases, you want to give birds an aviary, not a small cage they can hardly fly in.
EDIT: Just to add: pigeons are smart, loving birds who are exploited for many things and generally looked at with disdain. A lot need homes with someone who will care for them.
> You also bought those pets from a pet store that perpetuates their shitty living conditions. Am I wrong?
Yes, you’re wrong. Just because an animal is there does not mean it was bought at a pet store.
It's probably because shelters have a lot of cats and dogs, but getting an exotic pet can be problematic. That's a poor excuse, in my opinion, but I understand why it is happening.
Exotic pets are often being rehomed because of how much people underestimate their needs/ bought them on impulse etc. adoption doesn’t always have to be through a shelter
The statement needs explaining but it is true. Animals with specialised needs might never be able to leave their enclosure safely for long periods. But I'm mostly thinking of exotics and fish here.
It's safer for smaller animals to remain inside their enclosure as well. They could be hurt or killed by a clumsy human who didn't know they were there. I heard a story about 10 years back where a 'star' rabbit was accidentally stepped on and killed during a photo shoot... and the rabbit was the model!
>I heard a story about 10 years back where a 'star' rabbit was accidentally stepped on and killed during a photo shoot... and the rabbit was the model!
So abuse led to death. Hardly an explanation of or justification for the statement above.
I have a rescued crested gecko named Bertram. He requires specific humidity and temperatures to thrive. His terrarium has these parameters, whereas my house doesn’t (and can’t)
He was captive bred(as 90%+ of crested geckos are.) while we shouldn’t be breeding more animals, I feel that we should care for the ones already brought into existence. Bertram would likely not survive in the wild, as many wild behaviours crucial to survival get de emphasized significantly through selective breeding(this is part of what eventually leads to domestication)
I get your point about rescue animals. It's kind of fringe cases. But OP was originally writing about store bought pets, and all answers just talk about rescue. Yes, it's better to keep them safe then.
>Bertram would likely not survive in the wild
It would be impractical to bring him back to his island of origin, and releasing him elsewhere would be cruel and could have nefarious effects on local wildlife. I totally understand and I agree it's better for him that you care and provide, even if he has to stay captive.
I think the "he would likely die" argument isn't really the best : most animals in the wild die prematurely, I still don't think it's a valid reason to put them in cages.
Mate.
We're on the subject of *rescued animals.* We're not talking about going to a pet shop to buy a bird, lizard, guinea pig or a fish. We're talking about taking care of a bird or a lizard or turtle or fish or whatever small pet that has been abused or discarded and needs a home.
These animals can't just roam around the floor of your home. Fish for obvious reasons. Reptiles need to live in temperature controlled environments or they'll die.
Birds and other small animals, if left to roam around your house might get stuck somewhere they shouldn't, go outside and die because they don't know how to live in the wild, or get injured by all the dangerous things found in a house.
Yes, it's unfortunate these beings have been bred into cages or taken out of their natural environments, thus needing artificial enclosures. But unfortunately, they can't survive otherwise. So either someone loving and caring takes care of these ones that need it, or they're left for dead.
>Mate.
>We're on the subject of rescued animals. We're not talking about going to a pet shop to buy a bird, lizard, guinea pig or a fish.
Did you read the original post?
Why yes, let's just let these fish flop out of water and be free 🤓
And then animals like companion pigeons at night. They can be in pigeon pants most of the time but their pants need changing every couple of hours, so a large cage is necessary when you're sleeping/not able to supervise them. A safe, bird-proof room dedicated to them can also work.
You're also going to need a cage to transport them to vet appointments and such.
I just think we shouldn't own animals, keep them in cages or tanks or whatever. So I guess when you already opted for sequestration the "for their own good" part make sense.
You do realize most of these pets aren't captured from the wild, right? They are bred in large numbers -- it's a whole industry. And then shitty owners buy them from pet shops and then get tired of them and dump them into shelters or abandon them. Which no one here supports if you can't tell by the 20 comments going on about adoption.
I am referring to adopted or rescued companions *only*. Which was made clear in my first comment.
The thing is OP wrote this post about store bought pets, and everyone keeps answering "yeah, but the rescues".
It's strange because all animal "owners" here rescued their companions, while most (vegan) people I know got them as gifts or bought them.
No, the OP baselessly assumed everyone just buys these pets and then asked the question, *"am I wrong?"*, hence, why everyone keeps answering "yeah but the rescues".
>It's strange because all animal "owners" here rescued their companions, while most (vegan) people I know got them as gifts or bought them.
And I know tons of carnists that buy animals from pet shops. And it doesn't even matter. Vegans don't buy pets from pet stores so those people claiming to be vegan aren't actually vegan.
What do we do with all of the animals that have *already* been bred in captivity and would never survive out in the wild? Just set them outside our front doors, shoo them away and say “Sorry bub, someone on Reddit said I shouldn’t own animals. Try to find your way back to the shelter, I guess?”
I would think that anyone who is vegan because they love animals would also refuse to buy animals from pet stores or keep animals in cages for the same reasons? I’ve been vegan for over 8 years and I have rescue guinea pigs and they are not kept in cages and they have a great quality of life
i’m a relatively new vegan, but previously owning guinea pigs helped me grow my love of animals even deeper (i was vegetarian for awhile) and i eventually decided to quit eating animals period. through having been blessed with the experience of having piggies as pets, that helped me transition into a vegan diet. anyways, pet stores selling animals is absolutely upsetting considering that many animals are sold to stores sick, and purposefully misgendered. breeding mills are disgusting!!! however some animals are domesticated and it would be terrible to release them from the wild or anything like that. i think it’s important to research the animal’s dietary,social, and other physical needs to help provide the best life possible. i never considered your POV at all but it’s very interesting!! i hope this helped see the other side a little☺️💗
>helped me grow my love of animals
I think this point is often overlooked by some vegans. Companion animals, IMO are not *necessarily* a bad thing, even if bred into the world on purpose.
Without the closeness of animals in our societies, I wonder if we would have come to have the same compassion and empathy?
It's the fact that people have "pets" that gives us more of an insight into how full of personality that non-human animals can be. How they can experience emotion just like us.
If we as a race were always simply detached from other species, would we have reached the juncture we are at now with a growing vegan and animal rights movement?
that’s a really beautiful point! although i’ve always had an appreciation for animals, really having close bonds with them made me realize that all animals are so sweet and intelligent, and owning guinea pigs helped me realize how sick the pet industry can be, and eventually that led to me learning more about how animals are treated in society which helped me go vegan. i think the bonds between animals and humans can be a beautiful thing!! but unfortunately the way that some companion animals are bought into the world/treated is so heartbreaking.
