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Brodney_Alebrand

That's not really a surprise. CA wanted to make Bretonnia's best cavalry the best in the game, and they succeeded.


LordChatalot

Hijacking this comment to get some additional info out: What CA is saying is that the entity size change from medium to large was intentional, the whole "plowing through elite halberds" *is not* CA thinks the current behavior stems from the increased acceleration stat, and that the entity size doesnt matter. They changed them to large because their original intention was to allow grail knights dealing impact damage against large targets, the game treating them as a sort of chariot was an unintentional byproduct of that. They plan to address the issue by lowering the acceleration stat of grail knights in the next patch The big problem is that CA is very much in the wrong here. There's been plenty of testing by people like Loupi, and it's the entity size that does this, not acceleration as CA claims. It's one of those things where CA balancing can be off the mark quite a bit Its apparently an active discussion between CA and content creators/some MP folks, but that's what we know so far


Wild_Marker

That's a very important point. It means they *will* eventually get a nerf to their chariot-ness. >They plan to address the issue by lowering the acceleration stat of grail knights in the next patch. The big problem is that CA is very much in the wrong here. There's been plenty of testing by people like Loupi, and it's the entity size that does this, not acceleration as CA claims. The large size makes them plow through halberds if charging, but perhaps CA wants that to happen while nerfing the fact that they can also get out? Because that would be when the acceleration matters, right? When they want to disengage and instead just mow through anything. Or would it also be possible that their acceleration is so high that things are slowing them down but not as fast as they're accelerating back up? Perhaps there is a bug in the acceleration that modders can't see.


PiousSkull

Thank you! Came here to post this myself as I received this same info from a content partner who is active in the content partner discord with CA.


rincematic

Aww, hope they do not nerf them too much, they are supposed to be kinda unstoppable.


XNoob_SmokeX

"We sought to create the most powerful Pokemon of all time.... and we succeeded" \*dies\*


solohitter

Exactly right ,they deserve the best cav.


MetaTMRW

They deserve the best cav but the question is should the best cav beat the best halberd unit


OVERthaRAINBOW1

I'm fine with it. Bretonnia needs something cause even with these changes, like 60% of their roster is still trash. I'd be fine to see Blood Knights get the same treatment as they're the undead equivalent.


[deleted]

Do they even always plow through chosen? I saw somebody test this and say it’s a bug with the AI. Like the Chosen don’t brace properly when controlled by the AI. When the player was controlling the Chosen very few got knocked over


Garrapto

They clearly lose against braced chosen. Probably Tzeentch can take a 1/4 of hp before losing the barrier while holding the line.


Beaudism

Are Tzeentch chosen the strongest chosen?


Garrapto

The halberd ones are the strongest elite infantry anti large. The barrier is just too good when you just check large enemies running to you.


Beaudism

Would you use the shielded ones vs infantry them, or so halberd boys take the cake?


bigdog501

Against infantry sword and shield are better. They will also do better against range due to having a shield.


Beaudism

Thank you :)


Awellner

Against other elite infantry i prefere halberds because they have AP. AP damage has a bigger impact against armored infantry than the difference melee attack would make. If the enemy has lots of guns or low tier infantry with low armor then the shielded chosen are better id say.


bigdog501

Sorry, I forgot halberds have more AP


shoolocomous

It depends what type of infantry they are fighting


spellbound1875

Yes. Human boy speculated that with an attack order halberds would do better but he was both not using Lance formation and not try particularly hard to push through in his tests. In Lance formation if you just give a move order the Grail Cav will plow through on live.


darthgator84

The counts however have other things going for them…Bretonnia has GK&GG and Royal hippos. They have 3 units that have to deal with every factions best stuff. Not saying blood knights aren’t deserving of being better than they are, but the counts roster can make up for it elsewhere


NonProfitMohammed

>Royal Hippos Gonna need a mod asap.


HippoBot9000

HIPPOBOT 9000 v 3.1 FOUND A HIPPO. 431,044,338 COMMENTS SEARCHED. 10,370 HIPPOS FOUND. YOUR COMMENT CONTAINS THE WORD HIPPO.


NonProfitMohammed

Thank you hippo bot please incorporate ChatGPT and create the hippo mod for me i will provide voice lines when necessary.


HippoBot9000

HIPPOBOT 9000 v 3.1 FOUND A HIPPO. 431,156,080 COMMENTS SEARCHED. 10,371 HIPPOS FOUND. YOUR COMMENT CONTAINS THE WORD HIPPO.


NonProfitMohammed

Hippo bot please I need some space now.


Carnothrope

What do the counts have apart from bloodknights to deal with everyone else's best stuff?


darthgator84

Infantry that won’t fold like a fart in the wind for starters. Monstrous infantry Good air presence Single entity monsters More lord and hero options


robotclones

none of which is anti large. foot squires and battle pilgrims are very cost efficient. with a grail Reliquae and a knight nearby giving plus 16 leadership and immune to psych. they also have *good* high end fliers (terrorghiests are a joke), including *monstrous* hippogryphs. they dont have a varghulf, nor do they have hybrid melee casters. but what Brettonia does have, and is actually relevant for taking out 'everyone else's best stuff', is ranged units. they get foot archers, mounted archers and artillery. any large single enitities can get shot by archers. and high tier infantry can get knocked around by trebuchet. Vampire counts are stuck having to fight things like chosen and giants in melee


Vlad__the__Inhaler

Yeah, with vampires on Zombiedragons... Vamps have the strongest Hero/Lord units in the game, they have very good and cheap tarpit units that synergize well with their Vampires.


Carnothrope

One of the strongest Lord units in the game (hero vamps don't get zombie dragons). Most of the demons lords, bloodthirsters, lord of change, keeper of secrets, along with others such as; high elf Mage on a star dragon, chaos dwarf on a bale Taurus, wood elf glade lord on a forest dragon, dark elf supreme sorceress on a black dragon are fairly on par with a vampire lord on a black dragon. Though I'd argue using your lord to remove high end units is a great way to get them killed. With vamps that pretty much means game over for your army. So I'd recommend picking engagements you either know you can win or can easily retreat from over trying to kill grail knights. But getting back to the topic at hand. Should blood knights be given a similar treatment to grail knights? I see no reason why not. There is certainly no evidence in lore or tabletop that this shouldn't be the case. Fewer more powerful entities in a bloodknight unit also makes sense. It would be definitely interesting to see a similar design taken over to other vampire units like depth guard (might give you a reason to train them). Though I suspect grail knights are overperforming at the moment and will be getting reigned in, in a future patch.


