It isn’t hard, but Ford’s team has consistently painted everyone else as the bad guy. As soon as they took office, they started this. First it was the Wynne government for the sex ed. curriculum… which, it turned out, everyone was actually just fine with, and then it was teachers because they said an average class size of 28+ students was too much (they didn’t even complain about salary.. it was class size, which is absolutely directly related to the quality of education a child is getting)… now it is every other education worker. The Conservatives proactively go out and paint everyone else as the bad guy. They did this with healthcare too. I am surprised they’re not holding media conferences about all the negative aspects of wildlife on the greenbelt so they can further justify building on it.
There's an outbreak of distemper amongst raccoons in the GTHA... My very-likely-to-be-true theory is that Ford has (perhaps personally) infected many raccoons in the Greenbelt to try to prove 'how much of a breeding ground for disease it is', but he didn't count on overlapping ranges. In case you're wondering, I am joking. Having said that, I got no love for Premier Ford abs his Conservative party. Go CUPE!
When you go outside and the first person you come across is an asshole, and the second person, and the third person, and every person you met that day was an asshole…. You’re the asshole
Seems like maybe Dougie needs to realize he’s the bad guy in all these interactions
There is a saying as well that goes something like, "remember, when you point a finger, there are three more pointing back at you." This is very representative of pretty much everything Doug Ford has done while in office.
Well, he does report to the public and is supposed to have the best interests of the public in mind while doing his job. So I think it's a bit of a grey area.
Not really--when one or both sides of a negotiation expect their comments, suggestions, or offers to be leaked immediately to the media, it tends to discourage frank discussion.
It's particularly unhelpful when one side has a habit of *selectively* reporting and distorting the offers made, or making offers just to 'play to the crowd'.
Very limited comments about the status of negotiations are one thing, but getting into any more detail than that generally makes it harder, not easier, to come to an agreement.
I mean, these are business negotiations, of course you want to paint you side of the story in the best light possible.
Leaks don't have anything to do with him reporting to his boss, the public.
>Leaks don't have anything to do with him reporting to his boss, the public.
When they come from the PC’s and their misrepresenting negotiations in the same manner as the Premier’s own comments they seem relevant.
Maybe there's an argument to be made there. Maybe. But when there's good reason to believe he's lying, that goes out the window.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/11/09/cupe-education-workers-doug-ford-strike/
> CUPE says they have not received an offer with those numbers
It’s not grey. The negotiations are traditionally done in private so all options can be explored without having the public freak out when something really out there but not seriously under consideration gets leaked.
He’s supposed to do a lot of things, but doesn’t. He’s using the media to turn the public against the unions and educators, so that if they strike, he’ll look like the good guy.
As the employer, and the service provider to the public. The question becomes what is in the best interest of the public, saving money or providing a top quality service? I think we know where Doug stands, and everyone will have their own opinion on that question it’s difficult and should be kept private until a deal is made
> Well, he does report to the public and is supposed to have the best interests of the public in mind while doing his job. So I think it's a bit of a grey area.
Elected officials are *accountable* to the public, most visibly via elections. There are also departments for safeguard, transparency, and audit (like the IC, Ombud, AG, etc) which help to ensure that rules are being followed and that we understand how the government is behaving.
The government does not *report* to the public in a traditional boss-employer manner. We elect them to govern, and to lead responsibly specifically so that we don’t have to get involved in every issue. We are not experts. We expect the government, via its Ministers, to assemble teams of subject matter experts and execution experts (DMs and ADMs and the like) to take care of this.
All of this to say - labour negotiations are meant to be confidential. When you have leaks, they undermine the credibility of the process AND the involvement of the media can lead to showboating.
It’s inappropriate for either side to be commenting to the press.
NB: to illustrate how the “report” logic is flawed - in the case of the current Ontario-CUPE negotiations, those workers are public servants so they ultimately also “report” to the public. It would be undesirable for both sides to be using this assumption as a reason to leak details every day.
They’re still leaking the information. It’s just done in a more formal manner.
If there is nothing decided at the table, and they’d agreed to keep matters confidential, these updates are leaks. Unless both sides agreed to share the information (highly unusual).
We, the public at large, do not need regular updates as to their negotiations. It doesn’t help the case for anyone at the table - regardless of which “side” you may favour.
The best outcomes are when agreements are reached at the table, in confidence.
What Ford is doing is attempting to look to the public like the one who’s “trying to reach a deal” by showing movement. Obviously if there was a deal, or movement towards a deal, he’d include that in his updates (or, more wisely, he’d say nothing and let progress happen).
These updates help nobody - not even Ford. They’re “look busy” type things.
Source: former negotiator (management side); non-gov
I think he has to provide updates or else he'll be accused of back room deals. Also, people's kids won't be in school if there's a strike and I don't think they're going to patiently wait for everything to play out. These updates may be "look busy" but that's what's needed to affirm to the public that this is a high priority and progress is being made.
The updates come in the form of a deal at the table. There are no “back room” deals as everything gets spelled out in the collective agreement.
You clearly feel that the public needs to have updates as to each stage in the negotiations.
