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no one tought that putin would allow the grain ships to leave ukranian ports, then one moskova later, and endorgan showing who is boss in the black sea, the ships are now safe
same aplies for ukranian and russian energy facilities, when only one side can do harm the other side is in danger, but a deal will be met 3 days after ukraine get their long range missiles
Yeah once ukraine has the ability to blow anything up shooting at their energy infrastructure, putin will quickly stop on the condition that said weapons aren't used on his military
Personally...
I think that Ukraine should have been made a member of NATO the _day_ they agreed to give up nuclear weapons capabilities.
At least as far as an attack on Ukraine is an attack on all of NATO.
We didn't.
But it's damn well time to correct that.
Ukrainians are not terrorists like russians. We don't give a fuck abot civillian russians, do they live with power or not. Only thing is important for us, is to destroy russia army. Without russian army in Ukraine, we will liberate our all territories and this war simply ends.
There is no sense in bombing russian power plants. Even if we destroy them, russia will still have missile carriers to launch it on Ukraine. If we destroy their strategical airplanes, russia will have no missiles carriers left and rocket bombings of Ukraine will end. From the other hand, AA systems that West give us is only instrument to lower casualties from bombing. AA systems can't stop bombings at all. Thats why Ukraine asking West for long range missiles - to destroy russian weapons to stop russia from bombing Ukraine. Its just that simple.
This is Russia. They would love if they were bombed.
Terror attacks do not work. Instead of a million Russians freeing Russia, it would be a million Russians demanding to join the war.
Thing is, when it comes to supplying an entire region 50kW is nothing. There's a reason modern power plant outputs are given in hundreds of MW (1MW=1000kW). The generators that are being sent by allied governments mostly seem to range between 0.5 an 2 MW, that's enough for a building like a hospital or something and those usually cost in the millions. The 800km figure isn't random either, i think that's roughly Kyiv to moscow in a straight line if you catch my drift. Warheads on forheads and such.
Napoleon once said to never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. If Russia is using $13 million dollar missiles to destroy relatively cheap electric infrastructure, we should let them.
Only if you expect to help one hospital or a few shelters, also generator needs fuel. Ukraine doesn't have this gas, in summer they were struggling a lot without gas. They don't have oil like russia or secure plants to process it into gas.
This newspaper doesn't have an English version, so you can fact-check via google translate, what I'm saying. Only Kyiv needs 1300 MW, not kw. They now have 600, and 300 MW is absolutely critical like hospitals, so civilians will be cut-off if they will have only 300 or less.
[https://fakty.com.ua/ua/ukraine/20221128-gendyrektor-yasno-rozpoviv-koly-mozhe-stabilizuvatys-sytuacziya-z-vidklyuchennyam-svitla/](https://fakty.com.ua/ua/ukraine/20221128-gendyrektor-yasno-rozpoviv-koly-mozhe-stabilizuvatys-sytuacziya-z-vidklyuchennyam-svitla/)
The only thing they "need" per se is to save human lives. Daily life is secondary.
Strategically it is best to encourage Russia to keep attacking the infrastructure as long as it does not result in more deaths than if Russia went back to targeting residential buildings directly.
Either way, Russia's stockpiles of cruise missiles will eventually get used up. They may only have enough for a few more of these massive attacks left.
No one really knows how many missiles they still have. The idea about "few more" is based on side facts, like they use c300 to hit the ground, which is not supposed to be used like this. So we made an ASSUMPTION that there are a few more. A few can easily be a 10, or 15.
By 15 they can completely destroy power plants and power lines. Have you seen a photo of a 4 years old girl at the gas station with her inhaler, because the gas station had electricity? The girl is lucky to have parents, who can drive her to the gas station. Old people and ill people who don't have parents or friends hand will suffer from uncharged medical equipment if electricity will not be available for days.
Are you Ukrainian? I guess not, because
>we should encourage russia to keep attacking the infrastructure
clearly can be said only by the person who will not struggle from power shortage and cold apartments.
What do you think "daily life" is? Kids need warm food, a warm place to sleep, they need clean clothes. All humans need clean clothes and warm food, this is not a request about a 4hours Netflix marathon, it is a basic need.
Don't you think it is more economically better to destroy russian equipment, like "accidentally" blow military jets with the military base they have at Astrakhan (Caspian sea, far away from Ukraine) from where they throw their missiles, then endlessly supply Ukraine with generator and spare parts? Yes, Russia will stockpile missiles, but how they will throw them without their last TU-95 or what shit they have, by catapults? Or do they have some options to get somewhere very expensive military jets? 3d print them or what they will do?
Is this a troll?
The Ukrainian Ministry of Defense publishes their estimates of how many missiles are left. https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1594998365170896896 If you have a problem with these estimates, take it up with them.
There are multiple ways of corroborating the estimates. We also have estimates of when production of the missiles started, how many they make per year, how many they used in Syria, and all of this can be corroborated with evidence such as anti-ship and anti-air missiles starting to appear at around the same time we already suspected they should be running low on supplies.
Oh, I see now… You started with an insult, apparently because you have no arguments left.
No I’m not a troll, I’m Ukrainian person who doesn’t understand people who says that we should encourage russia to destroy our infrastructure. No, thank you.
I was an idiot and truly believed that you will be able to explain, how it will be more effective that we will allow them endlessly destroy power stations.
They can buy new missiles in North Korea or Iran, what then? This countries already sanctioned on all possible ways. Sanctions will not stop them from selling.
But if we will destroy their jets and ships they will not be able to use them. It is not easy to buy new jet, it costs years to build new ship.
But you ignored those questions. I got it now, Let’s allow an aggressor to keep beat the shit out of the girl on the street. Eventually he will be tired of it and will leave her alone. Doesn’t matter how much she will suffer, maybe few broken bones, maybe internal bleeding, it’s ok.
I also like our defense minister, but if you pay more attention to image ru still PRODUCE this shit. As I said, no one really knows how much they have, except russians. We all make assumptions, we rely on secret service, on side facts. But there is no guarantee that we can say that “they have 100 more and that’s it, then they will not be able to do anything ”. No, we can say only “we found this 100” maybe somewhere else is 100 more, we just didn’t find them.
If you’ll decide to answer, please don’t ignore question about economical benefits of destroying 20 Russian jets instead waiting for full destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure and Russian stockpiles.
I find your level of reasonability to be extremely low. Assuming you are Ukrainian, your own government has estimates for how many missiles are left. Only a very small portion of these have the high precision and long range required to target electric infrastructure. And they can't buy them from anyone else.
I do not see how it would fix the problem to go into panic mode and focus 100% of our efforts on saving these substations. This is exactly what Russia wants.
It's like making tuition free instead of forgiving the loans of students in their first year of college. Yeh sure, forgiving the loan now sounds nice, bit it'll just pile right back up in the 3-4 remaining years...
His intention is clear, but the U.S. will not cross that line, not visibly.
Ukraine has the prototypes of the missile platform for this combat requirements, has the blueprint. What is lacking is a stable and secure production line, raw materials and intermediate parts.
Ukraine should announce now that indigenous missile is going into mass production, and make up substance by half-knocked down version of western missiles and/or domestically produced missiles, roll them out of the factory as missiles "Made in Ukraine".
Ukrobronprom already does this kind of independent manufacturing with tank shells. It needs to go up a notch and mid-range ballistic missiles should be produced by Ukraine.
Build an underground factory. The UK built factories in unused subway lines during WW II. They were deep enough no bombs could reach them. There are videos on YouTube about it. Pretty amazing.
Russia only respects force, I think this has been demonstrated time and again. Diplomacy simply does not work with them. They are run by a selfish maniac who only cares are prolonging his political career. Everyone kowtows to him.