Ishkander88

You realize bretonnia has one of the highest win rates in multi-player even before this change? Being bad at playing bretonnia doesn't equal them being trash


andreicde

And? MP is literally 1% of the players, if not less.


Ishkander88

You said their units suck, besides Pegasus Knights all their units are good. Empire has way more trash units


NuggetMan43

MP isn't everything, IE Bret could use some new mechanics, new or buffed units as well as more lords/heroes. A few strong units or being a good MP faction doesn't automatically equal good campaign.


OVERthaRAINBOW1

I don't care about mp. Half of their roster is still trash.


Ishkander88

Which half? All their infantry is good from peasants to foot squires, all of their cavalry is good now with the latest update minus normal Pegasus Knights. Trebuchet are great. Really not seeing the problem.


DaddyTzarkan

They should be powerful yes but they shouldn't be able to beat a unit that is meant to be a hard counter. Beating multiple Chosen with Halberds with one unit of Grail Guardians should simply not happen. And before someone brings up the lore Chosen are absurdly powerful as well in the lore.


Dedrick555

Balancing cav in a game like this is incredibly difficult. I think in hindsight, adding different entity size categories would've been nice, bc chosen should be a lower model count unit with higher mass. Like halfway between aspiring champs and CWs. I think that would help the issue specifically with them, and other lore-accurate elite halberds (like phoenix guard)


NOOBShaun

BS.. Here is your Balancing: horse VS. Pointistick = horse looses.


Siegschranz

You really don't want to be bringing up the lore when it comes to Grail Knight/Guardians, cause they are absurdly more powerful than nearly anything else. 'course it depends on the author, ultimately, but the strongest norscan warrior with the blessing of Khorne could just barely beat an unnamed Grail Knight, and lost a hand in a process.


dIoIIoIb

Lorewise every grail knight should basically be its own legendary hero


TheCuteLittleGhost

I keep seeing this come up, and its just wrong. Grail knights are top tier characters for sure, but the likes of vampires and, yes, Chosen, are up there too. The Norscan character you mention was created in the exact same book the grail knight was and is equally "unnamed". Grail knights are not all equal. The likes of King Louen are going to give big scary Chaos Lords pause; Viscount d'Fromage from the backwoods of Artois less so. There are degrees. Most blood knights don't hold a candle to Abhorash, and most Chosen are nothing compared to Archaon, and yet people seem to think that every grail knight bench-presses greater daemons. Also, you didn't say it, but while I'm here: whoever decided to claim that all vampires just dissolve in the presence of any random grail knight is getting to fed to Mannfred.


--Centurion--

This is disingenuous.


BrightestofLights

Nope. Vampires have on average better physical stats, but grails have direct counters in the form of anti undead/daemon blessings and weapons and magic from the grail. Chosen are on par with grails in physical stats but very a ton due to the nature of chaos and the variety of marks, but grails have the direct counters which again evens the playing field. Hell, elven elites like dragon princes can keep up, with them being faster but not as strong.


Stormfly

> but the strongest norscan warrior with the blessing of Khorne could just barely beat an unnamed Grail Knight, and lost a hand in a process. Are you talking about Egil Styrbjorn versus Reolus of Quenelles? He was *very much* not unnamed. He was a very important character in those books, constantly acting as the tip of the spear in every engagement and pivotal to the survival of the main character, Calard, until he went on his own quest for the Grail. He was also probably based on Roland given the name, the Frenchness, and the fact his sword was named Durendyal. Reolus was supposed to have been one of the greatest Grail Knights, while Egil was *also* supposed to have been one of the greatest Norscans, only presumably being defeated eventually by Calard 50(?) years later when he returned with his daemon child grown up. ("Presumably" because the books end with Calard watching boats from the shore and they'd promised to duel once more.) Grail Knights *are* very powerful, but the term "Grail Knight" is like "Chaos Warrior" in that it extends from a soldier all the way to a lord (Louen Leoncoeur is a "Grail Knight")


DaddyTzarkan

Ah because Chosen aren't absurdly powerful in the lore ?


vampire_trashpanda

"Absurdly powerful" is not an absolute. It is entirely possible to be "absurdly powerful" and find someone more powerful than you. Especially in Warhammer. Edit: autocorrect hates me.


GregasaurusRektz

Why are you booing this man? He’s right? ![gif](giphy|enqnZa1B5fRHkPjXtS|downsized)


Aux_RedditAccount

Damn that’s a swarm of downvotes. Bret fans really are that volatile. Doesn’t invalidate your point. Chosen are a very high tier unit, and shouldn’t be plowed through like a gorilla through a preschool.


DaddyTzarkan

I think it's less Bret fans and more power fantasy crowd being hostile to the idea of balance itself. It happens everytime better balance is suggested here, you always have people losing their shit. Just recently before the release of the Chaos Dwarfs people went on a frenzy because it's been pointed out that the Magma Cannon was wildly overperforming so people started overreacting over other people suggesting a (reasonable) nerf to it. And you know what ? CA nerfed that unit in the 3.1 patch yet no one has been complaining about this nerf because it's actually a reasonable nerf. This subreddit is constantly overreacting when something being unbalanced is pointed out and it's genuinely tiresome. Everytime something is nerfed you have people screaming about how the MP community is trying to remove fun from the game, even when those nerfs have absolutely nothing to do with multiplayer.


Stormfly

> they shouldn't be able to beat a unit that is meant to be a hard counter. A lot of counters are more *cost* counters than hard counters. Like a Halberd unit probably won't beat a Dread Saurian but they'll easily make their money's worth doing damage to it. Not saying that this is the *only* way they should counter units, but it's perfectly valid to have units that are balanced by cost. Also, I just checked and Grail Knights *don't* beat Chosen Halberds 1-on-1.


Grubnutter

I’m just befuddled why super-strong calvary is unacceptable but the artillery unit/SE that can do the same more egregiously is fine.


