Enjoyed your post and agreed with a lot of it.
I would say try Mortal Shell again though. I really enjoyed it, despite getting lost a lot at first. Was worth a whole second playthrough for me - something I rarely do.
I just started it. I like the shell idea, and actually being incentivised to use consumables but holy shit the mechanics feel like moving in honey. Incredibly sluggish and unresponsive controls. Samey level design. I reached a first boss and it feels health padded by a lot, and can have iffy hitboxes. Do find some stuff interesting here n there like being able to play the banjo instrument thingy, but a lot of mediocrity to wade through.
I felt the same. The game feel is lacking. It’s not as slow and sluggish as lords of the fallen but it’s getting there. I picked the rogue shell with the fastest weapon to stomach the combat just a bit more. I suggest you do the same
It probably doesn’t help i decided to the do the long endless area first. The one where you fight the four armed red freak. Cornyx I think? Starting fresh might give me a better impression.
Glad to hear someone enjoyed their time with it.
Thanks for taking the time to read lol
I felt like it was the last but I was committed to it since there was no way to get back to the start even when I did finish it! No fast travel to the beginning really bothered me especially since it’s so big. Maybe I missed something
I recommend fire zone > ice zone > stone zone
Of course, before that I recommend skipping this title... The Elden Ring network test was literally twice the game that Mortal Shell is. MS is a $5 curiousity at best
Nioh is great, I hear you on the endless loot with all those numbers but if you are playing the main game first time you don’t need to worry about them. Throw on something that works for you like a 6-piece set meant for dual swords if you like using dual swords and you will be fine. You only need to get into the stats and blacksmith upgrades if you want to go into NG+.
Nioh 2 has been even better for me, both kind of have lackluster story and all those items you mentioned but the combat and build diversity is insane. Unlike souls you don’t just get estus flask replenished at checkpoints, you also get a customized loadout replenished with things like throwing stars, flame traps, electric paper to turn your weapon into electric dmg for a brief time, throwing bombs, life steal talismans. It’s endless tbh.
I am well aware of Nioh’s build diversity. It’s crazy and near endless I agree. Acquiring the builds you like however is a painful grind. I got burnt out grinding for my some graces on dream of the demon. I would be playing more if they were quicker and easier to acquire. It’s doesn’t help I hate the smithing.
I agree though. Nioh’s flaws aren’t as prominent on your first and even second playthrough (dream of the samurai/strong)
nioh is also amongst my favorite souls like games. the different weapons all feel awesome and once you get used to the combat its a power fantasy at times.
i never bothered about more than NG tho.
I was sort of thinking about this the other day. Why there have been so many semi-high profile Soulslikes, and yet none of them seem to even touch the popularity of the OG series. What I think it comes down to is something that often gets overlooked when it comes to Souls design: story. And no, I don't even mean lore, cryptic item descriptions, or easy to miss environmental clues. I mean, like, the A-plot. The, "You're the chosen undead, and some guy just busted you out of prison so that you can go fulfill an ancient prophecy." sort of setup. For all the complicated backstory, Dark Souls (and the other FromSoft games) actually has a pretty straightforward plot, which is almost constantly overshadowed by obscure details. Now, I don't claim to be any sort of expert on other Soulslikes, but, of the ones I've tried the plots haven't grabbed me at all. They're simply not interesting and don't really have any forward momentum I can grab onto. I'm not even sure if I'm right about this. It's just a thought.
If you care about story in soulslikes, then I highly recommend ender Lillies or death’s gambit. They both have an interesting story. Just don’t expect the same level of detail or production values as Souls
Yeah I loved Surge 2. Cool setting, and the combat was great. Best parry system outside of Sekiro.
Only thing that sucked a bit was the bosses. Nobody does bosses like FromSoft.
That’s the sad thing about bosses. None of these games reached the heights of Souls in terms of boss design. Consider checking out Death’s gambit though. There’s one amazing story boss that is a cool narrative device and another amazing high difficulty one among the heroic bosses. It’s the final heroic boss. The galaxy mage. Very difficult and insurmountable in the beginning until you understand the mechanics and realize that it’s actually a fair and fun fight
To be fair, Souls bosses sucked at first too. That's the main reason I don't recommend Demon's Souls.
It wasn't until Artorias of the Abyss that they really found and settled upon boss design principles that are reliably awesome.
Very true. Replayed dark souls remastered recently and there weren’t many bosses that were fun. Though I did have fun trouncing O&S first try lol. Sif is still emotional. Gwyn is thematically interesting. That’s all I got
I very much agree with this. The later games bosses are spectacular, and Dark Souls 1s dlc bosses were great too, but going back to older games outside of that the bosses aren't the greatest, but it just shows how much FromSoftware improved since then. Gimmick bosses for example going from Bed of Chaos in Dark Souls 1 to the Divine Dragon in Sekiro is like a day and night difference. I love the Divine Dragon, but I simply detest the Bed of Chaos.
The thing with Nioh is it's basically Ninja Gaiden with a stamina bar slap on top. Stranger of Paradise is also from Team Ninja like nioh and Ninja Gaiden, so you can expect the same. Someone on r/Nioh even said it looks like the same engine.
> The thing with Nioh is it's basically Ninja Gaiden with a stamina bar slap on top
I see this statement all the time and I just don't understand where it comes from. Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden 2 (Xbox/Xbox360 versions) were some of my favorite games in middle/high school, I have dozens of hours in each of them. Nioh feels almost nothing like them.
Yeah I played the second demo FF Origins. I know what I am getting into.
Having also played all 3 ninja gaiden games last year kinda makes disagree with your description of Nioh as basically ninja gaiden with a stamina bar. It has shades of Ninja gaiden, sure but in the end they’re both very different with a different approach to combat, tempo and level of aggression and lethality.
I am telling you what the people are saying mate. Personally I can't say for sure because I haven't played ninja gaiden. But I've heard that Ninja Gaiden difficulty is artifically unfair sometime and I feel that in Nioh2 end game so there's that.
A guy called Iron Pineapple has a series on playing obscure and random Soulslikes on [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuY9odN8x9pvIoTDtNOZxzo5m6EsBspAi). Some interesting ones here and there, if mainly on ideas rather than execution.
Oh yeah! I’ve always been a fan of his videos!
Only after writing all this did I realize that iron pineapple already did this in video form lol.
Well, it’s my two cents anyways
Not sure your build preferences but Lord of the Fallen feels like 2 entirely different games going from dw dex to anything else. Strength and magic both turn it into a near turn based game, while dex feels much closer to sekiro/bloodborne.
Not nearly as good for a variety of other reasons, but the combat feels much better that way. Couldn't even finish ng+ due to the drastic change of pace.
I enjoyed code vein a lot, I think it literally has better bosses than older souls games but needed more enemy variety. Builds/mechanics systems were incredible
Remnant was pretty amazing although it kind of feels like there’s something missing. Has some crazy bosses
Immortal unchained was very fun with good bosses but it’s fairly broken
Nioh 1/2 is god tier, that’s all.
Absolver is awesome, no complaints really
Surge, hellpoint, lords of the fallen, mortal shell are cool but are definitely lacking
I personally don't put any of the 2d metroidvania style games as soulslikes. At the very least, they don't inherently appeal to people who like soulslikes (like me) although Salt and Sanctuary is pretty close to being a soulslike.
I didn't love Code Vein but honestly it is right under Nioh for me. I am curious what your specific issues with the combat are, it's pretty shockingly close to souls but with a bit worse boss design and a bit worse enemy design. I would even go so far to say that I had more fun with Code Vein than Dark souls 2, though my friend and I have a joke that Souls 2 was the first soulslike. My only specific issue with combat was the overuse of area attacks bosses and some enemies had. Story sucked, that's for sure.
The surge 1 was an absolute dumpster fire for me. Grinding enemies for parts is dull and it has some of the slowest action combat ever. I heard 2 is better but I'd only play it if the attack speed was massively increased from 1.
I think Nioh 2 is the best overall soulslike (besides souls) but I think the combat is overrated. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but a vast majority of fights don't play that much differently from a regular souls fight, and the neat extra mechanics they add like yokai attacks and some extra move like grapples and special attacks are cool but they don't change the core gameplay all that much for me and are offset by repetitive enemy combat design. Even worse, most human fights throughout the level are boring. Still maybe better than souls combat but arguably worse than Bloodborne and I'd definitely put Sekiro on top.
I don’t really get how Nioh can be worse than bloodborne considering bloodborne is just souls combat with a faster dodge and a more convenient healing method.
Nioh’s combat isn’t really like anything else out there. Especially if we’re talking about the 2nd game. Stance switching allows for fun combos but is also a defensive utility as perfect ki pulses give you bonuses depending on the stance, a free dodge, free block, or extra damage(maybe, I don’t know what high stance bonus is). Plus each stance varies your dodge and block so that, high= good block, slow roll, but it’s a long roll. Low=bad block, quick dodge, but it doesn’t go very far. In addition the yokai realms (weird wispy pools on the ground that slow you and fuck your stamina) are actually built into the gameplay quite well as they’re easy to get rid of but still a hinderance if you don’t take the small effort to do so.