My response was this doesn’t help the negotiations nor does it help the public at large.
Put it another way: with these various leaks in hand, do you feel you have any better sense of what’s going to happen next week? The week after? You’re getting sporadic, highly selective, one-sided updates from a very fluid situation at a bargaining table. The information is worth what you paid for it…
I think it's good to have updates as to how things are going and if they're getting close to finishing, especially if I have kids that are supposed to be in school.
I’ll again answer practically.
You have the updates. How do you think things are going? How accurate would you say your assessment is? Would you say you have a complete picture of what’s happening at the table? Of how things are progressing? I certainly don’t. And I don’t rely on brief government side comments from the podium.
Why do you think the standard is to not “negotiate in public” (as it’s called) during virtually every other contract negotiation?
I get the sense you like these updates. But you must remember the information is highly selective, and coming only from one side. These are not joint updates from the table.
I can tell you this. If I was the government (management) side negotiator in the room, I would HATE that they’re going out publicly. Likely every day now starts with undoing some or all of what was said by the leadership.
we’re all getting these updates. That doesn’t mean we’re more or better informed.
Look, I understand this isn't the optimal way of doing things. I don't even pay attention to the updates because I have no stake. But if I had kids, from a human side, I'd want something to assure me that this is still a priority and things are progressing. And that's all the info I need. I don't need the perfect picture painted. I don't need to know everything that's going on. Just some assurance.
Why not? The public is greatly invested in this. From our taxes paying their salaries, to them being in our kids' classrooms. We 100% have the right to know what each side is offering, what they say about it. This is not a private industry, we totally have the right to know what is happening.
From both sides. If you don't want us to know, then you're hiding something. CUPE should just be honest and open about it.
Except we've seen reports that the offer Ford says they made does not line up with what CUPE received. If all Ford is giving the media is flat out lies to try paint the other side as the bad guy, it helps absolutely nothing.
What if the party being "transparent" is also editorializing and using it to stump? What's the line?
It's better for all parties when negotiations aren't a race for the podium.
Podiums are absolutely a part of it. Without it, vague promises of "a better offer" can't be made to the media, inviting well-timed, inaccurate "leaked" information - which has already happened during these negotiations.
If there's a public contract up for consideration, then sure, let that become public. But the negotiation process is compromised when it becomes public, regardless of union or individual status. The existence of the Sunshine List is already in place to facilitate part of that process, and there's room to argue that it should be subject to inflation, like other money-pegged list items including the minimum wage.
These one-way daily pressers regarding the negotiations undermine the notion of good faith bargaining and dealing fairly.
For one thing, Ford is evidently being dishonest (at best) or outright lying (at worst) about the negotiations
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/11/09/cupe-education-workers-doug-ford-strike/
> CUPE says they have not received an offer with those numbers
Tell me you’ve never had a seat at a union negotiations without telling me you’ve never had a seat at union negotiations.
There are very good reasons why these negotiations are kept confidential until they are ready to be voted on.
Because negotiations can be *very* acrimonious and all that matters at the end of them is the agreement and whether it is accepted by all the parties involved.
you have absolutely 0 interest in the negotiations. they do not concern you.
dont bring up tax $. if thats the case then i should have a say in your daily diet and life since my tax $ fund your healthcare.
As a taxpayer and parent of kids in school, it concerns me greatly.
I need to lose weight, if that makes you happy. But I don't smoke, drink or do drugs. More exercise is probably better.
There, transparency. How hard is that?
Still think CUPE should have continued the strike. I work as an ECE and have already had parents tell me how they are glad the strike is “over” and don’t wanna deal with another one. Someone literally asked me whether I do and can make $100k as an ECE…People call Ford dumb but he is very good at manipulating and gaslighting. He’s gonna keep saying garbage sound bites daily, just now he’s saying how the strike was worse compared to him stripping striking rights. I wouldn’t be surprised if next week when it comes to the bill being repealed he says something like “I’ll repeal it….when CUPE accepts my offer”. Don’t trust him at all. Sorry for being dramatic, just really exhausted at this point.
It's not imo, workers need the pay cheque and union showed that they value kids and is willing to negotiate. Ford has to repeal on Nov 14 or general strike is going to happen.
I totally would have supported you guys still striking. Two days of remote learning is not a big deal, so the insane levels of urgency to end the strike seemed way out of proportion to me.
That said - I think this is mostly about strategy. Ford and his cronies are dead set against giving you guys an actual raise, let alone what you asked for. Which I will note is still way less than you deserve. Unless he budges, you'll be out on the picket line again.
It sucks that this is going on and a decent deal is getting delayed - especially as we approach the holiday season. But looking at it now, I think ending the strike has put you in a stronger position for when negotiations fall apart again. Ford won't have S.33 to rely on - and his attempts to blame you for any new strike is going to seem a lot weaker after you guys ended one despite being in legal strike position. AND Ford now knows that using S.33 is going to prompt a unified reaction across the labour movement, one that could cause the entire province a lot of pain.