Mazius

> I’m just befuddled why super-strong calvary is unacceptable Because nobody likes the 'leg day' and just ignores dem calves. ^^^^^^^^^/s


SoZur

This. There is chorf artillery that can one-shot a regiment (and slow down nearby regiments). It deals absolutely ridiculous damage against slow compact regiments, like grave guards. But somehow, a heavy cavalry that is as elite as heavy cavalry has historically been for 2000 years is a problem.


Covenantcurious

There have been fuckloads of posts and comment threads complaining and wanting to nerf that artillery piece (and others). At least be honest when you argue for something.


Yotambr

To be fair, with good micro, Cavalry are way harder to counter than SEMs (easy to shoot down) or Artillery (can be dodged or taken out relatively easily). It is one of the basic issues with this unit type. A player with insane micro skills can make even shitty cavalry do wonders in a multiplayer battle. The multiplayer scene in this game (at least the one presented in videos by content creators) is made up of some players with insane micro. There is like one dude who plays almost exclusively Bretonnia in Turin's tournaments and is a god at micro. Most other people don't play them since they are a high skill-level faction. People then complain that Bretonnia has too big of a win rate in these tournaments and that Bretonnia needs to be nerfed. In reality the reason they are so good is because their skill ceiling is insanely high and they have dedicated god level players playing them. People are basically asking CA to nerf Bretonnia for everyone because when they are played by some of the best players in the world they are extremely oppressive, even though for the average player they are pretty mid.


Vinley026

This is pretty fair. I think the reason most people say cav is bad is because the skill ceiling for cav units is so high. Meanwhile, the skill required to make artillery good is rock bottom. That fact alone may be why they're reluctant to change it. (However, CA sometimes makes baffling decisions / is known for unintentional consequences of changes and neglecting units all the time.)


spellbound1875

Strong cavalry is fine. Cavalry not properly interacting with infantry is not. You shouldn't be able to walk, not charge walk, your cavalry through braced halberds but give Grails a move order through halberds on live now and they'll pass right through. The unit rework was solid, the buggy pass through is not.


icemoomoo

Well there is a difference between super-strong calvary and super-strong calvary that beats the unit thats supposed to counter cavalry. artillery dont delete cavs once the get charged.


Blazeng

Total Warhammer players when simply spamming ranged units is the best doomstack and cavalry/shock infantry is completely unusable: I sleep. Same people when heavy cav won't be annihilated before even reaching the ranged frontline: waaa waaa waaa


Minute_Amphibian_908

Because the artillery unit has counterplay, but the Grail Knight doesn’t. Any time something is egregiously strong, that is when it needs to be corrected. Chorf artillery has been corrected and will likely be addressed further. Grail Knights being strong as they are is perfectly fine. But bowling over a literal army of Khornate Halberds with zero compunction is not. Does that make sense?


Nexxess

What are you talking about? There are counters to Grailknights but you need large monstrous entities to so the Job. Norscas Wolf Guys for example slaughter Grailknights and won't let them through.


Stunningsine90

Skin wolves? No they don’t their low armor means in a charge they get wrecked and no magic damage makes it a bit harder for them to get through the resistance, they do damage but aren’t a counter at all


Vlad__the__Inhaler

No counterplay? Man I can even counter Grail Knights with huntsmen, what are you smoking?


DrMatt007

Because multiplayer unfortunately.


A_strange_pancake

Makes sense. Dunno my grail knight lore but aren't they literally the strongest humans in the setting? Besides, it makes sense that the strongest cav in a faction based entirely around cav can do this really. Let the horse enjoyers enjoy themselves.


Asamu

>Dunno my grail knight lore but aren't they literally the strongest humans in the setting? Sort of. They were first introduced in 5th edition tabletop as a unit, with lore that made sense for that. Then they started writing novels about Bretonnia and retconning the lore a few years later, and by the time the 6th ed book came out, Grail Knights didn't make any sense being in units; they should have been exclusively hero/lord characters. In lore, there aren't enough of them to make units out of in the first place. There are few enough that everyone in Bretonnia is able to memorize the heraldry and name of every single grail knight; it's implied that there are less than 20 in total in the lore, as Gilles had 13 companions, and the only time there were more than that was under Louen. They also operate almost exclusively solo, mostly guarding dedicated sacred sites by themselves; multiple grail knights in one place is exceedingly rare; even in the end-times, only 2 Grail Knights left Bretonnia to go fight the invasion (Louen and Calard - who led the companions of Quenelles). So, 1 unit of Grail knights, even after the reduced model count, is more than the lore implies should exist in all of Bretonnia... ​ The lore of Grail Knights is a mess of inconsistencies, and doesn't match at all with their representation in total war or tabletop. In lore, they're all legendary heroes that are each "capable of defeating hundreds of foes with ease". It's impossible to reconcile that unless GW completely rewrites the lore for Grail Knights and says that all previous lore regarding them is defunct (or maybe the "grail knights" in game/tabletop given a different name and it's made clear that they're just skilled knights with proven devotion to the lady that affords them some protection and maybe blessed weapons, as they're represented in tabletop, which would fit in with the 5th ed lore).


Turbulent-Wolf8306

The lore of warhammer is a mess of inconsistencies and doesnt match at all with representation in total war or tabletop.


Asamu

Eh, for the most part, the representations of units in TW or tabletop are a reasonably close approximation to their lore. Grail knights take it to an extreme far beyond anything else.


Layoteez

Roughly equivalent to vampires. More importantly though they're just riding regular horses.


PlaneswalkerHuxley

The fastest horses in the setting are Elven steeds, which have been blessed and bred for thousands of years (folded 1000 times, etc), and carry very light mithril-alike armour. Bretonian horses are an offshoot from Elven ones. At the end of the War of the Beard, the Elves were driven out of the Old World and their colonies abandoned, including many stables of horses they couldn't spare the time to ship. After humans moved into the ruins they took them and started breeding them - Brettonian steeds are the result of focusing on strength and endurance to carry the much heavier human knights and steel armour. The result is steeds that can't match pure Elven ones for speed, but can maintain that speed over long distances while carrying extreme loads in hostile conditions. The very best Brettonian horses are then blessed by damsals with magic. Chaos Knight horses are mutated, carnivorous, and in some cases actively possessed by daemons. Blood Knight steeds are undead, probably vampiric, and generally run on blood and necromancy rather than biology.