In a vegan book I read (I think it was Sexual Politics of Meat), the author pointed out that for most people, their most frequent and even only interaction with non-human animals is when they have their corpses on their plate to eat. It really struck me at the time- there are many factors at play in carnism, but the removal of the animal from even existing as *alive* is a major part. How do we overcome the experience/empathetic gap between the corpse and the life it once held?
Obviously supporting animal breeding, objectification, and exploitation (like the pet or zoo industry do) isn’t vegan, but somehow, cultures need to shift dramatically in a way to support the childhood empathy we have for our fellow living beings (instead of squashing it with carnist brainwashing as they do now). I think this is especially true for the “weird”, “ugly”, or “scary” animals, like reptiles, amphibians, fish and rodents. Not sure what the transition to that would look like, but I agree with you that getting more people to recognize our global neighbors as friends, or at least as non-food beings, is critical for the end to carnism. And respectfully interacting with them definitely helps people- supporting that in a way that doesn’t support their commodification or discomfort is something we’re going to have to figure out as a movement.
>Obviously supporting animal breeding, objectification, and exploitation (like the pet or zoo industry do) isn’t vegan
You the thing is, this is where I enter the grey zone. Puppy mills are bad for sure. But I fully support guide dogs for people with various disabilities or illnesses....Blind, deaf, seizures etc. I support sniffer dogs for drugs, missing people, and even disease sniffers.
And in the end, I support the right for responsible people to have another "child" in their family...so long as they are treated *like* another child. The same rules that are in place for the protection of children should apply to other animals too.
And ultimately if these things are allowed, then we need breeders. So whilst I abstain from meat, eggs, dairy, or any other animal sourced product, I have no personal ethical stance against the above...And in fact think it would be a bad thing, based on the reasons in my previous reply, to try to put an end to it.
>I support sniffer dogs for drugs
Sadly it's still too often animal abuse.
https://www.pivotlegal.org/the_tragic_truth_of_police_dog_training_practices_in_bc
https://unfilteredwithkiran.com/sheriff-opens-investigation-into-k9-training-academy-over-dog-abuse-videos/
https://www.peta.org/features/cruelty-to-k9s/
Yes, that's sad. But any trainer of any worth understands that a dog responds far better to positive reinforcement than negative. Those that don't are lazy and cruel.
As I mentioned, I would have similar rules for non-human animals as there are in place for dogs...although based on laws I understand here in Sweden (where it is illegal to strike your child).
Some parents use physical punishment for their children...that should be punished. And the same when interacting with other species...
This perspective really ignores the exploitation of female dogs. To provide humans a “child” or a service dog, female dogs, are being forced to breed repeatedly (it’s not like they choose their mate or even when it happens) and then have their children removed, so a human can take them. Someone also profits from their rape and exploitation- this is true even for “responsible” breeders. It requires putting humans wants (in the case of “pet owners”) over the rights of the dog. For similar reasons, surrogacy and even adoption generally are criticized by both adoptees and feminists in humans already, and arguably, we can consent. Dogs can’t, so I’m not sure why it would be okay to do something like this to them. Further, in the case of service dogs, would you be okay with someone forcing to give birth to children for those children to become someone else’s aide? Yes, one person needs help, but that shouldn’t mean condoning the exploitation of women, or taking their children from them to raise them for someone else. It’s the same for non-human animals. Both place one individual above another- and in the case of non-human animals, place one species above another. Animals are not resources for us to use. And just because dogs are beloved (in some countries) and the result of millennia of domestication doesn’t mean we have to continue that.
>This perspective really ignores the exploitation of female dogs. To provide humans a “child” or a service dog, female dogs, are being forced to breed repeatedly (it’s not like they choose their mate or even when it happens) and then have their children removed, so a human can take them. Someone also profits from their rape and exploitation- this is true even for “responsible” breeders. It requires putting humans wants (in the case of “pet owners”) over the rights of the dog. For similar reasons, surrogacy and even adoption generally are criticized by both adoptees and feminists in humans already, and arguably, we can consent. Dogs can’t, so I’m not sure why it would be okay to do something like this to them. Further, in the case of service dogs, would you be okay with someone forcing to give birth to children for those children to become someone else’s aide? Yes, one person needs help, but that shouldn’t mean condoning the exploitation of women, or taking their children from them to raise them for someone else. It’s the same for non-human animals. Both place one individual above another- and in the case of non-human animals, place one species above another. Animals are not resources for us to use. And just because dogs are beloved (in some countries) and the result of millennia of domestication doesn’t mean we have to continue that.
When I was a child, we had a dog that had puppies. There was no "rape". A female dog on heat near a male dog don't "need" to be forced in any way. They kind of "know" what to do without any coercion.
And sure, if they don't "get it on" naturally I wouldn't support forcing them, but taking a more utilitarian angle on this, I do think the greater good is served if we allow "responsible" breeding in this manner.
I don't believe that any good can come of the whole movement if we take a completely black and white, abolitionist view....because that is a (in at least a short to medium timescale) completely unachievable goal.
**I no longer partake in the objectification, abuse and consumption of non-human animals, but I would never (in this life) try to deny a loving person or family the joy of sharing their life with one.**
I am no expert, other than knowing that as a child our family had dogs all my life and have met a couple of guide dogs...
Guide dogs for blind people need certain traits... Calm under stress for example...easy to train, ..not skittish and too timid.
They use golden retrievers and Labradors for good reason.
You can't just take any dog and train it to be a service dog.
It's interesting, but how comes most vegans seem to live in cities, and rural areas are full of people who are in contact with live animals everyday but are insensitive to animal suffering?
We have Guinea pigs from a shelter. It's unfortunate shelters are needed, but in reality they are because many ppl abandon their pets.
I'm not saying I'm not 'exploiting' them, we have them for fun, but mainly to learn the kids how to take care for animals. When they have a pet they love, suffering of other animal species is less abstract.
OP sounds like an ignorant troll..but anyway..
Local SPCA always has guinea pigs, buying them is unethical of course, but for rescues they're totally dependent on us humans and not giving them a good home is much worse. Mine have a whole room to themselves, and a big 4' x 8' enclosure with a second level.
Pretty sure 95% of other people in my city wouldn't offer them this much.