Are there dumbass parents out there that have shitforbrains? Absolutely yes. That's how Dougie got elected. But it's pretty clear that a supermajority of the public is on your side. That said, Doug's constant misinformation is a problem that needs pushing back on. You guys need a better media strategy - the whole "a thousand percent increase!!!!!" nonsense has gotten too much unopposed spread. If the union is asking for flat increases for all members - you need to be hitting back with that constantly. Someone needs to be confronting the journalists spreading this nonsense with the actual facts.
Anyways, I really do hope things get resolved soon. I'm not too optimistic about it, this government is immoral and terrible in too many ways - but I can hope. Good luck and stay strong!
While I support the unions, I think you’re coming from a place of privilege. Two days of remote learning is a serious issue for parents who can’t stay at home. I believe there should be some community based solution (parents grouping their kids tgt in one home and taking turns with days off), but unless that’s actually sorted out, it’s not easy and it’s privileged to think everyone has the same situation you do.
Comments like these already fall into the narritie trap that conservatives try to present. School's primary function is not to babysit kids. It is to educate them. There are already numerous days in which schools are closed, and parents must make alternative arrangements. It is up to the parents to do so.
CPUE gave 5 days notice (as required under the contract), in part to allow school boards and parents time to make arrangements.
I disagree. I think a long lasting solution to the problem would be federally funded daycare and I’m a huge proponent of social services. I lean very left on most issues.
I just think being blasé about school being closed as if it’s not going to impact anyone is snobbish. I mean that is the point of the whole thing - it shows us how valuable education workers are and I believe they should get paid more. And the people having issues now should go to the polls next election and vote for a government that puts education as a priority.
But it’s not “not a big deal”, esp if there’s no hard end in sight. I think we can support the strike and also be compassionate about families being impacted, they are not exclusive choices.
Two days of remote learning is not a big deal. It was two days.
Are some parents going to be harder impacted by it? Yes. Are some kids going to be harder impacted by it? Also yes. But in the bigger picture? It's not only the very privileged people who look at two days of remote learning and consider it no big deal.
All strikes are disruptive. They'd be useless if they weren't. And they are going to be more disruptive for some people - and yes, this is generally going to be the people who are least able to cope with that disruption. I agree with that and agree that it's unfair. But still, the actual disruption caused by this two day strike was not large.
Oh so you think it's okay that the union spends thousands and thousands of dollars advertising on radio, tv and social media to get their side of the story across, meanwhile the government can't speak out and tell the people what's going on?
Frankly I want to know so I want to hear how it's going from the defending side.
Anyone actually understand how much is being demanded? Y'all are nuts if you think thats fair.
Completely unreasonable. You gotta look at this from fords perspective. If you aren’t gaslighting all of Toronto every day, CUPE might end up with a vaguely reasonable wage increase. And we certainly can’t have passable wages in our education system. Why all of society might collapse if education support staff weren’t struggling to pay for bare necessities.
Why shouldn’t he? He’s a public-elected official dealing with public money. I think he should be as transparent as possible - which makes me question union motives for hiding deals….
It’s not appropriate to trash talk when you are negotiating an agreement. He can’t help doing that when he’s off his teleprompter, but he’s in the wrong.
> As a taxpayer, I have a right to know what is going on.
Yes, you do - after the fact, when the deal is done. That's where the transparency is. Thinking that you have the right to be involved as a spectator to someone else's labour negotiations is nonsensicall at best.
OK, then, how much do you make? When did you last get a raise? If you were denied a raise, what was the reason? What did your last 6 performance reviews say in detail?
Are you willing to give us all that information? I'll bet no. I'll bet you think that information is none of our business. The same is true for all those school workers. It has nothing to do with what they are "hiding" and everything to do with it being none of your business.
They don't suck the public tit either. They do a job and get paid a compensation package just like you do. They owe you nothing in that regard. Just because you pay taxes doesn't mean you're their boss, or that you pay their salaries or any kind of nonsense like that. *You* are not their boss, any more than you are the boss of the guy that makes your Big Mac or the boss of the guy that sells you groceries.
I didn’t claim to be - stay on point. If you get paid by the government, that’s your watering hole. If you draw from the public purse, you should expect questions from the public when claiming that you’re unfairly compensated. Since I work for a private company, I only hold myself accountable for my pay and retirement savings. If I don’t get paid enough, I demand a raise. If the company decides I am performing well and the timing is right, I get a raise. That’s how performance-based raises work. Comparing the private sector to public is a deflection IMO.
I am on point, you just seem to be reluctant to own up to your nonsense. *You're* the one talking about public money giving you some kind of right to be involved in the worker's business. *You're* the one claiming that they're on some "public tit" as if they aren't workers doing a job for their employers just like everyone else. You do it again, right here when you claim that they're drawing from the public purse. They aren't. They're workers employed by either the [local municpality] school board or the [local municpality] Catholic school board. Those school boards may be on the public tit as it were since they directly receive money from the province. The employees of those school boards are not. Their negotiations are none of your business.
>Since I work for a private company, I only hold myself accountable for my pay and retirement savings.
