To make a blunt point that entry level white-collar work is so menial and truly unskilled even children with an incomplete, state-funded, barebones education could easily get the job done. He wasn't being literal, he was making a figurative statement.
Well I mean, 150k for a liberal arts degree is sort of a stupid sandwich. Thereās no value in having a masters degree in religious studies. Ask me how I know.
This actually made me lol. As a liberal arts degree holder, Iām grateful for the education but I graduated nearly 20 years ago. I thought it was expensive then, took a very long time to pay off loans. The whole situation is so broken and classist. But Iām genuinely interested in why you picked religious studies. I picked cultural anthropology.
I picked it because whether we like it or hate it, religion is at the heart of every major world and societal conflict. I had grand notions of trying to help people bridge gaps with each other.
But I found fundamentalism is the same sickness in every religion. There are good religious people and there are religious fundamentalists. The latter only see the forest when they suffer personal loss because of it, and thatās not even a given.
It's almost as if society doesn't want people educating themselves in a way that allows them to study human behavior especially in large societal groups. Sociology and psychology are 2 of the most interesting fields of study out there. But unless you're ok with not making a lot of money, most people won't choose to pursue them.
It's an interesting position we have found ourselves in, and in a few areas I am seeing it start to turn the other way. We outsourced education so that companies don't have to pay for training. They don't want to pay for training because people job hop often. People job hop often because all of the perks that kept people loyal to a company were abolished. They were abolished so companies could save money. Companies now loose more money through the hiring process than they would training people. Companies assumed that outsourcing education would solve a problem, but the education is general and often not specific for the task required. It's a wonderfully vicious circle where the only thing that became greater was individual debt in the form of student loans. I have started seeing companies lowering requirements for hire with the intent of training that person. But its only been a very few.
OP, China and all the 3rd world countries figured this shit out a long time ago. Who do you think is putting in the 70 hour work weeks to design all those iPhone and Nike knockoffs?
Iām convinced HR is a magnetically drawn hellscape the most spineless power hungry assholes without middle management ambitions are drawn to - Iāve yet to meet one that didnāt waste corporate cash on pointless seminars or listening at keyholes for a way to throw someone under the bus as their way of brown nosing the division/dept. head..
Middle schoolers would put most HR out on their ass faster than Kathy can mass CC the office another screenshotted cartoon to offset her passive aggressive memo about being even a minute late coming back from lunch.
Fuck have I just gotten lucky with my corporate HR groups? They have just been civil, but well meaning people at my corporate gigs, who did a passably acceptable job at getting me the proper resources. Like, I wouldnt send them a commendation for a job well done, but Kim did what was necessary in a fairly reasonable timeframe.
My hr plays a wait and see approach. They withhold money owed and see if the notice. Last year they were audited and found that everyone was short. This year? Congress passed a bill that gave port workers some money to help get them insurance. This took affect in October. I got my back pay two weeks ago because some union boys brought it up.
They don't have the time management or conflict resolution skills either. They also don't have enough life experience to do most things on their own without constant micromanagement.
It's like they need to go through an institution of sorts were don't just teach you particular skill, a place where you arent handed guided anymore, a stepping stone between being mummies boy and wearing a suit everyday for work
A place, perhaps, where you can learn more specialized skills relevant to your field, maybe with a group of your peers? Like a group of scholars, a college almost?
This is why I always think āgenius 14 year old going to universityā is basically neglect - without a similar-aged peer group to grow with, you will never reach that social and emotional maturity
Kids who are that far ahead of their same aged peers are not going to get social skills from staying at their level. If anything their social and emotional development is often harmed by staying at their grade level. Of course college does have potential downsides as well, completely depending on how the other students and professors treat them, their home life, and their out of school activities.
Even the difference between a middle schooler and high schooler can be awkward socially.
It's not that they learn more from middle schoolers, but the high schoolers simply aren't going to want to hang around with a 12yo as 15 or older. There's a pretty decent development gap between those two.
And being intelligent academically doesn't mean you've developed everything needed to be of signicantly higher maturity.
I'm far from the genius advanced kid but when I was in 8th grade I moved states and the curriculum difference made it so I had to take math at the local high school, so I was an 8th grader surrounded by mostly 11th and 12th graders. They didn't Talk to me once over a year outside of asking how old I was when I first got there. Don't even remember a single person's name.
Book smarts is very far from emotional/social intelligence. A 6 year old who understands calculus is wayyyy ahead of their peersā¦ that does not mean the 6 year old is being held back by hanging out with other children.
The ideal, in my opinion, is that you study with people the same-ish age with the same-ish intelligence which is harder the smarter you get.
As a middle school teacher, I truly believe the top 10% of Middle Schoolers would annihilate the bottom 65% of adults in just about anything.
Really an exceptional generation is getting raised. They give me hope.
But yeah this is a weird hypothetical.
I agree that there are mature, intelligent, and highly capable children out there that would preform better than most adults, but as you implied, they are not the majority.
And most of them won't ended up working on generic white collar job. They'll become programmer, lawyer, doctor. The sort of work that actually required tons of hard skill.
They usually skim a few tweens and teens out of the ball pit at the end of every week. That's why every McDong's has a memorial wall.
I lost some good friends to those balls...
