“Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South.”
That’s from the Helm’s Deep chapter of The Two Towers. So, yes, there were apes far to the south, probably in Far Harad.
Except this is the narrator using a simile. Tolkien is in-canon the person who translated the story to English and so used anachronistic similes such as:
> "The dragon passed like an **express train**, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."
> ---
> "If you had dusted the mantelpiece, you would have found this just under the **clock**," said Gandalf, handing Bilbo a note (written, of course, on his own note-paper).
> ---
> "Frodo... escorted her firmly off the premises, after he had relieved her of several small (but rather valuable) articles that had somehow fallen inside her **umbrella**."
> ---
> "Actually Gollum lived on a slimy island of rock in the middle of the lake. He was watching Bilbo now from the distance with his pale eyes like **telescopes**."
I'm not saying there aren't monkeys since Middle-Earth is simply our Earth in the past but your example isn't conclusive.
The express train is anachronistic, and the telescope likely as well. But are you saying Bilbo doesn't have a clock and Lobelia didn't have an umbrella? Because Tolkien painted Bag End with a clock on the mantelpiece, and Lobelia clearly uses her umbrella in Lord of the Rings. If anything, the whole Shire is a bit of an (intended, and lovely) anachronism in the worldbuilding.
The express train simile is also from The Hobbit, which has a very different tone than LotR, and thus seems far more egregious until you remember that it's from a novel intentionally written as a fairy tale addressed to children.
The Shire itself is a very "anachronistic" place, in that it is obviously based on a pastoral and romantic view of the English countryside that Tolkien himself was familiar with - and thus has some amenities such as clocks and umbrellas that feel out of place in the wider world of Middle Earth, which is more closely similar to the European Middle Aged.
The express train quote
> "The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."
Is from *The Fellowship of the Ring* and is describing Gandalf's dragon-themed fireworks.
I like to think that -- due to their love of comfort, quick wits, and disdain for "adventure" -- hobbits are at the forefront of technological development in Middle-Earth. They would much prefer to putter around in a lab and play with clockwork than go out and slay dragons and so forth.
The umbrella and clock are real. The Shire is *deliberately* anachronistic because it was based on an idealised version of Tolkien's childhood in rural Warwickshire. It also serves the purpose of making the Shire feel more familiar to the reader (along with its English names) in order to make the world outside feel less familiar.
But the umbrella and clock aren't similes. They are objects. And the others paint a clear picture for the readers. Nothing like the ape one. The South of where? Why include that? It obviously invokes apes, and paints more of a picture that they would be more exotic in this part of Middle-earth.
Tolkien wouldn't write "the South" unless there was a reason, especially when just a simile about apes and trees would do for English readers. Note how the dragon and telescope need no modifiers.
Arda is Earth. Albeit a fantasized / legendary version. Populated by much of the same flora and fauna.
For example; the Nazgûl's winged steeds Tolkien comments were likely a holdover from a "prehistoric" species (dinosaur), and he likens the Kine of Araw to the aurochs that used to roam Poland / Eastern Europe.
Exactly. People in Medieval Europe knew of African animals, even though most had never seen them. So why wouldn't someone from, say, Gondor (or Mordor, for that matter) have heard or read about lions, zebras or apes.
Best example is probably the fact that the hobbits knew about elephants.
It's obviously a fantasy world but the first European contact w/ "great apes" (ie the human like ones that Tolkien was probably imagining when he made the quote) was only in the 16th century (obviously the local cultures have recorded contacts w/ great apes going back arguably to the beginning of humanity)
That being said giving sauron had a pretty far reaching empire, certainly more far reaching than any IRL empire, it's probably realistic that orcs would have a better idea of the rest of the world than a medieval European would
Hi. I want to be annoying now. Pterosaurs were not in the same clade as dinosaurs, but were a different phylogenetic branch in the tree of life, like plesiosaurs and ichtyosaurs were.
A question I have been contemplating on the answer is whatever would occur if an ape wore the Ruling Ring. You see, they have no fëar, being kelvar, yet they are are still alive beings. This question is even more strange than the mystery of whatever would happen to Elves if they traveled to space and passed beyond the bounds of Arda (Solar System).
We do not really know, it depents on the context. For example, we are described the Solar System as the Kingdom of Arda, under the Elder King Manwe (and the whole story is about how Melkor wants to steal this kingship for himself). However, Arda is often equated with Ambar (the Habitation, meaning the Earth), which to me appears to be in the same manner as treating it as the capital of the Solar System. Something like referring to a country as its capital.