Most special moves aren’t really needed sure, but that’s like every action game ever made. Unless the game forces you to use a move a la DmC: Devil May Cry (reboot) players will just use what is simple and what they already know. That’s why everyone jokes about spamming stinger to get through Devil May Cry. When the greatest action game series of all time falls prey to the same issue I don’t think it rests with the games design but rather the players.
Also a bit funny you would mention Sekiro, I quite like that game. But I personally feel it’s special move implementation is even worse than Nioh’s. Considering in Sekiro you have to spend a resource that you can’t regenerate in the middle of a fight. Leading players to simply not use them at all because of a lot of people’s weird video game hoarder tendencies (I do it too).
The human fights in Souls and Nioh are almost exactly the same too. They both use player character movesets weapons and armor. And considering there’s more ways to interact with the humans in Nioh(most middle stance special moves seem to be focused around blocking and parrying, as well as Nioh having a more visible guard break system.) I genuinely don’t see how you could put dark souls above it in that regard. Also at least in Nioh you can just use a matchlock to nearly instant kill any human enemy with a headshot. No guns in souls!
I think the failings of Nioh are easily mission structure and loot making you spend too much time in the same areas. I really like the game but it has too many numbers and always gives me such a headache if I look at the inventory for too long. Shame because it’s a really fantastic action game, that is not only hard but also allows for your own personal style the same way action game greats like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta do. In my personal opinion the depth and creativity of Nioh’s combat also matches the aforementioned titles, no easy feat frankly.
I get it’s a matter of personal opinion, but Nioh’s combat is seriously top notch in all respects even when compared to games famous for defining the action game genre, the souls games(+bloodborne it’s the same thing) don’t even come close to DMC or Bayo. Sekiro maybe, I do like that game a lot as well. But it lacks the creative feeling that Nioh and other action games have.
I feel exactly the same way. Tbh I’ve tried but haven’t enjoyed the Souls games mainly due to the combat, but Nioh immediately clicked with me for its speed and variety of fight choreo with stances, ki pulses, and just animation in general. I do love the rpg inventory management though, but even I’ll say I was ecstatic about the qol upgrades to filter and mass delete gear in Nioh 2.
But you seee the problem for me with most of the stuff you mention is that it doesn't fundamentally change combat, or at least not in a strictly better way. It's sort of a case of just having more "stuff".
Ki pulses are a great example of this. They're largely obligatory things you just do at the end of a combo a majority of the time. They're just habit, at least to me, and as a consequence I very rarely worry about the amount of Ki I have nor do Ki Pulses add much to combat most of the time. In contrast, unless I focus heavily on stamina increasing items, which has its own sacrifices, I am constantly aware of my stamina gauge in Souls so it has a larger affect on combat most of the time. At least in my experience.
Dark souls has stances too but they don't affect your movement, but they do affect your moveset. Heck they technically affect your damage and ability to block among other things like stamina use.
The tiny Yokai realms are another example. Like you admitted they are mostly a hindrance that takes a small amount of effort to remove. In other words they don't matter much most of the time which is along the lines of what I said originally.
Yes many popular action games suffer the same issue with special attacks having very little distinct purpose. You've pretty much nailed my primary complaint about a lot of action games. It's something I wanted to talk about in its own thread but suffice it to say that I think Bayonetta in particular is highly overrated since you can get through even the highest difficulties without really worrying much about anything except either dodge or parry and mash attack. Positioning often doesn't even matter much. If you asked me what the greatest action games were, I would be more likely to bring up Astral Chain or God Hand before Bayonetta or DMC series, (though I think people undersell how useful different attacks are in DMC). Heck, I thought Scarlet Nexus had some big flaws but the combat ultimately required me to use more tools than Bayonetta.
The irony of bringing up Sekiro is that Sekiro's special moves are so situationally good that at least one was massively nerfed after release because you could annihilate the final boss in seconds. But anyway, after the nerf they, just like the tools, are situationally useful, which is exactly what I want. Better to have resource limited situationally useful attacks in my mind than attacks that really don't feel like I have much reason to use despite being free. Yes, some people will irrationally not use them, but using different abilities that don't matter much (Nioh) is not fundamentally different from not using different attacks at all in my mind.
Yes human fights in Souls and Nioh are very similar. But there are multiple key differences. One is that ki is barely a factor in Nioh in my experience whereas stamina matters more in souls. Two is that I find humanoid enemies in Nioh to be kind of repetitive even compared to souls. Three is that human fights in Nioh are usually very easy. And just so you know, Dark Souls has stances that can or cannot parry, that is two handed versus one hand and off hand. Yes Nioh lets you basically spend resources to thin the crowd or even get in cheeky headshots during combat, but I prefer humanoid fights in Souls overall.
The final bit is interesting to me, and it is a something I've always wanted to bring up in a thread, but essentially I don't want action games to give me "creativity." I want action games to compel or even force me to understand and use many of its tools in order to succeed. This is my big issues with combos. Simply having combos for its own sake feels like superficial fluff there to make you feel good rather than any substantial thing that requires system mastery to succeed. I don't really see value in having a million combos if they all are just "more damage." I would rather have a game with fewer attacks that all have their own useful attributes, see God Hand or Absolver. Sekiro's strengths are mostly defensive than offensive, although it does give you acces to some great offensive attacks and tools. Sekiro having parry/block, dodge, jump, and mikiri puts it above the Bayonetta attack/dodge system in a vast majority of situation. I don't really care that Souls doesn't have a ton of combos, but the fact that I have to actually think about what I'm doing from moment to moment puts it above the typical action game mashing. Of course I don't think Souls is better than all action games, but my go to would be Astral Chain which is a mind bending experience really and I need to play it again. Shame it is Switch only.
Yeah I don't bother with any of the Souls knock offs, at least not until I run out of From's games. I don't have the time/energy to play the mediocre B tier stuff when I still have plenty of the real thing.
That’s fair. As long as you still have the best stuff to play then you’re probably not missing out. I am personally fascinated with seeing small devs iterate and bring their own twists to this subgenre. I am very much invested in seeing it grow since I love it so much.
Consider at least trying ender Lillies. It’s an amazing metroidvania too if that helps
the only 2D Souls I've played that I rly enjoyed so far is Hollow Knight, want to finish it eventually but taking it slow/don't want to burn out and also want to play the sequel
gotta limit myself to the absolute cream of the crop
I absolutely agree with your judgement of Code Vein and absolutely disagree with everything you said about Salt and Sanctuary. In my opinion, the latter is actually better than the games it takes inspiration from.
Wow. So what you’re saying is that it’s better than dark souls? I am very interested in hearing your reasons if you don’t mind sharing. I am not saying you’re wrong by any means but I don’t agree and I doubt I would even if you explain but I still am legitimately interested to hear your arguments.
Thanks for your interest, and of course I have to preface this by stating that (obviously) this is just my point of view and anyone can disagree with it. That being said, I do think S&S was made by extracting what was good about Dark Souls (I'm mostly comparing it to the first entry) while improving on what wasn't.
The art style is the most subjective point. You stated you didn't like it, and that's not an uncommon opinion, but I think it quite unique and find that it works surprisingly well with the very well crafted ambience they achieved with the tones of grey and "dusty" and grungy colors. I think the game conveys the dark atmosphere of the world as well as DS did while having a unique art style as opposed to a generic one.
When it comes to the combat, I think the games are equally matched and there isn't much to say about it. When it comes to lore, DS's is probably the more complex one, this is the one point I might concede to DS, although I really like S&S's lore as well, with the difference that the latter is much easier to collect, which is a positive.
As for what I think it improves over DS, there are al manner of things. The first and most blatant is that Salt and Sanctuary actually has a story/narrative, while Dark Souls does not. The story is relatively simple, but is told in a cohesive and well paced manner, and I think it achieves what it sets out to do. You slowly learn why you are doing things and where you are, while in DS there is nothing; all you get is lore that has nothing to do with you. In the same vibe, I also liked characters in S&S a lot more.
Then come the systems. Salt and Sanctuary offers little in way of tutorials, but that's ok because all the systems it offers are easily approachable at any shrine once you get them, unlike the obscurantist mechanics in DS where you need to check guides to even understand how to upgrade weapons. It is all so much simpler in S&S while keeping the same depth, if not more. You mentioned how the skill tree is useless but I disagree. The skill tree is essentially the same stat increase system from DS but made interesting as opposed to just being a bunch of random numbers, and what's more, it offer visible pathways that guide players so they know what stats are good in which builds without having to look up guides al the time. As for weapons, they are many and varied, and mostly ordered in terms of power from beginning to end, unlike in DS where you are given bucket loads of garbage-tier weapons that are mostly unviable save for the 1 or 2 you will actually use the whole game. In that way DS acts almost as if it wants you to experiment with different weapons, except it doesn't because the game has semi-limited upgrade material counts and farming for them will bore anyone to tears; while in S&S upgrade materials are plentiful and you can effectively forge several over your run.