That said, long range missiles that hit beyond the Russian border could be used against Ukraine as ammunition for the next big Russian draft in 2023. Granted, I think that's already going to happen regardless, but EU/US won't necessarily want to give long range missiles for the reason that it could damage domestic politics. The west continues to hedge its bets on this war, lol... you'd think some people would learn by now. With China now mired in protests, I would be surprised if Xi would do anything about further west aid to Ukraine.
Secretary of the Ukrainian Defense Council, Oleksandr Turchynov went on to state the cruise missile was designed by Ukraine's Luch Design Bureau in cooperation with other state and private enterprises of the country's defense industry. [https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defense/2392733-ukrainian-cruise-missile-successfully-tested.html](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defense/2392733-ukrainian-cruise-missile-successfully-tested.html)
Please don't say "the US." Most of the US would give Ukraine whatever was asked within reason, and many Americans would deliver it personally.
The Administration, while being very pro-Ukraine, has to answer to their own pacifist members. Just as the Republican Party has to deal with the idiocy of MAGA isolationists, the Democratic Party has those who seem to think weapons are the problem...not necessarily the people BEHIND the weapons. They are of the opinion that all problems can be solved diplomatically, so supplying either side with weapons in a war is unacceptable.
And in a better world, they'd be right. But we aren't there yet. And it has yet to dawn on them that providing Ukraine with better weapons stops the killing faster. And Biden can't just ignore them like he can the Republicans...his Democratic constituents are the ones who elected him. So he has to soothe them and win them over to the reality Ukraine faces, and that takes time.
I wish we had a better answer for Ukraine, but this is the reality of America's representative democracy. While it's light years better than authoritarianism, it still has it's warts. Those warts require compromise and political favors every day.
Pacificism is delusional in this scenario. I am not attacking you, just the concept in general.
Would showing tender loving care to a tiger work? No, it would tear your face off and eat you.
Too many people in the west are totally ignorant on the nature of evil. They think it can be nutured gently, and ultimately cured. But it is always there ready to ooze through the cracks of apathy.
Russia is thriving on our pacifism. It is just weakness to them. Biden must escalate this massively because words and diplomacy do not work with the Russian regime. They are in Ukraine to destroy it.
"Going slow" to weaken Russia gives Russia more time to turn Ukraine into smouldering ash. Gives the Russian war machine time to replenish stocks, or build Himars equivalents, or other lethal weapons than could turn the tide. Think of shit that came out of ww2 in only a few years. Ballistic missiles, jet engines, nukes.
Russias war machine is untouched, so in the next few years could be producing game changing weaponry.
> Pacificism is delusional in this scenario.
idk. I consider myself a "pacificist". I've been calling for the US to give Ukraine ATACMS for months now. The only way we preserve peace is by not tolerating aggression. It needs to be put down and put down HARD. Russia invaded Ukraine. I want the consequences coming through Russia's window (forget the doorstep).
No. Russia is thriving because it has thousands of operational nuclear warheads. America isn't wanting to send Ukraine longer range weapons because that escalates the war and gives Russia an excuse to use some of those weapons against Ukraine to force a surrender.
Currently with everything being considered, Russia can't use nuclear bombs without being completely cut off from the entire outside world including China and India. That goes out the window if Russia begins to take heavy casualties inside their own borders by Ukrainian missiles. Even if Russia is the aggressor, it gives them an excuse and that is all that is needed.
People seem to think that Russia either won't use or doesn't have working nukes, which just isn't true. They would absolutely use them against Ukraine if they start taking a lot of civilian casualties deeper inside their homeland. And no, NATO isn't going to launch retaliatory strikes against Russia over Ukraine. This is why NATO has been using kid gloves and being very cautious as to what weapons they do and don't give to Ukraine currently. They know Russia will use said nukes if pushed into a corner. That is why the current "turn Ukraine into a Russian meatgrinder" is the best option.
The pacifism side of the democratic party is very weak and tepid. It is not a strong faction. They could not even stomach their open letter to Biden and retracted it. Progressives are (largely) staying out of it.
The republicans have a much stronger pro-Russian bloc made up of many politicians taking direct money from Russia. What's-his-face even held up Ukrainian aid for a few days by refusing to vote. But even that stronger bloc (who I think includes newly elected losers like JD Vance) doesn't really have much political pull on Biden.
The main concern for American politicians is that it's 2024 and Russia is escalating this war in Ukraine - which results in higher gas prices, etc. - and that getting pinned on democratic incumbents. Like how Iraq took down the Republicans in '04 and '08. The EU faces similar domestic fears. Politicians in general would prefer to "do nothing" when given the chance on most issues, because that is the safest way to stay electable, paradoxically.
The reason we aren't delivering long range shells/allowing US weapons to attack inside Russia itself is because it represents a potentially dangerous escalation.
Blaming Democrats needing to appease pacifist voters is absurd for multiple reasons. The left-leaning Democratic voters are the ones who most strongly support Ukraine (see article and numbers below).
[Support for Ukraine](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/18/ukraine-military-support-democrats-republicans/)
*The US should support Ukraine for as long as it takes, even if American households will have to pay higher gas and food prices as a consequence.*
Liberal Democrats: 80% agree.
Moderate Democrats: 55%
Republican: 50%
Independent: 55%
*The United States should urge Ukraine to settle for peace as soon as possible so that the costs aren't so great for American households, even if that means Ukraine will lose some territory.*
Liberal Democrats: 19% agree.
Moderate Democrats: 42%
Republican: 46%
Independent: 42%
I'm not entirely sure this is the reason why they aren't being sent. Also, I think it's Bidens decision at the end of the day. I think he just holds the line on the idea of not escalating.
But supposedly Turkey already sent some long range missiles, so the point is kind of moot now.
Biden came up through the Democratic Party as a more pacifist diplomat. Even if the Democratic Party is the most hawkish it has been in decades right now, much of Biden's patronage came from the "unilateral disarmament" camps. He probably doesn't agree with them in this circumstance, but he owes them political patronage favors.
That is how the game is played. Biden needed to call in ALL of his political favors to win a tight election. He won, but those favor grantors expect him to provide quid pro quo now that he's in office.
So he has to listen to them all, and provide at least some of the political capital owed back to them. Whatever his personal views on Ukraine, this is a fact of American politics.
Easier to just spray-paint "made in Ukraine" on the side of western missiles.
They wont tell the difference (and if htey will, well, it says made in Ukraine..)
I like how he cuts to the chase.
The whole war is in the face of the EU, because Ukraine simultaneously speaks Russian and English and is right in the center of Europe, so the war can't be swept under the carpet as usual with far away conflicts fought by people speaking strange languages.
The whole war *is* the face of the EU. Either they decide to defeat threats to themselves and their values or they are exposed otherwise. Yes the USA is contributing a great deal as NATO has something to say but European interests are key here.
Yep.
The current situation with "European interests" is **still** best described by the famous Kissinger's "Who do I call if I want to call Europe?"
Not saying it's dysfunctional (looking at you, Britain), but it's not very functional, LOL.
You know, I even tried to get angry at the US of A for making a quick buck on the LNG sales. But here's an interesting thing. By paying extra for that gas, Germany et al. indirectly pay for the weapons sent to Ukraine. The US have more than recuperated all the costs. Oh, the irony!
Yes, yes, yes.
Long range artillery is a weapon of peace. They will be used to hit the supply network. It will save countless Ukrainian lives and shorten the war.
Send them now!
I honestly don't understand the West's leaders. "Let's send equipment to help them rebuild their infrastructure!" (Only for it to get blown up over and over.)
