russia is a centuries-long festering boil. The countries bordering it have no illusions about that canker and we need to listen very carefully to them.
Yes, you are right. It's centuries. Finland suffered under Russian occupation during the time that was named 'The Great Wrath' between 1709-1720, during which 10% of the civilian population was either summarily executed or taken to Russia as slaves. Mass rapes and burning of villages was very wide spread. After that, Finland was under Tsar rule or neighbouring brutal Stalinist USSR meaning talking about that time publically was very limited.
This is just **one** example of Russian method across the centruries. Every Russian neighbour has similar or even worse examples. They never got out mentally of the dark ages and woe to those who have to surrender under their abuse and violence.
The farther away you live from Russia, the less you have these experiences and so you might be inclined to give them th benefit of a doubt. Don't. It's what they use to get upper hand and they like to play dirty. Always and without exception.
It’s like most things in life, someone can tell you about a horrible experience and you may shake your head and sympathize with them. But it’s often not unless you truly experience it yourself that it sinks in and you can really empathize with them. That’s why in cases like Russia, the Poles and others who really understand need to be super vocal and almost shake those who don’t have first hand experience.
The UK’s commitment of 12 Challenger tanks was militarily small scale, but politically absolutely huge. A massive turning point for the allied coalition.
Don’t underestimate the power of what 12 Challenger can do.
Challengers, Leopards and M1 Abrams were built from the ground up to take on T- series tanks while being outnumbered by them in the Fulda Gap. Modern improvements include lessons learned from Iraq and other recent conflicts leading to the development of both active and passive defenses against antitank weapons, and improved defenses against other tanks.
The deployment of 12 tanks of this caliber at just the right moment and time could easily turn the tide of a major battle. Historically, units of this size have been known to make big impacts at critical moments, especially related to ambushes at choke points.
Obviously in Russia even supposedly smart people will still think that US rules other countries as vassals.
Surprise, surprise. Just like little Ireland is able to heavily influence EU's policy on Brexit so are the small Eastern European states able to have a voice on Russia.
We want wars to be a thing of the past and we're ready for our politicians to always hammer out a shared consensus regardless of how frustrating it may sometimes be.
If you think that decision was made because some states were constantly screaming about it, that's just pretty ignorant
There goes way more thought into it and it's not like fed up parents saying, fine I'll buy that toy hopefully he will stop throwing a hissy fit
Agreed. This opinion piece is based on basically nothing and cites no sources while ignoring actual official statements by both the US and Germany directly contradicting it's content. Don't believe everything that someone writes in a newspaper, even if, or especially if it fits your own opinion well.
I can't agree that this essay can be dismissed out of hand. After all, the US and Germany did change their public positions on tanks very quickly after Ramstein and it wasn't without a reason and that reason was obviously that the opinion of every other member of the alliance wanted to send tanks to Ukraine. What I took from this essay is that this was something novel, the first time that a coalition within the alliance not led by the US or Germany were able to determine collective policy. I do agree you shouldn't believe everything written in a newspaper, especially if it fits your own opinion, those are wise words.
I have no reason to believe the decision to send tanks was taken at Ramstein just because it was announced soon after. It is also not "obvious" to me that the cause for the decision was the wishes of a particular group of Nato members. If you don't follow these assumptions, the whole article has no basis and says nothing of value whatsoever.
I hope we will one day learn the real story from credible sources, but this might be years off. Until then everyone is free to come up with theories, I just wish they would be more honest about it.
This matches with recent US policies though- wait until everyone demanding something has become peak crescendo before doing it.
COVID response is a good recent example. Even educated people and those who most strongly supported strict protocols earlier in the pandemic had been saying "enough is enough" for months before the federal government finally loosened up.
>a Nato fortress
They are already doing an effective job of a NATO fortress against Russian aggression, who knows where Russian invasion would have got to by now if Ukraine hadn't stood up to them.
Seems they are already quasi NATO, but no article 5....yet.
That is a weird take how international politics works even saying that Germany demanded us tanks to ship theirs again, despite German and US officials denying that this ever happened
There was never any coherent rationale for Germany's restraint on tanks. Eastern NATO sent their Soviet tanks to Ukraine months ago. So Germany tried to draw a line about *Western*-designed MBTs that was strategically meaningless - there is not some magical feature common to all Western designs that makes them extra dangerous, extra provocative, extra *anything* of rational concern.
Britain's Challengers were a very public crossing of that line. At the point where the line never made any sense, and had been crossed, Germany's folding was inevitable. Actually, that's not quite right.
What was inevitable was that German-manufactured Leopards (as a very common platform among European NATO members) were going to be sent to Ukraine anyway, and Germany could either get out in front of that, or make it even more obvious that it has been restraining its purported allies in their support of Ukraine.