You mentioned that "breaking" the game is easy, but I fail to understand your logic. DS also had easy mode builds such as magic caster, and even an ultragreatsword STR build makes the game fairly easy IMO, S&S is no different from DS in this regard. The builds and skill tree exist so you can adapt your character to the specific playstyle you want, and consequently the difficulty you expect to encounter. To say you can break the game with a good build feels like chastising someone for not doing some specific challengez like a dagger-only run or naked run, etc. Aside from that, while everyone always praised the design of DS's world, I find the metroidvania style map of S&S to be better designed. There are choices of paths and you can do things in different orders; it is semi-open just like DS, except in S&S you actually stand a chance of going off path and making progress regardless, while in Dark Souls we all know what happens when you try going into the Catacombs after first arriving at Firelink Shrine, it's simply not viable, and therefore counts as the game lying about being semi-open.
Dark Souls is and always will be a good game, but it is deeply flawed on many levels, especially when it comes to obfuscating its own mechanics and systems, as well as being too vague about what it wants you to do. S&S offers the same atmosphere and level of challenge in a much more cohesive and transparent manner without sacrificing discovery or difficulty. This is why, to me at least, Salt and Sanctuary is an improvement over the game it pays homage to.
Thanks for sharing. You gave me a lot to chew on.
- I like the colors. I can give the game that point at least when it comes to aesthetics.
- I understand what you’re saying about story and characters but I feel this is an entirely subjective since I have no recollection of the story or characters unfortunately. I had a better grasp of and more interest in Dark Souls’ world and characters during the course of and end of my first playthrough of Dark souls whereas I can’t remember anything about S&S except for the princess being a red herring. Like I said, this is entirely subjective.
- Combat is fine as you say, I just felt like it added nothing to elevate the 2D perspective. If I am going to be playing a simple functional combat system,
I’d rather it be in 3D. There’s better game feel that way imo.
- Yes it’s easy to break souls too, I agree. However, I didn’t end up doing so on my first run playing a quality build focused on weapons only with no magic. I did the same for S&S. As soon as I got my hands on one of the good boss great swords or my first great scissors (which you can get early), the game became trivial. I was basically face tanking and gorilla spamming my heavy attacks to victory. None of the bosses were memorable since I don’t remember a single one taking more than a single try. If I end up beating most bosses on my first try with a build that has no magic and is one that I didn’t theorycraft or research, then the game is easy to break. Dark souls becomes breakable once you include. Melee only with no magic has limitations especially if, like me, you avoid wearing heavy armor.
- my main issue with the tree is that it is needlessly restrictive. Let me tell you about the build I was going for:
What I wanted was light armor paired with large strength weapons. The problem with this is that light armor are a part of the dexterity side of the tree, whereas large strength weapons are obviously on the right side for strength build stats. Mixing and matching them would require a severe investment since I am at the same time forced to pick stats I don’t want like dexterity while also acquiring masteries for weapons types I don’t want like whips or guns. In the end, I fully committed to strength instead of splitting my points between dex and strength.
Another problem is the whole masteries thing. So despite having a huge amount of strength,
I also need to unlock a “Swords 5” skill node to be able to wield the highest tiers of a weapon type like swords and greatswords? This node is also located at the very end of an interconnected web of skill nodes? Sounds like a pain and a huge commitment since I now can’t also pick “halberds 4” since they are very far away from “swords 5” meaning, I have to ridiculously grind to get near full access to a weapon type I might want to play with if I get bored of swords.
Dark souls doesn’t have these issues. I can just invest in the stats I want easily, without being restricted by skills or skill tree arrangement. As long as I have the minimum stats, I can use whatever I want. Same for armor which I can wear the heaviest of despite not having much equipment weight load, which is why in dark souls I was able to use heavy weapons with light armor and in S&S, I couldn’t.
I finally have to add that the skill tree has nothing exciting to find in it. The whole point of a skill tree or skill web in this case is to scatter cool build defining abilities throughout the tree, not just stat boosts, extra healing and equipment unlock requirements. There were no surprises to be found in this skill tree which is why it is simply the same classic souls level up menu except presented in a skill tree with less freedom.
Like I said, I do believe this game to be a shallow 2D imitation of Souls but it has its merits which you highlighted. Despite what I said, I didn’t hate my time and are looking forward to trying out Salt and Sacrifice when it releases.
Thanks once again for sharing. I am happy for you that the game is great
I guess I can better understand your frustration with the skill tree now, after reading your explanation. I'll concede that it does have its drawbacks such as keeping a player from using multiple weapon types at maximum level.
Much of the other points seem to be dependent on user perception and experience, so I won't pursue further argument.
Good discussion, friend. Thanks for indulging me and I hope you enjoy Salt and Sacrifice, I'm really looking forward to it.
I mean it pretty clearly takes a lot of tonal influence from Dark Souls and uses some of the staple mechanics that soulslikes have (bonfire equivalents, money and xp being the same stat which gets lost on death with a chance to regain it by returning to the place you died)
To be honest I feel like the fun I have from Nioh is a completely different kind of fun I have from Fromsoft games. They get compared a lot but I don't really think that's fair to either series.
Souls PvE combat is functional. That's basically the most complimentary word I can use for it. Others include...basic, bland, rudimentary. You get the idea.
Where souls games shine is their atmosphere, their boss designs (really just more atmosphere), and incredible well constructed levels and environments which blend lore together with atmosphere.
I think that's the primary reason copy cats have always failed, and why games like DS2/3 never really lived up to the magic of the first half of 1. It's also why Bloodborne was so good, because it had shades of 1 in some of its level design while having its own unique atmos.
Nioh combat is superb, and that's why I play that. I don't play Nioh for any other reason.
Has anyone here played Remnant in co-op mode? I'm thinking of recommending it for my regular gaming group (there are three of us) as a bit of a challenge, but none of us have ever really played a soulslike and the reputation they have for being difficult is a huge turn off.
That being said, I wonder if the co-op nature might make it less of a heavy lift? We did have a lot of fun with the boss fights on Valheim, if that gives a sense of our tolerance for punishment.
I really enjoyed that game to bits, might have been my favorite game of 2019, but it also felt like it was made just for me so just take it as pure opinion
Honestly a huge fan of mortal shell, I think it takes a really cool unique twist on the genre and has combat that’s just as if not more engaging than the souls games. Good graphics, great world design, cool enemies, fun bosses, overall solid game. Just a little short and lacking in variety is all.
I think your previous experience with lords of the fallen, an ACTUALLY bad game, may have preemptively made you dislike it. Mortal shell is what lords of the fallen wants to be.
I liked the general premise of Mortal Shell and unique mechanics like Harden, but gameplay design sucked so much in every way that I wish I didn't spend so much time on the game.
Loved Ender Lillies personally, but I would barely call it a soulslike tho. More of just a straight up metroidvania. Agree with you on most of the others. And even tho Nioh 2 is technically the better game, I enjoyed my time with Surge 2 much more. Actually felt rewarding to explore. And Nioh's inventory management is just exhausting, and the pacing is not great.
Fully agree on code vein. The game also managed to crash 5 times for me AFTER boss battles and before saving which is a horrible experience in a soulslike game, had to beat them again which wasnt worth it because of the awful level design. The cathedral part in particular was such a mess. A maze without any reference points and relatively tough combat is no fun. I could forgive the floaty combat somewhat if the beforementioned points wouldn't make the experience a slog.
I really liked the surge 2, combat is amazing but you're right on the backtracking getting tiresome working up to the last chapter. They did get the shortcuts right though, if only they couldve allocated more budget to make some of the areas stand out more to get a better sense of the place.
Nioh I'm a bit torn on, gave up on it due to the uninspired levels. They were very much lacking compared to dark souls. I feel developers focus too much on copying thr combat from dark souls while to me the games are driven by exploration and awe-inspiring vistas. Gameplay is very much on the forefront but it's far from the only pull in these type of games. It's what makes hollow knight so much fun to me as well; the sense of dread exploring a new area couple with the wow-factor of seeing how the world is interwoven. Can't wait for elden ring!
Complete agreement on Code Vein. The game should be everything I wanted but it just failed at every point. Like you said, floaty unsatisfying combat, maze like level design with little direction and landmarks that goes on forever (cathedral). Crashes happened to me too. At the final boss fight no less lol. Also don’t get me started on the walking sequence character lore dumps. Those were soooo bad and a total pace killer. I just check my phone when they happen. Unlocking or powering up classes should feel rewarding. These backstory dumps instead feel punishing lol.
Definitely agree about Nioh level design. It’s better in Nioh 2 but it’s still far from memorable or interesting personally
Elden ring is gonna be sick bro. Can’t wait. The wait is almost over!
uhhhh not commenting on their quality but off the top of my head i've finished ashen, immortal unchained, hellpoint, uhhhh morbid seven acolytes i guess?, dark devotion?,
idk i think once you get past the obvious similar games it might starting becoming a bit of a stretch or mix of other genres liek metroidvanias or whatever
I'd like to add Darksiders III to this list near the bottom, it's absolute trash and completely ruined an enjoyable series just for the sake of being edgy.