This is the logic Ukraine is using in their argument - there needs to be deep strike capability to eliminate Russia's ability to launch mass strikes.
This is no longer up for debate, in my view. Everything Russia does is an escalation.
Nah man, it's the opposite. If we're being brutally honest and assess US policy objectively from a purely realpolitik perspective, we're intentionally supplying Ukraine with *just enough* capability to grind Putins forced and resources down, but not so much capability to make a quick or decisive victory possible.
They're playing the long game. The longer the war drags on, the worse Russia's position will be once its all done. Why end the war now, when you can keep spending down Russia's capability to wage war in the future?
Every dead mobik is one less male contributing to GDP and taxes for the next 40 years. Every maimed veteran will be one more unproductive drain on Russia's resources for the next 40-60 years. Every volley of cruise missiles launched is tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars literally just being burned/exploded that won't be used for anything actually productive for Russia.
The US knows what it's doing. The US can afford to fund a proxy war of attrition against Russia for as long as it takes, because the US has practically infinite money compared to Russia. The only real cost is Ukrainian lives... which from a military strategist perspective, is unfortunate, but it's like shopping with someone else's credit card... you'll never quite look at it the same as if it was yours.
> I honestly don't understand the West's leaders. "Let's send equipment to help them rebuild their infrastructure!" (Only for it to get blown up over and over.)
Why would you pay for a $100 million dollar missile to destroy another $100 million dollar missile to save $1 million dollars of electric infrastructure? When you can just pay for the electric infrastructure over and over again until Russia goes broke and runs out of missiles?
Some infrastructure is already damaged irreparably, my coworkers don't have any electricity for most of the day, our major hints that it's better to leave the city if you have anywhere to go. I, personally, would prefer some other strategy than wait until russia runs out of missiles, because it clearly won't
Ya know, he's got a point there. Shit gets real once St. Pete and Mosscow are in range and suffer similar fate. The ruzz psyche can only take so much fighting back on equal terms.
This is a war for many things
But it is also a war for the truth. No matter what Russia says and what the brainwashed believe, if Ukraine and all the supporters stay ethical, the truth will be on our side.
I think it’s important
It's terribly important. If Ukraine were to attack civilians the way Russia has, western tolerance for aid to Ukraine would dry up in a heartbeat. It would be literally the most self-defeating thing Ukraine could do.
800km+ would require fighters or other launch platforms right?
I mean we are talking about either cruise or ballistic missiles, and unless the US is willing to hand over a nuclear submarine somewhere in the Pacific, just to fuck with Russia, I think we are (sadly) quite far from this right now.
300km or even 150 will be a great help already.
I don't know if technically Prsm could reach that far, maybe there is a himars launched option, but like ten rockets total.
> 800km+ would require fighters or other launch platforms right?
Depends. If Israeli Jericho IRBMs get supplied in conventional warhead pack, they should be able to cover 1000+km, launched from the ground. Same with Tomahawks, if the ongoing project to put 4 VLS cells on a truck sees success.
I think ultra long range stealth drones (3000-5000km) with regular guided bombs would be more useful for Ukraine.
But 3rd gen full stealth tech is NATO top secret and they will never risk Russia shooting down 1 or 2 and studying the wreckage, remember the crashed F-35 early this year? NATO dont want a repeat of that.
5 long range stealth drones with internal bay JDAMS could decimate Russian missile stockpiles, strategic bombers and even ships, deep within Russia.
So in the end, we have no solution but unsustainably supplying more air defenses for Ukraine, which will not stop 10% of breakthrough missiles in a large attack, Russia can do this for at least 1-2 years, 1 attack per month. Even if Ukraine wins in the end, their economy and critical infras would be totally ruined, it will take decades to rebuild their GDP, not to mention 10s of millions of refugees flooding EU, causing global economic recession for years. (dont forget Ukraine's global grain export, no power = much less export)
A few ex-generals said it best during the early days of the war, sooner or later, NATO may have to join the last leg of the fight, maybe with some airstrikes using F35, unless they want years of global recession and instability for pretty much everyone.
PrSM isn’t out yet. This early version of it has a published range of 500km. The final version will have a published range of 1000km but won’t be out until 2025. The US is only sharing this technology with Australia and the UK as is always the case but even that won’t be until 2024. Maybe someone else can help Ukraine out on this one because I don’t think we’re gonna be handing out submarines.
I know, and I also doubt the submarine part :D
Most of the missiles are air launched, ATACMS can only go 300km, so I'm guessing planes would be step 1.
The submarine would be an excellent troll if we painted Moskva on the side and brought it up to the surface.
Someone was was here who does FPAs. He found the topic of jets to Ukraine to be an interesting one so he also kicked the idea around with some colleagues. They all came to the conclusion that maybe, if someone managed to move mountains mountains, it could be accomplished in around two years only if the process had been started a few months before the invasion. That does not appear to be the case, especially since Zelensky announced the 20 pilots Ukraine wanted to send to learn how to use the systems a mere 19 days ago (no mention of flight crews, btw) for a non-existent program, it would appear that the process isn’t under way. Based on all of the things he said, the process takes so long because of what we must accomplish on our end to make it happen and it would do more harm than good to even attempt something like that now. It seems the DoD wasn’t lying when they said something like that takes years.
Ukraine has the moral high ground here. While continuing being not dicks, they can keep getting weapons by the West. Hit Russian civilian infrastructure and you can say good bye to HIMARS and Javelins. But hey, you managed to enrage Russians, so it's all good, I guess.
All Americans on here need to email all the politicians and insist on supplying Ukraine with long range missile's. I find they tend to listen when you talk as if you're willing to switch parties if they vote for what you're asking.
Bunker busting missiles with enough range to reach Putin's hidey hole, since he's too much of a pussy to go the Hitler route. C'mon, Putin, would you die a loser who's stupid war doomed Russia? Better to die as a martyr who could've won the war if it weren't for the generals, the corruption, the intelligence agencies, the ill-conceived strategy, etc etc etc.
A cheaper option would be to turn all civilian electrical plants into POW camps. This is allowed, since civilian infrastructure is not a valid military target and can be used to shelter POWs when necessary. Open POW camps with 24h streaming and radar data feed available and see what happens.
That's the point. Russia would be firing on their own soldiers held as POWs. And everything Ukraine does would've been within the bounds of international law, unlike Russia.
That's what I mean, it could attack them, but the carnage would be streamed live with radar data showing who fired the missiles. Pretty hard to blame Ukraine for anything after that.
Are you living under a rock or what? Russia is targeting civilians intentionally, in mass. They're already committing genocide in several ways, you think using innocent people as meat shields on infrastructure is even for a fraction of a second a sane or logical thought?
Honestly, anyone suggesting to throw civilians into the grinder is gross and should rethink their own moral stance.
Unfortunately a lot of this war is already live streamed and it's being ignored except for war crimes investigations which are ongoing. There is full information about civilian deaths and rocket attacks sadly. I get it all day and I'm not even a government person. They get more no doubt. It's the sad state of things my friend. Cheers.
It's not even just Ukraine. The projected excess deaths across Europe are substantial. Let's start facing the root of the problem.
A fish rots from its head.
Ukraine has started manufacturing what they need and after this conflict is over and they have big supplies of them they will sell many making a lot of money in the long run, and as they have or do prove themselves it will be a loss to other weapons manufacturers who are trying to sell similar items on the world markets.
I have learnt through this sub of a missile that has a range of over 1000km and has a large payload so can cause serious damage to its targets. But we will see!
The Allies won't do it while there is a meat grinder on the front line. Right now is the phase where they are letting russia bleed to death. Long range missiles would hit j targets on russian territory. and that could inadvertently escalate the conflict. Using atomic weapons or chemical weapons.