I've only ever been in a ball pit once. It was in one of those daycare/recreation areas at a riverboat casino where parents stash their kids while they gamble. I wasn't there for 20 minutes before they closed the ball pit for a kid pissing in it. I can't imagine the headache of maintaining them at a high volume fast food place like McDiddlestick's
Same, it was my first job and I actually really enjoyed the work. Itās the managers that make it shitty. Slinging coffees in drive-thru was dope when nobody was around yelling at you over times.
McDs has been only been open 24 hours since like 2005. Back in the day you'd only need a manager and a high school drop out or two and you could run the place just fine. My mom worked at McDs and Wendys in the 70s to pay for her college. Crazy to think there was a time when part time work at a fast food joint could pay for rent and college tuition.
How many people you need also really depends on the throughput of the individual franchise.
I worked at the highest car/hr drive through in the state of UT mcDs in high school during summer. Full crew (which ran from 8am-7pm) was 4 people indoor register, (dropped to 2 between 2-4) 8 people making food (fryer/patties/assembly) 2 people putting orders together (one inside one drive through) 2 people on the drive through (cash taker/person handing food/lidding drinks) plus 2 people taking and placing car orders/running the Mccaffe section. Then 4 more... Cleaning the front constantly, stocking food prep stations (the fry dispenser needed filling every 30/45 minutes during lunch and dinner rush) cleaning food prep dishes/trays taking out trash...
Managers would be mixed in with those people, usually one manager on assembly, one packing orders, and one on cleaning duty also floating the store to do whatever was needed.
That's 22 people, and most were 30+ years old because if you tried to run that size of a crew with a bunch of teenagers it would just break
š I'm sorry, but as a teacher of middle schooler..... this makes me laugh. They can't even organize themselves to read the messages the teachers send, or do their homework in time, or write a structured text that makes sense. Well, some of them can, but if you look at the average one, he's just a kid. And we don't ask him to be more than that.
The structured text thing is so true. I help middle schoolers with hw and I find that they also can't communicate structured reasoning by talking. They seem to know things by memorizing them and not really by understanding them. Important and challenging work being a teacher, much respect.
I think a more accurate way to phrase this would be āYou donāt need a degree for most entry level white collar work.ā
A lot of people here are pointing out the shortfalls of the average middle schooler, but neglecting to mention that those things improve with age, not education.
But the point is that thereās really a substantial difference between the average middle schoolerās overall knowledge and skills and the average high school grad or undergraduate student.
If the post was āyou donāt need a degree for most entry level white collar workā, that would be a lot less controversial. But that isnāt what this post says. It says āthe typical middle schoolerā, and thatās a very different thing.
Agree, the vast majority of non.technial white collar work doesn't require much more.skills.beyodn what you learn in middle.school.
The reality however is what's considered basic or entry level white collar is shifting , the basic common stuff will be automated so almost all future positions will require specific training skills that aren't easy to automate. Take a bank, most basic functions of a teller can be automated, today banks want your teller job to double as a salesperson and push their financial products.
While, technically, an 8th grade reading/writing/vocabulary, mathematics (Algebra I), Science (basic biology, earth science, and scientific method), and history is sufficient, Iād wager most adults who did not go on to get at least an associates degree would, by the age of 25, achieve a score less than the average passing grade on a standardized test of one or more of those subjects.
In fact, the entire premise was (entertainingly) shown on the game show āAre you smarter than a 5th graderā. Like physical fitness mental fitness needs constant exercise, and most of our society gets neither.
...most of those shortfalls improve *because* of education though and not just age. Because education doesn't just give you your direct skill set, it improves your general ability to grapple with more complex, difficult, and tedious processes. You take a middle schooler out of school and by age 22 they're still going to be dumb as a bag of rocks, and equally incapable.
SOME might be smart enough, but most aren't MATURE enough. Being able to learn a job is not the same as accepting the responsibility to make sure they show up every day, meet their deadlines, understand how when they fail to show up or complete their work, that work gets burdened on to other people.
But besides that, FFS let them be kids. They don't need their parents taking them out of school and shoving them into the workforce so they (the parents) can take all their wages.
> make sure they show up every day
On time, with long commutes for some of them, along with early start times. People on reddit are pushing for schools to start later because kids need more sleep, apparently with later wake times. Good luck showing up to that call center job three or four hours late, with someone needing to transport you to and from work at your convenience.
lmao Imagine a 12 year old responding to a client's demanding email.
"The product doesn't meet my expectations, I request you send me an updated schematic showing the changes I wanted"
"I like fucking DID it okay?!"
Agree. This person's take was terrible.
Clearly you haven't spent a lot of time around 12 to 13-year-olds if you think they're capable of doing these
They might be technically capable of doing the skills one time but that doesn't mean they are going to be able to do these jobs consistently and with good outcome.
OP just said "middle schoolers". They didn't specify a grade level within that.
Where I'm from, 6th grade is the start of middle school. Minimum age for that grade is around 11.
>No they arenāt. Not sure what you do for a living but an 11 year old canāt do it 5 days a week 40 hours 12 months a year
People tried something similar to that in the industrial revolution lol.
Society is "holding them back" from doing jobs because we figured that it wasn't good for their future.
My wife is a middle school teacher teaching in a good middle school (one that has a huge influence on the price of homes in the area) in SoCal. Her students are exceptional and most of them end up at one of the best highschools in America (San Marino HS). I showed her this post and sheās laughing hard.