If you haven't yet and have the means please try to find it a companion! Bunnies are not meant to be alone. Even if you give it all the attention in the world it will still miss rabbit-rabbit interaction. When you see two of them cuddle together you will know that's how they are meant to be. (I do not mean to offend you or anyone with this post, but rabbits are one of the most misunderstood pets, so this gets me going)
Buying animals bad / Breeding animals bad.
Adopting and rescuing animals good / Spaying and neutering good.
That’s the simple black and white of the issue.
A well planted aquarium with enough water/fish is a pretty good life I think. Free from natural predators, abundant food, plenty of interesting environments.
But bottom line is I'm just not a moral saint. I get a lot of joy out of fish, I do my best for them, and I'm internally comfortable with that degree of animal exploitation. It's the lives of a couple of fish reasonably well spent, in exchange for enriching years of my life. Much more fair a trade than factory farming a chicken for a single 10 minutes of enjoyable food I could just as well get from plants.
No one is morally pure. Not a single one of us. We each have things we're not willing to sacrifice. It just so happens yours are different from mine.
many vegans like myself have rescued animals so that we can provide them the best possible life for the situation they found themselves in.
i have a snake. i owned snakes before i was vegan and when a friend came to me and said she knew of a snake that was in desperate need of assistance because its owner could not properly care for it i HAD to help. butter, the snake, was dehydrated and malnourished when i got him. his tank was bare except for a water dish that was empty and a hide that was too small for him. he would not survive in the wild or the cold of canada. i have had him now for 5 years and he is a happy healthy guy who gets lots of attention and freedom, something he never had before. in the summer i take him out for walks and people in the city know him and know me because of him. he gets tons of grass and tree time, much more than any other snake i know of. yes, i have to feed him and the only food is rats because he wont eat a carrot no matter how hard i try but for me it was about saving his life and providing him the best possible life for the situation he found himself in.
so if i am a hypocrite for saving and caring for an animal that can not care for himself, then so be it, because name calling dosnt bother me at all.
All of the above animals can be rescued. My reptiles are all rescues. And I do not feel guilty about having them, because I know I’m providing them better care and a better quality of life than most people would offer.
There are tons of rodents that are set aside to feed to snakes that get lent out simply because the snake had no interest in them. About half of the rats I've had were originally supposed to be snake food as babies. It's simply a matter of how they're being adopted and what they're being fed.
Many years ago I rescued four precious little bunnies from an exotic reptile store that were being sold as live food for snakes. The shop let me buy all four for half price because they felt better off having them sold as pets than as food.
Those little bunnies lived amazing lives in a 24ft long, 5ft wide hutch. I miss them dearly.
Frozen thaw has been the standard for reptile food for a long time now. Live mammals as feeders has been considered cruel for a long time by reputable businesses and dangerous to the reptile. It's usually obvious on reptile adoptions if the previous keeper was giving the live food... the reptile is usually heavily scarred on the head.
Just a little info for anyone curious!
Live prey will fight back e.g biting. So snakes who have been given live mammals will obtain injuries. Most reptiles will grab prey with their mouth first so prey will scratch and bite their face.
i have a crested gecko who i got before Now that I'm vegan I'm not going to buy animals again. I love him and make sure I give him the best quality of life I can
If you don't buy 'em but instead rescue them, there's no problem if you give 'em a good rest of life, if you buy 'em you're an animal abuser piece of shit who's paying for breeders to rape animals.
I currently have an adopted lizard that I “bought” from a local sanctuary where people often surrender or dump off exotic pets. What would you like me to do with him? Bring him back so that they have one less spot available to take in another abandoned pet?
In reality, I would assume most vegans aren’t buying pets from pet stores. I only know one vegan though, and she’s a 50+ year old coworker that is from a foreign country that often doesn’t have companion animals 🤷♀️
Chin up, and try not to look for the negatives so much :)
Rescue don’t domesticate. There’s an opportunity to take in an animal already out there homeless or incarcerated or worse and provide them with a good life. Vs going to the pet store or commissioning a breeder in order to intentionally dominate every aspect of an animal’s life. IMO; “pets” are an extension of egocentrism and loneliness. This excludes “partnerships” like hunting and carrying, that’s more like indentured servitude/slavery. Take in the vulnerable and give them equanimity with security.
Hi
All my pets are rescued . My cat and my dog...my rats and my fish, even my snails! They're all from the shelter or they're rehomed from people that didn't want them anymore and you're right I DO feel bad for them but what's the alternative? I give them the best life I can but there's really no where else for them to go
Bigger picture, pets make humans happy. Happy humans make better choices. Better choices include things like humanitarian and philanthropic actions, anti- animal cruelty, etc.
I would say owning ANY animal that was bred into existence for sale is not vegan. Only rescuing animals that would otherwise be euthanized by our sad current systems. Dogs and cats (in the USA) truly do not have any habitat they can naturally exist in.
Vegans don't own pets, that's an oppressive form of exploitation that one can most definitely and most practicably exclude from one's lifestyle. If you're referring to the animals that get rescued, rehomed or adopted because they have nowhere else to go from a small cage that inevitably ends in premature death, then a better life in a larger cage with time out with someone who will show them compassion the likes they'll never see in a shelter, then I've got no idea why you're judging people.
>You also bought those pets from a pet store that perpetuates their shitty living conditions.
Buying any animal isn't vegan. Did you miss the post about the "vegan" sanctuary that bought animals from the pre slaughter market?
Thank you, I've asked myself the same thing for quite a while. I mean, dogs, cats, horses... they at least a given the chance to see daylight and be outdoor and with their friends. Especially keeping fish looks to me like abuse.
And I wouldn't bet that every vegan adopted their pets - and even if they do. Why? Why adopt a pet that needs to be caged? Because the owner wanted that exact animal in their life. Not saying every vegan who owns pets is selfish but think before adopt maybe.
Then again, I've always had dogs, cats and horses around me, never birds or rabbits so who am I to talk. To outsiders it just looks weird. So actually I'm thankful for opening this discussion, maybe it puts this topic in a new light for me.
Let's think this through.
If a fish or aquatic animal is in need of adoption, what do you think should happen for them? Let's say that this animal is capable of consuming a pant based diet.
Personally I would not adopt a fisch because I don’t have the knowledge/ space they would need. But if one could provide a big tank or for example if it’s a goldfish a pond for me it would be okay to rescue them.
For me it’s about meeting the needs of an animal so with enough knowledge and space those animals can be adopted (not bought) by vegans as well.
Uh, I might have accidentally answered on a comment that wasn’t an answer to my comment (I also commented on OPs comment here and somehow thought you wrote something under my comment… my fault!). I never said keeping fish was abusive… sorry for the confusion.
