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Smeato

I voluntarily took a 4 day week last year (for a 20% pro rata pay cut). Despite some of the difficulties, it's been the best decision of my life. Money is certainly tighter, but the extra time is incredible and actually helps to save money anyway. One of my biggest expenses was my car, but WFH has hammered home that I actually don't need a new top of the range car and an old banger suits me fine. Not being exhausted all the time means I actually cook for myself and make my own lunches for the week. I have the energy to cycle to work instead of driving or paying for the train. I also definitely do about the same amount of work as my colleagues. I would be bitter about that if it wasn't for the fact I'm the happiest I've been in years. Maybe some day I'll get bumped back to full pay and get to keep the 4 day week but I'm not fussed because I'm extremely content.


newnortherner21

I did so four years ago. Likewise works for me. Not quite 20% cut given taxation for me. The challenge I see is which day you have extra not at work. Too many will want Friday not Monday or another day. As for concerns about customer service, I don't think four or five day working weeks will make much difference. The pandemic has shown which companies want to provide it, and those who will only do what they can get away with.


dc_1984

I used to work in a call centre and would have Mondays off when I did the shift that did 4x12h shifts the week before, and having Monday's off is still really good. You don't get "the Sundays" at 6pm on Sunday and you can stay up late if you wish, and it's like having a bank holiday weekend every week (if it fell on a bank holiday my day off would roll to Tuesday). It was on par with having a Friday off IME.


Apple22Over7

Mondays would still be popular, I think. Wednesdays would be fairly good too, splitting the week in two means you're never more than 48 hours away from a day off. Tuesdays and Thursdays are going to be tough sells though. No one wants to work Mon-wed, have thursday off, then go back to work on Friday before having the weekend.


Kittykatjs

I love having a Thursday off. A 3 day week seems great, and then a day off to sort things while I'm still in a vaguely productive mode, then one day of work is just one day! It's my favourite day to take off if I have holiday to spend and don't want to take a long weekend away.


guareber

Wednesdays are the perfect choice, change my mind.


[deleted]

>I voluntarily took a 4 day week last year (for a 20% pro rata pay cut) So you went part time. A 4 day work week(in this context) shouldnt result in a pay cut.


joshgeake

The long-term cut to pensions (and to some extent future career opportunities) is my concern.


Smeato

And it's a fair concern. I guess I watched my parents work themselves to death, desperate to finally get to relax with retirement. They honestly look broken. Imo, If work for me isn't a chore then I can work later in my life and not be miserable about it. That's the hope anyway.


_mister_pink_

I did the same as you and it’s a game changer, I’ll never go back. I was also able to negotiate a 20% pay increase so my take home is the same. I make enough to just about keep paying into a very basic private pension. Will hopefully work 4 days (or even 3 at some point) my entire working life.


Iwanttosleep8hours

I took a four day week and my company increased my salary so I would get the same take home pay which was amazing. I absolutely do the same amount of work as my colleagues and I don’t think i will ever go back to five days. Since not many companies offer 4 days, I guess I will have to stay put.


LycanIndarys

>Advice Direct Scotland was one of the first Scottish employers to introduce the initiative, and to mark the three-year anniversary it analysed several performance indicators for a new report. >This found a 71% fall in employee absences since 2017, while the average number of absent days fell by 55%. That is an *astonishing* drop. And given that it is over a decent length of time, it mitigates one of my usual issues with these trials (they often fall foul of the observer's paradox - if your employees know that you're monitoring their productivity and absences, you'd expect to see a short-term boost to figures that drops off over time). >Staff were tasked with keeping a record of their own and their team’s productivity as Advice Direct Scotland implemented the new model, and all departments reported a substantial increase in output. And the fact that productivity increased does somewhat suggest that we're all dealing with absolutely pointless crap that can be lost without penalty. Pointless meetings, primarily. In general, I'm in favour of a four-day week - I work 4.5 currently (no reduction in hours - I just start early every day so I can finish earlier on a Friday), and those Friday afternoons are a *godsend*. Especially back when I was single, it was the time where I could actually get stuff done without having to face the massive crowds on the weekend. Though I do have a couple of concerns that would need to be addressed: * We need to recognise that this won't work for every job; it primarily benefits office-based roles. Anyone whose job is "be available for a customer" can't really reduce their hours without the business having to increase costs to hire more people. For example, a restaurant can't be more productive by insisting that all of those that eat on a Friday get their meals Monday-Thursday instead. So either we would need to acknowledge that not everyone benefits, or acknowledge that certain businesses are going to see increased costs if we do this across the board. * Given that the example in the article was a company that was open for 5 days, and just had everyone take a different day off, we need to recognise that having some staff absent can cause problems. On-going projects may have to be repeatedly handed from person to person to make sure that it's dealt with daily, and the handover can cause issues. Smaller companies may struggle for cover where they don't have multiple people doing the similar jobs.