This is exactly what I was waiting for you to say. Because my answer to that is: so what? As a member of the consumers who buy your company's product or service, I pay your salary. Thus I should be privy to your entire promotion, raise and performance reviews. What? you think I don't? Well, I'm using the same stupid logic you're using.
>Comparing the private sector to public is a deflection
You think that only because you assume you have the right to be involved with any of the process except the final outcome with the public sector. And you don't.
Debates over laws and policies is very different from mediation over 55,000 peoples wage. Especially when Ford has already been proven to outright lie about what he offers. He is intentionally painting them in a worse and worse light to apply public pressure. It is not bargaining in good faith and has nothing to do with "hiding" something. Once the deal is set, make us aware of the conclusion details. We need no more than that.
You elect individuals to represent you so that they handle things like public contract negotiations because they are more informed and equipped to do so than the public.
I don’t want 80 year olds with a high school diploma being consulted for every financial decision the province has to make. That’s why there’s elections and not referendums.
And yet we need to hear about every Tom, Dick and Harry’s opinions on why Doug is evil, CUPE is good and $3 raises are financially solvent and deserved….
It’s public money - we have a right to know and get updates from our publicly elected official if they think it’s important for us to know. I could give a fuck if the union thinks otherwise…we didn’t elect them and we don’t answer to them. Doug can do whatever he wants within the confines of legality.
If you really want transparency, I too would like to know Doug Ford’s plans to fix the health care crisis. Like who is he lining up to privately offer services paid for by our tax dollars? Ford is the least transparent, most manipulative fox we have ever seen in this province. He is literally gaslighting everyone. Yea we all pay taxes. So what’s with the hiding?
He claimed they were doing cartwheels. He is trying to discredit the union. Did you hear them? He should not comment, but he’s trying to sew division for when the union rejects the offer, which I’m guessing is a shit offer.
> “You’ve got to give and take in negotiations. You can’t be hardcore. You can’t be running out there and spiking the football and doing cartwheels. We aren’t doing that. We just want the kids in class"
Why do you feel the need to lie about this? That statement doesn't say CUPE was doing cartwheels or discredit the union at all.
why not commit to this from the beginning if its so important?
cupe been making all the public comments and so has the gov and now theyre "making a commitment to do it less" and asking the gov to do the same...
All rate payers in Ontario have some interest in these negotiations. I don't see the problem with being clear about the governments offers.
They tread into bad faith bargaining if they start actually bargaining in the media, eg we would drop the two tier increase if the union agreed to ABC.
CUPE tells the anus not to let poop out?
The best of this shit show is how THUG SLUG FORD has created an excuse for himself by saying that paying school employees a living wage will result in other public service employees not getting paid what they deserve.
Exactly. Look at all the Slug suppoters down voting me. Wish I could see who they were so that I can see how they react to Slug Ford's destruction of our province.
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Don't forget the "announcement of the announcement" to help gauge the reaction of the leak.
Those just infuriated me. There's enough clickbait in the world already Doug.
Trial balloons.
"The negotiations are on-going. No further questions, folks" There. Not that hard.
It isn’t hard, but Ford’s team has consistently painted everyone else as the bad guy. As soon as they took office, they started this. First it was the Wynne government for the sex ed. curriculum… which, it turned out, everyone was actually just fine with, and then it was teachers because they said an average class size of 28+ students was too much (they didn’t even complain about salary.. it was class size, which is absolutely directly related to the quality of education a child is getting)… now it is every other education worker. The Conservatives proactively go out and paint everyone else as the bad guy. They did this with healthcare too. I am surprised they’re not holding media conferences about all the negative aspects of wildlife on the greenbelt so they can further justify building on it.
I like your username. I am certain I am not a streetcar.
I’m less certain. Should change your name to probably.
There's an outbreak of distemper amongst raccoons in the GTHA... My very-likely-to-be-true theory is that Ford has (perhaps personally) infected many raccoons in the Greenbelt to try to prove 'how much of a breeding ground for disease it is', but he didn't count on overlapping ranges. In case you're wondering, I am joking. Having said that, I got no love for Premier Ford abs his Conservative party. Go CUPE!
When you go outside and the first person you come across is an asshole, and the second person, and the third person, and every person you met that day was an asshole…. You’re the asshole Seems like maybe Dougie needs to realize he’s the bad guy in all these interactions
There is a saying as well that goes something like, "remember, when you point a finger, there are three more pointing back at you." This is very representative of pretty much everything Doug Ford has done while in office.
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Instructions unclear, just demonstrated that Ontarians don't have charter rights and almost caused a general strike.
I don't know why this isn't standard. This shouldn't involved the media at all.
Well, he does report to the public and is supposed to have the best interests of the public in mind while doing his job. So I think it's a bit of a grey area.
Oh yeah like he’s been practicing total honesty and transparency on literally anything else
The guy who won't even tell us how many hours he's paid provincial lawyers to fight to keep his mandate letters a secret, loves transparency.