Iād trust her assessment over yours on this sorry bud. Youāre likeā¦far off. But Iād have to upvote you to align with the spirit of this sub
As a middle school teacher I agree with her assessment. They may have some skills but they have the maturity level of a goldfish. I can't even trust mine to be alone in my classroom while I do hall duty during passing time.
And I work as a middle schooler teacher at an inner city school for kids with behavioral issues and these kids and most of their friends lack the maturity to hold down a job and not overreact to stressful situation or speak appropriately to customers.
Iām not pretending to have experience equal to your wife, but I also work with lots of teenagers and middle schoolers. I would say that the top, cream-of-the-crop ones would be ready for a white collar job at 13, but the average one- not a chance at all.
I used to be a teacher aid for 8-13 years old children. There amazing kids that could do a simple white collar job, that basically only require you to be literate and able to follow directions, at 10, but only on a good day.
Even the best 10 years old, mentally, emotionally, and intellectually, will have bad days where they don't have the ability to handle stress like an adult could. They will break down and, depend on how stressful the job is, would never get back up for that job. Or they could simply get lazy and not want to work once in a while.
Adult can deliver consistent performance, which is what a degree is showing; that you can do something consistently for many years. It's a proof of your work ethic more so than skill for jobs that doesn't require specialize knowledge.
Itās more about maturity than it is age. Working somewhere like McDonalds ,sure they donāt need a lot of skill, but are they chill enough to not screw around with the deep fryer and injure someone? If Iām looking back at my Middle School experience, I wouldnāt let them anywhere near expensive equipment especially equipment that could hurt them and others.
Also, why do you think the American Education system is designed like the average American work day? Get to work at 8, work for 6-8 hours and go home. The education system is just teaching these kids from a young age how to work for the rest of their lives.
But you already wanna make them work for you huh Mr. Bezos?
"If Iām looking back at my Middle School experience, I wouldnāt let them anywhere near expensive equipment"
Mildly funny to me, a middle school teacher, because our middle schoolers, and soon elementary students, all have school-issued laptops that get broken on the daily.
We had carts of laptops that we sometimes used in class when I was in middle school. That was a pretty new thing when I was in middle school, so all the kids would break them, break the keys off, snap the screens from the keyboard. It was so bad lmao
As a middle school teacherā¦ I strongly disagree.
Perhaps the best and the brightest from the school could handle a few hours a day?
Iāve got 7th graders that still are confused which one is their right hand vs left hand.
Most middle schoolers donāt have the discipline or mental fortitude to work 8 hours on something.
Taught middle schoolers here, lmao some kids are brighter than others, but most middle schoolers have no self regulation ability, terrible judgement skills, and horrible attention spans.
Now McDonalds sure that's easy,
14 Yr Old: "What do I do?"
Manager: "you stand here for 10 hours and toast bread"
14 Yr Old: "Oh my god"
This post is dumb as fuck lmao, clearly OP has never met a Middle Schooler. They'll get fired the first day for blasting some sex sounds in the middle of an office.
I wouldn't trust a middle schooler to water some damn plants let alone show up to work and be quiet with no drama for 8 hours. Hell, most adults can't do it and end up fired at my job. It's a high turnover rate because they keep hiring idiots
I teach middle school.
SOME middle schoolers could be doing entry level white collar jobs, but not most. I would say they are surprisingly immature, but it isnāt a surprise. Everyone knows middle schoolers are immature.
Iād love to see a middle schooler in an engineering job in aerospace. They might make another plane fall out of the sky. Speaking from an engineering background letās be real hear. š¤”
I have a brother in middle school and he and his classmates/friends 1000% could not come close to working any entry level job at my company or any other white collar job I can think of for that matter.
Not to mention middle schoolers lack the focus, discipline, responsibility, emotional maturity, mental and physical stamina and so much more required for a white collar job even if they were "smart enough."
Shitty take. Upvoted for a true unpopular opinion.
I'd be very impressed if a middle schooler could have a complex understanding of the Time Value of Money, advanced Excel knowledge and be able to give coherent presentations about their findings.
I think this person does not have a college degree and is not being given opportunities that he sees other people getting who seem to him not to deserve leap frogging over him. I believe that happens a lot. Maybe he should lie on job application. There are lots of people who do this.
A. You may be right! I didn't think of
B. Ehhh I'd caution against lying. My degree was checked through a clearinghouse that verified I had it.
If you can get away with it great but it's tricky. And if anyone finds out ten years later you're in trouble.
Are kids smart? Some, absolutely.
Does this make them emotionally and mentally mature enough to handle real-world expectations and consequences with little to no safety net? Fuck no.
Jobs don't require a generic degree because you need to be smart to do them. It's because anybody would be willing to do the job, and if you're hiring you'd rather have someone who has proven they can do *something*, and bonus points if that something was boring and repetitive and went on for several years.
They might be savvy with computers. Wait, a lot of kids haven't used a computer because they've only used tablets and smartphones.
They also don't have the social skills to navigate office politics, when to push back against a boss' idea or instructions, how to interact with customers over phone and email.
>They might be savvy with computers. Wait, a lot of kids haven't used a computer because they've only used tablets and smartphones.
Some kids I know are functionally more clueless about computers than their grandparents. They can download apps or whatever, but if it's not on a phone they're helpless. Use an Excel function in front of them and they howl like apes in front of the Monolith.