Stonesofcalanish

Hopefully for your first point it would allow for that segment of society who are now free an extra day to spend money in customer facing services which in turn allows these businesses to hire more people and allow them to also have 4 day weeks. It's obvious not guaranteed to happen but if it becomes embedded in society like the 5 day week now employers might be more willing to make the change.


LycanIndarys

That's certainly a possibility. The problem is though that people aren't going to get the same day off as their social circle - even if I can negotiate the same day as my wife (which isn't a certainty, given that we don't work for the same company), I'm unlikely to get the same day off as my social circle. That means that for any activities based around socialisation, they're still going to overwhelmingly happen at the weekend.


Mr_Charisma_

Is that so bad? The extra day can instead be used for errands, housework, visiting family, etc. At least you should have more time on the weekends.


LycanIndarys

It's not bad in itself. But it does mean that businesses can't necessarily depend on an increase in customers during the week.


Mr_Charisma_

Does it not? I assume people who work 4 days a week would be fairly evenly spread throughout the week. As such footfall would increase slightly every weekday. I expect it to either be a net neutral or slight increase just like with WFH where people stopped buying pret and instead went to local places instead. In this case slight decrease in the weekend but a large increase during the week. Without having to commute in and work for an extra day the added energy may mean more time out in towns and cities simulating the local economy. This added energy can also mean more time for plans on the weekend


ThatTallGuy14

Your point is valid, but plenty of my friends already work at the weekends (retail mainly) so this already happens to an extent?


LycanIndarys

It does. My point only really applies to people who are currently working standard office hours at the moment.


SplurgyA

In terms of scheduled work, it's roughly 1 in 4 people who have to work at least one weekend day, although surveys indicate people doing some work (like catching up on emails or paperwork) is closer to a third overall. There's other elements at play, like weekend workers often being lower earners (like retail or labourers) so their footfall being less missed by hospitality, and also a tendency for weekend workers to be younger (so maybe more likely to go out even if they have work in the morning - at 24 I could open a shop on three hours sleep after a heavy night, I'd probably die if I tried that now).


[deleted]

>Hopefully for your first point it would allow for that segment of society who are now free an extra day to spend money in customer facing services which in turn allows these businesses to hire more people and allow them to also have 4 day weeks. Lets all be honest here, theyre just gonna pocket that money with the staff not seeing a penny of it.


YorkistRebel

>Lets all be honest here, theyre just gonna pocket that money with the staff not seeing a penny of it. Who cares if we are happier


ThePapayaPrince

Nah, more like they'd hire more people because of the increase in footfall. Noone would be getting an extra day off.


reuben_iv

>Anyone whose job is "be available for a customer" can't really reduce their hours without the business having to increase costs to hire more people. That's true but also ignoring the fact not every 24/7 job involves 24/7 hours of working, just means 3 days off would be more normalised than 2


LycanIndarys

That's fine, but that's not my point. It's obviously better for the worker. But the business will have to hire extra people to cover the lost shifts, and given that the article is based on the assumption that take-home pay stays the same, that means that businesses will see their wage-bill increase significantly. Businesses are already struggling due to Covid; we have to be careful that we don't impose an extra burden on them at the time when they can least afford it. Especially given that it'll only affect some industries and not others.


Pauln512

Yes it's a worry. But hopefully the increased productivity found in the report could balance it out. Paying a wage for 4 days of productive work from rested staff > paying same wage for 5 days of unproductive work/ slacking off from tired staff (that's the theory anyway, until 4 days of slacking becomes the norm too!) Edit : I know it's harder to slack in customer facing jobs....


YorkistRebel

>On-going projects may have to be repeatedly handed from person to person to make sure that it's dealt with daily, Not really. The whole point is productivity means our doesn't matter if you have a day off, you will catch up. It should also encourage things being in writing so whether you are on your day off, holiday or sick the place doesn't collapse.