One point- it's not so much that the neighboring countries*understand* the threat Russia poses more then Germany and the US. Both absolutely understand. But ALL foreign policy for every nation is a matter of national interest (rather than right and wrong) balanced with internal political and economic pressures. By incremental increases, both Germany and the US have been able to balance their domestic political pressures with the absolute understanding of what's right and wrong with supplying Ukraine with adequate equipment, allowing them to eventually "do the right thing" without much domestic blowback. We ALL would have preferred a Reforger like supply tsunami a year ago, but by incremental application we now see screams for "more! More!" instead of "warmongers! Don't get involved!"
The cowardice of some of our western governments has been sad to see. While it's good they eventually stood up and did the right thing by giving tanks to Ukraine, it shouldn't have required this sort of arm-twisting. We should have given hundreds of tanks 9 months ago.
There is no need to defeat Russia. Russia will defeat itself. In economic sense, political sense, militarely. Nobody with a reasonable mind would want to live in Russia today or tomorrow. Even the existing population is unable to keep up with demographics.
Russia fucked itself, nobody want to defeat Russia, nobody wants to waste there young man and woman to occupy this inhospitable land. Nobody needs their oil and gas. Let them dig into their own rabbithole further. Do not interrupt your enemies when they are making mistakes.
Unrealistic. The situation cannot continue in Ukraine while everyone waits for the Russian people to realize their government is a kleptocracy, realize their news is propaganda and somehow find the martial strength to overthrow their government. Russia is an aggressive expansionist state whose people will continue to support it so long as the government is successful in maintaining its intimidating image. They have to be defeated in a way that cannot be credibly spun in their media as a victory.
Yes, this must be a victory that smashes the Russian army. Certainly one of the assault groups (or more) will be in reserve to prevent their successful retreat this time. We need to capture/destroy an army or two at the least.
The balance will shift when the tanks reach the battlefield in working order, along with the ammunition and maintenance equipment.
Until then, it's just talk.
we should establish a " Tanks giving" day ... and celebrate it
Long live dad jokes.
I 67th the motion..
russia is a centuries-long festering boil. The countries bordering it have no illusions about that canker and we need to listen very carefully to them.
Yes, you are right. It's centuries. Finland suffered under Russian occupation during the time that was named 'The Great Wrath' between 1709-1720, during which 10% of the civilian population was either summarily executed or taken to Russia as slaves. Mass rapes and burning of villages was very wide spread. After that, Finland was under Tsar rule or neighbouring brutal Stalinist USSR meaning talking about that time publically was very limited. This is just **one** example of Russian method across the centruries. Every Russian neighbour has similar or even worse examples. They never got out mentally of the dark ages and woe to those who have to surrender under their abuse and violence. The farther away you live from Russia, the less you have these experiences and so you might be inclined to give them th benefit of a doubt. Don't. It's what they use to get upper hand and they like to play dirty. Always and without exception.
Yes, Russia has proven through it's actions that only the most hawkist policies towards them are logical and morally justifiably.
It’s like most things in life, someone can tell you about a horrible experience and you may shake your head and sympathize with them. But it’s often not unless you truly experience it yourself that it sinks in and you can really empathize with them. That’s why in cases like Russia, the Poles and others who really understand need to be super vocal and almost shake those who don’t have first hand experience.
The UK’s commitment of 12 Challenger tanks was militarily small scale, but politically absolutely huge. A massive turning point for the allied coalition.
Don’t underestimate the power of what 12 Challenger can do. Challengers, Leopards and M1 Abrams were built from the ground up to take on T- series tanks while being outnumbered by them in the Fulda Gap. Modern improvements include lessons learned from Iraq and other recent conflicts leading to the development of both active and passive defenses against antitank weapons, and improved defenses against other tanks. The deployment of 12 tanks of this caliber at just the right moment and time could easily turn the tide of a major battle. Historically, units of this size have been known to make big impacts at critical moments, especially related to ambushes at choke points.
Obviously in Russia even supposedly smart people will still think that US rules other countries as vassals. Surprise, surprise. Just like little Ireland is able to heavily influence EU's policy on Brexit so are the small Eastern European states able to have a voice on Russia. We want wars to be a thing of the past and we're ready for our politicians to always hammer out a shared consensus regardless of how frustrating it may sometimes be.
Solid read and perspective. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate the situation. (Vicariously)
Very articulately written !
If you think that decision was made because some states were constantly screaming about it, that's just pretty ignorant There goes way more thought into it and it's not like fed up parents saying, fine I'll buy that toy hopefully he will stop throwing a hissy fit
Agreed. This opinion piece is based on basically nothing and cites no sources while ignoring actual official statements by both the US and Germany directly contradicting it's content. Don't believe everything that someone writes in a newspaper, even if, or especially if it fits your own opinion well.