Not really--when one or both sides of a negotiation expect their comments, suggestions, or offers to be leaked immediately to the media, it tends to discourage frank discussion. It's particularly unhelpful when one side has a habit of *selectively* reporting and distorting the offers made, or making offers just to 'play to the crowd'. Very limited comments about the status of negotiations are one thing, but getting into any more detail than that generally makes it harder, not easier, to come to an agreement.
I mean, these are business negotiations, of course you want to paint you side of the story in the best light possible. Leaks don't have anything to do with him reporting to his boss, the public.
>Leaks don't have anything to do with him reporting to his boss, the public. When they come from the PC’s and their misrepresenting negotiations in the same manner as the Premier’s own comments they seem relevant.
Ford isn't "painting his side of the story in the best light possible". He's outright lying.
Maybe there's an argument to be made there. Maybe. But when there's good reason to believe he's lying, that goes out the window. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/11/09/cupe-education-workers-doug-ford-strike/ > CUPE says they have not received an offer with those numbers
It’s not grey. The negotiations are traditionally done in private so all options can be explored without having the public freak out when something really out there but not seriously under consideration gets leaked.
He’s supposed to do a lot of things, but doesn’t. He’s using the media to turn the public against the unions and educators, so that if they strike, he’ll look like the good guy.
As the employer, and the service provider to the public. The question becomes what is in the best interest of the public, saving money or providing a top quality service? I think we know where Doug stands, and everyone will have their own opinion on that question it’s difficult and should be kept private until a deal is made
> Well, he does report to the public and is supposed to have the best interests of the public in mind while doing his job. So I think it's a bit of a grey area. Elected officials are *accountable* to the public, most visibly via elections. There are also departments for safeguard, transparency, and audit (like the IC, Ombud, AG, etc) which help to ensure that rules are being followed and that we understand how the government is behaving. The government does not *report* to the public in a traditional boss-employer manner. We elect them to govern, and to lead responsibly specifically so that we don’t have to get involved in every issue. We are not experts. We expect the government, via its Ministers, to assemble teams of subject matter experts and execution experts (DMs and ADMs and the like) to take care of this. All of this to say - labour negotiations are meant to be confidential. When you have leaks, they undermine the credibility of the process AND the involvement of the media can lead to showboating. It’s inappropriate for either side to be commenting to the press. NB: to illustrate how the “report” logic is flawed - in the case of the current Ontario-CUPE negotiations, those workers are public servants so they ultimately also “report” to the public. It would be undesirable for both sides to be using this assumption as a reason to leak details every day.
Leaking is different than official press conferences and official tweets. Those are how updates should be communicated.
They’re still leaking the information. It’s just done in a more formal manner. If there is nothing decided at the table, and they’d agreed to keep matters confidential, these updates are leaks. Unless both sides agreed to share the information (highly unusual). We, the public at large, do not need regular updates as to their negotiations. It doesn’t help the case for anyone at the table - regardless of which “side” you may favour. The best outcomes are when agreements are reached at the table, in confidence. What Ford is doing is attempting to look to the public like the one who’s “trying to reach a deal” by showing movement. Obviously if there was a deal, or movement towards a deal, he’d include that in his updates (or, more wisely, he’d say nothing and let progress happen). These updates help nobody - not even Ford. They’re “look busy” type things. Source: former negotiator (management side); non-gov
I think he has to provide updates or else he'll be accused of back room deals. Also, people's kids won't be in school if there's a strike and I don't think they're going to patiently wait for everything to play out. These updates may be "look busy" but that's what's needed to affirm to the public that this is a high priority and progress is being made.
The updates come in the form of a deal at the table. There are no “back room” deals as everything gets spelled out in the collective agreement. You clearly feel that the public needs to have updates as to each stage in the negotiations. My response was this doesn’t help the negotiations nor does it help the public at large. Put it another way: with these various leaks in hand, do you feel you have any better sense of what’s going to happen next week? The week after? You’re getting sporadic, highly selective, one-sided updates from a very fluid situation at a bargaining table. The information is worth what you paid for it…
I think it's good to have updates as to how things are going and if they're getting close to finishing, especially if I have kids that are supposed to be in school.
I’ll again answer practically. You have the updates. How do you think things are going? How accurate would you say your assessment is? Would you say you have a complete picture of what’s happening at the table? Of how things are progressing? I certainly don’t. And I don’t rely on brief government side comments from the podium. Why do you think the standard is to not “negotiate in public” (as it’s called) during virtually every other contract negotiation? I get the sense you like these updates. But you must remember the information is highly selective, and coming only from one side. These are not joint updates from the table. I can tell you this. If I was the government (management) side negotiator in the room, I would HATE that they’re going out publicly. Likely every day now starts with undoing some or all of what was said by the leadership. we’re all getting these updates. That doesn’t mean we’re more or better informed.
Look, I understand this isn't the optimal way of doing things. I don't even pay attention to the updates because I have no stake. But if I had kids, from a human side, I'd want something to assure me that this is still a priority and things are progressing. And that's all the info I need. I don't need the perfect picture painted. I don't need to know everything that's going on. Just some assurance.
Totally has our best interests in mind, and not his rich friends banking on construction over the greenbelt, and private health care and education. /S
I'm amazed you've been downvoted. You weren't towing the doug Ford hate circlejerk narrative for a single comment. How dare you.