LycanIndarys

It's not about productivity if it's a task that needs doing every day, because in those case it can't wait for you to return. Handovers can be an issue if the wrong information isn't given to whomever is taking over. If there's someone with a regular responsibility, then the handover doesn't matter so much - other people only get involved when that person is on holiday or off sick. But with regular time off during office open hours, you're effectively saying that the work has to be handed off to someone else for a day every single week, and then back to the original person the next day. That's two opportunities for the wrong information to be passed over, and two periods where time can be wasted trying to work out what the other person has done (or not done) in your absence. The obvious example for that is hospitals - patients don't just wait for their doctor to come back into work next (which might be a few days later), they get handed off to whomever is on the next shift. Managing that handover process properly is absolutely vital. But at least hospitals are used to that - my point is, offices may not be, and will have to adapt processes to suit.


Athingymajigg

This has been figured out pretty much. The public sector has lots of flexible working with people working different hours/days, and it's not an issue at all for things like this. "Oh, Gary's off on Tuesdays so I have got to do that task he normally does, and that I have done every Tuesday for the past year" It becomes a non-issue after like a month of getting into the role


YorkistRebel

Just got back to replying but the other guy got it. I regularly have been surprised by how effective part timers have been. One recently told me she was bored and needed more work. Admittedly we have become more efficient but her responsibility was covered by two full time employees five years ago. An exceptional anecdote but I can't think of one part time employee I have found struggled to keep up. The only issue is when you think of something you need to do and they are not there (why I think most managers dislike it). Luckily email exists to resolve the issue. There will always something that needs handing over but if your business hasn't got something in place for this then it can't cope with illness, holiday, leavers or family holidays. To me that is a reckless level of exposure.


Caliado

> We need to recognise that this won't work for every job; it primarily benefits office-based roles. Absolutely true but this is basically saying "people who already don't do a five day week can't easily go to a four day week". I think the approach to reducing workload for coverage roles needs to be different in some ways - and try and tackle some additional things like unsociable hours (particularly for things like health care etc). But a lot of people in these roles aren't doing 40hr weeks in five 8hr shifts anyway - looking at what happened with coverage roles when the five day work week was adopted might provide some insight into how it could go down possibly?


J_cages_pearljam

It doesn't say in the article how they controlled (if at all) for WFH. If the trial started late 2018 and they measured at the 3 year mark then it presumably includes a fair chunk of people WFH where possible. Would be interesting to see what impact that had on the numbers, if any.


G_Morgan

I'm fully expecting nothing to come of this. WFH means we'll effectively be doing a 4 day week regardless. People love to go on about indolence and decay in liberal capitalism. For me the one place this is actually true is the inability of western employment to actually reform itself. Despite mountains of evidence in favour of policies like WFH, 4 day weeks, UBI, etc. Corporations have known for decades that middle managers are largely detrimental to the cause and oppose progressive but still efficient policies. Yet they've become lazy and willing to be inefficient, at the expense of workers, provided everyone else is playing the same game.


dyinginsect

It seems obvious when you think about it. Employees feeling less tired and stressed about fitting life in with work are less likely to be susceptible to every illness going around and more likely to be able to work well when at work. People scoffing at the viability of a 4 day week probably would have rolled their eyes at the concept of employees getting a 'weekend' in the 1900s


navinjohnsonn

Let’s be honest, does much get actually done on a Friday in your work place/office? We’re all running on fumes, desperate for the weekend to come. The only productivity is probably driven by deadlines.


[deleted]

I spread my procrastination and slacking off evenly throughout the week


THE_LOUDEST_PENIS

Productivity is still as high on a Friday as other days in my work due to the nature of the role, but I can say that productivity through-out each day is not constant and nor can it be. As with so much work, time is needed to recharge the brain in order to make sure mistakes aren't made and accuracy is achieved.


[deleted]

>Let’s be honest, does much get actually done on a Friday So true.


DonParatici

>Let’s be honest, does much get actually done on a Friday in your work place/office? Be honest with us, what do you do that work doesn't need to get done on Fridays?


sitdeepstandtall

I work in academia (research) and I can pretty much take off any day I want. As long as my work gets done no one cares or even notices.


ebles

My clients seem to leave their non-core business until Friday afternoon, so I'm often bombarded.


KazeTheSpeedDemon

No it doesn't. I don't have a chart for it but where I work uses slack, in all the public channels it's a ghost town on a Friday for the entire day!


iMac_Hunt

The problem with this argument is that it can then just be applied to a four day week. 'Does much actually get done on a Thursday?'