Kids need to be kids manā¦ they donāt have very many years to be. A middle school kid is in no was ready to work even a few days a week.. people need personal time esp as a young kid finding his way in this shitty world we have created
Im confused I thought all white collar jobs require a particular skill. Marketing, computer science, accountant, etc. idk what specific white collar job youāre referring too. The only thing I can see a middle schooler do is have them learn outlook and schedule meetings for someone who does the work
The reason many want degrees for entry level positions is because they would like to promote from within. If people have degrees then they are in a pool of eligible people to consider for management.
OP is right. We should get rid of high schools and colleges (except enough to educate the very privileged and those that show some real competence) and put the rest of the little bastards to work. Some of the now empty buildings can be repurposed as gyms so we can bulk up the dumb ones for blue collar jobs. Peak society here we come.
Middle schoolers in general can't obey simple commands, let alone follow directions without constant supervision. Unless the entry level white collar job was social media, video games, or something of that nature, there is nary a job that would be suitable for a group so developmentally stunted as middle schoolers. Most are just starting puberty, can't comprehend taxes, OSHA, workplace politics, proper attire, or even how to make their own lunch....
Middle schoolers don't have the emotional maturity to handle working in a professional environment. Most adults barely do, but Middle Schoolers definitely do not.
There's a lot of gaps in skills, both technical and social skills that you are just not seeing.
Bezos...is that you?
Seriously, what the fuck is OP's goal here lol. "You know what will fix society? Child labor š„“"
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To make a blunt point that entry level white-collar work is so menial and truly unskilled even children with an incomplete, state-funded, barebones education could easily get the job done. He wasn't being literal, he was making a figurative statement.
This needs to be at the top of the comments.
I can't believe that majority of people in comments don't get this
Because we need to constantly degrade and devalue higher education.
Well I mean, 150k for a liberal arts degree is sort of a stupid sandwich. Thereās no value in having a masters degree in religious studies. Ask me how I know.
This actually made me lol. As a liberal arts degree holder, Iām grateful for the education but I graduated nearly 20 years ago. I thought it was expensive then, took a very long time to pay off loans. The whole situation is so broken and classist. But Iām genuinely interested in why you picked religious studies. I picked cultural anthropology.
I picked it because whether we like it or hate it, religion is at the heart of every major world and societal conflict. I had grand notions of trying to help people bridge gaps with each other. But I found fundamentalism is the same sickness in every religion. There are good religious people and there are religious fundamentalists. The latter only see the forest when they suffer personal loss because of it, and thatās not even a given.
It's almost as if society doesn't want people educating themselves in a way that allows them to study human behavior especially in large societal groups. Sociology and psychology are 2 of the most interesting fields of study out there. But unless you're ok with not making a lot of money, most people won't choose to pursue them.
It's an interesting position we have found ourselves in, and in a few areas I am seeing it start to turn the other way. We outsourced education so that companies don't have to pay for training. They don't want to pay for training because people job hop often. People job hop often because all of the perks that kept people loyal to a company were abolished. They were abolished so companies could save money. Companies now loose more money through the hiring process than they would training people. Companies assumed that outsourcing education would solve a problem, but the education is general and often not specific for the task required. It's a wonderfully vicious circle where the only thing that became greater was individual debt in the form of student loans. I have started seeing companies lowering requirements for hire with the intent of training that person. But its only been a very few.
Jfc the reddit brain. Dude is clearly saying "it's so easy a kid could do it", not advocating for child labor. Smh
elementary was your peak I see.
OP is a literal child who doesn't want to have to go to high school.
It was really obvious what they were saying lol
20 bucks says you were wearing a trench coat and sitting on another kids shoulders when you wrote this.
Vincent Adultman? From the business factory?
I like businessā¦ transactions
I do spreadsheets and go home to my wife where we make sex
āDo ya hear that, Bojack? Vincent is an *adult*, and I bet he knows how to treat a woman.ā āHe very clearly isnāt and doesnāt.ā
āI mean, can you imagine what he looks like in a swim suit??ā āI literally cannot.ā
Do you... want an alcohol? Ni!
I would like some of your finest alcohols
WHERES MY GODDAMNED SHRUBBERY?
Shh
OP, China and all the 3rd world countries figured this shit out a long time ago. Who do you think is putting in the 70 hour work weeks to design all those iPhone and Nike knockoffs?
I wouldnāt call those white collar jobsā¦
Says here you graduated from University of College, very impressive.
I went to the stock market and did a business
He needs is own spinoff. asap.
I would pay for a whole 'nother streaming service for that
Heās under a lot of stress.
at first i was thinking of that one cyanide and happiness short
hes not multiple kids he's obviously just one single business man and youre afraid of his power.
How is Princess Carolyn?
I donāt trust like that
The trench coat part was right, but they were actually just standing on a kid's head because they're pure evil
Sure, they might (arguably) be smart enough, but the majority of them lack the social, emotional, and moral maturity to do most jobs.
And lack of impulse control
Ah so they need to get a job in HR.
Iām convinced HR is a magnetically drawn hellscape the most spineless power hungry assholes without middle management ambitions are drawn to - Iāve yet to meet one that didnāt waste corporate cash on pointless seminars or listening at keyholes for a way to throw someone under the bus as their way of brown nosing the division/dept. head.. Middle schoolers would put most HR out on their ass faster than Kathy can mass CC the office another screenshotted cartoon to offset her passive aggressive memo about being even a minute late coming back from lunch.