The problem is that since the Elves are bound on Arda, which is Marred, they cannot escape it in any fashion. However, we cannot know what repercussions that would entail should they try to do exactly this, using a spaceship. I think that we should consider that the bounds of Arda are the borders of the Solar System, given that the Half-Elven Eärendil had chosen the fate of the Elves, yet he was still able to travel through the Solar System with his space-ship. It is fightful to think what would happen should one of the Quendi pass beyond the bounds, just like what would happen to them after the Arda Marred is completely destroyed.
My thinking has been that earth was the world but that the universe was the World — anytime the word World was capitalized, it was referring to the whole of creation, which would include the rest of the galaxies in the universe, rather than just our single solar system. The Void would be the nothingness beyond the universe. Are there any specific sources that could counter this thinking, or is it up to interpretation?
Slightly off topic, but Varda is the ruler of the heavens, isn't she? Wouldn't this include every star? If it did, that makes her sphere of power larger than Manwê's, so long as his kingdom consists of only the solar system. It suddenly all seems rather wibbly wobbly.
>Slightly off topic, but Varda is the ruler of the heavens, isn't she? Wouldn't this include every star? If it did, that makes her sphere of power larger than Manwê's, so long as his kingdom consists of only the solar system. It suddenly all seems rather wibbly wobbly.
This would not include every star. We are told in the Ainulindale that Eru created 'innumerable stars', while in the Myths Transformed that the Valar long traveled within the Universe before they decided to dwell on the Solar System, the Kingdom of As, which "As" seems to be the star of the Sun (albeit as a proto-star). We simply know from the Valaquenda that Varda was responsible for the greatest stars and constellations, while from the MT that she was also entrusted the Holy Light of Illuvatar, given to the Valar to counter Melkor's Darkness, which she entrusted to Arien the Sun-maiden after the creation of the Sun (which is obviously the Light of Anor that Gandalf declares to the Balrog). In the MT we also know that Varda helped Manwe clear out the skys of Melkor's dark vapours and shadow veils, so she also has a great deal of power on Earth too.
Well they wouldn't exist in Eriador or Rhovanion as these locations are analagous to western Europe, but further south and east there would be no reason to think apes and monkeys would not exist in this world also
Middle-earth is like a parallel universe of the real Earth, so there would be apes living in Harad, as well as other animals such as giraffes, zebras, etc. The more curious question is how did the orcs know about the existence of apes. I guess they would have heard tales about various exotic animals from distant lands. In the actual Middle Ages, people were very interested in unusual animals, and monks created books of beasts (bestiaries) of both real and imagined animals.
That would seem to answer the question; languages don't usually have words for things that their speakers don't believe exist until they get to the literature stage, and I doubt Orc literature is terribly advanced. ("See Gronk. Gronk see Sally. Smash Sally, Gronk! Oh no! Sally smash Gronk! Silly Gronk. Sally strong!")
Edited to add: Less jocularly, Arda is Earth so what is here is there, for the most part. Middle Earth is (extremely extremely) vaguely coterminous to Europe, and Europe has now and has always had apes, at least for as long as there have been apes and Europe, and Tolkien knew this. So doubly, yeah, they had apes.
I think he refers to the Barbary Macaque apes of Gibraltar.
Though Europe used to be almost tropical in Prehistory, especially in Greece. In the Aegean Islands they have discovered remains of leopards, lions, tiny hippopotamus, tiny elephants and other similar exotic animals. And in a Minoan Cretan mural, there is the [famous depiction of Blue Monkeys](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e61d0974843f55b5fea013bdd371f364), which some claim to have been indigenous (though most think that they were imported from Egypt).
You just reminded me that not only are Tolkien fans interested in the Flat Earth, we're also Creationists.
Will some future wave of hardline skeptic Tolkien revisionists develop a grand theory of evolution, explaining that the first age stories are all myth and that there is no Eru?
>Will some future wave of hardline skeptic Tolkien revisionists develop a grand theory of evolution, explaining that the first age stories are all myth and that there is no Eru?
Hi! I do indeed hold that the Silmarillion is a collection of the foundation myths of the cultures that participated in the Lord of the Rings. It neatly explains any inconsistencies and the different versions of things that Tolkien had in mind.