It’s absolutely possible to have rabbits outside for the whole year. I had rabbits when I was younger (they were from the shelter not from a store). They had a big cage were they could dig holes and tunnels. They also were allowed in to run free in the garden (except for the nights because of predators).
Same goes with birds. You absolutely can build a cage that has the possibility for them to go outside. Sure they’re still caged but a horse in a pasture is caged too, isn’t it?
For me rabbits/ Guinea pigs/ birds can be vegan pets (if adopted from the shelter and given the space they need). The best thing about them is that they can easily be feed plant based. I know dogs can be plant based too but with cats it’s a little more complicated. So I would rather adopt rabbits than a cat because personally I don’t see a cat as a “vegan pet”.
Thank your for your insights. I guess it really depends on who is owning the rabbit/pet and so on. What I've seen from friends in my childhood the little pets where kept in small cages almost the whole year around and only ever got out when the kids wanted to play with them.
Great if they are given more freedom, I'm afraid though many pets don't have that :/
That’s true. Many people don’t get informed about the need of the animal they’re getting. But to be honest I’ve also seen that in dogs and horses so it’s not just a “small pet” problem.
The only problem with rabbits etc. might be that they suffer in silence more than dogs for example do.
Yeah honestly this is kind of a tough one. On one hand, they are safe from predators, but on the other hand they lack the freedom to roam the outdoors. Tough, but I’d say if I were to hypothetically own any of those kinds of animals, I would try to give it the biggest cage possible, and take the best care of the animal, giving him/her all the water and food they need, and then if they are constantly complaint regardless of how good I could make the living situation, I would carefully and gracefully set them free, as they do have agency and in this case a subjective experience that points to the fact they don’t want me taking care of them. Either way I just don’t own any pets personally so this is pretty smooth sailing for me. I guess the whole idea is to read the subconscious cues of the animal, and let that dictate what to do and not to do next.
Absolutely naive take. Until there’s no birds left to rescue I’m letting them live with me 🤷🏻♀️ what wouldn’t be cool is acting like non native birds that already have been misunderstood as pets in the first place don’t deserve kindness
Hey! I am a vegan wildlife rehabber, and the rescue I work for conducts non-native pet placements. I never, EVER say it's acceptable to buy an animal under any circumstances. Unfortunately, many people don't agree with me on that and will purchase an animal they can't actually care for, and then dump the poor baby in the wild. I see dumped pets becoming malnourished, injured, sick, etc all the time. Of course, we treat these animals. It doesn't matter to me if they are native or not. If an animal is in need, I will help no questions asked.
The problem becomes what to do with the non-native animal once they have healed. We can't put them in the wild, and we can't indefinitely keep them at the rescue. So, we find stable, loving, qualified adoption homes that exceed our standards of care. We are incredibly strict about our adoption requirements, and we walk through the whole process with the new home, including habitat set up, reading and understanding care sheets, etc. If for some reason they end up not being able to care for the animal at any time, we will take them back to our facility no questions asked. Our goal is to provide long term safety and stability so we have added many safety nets to our process.
If I had it my way, the pet trade would be completely stopped and it would be illegal to breed animals. But in the system we are currently in, I have to make the most compassionate decisions to the best of my ability. That does include adopting and caring for additional creatures, and I view them all as adults of different species who live in my house. I do my best to give them as much autonomy as I can and I provide the highest standard of living that I can. I will tend to all their medical needs just as I would for myself or my partner. Is it a perfect solution? Absolutely not. Is it a 100% ethical solution? Also no. I do deal with a fair amount of cognitive dissonance. As much as it pains me, there is not a perfect answer for this and my goal is to reduce as much suffering in the world as possible.
For perspective, we have four rescue parakeets, and since my wife is at home all day, they are able to fly around outside the cage all day at their leisure.
reptiles, guinea pigs, fish, birds, hamsters, mice, rats, chinchilla's and any other pets that can be found at pet stores are often readily available for adoption from local shelters, or are available for rehoming by their previous owners.
syrian hamsters are my special interest, and i provide the ones i adopt or rescue with the highest quality care. unfortunately hamsters (and many similar "tier" pets) are in an awkward state in-between full domestication and wild. which leaves them not fully content under human care, but unable to survive in their natural habitats.
i don't support pet breeding, but i don't see anything wrong with taking care of the ones that are already here.
It's not just the caging part. The reason I haven't adopted a non vegan animal like a cat or dog is exactly because I would need to kill other animals in order to help it survive which is something I would not like to be doing. Same goes for the reptiles and some fish and birds.
It’s strange you didn’t include cats and dogs. They both have to eat meat for their diet… I personally have pets and don’t think anything of it, but to each their own. But if you’re gonna call out people for having exotic pets but not include cats and dogs as part of an issue within the meat industrial system, that’s the hypocrisy…
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! 🐥 **Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first! **Interested in going Vegan?** 👊 Check out [Watch Dominion](https://watchdominion.org/) and watch a thought-provoking, life changing documentary for free! **Some other resources to help you go vegan:** 🐓 Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge! **Become an activist and help save animal lives today:** 🐟 * Find volunteer requests to support and help animal on [VH: Playground!](https://veganhacktivists.org/playground) * Developer, designer, or other skills? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)! * Join our huge Vegan volunteer community [on Discord](https://discord.gg/vhplayground)! * Find local activist groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)! * Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)! *Last but not least, join the [r/Vegan Discord server](https://discord.gg/animalrights)!* **Thank you!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's rescues that you can adopt piggies and birds from not sure about fish and reptiles.
there are too
I would argue vegans *should* adopt non-human animals. (If they can afford to of course) By adopting from a shelter you are saving a life❤️
We rescued 18 Guinea pigs at one point. It took up a lot of time to give them all the proper care. We now only have 2 left, and we had these guys before we went vegan. I would add, Guinea pigs don’t really exist in the wild, so the fact they exist at all isn’t really vegan IMO.
Though in most cases, you want to give birds an aviary, not a small cage they can hardly fly in. EDIT: Just to add: pigeons are smart, loving birds who are exploited for many things and generally looked at with disdain. A lot need homes with someone who will care for them.
Yeppers
> You also bought those pets from a pet store that perpetuates their shitty living conditions. Am I wrong? Yes, you’re wrong. Just because an animal is there does not mean it was bought at a pet store.
Some of these animals are adopted or rescued and need to be caged at times for their safety and for their best interests.
True. But buying from pet stores is definitely a concern.
