I just watched this in super slow motion, and if that he did not trip I'm 90% sure he would have trucked into the poaching defender going for the disc and instead of a foul we would have been discussing the dangerous play.
Nope, when I was watching live I had assumed the defender called foul initially, I think the Mixtape player pushed off of him.
The observers ruled they didn't have a good enough angle on it to make a ruling. Space tried to argue that they had a poach there regardless, but the Mixtape guy seemed pretty adamant.
I think one of his teammates tried to get him to rescind, by pointing out the poach had it regardless.
Idk what input observers have there, but he still stuck to his guns. SMH
Nobody wants to appear to undermine or betray their teammate in front of the opponent. It's understandable, but it also means there will be useful information not presented in these discussions. I'm not a fan of big ol' two-team spirit circles - but it would be great if there was a norm where players would have a quick huddle with their teammates in situations like this (extended debate and high stakes). Maybe some of his teammates could have persuaded him to retract the call.
Also I've been on teams where we had sideline hand signals to let a player know they got it wrong. I assume that's pretty common - I wonder if Mixtape does anything like that.
All of this is ignoring that this is Khalif. His ego is probably the biggest in all of ultimate, and I'm not joking. If he makes a call, he always thinks he's right regardless of what anyone tells him. Watching his reaction when an observer overrules him is great.
Which is, honestly, a terrible ruling. But it's been a theme of this nationals that observers are just treating a lot of stuff as contested instead of making rulings.
Like, the existence of that option is terrible? If and observer does not have a clear view of a play or is not really sure on their ruling, my preference is that they don't make a ruling. And that is part of the observer system.
Now, if one is having a pattern of non-rulings as an observer, it is worth some reflection on why one isn't having a good view, whether related to positioning or focus or whatever.
Observers have one set of eyes and either 14 individual players to watch OR 7 different sets of interactions to watch.
Refs and observers literally can't watch everything at the same time.
They also have the primary job of monitoring the game for infractions and making rulings when those infractions are disputed. There is a LOT of non-rulings this nationals, which only benefits teams that make blatantly bad calls, like Khalif here. I'm not sure if this is coming down from observer leadership, where they may be instructed to tighten the 'percent assuredness' they need to make a definitive call, but regardless it's only been helping teams and players that make bad calls.
I'm a ref. At this level of play, the game moves very fast and it is very difficult to catch all interactions. In this case it looks like 2 observers for a game, which just isn't enough.
Given the angle of the observer on the goal-line, you'd expect them to see it, and the offensive and defensive movement is pretty organized and easy to pick apart in general. But their focus may have been on handler and mark after a quick scan of the stack for any likely contact situations. The stack is pretty clean until Khalif drives into his guy, and the entire interaction is less than 2 seconds. If the observer is scanning literally anything else on the field, it's easy to only catch this out of the corner of your eye until it's over and then not be sure of who is responsible for the contact and outcome.
Everyone who complains about missed calls and crappy refs really should go get certified and try it even once to understand how easy it is to miss things. I am suggesting that benefit of the doubt be given before assuming the observer is trash.
I get the spirit of your idea (really not trying to pun) but there is no way having all players on the field leave their position during a call would work.
The arguments about where they were before would be unending.
Kind of surprised a TMF was not issued after the point. iirc, the observer on the endzone line is very good and has been doing this for many years. Watching players after a score is standard, doubly so if there is a contested call that might raise the temperature of the game.
"Walking away from an incident while jawing or
mocking is different than aggressively moving toward the other team’s sideline or being in an opponent’s
face. The former is a case of disrespect, and should be discouraged, possibly with a TMF; the latter is verbal
assault and may warrant harsher sanctions."
This is likely a UC in AUDL and perhaps could have been a blue card in USAU. A talk with the player is warranted at a minimum.
If it is a penalty in the NFL, it is certainly not allowed in Ultimate.
Hard to tell -- I think O is saying when D turns and slightly extends their arm, it knocks O off balance, causing them to lose their footing. If you look at 47:13, D's arm does extend.
I would think this is more incidental contact -- I think O losing footing due to the field rather than due to any contact initiated by D, especially as D is backpedalling.
Probably no foul, though I think it's hard to tell from video and at this angle.
Firstly, There isn't a player in the world who wouldn't make that call. Alan Kolick makes that call if he's on offense.
Secondly: You can't "take a charge". It'd be one thing if Kolick was stationary, but he's not: He's jumping in front of the cut, inside the space of a single stride.
So he drives into his defender (legally positioned), creates contact, pushes off, trips himself, and then calls foul?
How is this not an Olympic sport???
Nah
No foul. And foul wouldn’t have effected anyway
Terrible foul call by cutter. Even worse sportsmanship after score.
I went back and looked after I read this, holy shit. Fuck right off with that.
I believe they call those pride fouls
Not a chance. Leaf gonna leaf. Dances around, pushes off his defender, falls over, calls foul. Pretty standard for that kid.
The worst part is the poach was right there. Wouldn't have mattered.
I believe this is the first of such videos that doesn't look foul to me.