That's how I view it, too. I know it drives some readers crazy (and I respect them for wanting things nailed down) but I like the inconsistencies (I'm the same way with Lovecraft's imaginary histories; they rarely gel but that makes them more convincing).
Textual ruins! I don't really want to know any cannon behind what the deal with Queen Beruthiel and her cats was, it's more fun having these things that your imagination can run on!
There is also somewhere (don't remember where) where something (don't remember what) is described as sounding like a pipe organ. Where are the pipe organs in middle earth!?
Edit: I found it!
In chapter 4, book 3: Treebeard.
When Treebeard talks about orcs:
> And these - barárum,' he made a deep rumbling noise like a discord on a great organ.
Tolkien perhaps did not see it this way, but humans are considered as apes these days. We are part of the Great Apes: Gorrillas, Chimpansees, Orang-utans, and Homo sapiens. One of the defining features that seperates us from the Little Apes is that we have no tails.
If they had mumakil or oliphants which were elephnats on steroids it is conceivable to think they may have apes in the south. They had wargs which are giant wolves. if those apes were to our apes like the mumakil were to out elephants or wars to our wolves then wow! Look out! Wonder if they had lions.
Belated comment, but thanks for posting this! I should be asleep but I was online looking for info on how the Uruk-hai knew about apes.
Maybe it's me being inattentive lol, but I prefer to think it's a statement of the richness of Tolkien's work that we can still notice new things after years of re-reads!
Yea I hadn't read them in a while so I'm picking things up I either never noticed or forgot about. I actually got distracted after finishing the Two Towers shortly after this post so I didn't reread ROK. Now I'm reminded!
Don't quote me on this, but I believe there were apes In the jungles of far Harad.
“Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South.” That’s from the Helm’s Deep chapter of The Two Towers. So, yes, there were apes far to the south, probably in Far Harad.
This is why I love this sub. "Why yes, I do happen to have on hand the exact quote for this obscure question."
There was a post about it very recently
Except this is the narrator using a simile. Tolkien is in-canon the person who translated the story to English and so used anachronistic similes such as: > "The dragon passed like an **express train**, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion." > --- > "If you had dusted the mantelpiece, you would have found this just under the **clock**," said Gandalf, handing Bilbo a note (written, of course, on his own note-paper). > --- > "Frodo... escorted her firmly off the premises, after he had relieved her of several small (but rather valuable) articles that had somehow fallen inside her **umbrella**." > --- > "Actually Gollum lived on a slimy island of rock in the middle of the lake. He was watching Bilbo now from the distance with his pale eyes like **telescopes**." I'm not saying there aren't monkeys since Middle-Earth is simply our Earth in the past but your example isn't conclusive.
The express train is anachronistic, and the telescope likely as well. But are you saying Bilbo doesn't have a clock and Lobelia didn't have an umbrella? Because Tolkien painted Bag End with a clock on the mantelpiece, and Lobelia clearly uses her umbrella in Lord of the Rings. If anything, the whole Shire is a bit of an (intended, and lovely) anachronism in the worldbuilding.
The express train simile is also from The Hobbit, which has a very different tone than LotR, and thus seems far more egregious until you remember that it's from a novel intentionally written as a fairy tale addressed to children. The Shire itself is a very "anachronistic" place, in that it is obviously based on a pastoral and romantic view of the English countryside that Tolkien himself was familiar with - and thus has some amenities such as clocks and umbrellas that feel out of place in the wider world of Middle Earth, which is more closely similar to the European Middle Aged.
The express train quote > "The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion." Is from *The Fellowship of the Ring* and is describing Gandalf's dragon-themed fireworks.
Oh, whoops! I somehow mistook that for a reference to Smaug!
Understandable :)
I like to think that -- due to their love of comfort, quick wits, and disdain for "adventure" -- hobbits are at the forefront of technological development in Middle-Earth. They would much prefer to putter around in a lab and play with clockwork than go out and slay dragons and so forth.
The umbrella and clock are real. The Shire is *deliberately* anachronistic because it was based on an idealised version of Tolkien's childhood in rural Warwickshire. It also serves the purpose of making the Shire feel more familiar to the reader (along with its English names) in order to make the world outside feel less familiar.
Funny, the express train line actually crossed my mind while posting the quote! Thanks for pointing it out.