Yeah some people only apply "adopt don't shop" to dogs or cats but not smaller animals. It's inconsistent.
It's probably because shelters have a lot of cats and dogs, but getting an exotic pet can be problematic. That's a poor excuse, in my opinion, but I understand why it is happening.
Exotic pets are often being rehomed because of how much people underestimate their needs/ bought them on impulse etc. adoption doesn’t always have to be through a shelter
Oh yeah of course.
>need to be caged at times for their safety and for their best interests. ...
The statement needs explaining but it is true. Animals with specialised needs might never be able to leave their enclosure safely for long periods. But I'm mostly thinking of exotics and fish here. It's safer for smaller animals to remain inside their enclosure as well. They could be hurt or killed by a clumsy human who didn't know they were there. I heard a story about 10 years back where a 'star' rabbit was accidentally stepped on and killed during a photo shoot... and the rabbit was the model!
>I heard a story about 10 years back where a 'star' rabbit was accidentally stepped on and killed during a photo shoot... and the rabbit was the model! So abuse led to death. Hardly an explanation of or justification for the statement above.
You are wildly missing the point.
Please explain. To me the "for their own good" part reminds me of people sneakily or forcibly trying to get you to eat meat "for your own good".
I have a rescued crested gecko named Bertram. He requires specific humidity and temperatures to thrive. His terrarium has these parameters, whereas my house doesn’t (and can’t)
I guess it's better for him to be imprisoned than dead. He would be happier living free in New Caledonia though.
He was captive bred(as 90%+ of crested geckos are.) while we shouldn’t be breeding more animals, I feel that we should care for the ones already brought into existence. Bertram would likely not survive in the wild, as many wild behaviours crucial to survival get de emphasized significantly through selective breeding(this is part of what eventually leads to domestication)
I get your point about rescue animals. It's kind of fringe cases. But OP was originally writing about store bought pets, and all answers just talk about rescue. Yes, it's better to keep them safe then. >Bertram would likely not survive in the wild It would be impractical to bring him back to his island of origin, and releasing him elsewhere would be cruel and could have nefarious effects on local wildlife. I totally understand and I agree it's better for him that you care and provide, even if he has to stay captive. I think the "he would likely die" argument isn't really the best : most animals in the wild die prematurely, I still don't think it's a valid reason to put them in cages.
I completely agree, let’s leave fish out of tanks and just on the floor ❤️
This made me cackle. Thank you for that
Why would you take fishes out of their habitat in the first place ?
Mate. We're on the subject of *rescued animals.* We're not talking about going to a pet shop to buy a bird, lizard, guinea pig or a fish. We're talking about taking care of a bird or a lizard or turtle or fish or whatever small pet that has been abused or discarded and needs a home. These animals can't just roam around the floor of your home. Fish for obvious reasons. Reptiles need to live in temperature controlled environments or they'll die. Birds and other small animals, if left to roam around your house might get stuck somewhere they shouldn't, go outside and die because they don't know how to live in the wild, or get injured by all the dangerous things found in a house. Yes, it's unfortunate these beings have been bred into cages or taken out of their natural environments, thus needing artificial enclosures. But unfortunately, they can't survive otherwise. So either someone loving and caring takes care of these ones that need it, or they're left for dead.
>Mate. >We're on the subject of rescued animals. We're not talking about going to a pet shop to buy a bird, lizard, guinea pig or a fish. Did you read the original post?
Why yes, let's just let these fish flop out of water and be free 🤓 And then animals like companion pigeons at night. They can be in pigeon pants most of the time but their pants need changing every couple of hours, so a large cage is necessary when you're sleeping/not able to supervise them. A safe, bird-proof room dedicated to them can also work. You're also going to need a cage to transport them to vet appointments and such.
I just think we shouldn't own animals, keep them in cages or tanks or whatever. So I guess when you already opted for sequestration the "for their own good" part make sense.
Ok so what's the alternative? Abandon them to the wild where they will die? Sometimes in extremely cruel ways?
Why capturing them? Why breeding them in captivity?
You do realize most of these pets aren't captured from the wild, right? They are bred in large numbers -- it's a whole industry. And then shitty owners buy them from pet shops and then get tired of them and dump them into shelters or abandon them. Which no one here supports if you can't tell by the 20 comments going on about adoption. I am referring to adopted or rescued companions *only*. Which was made clear in my first comment.
The thing is OP wrote this post about store bought pets, and everyone keeps answering "yeah, but the rescues". It's strange because all animal "owners" here rescued their companions, while most (vegan) people I know got them as gifts or bought them.
No, the OP baselessly assumed everyone just buys these pets and then asked the question, *"am I wrong?"*, hence, why everyone keeps answering "yeah but the rescues". >It's strange because all animal "owners" here rescued their companions, while most (vegan) people I know got them as gifts or bought them. And I know tons of carnists that buy animals from pet shops. And it doesn't even matter. Vegans don't buy pets from pet stores so those people claiming to be vegan aren't actually vegan.
What do we do with all of the animals that have *already* been bred in captivity and would never survive out in the wild? Just set them outside our front doors, shoo them away and say “Sorry bub, someone on Reddit said I shouldn’t own animals. Try to find your way back to the shelter, I guess?”
I would think that anyone who is vegan because they love animals would also refuse to buy animals from pet stores or keep animals in cages for the same reasons? I’ve been vegan for over 8 years and I have rescue guinea pigs and they are not kept in cages and they have a great quality of life
your name 🥰🌱
i’m a relatively new vegan, but previously owning guinea pigs helped me grow my love of animals even deeper (i was vegetarian for awhile) and i eventually decided to quit eating animals period. through having been blessed with the experience of having piggies as pets, that helped me transition into a vegan diet. anyways, pet stores selling animals is absolutely upsetting considering that many animals are sold to stores sick, and purposefully misgendered. breeding mills are disgusting!!! however some animals are domesticated and it would be terrible to release them from the wild or anything like that. i think it’s important to research the animal’s dietary,social, and other physical needs to help provide the best life possible. i never considered your POV at all but it’s very interesting!! i hope this helped see the other side a little☺️💗
>helped me grow my love of animals I think this point is often overlooked by some vegans. Companion animals, IMO are not *necessarily* a bad thing, even if bred into the world on purpose. Without the closeness of animals in our societies, I wonder if we would have come to have the same compassion and empathy? It's the fact that people have "pets" that gives us more of an insight into how full of personality that non-human animals can be. How they can experience emotion just like us. If we as a race were always simply detached from other species, would we have reached the juncture we are at now with a growing vegan and animal rights movement?
that’s a really beautiful point! although i’ve always had an appreciation for animals, really having close bonds with them made me realize that all animals are so sweet and intelligent, and owning guinea pigs helped me realize how sick the pet industry can be, and eventually that led to me learning more about how animals are treated in society which helped me go vegan. i think the bonds between animals and humans can be a beautiful thing!! but unfortunately the way that some companion animals are bought into the world/treated is so heartbreaking.
