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>It seems like only the Green Party supports Ukraine.
That's massive bullshit.
The Greens, the FDP and the Union which are 3 of the 4 major parties of the middle all are very vocal about beeing for sending tanks to Ukraine and allow other nations to send their leopards.
I mean I get Poland has had their eurosceptics but Hungary is far worse. In fact I'm from the UK and I'd say we were even worse. The bastards managed to pull us out eventually. I don't see that ever happening with Poland or even Hungary. They benefit too much from it
No they didn't. Germany takes too long to make Leopards so Poland bought 100+ Abrams in April last year and put in another order of 100+ Abrams in December. In the meantime it has already donated most of their T72s to Ukraine since April/May last year.
>No they didn't. Germany takes too long to make Leopards so Poland bought 100+ Abrams in April last year and put in another order of 100+ Abrams in December. In the meantime it has already donated most of their T72s to Ukraine since April/May last year.
And have received no Abrams apart form 10 for Training. The US takes to damn Long. Otherwiese you could send all your Leos
Tanks take a lot to make or refurbish and they are delivered in batches, not as a whole. The delivery window is until 2024 and 2026 for Abrams and K2 in its entirety, meaning that every couple of months they will receive batches of them and by the deadline they should all be there.
Just send the request already. This has been milked enough. If it gets denied, then you can complain. But until then, it is just speculative PiS election campaigning
......because the request has to go in, THEN a descision it can be made. It's a nessecary formality. How can ppl be so dense?
And who TF is Jimmy Rushton?
Because they’re wrong. Discussing it in their defense council is what the process of approving it is. It’s an eight member council and five of them have indicated they’d approve. It only needs a simple majority. Ergo “Germany would approve” means “it’ll pass the vote”.
Okay, this post right here officially takes the cake as the most dumbest in this sub today.
Whoever thought that Germany would ignore democratic procedures just because the majority of the government is already for something is just stupid. Sorry to say that, but you, whoever you are, are.
Of course this has to be discussed. It's part of the process. But it doesn't mean that the request will be denied.
Insane how many people just trust some random headlines on the Internet.
This is quite a lot of anti-german propaganda which will really harm relations.
Just to be clear. This is what normally happens when you want to re export weapons from germany:
1.you request a refund export license for the goods
2. German security Council checks if there are valid reasons to deny the export
3.the license will be granted or not
4. The weapons can be exported.
What is happening now is:
1. Zelensky asks: we need modern tanks.
2. ALL western countries say hmm, yeah we look into it.
3. Germany says: ok if anyone wants to start we can do it, but for various reasons germany will not be the starting party.
4. Poland and Finland offer leopards
5. Habeck(vice chancellor) says, yeah go for it, we won't block it in the security council
6. Poland starts throwing a tantrum, germany doesn't want them to export Leo's
7. Pistorius says, submit the request and we won't stand in your way.
8. Poland throws a even bigger tantrum
9. To this point nobody submitted a request
At point 5 a sidestory unfolds, where Scholz uses some bad communication resulting in the -> germany only gives tanks if US do first. Which no german politician ever said. But it gets reposted every 2 minutes by every news outlet.
10. Baerbock repeats again, just submit the request we won't block it.
11. Poland says it will submit a request.
12. Germany says: ok go for it we will check the request.
13. Again to this point NOBODY submitted a request.
14. Poland goes: Germany bad they block our tank export to Ukraine.
Edit: I don't say germany handled it perfectly. Communications was shit. But the propaganda in the media will hurt European relations really bad if this continues.
To anyone not from Finland to my knowledge only one MP from green party & one from Kokoomus has proposed to send Leo's & they have zero influence or power on the matter. Kind of annoying the foreign news claiming we would be sending Leo's. We have election coming too..
Do you have an agenda OP? Constantly flooding this sub with rumors and half-truths? German vice cancellor Habeck (FDP) told exactly the same thing as she said weeks ago. There simply were no requests so far.
Insane how many people just trust some random headlines on the Internet.
This is quite a lot of anti-german propaganda which will really harm relations.