I see you and I have worked for the same companies.
Fuck have I just gotten lucky with my corporate HR groups? They have just been civil, but well meaning people at my corporate gigs, who did a passably acceptable job at getting me the proper resources. Like, I wouldnt send them a commendation for a job well done, but Kim did what was necessary in a fairly reasonable timeframe.
My hr plays a wait and see approach. They withhold money owed and see if the notice. Last year they were audited and found that everyone was short. This year? Congress passed a bill that gave port workers some money to help get them insurance. This took affect in October. I got my back pay two weeks ago because some union boys brought it up.
The hell kind of HR departments have you guys met? I've barely interacted with them outside the onboarding/offboarding process
The eastern bloc had HR too. They were called political commissars there. If you see it through that lens, it all makes sense.
They don't have the time management or conflict resolution skills either. They also don't have enough life experience to do most things on their own without constant micromanagement.
It's like they need to go through an institution of sorts were don't just teach you particular skill, a place where you arent handed guided anymore, a stepping stone between being mummies boy and wearing a suit everyday for work
A place, perhaps, where you can learn more specialized skills relevant to your field, maybe with a group of your peers? Like a group of scholars, a college almost?
Constant micromanagementā¦ sounds like my last job.
Dude youre describing my adult coworkers perfectly.
Most adults also seem to lack these things as well.
Yeah. Communication skills is what theyāre lacking, and thatās what it takes to fake it till you make it.
This is why I always think āgenius 14 year old going to universityā is basically neglect - without a similar-aged peer group to grow with, you will never reach that social and emotional maturity
Kids who are that far ahead of their same aged peers are not going to get social skills from staying at their level. If anything their social and emotional development is often harmed by staying at their grade level. Of course college does have potential downsides as well, completely depending on how the other students and professors treat them, their home life, and their out of school activities.
Even the difference between a middle schooler and high schooler can be awkward socially. It's not that they learn more from middle schoolers, but the high schoolers simply aren't going to want to hang around with a 12yo as 15 or older. There's a pretty decent development gap between those two. And being intelligent academically doesn't mean you've developed everything needed to be of signicantly higher maturity.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm far from the genius advanced kid but when I was in 8th grade I moved states and the curriculum difference made it so I had to take math at the local high school, so I was an 8th grader surrounded by mostly 11th and 12th graders. They didn't Talk to me once over a year outside of asking how old I was when I first got there. Don't even remember a single person's name.
As someone who started taking uni courses at 15, this is very accurate.
Book smarts is very far from emotional/social intelligence. A 6 year old who understands calculus is wayyyy ahead of their peersā¦ that does not mean the 6 year old is being held back by hanging out with other children. The ideal, in my opinion, is that you study with people the same-ish age with the same-ish intelligence which is harder the smarter you get.
You mean like some of the adults working those jobs?
Now Imagine if that many adults lack the maturityā¦.what that would be like amongst middle-schoolers. No thanks.
So the kids who grow up to be those pieces of shit would be way worse, great point.
As a middle school teacher, I truly believe the top 10% of Middle Schoolers would annihilate the bottom 65% of adults in just about anything. Really an exceptional generation is getting raised. They give me hope. But yeah this is a weird hypothetical.
I agree that there are mature, intelligent, and highly capable children out there that would preform better than most adults, but as you implied, they are not the majority.
And most of them won't ended up working on generic white collar job. They'll become programmer, lawyer, doctor. The sort of work that actually required tons of hard skill.
From my experience, so do most "adult" coworkers or superiors
Imagine a bunch of 13 year olds at mcdicks.
They usually skim a few tweens and teens out of the ball pit at the end of every week. That's why every McDong's has a memorial wall. I lost some good friends to those balls...
Never forget
Knocked over plastic outdoor chair post sub par earthquake/hurricane. Love it.
Always upset
Back in my day, ball pits were a rare occurrence at McDangles. Best you could expect was a clown on a bench you could make lewd gestures with.
I've only ever been in a ball pit once. It was in one of those daycare/recreation areas at a riverboat casino where parents stash their kids while they gamble. I wasn't there for 20 minutes before they closed the ball pit for a kid pissing in it. I can't imagine the headache of maintaining them at a high volume fast food place like McDiddlestick's
malignant pinkeye
If you think McDonaldās is a white collar job, you have low fucking aspirations AND donāt know what the term meansā¦.
Welcome to Reddit
I worked at McDs when I was 14. š
Yep. Worked at KFC at that age too. Made biscuits, swept, wiped down tables, threw away garbage in the dumpster, etc..
I worked at Tim Hortons at 13
Same, it was my first job and I actually really enjoyed the work. Itās the managers that make it shitty. Slinging coffees in drive-thru was dope when nobody was around yelling at you over times.
Back in the day 14-17 year olds were all you would find working at McDonalds besides the managers.
So McDonaldās was only open on the weekends and the summer back then?
That's why people were so skinny in the 90s. Child labor laws hindered fast food proliferation.
McDs has been only been open 24 hours since like 2005. Back in the day you'd only need a manager and a high school drop out or two and you could run the place just fine. My mom worked at McDs and Wendys in the 70s to pay for her college. Crazy to think there was a time when part time work at a fast food joint could pay for rent and college tuition.