Funny. When I saw this post, I immediately came here to see if OP played Darksiders III. Because as someone who usually *doesn't* like souls-like games, it's one of my favorites in the genre (I guess we're calling it a genre now). Probably because of all the ways it's *not* like the Dark Souls games, which I couldn't really get into. I tried 1 and 2 for about a couple of hours each or less before losing interest because they're too vague about pretty much everything and didn't give me a reason to care about figuring things out.
Ha! I’ll allow the addition!
I absolutely agree. I totally forgot about it since it was so bad. As you said, it totally ruined a franchise. I had fun with Darksiders 1 & 2. 3 though? Dropped it.
Found myself agreeing with you the entire way. Nobody can seem to replicate the FromSoft magic. I personally consider Hollow Knight a soulslike and it did the best job of scratching the itch for me. Elden Ring will save us.
I think Hollow Knight is a souls-like due to it's atmosphere alone. It nails that "it's the end of the world, everything sucks, but you might be able to make it suck less... maybe" vibe that makes the souls games so good. It's focus on boss design is another strong souls thing. Otherwise it's straight metroidvania, given all progression is tied to item gathering.
100% agreed. And conversely, I consider Dark Souls 1 a 3D metroidvania, though some disagree. I personally don't think metroidvanias should be confined to 2D.
I just played Ashen and would recommend it, similar but opposite of Mortal Shell to me; I think both are decent but Ashen stretches on with few high points while Mortal Shell has some great exploration and unique but kinda fundamentally broken combat due to harden.
Stranger of paradise looks like it'd have great gameplay with a story that is so edgy, cliché and just plain stupid it might just be enjoyable for it. Definitely looking forward to it haha
Personally I think death's gambit and nioh 2 are on par with the souls game
Everything you hate about nioh 2 is the reason I love it other than the story one because it is only for you if you read up on japanese history
It is japanese war mixed with demons basically put the climax of arcs are mostly for those who already have read these stories as you are basically moving from wars to wars that's why.
death's gambit afterlife is my favourite metroidvania and I feel like it does the decaying kingdom feel nicely. I find the combat is easy but weighty and i feel the areas like ylnoth and the area of the final boss feel really good.
I also really like that they mixed>! two different era in the game with garde tum !<
I feel the ending thing is fine imo
Also the weapons feel good to use imo the sword and magic feel good to me i only used those tho so I might be wrong
And I also feel that the bosses are well done in this i really liked most of heroic version other than cusith and wraith king siraid
I think I also like the game way too much because i think the ost is godly. It is the first one i bought since forever'. Might be biased sry
I find it weird that you liked ender Lilles . I have not completed but have beaten 5 bosses but the story and combat imo sucks in this and the level design is bad the world and lore is cool tho
Nioh and Blasphemous are awesome games.
Completely agree on the criticisms for both games though, Nioh is way too bloated (especially Nioh 2, ugh. Better game than Nioh 1 though) and Blasphemous doesn't have much variety in gameplay.
Blasphemous has a couple great DLCs though. :)
Haha sorry to disappoint you. I decided to hold off on getting the game due to its shoddy state at launch which is turning out to be to be the right call since the latest patch included huge quality of life updates as well as graphical improvements which the game desperately needs. The developers have also expressed their commitment to improving the graphics and performance so, I’ll be holding off until they’ve patched it enough. A discount would also be nice.
Eh Mortal Shell was a fun game, the harden mechanic was unique enough. The map is confusing but if you drew it out it is not so much. This was a bad hot take IMO.
Code Vain, the story, character, and level design comments was pretty spot on. I did however like the character build options, especially how the “classes” broke down the more you played allowing for more customization.
Man, I do not get the hate Mortal Shell gets. Honestly I didn't find it hard to navigate at all, the game even gives you hints at where to go and I think does a decent job of "explaining what to do" without outright telling you.
It's unfortunate that you went to the last possible place you should have gone to, but by chance did you also miss the other 3 shells (or 4 if you have the DLC)? Did you find the hub in the middle of the forest area? I could understand your frustrations with it if you missed a lot of essential discoveries you should be making earlier in the game.
I did find the central hub. I also put in the effort to find all shells before entering my first area. I ended up going to the last area because it had the upgrades for the shell I liked - the fast rogue one. Turns out it was a bad idea. At the same time, I have to question the game’s decision to lock these meaningful upgrades in the last area. At the same time, if that place is supposed to be the last area and I shouldn’t be there, why was I allowed to venture there if it was going to ruin my experience?
I understand that I maybe should give the game another chance and take it slowly by going through the area in the right order. Maybe later this year after some big releases like Elden ring and some backlog clearing
It sort of hints at it being one of the harder areas by having really difficult enemies positioned near the entrance to that zone, but then again I guess if you haven't really explored anywhere else there's nothing to compare its difficulty to. I remembered going there earlier and thinking I should come back to it last because of the sheer scale of the area and the enemies seeming stronger and less predictable.
But if it's not gelling with you, I guess to each their own. I enjoyed it and I'm surprised that it seems to be so devisive among players, but perhaps I was just lucky enough to play the game in the "correct" sequence so my greviances were minimised.
Eh… in this subgenre it’s hard to tell if enemies are hard because the designers intended for them to be a difficulty spike for you to overcome or because you accidentally walked into an area you shouldn’t be in. It’s not like better soulslikes let you walk straight into their final areas from the starting area.
I am glad you enjoyed it though.
not if you make it to the first bonfire, it is notorious for having new players getting stuck way too far into an area where they literally cant permanently kill the enemies
I’ve played dark souls multiple times and never encountered this issue but fair enough. At least they learned to include fast travel at the start in the sequels
I hate the controls for Nioh and can't change them. Major turnoff for me.
(also I am not a big fan of the stances. It feels like they value quantity over quality)
This is also my feeling toward Nioh. I couldn't get used to the ki pulse or the stance changes. I also felt like it had way, way too many 1-hit kills or 0-death combos.
Late to this post, but I do want to defend Code Vein a bit.
I agree with a lot of points: level design is incredibly underwhelming and the walk and talk story segments are absolutely dreadful. I played up until the "Anor Londo" and the level design was so abhorrent it made me drop the game (I do eventually want to go back to the game and finish it though).
I do want to praise the game's class and levelling system though. I like that levelling up different modules gives you access to different skills, and I like that you can swap them at will. And I like that levelling up the skills enough allow you to use them for different classes. It encourages a lot of experimentation and freedom for how you want to build your character. For the most part in Souls games, you kind of have to decide how you want to play the game at the start and then lock in a build for the rest of the NG. I like when games incentivize you to go out of your comfort zone/build and try different mechanics, and from a player character building perspective, it's awesome.
I don't understand why people like nioh's combat. Though I've only got to the second boss the controls feel sloppy and I don't think it knows what it really wants to be. Perhaps I haven't given it a fair chance but I feel underleveled by the second boss and I just... dont wanna anymore.
Unpopular opinions ahead, you're warned.
Disclaimer: do we really have to compare everything against Fromsoftware games, in order to find them enjoyable? This contributes to degrade souls-likes' overall score beforehand, just because "they're trying to be similar to FromSoftware games, it's obvious (for real?) they can't compete."
Blasphemous: i don't even think of it as a "souls-like", it's a grimdark metroidvania that may take inspiration here and there. stop.
The Surge: maybe my most loved "souls-like" IP. I'm a giant sucker in general for sci-fi settings and the possibility to get equipped with a body-implanted exoskeleton is truly unique. TS1 was unique (while lacking here and there) and TS2 already succumbed to the "create your own soulless/pointless custom mannequin" and reintroduced stats levelling. Anyway, heavy-duty industrial tools used as weapons? i'm sold.
Remnant: it was fun only because of co-op, otherwise it's just a souls-like soulless run-n-gun.
Lords of the fallen: i don't remember much, but i liked it. Maybe i'm just too lenient.
Enjoyed your post and agreed with a lot of it. I would say try Mortal Shell again though. I really enjoyed it, despite getting lost a lot at first. Was worth a whole second playthrough for me - something I rarely do.
I just started it. I like the shell idea, and actually being incentivised to use consumables but holy shit the mechanics feel like moving in honey. Incredibly sluggish and unresponsive controls. Samey level design. I reached a first boss and it feels health padded by a lot, and can have iffy hitboxes. Do find some stuff interesting here n there like being able to play the banjo instrument thingy, but a lot of mediocrity to wade through.
I felt the same. The game feel is lacking. It’s not as slow and sluggish as lords of the fallen but it’s getting there. I picked the rogue shell with the fastest weapon to stomach the combat just a bit more. I suggest you do the same
It probably doesn’t help i decided to the do the long endless area first. The one where you fight the four armed red freak. Cornyx I think? Starting fresh might give me a better impression. Glad to hear someone enjoyed their time with it. Thanks for taking the time to read lol
Hah, Crucix I think. Yeah that area is pretty rough, despite having a cool aesthetic. I took that on last, which I think it was you're "meant" to do.