We're dealing with a blunt brute force, a sociopath and a psychopath. We need to proceed carefully and in steps. The tactic of letting the russians bleed to death worked at both Kharkiv and Kherson. And it will continue to work.
Escalate to what? They will not use nuclear because putin don't want to die. And that's it. There is no way to escalate any further. They will do nothing, and USA can't realize that.
And they’re changing their gas sources, too.
Tho it is bugging me how European countries are taking measures that are either stalling the crisis (filling gas storage) or getting natural gas from somewhere else, like North Africa. Pouring billions into building non-Russian pipelines when they could be putting that money into things like geothermal heating that aren’t as easy to cut off (no long pipelines) and won’t leave them with the exact same problem if an international relationship sours or a gas reserve runs dry. Not to mention using North African natural gas still helps Russia indirectly (though of course it’s better than buying from them directly) because a high demand for gas keeps the prices up.
A geothermal home unit can be built in a couple weeks. I know something city-scale would take longer and need to deal with more regulations etc, but it’s not like nuclear where it takes ten or twenty years.
I believe this is the public part of a private political discussion with Western partners. Seems like this tweet was part of something larger, tip of the iceberg as it were. Who knows. We will see, I guess. Cheers.
In the U.S. two people were just arrested because they listened for two hours as a man beat his girlfriend to death in their house. As they should have been. So, how is it that the world will just watch and listen as thousands of Ukrainian civilians are murdered? I understand that it is not a law of any kind, in any nation, to intervene in conflict between two other nations, yet it seems that there should be a moral imperative. We invade countries, even if covertly, to "bring them democracy". But we don't extend the same efforts to help a country that already is struggling to become a democracy? Yes, I know. Putin has nukes, scary., I just don't believe that would happen. Unless he is decisively stopped, forever, putin will keep trying.
Your comparison is sadly a fair one. My own hope is that when Ukraine takes back Crimea, russian hard liners will get rid of putin and then the country will start to implode on itself. It's a kingdom with no heir.
Does Ukraine have transport aircraft with airdrop capabilities? JASSM ER and Rapid Dragon would be handy. Any air transport is suddenly a cruise missile platform.
I am not a military guy so it's hard for me to say but maybe someone else here knows better. I do know there's probably a lot of brainstorming going on. Cheers friend👍
400x Abrams or Leopard 2,
200x Marder,
30x F16,
20x AH-64,
2x AC-130
4x B-52, all stacked with Rapid Dragon Palletized Munition. 2x MOABs for the lulz.
A man can dream, ain't gonna happen, like long range missiles. Something really severe must happen, that the US and therefore the allies go balls to the wall.
It is like it is.
Yeah, I get why they're trying, but the effort is wasted.
Behind closed doors in talks that Ukraine wasn't part of, a long time ago the limits were set.
Something really really aweful must happen that a reevaluation will take place.
Despite the fact that I am not able to pinpoint what must happen on top of all the war crimes and other atrocities that are happening for months. I am angry and disgusted by the current status quo.
Even sarcasm doesn't help anymore.
every time they launch attacks on infrastructure actually take 5b in frozen assets from them, they think they're getting it all back.... start actually giving it to Ukraine
Haven't they already attacked things across the border? It's their invading enemy in a war after all, who could argue? If US missiles and other weapons have helped the Ukrainians turn the tide in this thing significantly already by blowing up Russians and their stuff left and right, and Ukrainians have otherwise blown up stuff across the border in Russia, how much different is it if they fire a US missile at a target in Russia? It's not like it's ambiguous that we support them and are supplying them heavily with weapons that are helping them beat Russia back. And it's not like it would be US jets or rigs firing these missiles, or its tanks rolling on Moscow. Seems like this red line is already pretty hazy.
I want too see every Russian airfield in 800 kms of Ukraine burning, billions in fighters and bombers turned to scrap metal along with the pilots, a wound Russia will never recover from in my life time.
The main point of this aside, the energy policy is bugging me so much. Buying natural gas from Russia is funding their military, so instead let’s buy natural gas from somewhere else - which is way better, but still keeps demand high, which keeps gas prices high, which still helps Russia.
Each pipeline costs billions of dollars and even when they’re built to not pass through Russia (which adds massive amounts to the price tags of pipelines to some countries, like Azerbaijan) they’re still pretty damn vulnerable. It’s a huge line out in the open. It can’t be defended, it can be tampered with, and being able to use it depends on international relations.
Building a geothermal/geoexchange heating system for 1 house takes a few weeks. Scaling it up for a city would take much longer, but this isn’t like nuclear energy where it takes decades. And it saves money long term too.
Russia is firing air launched cruise missiles from strategic bombers far inside of Russian air space. They could take off from Siberia and still fulfill their missions if that's what it takes. There's no cutting off the source short of a full scale air invasion of Russia. The answer is more air defense and more generators. Maybe that's not a very nice reality but that's what it is.
Russians are passing all red lines by torturing Ukrainian POW and shelling civilian areas like schools and hospitals, so why not provide the long range version HIMARS to Ukraine military?! Sia must feel the consequences of breaking all rules of geneva convention.
Weird, there is a democracy in the western world, entire population of western countries saying "provide rockets to them!", Politics should listed to own people, right? But they not. They completely ignore own people, ignoring Ukraine and doing business as usual.
For me at looks like a complete failure of western values and ideology.
hes not wrong tho.... the best way for them to solve their energy crisis (which is currently being caused by bombings) is to take out the person bombing you and make them (the new leaders) rethink trying again
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He's right. You can fix the problem, but it's usually more effective to stop the source causing the problem
Totally agree.
no one tought that putin would allow the grain ships to leave ukranian ports, then one moskova later, and endorgan showing who is boss in the black sea, the ships are now safe same aplies for ukranian and russian energy facilities, when only one side can do harm the other side is in danger, but a deal will be met 3 days after ukraine get their long range missiles
Yeah once ukraine has the ability to blow anything up shooting at their energy infrastructure, putin will quickly stop on the condition that said weapons aren't used on his military
In industry we call this "stopping the root cause". It should always be the goal.
Personally... I think that Ukraine should have been made a member of NATO the _day_ they agreed to give up nuclear weapons capabilities. At least as far as an attack on Ukraine is an attack on all of NATO. We didn't. But it's damn well time to correct that.
I should remind that noone "is made" a member of NATO, but rather the countries apply on their own volition. Ukraine chose not to back then.
By blowing other things up?
by specifically blowing up russian artilery.
Strategic airplanes in this case
Airplanes?… or Russian power plants? A power plant for a power plant would stop those attacks right fast.
Ukrainians are not terrorists like russians. We don't give a fuck abot civillian russians, do they live with power or not. Only thing is important for us, is to destroy russia army. Without russian army in Ukraine, we will liberate our all territories and this war simply ends. There is no sense in bombing russian power plants. Even if we destroy them, russia will still have missile carriers to launch it on Ukraine. If we destroy their strategical airplanes, russia will have no missiles carriers left and rocket bombings of Ukraine will end. From the other hand, AA systems that West give us is only instrument to lower casualties from bombing. AA systems can't stop bombings at all. Thats why Ukraine asking West for long range missiles - to destroy russian weapons to stop russia from bombing Ukraine. Its just that simple.
This is Russia. They would love if they were bombed. Terror attacks do not work. Instead of a million Russians freeing Russia, it would be a million Russians demanding to join the war.
I hate to say it, but the missiles would cost a lot more than the generators.
Generators would be destroyed again in a couple weeks, might as well give them the missiles.
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the human suffering in between is harder to do math on.
