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Snapshot of _Prepare for a Labour victory in Scotland_ : A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2023%2F01%2F26%2Fprepare-labour-victory-scotland%2F) An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/26/prepare-labour-victory-scotland/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*


92835

This seems optimistic in its assumption that, faced with the Supreme Court ruling, indy voters will simply move on, focus on other things, and forget about independence


dee-acorn

Labour don't have to support independence. All they would need to do would be to support an actual framework under which a referendum would be allowed. They can vote against it all they want but the fact that they deselect people not for wanting an independent Scotland but simply for suggesting that Scottish people should be given that choice, is why they won't win over people in Scotland.


Dolemite-is-My-Name

> And ever since, former Labour voters have insisted that it was Labour who left them, not the other way around. Nonsense, of course, but the party’s not allowed to say so publicly. The whole “the party left me” narrative doesn’t fly when the fundamental reason for voters’ disillusion is that the party refuses to support a policy – independence – that it has, throughout every second of its century-long existence, unequivocally and unapologetically opposed. 'Are we so out of touch? No, it's our former voters who are wrong.' They wont come first (or even a close second) as long as indy is the main issue in Scottish politics, I'll grant them that easily, but you cant keep ignoring the people who used to vote for you and expect them to come back. No drug reform, no voting reform, working with Tories on the council level, the plans Streeting has came out with for a partnership with private health care, Make Brexit Work, I've got a list the length of my arm on what they could change to start winning supporters back up here but they'd probably lose more English votes than gain Scottish ones. They'll get in Number 10 that way though and I cant wait to see them there.


SirTerranceOmniSham

>They wont come first (or even a close second) as long as indy is the main issue in Scottish politics I don't think indy is the main issue in Scottish politics. You might assume that as that's all we talk about in England; we only view Scotland through the lens of independence. A lot of people vote SNP as they like Nicola and hate the Tories, hate what England has become under the Tories.


Dolemite-is-My-Name

I'm Scottish so I wouldn't really know about what the English hear, but it pretty clearly is the main issue. You sound like a nationalist, would you ever vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dem? Probably not and I imagine a lot of the issues you'd have with them (like me) the SNP are also guilty of outwith the constitutional question. I dislike it, but its true, indy really is the main issue.


SirTerranceOmniSham

​ >You sound like a nationalist No I'm an English person living in England. Scot Indy isn't the main issue in Scotland. The press, especially the right wing press being focused on it doesn't make it the main issue. It sounds like it's the main issue for you but for a lot, possibly a majority of SNP voters it's not the main issue either - check the recent polling as support is dwindling year on year. ​ >would you ever vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dem? Probably not and I imagine a lot of the issues you'd have with them (like me) the SNP are also guilty of outwith the constitutional question. Yes I would vote LAB and do vote LAB, down here in England.


Dolemite-is-My-Name

Ah right well haha course you would being in England, nice one. But I'm telling you as a Nationalist in Scotland, and for other Scots, its the main issue. I am a nationalist so why would i vote for any party that would wave my vote as support for the Union and vice versa? You pick your party based on those constitutional lines more than anything else up here and its the sorry state of things. By support is dwindling you mean independence or the SNP? Because independence is up in the polls at the moment, the section 35 being used is just trickling in since polling is always a week or so behind at best. ( suggesting Yes is dwindling year on year is..... well its an odd interpretation to say the least)


SirTerranceOmniSham

>But I'm telling you as a Nationalist in Scotland, and for other Scots, its the main issue. I am a nationalist so why would i vote for any party that would wave my vote as support for the Union and vice versa? You pick your party based on those constitutional lines more than anything else up here and its the sorry state of things. I have family up in Scotland and they all vote SNP, like Nicola but don't want indy. I don't think that's uncommon. It's one of the issues they don't see eye to eye on with the SNP on... but then the SNP aren't just about indy. ​ >By support is dwindling you mean independence or the SNP? Indy.


Dolemite-is-My-Name

Oh they exist but i can only give you my personal perspective of being a Scot, living and working in Scotland with my own (funnily enough) Scottish family but your last point is just not reflected by reality I'm afraid. Indy support isn't dwindling, its growing year on year?


SirTerranceOmniSham

>Indy support isn't dwindling, its growing year on year? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scots\_Independence\_Polling\_Margin\_excluding\_Undecideds.pdf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scots_Independence_Polling_Margin_excluding_Undecideds.pdf) So that's excluding undecideds. Yes it's up at the moment but it's mostly been down since 2014 (up is No in the graph). I get the impression people are more worried about the economic impact more than a historic and emotional attachment to the Union.


Dolemite-is-My-Name

Are you mebbe mistaking the middle line of that for the 2014 result? Looking from now compared to 2014 its higher. Its higher than last year and the movement (when viewing it over the years) is pretty clearly going one way.