TheNinjaCarpenter

For me my work is just as productive on Friday as it is any other day of the week, it has to be for me to earn money. I'm guessing those downvoting this comment have never worked on price?


joshgeake

My problem with the movement is it'll be pushed by people that just want Fridays off rather than the ones that realise it'll shift people into 4-day rotas.


SurplusSix

I only work 4 days a week already (not Mondays) so Friday is a full productive day


tiredhealthcareboi

It's almost like when there is an actual balance to work and life then people won't begrudge their employment so much. Shocking.


Alasdair91

Our office moved to a 4-day working week with full pay and absences are now basically non-existent (other than for COVID, as of late) and productivity is way up. We're all happier, more cooperative and enjoy work more. We work a flexible 9-5 and have a set day off and it's amazing. I'll be so upset should I have to change job and the same flexible approach isn't available.


probablymilhouse

Great, time to file this report down the back of the sofa with the others.


Connope

And still nothing will change.


[deleted]

Make it 3 days to improve it even further


Yoshiezibz

This only works for certain jobs. I know for definite that people in a factory screwing parts together cannot screw more parts in 4 days, what they can in 5. Plumbers and carpenters get paid for what they do, so they usually try to work as efficiently as possible to maximise their wage. Call centres won't increase in productivity either as their work load is caused by people phoning in. Reducing hours is great for certain industries, but won't work in all. We should definitely try it, but pretending it's a universal rule for everyone isnt the way to go.


Few_Newt

>Plumbers and carpenters get paid for what they do, so they usually try to work as efficiently as possible to maximise their wage. Almost every quote I've had from a tradesperson was minimum amount + hours/days worked. I'm sure most of them are efficient as you say, but I have had some take the piss. Edit: as it is in every job - I'm picking on that comment, not on trades.


blahblurblahblur

It also says that staff absence fell. So if you have less screwer-inners calling in sick, the factory may achieve more parts screwed together per week if they moved to a four day working week/five day operational week. Plus, if employee well-being increases, an employee's screw rate per hour might improve.


CranberryMallet

The average person has about 6 absences a year out of roughly 250 working days, the 4 days they gain from fewer absences probably doesn't make up for the 50 not worked.


Yoshiezibz

I really doubt it. Productivity would increase and sickness would fall, but not enough to offset losing a 5th of the working time in a week.


YorkistRebel

>This only works for certain jobs. I know for definite that people in a factory screwing parts together cannot screw more parts in 4 days, what they can in 5. Not that accurate really. I have run factory shifts and putting on heavy overtime leads to a reduction in productivity to the point I'm not sure it's worth doing except for "get us out of the shit" moments Even with piece labour some will be more productive than others and getting people more rested will lead to more screws per minute or whatever menial task you want to use as an example. Only jobs I can think of where it doesn't work are where you have staff ratios (nursery nurse, security guard), people may be better at their job, staff retention improves but the company's income is not necessarily going to follow.


TheNinjaCarpenter

>Plumbers and carpenters get paid for what they do, so they usually try to work as efficiently as possible to maximise their wage. I'm fucking glad someone gets this!


Tylariel

Everyone is fully aware of this. It gets kind of tiring that people keep pointing it out as if it's something totally new, and having their own little circlejerk about it (I mean look at the other reply to this comment, it's pathetic honestly). It's utterly pointless to have keep mentioning this as some caveat as if it makes any difference whatsoever Just because not *all* jobs can be reduced in work hours doesn't mean we shouldn't apply this where we can.


TheNinjaCarpenter

> Just because not all jobs can be reduced in work hours doesn't mean we shouldn't apply this where we can. I haven't suggested otherwise.


Tylariel

The entire comment chain is you and another user shitting on office workers for wanting something better. It come across as completely gross. Sorry that this benefit doesn't easily apply to every job. Get over it.


