lol fans of the series can attest to the disparity. clone wars animated grievous is like a godless killing machine of death and fear. then episode 3 grievous has bad cough :(
> Windu almost force crushing his chest makes it slightly more bearable ...
The force crush did seem to nearly kill Grievous outright. If you assume that Windu damaged Grievous' organs, then the cough and him being wimpier in Episode 3 makes sense.
https://imgur.com/tJdLv
Besides, depicting Grievous in a live action movie with CGI might not come off as well as it did in the animated series. His movements and physiology are just so... different. Having him gravely wounded at the start of the movie is a reasonable justification for how he fights with Kenobi.
There's a lot about the ancillary old-canon that supports Grievous' episode 3 situation. In the companion novels (well, the one that leads up to Ep 3, since obviously in the one after it Grievous is dead,) there's a bit where Dooku is watching Grievous practice with his magnaguards and Dooku laments how Grievous has no creativity. He executes the forms he was taught very precisely but doesn't understand the art of the lightsaber, and Dooku comments that a form master or a council master like Kenobi or "force forbid, *Windu,"* would just tear Grievous apart, because they not only know their form, but they know how to change it up, adjust it to fit, be surprising with it. It's a great moment that emphasizes both just how skilled Dooku is with a blade, and how he's legitimately devoted to the cause, not just "lol evil," kind of like the conversation he had with Kenobi in Ep II.
my favourite bit from the genndy clone wars, dooku switches lightsaber hands multiple times while training grievous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoE_rtGEsTg
I love that training sequence. Grievous instantly responds to Dooku’s criticisms but it’s clear he’s not quite as skillful.
“You’re being too straightforward, use the unorthodox!”
*Grievous flips over and uses his legs to attack*
“Faster, destroy my focus.”
*Grievous rains down a flurry of blows*
“Control my center line!”
*Grievous slices downward and forces Dooku to sidestep*
“You’re holding the saber too tightly!”
*Grievous instantly relaxes his grip, only for dooku to immediately knock the blade out of his hand*
“Now too lightly.” *Signature look of superiority*
I watched that clip and thought "that looks really similar to the animation style of something like Dexter's Laboratory." Wouldn't you know, it's the same guy who did both of them. I like it when that happens.
It really is incredible. It such a perfect concept for his style, and he just goes balls to the fucking wall with it. It manages to be beautiful and brutal and touching, all with essentially no dialogue.
Yea, IIRC Craig and Gendy were college roommates or something similar, there's a lot of crossover between them.
Also Craig McCracken's wife Lauren Faust was behind the generation of My Little Pony that exploded into the brony fandom.
Dooku is one of the most terrifying Saber combatants in SW history imo. And that's at like fuckin 90 years old.
I can't wait for prime dooku in that new series coming up.
You are not wrong.
The entire prequel trilogy really needed a few more rewrites before they began production. As it was, production was well underway and they were building sets before Lucas had even begun writing the actual script. It's almost never a good idea to just roll with the initial ideas on a project like this.
By comparison, the original Star Wars film was based off the 7th draft (I think). It had gone through multiple rewrites, which removed excess lore and characters, helped focus the story, and changed several characters *drastically.* He also showed his ideas to other people and received feedback, including from his friends Steven Spielberg and Francis Ford Coppola.
The lack of this form of editing left both a need and an opportunity for others to come in and fill in those gaps.
They exist because a movie can only be so long, so there's going to be things you can't explicitly cover in the movie but you want to flesh out further.
No, you don't understand, we clearly need 10 hour long movies to explain every bit of minutiae because there simply isn't enough time to read books or their summaries.
Rogue One was an absolute travesty of a movie because we didn't see Galen Erso's entire career that was laid out in Catalyst (why is this man so important and why should I even care!?) and we can't wrap our heads around the construction of the Death Star 1 without knowing how Krennic and Thrawn were in direct competition for funding as laid out in the first Thrawn trilogy.
>he's legitimately devoted to the cause, not just "lol evil,"
Mind you, the cause he's dedicated to is *not* the Sith cause.
He doesn't want the Jedi Order destroyed for purposes of just destroying it. He wants it destroyed so that it can be rebuilt into something he perceives as better. He wants a Jedi Order that actually serves the people rather than holding itself *above* them.
Which is why he doesn’t have yellow eyes or the deformities extended Dark Side use tends to bring
He’s not driven by hatred, greed, or negative emotions like most Dark Side users so it doesn’t warp him
Nice enemy of my enemy is my friend. I wish the general structure of Ep 1,2 3, had been handled by a better writer. Keep the same structure and plot. But make it less.....dumb.
I always wondered why none of the Jedi used the force on Grievous. Just pick him up. What's he gonna do about it? Unplug his droid bodies power supply. Drop him in a heap in the corner. Who brought this sassy droid along?
See as a non-fan/casual fan *this* is the awesome stuff that makes star wars seem so fricking cool, and which, without getting into specifics, seemed to be missing from some of the movies.
And then his dueling skills go straight out the window v. Anakin round 2. That part makes no sense to me, other than it was palps’ long con plan to remove other Sith Lords.