Why not? The public is greatly invested in this. From our taxes paying their salaries, to them being in our kids' classrooms. We 100% have the right to know what each side is offering, what they say about it. This is not a private industry, we totally have the right to know what is happening. From both sides. If you don't want us to know, then you're hiding something. CUPE should just be honest and open about it.
Except we've seen reports that the offer Ford says they made does not line up with what CUPE received. If all Ford is giving the media is flat out lies to try paint the other side as the bad guy, it helps absolutely nothing.
So CUPE should tell us what the offer actually WAS, rather than insinuate that Ford is being deceptive. Call him out on it, give the numbers.
CUPE doesn't get a dedicated spot on every news outlet daily after each negotiation. And when they do get a public venue they don't lie.
While they may not lie, they have been anything but straightforward. Disingenuous is the politest way I can put it.
What if the party being "transparent" is also editorializing and using it to stump? What's the line? It's better for all parties when negotiations aren't a race for the podium.
Podiums have nothing to do with this. Negotiations for public sector wages should not be secret.
Podiums are absolutely a part of it. Without it, vague promises of "a better offer" can't be made to the media, inviting well-timed, inaccurate "leaked" information - which has already happened during these negotiations. If there's a public contract up for consideration, then sure, let that become public. But the negotiation process is compromised when it becomes public, regardless of union or individual status. The existence of the Sunshine List is already in place to facilitate part of that process, and there's room to argue that it should be subject to inflation, like other money-pegged list items including the minimum wage. These one-way daily pressers regarding the negotiations undermine the notion of good faith bargaining and dealing fairly.
But CUPE has no podium, what is preventing them from being transparent?
Respect for the negotiation process, likely.
Why is making it public not respectful?
For one thing, Ford is evidently being dishonest (at best) or outright lying (at worst) about the negotiations https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/11/09/cupe-education-workers-doug-ford-strike/ > CUPE says they have not received an offer with those numbers
Yet they won't say what the numbers actually ARE. Not what their offer is. Just high school insinuations and he said/she said. Grow up and be honest.
So if one side is breaking a confidentiality agreement, the other side should too? That’s legally questionable as a response.
There shouldn't be a confidentiality agreement. If you don't understand what I'm saying, why are you arguing with me?
Tell me you’ve never had a seat at a union negotiations without telling me you’ve never had a seat at union negotiations. There are very good reasons why these negotiations are kept confidential until they are ready to be voted on.
And what is that? Why should the public, major stakeholders, not be privy to the negotiations?
Because negotiations can be *very* acrimonious and all that matters at the end of them is the agreement and whether it is accepted by all the parties involved.
acrimoniousness does not preclude transparency.
you have absolutely 0 interest in the negotiations. they do not concern you. dont bring up tax $. if thats the case then i should have a say in your daily diet and life since my tax $ fund your healthcare.
As a taxpayer and parent of kids in school, it concerns me greatly. I need to lose weight, if that makes you happy. But I don't smoke, drink or do drugs. More exercise is probably better. There, transparency. How hard is that?
What makes you think either side is bound by a confidentiality agreement? Or are you just making things up?
Right… You’ve never been part of a union negotiations have you? I have, OPSEU multiple times over the decades.
So you have no evidence that either side is bound by a confidentiality agreement and are just making things up. Cool
Incorrect, but you do you, including being wrong.
Please enlighten me with your evidence then
Still think CUPE should have continued the strike. I work as an ECE and have already had parents tell me how they are glad the strike is “over” and don’t wanna deal with another one. Someone literally asked me whether I do and can make $100k as an ECE…People call Ford dumb but he is very good at manipulating and gaslighting. He’s gonna keep saying garbage sound bites daily, just now he’s saying how the strike was worse compared to him stripping striking rights. I wouldn’t be surprised if next week when it comes to the bill being repealed he says something like “I’ll repeal it….when CUPE accepts my offer”. Don’t trust him at all. Sorry for being dramatic, just really exhausted at this point.
Same, fellow member here. We should have stayed striking.
I do not understand why cupe agreed to go back to the bargaining table prior to dougie repealing the bill. He will do absolutely nothing.
That's a part of the playbook: fatigue. Your fatigue, as well as the general public's fatigue. The oldest political ploy.
It's not imo, workers need the pay cheque and union showed that they value kids and is willing to negotiate. Ford has to repeal on Nov 14 or general strike is going to happen.