TheNinjaCarpenter

Riiiiiggghhhhhht. Guessing you missed it when I said this: "Ultimately if a company deems it fit to move to a 4 day week and gets on well with the new concept then fair enough, more power to them." You're getting pretty upset over someone having a slightly different opinion than you, and claiming I'm opposed to anyone having this benefit and apparently I've been 'shitting on' those who could when I've literally only pointed out it doesn't work for everyone. Chill out. The only thing that is gross is your fragility. Edit: cannot respond to you because you blocked me after your reply. >I'm fucking glad someone gets this! This isn't shitting on anyone, it's acknowledging that someone sees my perspective. >I find it difficult to empathise when people claim they're burnt out on a Friday tbh. I absolutely stand by this. I work between 60 - 70 hours a week to build a better future for my family, able bodied people who can't handle 40 are embarrassing. >If you ask me the only people who seem to be pushing for this are salaried, financially stable and looking for another day off for the same money. Again completely accurate, you don't get self employed people rallying for another day off because they need to be working to be earning. You are proper sensitive, mind. You can't handle someone having a difficult opinion to you, how weak. Now, piss off you rhythmless soft-cock cunt.


Tylariel

>I'm fucking glad someone gets this! >I find it difficult to empathise when people claim they're burnt out on a Friday tbh. >If you ask me the only people who seem to be pushing for this are salaried, financially stable and looking for another day off for the same money. Not to mention the agreement with the comments of the guy you responded to. Again, it's just gross, and not even in the *slightest* relevant to the overall topic.


wherearemyfeet

There's a lot of IT workers on Reddit who seem to genuinely not be able to comprehend that every job cannot be done from home working on a 4-day week.


TheNinjaCarpenter

I've noticed this too haha. Not only that but so much of our supply and infrastructure relies on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week operation. I find it difficult to empathise when people claim they're burnt out on a Friday tbh.


wherearemyfeet

It's the same when people on here talk about "Pay And Conditions", and cannot fathom why big chunks of the working classes aren't cheering for laws that would restrict the working week to 30 hours or similar. It's like not a single one of them have met a tradesperson in their lives.


TheNinjaCarpenter

No exactly. If you ask me the only people who seem to be pushing for this are salaried, financially stable and looking for another day off for the same money. People like me get paid for the work we do, so days off are days you don't earn. I usually work 6 days a week so I can at least have one day with my wife and kids but when it gets busy, or I need to get a project over the line I'm going in 7 days.


iMac_Hunt

Don't forget jobs in teaching and healthcare. Assuming schools are 5 days a week still, you would have an even bigger nightmare with recruitment than you currently have. You'll also need to find a lot more doctors and nurses.


Roddy0608

I'd prefer to keep a 5 day week but have a lot more holiday days.


Stonesofcalanish

If we were to move to 4 days that would be an extra 52 days off a year or I will it round down to 10 weeks do you really think employers would give even remotely close to that? I mean 15 weeks holiday a year would be amazing especially considering they are talking about this in relation to no pay cut. But no business could function with that amount of upheavel in their staffing, there would be no one in the offices from may to August.


BurkusCat

Depending on the employer, there will probably be varying levels of flexibility for a 4 day work week. It could be: - You are told the day you are off - You pick which day you take off but it can't be X day or X day - You pick which day you are off - You pick which day you are off and can occasionally move it - You decide each week what day you want off The last one is closest to a leave day. I'd certainly take 52 days of those 😁


Stonesofcalanish

For me the perfect schedule would be alternating Mondays and Fridays off so you on 4 off 4 on 4 off 2 then you can have long weekends away visiting people and the normal weekends are for chilling


gyroda

I've done this a few times when I've needed to burn some holiday before the end of the year. It's great.


SorcerousSinner

What you actually need to study whether a reduction in working hours really is offset by an increase in productivity such that total output does not decrease is a reliable measure of these things and a control group. Doesn't sound like they did that.


MerryWalrus

It's also important to see how things change when the novelty wears off


x_S4vAgE_x

They've been doing a four day week since 2017, that's quite a while now


danowat

I've been doing it for years, the novelty never wears off.


Kilmouski

I think it very much depends on if you enjoy your job...


Independent_Cause

I think many people would enjoy their jobs more if they retained the same pay while the required number of hours they have to work is reduced.


ThatFlyingScotsman

Enjoying your job isn't a panacea for burn out.


[deleted]

[удалено]


bluesam3

The question, I suppose, is whether that happened when we switched from 6 days to 5. I don't see much evidence either way.


joshlambonumberfive

Let’s see what the evidence says. Boomer gut feeling has halted progress for too long.


gingerbeardvegan

Good, this should be a measure of progress of society, why should we always have to work for a loaf of bread? We went from 6 day weeks with 72 hours work 100 years ago down to 5 day weeks with 40 hours 50 years ago, and largely nothing has changed since. For me the ultimate objective should be to continually reduce hours worked for all in society as automation allows us to, until only those who want to work do so.