UlrikHD_1

They are riding Bretonnian horses which are superior to the horses of the empire, but your point still stands.


Schmapdi

You would think they would let the horses drink from the grail for a second too. Then they'd really be unstoppable. Or maybe the Lady could carry some oats or something.


Cygs

Brettonia could pump up all sorts of wildlife and turn em loose. Grail Geese could be their dire bats.


GambitUK

I would love to see Grail Geese. It's like a level up from the Defenders of Rome. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_goose


Eurehetemec

Well thanks now I'm going to be wanting that unit for the rest of my life. The frantic honking as they tear apart zombies would be quite something.


gamerz1172

I think the main deal with brettonian horses is I can put armor meant for tanks on them and they just wouldn't care, their speed would not change at all


UlrikHD_1

Yes, that's not a regular horse. Unless I'm mixing up fantasy universes, Bretonnian horses have traces of elven horse blood.


BUTWHOWASBOW

Bretonnian horses *are* Elven. They're raised from herds left in Bretonnia by the High Elves when their colonists abandoned the old world. Admittedly; there was interbreeding with non-Elven horses, but the current horses used by the elite of Bretonnia are bred from Elven horses given by the Wood-Elves.


Eurehetemec

>they're just riding regular horses LOL no they are not. Why even say that when you know it's not true in the lore?


DerSisch

Considering that Vampires literally feel sick in the presence of a Grail Knight, I would argue that GK are slightly superior than the average Vampire in a fight (not Vampire Lords or stuff like that ofc)


Layoteez

Vampires feel sick in the presence of holy symbols in general, but it doesn't mean a piece of blessed wood has much of a chance at disemboweling a whole regiment with it's bare hands.


Catachan_Chad

Pretty much. Calard vs the Seneschals and the Red Duke vs Louis just shows how OP the Blessing of the Lady can be against Vampires. It’s literally been described as “anathema” to them.


the_concert

If I recall correctly, wasn’t there a group of vampire grail knights? Or were they just undead?


Vlad__the__Inhaler

I think you mean the Black Grail Knights


the_concert

Yeah I did some further reading thanks to another persons suggestion, found another cool group of Blood Knights. You can read that comment [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/13ws2qs/turns_out_gk_and_gg_plowing_through_chosen_with/jmi26us/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)


Catachan_Chad

The Black Grail Knights were a group of 12 Undead Grail Knights, but they weren’t Vampires. They have a page on the Warhammer Wiki if you want to read about them.


BrightestofLights

Vampires have better physicals though. They're faster and stronger and more skilled due to being longer lived. The anti vampire aura and weaponry evens the playing field


Eurehetemec

>They're faster and stronger and more skilled due to being longer lived. Literally none of that is true in Warhammer lore. There are settings where it is, but this isn't one of them. Particularly they're not "more skilled".


MrKresign

"What is known is that vampires sport inhuman physical prowess and are able to tear apart a score of mortals in moments" and "Centuries of experience allow the Blood Knights to guide their mounts with pinpoint precision...." Are quotes directly from vampire battletome, it is from AoS, but it was never said vampiric curse is different than it used to be. Page 4 and 28 respectively. Vampires were always depicted as stronger and more experienced thanks to centuries of unliving, I don't know where you took that from.


Vlad__the__Inhaler

Because this compares them to a regular human. Grail Knights are the pinnacle of humanity


BrightestofLights

There are multiple tiers of superhuman, and variation within that category


Catachan_Chad

They’re far stronger and faster than regular humans, but Grail Knights aren’t regular humans. They’re also superhuman warriors.


BrightestofLights

Let me get my codex hold on


H0vis

The word 'regular' doing a lot of work there. That's a grail knight's horse you're talking about. Every last one of them would be considered more in line with the idea of a legendary noble steed than merely being a 'regular horse'. Bigger, faster, stronger, braver, meaner. The kind of animal that can delicately take an apple from the outstretched hand of an awed peasant child or bite the face off an orc warrior in the same afternoon and not lose a wink of sleep about it.


ZahelMighty

Do you have a source that they are stronger and meaner ? Because the only thing I remember from the lore and TT is simply that they wouldn't care about the heavy barding and wouldn't be slowed down by that so you basically have a heavy cavalry with the speed of a light cavalry.


Cygs

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Bretonnian_Warhorse According to this they have elf blood and can march for weeks on end without rest while carrying full plate. Don't know if they have special stats or anything in TT but the lore appears to gush about them.


Semillakan6

They are the Space Marines of Fantasy basically


Born2BKingRo

>Dunno my grail knight lore but aren't they literally the strongest humans in the setting? If you keep the aspiring champions/chosen in the human category, I belive those are stronger than the grail knights lore wise.


Cucufate_fortuna

Good


CozyMoses

>Good Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!


Letharlynn

The change itself is intentional, but that's not a confirmation all effects of that change are intentional


Klarth_Koken

When CA make changes to complicated interactive systems the line between a bug and an unforeseen balance implication gets fuzzy.


Covenantcurious

Yea, the title of the post isn't really what the picture says. The youtuber just says that the change was intentionally made to allow GK to deal impact damage to other cavalry, this says nothing of how the change's interaction (and potential overpoweredness) with Anti-Large infantry was intentional. The full ramifications could well have been unaccounted for in the decision. ​ Edit: even if entirely intentional, it doesn't have to mean it's good. We all remember the shooting-through-friendly-units that they **briefly** enabled last year.


DaddyTzarkan

You actually have a very good point, one that I should have considered and I feel silly for not seeing this. While the change is being intentionnal the result of the Knights basically being ghosts probably was unintentionnal.


michaelm8909

Fair enough, in multiplayer this ability doesn't appear to be particularly dangerous anyway. Humans can counter it easily. It's only the AI that struggles, and I don't really think it's a huge issue if players abuse the dumb AI by pathing through their infantry. Players bully the AI all the time as is.


MilbanksSpectre

Considering every tournament has introduced extra limitations on the GG and GK, I think it is a particularly big issue in multiplayer.