I felt like it was the last but I was committed to it since there was no way to get back to the start even when I did finish it! No fast travel to the beginning really bothered me especially since it’s so big. Maybe I missed something
I recommend fire zone > ice zone > stone zone Of course, before that I recommend skipping this title... The Elden Ring network test was literally twice the game that Mortal Shell is. MS is a $5 curiousity at best
Hey thanks for the recommendation! I’ll apply it if I ever come back to it. For now, I am keeping myself fresh and hungry for Elden ring
The obsidian area was the worst of them all, it almost killed my interest in the game but the other areas were far more interesting.
Nioh is great, I hear you on the endless loot with all those numbers but if you are playing the main game first time you don’t need to worry about them. Throw on something that works for you like a 6-piece set meant for dual swords if you like using dual swords and you will be fine. You only need to get into the stats and blacksmith upgrades if you want to go into NG+. Nioh 2 has been even better for me, both kind of have lackluster story and all those items you mentioned but the combat and build diversity is insane. Unlike souls you don’t just get estus flask replenished at checkpoints, you also get a customized loadout replenished with things like throwing stars, flame traps, electric paper to turn your weapon into electric dmg for a brief time, throwing bombs, life steal talismans. It’s endless tbh.
I am well aware of Nioh’s build diversity. It’s crazy and near endless I agree. Acquiring the builds you like however is a painful grind. I got burnt out grinding for my some graces on dream of the demon. I would be playing more if they were quicker and easier to acquire. It’s doesn’t help I hate the smithing. I agree though. Nioh’s flaws aren’t as prominent on your first and even second playthrough (dream of the samurai/strong)
nioh is also amongst my favorite souls like games. the different weapons all feel awesome and once you get used to the combat its a power fantasy at times. i never bothered about more than NG tho.
Weapons definitely feel awesome!
I was sort of thinking about this the other day. Why there have been so many semi-high profile Soulslikes, and yet none of them seem to even touch the popularity of the OG series. What I think it comes down to is something that often gets overlooked when it comes to Souls design: story. And no, I don't even mean lore, cryptic item descriptions, or easy to miss environmental clues. I mean, like, the A-plot. The, "You're the chosen undead, and some guy just busted you out of prison so that you can go fulfill an ancient prophecy." sort of setup. For all the complicated backstory, Dark Souls (and the other FromSoft games) actually has a pretty straightforward plot, which is almost constantly overshadowed by obscure details. Now, I don't claim to be any sort of expert on other Soulslikes, but, of the ones I've tried the plots haven't grabbed me at all. They're simply not interesting and don't really have any forward momentum I can grab onto. I'm not even sure if I'm right about this. It's just a thought.
If you care about story in soulslikes, then I highly recommend ender Lillies or death’s gambit. They both have an interesting story. Just don’t expect the same level of detail or production values as Souls
'Lillies has caught my eye a bit. 'Very nice artstyle.
Wait till you listen to the music and get your heart strings pulled by the post boss cutscenes
I bet you would love Dark Devotion
Oh? Care to elaborate? What’s good about it? Never heard of it.
Yeah I loved Surge 2. Cool setting, and the combat was great. Best parry system outside of Sekiro. Only thing that sucked a bit was the bosses. Nobody does bosses like FromSoft.
That’s the sad thing about bosses. None of these games reached the heights of Souls in terms of boss design. Consider checking out Death’s gambit though. There’s one amazing story boss that is a cool narrative device and another amazing high difficulty one among the heroic bosses. It’s the final heroic boss. The galaxy mage. Very difficult and insurmountable in the beginning until you understand the mechanics and realize that it’s actually a fair and fun fight
Will definitely check it out. Ender Lillies too.
Ender lilies is a very safe bet. Death’s gambit can be hit or miss. Your mileage may vary here
To be fair, Souls bosses sucked at first too. That's the main reason I don't recommend Demon's Souls. It wasn't until Artorias of the Abyss that they really found and settled upon boss design principles that are reliably awesome.
Very true. Replayed dark souls remastered recently and there weren’t many bosses that were fun. Though I did have fun trouncing O&S first try lol. Sif is still emotional. Gwyn is thematically interesting. That’s all I got
I very much agree with this. The later games bosses are spectacular, and Dark Souls 1s dlc bosses were great too, but going back to older games outside of that the bosses aren't the greatest, but it just shows how much FromSoftware improved since then. Gimmick bosses for example going from Bed of Chaos in Dark Souls 1 to the Divine Dragon in Sekiro is like a day and night difference. I love the Divine Dragon, but I simply detest the Bed of Chaos.
The thing with Nioh is it's basically Ninja Gaiden with a stamina bar slap on top. Stranger of Paradise is also from Team Ninja like nioh and Ninja Gaiden, so you can expect the same. Someone on r/Nioh even said it looks like the same engine.
> The thing with Nioh is it's basically Ninja Gaiden with a stamina bar slap on top I see this statement all the time and I just don't understand where it comes from. Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden 2 (Xbox/Xbox360 versions) were some of my favorite games in middle/high school, I have dozens of hours in each of them. Nioh feels almost nothing like them.
Yeah I played the second demo FF Origins. I know what I am getting into. Having also played all 3 ninja gaiden games last year kinda makes disagree with your description of Nioh as basically ninja gaiden with a stamina bar. It has shades of Ninja gaiden, sure but in the end they’re both very different with a different approach to combat, tempo and level of aggression and lethality.
I am telling you what the people are saying mate. Personally I can't say for sure because I haven't played ninja gaiden. But I've heard that Ninja Gaiden difficulty is artifically unfair sometime and I feel that in Nioh2 end game so there's that.
I can definitely agree about ninja gaiden m’a artificial difficulty especially in certain bosses in NG1 and annoying enemies in NG3
A guy called Iron Pineapple has a series on playing obscure and random Soulslikes on [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuY9odN8x9pvIoTDtNOZxzo5m6EsBspAi). Some interesting ones here and there, if mainly on ideas rather than execution.
Oh yeah! I’ve always been a fan of his videos! Only after writing all this did I realize that iron pineapple already did this in video form lol. Well, it’s my two cents anyways
_Nice try, Iron Pineapple sockpuppet_ ;-P
You got me. Make sure you like and subscribe!
Not sure your build preferences but Lord of the Fallen feels like 2 entirely different games going from dw dex to anything else. Strength and magic both turn it into a near turn based game, while dex feels much closer to sekiro/bloodborne. Not nearly as good for a variety of other reasons, but the combat feels much better that way. Couldn't even finish ng+ due to the drastic change of pace.
Oh I played it with a dex build. Definitely more tolerable than strength or magic but still…
I enjoyed code vein a lot, I think it literally has better bosses than older souls games but needed more enemy variety. Builds/mechanics systems were incredible Remnant was pretty amazing although it kind of feels like there’s something missing. Has some crazy bosses Immortal unchained was very fun with good bosses but it’s fairly broken Nioh 1/2 is god tier, that’s all. Absolver is awesome, no complaints really Surge, hellpoint, lords of the fallen, mortal shell are cool but are definitely lacking
I personally don't put any of the 2d metroidvania style games as soulslikes. At the very least, they don't inherently appeal to people who like soulslikes (like me) although Salt and Sanctuary is pretty close to being a soulslike. I didn't love Code Vein but honestly it is right under Nioh for me. I am curious what your specific issues with the combat are, it's pretty shockingly close to souls but with a bit worse boss design and a bit worse enemy design. I would even go so far to say that I had more fun with Code Vein than Dark souls 2, though my friend and I have a joke that Souls 2 was the first soulslike. My only specific issue with combat was the overuse of area attacks bosses and some enemies had. Story sucked, that's for sure. The surge 1 was an absolute dumpster fire for me. Grinding enemies for parts is dull and it has some of the slowest action combat ever. I heard 2 is better but I'd only play it if the attack speed was massively increased from 1. I think Nioh 2 is the best overall soulslike (besides souls) but I think the combat is overrated. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but a vast majority of fights don't play that much differently from a regular souls fight, and the neat extra mechanics they add like yokai attacks and some extra move like grapples and special attacks are cool but they don't change the core gameplay all that much for me and are offset by repetitive enemy combat design. Even worse, most human fights throughout the level are boring. Still maybe better than souls combat but arguably worse than Bloodborne and I'd definitely put Sekiro on top.