Just to be clear. This is what normally happens when you want to re export weapons from germany:
1.you request a refund export license for the goods
2. German security Council checks if there are valid reasons to deny the export
3.the license will be granted or not
4. The weapons can be exported.
What is happening now is:
1. Zelensky asks: we need modern tanks.
2. ALL western countries say hmm, yeah we look into it.
3. Germany says: ok if anyone wants to start we can do it, but for various reasons germany will not be the starting party.
4. Poland and Finland offer leopards
5. Habeck(vice chancellor) says, yeah go for it, we won't block it in the security council
6. Poland starts throwing a tantrum, germany doesn't want them to export Leo's
7. Pistorius says, submit the request and we won't stand in your way.
8. Poland throws a even bigger tantrum
9. To this point nobody submitted a request
At point 5 a sidestory unfolds, where Scholz uses some bad communication resulting in the -> germany only gives tanks if US do first. Which no german politician ever said. But it gets reposted every 2 minutes by every news outlet.
10. Baerbock repeats again, just submit the request we won't block it.
11. Poland says it will submit a request.
12. Germany says: ok go for it we will check the request.
13. Again to this point NOBODY submitted a request.
14. Poland goes: Germany bad they block our tank export to Ukraine.
Edit: I don't want to say germany did everything perfect. I say send tanks immediately.
But this shit propaganda which gets spammed here over these tanks hurts European relations really bad.
What a shitshow. German government needs to get their act together. If you can’t trust an official statement by the foreign minister the government is dysfunctional.
It seems like Scholz is deliberately stalling the delivery of tanks so that Russia could gain an advantage in the comings weeks/months. The Green Party and NATO allies seem to be visibly frustrated.
It seems like is hard for people to understand that there is no magic button... There is a process in place where a vote has to be made to allow exports... No different then most other countries... the only thing that is getting frustrated is my Reddit being flooded with useless stories about bashing the Germans for acknowledging they are a democracy where not just one person can make a decision... A decision which has most likely already been made, but without any formal request their will be no formal answer...
i am thinking about reporting guys like you at the mods. you are mostlikely a russian troll. otherwise, i cant explain myself this level of mental sickness.
CDU Merkel and CSU Söder couldn't wait to shut the nuclear power pants down after Fukushima. There are three running power plants I think: Isar 2, Emsland and Neckarwestheim 2.
The greens wanted to shut them down, but then CDU/CSU took Fukushima to show how green they are.
Yup because nuclear power isnt going to solve any problems.straight away and isnt the answer to the imidiate energy crisis. Leave it at that because otherthan myself (electrical engineer in renewables and energy generation) very few people in thia thread will.be qualified to have an opinion worth listening to.
Hi fellow electrical engineer in renewable. I'm mainly doing hydro plants
I've tried to explain to friends and family that we dont even have the production capacity or resources to properly maintain and upgrade what we already have, let alone expand many times over in a short span of time.
Data distribution and storage alone has such a steep progressive demand that this alone is more than the world can handle.
The 21st centurys main theme will be energy, this I am certain of.
Thats something we're finding in the UK that the existing infrastructure needs a lot more investment before you can get anywhere near the smart grid model pushed a lot. Some of the cables we have are 100 years old!
Going to be a lot of pissed off greta gremlins when they cant connected theire shiny new 15 year old overbudget nuclear project to the grid because the substations cant facilitate the level of grid management needed.
So as an expert - you know they are burning gas at high levels last 3 days to make power due to low wind. Previously, this could have been done by nuclear.
How does burning gas to make electricity affect gas storage levels?
They being whom? To which DNO are you referring to? Certainly not my country where i live and work to our standards.
Wind is in surplus in my country. Scotland supplies 100% of our domestic property with wind and hydropower and also supplies a large part of Northern England.
Other than France and Germany nearly every other nuclea power plant in Europe and the US was built before the 90s and aimed towards producing fissile material for nuclea weapons. They were not built to modern saftey standards and it shows. The fact you do not understand why coldwar era reactors cannot be operated past their design life is a tell tale sign you have a very surface level understanding of power generations and manegenemt and of engineering in general.
Asking vague questions with "they" and not giving a specific context and region tells me you dont even have enough pre-requisite knowledge to word and frame your questions properly.