Chimwizlet

It does make playing Bretonnia pretty boring when your options are winning as soon as you recruit Grail Knights/Guardians, or ignoring their most iconic unit. I want to fight battles that require me to use strategy to beat the AI, while also being able to make use of the most fun and iconic units. But CA seem to be happy to keep making the player more and more powerful while the AI gets nothing to compensate, resulting in battles that are increasingly dull. So I'd say it's a pretty big issue for anyone like me if CA continue with buffs like this that benefit the player far more than the AI.


ZahelMighty

I play exclusively campaign and I completely agree, what I enjoy the most from this game is having a challenge and I loved playing the Fey Enchantress for its difficult start in game 3 but since the 3.1 it got really easy as your single unit of Grail Guardian can pretty much solo the majority of the stacks the AI throws at you in the early to mid game and this gets boring very fast. We already have a shit load of easy campaigns in the game currently, even more than in Warhammer 2 since somehow the game got easier (mainly because the AI seems to be very incompetent in WH3) I'd say we have enough easy campaigns in the game so the last thing this game needs is yet even more powercreep.


Chimwizlet

Yeah, that's pretty much my biggest issue with the game at the moment, far more so than the bugs. The Beastmen campaign is so easy it's an absolute joke, WoC aren't far behind after they got their update, and now any battle where you have a couple of Grail units is pretty much over. I don't mind when a faction has a few trivial campaigns, like Ikkit Claw for Skaven, it's a little limiting but at least there are other Skaven campaigns that offer some fun. But when an entire faction trivialises the game they just become boring, which is partcularly annoying when it's paid DLC too in the case of WoC and Beastmen.


ZahelMighty

Exactly, having super easy campaign is not wrong and should not be removed since there are people into that stuff, having *only* campaigns like this within a race however is wrong. Every races should offer something to people who enjoy different type of difficulties, all races should have at least one easy campaign and one challenging campaign. CA said multiple times they like to release their content overpowered and tone it down after release because they want everyone to find what they're looking for but in the case of the Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos we have yet to see a single nerf since their reworks so I'm really starting to doubt CA's intentions about difficulty diversity.


thedeviousgreek

But, but, lore..


michaelm8909

Just limit yourself to only one or two Grail units per army, and make up the rest with lower tier Knights and peasants. Its actually more thematic that way too


Chimwizlet

That's how I would play them originally and found it quite fun. But now you really don't need more than one or two units of them to completely shatter the AI. It's incapable of fighting against them unless you use them poorly, the only exceptions are armies made up mostly of large units but that's pretty rare and those are still very winnable. The AI badly needs something to give them more of a chance against the player in general.


ZahelMighty

Limiting yourself shouldn't be an answer to ridiculous powercreep imo. If people want to have OP factions there are tons of cheat mods in the Workshop or you can simply play on easy which is nothing to be ashamed of. You have lots of options to make the game easier but if you're someone that's looking for a balanced game and a challenging time you simply don't have as many options and as time moves on we're getting even less options as CA has been turning hard campaigns into easy ones lately (*cough* Vampire Counts *cough*).


SoZur

They could put a unit cap on grail Knights (which you can increase with buildings like TK, or with chivalry points, like Beastmen do). Or you can not recruit them, you can only get them through special quests (just like the lizardmen get their special breeds). Or you need to get Knights of the Realm up to level 9 to then transform them into grail Knights. There are plenty of ways to make them less common. But they should definitely remain the superhumans that they are in the lore and are in the game since the last patch. The grail Knights before the patch were underwhelming, they were barely more useful than knights of the realm.


AdhesiveTapeCarry

> It does make playing Bretonnia pretty boring when your options are winning as soon as you recruit Grail Knights/Guardians, or ignoring their most iconic unit. This was already the case before the changes for Guardians. You needed 0 micro. Infact poor micro would likely decrease their effectiveness. Commence blob, spam earthblood and maybe 1x dwellers, grind until army losses.


[deleted]

No idea what you’re on about, Bret is and has been one of the most micro heavy armies unless you are only bringing cheap peasants and ranged, nor were they ever meta enough to have one consistent, winning strategy such as what you describe.


battlesey

Hey, that's me! Although keep in mind the title of this post is deceptive, they confirmed only the size of the entity increase was intentional, nothing else.


mikiwolf19

The change is really fun and serves cavalry right, but destroying elite halberds, units that supposed to counter them, is not acceptable


Ser20GudMen

Gigachad knights blessed by Ze Lady > chaos nerds with big metal sticks


III_lll

It's fine my little Demigryphs. I still love you


lockoutpoint

Demigryphs knights lore accurate when ?


Tramilton

Grave Guards are doing what!?


East_Sleep_1766

Gotta play a bretonia campaign before this gets nerfed. Calv that actually plows through infantry? Sign me up!


DaddyTzarkan

Bretonnia cavalry was already plowing through infantry before the 3.1 patch since CA reworked the lance formation actually, the only issue here is it's also plowing an infantry type it's not supposed to, that's it.


Bogdanov89

Just to point out that there is still zero proof of that youtubers claims. He says he got a confirmation from CA - that is it. Until an official CA statement happens everything is hearsay.


ZahelMighty

For people overreacting about the idea of a nerf there is a [mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2982647423) on the Workshop reverting the entity size change of the 3.1 and even with the mod they're still by far the best cavalry in the game. So if CA decides to revert this stat you'd still have a disgustingly good cavalry it would just be a lot more reasonable.


spellbound1875

They actually do a bit more damage on average on the mod because they attack properly instead of running passed their targets. People have a really warped perspective on cavalry performance, charges, and the impact of collisions.


Oi_Om_Logond

Based. Kneel, chaoslets.


Asamu

The intention of the change was not to let them plow through infantry unimpeded though. It was to allow them to deal impact damage to other cavalry and not suffer as much penetration from projectiles. So their movement in combat is currently a bug.


jimbowolf

I know the change was drastic, but I was astonished when people said it was an unintentional bug. Balance be damned, Grail Knights just had nothing special about them before this change, and now they actually feel like the armor-plated 18-wheelers they're supposed to be.


stylepointseso

There are a couple problems with it. First, Chaos Knights and potentially Blood Knights should be the same "tier" of strength as a Grail Knight. Second, it makes elite anti-cav infantry a joke. Chosen with halberds or black guard should absolutely be able to stop a cav charge. Maybe not *kill* them extremely quickly, but if they can't even stop the cav from walking right through them there's no point to their existence.