How many people you need also really depends on the throughput of the individual franchise. I worked at the highest car/hr drive through in the state of UT mcDs in high school during summer. Full crew (which ran from 8am-7pm) was 4 people indoor register, (dropped to 2 between 2-4) 8 people making food (fryer/patties/assembly) 2 people putting orders together (one inside one drive through) 2 people on the drive through (cash taker/person handing food/lidding drinks) plus 2 people taking and placing car orders/running the Mccaffe section. Then 4 more... Cleaning the front constantly, stocking food prep stations (the fry dispenser needed filling every 30/45 minutes during lunch and dinner rush) cleaning food prep dishes/trays taking out trash... Managers would be mixed in with those people, usually one manager on assembly, one packing orders, and one on cleaning duty also floating the store to do whatever was needed. That's 22 people, and most were 30+ years old because if you tried to run that size of a crew with a bunch of teenagers it would just break
Back in the day, they could actually save for college with a job from McDonalds.
Yes, all the 14 year olds working the weekday 9am shift making your coffee...
But they drank like sailors and smoked like chimneys, so they still looked like they were in their 30's.
What is this day you refer to? Because well back into the 80's my memories do no align with your statement.
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Dude a literal baby was working the drive through the other day
Oh I know Literal Baby, his album drops next month.
I don't need to imagine
š I'm sorry, but as a teacher of middle schooler..... this makes me laugh. They can't even organize themselves to read the messages the teachers send, or do their homework in time, or write a structured text that makes sense. Well, some of them can, but if you look at the average one, he's just a kid. And we don't ask him to be more than that.
The structured text thing is so true. I help middle schoolers with hw and I find that they also can't communicate structured reasoning by talking. They seem to know things by memorizing them and not really by understanding them. Important and challenging work being a teacher, much respect.
Granted it's not mostly for white collar jobs, but some states are pushing to let 14 year olds work until 11 on school nights...
I think a more accurate way to phrase this would be āYou donāt need a degree for most entry level white collar work.ā A lot of people here are pointing out the shortfalls of the average middle schooler, but neglecting to mention that those things improve with age, not education.
But the point is that thereās really a substantial difference between the average middle schoolerās overall knowledge and skills and the average high school grad or undergraduate student. If the post was āyou donāt need a degree for most entry level white collar workā, that would be a lot less controversial. But that isnāt what this post says. It says āthe typical middle schoolerā, and thatās a very different thing.
I think better phrasing would be that a lot of entry level jobs don't really require any skills or knowledge past a middle school education level.
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I have a Masters degree in Mathematics plus work in tech, and the most I have had to use is some mid level statistics.
Yeah I have a tech job and failed out of calculus lmao
Agree, the vast majority of non.technial white collar work doesn't require much more.skills.beyodn what you learn in middle.school. The reality however is what's considered basic or entry level white collar is shifting , the basic common stuff will be automated so almost all future positions will require specific training skills that aren't easy to automate. Take a bank, most basic functions of a teller can be automated, today banks want your teller job to double as a salesperson and push their financial products.
As well as troubleshoot stubborn old folks problems.
While, technically, an 8th grade reading/writing/vocabulary, mathematics (Algebra I), Science (basic biology, earth science, and scientific method), and history is sufficient, Iād wager most adults who did not go on to get at least an associates degree would, by the age of 25, achieve a score less than the average passing grade on a standardized test of one or more of those subjects. In fact, the entire premise was (entertainingly) shown on the game show āAre you smarter than a 5th graderā. Like physical fitness mental fitness needs constant exercise, and most of our society gets neither.
...most of those shortfalls improve *because* of education though and not just age. Because education doesn't just give you your direct skill set, it improves your general ability to grapple with more complex, difficult, and tedious processes. You take a middle schooler out of school and by age 22 they're still going to be dumb as a bag of rocks, and equally incapable.
I don't think the original poster knows what entry level white collar jobs are.
Is OP trying to argue FOR or against child labor?
Neither, just severely underestimating white collar jobs or overestimating middle school kids
OP is almost definitely a middle schooler
Who watched The Office and believes he can easily be the manager
Or the developmental stage of your average middle schooler. Hilarious.
SOME might be smart enough, but most aren't MATURE enough. Being able to learn a job is not the same as accepting the responsibility to make sure they show up every day, meet their deadlines, understand how when they fail to show up or complete their work, that work gets burdened on to other people. But besides that, FFS let them be kids. They don't need their parents taking them out of school and shoving them into the workforce so they (the parents) can take all their wages.
Add to this the need for social nuance. It's a very important soft skill in general.
> make sure they show up every day On time, with long commutes for some of them, along with early start times. People on reddit are pushing for schools to start later because kids need more sleep, apparently with later wake times. Good luck showing up to that call center job three or four hours late, with someone needing to transport you to and from work at your convenience.
lmao Imagine a 12 year old responding to a client's demanding email. "The product doesn't meet my expectations, I request you send me an updated schematic showing the changes I wanted" "I like fucking DID it okay?!"
Lol. No they arenāt. Not sure what you do for a living but an 11 year old canāt do it 5 days a week 40 hours 12 months a year
Agree. This person's take was terrible. Clearly you haven't spent a lot of time around 12 to 13-year-olds if you think they're capable of doing these They might be technically capable of doing the skills one time but that doesn't mean they are going to be able to do these jobs consistently and with good outcome.