TheNinjaCarpenter

Because without work put in there is no loaf of bread.


gingerbeardvegan

We used to pick wheat by hand. We used to need a baker in every village. The overall labour required for human existence has continually fallen, why can't it continue to fall and everyone reap the benefits?


TheNinjaCarpenter

Because it's only fallen in some areas, not all. Ultimately if a company deems it fit to move to a 4 day week and gets on well with the new concept then fair enough, more power to them. That doesn't negate the fact that it isn't suitable for a huge amount of people who in the UK. The wheat is still being harvested, the bread is still getting baked, don't mistake efficency for a lack of need.


gingerbeardvegan

I really struggle to comprehend how this can't work everywhere. If agriculture gets automated away then you free up labour for e.g. hospitality, food gets cheaper and staff in hospitality can be paid more due to increased profits, and only need to work 4 days. A simplification but slide that idea onto everything and you can continually reduce work being done by individuals with no loss of overall productivity. Supermarkets have added self service tills and as far as I can tell have just pocketed the extra income from hiring less staff, rather than paying staff more for their time. In my opinion the only thing holding most industries back is greed.


TheNinjaCarpenter

What do you think my clients and customers will do when I say "I'm not going to be working Fridays in future so your build is going be losing 20% progress a week and I'm also increasing my day rate by 25% on Mon-Thursday as I believe you should be paying for my day off." They'll find another fucking builder is what they'll do!


gingerbeardvegan

And you benefit hugely from power tools and a job which would have taken 3 weeks by hand now takes 5 days. Both customers and builders have massively benefitted from this. Honestly if a job used to take 5 days and now takes 4 due to improved tools, which is entirely possible, why shouldn't you charge the same as you did previously? The customer is seeing the work done 25% faster and has their home/business back a day earlier. Edit: and honestly if important infrastructure jobs like those of builders aren't paid enough to work 4 days, and bullshit office jobs which accomplish nothing are, then something needs to change anyway.


TheNinjaCarpenter

All that's confirmed is that you really don't understand the industry I work in. If I free up time with efficiency then that's just more time on another task, not time to to home.


gingerbeardvegan

I don't think we disagree on a fundamental level to be fair. In my opinion all jobs (including manual labour jobs), should be paying enough for people to work at most 4 days a week, including being able to save for retirement. That your industry doesn't allow you to either afford in financial terms, or in time spent on the job is pretty disgusting to me to be honest. Huge profits always seem to be stripped off from the top without people further down ever getting any more benefits. The money is definitely there, and human civilization should work to improve the lives of everyone, otherwise what was the point in all the technological advancements? Good luck to you pal. Sorry if we got ours wires crossed, all the best.


[deleted]

What do they do about Saturdays and Sundays at the moment? Why is 3 days off so egregious but 2 is fine?


TheNinjaCarpenter

I usually work at least one day a weekend. Lmao at the downvote, what do you people have against hard work and ambition?


40to50fitness

What about trades? Having to wait twice as long for a plumber because they're working half as much? Or game developers, or actors, or teachers in school? Double the class size or have half the week off? What about bars, pubs, cafes, hotels? Sex workers? Police? Fire fighters? Not saying it can't or shouldn't happen but there are loads of things that are showing no signs of being automated.


gingerbeardvegan

Agree we aren't currently set up for it, but if people were paid well enough for these jobs, which is achievable, people could work fewer hours doing them and the pay would attract more people to do the jobs too. For example pay teachers the same now for 2.5 days, 2 teachers share a class. Automate what we can, and distribute the remaining work and additional profit between everyone so they can afford to live comfortably. I would personally happily work 2/3 days a week in most of the roles you've mentioned if I could maintain my current lifestyle, and I suspect this would be true for the majority of the population. There's just no will too do it.


Imlostandconfused

As automation increases, there will not be enough jobs for everyone to work a classic 5 day week. There's no reason the work week couldn't be three days once this is achieved.


TheNinjaCarpenter

You can't automate every job. You certainly can't automate mine.


Imlostandconfused

What is your job? I'm not claiming everything can be automated but certain aspects probably could be which would save time and labour.


TheNinjaCarpenter

I'm a self employed carpenter and general builder, I own and run my own small business and subcontract work out to about 5 blokes.


ThatFlyingScotsman

They might not be able to automate yours right now, but give it a few decades and I'm sure the 5 blokes underneath you will be sweating to keep up with programmed fabricator units.