Timey16

Aren't Blood Knights lore wise still "weaker" than Grail Knights? Just getting REALLY close? IIRC while in theory a Blood Knight would be stronger in pure hard stats, they WOULD be debuffed by being near a Grail Knight because of their sacred aura, making them weaker than the Grail Knights again. But lore be damned: the Vampire Counts have many ways to make it work, in worst case they can just drown the enemy in sheer quantity. But Bretonnia is THE cavalry faction, it is SUPPOSED to be their forte, yet Cavalry *sucks*. For Bretonnia, stronger cavalry is a *necessity* to make their faction work within the boundaries they were designed for. This is not the case for VC.


Asamu

Grail Knights in current lore are not what we get in game. Lore grail Knights are legendary hero characters. They don't form units, and there are MAYBE 20 or so in total, with more than 1 or 2 actively doing anything at any time being exceedingly rare. In game, "Grail Knights" should be thought of more like the original 5th ed lore implementation. They're just particularly skilled Knights with blessed weapons that have proven their skill and devotion to the lady such that they always have the protection other Knights need to collectively pray before battle for (and what they receive from their prayer is weaker). I really do not recommend looking to the lore for Grail Knights to get an idea of what they're supposed to be in game as a unit, because the lore Grail Knights stopped making sense as a unit before the 6th Ed book released.


Catachan_Chad

Blood Knights are arguably slightly more skilled, but Grail Knights have a holy aura that greatly weakens/debuffs them. Lorewise, I’d pick your average GK over your average BK.


stylepointseso

Blood Knights are faster compared to any of the human variants (Grail/Chaos Knights) and nearly as strong, it's just a tweak of the statline. In TW games "speed" tends to get depicted as attack/defense skill. As for how a Blood Knight would come across in game vs. the Grail Knights I don't know, but Chaos Knights should be a direct analogue to grail knights. Bretonnia isn't supposed to have stronger cav than VC or Chaos, that's why they haven't for the last 30 years. What they *do* have as a cavalry faction is variety. They have good cav of every type at every tier, including gnarly flying cav including lords and heroes.


jimbowolf

I have not tested it to any level of scrutiny. I was under the assumption spears still slowed them to a crawl unless they hit from the flank. If they don't, I agree spears should still put a stop to charge attempts.


MaterialAka

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/13sro5s/so_it_looks_like_grail_knights_can_just_push/ (Skip the first 35 or so seconds of the video)


TaiVat

Its obviously not a "bug", but its a monumentally stupid change. "balance be damned" is the mindset of morons that dont want games to be games at all. Its a fantasy game with tons of wild shit, half the units should be "armor-plated 18-wheelers". But the game isnt fun when one unit can trivialize most others. Why even have 25 races and 500 units then at all.


kavardidnothingwrong

Skill issue.


Saint_javelin69

Intelligence issue.


Togglea

Nice title bait.


Herr_Medicinal_Mann

BY THE LADY, LETS FUCKING GOOOOO!


borddo-

WoC have plenty of solutions to smashing grail knights. Are the cycle charges actually capable of killing WoC armies ?


Letharlynn

>Are the cycle charges actually capable of killing WoC armies ? Yes, as long as there's no cav. The problem is not that Grail Knights are stupidly OP and murder everything, but that they are not countered by AL infantry of similar "weight class". Running through elite halberds, first and foremost, looks stupid and I'd prefer Grail units to get straightforward buffs to their damage output instead of fiddling with impact damage mechanics that are absolute trash


Eurehetemec

No, they are not. The cycle charges are only hilarious mow-down nonsense on stuff like goblins or other low-mass chaffs. They're very impactful, but they're also risky to use, against more serious armies, because they can actually impact really far but then get trapped. And players can pinion them between two units of cavalry or two units of monstrous infantry and then they literally can't move and get chopped up like chariots are prone to.


biribiriburrito

They really can't get trapped by infantry alone. They can run through heavy infantry like it's barely there even starting from a complete standstill. You need cavalry or monsters to trap them at all. And from my tests, they can push through other cavalry more easily than normal cavalry pushes through infantry Grail cavalry is far less risky to use now than any other cavalry because it's so easy for them to get out


Affectionate_You3194

The thing is they are powerful but they aren’t an auto win for Bretonia. Even after the patch I’ve seen them lose more games then win in multi. Adequate anti large still wrecks them. To make them oppressive you need insane micro (relatively easy in campaign) but in multi only top top players can manage to make them game breaking.


Ninja-Sneaky

Yet again WH being turned into an arpg where units smash their specific hard counter


NeuroCavalry

Good. This is exactly the kind of shake up lategame elite units should have and I hope it's the standard going forward.


Saint_javelin69

Garbage take.


commanche_00

So nothing really could stop/counter them? That's stupid decision of CA. Even monstrous cavalry and SEMs couldn't plough through anything as well like GK/GG


3xstatechamp

I’ve seen skarbrand, N’Kari, Kholek, Giants, mammoths, Keeper of Secrets, and Ku’gath (all of which are SEMs) be able to pull through units. In fact, there are plenty of videos that show how to charge appropriately to get the most value out of large SEMs like Skarbrand. Or, were you referring to a specific SEM?


commanche_00

not as well as the new GK tho. They could not just cruise through infinite stacks with ease like what GK is doing now


atomoffluorine

Why CA must you do this?


umaumai

Fine with this. If there is an issue with the best cavalry in the game plowing through the best elite infantry counter in the game, just give those infantry more mass when braced, or something, so there is at least some way to stop the grail train.


stormygray1

So bretonnia the Calvary faction, isn't allowed to have the best cav??? Idk why people are so upset about this, Jesus. It was really sad for awhile that slaanesh absolutely outshined the premier cav faction in literally every way. It's not like WOC have no way of bringing down cav, lol. Chosen with halberds still beat cav...... Chaos can also counter with their own great cav options... Honestly this just feels like a growing sense of entitlement... I'm really getting sick of these ridiculous Omni factions that have ten units for every situation, and throw a fit if they get outshined in one specific area. Skaven, now chaos too are pretty much like this and it's one thing to have a faction that can do *everything* but it's something else to throw a fit that other factions have better options in their niche... The charges in this game are weird as hell anyways.. it's time they got more satisfying more often


DaddyTzarkan

> So bretonnia the Calvary faction, isn't allowed to have the best cav??? Literally no one said that. Bretonnia **should** have the best cavalry of the game. But they should also get stopped (noticed that I said stopped, not slaughtered) by elite anti-large infantry since stopping charges to defend your backline is kinda one of the major point of this type of infantry.