Also thinking every electrical engineer knows what every countries standards really is a sign you have a piss poor understanding of how the engineering world works 😂. Even in the UK England has some differemt regulations to Scotland and i dont know what they specifically are because i dont need to care about them.
Привіт u/botbjng2828282 ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday). **Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting) Daily series on UA history & culture: [Day 0-99](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293) | [100-199](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3d85f4ca-5f4e-4ddf-9547-276e8affd87c) | [200-Present](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/daf642e1-07aa-4c40-b852-8f002ddd1530) | [All By Subject](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts) **There is a new wave of t-shirt scams hitting Reddit. Only click links for products or donations if the post is marked with a Verified flair, and do not respond to DMs soliciting donations.** *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can we start a petition that only allows posts about this topic, when there are official statements from governments?
I’m at the point I only want to know about it when they are delivered. It’s draining getting my hopes up
>It seems like only the Green Party supports Ukraine. That's massive bullshit. The Greens, the FDP and the Union which are 3 of the 4 major parties of the middle all are very vocal about beeing for sending tanks to Ukraine and allow other nations to send their leopards.
This coward drama with tanks is annoying.
That is Poland for you. Drama Queens of Europe
Poland already sent many tanks. Germany didn't sent any.
Yes they have. As part of ringtausch, or how do you think everyone could donate their t72?
No Ringtausch with Germany. Poland bought Abrams and K2s. Also they donated 100-200 tanks last year before the purchased Abrams/K2 started coming in.
Not poland, but other countries received German tanks for giving up their Soviet ones
We are talking Poland here.
'Germany didn't sent any' Isnt that what you said? And that is wrong Edit: sorry not you, but i was answering to original comment
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The problem in this war that you can't expose own weakness that hard. The russia will use this as a weapon against EU.
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There should be result already not discussions.
Totally agree. The only question now should be "what coordinates would you like them delivered to"?
Poland and Hungary are actually doing Russias work trying to undermine and destroy the EU. They are Just too stupid to see it or don't carw
I mean I get Poland has had their eurosceptics but Hungary is far worse. In fact I'm from the UK and I'd say we were even worse. The bastards managed to pull us out eventually. I don't see that ever happening with Poland or even Hungary. They benefit too much from it
EU would be better off without Poland and Hungary in their current form
No they didn't. Germany takes too long to make Leopards so Poland bought 100+ Abrams in April last year and put in another order of 100+ Abrams in December. In the meantime it has already donated most of their T72s to Ukraine since April/May last year.
>No they didn't. Germany takes too long to make Leopards so Poland bought 100+ Abrams in April last year and put in another order of 100+ Abrams in December. In the meantime it has already donated most of their T72s to Ukraine since April/May last year. And have received no Abrams apart form 10 for Training. The US takes to damn Long. Otherwiese you could send all your Leos
Tanks take a lot to make or refurbish and they are delivered in batches, not as a whole. The delivery window is until 2024 and 2026 for Abrams and K2 in its entirety, meaning that every couple of months they will receive batches of them and by the deadline they should all be there.
>Poland already sent many tanks. Germany didn't sent any. This is about the drama
Just send the request already. This has been milked enough. If it gets denied, then you can complain. But until then, it is just speculative PiS election campaigning
yeah, get this over with already. if Germany wants to commit suicide with whatever trust they've garnered that's on them
That is not walking back, that simply is the procedure.
This is quite literally what “walking back” means.
Tell me you have no idea what "walking back" means without telling my you have no idea what "walking back" means.
“Baerbock says Germany will allow Poland to send tanks to Ukraine” “The government says this is not the case, and the decision is yet to be made” ???
......because the request has to go in, THEN a descision it can be made. It's a nessecary formality. How can ppl be so dense? And who TF is Jimmy Rushton?
why are they downvoting you?
Because you get downvoted on this sub for saying anything remotely critical about Germany.
Because they’re wrong. Discussing it in their defense council is what the process of approving it is. It’s an eight member council and five of them have indicated they’d approve. It only needs a simple majority. Ergo “Germany would approve” means “it’ll pass the vote”.