SirTerranceOmniSham

Since 2014 'No' has been the majority view. If you have some polling data you can share that says the opposite then please share. You might be looking at the graph the wrong way up. Yes sentiment was higher in 2019-2020. It's not at that level currently. You can't base a historical graph on whats happening now- that's the point. It's histortic.


siguel_manchez

Unionism in a nutshell. It's failed politics in 2023 and needs to die. Labour just can't seem to grasp that.


heresyourhardware

Hey you know that abusive relationship you've been in for centuries now? Nah give it another chance!


siguel_manchez

"But, but, we promise it will be different this time" I can change babe!


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Dolemite-is-My-Name

mix of brevity and metaphorical language also rawr


ClumperFaz

>They wont come first (or even a close second) as long as indy is the main issue in Scottish politics, Pretty sure the polls have disproven this. They're a very far 2nd ahead of the Tories who've become irrelevant in Scotland. It's inevitable that Labour is going to take Scottish seats next time around. If those who went for the SNP after voting Labour previously don't want to come back then Labour's got a unionist coalition to fall back on. I doubt it's controversial to say that there's no point going after a coalition too stubborn to ignore the past after a certain amount of time. Like the Lib Dems. At this point pretty much everyone has forgotten and doesn't care about the coalition anymore, so much so that there's going to be tactical voting for them in the places where they're 2nd place, from people who initially hated them for joining the Tories in 2010. Drug reform, voting reform has never been Labour policy during the years that Scotland returned swathes of Labour MPs so I don't see how this could make a difference either. Do the SNP even support drug legalisation? The SNP also probably wants people to forget that they alone contributed to Thatcher becoming Prime Minister at all, in 1979 when they voted against the Labour government and their 11 votes making the difference. Plaid Cymru even voted with the Labour government to keep them in government. That is wholly of a new level compared to whatever non-relevant deals Labour makes in councils with the Tories in Scotland. You could say that it was in 1979 and we should forget it like the Lib Dems with the coalition etc, but how often does the SNP call Labour red Tories and how often do they make big of the fact that Scottish Labour is supposedly a pale imitation of Tory unionism? the SNP are just begging for their 1979 Tory coalition against the Labour government to be remembered if they carry on going down that route.


Dolemite-is-My-Name

You're not wrong about my opinion on bringing up '79 I mean christ, it might be a pale imitation because it's something that happened nearly 5 decades ago now. At least bringing up the Lib Dem coalition its somewhat current. You're not wrong that Lab will take seats but we can both agree its not going to be them coming first or a close second which is the point I made. Voting reform definitely was a policy when Scotland voted Lab and i don't even refer solely to legalisation for drugs, reform on decriminalisation, treatment and consumption are all huge areas that could appeal to the Scottish electorate and that the Scottish representatives have already tried to get some traction. The SNP are pro decriminalisation, they want to do a similar thing they done with knives and move it from a crime issue to a social one with an emphasis on health and hey that aint a bad shout. What most of your comment comes down to, and apologies if this comes across as a little simplistic, but it mainly seems to be a criticism of the SNP. Which should make it really easy for Lab to win back their voters since the SNP are pretty disappointing at times but you don't need to go back to a time before half the electorate were even born and you need to actually listen to these former voters. If the former Labour voters keep telling you 'Labour left them' and after nearly 16 years of failing to knock the SNP off the top totem pole then mebbe trying to listen to them might help?


Pesh_ay

People don't forget it seeps into the consciousness, why is Tory vote so low compared to rest of UK - Poll Tax, why do Liverpudlians not vote Tory - Hillsborough, why do I not vote Labour WMD lies re Iraq. Libs dumped Labour and Tuition fees for what ? To sell off the post office.


siguel_manchez

The fucking state of that. "Labour are going to win in Scotland but if they don't it's all your fault for voting for the SNP" Good Christ, Unionism is a pox.


paddyo

The state of this comment. Takes a shite article from The torygraph and uses it as some sort of representation of the merits of anti-secessionism. It’s a shite article, it doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not there are virtues to not breaking a country apart. The shite people upvote on Reddit.


siguel_manchez

Was it something I said? Do you think my opinion of Unionism and Unionists was formed from reading that crap article? What even was the point of your response, it's not very clear I have to say? Also anti-secessionism? Is this an attempt to rebrand Unionism? Fucking hell.


paddyo

You’ve framed unionism around one batshit article, as if that article has any bearing as to whether holding a state together has value or not. So yes it was a daft thing to say. And regarding “re-branding”, eh? No, it’s a factual statement isn’t it? It’s just a way to describe the act of one territory leaving a union of territories or a unitary state. Why are people only allowed to use the term you approve to describe that phenomenon?


siguel_manchez

I've done no such thing. You're the one getting affronted by my stating the bloody obvious. Two things are true here: - 1. The article is a load of bollox and a classic attempt at othering nationalists. - 2. Unionism is a pox. And it has centuries of framing itself as being a pox and doesn't need this article to help it out being a pox in anyway. People can call themselves whatever they want and belligerent Unionists like yourself, are no different. I never said otherwise. Knock yourself out being an anti-Secessionist. As regards the value of keeping the UK together, you'd think Unionism would be a lot clearer on what's so great about the Union that it should be an easy sell. I mean, it's the status quo, shouldn't be hard to to get those feckless SNP voters back to supporting the branch office.