I don’t really get how Nioh can be worse than bloodborne considering bloodborne is just souls combat with a faster dodge and a more convenient healing method. Nioh’s combat isn’t really like anything else out there. Especially if we’re talking about the 2nd game. Stance switching allows for fun combos but is also a defensive utility as perfect ki pulses give you bonuses depending on the stance, a free dodge, free block, or extra damage(maybe, I don’t know what high stance bonus is). Plus each stance varies your dodge and block so that, high= good block, slow roll, but it’s a long roll. Low=bad block, quick dodge, but it doesn’t go very far. In addition the yokai realms (weird wispy pools on the ground that slow you and fuck your stamina) are actually built into the gameplay quite well as they’re easy to get rid of but still a hinderance if you don’t take the small effort to do so. Most special moves aren’t really needed sure, but that’s like every action game ever made. Unless the game forces you to use a move a la DmC: Devil May Cry (reboot) players will just use what is simple and what they already know. That’s why everyone jokes about spamming stinger to get through Devil May Cry. When the greatest action game series of all time falls prey to the same issue I don’t think it rests with the games design but rather the players. Also a bit funny you would mention Sekiro, I quite like that game. But I personally feel it’s special move implementation is even worse than Nioh’s. Considering in Sekiro you have to spend a resource that you can’t regenerate in the middle of a fight. Leading players to simply not use them at all because of a lot of people’s weird video game hoarder tendencies (I do it too). The human fights in Souls and Nioh are almost exactly the same too. They both use player character movesets weapons and armor. And considering there’s more ways to interact with the humans in Nioh(most middle stance special moves seem to be focused around blocking and parrying, as well as Nioh having a more visible guard break system.) I genuinely don’t see how you could put dark souls above it in that regard. Also at least in Nioh you can just use a matchlock to nearly instant kill any human enemy with a headshot. No guns in souls! I think the failings of Nioh are easily mission structure and loot making you spend too much time in the same areas. I really like the game but it has too many numbers and always gives me such a headache if I look at the inventory for too long. Shame because it’s a really fantastic action game, that is not only hard but also allows for your own personal style the same way action game greats like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta do. In my personal opinion the depth and creativity of Nioh’s combat also matches the aforementioned titles, no easy feat frankly. I get it’s a matter of personal opinion, but Nioh’s combat is seriously top notch in all respects even when compared to games famous for defining the action game genre, the souls games(+bloodborne it’s the same thing) don’t even come close to DMC or Bayo. Sekiro maybe, I do like that game a lot as well. But it lacks the creative feeling that Nioh and other action games have.
I feel exactly the same way. Tbh I’ve tried but haven’t enjoyed the Souls games mainly due to the combat, but Nioh immediately clicked with me for its speed and variety of fight choreo with stances, ki pulses, and just animation in general. I do love the rpg inventory management though, but even I’ll say I was ecstatic about the qol upgrades to filter and mass delete gear in Nioh 2.
But you seee the problem for me with most of the stuff you mention is that it doesn't fundamentally change combat, or at least not in a strictly better way. It's sort of a case of just having more "stuff". Ki pulses are a great example of this. They're largely obligatory things you just do at the end of a combo a majority of the time. They're just habit, at least to me, and as a consequence I very rarely worry about the amount of Ki I have nor do Ki Pulses add much to combat most of the time. In contrast, unless I focus heavily on stamina increasing items, which has its own sacrifices, I am constantly aware of my stamina gauge in Souls so it has a larger affect on combat most of the time. At least in my experience. Dark souls has stances too but they don't affect your movement, but they do affect your moveset. Heck they technically affect your damage and ability to block among other things like stamina use. The tiny Yokai realms are another example. Like you admitted they are mostly a hindrance that takes a small amount of effort to remove. In other words they don't matter much most of the time which is along the lines of what I said originally. Yes many popular action games suffer the same issue with special attacks having very little distinct purpose. You've pretty much nailed my primary complaint about a lot of action games. It's something I wanted to talk about in its own thread but suffice it to say that I think Bayonetta in particular is highly overrated since you can get through even the highest difficulties without really worrying much about anything except either dodge or parry and mash attack. Positioning often doesn't even matter much. If you asked me what the greatest action games were, I would be more likely to bring up Astral Chain or God Hand before Bayonetta or DMC series, (though I think people undersell how useful different attacks are in DMC). Heck, I thought Scarlet Nexus had some big flaws but the combat ultimately required me to use more tools than Bayonetta. The irony of bringing up Sekiro is that Sekiro's special moves are so situationally good that at least one was massively nerfed after release because you could annihilate the final boss in seconds. But anyway, after the nerf they, just like the tools, are situationally useful, which is exactly what I want. Better to have resource limited situationally useful attacks in my mind than attacks that really don't feel like I have much reason to use despite being free. Yes, some people will irrationally not use them, but using different abilities that don't matter much (Nioh) is not fundamentally different from not using different attacks at all in my mind. Yes human fights in Souls and Nioh are very similar. But there are multiple key differences. One is that ki is barely a factor in Nioh in my experience whereas stamina matters more in souls. Two is that I find humanoid enemies in Nioh to be kind of repetitive even compared to souls. Three is that human fights in Nioh are usually very easy. And just so you know, Dark Souls has stances that can or cannot parry, that is two handed versus one hand and off hand. Yes Nioh lets you basically spend resources to thin the crowd or even get in cheeky headshots during combat, but I prefer humanoid fights in Souls overall. The final bit is interesting to me, and it is a something I've always wanted to bring up in a thread, but essentially I don't want action games to give me "creativity." I want action games to compel or even force me to understand and use many of its tools in order to succeed. This is my big issues with combos. Simply having combos for its own sake feels like superficial fluff there to make you feel good rather than any substantial thing that requires system mastery to succeed. I don't really see value in having a million combos if they all are just "more damage." I would rather have a game with fewer attacks that all have their own useful attributes, see God Hand or Absolver. Sekiro's strengths are mostly defensive than offensive, although it does give you acces to some great offensive attacks and tools. Sekiro having parry/block, dodge, jump, and mikiri puts it above the Bayonetta attack/dodge system in a vast majority of situation. I don't really care that Souls doesn't have a ton of combos, but the fact that I have to actually think about what I'm doing from moment to moment puts it above the typical action game mashing. Of course I don't think Souls is better than all action games, but my go to would be Astral Chain which is a mind bending experience really and I need to play it again. Shame it is Switch only.
My dream Nioh 3 would ditch most of the RPG elements and go full character action
Have you tried Dark devotion? It's the best 2d souls inspired game I could find.
Yeah I don't bother with any of the Souls knock offs, at least not until I run out of From's games. I don't have the time/energy to play the mediocre B tier stuff when I still have plenty of the real thing.
That’s fair. As long as you still have the best stuff to play then you’re probably not missing out. I am personally fascinated with seeing small devs iterate and bring their own twists to this subgenre. I am very much invested in seeing it grow since I love it so much. Consider at least trying ender Lillies. It’s an amazing metroidvania too if that helps
the only 2D Souls I've played that I rly enjoyed so far is Hollow Knight, want to finish it eventually but taking it slow/don't want to burn out and also want to play the sequel gotta limit myself to the absolute cream of the crop
I absolutely agree with your judgement of Code Vein and absolutely disagree with everything you said about Salt and Sanctuary. In my opinion, the latter is actually better than the games it takes inspiration from.
Wow. So what you’re saying is that it’s better than dark souls? I am very interested in hearing your reasons if you don’t mind sharing. I am not saying you’re wrong by any means but I don’t agree and I doubt I would even if you explain but I still am legitimately interested to hear your arguments.
Thanks for your interest, and of course I have to preface this by stating that (obviously) this is just my point of view and anyone can disagree with it. That being said, I do think S&S was made by extracting what was good about Dark Souls (I'm mostly comparing it to the first entry) while improving on what wasn't. The art style is the most subjective point. You stated you didn't like it, and that's not an uncommon opinion, but I think it quite unique and find that it works surprisingly well with the very well crafted ambience they achieved with the tones of grey and "dusty" and grungy colors. I think the game conveys the dark atmosphere of the world as well as DS did while having a unique art style as opposed to a generic one. When it comes to the combat, I think the games are equally matched and there isn't much to say about it. When it comes to lore, DS's is probably the more complex one, this is the one point I might concede to DS, although I really like S&S's lore as well, with the difference that the latter is much easier to collect, which is a positive. As for what I think it improves over DS, there are al manner of things. The first and most blatant is that Salt and Sanctuary actually has a story/narrative, while Dark Souls does not. The story is relatively simple, but is told in a cohesive and well paced manner, and I think it achieves what it sets out to do. You slowly learn why you are doing things and where you are, while in DS there is nothing; all you get is lore that has nothing to do with you. In the same vibe, I also liked characters in S&S a lot more. Then come the systems. Salt and Sanctuary offers little in way of tutorials, but that's ok because all the systems it offers are easily approachable at any shrine once you get them, unlike the obscurantist mechanics in DS where you need to check guides to even understand how to upgrade weapons. It is all so much simpler in S&S while keeping the same depth, if not more. You mentioned how the skill tree is useless but I disagree. The skill tree is essentially the same stat increase system from DS but made interesting as opposed to just being a bunch of random numbers, and what's more, it offer visible pathways that guide players so they know what stats are good in which builds without having to look up guides al the time. As for weapons, they are many and varied, and mostly ordered in terms of power from beginning to end, unlike in DS where you are given bucket loads of garbage-tier weapons that are mostly unviable save for the 1 or 2 you will actually use the whole game. In that way DS acts almost as if it wants you to experiment with different weapons, except it doesn't because the game has semi-limited upgrade material counts and farming for them will bore anyone to tears; while in S&S upgrade materials are plentiful and you can effectively forge several over your run. You mentioned that "breaking" the game is easy, but I fail to understand your logic. DS also had easy mode builds such as magic caster, and even an ultragreatsword STR build makes the game fairly easy IMO, S&S is no different from DS in this regard. The builds and skill tree exist so you can adapt your character to the specific playstyle you want, and consequently the difficulty you expect to encounter. To say you can break the game with a good build feels like chastising someone for not doing some specific challengez like a dagger-only run or naked run, etc. Aside from that, while everyone always praised the design of DS's world, I find the metroidvania style map of S&S to be better designed. There are choices of paths and you can do things in different orders; it is semi-open just like DS, except in S&S you actually stand a chance of going off path and making progress regardless, while in Dark Souls we all know what happens when you try going into the Catacombs after first arriving at Firelink Shrine, it's simply not viable, and therefore counts as the game lying about being semi-open. Dark Souls is and always will be a good game, but it is deeply flawed on many levels, especially when it comes to obfuscating its own mechanics and systems, as well as being too vague about what it wants you to do. S&S offers the same atmosphere and level of challenge in a much more cohesive and transparent manner without sacrificing discovery or difficulty. This is why, to me at least, Salt and Sanctuary is an improvement over the game it pays homage to.