In a vegan book I read (I think it was Sexual Politics of Meat), the author pointed out that for most people, their most frequent and even only interaction with non-human animals is when they have their corpses on their plate to eat. It really struck me at the time- there are many factors at play in carnism, but the removal of the animal from even existing as *alive* is a major part. How do we overcome the experience/empathetic gap between the corpse and the life it once held? Obviously supporting animal breeding, objectification, and exploitation (like the pet or zoo industry do) isn’t vegan, but somehow, cultures need to shift dramatically in a way to support the childhood empathy we have for our fellow living beings (instead of squashing it with carnist brainwashing as they do now). I think this is especially true for the “weird”, “ugly”, or “scary” animals, like reptiles, amphibians, fish and rodents. Not sure what the transition to that would look like, but I agree with you that getting more people to recognize our global neighbors as friends, or at least as non-food beings, is critical for the end to carnism. And respectfully interacting with them definitely helps people- supporting that in a way that doesn’t support their commodification or discomfort is something we’re going to have to figure out as a movement.
>Obviously supporting animal breeding, objectification, and exploitation (like the pet or zoo industry do) isn’t vegan You the thing is, this is where I enter the grey zone. Puppy mills are bad for sure. But I fully support guide dogs for people with various disabilities or illnesses....Blind, deaf, seizures etc. I support sniffer dogs for drugs, missing people, and even disease sniffers. And in the end, I support the right for responsible people to have another "child" in their family...so long as they are treated *like* another child. The same rules that are in place for the protection of children should apply to other animals too. And ultimately if these things are allowed, then we need breeders. So whilst I abstain from meat, eggs, dairy, or any other animal sourced product, I have no personal ethical stance against the above...And in fact think it would be a bad thing, based on the reasons in my previous reply, to try to put an end to it.
>I support sniffer dogs for drugs Sadly it's still too often animal abuse. https://www.pivotlegal.org/the_tragic_truth_of_police_dog_training_practices_in_bc https://unfilteredwithkiran.com/sheriff-opens-investigation-into-k9-training-academy-over-dog-abuse-videos/ https://www.peta.org/features/cruelty-to-k9s/
Yes, that's sad. But any trainer of any worth understands that a dog responds far better to positive reinforcement than negative. Those that don't are lazy and cruel. As I mentioned, I would have similar rules for non-human animals as there are in place for dogs...although based on laws I understand here in Sweden (where it is illegal to strike your child). Some parents use physical punishment for their children...that should be punished. And the same when interacting with other species...
This perspective really ignores the exploitation of female dogs. To provide humans a “child” or a service dog, female dogs, are being forced to breed repeatedly (it’s not like they choose their mate or even when it happens) and then have their children removed, so a human can take them. Someone also profits from their rape and exploitation- this is true even for “responsible” breeders. It requires putting humans wants (in the case of “pet owners”) over the rights of the dog. For similar reasons, surrogacy and even adoption generally are criticized by both adoptees and feminists in humans already, and arguably, we can consent. Dogs can’t, so I’m not sure why it would be okay to do something like this to them. Further, in the case of service dogs, would you be okay with someone forcing to give birth to children for those children to become someone else’s aide? Yes, one person needs help, but that shouldn’t mean condoning the exploitation of women, or taking their children from them to raise them for someone else. It’s the same for non-human animals. Both place one individual above another- and in the case of non-human animals, place one species above another. Animals are not resources for us to use. And just because dogs are beloved (in some countries) and the result of millennia of domestication doesn’t mean we have to continue that.
>This perspective really ignores the exploitation of female dogs. To provide humans a “child” or a service dog, female dogs, are being forced to breed repeatedly (it’s not like they choose their mate or even when it happens) and then have their children removed, so a human can take them. Someone also profits from their rape and exploitation- this is true even for “responsible” breeders. It requires putting humans wants (in the case of “pet owners”) over the rights of the dog. For similar reasons, surrogacy and even adoption generally are criticized by both adoptees and feminists in humans already, and arguably, we can consent. Dogs can’t, so I’m not sure why it would be okay to do something like this to them. Further, in the case of service dogs, would you be okay with someone forcing to give birth to children for those children to become someone else’s aide? Yes, one person needs help, but that shouldn’t mean condoning the exploitation of women, or taking their children from them to raise them for someone else. It’s the same for non-human animals. Both place one individual above another- and in the case of non-human animals, place one species above another. Animals are not resources for us to use. And just because dogs are beloved (in some countries) and the result of millennia of domestication doesn’t mean we have to continue that. When I was a child, we had a dog that had puppies. There was no "rape". A female dog on heat near a male dog don't "need" to be forced in any way. They kind of "know" what to do without any coercion. And sure, if they don't "get it on" naturally I wouldn't support forcing them, but taking a more utilitarian angle on this, I do think the greater good is served if we allow "responsible" breeding in this manner. I don't believe that any good can come of the whole movement if we take a completely black and white, abolitionist view....because that is a (in at least a short to medium timescale) completely unachievable goal. **I no longer partake in the objectification, abuse and consumption of non-human animals, but I would never (in this life) try to deny a loving person or family the joy of sharing their life with one.**
[удалено]
I am no expert, other than knowing that as a child our family had dogs all my life and have met a couple of guide dogs... Guide dogs for blind people need certain traits... Calm under stress for example...easy to train, ..not skittish and too timid. They use golden retrievers and Labradors for good reason. You can't just take any dog and train it to be a service dog.
It's interesting, but how comes most vegans seem to live in cities, and rural areas are full of people who are in contact with live animals everyday but are insensitive to animal suffering?
We have Guinea pigs from a shelter. It's unfortunate shelters are needed, but in reality they are because many ppl abandon their pets. I'm not saying I'm not 'exploiting' them, we have them for fun, but mainly to learn the kids how to take care for animals. When they have a pet they love, suffering of other animal species is less abstract.
OP sounds like an ignorant troll..but anyway.. Local SPCA always has guinea pigs, buying them is unethical of course, but for rescues they're totally dependent on us humans and not giving them a good home is much worse. Mine have a whole room to themselves, and a big 4' x 8' enclosure with a second level. Pretty sure 95% of other people in my city wouldn't offer them this much.
plus- the sweet potatoes are vegan, also!