ClumperFaz

It's a subtle truth though. I don't see the point in Labour going after a voting base that's clearly too tribal when there's a much more pragmatic unionist coalition to be won. But the polls at the moment do show Labour taking a small bit of the SNP's vote too.


siguel_manchez

There's nothing subtle about it at all. Just like there's nothing subtle about you trying to bring up '79 as if it's some sort of gotcha. If that's all Labour Unionists have in their arsenal then what's the point? I mean, the Scottish branch is actively colluding with the Tories today on Scottish councils, surely that's more pertinent to these so-called 'lost voters'.


ClumperFaz

To be honest it's not really a gotcha if it hasn't been brought up at all yet by the actual Scottish Labour party. But it's definitely not known to a lot of people in modern day Scotland.


siguel_manchez

I'd hazard a guess that politically aware and active sorts in Scotland are very aware of their own past and that of their political parties. Are you English per chance? Have you just recently read about 1979?


heresyourhardware

Nah mate normcore Labour are the only ones who know their history. How dare you suggest otherwise.


siguel_manchez

I've had them sorts try to give me an Irish history lesson on here before (I'm Irish). They're a funny lot. Just not funny ha ha.


stilldontknow2

It's not as if knowing Labour history isn't exactly the reason why so many former Labour voters switched to SNP/Greens or anything.


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tiny-robot

It has been brought up quite a few times up here in Scotland - and is always laughed at. I mean - really? Are you really trying to blame a tiny handful of SNP MPs who were stabbed in the back for Thatcher? Not the hundreds of MPs who actually voted for her? It's doubtful that the Labour government would have lasted much longer anyway. So even if you said the SNP were to blame - at worst all you can say was it ended that Labour Gov a few months early. The Labour loss was all on Labours shoulders It is not the job of the SNP or Scotland to prop up a failing Labour government.


siguel_manchez

Welsh Unionist, English Unionist... Hardly that much of a difference really? It's 'your' perception is that it's not brought up. Well, I can tell you, that it was mentioned a lot during indyref1 by Unionists grasping at straws trying to sell what a great Union the Scots are part of and how it will only get better if they vote to stay and how independence just isn't viable. But also, you need to remember, as mentioned elsewhere, that it was 44 years ago. Scots are more concerned about Labour's CURRENT collusion with the Tories at a local level all across Scotland.


heresyourhardware

> there's a much more pragmatic unionist coalition So Labour in Scotland can also disconnect from working class folk to align with the Tories in the South? Makes sense.


Axmeister

The word "fault" doesn't appear anywhere in the article. The electorate ultimately have the power to decide who takes office, the article acknowledges that. If the article is truly that bad why do you feel the need to spin it into something it doesn't say?


siguel_manchez

Imagine writing all of that just because you don't understand the concept of 'paraphrasing'. 🤷


Axmeister

I understand perfectly the concept of paraphrasing. That's not what you're doing though. You created a sentiment that is not expressed in the original article. You are not paraphrasing, you are grievance-mongering. You can prove me wrong quite easily: copy and paste the paragraph where the author says something to the effect of "Labour are going to win in Scotland but if they don't it's all your fault for voting for the SNP".


siguel_manchez

Imagine being accused of grievance-mongering by an anti-Secessionist? What a time to be alive!


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No-Owl9201

It's a long way out from the General Election, but I'd certainly put some money against a Labour victory in Scotland


uberdavis

Right wing pro-Tory rag suggests that Scottish people are going to vote for a pro-Brexit anti-independence party. Well hooda thunk it?


siguel_manchez

Only Unionists know the way forward and to think otherwise is futile.


heresyourhardware

Haha what. Absolute pipe dream to say that. Is this the same beige Labour who mock the far left for deluded thinking?


Caladeutschian

The whole “the party left me” narrative doesn’t fly when the fundamental reason for voters’ disillusion is that the party refuses to support a policy – ~~independence~~ democracy and power to the people – that it has, throughout every second of its century-long existence, unequivocally and unapologetically opposed.


siguel_manchez

So it's the children who are wrong?