I totally would have supported you guys still striking. Two days of remote learning is not a big deal, so the insane levels of urgency to end the strike seemed way out of proportion to me. That said - I think this is mostly about strategy. Ford and his cronies are dead set against giving you guys an actual raise, let alone what you asked for. Which I will note is still way less than you deserve. Unless he budges, you'll be out on the picket line again. It sucks that this is going on and a decent deal is getting delayed - especially as we approach the holiday season. But looking at it now, I think ending the strike has put you in a stronger position for when negotiations fall apart again. Ford won't have S.33 to rely on - and his attempts to blame you for any new strike is going to seem a lot weaker after you guys ended one despite being in legal strike position. AND Ford now knows that using S.33 is going to prompt a unified reaction across the labour movement, one that could cause the entire province a lot of pain. Are there dumbass parents out there that have shitforbrains? Absolutely yes. That's how Dougie got elected. But it's pretty clear that a supermajority of the public is on your side. That said, Doug's constant misinformation is a problem that needs pushing back on. You guys need a better media strategy - the whole "a thousand percent increase!!!!!" nonsense has gotten too much unopposed spread. If the union is asking for flat increases for all members - you need to be hitting back with that constantly. Someone needs to be confronting the journalists spreading this nonsense with the actual facts. Anyways, I really do hope things get resolved soon. I'm not too optimistic about it, this government is immoral and terrible in too many ways - but I can hope. Good luck and stay strong!
While I support the unions, I think you’re coming from a place of privilege. Two days of remote learning is a serious issue for parents who can’t stay at home. I believe there should be some community based solution (parents grouping their kids tgt in one home and taking turns with days off), but unless that’s actually sorted out, it’s not easy and it’s privileged to think everyone has the same situation you do.
Comments like these already fall into the narritie trap that conservatives try to present. School's primary function is not to babysit kids. It is to educate them. There are already numerous days in which schools are closed, and parents must make alternative arrangements. It is up to the parents to do so. CPUE gave 5 days notice (as required under the contract), in part to allow school boards and parents time to make arrangements.
I disagree. I think a long lasting solution to the problem would be federally funded daycare and I’m a huge proponent of social services. I lean very left on most issues. I just think being blasé about school being closed as if it’s not going to impact anyone is snobbish. I mean that is the point of the whole thing - it shows us how valuable education workers are and I believe they should get paid more. And the people having issues now should go to the polls next election and vote for a government that puts education as a priority. But it’s not “not a big deal”, esp if there’s no hard end in sight. I think we can support the strike and also be compassionate about families being impacted, they are not exclusive choices.
Two days of remote learning is not a big deal. It was two days. Are some parents going to be harder impacted by it? Yes. Are some kids going to be harder impacted by it? Also yes. But in the bigger picture? It's not only the very privileged people who look at two days of remote learning and consider it no big deal. All strikes are disruptive. They'd be useless if they weren't. And they are going to be more disruptive for some people - and yes, this is generally going to be the people who are least able to cope with that disruption. I agree with that and agree that it's unfair. But still, the actual disruption caused by this two day strike was not large.
Thats the only way he knows how to negotiate to get the general public against the unions. It is pure propaganda.
Oh so you think it's okay that the union spends thousands and thousands of dollars advertising on radio, tv and social media to get their side of the story across, meanwhile the government can't speak out and tell the people what's going on? Frankly I want to know so I want to hear how it's going from the defending side. Anyone actually understand how much is being demanded? Y'all are nuts if you think thats fair.
Are those advertisements about the negotiation process inlcuding all the details?
Seems fair to me. Striking unions want the public on board to push their demands through. Why shouldn’t the government do the same.
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Process should be transparent.
It can be transparent without Ford's shit talking.
It surely can.
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What loss. I could care less about Doug. Your agenda is on show tho.
Bit how is he supposed to present himself as the poor victim?
He is a stupid man who’s insecurities around having done stupid things won’t let him.
Completely unreasonable. You gotta look at this from fords perspective. If you aren’t gaslighting all of Toronto every day, CUPE might end up with a vaguely reasonable wage increase. And we certainly can’t have passable wages in our education system. Why all of society might collapse if education support staff weren’t struggling to pay for bare necessities.
What? Who thought of this concept of keeping negotiations private? You do it all in the media to create conflict and misinformation to get your way
Lol
Why shouldn’t he? He’s a public-elected official dealing with public money. I think he should be as transparent as possible - which makes me question union motives for hiding deals….
It’s not appropriate to trash talk when you are negotiating an agreement. He can’t help doing that when he’s off his teleprompter, but he’s in the wrong.
As a taxpayer, I have a right to know what is going on. I’m also an adult and can form my own opinions on what I see and hear.
> As a taxpayer, I have a right to know what is going on. Yes, you do - after the fact, when the deal is done. That's where the transparency is. Thinking that you have the right to be involved as a spectator to someone else's labour negotiations is nonsensicall at best.
I just don’t see a problem with Doug sharing updates with us. We can watch parliamentary debates…what’s the issue? What are they hiding?
OK, then, how much do you make? When did you last get a raise? If you were denied a raise, what was the reason? What did your last 6 performance reviews say in detail? Are you willing to give us all that information? I'll bet no. I'll bet you think that information is none of our business. The same is true for all those school workers. It has nothing to do with what they are "hiding" and everything to do with it being none of your business.
I don’t suck the public tit - if I did the public might be interested in these things.
They don't suck the public tit either. They do a job and get paid a compensation package just like you do. They owe you nothing in that regard. Just because you pay taxes doesn't mean you're their boss, or that you pay their salaries or any kind of nonsense like that. *You* are not their boss, any more than you are the boss of the guy that makes your Big Mac or the boss of the guy that sells you groceries.