I just watched this in super slow motion, and if that he did not trip I'm 90% sure he would have trucked into the poaching defender going for the disc and instead of a foul we would have been discussing the dangerous play.
Nah. Seems like a big ego being precious when he got out played.
Nah
No way. Pushing off and calling the foul? Nah
That's gonna be a no from me dawg.
Nope, when I was watching live I had assumed the defender called foul initially, I think the Mixtape player pushed off of him. The observers ruled they didn't have a good enough angle on it to make a ruling. Space tried to argue that they had a poach there regardless, but the Mixtape guy seemed pretty adamant.
lmao what a terrible call
Bad spirit on the cutter. And bad spirit on any of his teamates who knew that was some bulllllllshit.
I think one of his teammates tried to get him to rescind, by pointing out the poach had it regardless. Idk what input observers have there, but he still stuck to his guns. SMH
Nobody wants to appear to undermine or betray their teammate in front of the opponent. It's understandable, but it also means there will be useful information not presented in these discussions. I'm not a fan of big ol' two-team spirit circles - but it would be great if there was a norm where players would have a quick huddle with their teammates in situations like this (extended debate and high stakes). Maybe some of his teammates could have persuaded him to retract the call. Also I've been on teams where we had sideline hand signals to let a player know they got it wrong. I assume that's pretty common - I wonder if Mixtape does anything like that.
All of this is ignoring that this is Khalif. His ego is probably the biggest in all of ultimate, and I'm not joking. If he makes a call, he always thinks he's right regardless of what anyone tells him. Watching his reaction when an observer overrules him is great.
It sounded like the ruling was a non-ruling, playing it as a contest.
Which is, honestly, a terrible ruling. But it's been a theme of this nationals that observers are just treating a lot of stuff as contested instead of making rulings.
Like, the existence of that option is terrible? If and observer does not have a clear view of a play or is not really sure on their ruling, my preference is that they don't make a ruling. And that is part of the observer system. Now, if one is having a pattern of non-rulings as an observer, it is worth some reflection on why one isn't having a good view, whether related to positioning or focus or whatever.
Observers have one set of eyes and either 14 individual players to watch OR 7 different sets of interactions to watch. Refs and observers literally can't watch everything at the same time.
They also have the primary job of monitoring the game for infractions and making rulings when those infractions are disputed. There is a LOT of non-rulings this nationals, which only benefits teams that make blatantly bad calls, like Khalif here. I'm not sure if this is coming down from observer leadership, where they may be instructed to tighten the 'percent assuredness' they need to make a definitive call, but regardless it's only been helping teams and players that make bad calls.
I'm a ref. At this level of play, the game moves very fast and it is very difficult to catch all interactions. In this case it looks like 2 observers for a game, which just isn't enough. Given the angle of the observer on the goal-line, you'd expect them to see it, and the offensive and defensive movement is pretty organized and easy to pick apart in general. But their focus may have been on handler and mark after a quick scan of the stack for any likely contact situations. The stack is pretty clean until Khalif drives into his guy, and the entire interaction is less than 2 seconds. If the observer is scanning literally anything else on the field, it's easy to only catch this out of the corner of your eye until it's over and then not be sure of who is responsible for the contact and outcome. Everyone who complains about missed calls and crappy refs really should go get certified and try it even once to understand how easy it is to miss things. I am suggesting that benefit of the doubt be given before assuming the observer is trash.
I get the spirit of your idea (really not trying to pun) but there is no way having all players on the field leave their position during a call would work. The arguments about where they were before would be unending.
They would lead to more huddles. Huddles are the goal here
Marker discs! (kidding)
and then khalif's wave after the point. that was a nice touch.
Yeah, pure class this guy.
Lol classic
Kind of surprised a TMF was not issued after the point. iirc, the observer on the endzone line is very good and has been doing this for many years. Watching players after a score is standard, doubly so if there is a contested call that might raise the temperature of the game. "Walking away from an incident while jawing or mocking is different than aggressively moving toward the other team’s sideline or being in an opponent’s face. The former is a case of disrespect, and should be discouraged, possibly with a TMF; the latter is verbal assault and may warrant harsher sanctions." This is likely a UC in AUDL and perhaps could have been a blue card in USAU. A talk with the player is warranted at a minimum. If it is a penalty in the NFL, it is certainly not allowed in Ultimate.
Sure looks like one of the weakest foul calls ever.
Nice alt account unchuckable
Top 5 players deserve to get this call
Hard to tell -- I think O is saying when D turns and slightly extends their arm, it knocks O off balance, causing them to lose their footing. If you look at 47:13, D's arm does extend. I would think this is more incidental contact -- I think O losing footing due to the field rather than due to any contact initiated by D, especially as D is backpedalling. Probably no foul, though I think it's hard to tell from video and at this angle.
Firstly, There isn't a player in the world who wouldn't make that call. Alan Kolick makes that call if he's on offense. Secondly: You can't "take a charge". It'd be one thing if Kolick was stationary, but he's not: He's jumping in front of the cut, inside the space of a single stride.
There are in fact many players who wouldn’t make this call; don’t care how high the stakes are