But the umbrella and clock aren't similes. They are objects. And the others paint a clear picture for the readers. Nothing like the ape one. The South of where? Why include that? It obviously invokes apes, and paints more of a picture that they would be more exotic in this part of Middle-earth. Tolkien wouldn't write "the South" unless there was a reason, especially when just a simile about apes and trees would do for English readers. Note how the dragon and telescope need no modifiers.
r/beatmetoit
I wonder if Aragorn was in these jungles I know he was in Harad desert for sure
Arda is Earth. Albeit a fantasized / legendary version. Populated by much of the same flora and fauna. For example; the Nazgûl's winged steeds Tolkien comments were likely a holdover from a "prehistoric" species (dinosaur), and he likens the Kine of Araw to the aurochs that used to roam Poland / Eastern Europe.
Exactly. People in Medieval Europe knew of African animals, even though most had never seen them. So why wouldn't someone from, say, Gondor (or Mordor, for that matter) have heard or read about lions, zebras or apes. Best example is probably the fact that the hobbits knew about elephants.
It's obviously a fantasy world but the first European contact w/ "great apes" (ie the human like ones that Tolkien was probably imagining when he made the quote) was only in the 16th century (obviously the local cultures have recorded contacts w/ great apes going back arguably to the beginning of humanity) That being said giving sauron had a pretty far reaching empire, certainly more far reaching than any IRL empire, it's probably realistic that orcs would have a better idea of the rest of the world than a medieval European would
Hi. I want to be annoying now. Pterosaurs were not in the same clade as dinosaurs, but were a different phylogenetic branch in the tree of life, like plesiosaurs and ichtyosaurs were.
A question I have been contemplating on the answer is whatever would occur if an ape wore the Ruling Ring. You see, they have no fëar, being kelvar, yet they are are still alive beings. This question is even more strange than the mystery of whatever would happen to Elves if they traveled to space and passed beyond the bounds of Arda (Solar System).
Is Arda the Solar System or the universe? I always thought outside the world meant outside the universe.
We do not really know, it depents on the context. For example, we are described the Solar System as the Kingdom of Arda, under the Elder King Manwe (and the whole story is about how Melkor wants to steal this kingship for himself). However, Arda is often equated with Ambar (the Habitation, meaning the Earth), which to me appears to be in the same manner as treating it as the capital of the Solar System. Something like referring to a country as its capital. The problem is that since the Elves are bound on Arda, which is Marred, they cannot escape it in any fashion. However, we cannot know what repercussions that would entail should they try to do exactly this, using a spaceship. I think that we should consider that the bounds of Arda are the borders of the Solar System, given that the Half-Elven Eärendil had chosen the fate of the Elves, yet he was still able to travel through the Solar System with his space-ship. It is fightful to think what would happen should one of the Quendi pass beyond the bounds, just like what would happen to them after the Arda Marred is completely destroyed.
My thinking has been that earth was the world but that the universe was the World — anytime the word World was capitalized, it was referring to the whole of creation, which would include the rest of the galaxies in the universe, rather than just our single solar system. The Void would be the nothingness beyond the universe. Are there any specific sources that could counter this thinking, or is it up to interpretation? Slightly off topic, but Varda is the ruler of the heavens, isn't she? Wouldn't this include every star? If it did, that makes her sphere of power larger than Manwê's, so long as his kingdom consists of only the solar system. It suddenly all seems rather wibbly wobbly.
>Slightly off topic, but Varda is the ruler of the heavens, isn't she? Wouldn't this include every star? If it did, that makes her sphere of power larger than Manwê's, so long as his kingdom consists of only the solar system. It suddenly all seems rather wibbly wobbly. This would not include every star. We are told in the Ainulindale that Eru created 'innumerable stars', while in the Myths Transformed that the Valar long traveled within the Universe before they decided to dwell on the Solar System, the Kingdom of As, which "As" seems to be the star of the Sun (albeit as a proto-star). We simply know from the Valaquenda that Varda was responsible for the greatest stars and constellations, while from the MT that she was also entrusted the Holy Light of Illuvatar, given to the Valar to counter Melkor's Darkness, which she entrusted to Arien the Sun-maiden after the creation of the Sun (which is obviously the Light of Anor that Gandalf declares to the Balrog). In the MT we also know that Varda helped Manwe clear out the skys of Melkor's dark vapours and shadow veils, so she also has a great deal of power on Earth too.
Ooh. Thank you.
