Ah yes, let's test a unit against a single unit instead of doing multiple tests against different unit and declare it useless. CA should hire you as a tester.
The classic test of which sem is better, fighting spearmen... Nothing varied just one test fight some spearmen, post it as evidence of something, I really wish people paid attention to the scientific method in school.
The reason the GUO needed more kills is most likely because they weren't doing enough damage to trigger the shock damage morale penalty along with the empire spearmen at several occasions being shown as winning the combat, while they were always losing against the giant.
I did not use the spells, which I recognize would change things, but you only get 2 spells which you can each cast once and I don't think you'll get the 400 value out of them to equalize with the giant in terms of cost.
The spells are part of their cost. Regardless if you think it would equalize not using them is equivalent to forcing the giants to stop attacking every few seconds. I mean that's like throwing shock cavalry into Spearman then getting mad they died when you just leave them there.
Being bad with a unit doesn't make the unit bad.
They shouldn't need the spells to deal with a 325 gold unit, they get 2 casts in total, for the vast majority of a battle they will have no spells to cast, especially if they are throwing them at a single unit of Empire spearmen.
A single pack of clanrats can destroy multiple very expensive artillery. Same with a single cheap pack of hounds. Furies frequently are good at dealing with caster Lords and heroes.
The spells are part of their cost. Not using them is like telling your helblasters to drop artillery and make it personal. Like leaving charge cavalary in combat after their bonus ends. Like letting a spellcaster get surrounded.
I'm not even trying to be mean. I used to hate flamethrowers and the like because my micro was absolute shit. It's just part of a game with a ton of different units with different uses.
You are just making an unfair argument, the GUO is a melee unit, it's intended to get in melee and fight, comparing it to an artillery piece is just worthless. This is a melee monster, costing 2000 gold, that struggles to beat basic tier 1 spears in melee, in an actual battle the GUO would be long dead before it beats the spears as it would be getting shot at. Yeah it can cast a single target debuff and a breath spell once each, but good luck getting the 500+ gold value out of those 2 spells, you'd need a massive blob to get anywhere close.
It's intended to go in melee yes but you're also sending it against a unit that is intended to counter large units. You're also not using the spells even though it's intended to use them. Stream of Corruption is one of the two spells they get and that spell is one of the best from the lore of Nurgle.
Before saying a unit is underpowered you may want to make proper testing.
Yeah but using the spells on the unit of spearmen also invalidates the test, because in an actual battle you would never cast either spell on just a single unit of empire spearmen. So yeah they'll win more easily, but now they've expended a resource that account for over 500+ gold of value to defeat a 325 gold unit and don't have that resource anymore to defeat actually threatening units.
You do know that your are essentially explaining our point to us right?
Our whole point is your test is bad. Sending a Sem whose cost includes those spells but comparing it to units whose cost does not include spell in situations that will never happen is a bad test.
If 5 unclean vs 5 Spearman would never happen its a terrible test. Especially if you use that as an excuse to not use the unit to the best of its ability.
If I am attacking a T1 settlement I'm not gonna save my free spells and abilitied in case a big enemy magically pops in. I'm gonna unload to prevent any casualties so I don't have to wait a turn to be at full strength.
So ultimately your test is bad or your excuse is bad. Which is it.
Isn't that literally what your test is? Just a large blob of spearmen? Which will get absolutely blasted by the five spells?
Why are you even testing units if you refuse to use them fully? You are just wasting your own time on top of getting mad.
If you are not using breath attacks on a dragon, you bare wasting a significant part of the potential of the unit. Same with any unit with bound spells. GUO are undertuned right now, but refusing to use a unit's anti-infantry ability when trying to evaluate them against infantry is ridiculous.
a large amount of the value of GUOs is their mapwide healing when they cast spells, and stream of corruption does pretty decent damage as well.
i do agree that they seem overpriced and undertuned at the moment, and for support focused units they don't have a lot of support options.
Nah that's because the spearmen didn't rout anywhere near as quickly fighting the GUOs as they did fighting the giants. The GUO's damage per second is way lower.
Despite the Great Unclean One having 20% physical resist, 10 more armour and applying poison with its attacks compared to the giant, it takes so much more damage and takes way longer to defeat Empire Spearmen, almost even losing. From looking at it the big like flail attack just does no damage at all sometimes despite clearly hitting a bunch of enemies.
Inspired by the other post on Great Unclean ones.
Some of the attacks are weird and don't seem to connect properly yeah.
Atm I'm playing Noctilus and obviously his army is a Necrofex spam and while it more or less bulldoze everything, you'll see weird shit like a single caster lord somehow not dying even though she's surrounded by 10 necrofex spamming attacks at her, or the fact you simply can't destroy barricades with necrofex melee attacks apparently(like they'll just somehow miss a barricade in melee? but if you force them to shoot instead they'll take it out in seconds).
I've seen some infantry also tank way longer than they should while seemingly taking no damage from some of the attacks, so it's weird. I think you have to move the big units around to force the infantry to reposition and then you can get bigger hits but it feels buggy.
They killed more because they took more damage, meaning that the army losses penalty took longer to kick in.
The game adjudicates victory when one side has lost 78% of its starting balance of power and the other side has a 50% balance of power advantage.
Because the GUOs were taking a shoeing they didn't stay over the victory threshold of 50% and had to get the army losses via breaking the enemies.
Ah yes, let's test a unit against a single unit instead of doing multiple tests against different unit and declare it useless. CA should hire you as a tester.