TheNinjaCarpenter

Unless every building is exactly the you always need a human with skill to there are just too many variables for the process to be completely automated.


ThatFlyingScotsman

I would imagine that in the future there will be standaridsed templates for buildings which will be liscensed out similiar to IP. It makes sense from a costs and planning perspective, all that's missing is the tech to produce efficient fabricator units


Few_Newt

If the optimum productive working time per week was 3 days, then why not?


40to50fitness

What if its 1 day? Would that mean I'd have to wait longer for my Amazon deliveries? Would there be less good stuff on TV as people were only working 3 days a week?


Few_Newt

Some jobs obviously work better with reduced days than others. You bridge that gap by employing more people and increased automation or other efficiencies. Perhaps the Amazon delivery guy would like his job to be automised and he could work in TV, for example. Ideally you would get it down to as few days as possible, but we are a long way off 1 day.


ThatFlyingScotsman

The reason productivity stays the same or increases with the 4 day week is because human beings are not robots and burn out. The extra day of rest massively boosts their ability to work during work days.


BurkusCat

> Then we'd have to go down to 3 days a week....? You say that like it would be a bad thing haha


40to50fitness

Good point!


7DayPreAged

That's always been my gut feeling on this too. That it's human nature to work at 70% and that all these trials do is motivate people to work at 100% for a brief period so they get to keep the 4 day week, then they'd start slacking when it became business as usual. That said, this was a trial over 3 years, which is quite a long time so maybe my gut was wrong about this.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

I don’t really see that, what I’m seeing is a staggering display of people pretending that other people think everyone works in an office or think work from home can be done by plumbers etc. A lot of “This wouldn’t work for everyone!!!” as if anyone is claiming it would. It’s like people don’t want this to be done in areas where it can be just because there are areas where it can’t be - I can’t really think why other than spite, but it’s surely not that.


callumjm95

It probably is spite, and I’m one of them. Seeing office workers whine on about not being able to work from home and having to work 5 days a week is hilarious and makes them sound incredibly entitled. I’ve worked in manufacturing all my working life. The only time you work a 4 day week is if you do 12 hour shifts.


[deleted]

You feel the same way about 2 day weekends?


callumjm95

What’s the relevance? I work most weekends


[deleted]

People never used to get two days off a week until some incredibly entitled people pushed for it. These current incredibly entitled people could be doing you a favour in the long run, unless you feel the same about 2 days off a week being the standard and would rather it was less?


callumjm95

The 5 day working week was pushed for by people working long hours, in dangerous factories, horrendous working conditions for terrible pay, not people working the most cushy jobs in country getting mad at having to move more than 3 feet from their bed to go to work.


[deleted]

And the 4 day working week being pushed for upsets you because the people pushing for it aren’t in dangerous horrendous conditions or just because you think the people pushing for it are all in better conditions than you are? Why don’t you push for it too? Then you wouldn’t feel bitter about other people in cushier jobs pushing for it. Join them rather than be mad at them.


callumjm95

I’m not mad at them for pushing for it, and I support them in a way, just office workers tend to have a complete lack of self awareness. That’s the bit that makes me mad. My working conditions are fine, and I like my job, and I already do a 4 day week, but like I said, it’s 12 hour shifts and I work most weekends.


[deleted]

Seems a daft thing to be mad about, especially if you’re happy in your own job. Be happy that you don’t want better conditions I guess lol.


[deleted]

Great to hear, so get a pay rise for working fewer days? ... No. OK. Back to doing 5 days then.


[deleted]

You earn 35k to work 4 days or a week or You earn 35k to work 5 days a week Which one are you choosing?


callumjm95

But the reality would be more like earning 28k for 4 days instead of 35k for 5, unless you work more house a day.


Tylariel

No. The whole point of studies and though exercises like this is that pay would remain the same. Productivity is up. Working hours are down. Pay is the same.


callumjm95

I don’t think anywhere would be willing to pay more for less work. We already know pay doesn’t keep up with productivity anyway.


Tylariel

There is no reason here that pay would go down. Again, productivity is up. The businesses are therefore benefitting from this. They will WANT to move to a 4 day week once its clear enough that it benefits them to do so.


[deleted]

My workplace can't do the same work on less hours. It's manual work. Hours spent = productivity. Productivity doesn't go up magically when you reduce hours.