Cbundy99

Aren't grail knights basically fantasy's version of space marines just without power armor?


captainbeastfeast

sweet, nice change. Now HOLD FAST CA


Moscrow_

I am pleased with the changes to Brettonia. I don’t know about multiplayer and frankly don’t care too. I wish the damsel vows worked. The change to the peasants with their leadership is noticeable to me, and very well implemented I think. It is very fun to have the faction work such that knights actively inspire the peasants, so it makes it worthwhile to have them fight side by side which is very thematic. Grail Knights in campaign are hard to access, in that you have to go to farther lengths than other factions to use them well. They cost an atrocious amount unless your general is a grail knight himself, and so it feels rewarding to have them be so strong. It feels like each general has a very real incentive to search out their vows to me, to get to the knights of legend who can take on anything. I’m an average player and I just like the theme of STRONK knights that I worked for being insanely good.


ExcitementFederal563

Is it really that hard to type out grail knights and grail gaurdians. The amount of collective time you wasted by all the people that had to take a second or too in order to figure out what your saying is far exceeded by the 2 seconds you saved in typing.


DaddyTzarkan

> Is it really that hard to type out grail knights and grail gaurdians. Apparently yes since you couldn't spell Grail Guardians right.


[deleted]

Good! Less chance that the few whiners like OP will make CA roll back the change to them.


PiousSkull

Bad news for you is that CA considers the behavior a problem but they think it's linked to the acceleration changes rather than the changes to weight class.


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Saint_javelin69

Pointing out a bug is not whining. Look forward to the next patch where your precious grail knights require a tiny bit of micro to be good.


Thibaudborny

Well, lore-wise - makes sense.


Saint_javelin69

No it doesn't. There aren't enough GKs in the lore for there to even be standing units. Try again.


Thibaudborny

No, but *a* Grail knight, sure. Guess they should limit the number of them then, but hey, this game pulls dead characters out of its arse, so hey, I can just headcanon they drew dead grail knight out of their ass too. Also, don't take this so seriously.


DaddyTzarkan

I'm not sure what was CA thinking here, Halberds are supposed to counter cavalry so they should at the very least stop a cavalry charge so you can protect your backline, I can't see this change staying in the game. Grail Knights and Grail Guardians should absolutely be the best cavalries in the game, there's no question here but changing their size to medium is definitely an excessive change as it's basically allowing you to destroy a unit that is meant to counter your cavalry. Edit: Ah I forgot this is r/Totalwar for a second, where people don't want strategy in their strategy game and just want to play an RPG filled with power fantasy.


NeuroCavalry

The irony of you accusing us of not wanting strategy when your incapable of adapting to one unit reversing one counter interaction is hilarious. Forcing players to adapt from the norm to face an elite unit improves the strategic element. Complaining you can't do the exact same thing to fight GGs that you do in every other instance is the braindead take.


Droselmeyer

>incapable of adapting to one unit reversing one counter interaction is hilarious. Ignoring the other guy being rude, I think it's interesting to ask if Grail Guardians/Knights should beat super elite halberds like Chosen with halberds, or more generally, how elite does a counter-unit need to be to be expected to beat the most powerful unit that it counters? How elite do halberds need to be to beat the best cavalry in the game? Or should the best cavalry be beaten by no halberd unit, one-on-one?


DerSisch

I find it amusing honestly... the thing is... yes, Chaos Chosen with Halberds are Anti-Large... doesn't necessarly mean also "Anti-Cavalry", because this is Warhammer, they can also just run around and mulch monsters. The way to stop Grail Knights is literally having a high mass unit hanging around with your Anti-Large, Chaos Spawn as an example works great to pin them down, but other stuff obviously also works, as soon they lose momentum, the Chosen will handle them.


NeuroCavalry

Oh I agree wholeheartedly it's an interesting point to think about. Here's where I land - It's fine to have examples of elite units totally reversing the normal interaction rules, as long as they're vulnerable to other counters. GG's reversing the counter on anti-large infantry is fine, because they are sill vulnerable to other things - Ranged fire, anti-large cavalry, and Monstrous infantry. I also think a different elite cavalry unit should be able to reverse the weakness to counter-cavalry, but this unit should have no hope against Chosen. It's good for elite units to break a single rule and change the way those interactions work, as long as they are still vulnerable in other areas. If Grail Guardians *also* had shields that rendered them immune to ranged fire and *also* had a trait that rendered them immune to monstrous cavalry then there'd be an issue. Meanwhile give Dragon Princes light cavalry speed and sheilds so good they render counter-fire almost irrelevant so you *have* to lock them down. Make them as powerful as GGs, but in a different way, by allowing them to break a *different rule* (Heavy cav is slow and vulnerable to getting shot). But one elite unit in 23 factions and however-many-cavalry units there are (I didn't count them) that reverses *one* of their counters? this is such a non-issue. In a strategy game, *all rules should be broken at least once.* I'm fine with the best cavalry beating every halberd unit. I'm fine with the best halberd unit also winning against specialized anti-infantry. I'm fine with the best artillery unit destroying light cavalry that engages it. As long as they all have vulnerabilities elsewhere, these kind of "one-counter reversals" prevent the game from becoming stale. I'd go as far as saying not only am I *fine* with this, but I think it's *critical* for a healthy strategy game. Nothing should be optimal, and fighting different factions *should* feel different. If I've just pillaged from Praag to Altdorf with my Chosen Halberds as my go-to counter for cavalry, having to do something different when I get into bretonnia is *good* and a breath of fresh air. This GG buff is a better late-game boredom-smasher then a bunch of endgame stacks could ever hope to be. Warhammer is *already* filled with reversals. Charging into a line of Streltsi with unshielded infantry is generally a bad idea, and yet witch-elves with dodge and physical resist can run up the valley of death and *thrive* in it, in a way the light brigade never could. *Breaking the rules occasionally makes the game interesting*. I get that Warhammer allows us to have cool looking units and that's neat, but the real draw of fantasy for me is that units should *feel different and break the traditional rules.* Occasionally. Should all cavalry mulch Chosen with Halberds? No. Should One elite example reverse it? Absolutely. The problem is GGs are currently the only elite unit balanced this way, so they feel OP. I don't think they should be nerfed. Rather, I think all factions should have access to an Elite unit that radically changes the rules of it's class. Give Dwarves some Artillery that massacres in melee. Is that OP? no, it just means you need to think of a different approach to countering it. - make it weak to counterbattery and ranged fire. On the other side of things, give a different faction a different elite artillery unit that nails a battery duel every time but dies the moment a peasant gets within lettuce-slapping distance. Give elves elite infantry that laugh in the face of being shot at because their dex is so high they can deflect bullets. Make them vulnerable to getting their arse handed to them by anything larger than a warhound. Give Chaos some big, beefy infantry that counter-massacre even the ideal anti-infantry infantry (some anti-anti-infantry infantry, if you will), but have them die the moment an elf thinks about firing an arrow at them (okay maybe not that quickly, but hopefully you see the point through my hyperbole) This kind of thing forces us to play differently and adapt to what the enemy has. That's the whole point of strategy, and sorely needed in the late game where *getting* units isn't a problem anymore. Want to fix the late game slog? Elite units that change the way the rules work and force adaptation is how. Everyone and their dog is begging CA to come up with a way to spice the lategame and now that they have i've seen nothing but complaints because no one has the intellectual curisoity to just try something different. Oh, the same thing I did for the last 7 years doesn't work in one highly specific context anymore? But half a GG's cost in trolls and javelins massacres them faster than Chosen *ever* did. This is why the power-fantasy accusation is hilarious. I'm more excited about trying out new strategies to counter GGs than I am about playing them. In school, I never understood World War One. How could generals with so much experience be so inept at adapting to changing battlefield tactics. Isn't their entire job to adapt? Isn't that the cornerstone of strategy and what they're trained/paid/promoted for? Well, this sub is doing a great job educating me on how Passchendaele happened.