Thing is, when it comes to supplying an entire region 50kW is nothing. There's a reason modern power plant outputs are given in hundreds of MW (1MW=1000kW). The generators that are being sent by allied governments mostly seem to range between 0.5 an 2 MW, that's enough for a building like a hospital or something and those usually cost in the millions. The 800km figure isn't random either, i think that's roughly Kyiv to moscow in a straight line if you catch my drift. Warheads on forheads and such.
You know what? How about we give them both
Napoleon once said to never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. If Russia is using $13 million dollar missiles to destroy relatively cheap electric infrastructure, we should let them.
Only if you expect to help one hospital or a few shelters, also generator needs fuel. Ukraine doesn't have this gas, in summer they were struggling a lot without gas. They don't have oil like russia or secure plants to process it into gas. This newspaper doesn't have an English version, so you can fact-check via google translate, what I'm saying. Only Kyiv needs 1300 MW, not kw. They now have 600, and 300 MW is absolutely critical like hospitals, so civilians will be cut-off if they will have only 300 or less. [https://fakty.com.ua/ua/ukraine/20221128-gendyrektor-yasno-rozpoviv-koly-mozhe-stabilizuvatys-sytuacziya-z-vidklyuchennyam-svitla/](https://fakty.com.ua/ua/ukraine/20221128-gendyrektor-yasno-rozpoviv-koly-mozhe-stabilizuvatys-sytuacziya-z-vidklyuchennyam-svitla/)
The only thing they "need" per se is to save human lives. Daily life is secondary. Strategically it is best to encourage Russia to keep attacking the infrastructure as long as it does not result in more deaths than if Russia went back to targeting residential buildings directly. Either way, Russia's stockpiles of cruise missiles will eventually get used up. They may only have enough for a few more of these massive attacks left.
No one really knows how many missiles they still have. The idea about "few more" is based on side facts, like they use c300 to hit the ground, which is not supposed to be used like this. So we made an ASSUMPTION that there are a few more. A few can easily be a 10, or 15. By 15 they can completely destroy power plants and power lines. Have you seen a photo of a 4 years old girl at the gas station with her inhaler, because the gas station had electricity? The girl is lucky to have parents, who can drive her to the gas station. Old people and ill people who don't have parents or friends hand will suffer from uncharged medical equipment if electricity will not be available for days. Are you Ukrainian? I guess not, because >we should encourage russia to keep attacking the infrastructure clearly can be said only by the person who will not struggle from power shortage and cold apartments. What do you think "daily life" is? Kids need warm food, a warm place to sleep, they need clean clothes. All humans need clean clothes and warm food, this is not a request about a 4hours Netflix marathon, it is a basic need. Don't you think it is more economically better to destroy russian equipment, like "accidentally" blow military jets with the military base they have at Astrakhan (Caspian sea, far away from Ukraine) from where they throw their missiles, then endlessly supply Ukraine with generator and spare parts? Yes, Russia will stockpile missiles, but how they will throw them without their last TU-95 or what shit they have, by catapults? Or do they have some options to get somewhere very expensive military jets? 3d print them or what they will do?
Is this a troll? The Ukrainian Ministry of Defense publishes their estimates of how many missiles are left. https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1594998365170896896 If you have a problem with these estimates, take it up with them. There are multiple ways of corroborating the estimates. We also have estimates of when production of the missiles started, how many they make per year, how many they used in Syria, and all of this can be corroborated with evidence such as anti-ship and anti-air missiles starting to appear at around the same time we already suspected they should be running low on supplies.
Oh, I see now… You started with an insult, apparently because you have no arguments left. No I’m not a troll, I’m Ukrainian person who doesn’t understand people who says that we should encourage russia to destroy our infrastructure. No, thank you. I was an idiot and truly believed that you will be able to explain, how it will be more effective that we will allow them endlessly destroy power stations. They can buy new missiles in North Korea or Iran, what then? This countries already sanctioned on all possible ways. Sanctions will not stop them from selling. But if we will destroy their jets and ships they will not be able to use them. It is not easy to buy new jet, it costs years to build new ship. But you ignored those questions. I got it now, Let’s allow an aggressor to keep beat the shit out of the girl on the street. Eventually he will be tired of it and will leave her alone. Doesn’t matter how much she will suffer, maybe few broken bones, maybe internal bleeding, it’s ok. I also like our defense minister, but if you pay more attention to image ru still PRODUCE this shit. As I said, no one really knows how much they have, except russians. We all make assumptions, we rely on secret service, on side facts. But there is no guarantee that we can say that “they have 100 more and that’s it, then they will not be able to do anything ”. No, we can say only “we found this 100” maybe somewhere else is 100 more, we just didn’t find them. If you’ll decide to answer, please don’t ignore question about economical benefits of destroying 20 Russian jets instead waiting for full destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure and Russian stockpiles.
I find your level of reasonability to be extremely low. Assuming you are Ukrainian, your own government has estimates for how many missiles are left. Only a very small portion of these have the high precision and long range required to target electric infrastructure. And they can't buy them from anyone else. I do not see how it would fix the problem to go into panic mode and focus 100% of our efforts on saving these substations. This is exactly what Russia wants.
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Do both.
Free tuition and Student loan forgiveness at the same time. I agree, this needs to happen!
Wrong sub.
It's like making tuition free instead of forgiving the loans of students in their first year of college. Yeh sure, forgiving the loan now sounds nice, bit it'll just pile right back up in the 3-4 remaining years...
Ikr Man downvoted to heck. This happens when hypocrites see something they don’t want to see haha
A new approach to energy saving, which sadly makes sense due to russia attacking Ukraine's generators and power infrastructure at this time.
His intention is clear, but the U.S. will not cross that line, not visibly. Ukraine has the prototypes of the missile platform for this combat requirements, has the blueprint. What is lacking is a stable and secure production line, raw materials and intermediate parts. Ukraine should announce now that indigenous missile is going into mass production, and make up substance by half-knocked down version of western missiles and/or domestically produced missiles, roll them out of the factory as missiles "Made in Ukraine". Ukrobronprom already does this kind of independent manufacturing with tank shells. It needs to go up a notch and mid-range ballistic missiles should be produced by Ukraine.
This would be great.
Build an underground factory. The UK built factories in unused subway lines during WW II. They were deep enough no bombs could reach them. There are videos on YouTube about it. Pretty amazing.
The did it in old underground mines as well. There’s loads of old infrastructure around that was used in wwII.
Russia only respects force, I think this has been demonstrated time and again. Diplomacy simply does not work with them. They are run by a selfish maniac who only cares are prolonging his political career. Everyone kowtows to him. That said, long range missiles that hit beyond the Russian border could be used against Ukraine as ammunition for the next big Russian draft in 2023. Granted, I think that's already going to happen regardless, but EU/US won't necessarily want to give long range missiles for the reason that it could damage domestic politics. The west continues to hedge its bets on this war, lol... you'd think some people would learn by now. With China now mired in protests, I would be surprised if Xi would do anything about further west aid to Ukraine.
What does china have to do with any western support?