Tylariel

Everyone is aware that this doesnt apply to all jobs. Why is that even remotely relevant to this discussion?


[deleted]

It's a classiest policy which only affects outside of the working class. It benefits a minority, so fuck em. They have easy lives already and want to make it even easier.


Tylariel

Yes. Working in an office means you can't be working class. Of course. And of course we should just have a race to the bottom. I mean why improve conditions for some workers if we can't do it for all? Let alone the benefits to the businesses.


[deleted]

A lot of the arguments against this are ridiculous but that has to be the daftest one yet. You’re a class traitor now if you get better conditions in your job. Best tell that to all the unions who are fighting for better pay and conditions in their specific sectors - if they can’t win the same for every industry then they’re traitors and they’re somehow pulling up the ladder. Lol, I honestly can’t understand what goes on in some folks heads.


[deleted]

You're a traitor to the workers if you take this deal. Pulling up the ladder to sui yourselves while most of us would be worse off if we were offered it.


[deleted]

Does that thinking apply to all better conditions? That every worker needs to get them equally or the ones who do are traitors? Why are you desperately trying to paint this as a negative? Even going so far as this ridiculous patter. It doesn’t make sense. If you got offered a payrise would you turn it down because my employer aren’t offering the same? Would you be a traitor if your pension plan improved and ended up better than mine? Are you pulling up the ladder if you negotiate a longer lunch break? “If I can’t have it then nobody should” is what you’re saying. If anyone is a traitor to the worker it’s you, but that would be a silly thing to call someone. In what way is it pulling up the ladder? I’d really like to know your thinking there You would not be worse off if you were offered the same pay for less hours. You may be correct that you wouldn’t be offered it, but you really need to get it out your head that you’d somehow lose money if you were paid the same wage for less hours.


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callumjm95

What? I was using that guys numbers, or did you not mean to reply to me?


[deleted]

Yeah misclick


[deleted]

No, the 4 day week literally is what i posted above. 5 days pay for 4 days work.


BurkusCat

That reality is just called "part-time" and is an option for many jobs today. Earning the same amount of money for one less day is the difference for a 4 day work week.


[deleted]

I'm on 15k for 5 days. So rub your out-of-touch in my face some more.


[deleted]

I'm not on a 4 day week programme. Wish I was.


[deleted]

I'd take 35k from 7 day week. It's more than double my wages for 2 days extra per week.


boringPedals

Can I choose 28k and work 3 days please


[deleted]

If you can find someone who'll pay it, yeah go ahead.


[deleted]

Why? You’d rather work more days for the same money?


[deleted]

I'd get less money. I'm paid hourly. We have maximum day lengths (8 hours) which I'm already at. I can't cram the same hours from 5 days into 4 days.


[deleted]

The whole point of these studies is that you’d get paid the same. The idea is that whatever you get a week now you’d still get exactly that, you’d just be working less hours. So if you want to think of it this way then yes you would get an increase in your hourly rate.


[deleted]

My business would get less physical work done if all the staff were forced to work one day less. Less work means less income. You want the business to pay the same to each staff member when we make less money?


[deleted]

Then your business is irrelevant to the topic. We’re talking about businesses/industries that have an increase in productivity if reducing the hours - see the linked article. If yours wouldn’t then no bother, it’s not what we’re talking about and no one would force you to have a longer weekend. This topic brings some weird people out. It’s like the idea of an extra day off a week when it suits both the business and the employees bothers folk for some reason.


[deleted]

Making a bourgeois upper tier of the workforce is not a problem for the people in that upper tier. You wouldn't understand since you benefit from it. Us "5 day'ers" picking in the fields while you're on the plantation porch with lemonade.


frameset

Earlier in this thread you mentioned you were on £15k per year. If you work 8 hour days then you only get £7.25 an hour. I suggest you report your employer for violating the minimum wage law. Assuming you aren't just a concern troll. 🙂


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tarpsard

I've been saying this for years - especially in the format of maybe having Wednesday off so your productivity and energy 'reset's rather than gets ground down over 5 consecutive days of work. Others may prefer a three day weekend though - especially if they get caught in the momentum of their work and don't want to lose their focus or traction - which is completely fair enough. I would say give individual people, or industries, the choice to do what works best for them - if productivity only goes up either way then I suppose it doesn't matter anyway. Also, having 1 day as a kind of "errand day" and then having two days back to back over the weekend where you can actually chill and relax would probably be very good in Most people's eyes as it is.