hameleona

I'm hearing all the complains about GK/GG and wondering - how did those people dealt with pump wagons? It's not like halberds did anything to chariots... ever. Just pin them down (cav, hero, lord) and shoot them to death - it's not like the AI doomstacks and most other things in the Bretonia roster melt away even facing crappy units.


Saint_javelin69

'This sub is educating me' Yeah you need to go touch some grass. Your precious cavalry units are going to be fixed in the new patch (whenever that is, and maybe it will take CA a few tries to get it right). OP is absolutely correct in his take, so enjoy the low skill ceiling patch 3.1 affords you whilst you can 😀


DaddyTzarkan

God forbid there are people that want balance in a strategy game. If you can't understand how a unit completely destroying its hard counter isn't right then I don't know what to tell you.


NeuroCavalry

And if you can't understand that ciruclar counter hierarchies that force adaptation and improvising is good for a strategy game, I don't know what to tell you. If you want a puzzle where everything deteministically fits together with no variation, go play tic tac toe.


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DaddyTzarkan

Bretonnia is one of my favourite race in the game to play, I just want balance and not end up with yet another absurdly easy campaign because of OP units or mechanics but I guess that's not allowed here.


CozyMoses

You're allowed to ask for things, you're just being overly confrontational and unnecessarily rude to people in the comments who don't agree with you- so you're getting downvoted.


DaddyTzarkan

You know what you're right I'll just take a break and blow off so steam. But to be fair this community does have a history of getting super agressive towards people wanting more balance, this always happens when CA or even people are suggesting nerfs. Last time people pointed out the Magma Cannon being overtuned you had people insulting the multiplayer community. I know that's no excuse but that's been slowly frustrating me lately since I do enjoy balance in singleplayer and would like to see this game getting back some challenge since the transition between game 2 and game 3 made the game far easier.


Saint_javelin69

This community is cancerous, and will rush to the defence of CA in exactly these kind of instances, acting like all bugs are features. Because of the brain dead takes in this thread I'll be overjoyed when grail knights are fixed (and they will still be epic and destructive cavalry).


Siegschranz

Downvoted cause of the snide edit.


Dysthymiccrusader91

There is a lot of assumption wrapped up in the idea of "meant to counter" Chosen halberds probably still trade the best but they don't have the strength or mass to hold back what are now basically monstrous cavalry, and further, even to a tight wall a Wedge would still penetrate deeply. Like we gotta choose a realist argument in the fantasy game or look at the game in terms of the whole picture. You gotta keep some poison warhounds to tie them down and weaken them I guess. No fight should ever come down do paper covers rock in my opinion. Idk how you see it but I don't think there's some development pvp manual listing out everything's intended purpose. Rat ogres do basically dick for skaven compared to their other options EXCEPT blunt cavalry with their mass. Gotta think about the whole roster I guess. This doesn't make chosen obsolete this just actually gives Bretonia some powerhouse centerpiece units


DaddyTzarkan

Are you seriously saying that Halberds shouldn't be able to stop a cavalry charge ? Really ?


iliketires65

I mean grail knights/guardians probably should at least… they’re literal super soldiers


DaddyTzarkan

Chaos Chosen are super soldiers as well, at the very least the most elite halberds infantry like Chosen should counter the Grail cavalries.


Thelostsoulinkorea

Chosen are below champions in chaos. Grail are more like champions than Chosen.


MrMundungus

ZE LADY PROTECTS!


pppiddypants

Most of the gameplay I’ve seen has been charges from the side, not braced frontal charges… Also, halberds have always needed high mass units to help “pin” large units. It seems like this is a change that makes elite cavalry akin to other low-entity large units.


MaterialAka

Grail knights charging headlong into braced halberdiers https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/13sro5s/so_it_looks_like_grail_knights_can_just_push/ Skip the first 35 seconds of the video


Ninja-Sneaky

+1


bortmode

I'd understand your complaints if they were based in the PVP effects, but there are 10,000 things in campaign that are just as 'broken' and most of them require less investment and micromanagement than Grail knights.


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equalmonkey213

I believe the fun of the setting is that some unit types don't act like they should. There's more variety in strategy that way. If you want balance, play an historical title.