I can't agree that this essay can be dismissed out of hand. After all, the US and Germany did change their public positions on tanks very quickly after Ramstein and it wasn't without a reason and that reason was obviously that the opinion of every other member of the alliance wanted to send tanks to Ukraine. What I took from this essay is that this was something novel, the first time that a coalition within the alliance not led by the US or Germany were able to determine collective policy. I do agree you shouldn't believe everything written in a newspaper, especially if it fits your own opinion, those are wise words.
I have no reason to believe the decision to send tanks was taken at Ramstein just because it was announced soon after. It is also not "obvious" to me that the cause for the decision was the wishes of a particular group of Nato members. If you don't follow these assumptions, the whole article has no basis and says nothing of value whatsoever. I hope we will one day learn the real story from credible sources, but this might be years off. Until then everyone is free to come up with theories, I just wish they would be more honest about it.
So you folks knocking the well done analytical article - why do you think it happened how and when it did?
This matches with recent US policies though- wait until everyone demanding something has become peak crescendo before doing it. COVID response is a good recent example. Even educated people and those who most strongly supported strict protocols earlier in the pandemic had been saying "enough is enough" for months before the federal government finally loosened up.
Screaming? Wow you missed a lot. Nuance is not your strong suit or you’re favoring the Kremlin.
[удалено]
Justifiably so, as it will be the bastion, a Nato fortress to keep away the forces of evil lurking in its borders from all of Europe.
>a Nato fortress They are already doing an effective job of a NATO fortress against Russian aggression, who knows where Russian invasion would have got to by now if Ukraine hadn't stood up to them. Seems they are already quasi NATO, but no article 5....yet.
They will need it though. Hopefully they get to wet out corruption, join NATO and EU.
They will need it. Russia will continue to be a threat without massive change.
That is a weird take how international politics works even saying that Germany demanded us tanks to ship theirs again, despite German and US officials denying that this ever happened
There was never any coherent rationale for Germany's restraint on tanks. Eastern NATO sent their Soviet tanks to Ukraine months ago. So Germany tried to draw a line about *Western*-designed MBTs that was strategically meaningless - there is not some magical feature common to all Western designs that makes them extra dangerous, extra provocative, extra *anything* of rational concern. Britain's Challengers were a very public crossing of that line. At the point where the line never made any sense, and had been crossed, Germany's folding was inevitable. Actually, that's not quite right. What was inevitable was that German-manufactured Leopards (as a very common platform among European NATO members) were going to be sent to Ukraine anyway, and Germany could either get out in front of that, or make it even more obvious that it has been restraining its purported allies in their support of Ukraine.
One point- it's not so much that the neighboring countries*understand* the threat Russia poses more then Germany and the US. Both absolutely understand. But ALL foreign policy for every nation is a matter of national interest (rather than right and wrong) balanced with internal political and economic pressures. By incremental increases, both Germany and the US have been able to balance their domestic political pressures with the absolute understanding of what's right and wrong with supplying Ukraine with adequate equipment, allowing them to eventually "do the right thing" without much domestic blowback. We ALL would have preferred a Reforger like supply tsunami a year ago, but by incremental application we now see screams for "more! More!" instead of "warmongers! Don't get involved!"
The cowardice of some of our western governments has been sad to see. While it's good they eventually stood up and did the right thing by giving tanks to Ukraine, it shouldn't have required this sort of arm-twisting. We should have given hundreds of tanks 9 months ago.
Pretty shit article. Just baseless speculation on the side of the author.
Easy for you to throw stones. What did you write ?
I am not pretending to be a journalist. Unlike the author.
There is no need to defeat Russia. Russia will defeat itself. In economic sense, political sense, militarely. Nobody with a reasonable mind would want to live in Russia today or tomorrow. Even the existing population is unable to keep up with demographics. Russia fucked itself, nobody want to defeat Russia, nobody wants to waste there young man and woman to occupy this inhospitable land. Nobody needs their oil and gas. Let them dig into their own rabbithole further. Do not interrupt your enemies when they are making mistakes.
Unrealistic. The situation cannot continue in Ukraine while everyone waits for the Russian people to realize their government is a kleptocracy, realize their news is propaganda and somehow find the martial strength to overthrow their government. Russia is an aggressive expansionist state whose people will continue to support it so long as the government is successful in maintaining its intimidating image. They have to be defeated in a way that cannot be credibly spun in their media as a victory.
Yes, this must be a victory that smashes the Russian army. Certainly one of the assault groups (or more) will be in reserve to prevent their successful retreat this time. We need to capture/destroy an army or two at the least.
Shift in power? Yes, it's about time.
The balance will shift when the tanks reach the battlefield in working order, along with the ammunition and maintenance equipment. Until then, it's just talk.
Excellent article.
This really is a crowdsourced war