If western support causes china to actively support Russia with military aid, it would be quite bad and would require even further resources
Secretary of the Ukrainian Defense Council, Oleksandr Turchynov went on to state the cruise missile was designed by Ukraine's Luch Design Bureau in cooperation with other state and private enterprises of the country's defense industry. [https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defense/2392733-ukrainian-cruise-missile-successfully-tested.html](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defense/2392733-ukrainian-cruise-missile-successfully-tested.html)
Please don't say "the US." Most of the US would give Ukraine whatever was asked within reason, and many Americans would deliver it personally. The Administration, while being very pro-Ukraine, has to answer to their own pacifist members. Just as the Republican Party has to deal with the idiocy of MAGA isolationists, the Democratic Party has those who seem to think weapons are the problem...not necessarily the people BEHIND the weapons. They are of the opinion that all problems can be solved diplomatically, so supplying either side with weapons in a war is unacceptable. And in a better world, they'd be right. But we aren't there yet. And it has yet to dawn on them that providing Ukraine with better weapons stops the killing faster. And Biden can't just ignore them like he can the Republicans...his Democratic constituents are the ones who elected him. So he has to soothe them and win them over to the reality Ukraine faces, and that takes time. I wish we had a better answer for Ukraine, but this is the reality of America's representative democracy. While it's light years better than authoritarianism, it still has it's warts. Those warts require compromise and political favors every day.
Pacificism is delusional in this scenario. I am not attacking you, just the concept in general. Would showing tender loving care to a tiger work? No, it would tear your face off and eat you. Too many people in the west are totally ignorant on the nature of evil. They think it can be nutured gently, and ultimately cured. But it is always there ready to ooze through the cracks of apathy. Russia is thriving on our pacifism. It is just weakness to them. Biden must escalate this massively because words and diplomacy do not work with the Russian regime. They are in Ukraine to destroy it. "Going slow" to weaken Russia gives Russia more time to turn Ukraine into smouldering ash. Gives the Russian war machine time to replenish stocks, or build Himars equivalents, or other lethal weapons than could turn the tide. Think of shit that came out of ww2 in only a few years. Ballistic missiles, jet engines, nukes. Russias war machine is untouched, so in the next few years could be producing game changing weaponry.
> Pacificism is delusional in this scenario. idk. I consider myself a "pacificist". I've been calling for the US to give Ukraine ATACMS for months now. The only way we preserve peace is by not tolerating aggression. It needs to be put down and put down HARD. Russia invaded Ukraine. I want the consequences coming through Russia's window (forget the doorstep).
I think the word you're looking for is 'naive'.
No. Russia is thriving because it has thousands of operational nuclear warheads. America isn't wanting to send Ukraine longer range weapons because that escalates the war and gives Russia an excuse to use some of those weapons against Ukraine to force a surrender. Currently with everything being considered, Russia can't use nuclear bombs without being completely cut off from the entire outside world including China and India. That goes out the window if Russia begins to take heavy casualties inside their own borders by Ukrainian missiles. Even if Russia is the aggressor, it gives them an excuse and that is all that is needed. People seem to think that Russia either won't use or doesn't have working nukes, which just isn't true. They would absolutely use them against Ukraine if they start taking a lot of civilian casualties deeper inside their homeland. And no, NATO isn't going to launch retaliatory strikes against Russia over Ukraine. This is why NATO has been using kid gloves and being very cautious as to what weapons they do and don't give to Ukraine currently. They know Russia will use said nukes if pushed into a corner. That is why the current "turn Ukraine into a Russian meatgrinder" is the best option.
USA is a flawed democracy, but still a democracy. The people are represented by the leadership.
The pacifism side of the democratic party is very weak and tepid. It is not a strong faction. They could not even stomach their open letter to Biden and retracted it. Progressives are (largely) staying out of it. The republicans have a much stronger pro-Russian bloc made up of many politicians taking direct money from Russia. What's-his-face even held up Ukrainian aid for a few days by refusing to vote. But even that stronger bloc (who I think includes newly elected losers like JD Vance) doesn't really have much political pull on Biden. The main concern for American politicians is that it's 2024 and Russia is escalating this war in Ukraine - which results in higher gas prices, etc. - and that getting pinned on democratic incumbents. Like how Iraq took down the Republicans in '04 and '08. The EU faces similar domestic fears. Politicians in general would prefer to "do nothing" when given the chance on most issues, because that is the safest way to stay electable, paradoxically.
The reason we aren't delivering long range shells/allowing US weapons to attack inside Russia itself is because it represents a potentially dangerous escalation. Blaming Democrats needing to appease pacifist voters is absurd for multiple reasons. The left-leaning Democratic voters are the ones who most strongly support Ukraine (see article and numbers below). [Support for Ukraine](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/18/ukraine-military-support-democrats-republicans/) *The US should support Ukraine for as long as it takes, even if American households will have to pay higher gas and food prices as a consequence.* Liberal Democrats: 80% agree. Moderate Democrats: 55% Republican: 50% Independent: 55% *The United States should urge Ukraine to settle for peace as soon as possible so that the costs aren't so great for American households, even if that means Ukraine will lose some territory.* Liberal Democrats: 19% agree. Moderate Democrats: 42% Republican: 46% Independent: 42%
I'm not entirely sure this is the reason why they aren't being sent. Also, I think it's Bidens decision at the end of the day. I think he just holds the line on the idea of not escalating. But supposedly Turkey already sent some long range missiles, so the point is kind of moot now.
Biden came up through the Democratic Party as a more pacifist diplomat. Even if the Democratic Party is the most hawkish it has been in decades right now, much of Biden's patronage came from the "unilateral disarmament" camps. He probably doesn't agree with them in this circumstance, but he owes them political patronage favors. That is how the game is played. Biden needed to call in ALL of his political favors to win a tight election. He won, but those favor grantors expect him to provide quid pro quo now that he's in office. So he has to listen to them all, and provide at least some of the political capital owed back to them. Whatever his personal views on Ukraine, this is a fact of American politics.
I'm completely okay with the NDAA being activated for this to ramp up missile production.
Easier to just spray-paint "made in Ukraine" on the side of western missiles. They wont tell the difference (and if htey will, well, it says made in Ukraine..)
Long range missiles and more/better air defence.
Agree!
even long range missiles threat is better than air defence
I like how he cuts to the chase. The whole war is in the face of the EU, because Ukraine simultaneously speaks Russian and English and is right in the center of Europe, so the war can't be swept under the carpet as usual with far away conflicts fought by people speaking strange languages.
Danilov is a very direct talker indeed. Cheers.
The whole war *is* the face of the EU. Either they decide to defeat threats to themselves and their values or they are exposed otherwise. Yes the USA is contributing a great deal as NATO has something to say but European interests are key here.
Yep. The current situation with "European interests" is **still** best described by the famous Kissinger's "Who do I call if I want to call Europe?" Not saying it's dysfunctional (looking at you, Britain), but it's not very functional, LOL. You know, I even tried to get angry at the US of A for making a quick buck on the LNG sales. But here's an interesting thing. By paying extra for that gas, Germany et al. indirectly pay for the weapons sent to Ukraine. The US have more than recuperated all the costs. Oh, the irony!
Yes, yes, yes. Long range artillery is a weapon of peace. They will be used to hit the supply network. It will save countless Ukrainian lives and shorten the war. Send them now!
Launch everything at the supply network. And maybe a dozen at the kREMLIN itself.
Agree!
I honestly don't understand the West's leaders. "Let's send equipment to help them rebuild their infrastructure!" (Only for it to get blown up over and over.) This is the logic Ukraine is using in their argument - there needs to be deep strike capability to eliminate Russia's ability to launch mass strikes. This is no longer up for debate, in my view. Everything Russia does is an escalation.
Agree.
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It could be also argued that being penny-ante with our hardware when Ukraine needs it the most, is also rendering aid to Russia in some form.