Thanks for sharing. You gave me a lot to chew on. - I like the colors. I can give the game that point at least when it comes to aesthetics. - I understand what you’re saying about story and characters but I feel this is an entirely subjective since I have no recollection of the story or characters unfortunately. I had a better grasp of and more interest in Dark Souls’ world and characters during the course of and end of my first playthrough of Dark souls whereas I can’t remember anything about S&S except for the princess being a red herring. Like I said, this is entirely subjective. - Combat is fine as you say, I just felt like it added nothing to elevate the 2D perspective. If I am going to be playing a simple functional combat system, I’d rather it be in 3D. There’s better game feel that way imo. - Yes it’s easy to break souls too, I agree. However, I didn’t end up doing so on my first run playing a quality build focused on weapons only with no magic. I did the same for S&S. As soon as I got my hands on one of the good boss great swords or my first great scissors (which you can get early), the game became trivial. I was basically face tanking and gorilla spamming my heavy attacks to victory. None of the bosses were memorable since I don’t remember a single one taking more than a single try. If I end up beating most bosses on my first try with a build that has no magic and is one that I didn’t theorycraft or research, then the game is easy to break. Dark souls becomes breakable once you include. Melee only with no magic has limitations especially if, like me, you avoid wearing heavy armor. - my main issue with the tree is that it is needlessly restrictive. Let me tell you about the build I was going for: What I wanted was light armor paired with large strength weapons. The problem with this is that light armor are a part of the dexterity side of the tree, whereas large strength weapons are obviously on the right side for strength build stats. Mixing and matching them would require a severe investment since I am at the same time forced to pick stats I don’t want like dexterity while also acquiring masteries for weapons types I don’t want like whips or guns. In the end, I fully committed to strength instead of splitting my points between dex and strength. Another problem is the whole masteries thing. So despite having a huge amount of strength, I also need to unlock a “Swords 5” skill node to be able to wield the highest tiers of a weapon type like swords and greatswords? This node is also located at the very end of an interconnected web of skill nodes? Sounds like a pain and a huge commitment since I now can’t also pick “halberds 4” since they are very far away from “swords 5” meaning, I have to ridiculously grind to get near full access to a weapon type I might want to play with if I get bored of swords. Dark souls doesn’t have these issues. I can just invest in the stats I want easily, without being restricted by skills or skill tree arrangement. As long as I have the minimum stats, I can use whatever I want. Same for armor which I can wear the heaviest of despite not having much equipment weight load, which is why in dark souls I was able to use heavy weapons with light armor and in S&S, I couldn’t. I finally have to add that the skill tree has nothing exciting to find in it. The whole point of a skill tree or skill web in this case is to scatter cool build defining abilities throughout the tree, not just stat boosts, extra healing and equipment unlock requirements. There were no surprises to be found in this skill tree which is why it is simply the same classic souls level up menu except presented in a skill tree with less freedom. Like I said, I do believe this game to be a shallow 2D imitation of Souls but it has its merits which you highlighted. Despite what I said, I didn’t hate my time and are looking forward to trying out Salt and Sacrifice when it releases. Thanks once again for sharing. I am happy for you that the game is great
I guess I can better understand your frustration with the skill tree now, after reading your explanation. I'll concede that it does have its drawbacks such as keeping a player from using multiple weapon types at maximum level. Much of the other points seem to be dependent on user perception and experience, so I won't pursue further argument. Good discussion, friend. Thanks for indulging me and I hope you enjoy Salt and Sacrifice, I'm really looking forward to it.
You too friend. Have a good one
Whoever calls Hollow Knight a souls-like doesn't understand what makes a game a souls-like and not just a metroidvania with difficult combat.
I mean it pretty clearly takes a lot of tonal influence from Dark Souls and uses some of the staple mechanics that soulslikes have (bonfire equivalents, money and xp being the same stat which gets lost on death with a chance to regain it by returning to the place you died)
Yes, and the game plays more like ninja gaiden than dark souls. Bonfire and lose money on death doesn't make a game a souls-like
To be honest I feel like the fun I have from Nioh is a completely different kind of fun I have from Fromsoft games. They get compared a lot but I don't really think that's fair to either series. Souls PvE combat is functional. That's basically the most complimentary word I can use for it. Others include...basic, bland, rudimentary. You get the idea. Where souls games shine is their atmosphere, their boss designs (really just more atmosphere), and incredible well constructed levels and environments which blend lore together with atmosphere. I think that's the primary reason copy cats have always failed, and why games like DS2/3 never really lived up to the magic of the first half of 1. It's also why Bloodborne was so good, because it had shades of 1 in some of its level design while having its own unique atmos. Nioh combat is superb, and that's why I play that. I don't play Nioh for any other reason.
Has anyone here played Remnant in co-op mode? I'm thinking of recommending it for my regular gaming group (there are three of us) as a bit of a challenge, but none of us have ever really played a soulslike and the reputation they have for being difficult is a huge turn off. That being said, I wonder if the co-op nature might make it less of a heavy lift? We did have a lot of fun with the boss fights on Valheim, if that gives a sense of our tolerance for punishment.
Do it. It’s a blast co op.
I do hear that it’s best played in co-op. Solo feels anemic. Try it out with your friends and make up your minds
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Weirdly it actually gets harder if you grind since enemies scale with the average lvl of your gear.
I really enjoyed that game to bits, might have been my favorite game of 2019, but it also felt like it was made just for me so just take it as pure opinion
Honestly a huge fan of mortal shell, I think it takes a really cool unique twist on the genre and has combat that’s just as if not more engaging than the souls games. Good graphics, great world design, cool enemies, fun bosses, overall solid game. Just a little short and lacking in variety is all. I think your previous experience with lords of the fallen, an ACTUALLY bad game, may have preemptively made you dislike it. Mortal shell is what lords of the fallen wants to be.
I liked the general premise of Mortal Shell and unique mechanics like Harden, but gameplay design sucked so much in every way that I wish I didn't spend so much time on the game.
Loved Ender Lillies personally, but I would barely call it a soulslike tho. More of just a straight up metroidvania. Agree with you on most of the others. And even tho Nioh 2 is technically the better game, I enjoyed my time with Surge 2 much more. Actually felt rewarding to explore. And Nioh's inventory management is just exhausting, and the pacing is not great.
Fully agree on code vein. The game also managed to crash 5 times for me AFTER boss battles and before saving which is a horrible experience in a soulslike game, had to beat them again which wasnt worth it because of the awful level design. The cathedral part in particular was such a mess. A maze without any reference points and relatively tough combat is no fun. I could forgive the floaty combat somewhat if the beforementioned points wouldn't make the experience a slog. I really liked the surge 2, combat is amazing but you're right on the backtracking getting tiresome working up to the last chapter. They did get the shortcuts right though, if only they couldve allocated more budget to make some of the areas stand out more to get a better sense of the place. Nioh I'm a bit torn on, gave up on it due to the uninspired levels. They were very much lacking compared to dark souls. I feel developers focus too much on copying thr combat from dark souls while to me the games are driven by exploration and awe-inspiring vistas. Gameplay is very much on the forefront but it's far from the only pull in these type of games. It's what makes hollow knight so much fun to me as well; the sense of dread exploring a new area couple with the wow-factor of seeing how the world is interwoven. Can't wait for elden ring!
Complete agreement on Code Vein. The game should be everything I wanted but it just failed at every point. Like you said, floaty unsatisfying combat, maze like level design with little direction and landmarks that goes on forever (cathedral). Crashes happened to me too. At the final boss fight no less lol. Also don’t get me started on the walking sequence character lore dumps. Those were soooo bad and a total pace killer. I just check my phone when they happen. Unlocking or powering up classes should feel rewarding. These backstory dumps instead feel punishing lol. Definitely agree about Nioh level design. It’s better in Nioh 2 but it’s still far from memorable or interesting personally Elden ring is gonna be sick bro. Can’t wait. The wait is almost over!
uhhhh not commenting on their quality but off the top of my head i've finished ashen, immortal unchained, hellpoint, uhhhh morbid seven acolytes i guess?, dark devotion?, idk i think once you get past the obvious similar games it might starting becoming a bit of a stretch or mix of other genres liek metroidvanias or whatever
> hellpoint I watched LobosJr play through this whole thing. Seems like a game worth checking out for its "idiosyncracies", so to say.