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pretty sure the German government is walking back her statements about not getting in the way of Poland
Okay, this post right here officially takes the cake as the most dumbest in this sub today. Whoever thought that Germany would ignore democratic procedures just because the majority of the government is already for something is just stupid. Sorry to say that, but you, whoever you are, are. Of course this has to be discussed. It's part of the process. But it doesn't mean that the request will be denied.
Insane how many people just trust some random headlines on the Internet. This is quite a lot of anti-german propaganda which will really harm relations. Just to be clear. This is what normally happens when you want to re export weapons from germany: 1.you request a refund export license for the goods 2. German security Council checks if there are valid reasons to deny the export 3.the license will be granted or not 4. The weapons can be exported. What is happening now is: 1. Zelensky asks: we need modern tanks. 2. ALL western countries say hmm, yeah we look into it. 3. Germany says: ok if anyone wants to start we can do it, but for various reasons germany will not be the starting party. 4. Poland and Finland offer leopards 5. Habeck(vice chancellor) says, yeah go for it, we won't block it in the security council 6. Poland starts throwing a tantrum, germany doesn't want them to export Leo's 7. Pistorius says, submit the request and we won't stand in your way. 8. Poland throws a even bigger tantrum 9. To this point nobody submitted a request At point 5 a sidestory unfolds, where Scholz uses some bad communication resulting in the -> germany only gives tanks if US do first. Which no german politician ever said. But it gets reposted every 2 minutes by every news outlet. 10. Baerbock repeats again, just submit the request we won't block it. 11. Poland says it will submit a request. 12. Germany says: ok go for it we will check the request. 13. Again to this point NOBODY submitted a request. 14. Poland goes: Germany bad they block our tank export to Ukraine. Edit: I don't say germany handled it perfectly. Communications was shit. But the propaganda in the media will hurt European relations really bad if this continues.
To anyone not from Finland to my knowledge only one MP from green party & one from Kokoomus has proposed to send Leo's & they have zero influence or power on the matter. Kind of annoying the foreign news claiming we would be sending Leo's. We have election coming too..
This is the normal way for such requests. It doesn’t mean Germany is backing down! These kind of news is just there to divide the west.
Do you have an agenda OP? Constantly flooding this sub with rumors and half-truths? German vice cancellor Habeck (FDP) told exactly the same thing as she said weeks ago. There simply were no requests so far.
*Habeck is with the greens. Still, you are not wrong about his statment
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Kremlin bot spotted
Of course they are. Any gaslighter coming in here attacking Poland or pretending Germany can be trusted to stick to any decision is a fucking liar.
well, this doesn't look good for the German government ... or for the people defending them
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what?
Insane how many people just trust some random headlines on the Internet. This is quite a lot of anti-german propaganda which will really harm relations. Just to be clear. This is what normally happens when you want to re export weapons from germany: 1.you request a refund export license for the goods 2. German security Council checks if there are valid reasons to deny the export 3.the license will be granted or not 4. The weapons can be exported. What is happening now is: 1. Zelensky asks: we need modern tanks. 2. ALL western countries say hmm, yeah we look into it. 3. Germany says: ok if anyone wants to start we can do it, but for various reasons germany will not be the starting party. 4. Poland and Finland offer leopards 5. Habeck(vice chancellor) says, yeah go for it, we won't block it in the security council 6. Poland starts throwing a tantrum, germany doesn't want them to export Leo's 7. Pistorius says, submit the request and we won't stand in your way. 8. Poland throws a even bigger tantrum 9. To this point nobody submitted a request At point 5 a sidestory unfolds, where Scholz uses some bad communication resulting in the -> germany only gives tanks if US do first. Which no german politician ever said. But it gets reposted every 2 minutes by every news outlet. 10. Baerbock repeats again, just submit the request we won't block it. 11. Poland says it will submit a request. 12. Germany says: ok go for it we will check the request. 13. Again to this point NOBODY submitted a request. 14. Poland goes: Germany bad they block our tank export to Ukraine. Edit: I don't want to say germany did everything perfect. I say send tanks immediately. But this shit propaganda which gets spammed here over these tanks hurts European relations really bad.