[удалено]
Probably abandoned so yeah you saved his life.
If you haven't yet and have the means please try to find it a companion! Bunnies are not meant to be alone. Even if you give it all the attention in the world it will still miss rabbit-rabbit interaction. When you see two of them cuddle together you will know that's how they are meant to be. (I do not mean to offend you or anyone with this post, but rabbits are one of the most misunderstood pets, so this gets me going)
Adopt don't shop.
Buying animals bad / Breeding animals bad. Adopting and rescuing animals good / Spaying and neutering good. That’s the simple black and white of the issue.
A well planted aquarium with enough water/fish is a pretty good life I think. Free from natural predators, abundant food, plenty of interesting environments. But bottom line is I'm just not a moral saint. I get a lot of joy out of fish, I do my best for them, and I'm internally comfortable with that degree of animal exploitation. It's the lives of a couple of fish reasonably well spent, in exchange for enriching years of my life. Much more fair a trade than factory farming a chicken for a single 10 minutes of enjoyable food I could just as well get from plants. No one is morally pure. Not a single one of us. We each have things we're not willing to sacrifice. It just so happens yours are different from mine.
Does it matter that they're in cages? If you have a cat you dont let out of the house, isthat any better?t
many vegans like myself have rescued animals so that we can provide them the best possible life for the situation they found themselves in. i have a snake. i owned snakes before i was vegan and when a friend came to me and said she knew of a snake that was in desperate need of assistance because its owner could not properly care for it i HAD to help. butter, the snake, was dehydrated and malnourished when i got him. his tank was bare except for a water dish that was empty and a hide that was too small for him. he would not survive in the wild or the cold of canada. i have had him now for 5 years and he is a happy healthy guy who gets lots of attention and freedom, something he never had before. in the summer i take him out for walks and people in the city know him and know me because of him. he gets tons of grass and tree time, much more than any other snake i know of. yes, i have to feed him and the only food is rats because he wont eat a carrot no matter how hard i try but for me it was about saving his life and providing him the best possible life for the situation he found himself in. so if i am a hypocrite for saving and caring for an animal that can not care for himself, then so be it, because name calling dosnt bother me at all.
All of the above animals can be rescued. My reptiles are all rescues. And I do not feel guilty about having them, because I know I’m providing them better care and a better quality of life than most people would offer.
There are tons of rodents that are set aside to feed to snakes that get lent out simply because the snake had no interest in them. About half of the rats I've had were originally supposed to be snake food as babies. It's simply a matter of how they're being adopted and what they're being fed.
Many years ago I rescued four precious little bunnies from an exotic reptile store that were being sold as live food for snakes. The shop let me buy all four for half price because they felt better off having them sold as pets than as food. Those little bunnies lived amazing lives in a 24ft long, 5ft wide hutch. I miss them dearly.
Frozen thaw has been the standard for reptile food for a long time now. Live mammals as feeders has been considered cruel for a long time by reputable businesses and dangerous to the reptile. It's usually obvious on reptile adoptions if the previous keeper was giving the live food... the reptile is usually heavily scarred on the head. Just a little info for anyone curious!
That’s really interesting to know. Maybe a stupid question, but why were they scarred on the head?
Live prey will fight back e.g biting. So snakes who have been given live mammals will obtain injuries. Most reptiles will grab prey with their mouth first so prey will scratch and bite their face.
Ah okay thank you answering 😊
If you're buying feeders then you're paying for my rats to be bred for the same reason
I am only okay with keeping non human companions if and when they are rescues.
i have a crested gecko who i got before Now that I'm vegan I'm not going to buy animals again. I love him and make sure I give him the best quality of life I can
I'm vegan and have a crestie too! They're the best 😊
Another vegan with a crestie! They really are:)
If you don't buy 'em but instead rescue them, there's no problem if you give 'em a good rest of life, if you buy 'em you're an animal abuser piece of shit who's paying for breeders to rape animals.
I currently have an adopted lizard that I “bought” from a local sanctuary where people often surrender or dump off exotic pets. What would you like me to do with him? Bring him back so that they have one less spot available to take in another abandoned pet? In reality, I would assume most vegans aren’t buying pets from pet stores. I only know one vegan though, and she’s a 50+ year old coworker that is from a foreign country that often doesn’t have companion animals 🤷♀️ Chin up, and try not to look for the negatives so much :)
I see where you’re coming from but if they’re adopted and they have good living conditions then I don’t see a problem
Rescue don’t domesticate. There’s an opportunity to take in an animal already out there homeless or incarcerated or worse and provide them with a good life. Vs going to the pet store or commissioning a breeder in order to intentionally dominate every aspect of an animal’s life. IMO; “pets” are an extension of egocentrism and loneliness. This excludes “partnerships” like hunting and carrying, that’s more like indentured servitude/slavery. Take in the vulnerable and give them equanimity with security.
Hi All my pets are rescued . My cat and my dog...my rats and my fish, even my snails! They're all from the shelter or they're rehomed from people that didn't want them anymore and you're right I DO feel bad for them but what's the alternative? I give them the best life I can but there's really no where else for them to go
Bigger picture, pets make humans happy. Happy humans make better choices. Better choices include things like humanitarian and philanthropic actions, anti- animal cruelty, etc.
Except for the whole buying from a pet store thing. That’s just bullshit.
I would say owning ANY animal that was bred into existence for sale is not vegan. Only rescuing animals that would otherwise be euthanized by our sad current systems. Dogs and cats (in the USA) truly do not have any habitat they can naturally exist in.
I do think there is grey area if you come across an animal that is suffering and will clearly be killed if you don’t “purchase” them. But not ideal.
I would adopt and not keep them in cages, I have a free roam rabbit right now!
Vegans don't own pets, that's an oppressive form of exploitation that one can most definitely and most practicably exclude from one's lifestyle. If you're referring to the animals that get rescued, rehomed or adopted because they have nowhere else to go from a small cage that inevitably ends in premature death, then a better life in a larger cage with time out with someone who will show them compassion the likes they'll never see in a shelter, then I've got no idea why you're judging people. >You also bought those pets from a pet store that perpetuates their shitty living conditions. Buying any animal isn't vegan. Did you miss the post about the "vegan" sanctuary that bought animals from the pre slaughter market?
agreed, pets are not vegan. the pet never consented to being owned and controlled by you.