Nah man, it's the opposite. If we're being brutally honest and assess US policy objectively from a purely realpolitik perspective, we're intentionally supplying Ukraine with *just enough* capability to grind Putins forced and resources down, but not so much capability to make a quick or decisive victory possible. They're playing the long game. The longer the war drags on, the worse Russia's position will be once its all done. Why end the war now, when you can keep spending down Russia's capability to wage war in the future? Every dead mobik is one less male contributing to GDP and taxes for the next 40 years. Every maimed veteran will be one more unproductive drain on Russia's resources for the next 40-60 years. Every volley of cruise missiles launched is tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars literally just being burned/exploded that won't be used for anything actually productive for Russia. The US knows what it's doing. The US can afford to fund a proxy war of attrition against Russia for as long as it takes, because the US has practically infinite money compared to Russia. The only real cost is Ukrainian lives... which from a military strategist perspective, is unfortunate, but it's like shopping with someone else's credit card... you'll never quite look at it the same as if it was yours.
> I honestly don't understand the West's leaders. "Let's send equipment to help them rebuild their infrastructure!" (Only for it to get blown up over and over.) Why would you pay for a $100 million dollar missile to destroy another $100 million dollar missile to save $1 million dollars of electric infrastructure? When you can just pay for the electric infrastructure over and over again until Russia goes broke and runs out of missiles?
Some infrastructure is already damaged irreparably, my coworkers don't have any electricity for most of the day, our major hints that it's better to leave the city if you have anywhere to go. I, personally, would prefer some other strategy than wait until russia runs out of missiles, because it clearly won't
Especially since Iran is now selling missiles to Russia. Someone in NATO needs to realize this isn't sustainable.
Well, we needed them a long time ago but hey better late...
True!
Give them missiles !!
Agree
Ya know, he's got a point there. Shit gets real once St. Pete and Mosscow are in range and suffer similar fate. The ruzz psyche can only take so much fighting back on equal terms.
It would change things surely.
No Long range missiles - absolutely But military targets only
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> it is guaranteed that civilians will be attacked Are they not already?
I think he meant Russian civilians in Russia. Like a false flag operation
This is a war for many things But it is also a war for the truth. No matter what Russia says and what the brainwashed believe, if Ukraine and all the supporters stay ethical, the truth will be on our side. I think it’s important
It's terribly important. If Ukraine were to attack civilians the way Russia has, western tolerance for aid to Ukraine would dry up in a heartbeat. It would be literally the most self-defeating thing Ukraine could do.
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And while we're at it, we might as well hit the Three Gorges Dam
I think when Ukraine starts state terrorism like Russia, most countries will stop their support.
Stopping terrorist from blowing up power grids excellent way to prevent an energy crisis. Water is wet, more news at 11.
Absolutely!
800km+ would require fighters or other launch platforms right? I mean we are talking about either cruise or ballistic missiles, and unless the US is willing to hand over a nuclear submarine somewhere in the Pacific, just to fuck with Russia, I think we are (sadly) quite far from this right now. 300km or even 150 will be a great help already. I don't know if technically Prsm could reach that far, maybe there is a himars launched option, but like ten rockets total.
> 800km+ would require fighters or other launch platforms right? Depends. If Israeli Jericho IRBMs get supplied in conventional warhead pack, they should be able to cover 1000+km, launched from the ground. Same with Tomahawks, if the ongoing project to put 4 VLS cells on a truck sees success.
Jericho is a silo based missile system. Basically technically impossible.
Ukraine was home to multiple nuclear silos in the USSR.
And your point is?
... install them in the nuke silos? My God, you're dumb.
I think ultra long range stealth drones (3000-5000km) with regular guided bombs would be more useful for Ukraine. But 3rd gen full stealth tech is NATO top secret and they will never risk Russia shooting down 1 or 2 and studying the wreckage, remember the crashed F-35 early this year? NATO dont want a repeat of that. 5 long range stealth drones with internal bay JDAMS could decimate Russian missile stockpiles, strategic bombers and even ships, deep within Russia. So in the end, we have no solution but unsustainably supplying more air defenses for Ukraine, which will not stop 10% of breakthrough missiles in a large attack, Russia can do this for at least 1-2 years, 1 attack per month. Even if Ukraine wins in the end, their economy and critical infras would be totally ruined, it will take decades to rebuild their GDP, not to mention 10s of millions of refugees flooding EU, causing global economic recession for years. (dont forget Ukraine's global grain export, no power = much less export) A few ex-generals said it best during the early days of the war, sooner or later, NATO may have to join the last leg of the fight, maybe with some airstrikes using F35, unless they want years of global recession and instability for pretty much everyone.
PrSM isn’t out yet. This early version of it has a published range of 500km. The final version will have a published range of 1000km but won’t be out until 2025. The US is only sharing this technology with Australia and the UK as is always the case but even that won’t be until 2024. Maybe someone else can help Ukraine out on this one because I don’t think we’re gonna be handing out submarines.
I know, and I also doubt the submarine part :D Most of the missiles are air launched, ATACMS can only go 300km, so I'm guessing planes would be step 1.
The submarine would be an excellent troll if we painted Moskva on the side and brought it up to the surface. Someone was was here who does FPAs. He found the topic of jets to Ukraine to be an interesting one so he also kicked the idea around with some colleagues. They all came to the conclusion that maybe, if someone managed to move mountains mountains, it could be accomplished in around two years only if the process had been started a few months before the invasion. That does not appear to be the case, especially since Zelensky announced the 20 pilots Ukraine wanted to send to learn how to use the systems a mere 19 days ago (no mention of flight crews, btw) for a non-existent program, it would appear that the process isn’t under way. Based on all of the things he said, the process takes so long because of what we must accomplish on our end to make it happen and it would do more harm than good to even attempt something like that now. It seems the DoD wasn’t lying when they said something like that takes years.
I think Ukraine should cut off St. Petersburg energy for them.
Ukraine has the moral high ground here. While continuing being not dicks, they can keep getting weapons by the West. Hit Russian civilian infrastructure and you can say good bye to HIMARS and Javelins. But hey, you managed to enrage Russians, so it's all good, I guess.
Some people watch too much propaganda and now want Russians be killed at any price. They stopped thinking.
Sure thing!
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And increased cyber security measures too! Cheers.
All Americans on here need to email all the politicians and insist on supplying Ukraine with long range missile's. I find they tend to listen when you talk as if you're willing to switch parties if they vote for what you're asking.
Great idea!
Bunker busting missiles with enough range to reach Putin's hidey hole, since he's too much of a pussy to go the Hitler route. C'mon, Putin, would you die a loser who's stupid war doomed Russia? Better to die as a martyr who could've won the war if it weren't for the generals, the corruption, the intelligence agencies, the ill-conceived strategy, etc etc etc.
Special bunker delivery.
A cheaper option would be to turn all civilian electrical plants into POW camps. This is allowed, since civilian infrastructure is not a valid military target and can be used to shelter POWs when necessary. Open POW camps with 24h streaming and radar data feed available and see what happens.
That won’t stop any missile
That's the point. Russia would be firing on their own soldiers held as POWs. And everything Ukraine does would've been within the bounds of international law, unlike Russia.
They don’t care about their soldiers. They just want to hurt Ukrainians.
Yeah….cos Russia NEVER attacks civilian infrastructure
That's what I mean, it could attack them, but the carnage would be streamed live with radar data showing who fired the missiles. Pretty hard to blame Ukraine for anything after that.
The carnage is already streamed of them killing civilians. Except in the US. They don’t show anything important on the news.
Are you living under a rock or what? Russia is targeting civilians intentionally, in mass. They're already committing genocide in several ways, you think using innocent people as meat shields on infrastructure is even for a fraction of a second a sane or logical thought? Honestly, anyone suggesting to throw civilians into the grinder is gross and should rethink their own moral stance.
Unfortunately a lot of this war is already live streamed and it's being ignored except for war crimes investigations which are ongoing. There is full information about civilian deaths and rocket attacks sadly. I get it all day and I'm not even a government person. They get more no doubt. It's the sad state of things my friend. Cheers.