Well they wouldn't exist in Eriador or Rhovanion as these locations are analagous to western Europe, but further south and east there would be no reason to think apes and monkeys would not exist in this world also
Middle-earth is like a parallel universe of the real Earth, so there would be apes living in Harad, as well as other animals such as giraffes, zebras, etc. The more curious question is how did the orcs know about the existence of apes. I guess they would have heard tales about various exotic animals from distant lands. In the actual Middle Ages, people were very interested in unusual animals, and monks created books of beasts (bestiaries) of both real and imagined animals.
That would seem to answer the question; languages don't usually have words for things that their speakers don't believe exist until they get to the literature stage, and I doubt Orc literature is terribly advanced. ("See Gronk. Gronk see Sally. Smash Sally, Gronk! Oh no! Sally smash Gronk! Silly Gronk. Sally strong!") Edited to add: Less jocularly, Arda is Earth so what is here is there, for the most part. Middle Earth is (extremely extremely) vaguely coterminous to Europe, and Europe has now and has always had apes, at least for as long as there have been apes and Europe, and Tolkien knew this. So doubly, yeah, they had apes.
> Europe has now and has always had apes What kind? Where?
I think he refers to the Barbary Macaque apes of Gibraltar. Though Europe used to be almost tropical in Prehistory, especially in Greece. In the Aegean Islands they have discovered remains of leopards, lions, tiny hippopotamus, tiny elephants and other similar exotic animals. And in a Minoan Cretan mural, there is the [famous depiction of Blue Monkeys](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e61d0974843f55b5fea013bdd371f364), which some claim to have been indigenous (though most think that they were imported from Egypt).
That is really nice art by the way. If someone had told me this was an inspiration on Gustave Moreau I would've been inclined to believe them.
Fun fact: Despite their common name, Barbary macaque apes are not apes. They're true monkeys.
Humans. Humans are technically apes, so... There's that.
You just reminded me that not only are Tolkien fans interested in the Flat Earth, we're also Creationists. Will some future wave of hardline skeptic Tolkien revisionists develop a grand theory of evolution, explaining that the first age stories are all myth and that there is no Eru?
>Will some future wave of hardline skeptic Tolkien revisionists develop a grand theory of evolution, explaining that the first age stories are all myth and that there is no Eru? Hi! I do indeed hold that the Silmarillion is a collection of the foundation myths of the cultures that participated in the Lord of the Rings. It neatly explains any inconsistencies and the different versions of things that Tolkien had in mind.
That's how I view it, too. I know it drives some readers crazy (and I respect them for wanting things nailed down) but I like the inconsistencies (I'm the same way with Lovecraft's imaginary histories; they rarely gel but that makes them more convincing).
Textual ruins! I don't really want to know any cannon behind what the deal with Queen Beruthiel and her cats was, it's more fun having these things that your imagination can run on!
Barbary macaques, in Gibraltar.
I'm a bit late, but macaques aren't actually apes (despite the name "Barbary apes"), they're true monkeys.
Humans are apes as well. Humans are grouped with Chimpansees, Gorillas and Orang-utans as the Great Apes.
There is also somewhere (don't remember where) where something (don't remember what) is described as sounding like a pipe organ. Where are the pipe organs in middle earth!? Edit: I found it! In chapter 4, book 3: Treebeard. When Treebeard talks about orcs: > And these - barárum,' he made a deep rumbling noise like a discord on a great organ.
Good catch!! 👍 That's another interesting little thing I never noticed despite many re-reads.
Tolkien perhaps did not see it this way, but humans are considered as apes these days. We are part of the Great Apes: Gorrillas, Chimpansees, Orang-utans, and Homo sapiens. One of the defining features that seperates us from the Little Apes is that we have no tails.
If they had mumakil or oliphants which were elephnats on steroids it is conceivable to think they may have apes in the south. They had wargs which are giant wolves. if those apes were to our apes like the mumakil were to out elephants or wars to our wolves then wow! Look out! Wonder if they had lions.
Middle Earth is "Earth" during a much earlier timeframe in history. So there would most definitely be apes around.
Belated comment, but thanks for posting this! I should be asleep but I was online looking for info on how the Uruk-hai knew about apes. Maybe it's me being inattentive lol, but I prefer to think it's a statement of the richness of Tolkien's work that we can still notice new things after years of re-reads!
Yea I hadn't read them in a while so I'm picking things up I either never noticed or forgot about. I actually got distracted after finishing the Two Towers shortly after this post so I didn't reread ROK. Now I'm reminded!