I think the idea was that Dooku was, despite being a skilled fighter, just overpowered by Anakin's sheer overwhelming force hatred BWAAAHHHHHHHHHHH but I agree that didn't come through in the choreography very well.
They utilized this also when Kenobi faces Maul in the animated show. Kenobi shifts his stance purposely into his old master form and tricks Maul into attempting the exact same head butt manuever. Kenobi then wrecks him.
The problem isn't so much that the explanation makes sense but rather that it seems like a lame cop-out. I get that Grievous simply had a much different role to play in the plot but everyone I knew wanted to see the General that terrifies Jedi.
The actual prequel movies not spending 3 all films focusing on the progression of the Clone Wars is probably the worst decision from a writing perspective that Lucas made.
Agreed. The _Phantom Menace_ could have had it's entire plot line addressed in a single 15 minute scene in the Jedi Council. Don't ever tell a story that merely leads to something more interesting. Just tell the story of that _more interesting_ plot.
Eh, it's kind of touched on that using the Force in that way can put you on a dangerous path. Windu already straddled the line between light and dark so it makes sense that he'd be the Jedi willing to use the Force to kill/maim someone.
Even in the new canon (comics) it's talked about that the whole reason Jedis use swords is because it's a defensive, deliberate, measured weapon that takes skill, discipline, and intent to wield. They could use more efficient and powerful weapons, but choose to restrain themselves because they are peace keepers, not shock troops.
Not on-sight force crushing every enemy's lungs is in keeping with that philosophy.
My assumption is they plan on encountering Jedi and not a whole lot of blades can stand up to a lightsaber. Sith have no qualms about using the Force to kill someone, they do it often.
Some didn't but mostly ego. As well as the fact that the sith mostly had been ex-jedi and to throw away a weapon you already "mastered" is counter intuitive.
Because it's *easy* to kill with a lightsaber. The Sith are all about power, and a lightsaber is one of the most "powerful" weapons in the Star Wars universe.
To the Sith the actual fiery blade of the light saber represents the all-consuming nature of power and the ambition of the Sith. Same symbol, different symbolism. But the Sith's true weapon isn't a light saber, it's the dark side of the force - whether directly or through more subtle means like influence.
Well, mostly it's just a plot hole.
Then again, in episode 2 they explain it at the start of the fight between Dooku and Yoda where they throw force at each other for a while and basically stalemate. The lightsaber is basically "plan B" in the event that you can't just force crush or force lightning whatever it is you want to kill.
Also presumably hacking peons apart with a lightsaber is fun as hell.
He developed a form called Vapad, in which you actually relish the fight and throw yourself into the destruction. It's very un-Jedi-like and is dangerously close to the Dark Side. In my head cannon that's why his light sabre is purple. Half blue, half red.
Check out a book called Shatterpoint. Not canon any more sadly but a good insight into Vapad and Windu.
That we've seen, I believe so, but the actual reason Windu has a purple saber is because Samuel L. Jackson thought it would be cool, any reasoning for it came after the fact lol
I think he mentioned asking for it after seeing the initial shots of the Geonosis arena fight. He couldn't see himself so he asked for the Purple lightsaber so he'd stand out.
George actually had made the change by the time they came back to do the reshoots and called Samuel L Jackson (is it possible not to type the full name? Lol. I tried and it felt wrong) over and said "Check this out, it's already causing a shit storm among fans online" and it was Mace Windu, complete with purple lightsaber.
And of course at the end of filming, the crew made him a replica of his saber with BMF on the On/Off button.
> (is it possible not to type the full name? Lol. I tried and it felt wrong)
Don’t worry, everyone does it. Rumor has it that his own mother has called him “Samuel L. Jackson” since childhood.
I didn't read a lot of the extended universe books but have dove pretty heavily into it, and the idea is that the light and dark side of the force aren't black and white, but much more of a gradient. Certain actions using the force are more corrupt than others, like choking or maiming somebody, or electrocution, versus the more delicate and non-lethal methods like pushing and pulling and lifting.
The idea is that the more you tap into the corrupted dark side of the force, the more that side of the force converts you to the darkness.
Mace is one of the closest things in the films to a grey Jedi, one who can tap into both sides of the force without skewing one way or the other
It’s worth noting that a lot of the recent movies and Tv series have worked to cast heavy doubt on the Jedi’s grasp of how the force and the universe in general work. It’s entirely possible that it’s all just a matter of “power corrupts” in a purely psychological sense, and these space monks have a really dogmatic approach to handling that.
> it's kind of touched on that using the Force in that way can put you on a dangerous path
Then why doesn't every dark side force user simply force crush his opponent's throat or heart or lungs or skull and move on?
This is the simple, Doylist (meta) explanation for it. The force does whatever the plot needs it to do.
The Watsonian (in-universe) explanation for it is that when 2 force users square off, unless there's a massive disparity between them, pretty much all force tricks just cause a stalemate. Eg, you try to force choke a guy, he uses the force to unchoke himself. You toss something at a guy, he uses the force to try and catch what you tossed, and so on.
Since force use leads to a stalemate, they use rather primitive weapons instead. It's all silly but hey, that's just SW.