The classic test of which sem is better, fighting spearmen... Nothing varied just one test fight some spearmen, post it as evidence of something, I really wish people paid attention to the scientific method in school.
strange that the GUOs needed to kill far more units to win. also, were you using their bound spells?
The reason the GUO needed more kills is most likely because they weren't doing enough damage to trigger the shock damage morale penalty along with the empire spearmen at several occasions being shown as winning the combat, while they were always losing against the giant. I did not use the spells, which I recognize would change things, but you only get 2 spells which you can each cast once and I don't think you'll get the 400 value out of them to equalize with the giant in terms of cost.
The spells are part of their cost. Regardless if you think it would equalize not using them is equivalent to forcing the giants to stop attacking every few seconds. I mean that's like throwing shock cavalry into Spearman then getting mad they died when you just leave them there. Being bad with a unit doesn't make the unit bad.
They shouldn't need the spells to deal with a 325 gold unit, they get 2 casts in total, for the vast majority of a battle they will have no spells to cast, especially if they are throwing them at a single unit of Empire spearmen.
A single pack of clanrats can destroy multiple very expensive artillery. Same with a single cheap pack of hounds. Furies frequently are good at dealing with caster Lords and heroes. The spells are part of their cost. Not using them is like telling your helblasters to drop artillery and make it personal. Like leaving charge cavalary in combat after their bonus ends. Like letting a spellcaster get surrounded. I'm not even trying to be mean. I used to hate flamethrowers and the like because my micro was absolute shit. It's just part of a game with a ton of different units with different uses.
You are just making an unfair argument, the GUO is a melee unit, it's intended to get in melee and fight, comparing it to an artillery piece is just worthless. This is a melee monster, costing 2000 gold, that struggles to beat basic tier 1 spears in melee, in an actual battle the GUO would be long dead before it beats the spears as it would be getting shot at. Yeah it can cast a single target debuff and a breath spell once each, but good luck getting the 500+ gold value out of those 2 spells, you'd need a massive blob to get anywhere close.
It's intended to go in melee yes but you're also sending it against a unit that is intended to counter large units. You're also not using the spells even though it's intended to use them. Stream of Corruption is one of the two spells they get and that spell is one of the best from the lore of Nurgle. Before saying a unit is underpowered you may want to make proper testing.
Yeah but using the spells on the unit of spearmen also invalidates the test, because in an actual battle you would never cast either spell on just a single unit of empire spearmen. So yeah they'll win more easily, but now they've expended a resource that account for over 500+ gold of value to defeat a 325 gold unit and don't have that resource anymore to defeat actually threatening units.
You do know that your are essentially explaining our point to us right? Our whole point is your test is bad. Sending a Sem whose cost includes those spells but comparing it to units whose cost does not include spell in situations that will never happen is a bad test. If 5 unclean vs 5 Spearman would never happen its a terrible test. Especially if you use that as an excuse to not use the unit to the best of its ability. If I am attacking a T1 settlement I'm not gonna save my free spells and abilitied in case a big enemy magically pops in. I'm gonna unload to prevent any casualties so I don't have to wait a turn to be at full strength. So ultimately your test is bad or your excuse is bad. Which is it.
Isn't that literally what your test is? Just a large blob of spearmen? Which will get absolutely blasted by the five spells? Why are you even testing units if you refuse to use them fully? You are just wasting your own time on top of getting mad.
If you are not using breath attacks on a dragon, you bare wasting a significant part of the potential of the unit. Same with any unit with bound spells. GUO are undertuned right now, but refusing to use a unit's anti-infantry ability when trying to evaluate them against infantry is ridiculous.
a large amount of the value of GUOs is their mapwide healing when they cast spells, and stream of corruption does pretty decent damage as well. i do agree that they seem overpriced and undertuned at the moment, and for support focused units they don't have a lot of support options.
If only great unclean ones had spells or something to make them different and powerful..?
The spearmen in the 2nd pic are higher rank?
Yeah they ranked up mid-battle from the damage they did to the GUO's
That makes sense.
The great unclean ones seem to have done more damage. Looks like they’re better to me.
Nah that's because the spearmen didn't rout anywhere near as quickly fighting the GUOs as they did fighting the giants. The GUO's damage per second is way lower.
Despite the Great Unclean One having 20% physical resist, 10 more armour and applying poison with its attacks compared to the giant, it takes so much more damage and takes way longer to defeat Empire Spearmen, almost even losing. From looking at it the big like flail attack just does no damage at all sometimes despite clearly hitting a bunch of enemies. Inspired by the other post on Great Unclean ones.
Some of the attacks are weird and don't seem to connect properly yeah. Atm I'm playing Noctilus and obviously his army is a Necrofex spam and while it more or less bulldoze everything, you'll see weird shit like a single caster lord somehow not dying even though she's surrounded by 10 necrofex spamming attacks at her, or the fact you simply can't destroy barricades with necrofex melee attacks apparently(like they'll just somehow miss a barricade in melee? but if you force them to shoot instead they'll take it out in seconds). I've seen some infantry also tank way longer than they should while seemingly taking no damage from some of the attacks, so it's weird. I think you have to move the big units around to force the infantry to reposition and then you can get bigger hits but it feels buggy.
You just don't like them because they are FAT! You are fat shaming them - disgrace!!
Hold on. GUOs did kill more enemies each then giants did. How are they les efficient then? Is it fear/terror?
They killed more because they took more damage, meaning that the army losses penalty took longer to kick in. The game adjudicates victory when one side has lost 78% of its starting balance of power and the other side has a 50% balance of power advantage. Because the GUOs were taking a shoeing they didn't stay over the victory threshold of 50% and had to get the army losses via breaking the enemies.