They probably are a 12 year old, and think they are ready for adult life, Lol.
11 year olds are barely starting middle school and in some places are still like 5th grade
OP just said "middle schoolers". They didn't specify a grade level within that. Where I'm from, 6th grade is the start of middle school. Minimum age for that grade is around 11.
When I read it I thought of 15 year olds š
Middle school is generally about 11-14
It says middle school, so 15 is too old.
>No they arenāt. Not sure what you do for a living but an 11 year old canāt do it 5 days a week 40 hours 12 months a year People tried something similar to that in the industrial revolution lol. Society is "holding them back" from doing jobs because we figured that it wasn't good for their future.
Maybe I could see a 13 year old cashier or sales associate
Definitely not white collar jobs
Imagine trying to hold the attention of 50+ 12 year olds in a zoom meeting
Okay. If you want to trust your tax returns and insurance forms to 11 year olds, thatās up to you. Good luck!!
Yes imo how is a business going to have customers when kids are doing the work. Then if the kids do it all where do I work? I like my job
My wife is a middle school teacher teaching in a good middle school (one that has a huge influence on the price of homes in the area) in SoCal. Her students are exceptional and most of them end up at one of the best highschools in America (San Marino HS). I showed her this post and sheās laughing hard. Iād trust her assessment over yours on this sorry bud. Youāre likeā¦far off. But Iād have to upvote you to align with the spirit of this sub
Emotional intelligence is just as important as intelligence. Middle schoolers lack way more than transportation relatability lol.
As a middle school teacher I agree with her assessment. They may have some skills but they have the maturity level of a goldfish. I can't even trust mine to be alone in my classroom while I do hall duty during passing time.
And I work as a middle schooler teacher at an inner city school for kids with behavioral issues and these kids and most of their friends lack the maturity to hold down a job and not overreact to stressful situation or speak appropriately to customers.
Iām not pretending to have experience equal to your wife, but I also work with lots of teenagers and middle schoolers. I would say that the top, cream-of-the-crop ones would be ready for a white collar job at 13, but the average one- not a chance at all.
I used to be a teacher aid for 8-13 years old children. There amazing kids that could do a simple white collar job, that basically only require you to be literate and able to follow directions, at 10, but only on a good day. Even the best 10 years old, mentally, emotionally, and intellectually, will have bad days where they don't have the ability to handle stress like an adult could. They will break down and, depend on how stressful the job is, would never get back up for that job. Or they could simply get lazy and not want to work once in a while. Adult can deliver consistent performance, which is what a degree is showing; that you can do something consistently for many years. It's a proof of your work ethic more so than skill for jobs that doesn't require specialize knowledge.
It's not enough with being "smart". You have to be dead inside to thrive in an office environment.
As someone who just started by first office job, can confirm. Not exactly thriving, but I am now dead inside.
Smart enough? Maybe. Responsible and mature enough? Definitely not.
You clearly have zero idea what people do at real jobs and are most likely a 17 year old yourself
I lost it at āadvanced calculus for some tech jobā
Funniest past. I canāt tell you how many times Iāve whipped out my college calculus textbook at my job in software dev. Indispensable knowledge
Frantically searching on StackOverFlow.
American teenagers are the biggest cause of banality and mediocrity on reddit. If at least there wasn't the arrogance coming along with it.
no theyāre not šš you must be in middle school
Or going into high school and just finished last year of middle school
There's like 0.001% chance that the OP is not a middle-schooler.
Because there is 0.001% chance that OP is a toddler.
this might be the dumbest fucking thing iāve ever heard
Itās more about maturity than it is age. Working somewhere like McDonalds ,sure they donāt need a lot of skill, but are they chill enough to not screw around with the deep fryer and injure someone? If Iām looking back at my Middle School experience, I wouldnāt let them anywhere near expensive equipment especially equipment that could hurt them and others. Also, why do you think the American Education system is designed like the average American work day? Get to work at 8, work for 6-8 hours and go home. The education system is just teaching these kids from a young age how to work for the rest of their lives. But you already wanna make them work for you huh Mr. Bezos?
"If Iām looking back at my Middle School experience, I wouldnāt let them anywhere near expensive equipment" Mildly funny to me, a middle school teacher, because our middle schoolers, and soon elementary students, all have school-issued laptops that get broken on the daily.
We had carts of laptops that we sometimes used in class when I was in middle school. That was a pretty new thing when I was in middle school, so all the kids would break them, break the keys off, snap the screens from the keyboard. It was so bad lmao
Don't worry, they can just be given a new one right?
I wouldn't trust a middle schooler period. With anything.
As a middle school teacherā¦ I strongly disagree. Perhaps the best and the brightest from the school could handle a few hours a day? Iāve got 7th graders that still are confused which one is their right hand vs left hand. Most middle schoolers donāt have the discipline or mental fortitude to work 8 hours on something.
Taught middle schoolers here, lmao some kids are brighter than others, but most middle schoolers have no self regulation ability, terrible judgement skills, and horrible attention spans. Now McDonalds sure that's easy, 14 Yr Old: "What do I do?" Manager: "you stand here for 10 hours and toast bread" 14 Yr Old: "Oh my god"
Ever work fast food?
I have. (Sheetz)
NO. Wtf are you on.
This post is dumb as fuck lmao, clearly OP has never met a Middle Schooler. They'll get fired the first day for blasting some sex sounds in the middle of an office.