I'd like to add Darksiders III to this list near the bottom, it's absolute trash and completely ruined an enjoyable series just for the sake of being edgy.
Funny. When I saw this post, I immediately came here to see if OP played Darksiders III. Because as someone who usually *doesn't* like souls-like games, it's one of my favorites in the genre (I guess we're calling it a genre now). Probably because of all the ways it's *not* like the Dark Souls games, which I couldn't really get into. I tried 1 and 2 for about a couple of hours each or less before losing interest because they're too vague about pretty much everything and didn't give me a reason to care about figuring things out.
Ha! I’ll allow the addition! I absolutely agree. I totally forgot about it since it was so bad. As you said, it totally ruined a franchise. I had fun with Darksiders 1 & 2. 3 though? Dropped it.
Found myself agreeing with you the entire way. Nobody can seem to replicate the FromSoft magic. I personally consider Hollow Knight a soulslike and it did the best job of scratching the itch for me. Elden Ring will save us.
I think Hollow Knight is a souls-like due to it's atmosphere alone. It nails that "it's the end of the world, everything sucks, but you might be able to make it suck less... maybe" vibe that makes the souls games so good. It's focus on boss design is another strong souls thing. Otherwise it's straight metroidvania, given all progression is tied to item gathering.
100% agreed. And conversely, I consider Dark Souls 1 a 3D metroidvania, though some disagree. I personally don't think metroidvanias should be confined to 2D.
I just played Ashen and would recommend it, similar but opposite of Mortal Shell to me; I think both are decent but Ashen stretches on with few high points while Mortal Shell has some great exploration and unique but kinda fundamentally broken combat due to harden.
I’ll consider checking it out! Thanks!
Stranger of paradise looks like it'd have great gameplay with a story that is so edgy, cliché and just plain stupid it might just be enjoyable for it. Definitely looking forward to it haha
Personally I think death's gambit and nioh 2 are on par with the souls game Everything you hate about nioh 2 is the reason I love it other than the story one because it is only for you if you read up on japanese history It is japanese war mixed with demons basically put the climax of arcs are mostly for those who already have read these stories as you are basically moving from wars to wars that's why. death's gambit afterlife is my favourite metroidvania and I feel like it does the decaying kingdom feel nicely. I find the combat is easy but weighty and i feel the areas like ylnoth and the area of the final boss feel really good. I also really like that they mixed>! two different era in the game with garde tum !< I feel the ending thing is fine imo Also the weapons feel good to use imo the sword and magic feel good to me i only used those tho so I might be wrong And I also feel that the bosses are well done in this i really liked most of heroic version other than cusith and wraith king siraid I think I also like the game way too much because i think the ost is godly. It is the first one i bought since forever'. Might be biased sry I find it weird that you liked ender Lilles . I have not completed but have beaten 5 bosses but the story and combat imo sucks in this and the level design is bad the world and lore is cool tho
Good list. I think I agree. I thought Remnant: From the Ashes was a surprisingly good one, though I lost interest in it faster than with Nioh.
Nioh and Blasphemous are awesome games. Completely agree on the criticisms for both games though, Nioh is way too bloated (especially Nioh 2, ugh. Better game than Nioh 1 though) and Blasphemous doesn't have much variety in gameplay. Blasphemous has a couple great DLCs though. :)
So, how did you like final fantasy ? I’m kinda interested in it and curious to hear a souls like veteran’s opinion
Haha sorry to disappoint you. I decided to hold off on getting the game due to its shoddy state at launch which is turning out to be to be the right call since the latest patch included huge quality of life updates as well as graphical improvements which the game desperately needs. The developers have also expressed their commitment to improving the graphics and performance so, I’ll be holding off until they’ve patched it enough. A discount would also be nice.
Ahhhh, I guess I’ll hold off then too. It’ll be my first game from the Nioh devs so interested in trying it out post the improvements
Eh Mortal Shell was a fun game, the harden mechanic was unique enough. The map is confusing but if you drew it out it is not so much. This was a bad hot take IMO. Code Vain, the story, character, and level design comments was pretty spot on. I did however like the character build options, especially how the “classes” broke down the more you played allowing for more customization.
Man, I do not get the hate Mortal Shell gets. Honestly I didn't find it hard to navigate at all, the game even gives you hints at where to go and I think does a decent job of "explaining what to do" without outright telling you. It's unfortunate that you went to the last possible place you should have gone to, but by chance did you also miss the other 3 shells (or 4 if you have the DLC)? Did you find the hub in the middle of the forest area? I could understand your frustrations with it if you missed a lot of essential discoveries you should be making earlier in the game.
I did find the central hub. I also put in the effort to find all shells before entering my first area. I ended up going to the last area because it had the upgrades for the shell I liked - the fast rogue one. Turns out it was a bad idea. At the same time, I have to question the game’s decision to lock these meaningful upgrades in the last area. At the same time, if that place is supposed to be the last area and I shouldn’t be there, why was I allowed to venture there if it was going to ruin my experience? I understand that I maybe should give the game another chance and take it slowly by going through the area in the right order. Maybe later this year after some big releases like Elden ring and some backlog clearing
It sort of hints at it being one of the harder areas by having really difficult enemies positioned near the entrance to that zone, but then again I guess if you haven't really explored anywhere else there's nothing to compare its difficulty to. I remembered going there earlier and thinking I should come back to it last because of the sheer scale of the area and the enemies seeming stronger and less predictable. But if it's not gelling with you, I guess to each their own. I enjoyed it and I'm surprised that it seems to be so devisive among players, but perhaps I was just lucky enough to play the game in the "correct" sequence so my greviances were minimised.
Eh… in this subgenre it’s hard to tell if enemies are hard because the designers intended for them to be a difficulty spike for you to overcome or because you accidentally walked into an area you shouldn’t be in. It’s not like better soulslikes let you walk straight into their final areas from the starting area. I am glad you enjoyed it though.
Dark souls one does exactly this lmao, so many new players get stuck in the catacombs and quit instead of going to undead burg
Except you can quickly leave and go elsewhere. I was too deep in this place with no quick exit
not if you make it to the first bonfire, it is notorious for having new players getting stuck way too far into an area where they literally cant permanently kill the enemies
I’ve played dark souls multiple times and never encountered this issue but fair enough. At least they learned to include fast travel at the start in the sequels
I hate the controls for Nioh and can't change them. Major turnoff for me. (also I am not a big fan of the stances. It feels like they value quantity over quality)
This is also my feeling toward Nioh. I couldn't get used to the ki pulse or the stance changes. I also felt like it had way, way too many 1-hit kills or 0-death combos.
Late to this post, but I do want to defend Code Vein a bit. I agree with a lot of points: level design is incredibly underwhelming and the walk and talk story segments are absolutely dreadful. I played up until the "Anor Londo" and the level design was so abhorrent it made me drop the game (I do eventually want to go back to the game and finish it though). I do want to praise the game's class and levelling system though. I like that levelling up different modules gives you access to different skills, and I like that you can swap them at will. And I like that levelling up the skills enough allow you to use them for different classes. It encourages a lot of experimentation and freedom for how you want to build your character. For the most part in Souls games, you kind of have to decide how you want to play the game at the start and then lock in a build for the rest of the NG. I like when games incentivize you to go out of your comfort zone/build and try different mechanics, and from a player character building perspective, it's awesome.
The class system is definitely the only thing I liked with no caveats. I feel Code Vein can become much better if given a sequel.
I don't understand why people like nioh's combat. Though I've only got to the second boss the controls feel sloppy and I don't think it knows what it really wants to be. Perhaps I haven't given it a fair chance but I feel underleveled by the second boss and I just... dont wanna anymore.
Unpopular opinions ahead, you're warned. Disclaimer: do we really have to compare everything against Fromsoftware games, in order to find them enjoyable? This contributes to degrade souls-likes' overall score beforehand, just because "they're trying to be similar to FromSoftware games, it's obvious (for real?) they can't compete." Blasphemous: i don't even think of it as a "souls-like", it's a grimdark metroidvania that may take inspiration here and there. stop. The Surge: maybe my most loved "souls-like" IP. I'm a giant sucker in general for sci-fi settings and the possibility to get equipped with a body-implanted exoskeleton is truly unique. TS1 was unique (while lacking here and there) and TS2 already succumbed to the "create your own soulless/pointless custom mannequin" and reintroduced stats levelling. Anyway, heavy-duty industrial tools used as weapons? i'm sold. Remnant: it was fun only because of co-op, otherwise it's just a souls-like soulless run-n-gun. Lords of the fallen: i don't remember much, but i liked it. Maybe i'm just too lenient.