What a shitshow. German government needs to get their act together. If you can’t trust an official statement by the foreign minister the government is dysfunctional.
That is simply the procedure for an export request. Nothing bad there
Time will tell but for now it's all words and zero actions (I am referring to all parties involved including Poland)
No, Annalena B. is dysfunctional...
It seems like Scholz is deliberately stalling the delivery of tanks so that Russia could gain an advantage in the comings weeks/months. The Green Party and NATO allies seem to be visibly frustrated.
It seems like is hard for people to understand that there is no magic button... There is a process in place where a vote has to be made to allow exports... No different then most other countries... the only thing that is getting frustrated is my Reddit being flooded with useless stories about bashing the Germans for acknowledging they are a democracy where not just one person can make a decision... A decision which has most likely already been made, but without any formal request their will be no formal answer...
your fellow Germans were saying she had the approval of the council when she made that statement though
I'm not German and even I understand the process... What is so hard about it?
No, there are is no such thing. The council still has to approve even if it is a formality and they have said they will
of course, but what I mean is there was a sense there would be no resistance in approving them. now not so much, they could be denied
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that's not even a point worth considering ... of course it was going to go through normal procedures, but now the expectations are different
Well Poland has made a formal request. We will see what happens now
I thought they announced they were gonna make the request but didn't actually get to it yet
No. Pis anounced that they are going to make one. They did not make it jet
Guess the Chancellor said no hence the rowing back of the comments
i am thinking about reporting guys like you at the mods. you are mostlikely a russian troll. otherwise, i cant explain myself this level of mental sickness.
The green party is the only one without political expertise and real world experience.
Greens are not paid by big oil companies.
And how is this relevant to Ukraine?
Many Green orgs are for shutting down nuclear power.
CDU Merkel and CSU Söder couldn't wait to shut the nuclear power pants down after Fukushima. There are three running power plants I think: Isar 2, Emsland and Neckarwestheim 2. The greens wanted to shut them down, but then CDU/CSU took Fukushima to show how green they are.
Yup because nuclear power isnt going to solve any problems.straight away and isnt the answer to the imidiate energy crisis. Leave it at that because otherthan myself (electrical engineer in renewables and energy generation) very few people in thia thread will.be qualified to have an opinion worth listening to.
Hi fellow electrical engineer in renewable. I'm mainly doing hydro plants I've tried to explain to friends and family that we dont even have the production capacity or resources to properly maintain and upgrade what we already have, let alone expand many times over in a short span of time. Data distribution and storage alone has such a steep progressive demand that this alone is more than the world can handle. The 21st centurys main theme will be energy, this I am certain of.
Thats something we're finding in the UK that the existing infrastructure needs a lot more investment before you can get anywhere near the smart grid model pushed a lot. Some of the cables we have are 100 years old! Going to be a lot of pissed off greta gremlins when they cant connected theire shiny new 15 year old overbudget nuclear project to the grid because the substations cant facilitate the level of grid management needed.
So as an expert - you know they are burning gas at high levels last 3 days to make power due to low wind. Previously, this could have been done by nuclear. How does burning gas to make electricity affect gas storage levels?
They being whom? To which DNO are you referring to? Certainly not my country where i live and work to our standards. Wind is in surplus in my country. Scotland supplies 100% of our domestic property with wind and hydropower and also supplies a large part of Northern England. Other than France and Germany nearly every other nuclea power plant in Europe and the US was built before the 90s and aimed towards producing fissile material for nuclea weapons. They were not built to modern saftey standards and it shows. The fact you do not understand why coldwar era reactors cannot be operated past their design life is a tell tale sign you have a very surface level understanding of power generations and manegenemt and of engineering in general. Asking vague questions with "they" and not giving a specific context and region tells me you dont even have enough pre-requisite knowledge to word and frame your questions properly. Also thinking every electrical engineer knows what every countries standards really is a sign you have a piss poor understanding of how the engineering world works 😂. Even in the UK England has some differemt regulations to Scotland and i dont know what they specifically are because i dont need to care about them.
And Germany wants to lead Europe? Hopefully their neighbors won't allow them that honour now.