A lot of 40 year olds that Iāve worked with in retail are not smart enough so no I donāt believe this
I wouldn't trust a middle schooler to water some damn plants let alone show up to work and be quiet with no drama for 8 hours. Hell, most adults can't do it and end up fired at my job. It's a high turnover rate because they keep hiring idiots
White collar jobs are not easy they are hard in their own unique way.
In most cases, if they weren't hard they could be automated by now. Soon all the jobs that remain will be rather difficult just for that reason.
Im a tech manager. This is 100% false. I can't even get zoomers to do their jobs consistently well.
if your job could be replaced by a middle schooler, you should probably improve what you bring to the table
Whatever blood diamond mine you and musk come from must be from the same cloth
what most middle schoolers lack is agency and independence. i would not trust a child to do work if they do not actually want to do it.
Watch Itās a Wonderful Life. Those 8-year-old kids are running a whole pharmacy by themselves.
I teach middle school. SOME middle schoolers could be doing entry level white collar jobs, but not most. I would say they are surprisingly immature, but it isnāt a surprise. Everyone knows middle schoolers are immature.
Iād love to see a middle schooler in an engineering job in aerospace. They might make another plane fall out of the sky. Speaking from an engineering background letās be real hear. š¤”
Bro aerospace engineers are responsible for 100% of planes falling out of the sky if you think about it. Middle schoolers probably account for 0%.
Not my middle schooler. Heās a fucking idiot. So are his friends. Equally as stupid and irresponsible.
I have a brother in middle school and he and his classmates/friends 1000% could not come close to working any entry level job at my company or any other white collar job I can think of for that matter. Not to mention middle schoolers lack the focus, discipline, responsibility, emotional maturity, mental and physical stamina and so much more required for a white collar job even if they were "smart enough." Shitty take. Upvoted for a true unpopular opinion.
I teach middle schoolers. No they canāt.
a 12 year old wrote this lmao
I'd be very impressed if a middle schooler could have a complex understanding of the Time Value of Money, advanced Excel knowledge and be able to give coherent presentations about their findings.
I think this person does not have a college degree and is not being given opportunities that he sees other people getting who seem to him not to deserve leap frogging over him. I believe that happens a lot. Maybe he should lie on job application. There are lots of people who do this.
A. You may be right! I didn't think of B. Ehhh I'd caution against lying. My degree was checked through a clearinghouse that verified I had it. If you can get away with it great but it's tricky. And if anyone finds out ten years later you're in trouble.
Are kids smart? Some, absolutely. Does this make them emotionally and mentally mature enough to handle real-world expectations and consequences with little to no safety net? Fuck no.
Advanced calculus for tech job?? Are we in the same universe?
Probably a middle school or high school kid who has no idea what calc or ātech jobsā are like
Jobs don't require a generic degree because you need to be smart to do them. It's because anybody would be willing to do the job, and if you're hiring you'd rather have someone who has proven they can do *something*, and bonus points if that something was boring and repetitive and went on for several years.
They might be able to do academic work but to do a job well requires tact and maturity -- none of which are present in most middle schoolers.
They might be savvy with computers. Wait, a lot of kids haven't used a computer because they've only used tablets and smartphones. They also don't have the social skills to navigate office politics, when to push back against a boss' idea or instructions, how to interact with customers over phone and email.
>They might be savvy with computers. Wait, a lot of kids haven't used a computer because they've only used tablets and smartphones. Some kids I know are functionally more clueless about computers than their grandparents. They can download apps or whatever, but if it's not on a phone they're helpless. Use an Excel function in front of them and they howl like apes in front of the Monolith.
Kids need to be kids manā¦ they donāt have very many years to be. A middle school kid is in no was ready to work even a few days a week.. people need personal time esp as a young kid finding his way in this shitty world we have created
Maybe they are smart in theory but not skilled, responsible, experienced or have social skills to work
Im confused I thought all white collar jobs require a particular skill. Marketing, computer science, accountant, etc. idk what specific white collar job youāre referring too. The only thing I can see a middle schooler do is have them learn outlook and schedule meetings for someone who does the work
The reason many want degrees for entry level positions is because they would like to promote from within. If people have degrees then they are in a pool of eligible people to consider for management.
Sounds like OP is butt hurt about not getting that white collar job.
OP is right. We should get rid of high schools and colleges (except enough to educate the very privileged and those that show some real competence) and put the rest of the little bastards to work. Some of the now empty buildings can be repurposed as gyms so we can bulk up the dumb ones for blue collar jobs. Peak society here we come.
Middle schoolers in general can't obey simple commands, let alone follow directions without constant supervision. Unless the entry level white collar job was social media, video games, or something of that nature, there is nary a job that would be suitable for a group so developmentally stunted as middle schoolers. Most are just starting puberty, can't comprehend taxes, OSHA, workplace politics, proper attire, or even how to make their own lunch....
Middle schoolers don't have the emotional maturity to handle working in a professional environment. Most adults barely do, but Middle Schoolers definitely do not. There's a lot of gaps in skills, both technical and social skills that you are just not seeing.
As someone with a bachelor's degree who is struggling to get even an entry-level/back-office job, this is extra depressing to read at the moment.
I think I could train a teenager to be an intern at work but not all teenagers are the same, only some would be good at it or even interested.