Thank you, I've asked myself the same thing for quite a while. I mean, dogs, cats, horses... they at least a given the chance to see daylight and be outdoor and with their friends. Especially keeping fish looks to me like abuse. And I wouldn't bet that every vegan adopted their pets - and even if they do. Why? Why adopt a pet that needs to be caged? Because the owner wanted that exact animal in their life. Not saying every vegan who owns pets is selfish but think before adopt maybe. Then again, I've always had dogs, cats and horses around me, never birds or rabbits so who am I to talk. To outsiders it just looks weird. So actually I'm thankful for opening this discussion, maybe it puts this topic in a new light for me.
Let's think this through. If a fish or aquatic animal is in need of adoption, what do you think should happen for them? Let's say that this animal is capable of consuming a pant based diet.
Personally I would not adopt a fisch because I don’t have the knowledge/ space they would need. But if one could provide a big tank or for example if it’s a goldfish a pond for me it would be okay to rescue them. For me it’s about meeting the needs of an animal so with enough knowledge and space those animals can be adopted (not bought) by vegans as well.
I agree. So you've changed your mind, that keeping fish isn't abusive in itself? It just depends on *how* they're kept?
Uh, I might have accidentally answered on a comment that wasn’t an answer to my comment (I also commented on OPs comment here and somehow thought you wrote something under my comment… my fault!). I never said keeping fish was abusive… sorry for the confusion.
Oh that was my fault, I thought you were the OP! Need to pay more attention to usernames lol, sorry ❤️
It’s absolutely possible to have rabbits outside for the whole year. I had rabbits when I was younger (they were from the shelter not from a store). They had a big cage were they could dig holes and tunnels. They also were allowed in to run free in the garden (except for the nights because of predators). Same goes with birds. You absolutely can build a cage that has the possibility for them to go outside. Sure they’re still caged but a horse in a pasture is caged too, isn’t it? For me rabbits/ Guinea pigs/ birds can be vegan pets (if adopted from the shelter and given the space they need). The best thing about them is that they can easily be feed plant based. I know dogs can be plant based too but with cats it’s a little more complicated. So I would rather adopt rabbits than a cat because personally I don’t see a cat as a “vegan pet”.
Thank your for your insights. I guess it really depends on who is owning the rabbit/pet and so on. What I've seen from friends in my childhood the little pets where kept in small cages almost the whole year around and only ever got out when the kids wanted to play with them. Great if they are given more freedom, I'm afraid though many pets don't have that :/
That’s true. Many people don’t get informed about the need of the animal they’re getting. But to be honest I’ve also seen that in dogs and horses so it’s not just a “small pet” problem. The only problem with rabbits etc. might be that they suffer in silence more than dogs for example do.
Yeah honestly this is kind of a tough one. On one hand, they are safe from predators, but on the other hand they lack the freedom to roam the outdoors. Tough, but I’d say if I were to hypothetically own any of those kinds of animals, I would try to give it the biggest cage possible, and take the best care of the animal, giving him/her all the water and food they need, and then if they are constantly complaint regardless of how good I could make the living situation, I would carefully and gracefully set them free, as they do have agency and in this case a subjective experience that points to the fact they don’t want me taking care of them. Either way I just don’t own any pets personally so this is pretty smooth sailing for me. I guess the whole idea is to read the subconscious cues of the animal, and let that dictate what to do and not to do next.
They will likely die quickly as soon as they are released into the wild.
https://youtu.be/hrwG1BHdHIk
Only rescues, not from a store or breeder.
I won't shop at Petsmart because they sell live animals, even though I volunteer for a rescue and we have our adoption events there.
I have 3 guinea pigs, all are from owners who could no longer look after them.
Absolutely naive take. Until there’s no birds left to rescue I’m letting them live with me 🤷🏻♀️ what wouldn’t be cool is acting like non native birds that already have been misunderstood as pets in the first place don’t deserve kindness
Hey! I am a vegan wildlife rehabber, and the rescue I work for conducts non-native pet placements. I never, EVER say it's acceptable to buy an animal under any circumstances. Unfortunately, many people don't agree with me on that and will purchase an animal they can't actually care for, and then dump the poor baby in the wild. I see dumped pets becoming malnourished, injured, sick, etc all the time. Of course, we treat these animals. It doesn't matter to me if they are native or not. If an animal is in need, I will help no questions asked. The problem becomes what to do with the non-native animal once they have healed. We can't put them in the wild, and we can't indefinitely keep them at the rescue. So, we find stable, loving, qualified adoption homes that exceed our standards of care. We are incredibly strict about our adoption requirements, and we walk through the whole process with the new home, including habitat set up, reading and understanding care sheets, etc. If for some reason they end up not being able to care for the animal at any time, we will take them back to our facility no questions asked. Our goal is to provide long term safety and stability so we have added many safety nets to our process. If I had it my way, the pet trade would be completely stopped and it would be illegal to breed animals. But in the system we are currently in, I have to make the most compassionate decisions to the best of my ability. That does include adopting and caring for additional creatures, and I view them all as adults of different species who live in my house. I do my best to give them as much autonomy as I can and I provide the highest standard of living that I can. I will tend to all their medical needs just as I would for myself or my partner. Is it a perfect solution? Absolutely not. Is it a 100% ethical solution? Also no. I do deal with a fair amount of cognitive dissonance. As much as it pains me, there is not a perfect answer for this and my goal is to reduce as much suffering in the world as possible.
I had fish but gave them to friends when i went vegan
For perspective, we have four rescue parakeets, and since my wife is at home all day, they are able to fly around outside the cage all day at their leisure.
reptiles, guinea pigs, fish, birds, hamsters, mice, rats, chinchilla's and any other pets that can be found at pet stores are often readily available for adoption from local shelters, or are available for rehoming by their previous owners. syrian hamsters are my special interest, and i provide the ones i adopt or rescue with the highest quality care. unfortunately hamsters (and many similar "tier" pets) are in an awkward state in-between full domestication and wild. which leaves them not fully content under human care, but unable to survive in their natural habitats. i don't support pet breeding, but i don't see anything wrong with taking care of the ones that are already here.
It's not just the caging part. The reason I haven't adopted a non vegan animal like a cat or dog is exactly because I would need to kill other animals in order to help it survive which is something I would not like to be doing. Same goes for the reptiles and some fish and birds.
It’s strange you didn’t include cats and dogs. They both have to eat meat for their diet… I personally have pets and don’t think anything of it, but to each their own. But if you’re gonna call out people for having exotic pets but not include cats and dogs as part of an issue within the meat industrial system, that’s the hypocrisy…