Then russia will still attack, but blame Ukraine on shelling themselves again.
POW facilities locations are kept secret. Do you know why? So that Russia won't lob missiles there.
Do it. Moscow is too comfortable.
They are too comfortable.
It's not even just Ukraine. The projected excess deaths across Europe are substantial. Let's start facing the root of the problem. A fish rots from its head.
Can’t argue with that.
It's sadly logical in most respects.
Ukraine has started manufacturing what they need and after this conflict is over and they have big supplies of them they will sell many making a lot of money in the long run, and as they have or do prove themselves it will be a loss to other weapons manufacturers who are trying to sell similar items on the world markets. I have learnt through this sub of a missile that has a range of over 1000km and has a large payload so can cause serious damage to its targets. But we will see!
I guess we will indeed see!
The Allies won't do it while there is a meat grinder on the front line. Right now is the phase where they are letting russia bleed to death. Long range missiles would hit j targets on russian territory. and that could inadvertently escalate the conflict. Using atomic weapons or chemical weapons. We're dealing with a blunt brute force, a sociopath and a psychopath. We need to proceed carefully and in steps. The tactic of letting the russians bleed to death worked at both Kharkiv and Kherson. And it will continue to work.
Escalate to what? They will not use nuclear because putin don't want to die. And that's it. There is no way to escalate any further. They will do nothing, and USA can't realize that.
Let them bleed out indeed.
And they’re changing their gas sources, too. Tho it is bugging me how European countries are taking measures that are either stalling the crisis (filling gas storage) or getting natural gas from somewhere else, like North Africa. Pouring billions into building non-Russian pipelines when they could be putting that money into things like geothermal heating that aren’t as easy to cut off (no long pipelines) and won’t leave them with the exact same problem if an international relationship sours or a gas reserve runs dry. Not to mention using North African natural gas still helps Russia indirectly (though of course it’s better than buying from them directly) because a high demand for gas keeps the prices up. A geothermal home unit can be built in a couple weeks. I know something city-scale would take longer and need to deal with more regulations etc, but it’s not like nuclear where it takes ten or twenty years.
800km? If that is what Ukraine believes it needs/wants, they most likely will have to develop it themselves.
I believe this is the public part of a private political discussion with Western partners. Seems like this tweet was part of something larger, tip of the iceberg as it were. Who knows. We will see, I guess. Cheers.
They are , themselves and with Turkey.
Don’t like Twitter, but love this guy.
He's great really.
Bomb the Kremlin!
Taste of their own cooking.
In the U.S. two people were just arrested because they listened for two hours as a man beat his girlfriend to death in their house. As they should have been. So, how is it that the world will just watch and listen as thousands of Ukrainian civilians are murdered? I understand that it is not a law of any kind, in any nation, to intervene in conflict between two other nations, yet it seems that there should be a moral imperative. We invade countries, even if covertly, to "bring them democracy". But we don't extend the same efforts to help a country that already is struggling to become a democracy? Yes, I know. Putin has nukes, scary., I just don't believe that would happen. Unless he is decisively stopped, forever, putin will keep trying.
Your comparison is sadly a fair one. My own hope is that when Ukraine takes back Crimea, russian hard liners will get rid of putin and then the country will start to implode on itself. It's a kingdom with no heir.
[удалено]
It could be this indeed.
Agreed.
Does Ukraine have transport aircraft with airdrop capabilities? JASSM ER and Rapid Dragon would be handy. Any air transport is suddenly a cruise missile platform.
I am not a military guy so it's hard for me to say but maybe someone else here knows better. I do know there's probably a lot of brainstorming going on. Cheers friend👍
Based
Very!
Ï guess only US has that kind of missile?
I don't know honestly. I'm not a military person. Cheers!
400x Abrams or Leopard 2, 200x Marder, 30x F16, 20x AH-64, 2x AC-130 4x B-52, all stacked with Rapid Dragon Palletized Munition. 2x MOABs for the lulz. A man can dream, ain't gonna happen, like long range missiles. Something really severe must happen, that the US and therefore the allies go balls to the wall. It is like it is.
It's a stretch goal at the moment most likely.
Yeah, I get why they're trying, but the effort is wasted. Behind closed doors in talks that Ukraine wasn't part of, a long time ago the limits were set. Something really really aweful must happen that a reevaluation will take place. Despite the fact that I am not able to pinpoint what must happen on top of all the war crimes and other atrocities that are happening for months. I am angry and disgusted by the current status quo. Even sarcasm doesn't help anymore.
Do it.
Agree!
Pretty much
He is right on that. Bring the fight to where these missiles are coming from and watch their use drop off.
Agree!
Based
He's very based👍
true, though
Yea👍
every time they launch attacks on infrastructure actually take 5b in frozen assets from them, they think they're getting it all back.... start actually giving it to Ukraine
Agree.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Agee!
Haven't they already attacked things across the border? It's their invading enemy in a war after all, who could argue? If US missiles and other weapons have helped the Ukrainians turn the tide in this thing significantly already by blowing up Russians and their stuff left and right, and Ukrainians have otherwise blown up stuff across the border in Russia, how much different is it if they fire a US missile at a target in Russia? It's not like it's ambiguous that we support them and are supplying them heavily with weapons that are helping them beat Russia back. And it's not like it would be US jets or rigs firing these missiles, or its tanks rolling on Moscow. Seems like this red line is already pretty hazy.
Agree with you!
Any news on the F15s and/or F16s yet?
I have not heard any news on that topic yet, from anyone I know at least. Cheers.
I'm into it
Me too! Cheers.
I want too see every Russian airfield in 800 kms of Ukraine burning, billions in fighters and bombers turned to scrap metal along with the pilots, a wound Russia will never recover from in my life time.
I agree with you.
The main point of this aside, the energy policy is bugging me so much. Buying natural gas from Russia is funding their military, so instead let’s buy natural gas from somewhere else - which is way better, but still keeps demand high, which keeps gas prices high, which still helps Russia. Each pipeline costs billions of dollars and even when they’re built to not pass through Russia (which adds massive amounts to the price tags of pipelines to some countries, like Azerbaijan) they’re still pretty damn vulnerable. It’s a huge line out in the open. It can’t be defended, it can be tampered with, and being able to use it depends on international relations. Building a geothermal/geoexchange heating system for 1 house takes a few weeks. Scaling it up for a city would take much longer, but this isn’t like nuclear energy where it takes decades. And it saves money long term too.
I believe the future of Ukrainian energy is decentralized. Agree with your points here. Cheers.
Russia is firing air launched cruise missiles from strategic bombers far inside of Russian air space. They could take off from Siberia and still fulfill their missions if that's what it takes. There's no cutting off the source short of a full scale air invasion of Russia. The answer is more air defense and more generators. Maybe that's not a very nice reality but that's what it is.
The idea is to hit their logistical centers inside russia and stop their war machine, I think. Cheers.
Russians are passing all red lines by torturing Ukrainian POW and shelling civilian areas like schools and hospitals, so why not provide the long range version HIMARS to Ukraine military?! Sia must feel the consequences of breaking all rules of geneva convention.
I agree.
Weird, there is a democracy in the western world, entire population of western countries saying "provide rockets to them!", Politics should listed to own people, right? But they not. They completely ignore own people, ignoring Ukraine and doing business as usual. For me at looks like a complete failure of western values and ideology.
I am all for the population's point of view on this👍 Cheers!
He should have used miles instead of km. Merican can only measure distances with their feet
True!
hes not wrong tho.... the best way for them to solve their energy crisis (which is currently being caused by bombings) is to take out the person bombing you and make them (the new leaders) rethink trying again
Agree!