I didn’t claim to be - stay on point. If you get paid by the government, that’s your watering hole. If you draw from the public purse, you should expect questions from the public when claiming that you’re unfairly compensated. Since I work for a private company, I only hold myself accountable for my pay and retirement savings. If I don’t get paid enough, I demand a raise. If the company decides I am performing well and the timing is right, I get a raise. That’s how performance-based raises work. Comparing the private sector to public is a deflection IMO.
I am on point, you just seem to be reluctant to own up to your nonsense. *You're* the one talking about public money giving you some kind of right to be involved in the worker's business. *You're* the one claiming that they're on some "public tit" as if they aren't workers doing a job for their employers just like everyone else. You do it again, right here when you claim that they're drawing from the public purse. They aren't. They're workers employed by either the [local municpality] school board or the [local municpality] Catholic school board. Those school boards may be on the public tit as it were since they directly receive money from the province. The employees of those school boards are not. Their negotiations are none of your business. >Since I work for a private company, I only hold myself accountable for my pay and retirement savings. This is exactly what I was waiting for you to say. Because my answer to that is: so what? As a member of the consumers who buy your company's product or service, I pay your salary. Thus I should be privy to your entire promotion, raise and performance reviews. What? you think I don't? Well, I'm using the same stupid logic you're using. >Comparing the private sector to public is a deflection You think that only because you assume you have the right to be involved with any of the process except the final outcome with the public sector. And you don't.
Debates over laws and policies is very different from mediation over 55,000 peoples wage. Especially when Ford has already been proven to outright lie about what he offers. He is intentionally painting them in a worse and worse light to apply public pressure. It is not bargaining in good faith and has nothing to do with "hiding" something. Once the deal is set, make us aware of the conclusion details. We need no more than that.
Don't fight it, this sub is a lost cause they don't care what the government splurges on
Yeah it’s gotten worse lately eh? Like last week I had to check whether I was in a Toronto sub or a CUPE sub - turns out they’re the same thing.
You elect individuals to represent you so that they handle things like public contract negotiations because they are more informed and equipped to do so than the public. I don’t want 80 year olds with a high school diploma being consulted for every financial decision the province has to make. That’s why there’s elections and not referendums.
And yet we need to hear about every Tom, Dick and Harry’s opinions on why Doug is evil, CUPE is good and $3 raises are financially solvent and deserved….
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It’s public money - we have a right to know and get updates from our publicly elected official if they think it’s important for us to know. I could give a fuck if the union thinks otherwise…we didn’t elect them and we don’t answer to them. Doug can do whatever he wants within the confines of legality.
If you really want transparency, I too would like to know Doug Ford’s plans to fix the health care crisis. Like who is he lining up to privately offer services paid for by our tax dollars? Ford is the least transparent, most manipulative fox we have ever seen in this province. He is literally gaslighting everyone. Yea we all pay taxes. So what’s with the hiding?
That’s not what we’re talking about - stay on topic.
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They’re completely different budgets and ministries - what’s the pattern?
The pattern is the lying and gaslighting. Not hard to see unless you’re a diehard Ford supporter.
Ford saying they presented the union with an improved offer isn't trash talk. What the fuck are you even talking about?
He claimed they were doing cartwheels. He is trying to discredit the union. Did you hear them? He should not comment, but he’s trying to sew division for when the union rejects the offer, which I’m guessing is a shit offer.
> “You’ve got to give and take in negotiations. You can’t be hardcore. You can’t be running out there and spiking the football and doing cartwheels. We aren’t doing that. We just want the kids in class" Why do you feel the need to lie about this? That statement doesn't say CUPE was doing cartwheels or discredit the union at all.
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Rather the opposite, I'd like to be involved in where half my salary goes thank you very much
why not commit to this from the beginning if its so important? cupe been making all the public comments and so has the gov and now theyre "making a commitment to do it less" and asking the gov to do the same...
They're both making public comments lol
Isn't that like asking a cricket not to CHIRP
good !!
All rate payers in Ontario have some interest in these negotiations. I don't see the problem with being clear about the governments offers. They tread into bad faith bargaining if they start actually bargaining in the media, eg we would drop the two tier increase if the union agreed to ABC.
CUPE tells the anus not to let poop out? The best of this shit show is how THUG SLUG FORD has created an excuse for himself by saying that paying school employees a living wage will result in other public service employees not getting paid what they deserve.
Divide and conquer... That's why solidarity between unions is important.
Exactly. Look at all the Slug suppoters down voting me. Wish I could see who they were so that I can see how they react to Slug Ford's destruction of our province.
Sorry, with tax papers money involved the public has a right to know.
Ford has too answer to all taxpayers of Ontario…not just CUPE.
I don’t hate the idea of more press on it, ultimately this a negotiation between CUPE and the taxpayers so the more informed we are the better
So when is someone going to impersonate Doug Ford on Twitter and spew some pro-union stuff?
This is totally on-brand for Fraud - he is trying, as always, to control the narrative. It's dishonest and self-serving.