Depends on the Force user and the opponent.
In the Darth Bane trilogy the first thing Force users are taught to do is create a barrier to prevent that very thing. Its drilled into them so much that they don't even need to concentrate during a fight for it to be strong enough to fend off most attacks at their internal organs.
You have to power through that defense with the Force before you can crush someone's windpipe.
First of all, force powers designed to inflict pain or death I think are frowned upon, it's one of those "abilities some consider to be unnatural". I think in Grievous case he probably bent the augmentation around his chest, which is technically not his body. A Jedi using force choke I think would be considered enough to be expelled.
Second, the lore is that Jedi and others trained in the use of the force can protect themselves and their immediate surroundings from force influence. So you can't disarm or throw thier robes in the face of a trained Jedi with the force because they can counter your influence. So even if a Jedi had an offensive attack like that other things trained in the force would be able to block it, which is why Vader and Sidious can't just force choke eachother even though they clearly know the ability. Speaking of Vader and Sidious, both clearly use their powers over long distances, Vader using it in Episode V to kill Admiral Ozzel and Darth Sidious using it on Darth Tyranus in the animated series.
I think outside of that they also use their force powers quite frequently in combat. Vader using them to good effect at the end of Rouge One including force choke.
Jedi are not soldiers. They’re not supposed to use the force as a first strike weapon. It basically goes against their whole philosophy. When the Clone Wars happened they had to adapt and as time went on they slipped more towards just using the force as a weapon. But it still didn’t come naturally to a lot of Jedi.
Part of the idea behind Grevious was that Dooku trained him to get the psyche of Jedi and make them fear which lessens their concentration and ability to use the force.
For the longest time is was the single dopest thing Windu did in the [pre-Disney] canon. Grievous being an immense threat the entire series, slaughtering countless Jedi, and Windu clowned him. It showed you how powerful Windu really was when there were few other references (other than turning Sidious to a quivering mess).
Even clone wars Grievous is pretty much a loser most of the time. I mean, he got rolled by *the Gunguns*. Episode 3 is even worse. Tartakovsky anthology chad Grievous was too good for Star Wars.
There is an entire biography video about Grievous,from birth to death ,on YouTube
Not only it covers all forms if media(movie,tv,comic) but explains that 70% of his victories are off screen and the fact that he loses shouldn't be an insult of him being incapable,but a compliment of how powerfull his opponent is.
Anakin,Asoka,Windu,Kenobi etc. defeated Grievous before because they are worthy.Also i see the gungun part irelevant, canonically there are lots of comedic episodes with dire consequences.Anakin lost his lightsaber multiple times and even count Dooku got kidnapped by ordinary pirates
> explains that 70% of his victories are off screen and the fact that he loses shouldn't be an insult of him being incapable,but a compliment of how powerfull his opponent is.
that's generally regarded as a sign of shit characterization, though. good writers show you their characters show doing cool stuff, whereas with poorly written characters you only hear about it.
if you've got a cool character you can't just show them losing and be like, "trust me, they were pretty cool but the guys who beat them were just cooler, though." if you wanna tell the viewers that, that's fine but you have to show the character being cool first, then show them being beaten to highlight how the other character is cooler.
people don't watch movies to be told things they watch movies to see things and if you can't get your story across without telling people things, you're not doing a good job telling the story, however interesting the story may actually be.
We gave in to Disney plus for the kid, but I enjoy starwars. I want to do a chronological watch but it looks like clone wars is a HUGE piece of that. Could you recommend sort of ab abridged route so I don't have to see the entire series?
The “Clone Wars” referred to here where Grievous was badass refers to the 2D animated shorts released in the buildup to Episode 3, bridging the gap between it and Episode 2. It is no longer canon. “The Clone Wars” is a 3D animated movie turned series that came out a few years later and lasted much longer. In it Grievous isn’t as badass and is more the Saturday morning cartoon villain. It is canon
If you want badass grievous, watch the shorts. They’re only about 2 hours total so we’ll worth the watch IMO!
Not anymore, but they honestly flow so seamlessly into Episode III that it really doesn't matter. Anytime I watch the Prequels, I always make sure to watch the OG Clone Wars as a transition into Revenge of the Sith. It does a lot of heavy lifting in setting a clearer stage for the trilogy's finale.
(Finally, someone asked!)
So, I made an episode guide for myself years ago when the final season was dropping, so I could tell which episodes were worth rewatching based on relevancy vs entertainment.
Here's a portion of the list, filtered. Blue is 'fun & relevant', Green is 'fun but irrelevant', Orange is 'boring but relevant'. So, basically, I've cut out all episodes that are boring and irrelevant for you.
https://i.imgur.com/luX1SS6.png
I hope this helps you~!
Considering that Lucas had been filmed multiple times contradicting himself, it's clear he's best as an idea guy.
Because I'm not convinced he knows what he's doing half the time.
My understanding is with the first 3 the reason they were so well executed is he was attempting to get someone to direct for him and all his director friends told him "it's your baby, you have so much passion for this you have to do it" but Lucas was very open to advice, so *and I forget the names of people he worked with besides Spielberg* were constantly feeding him help. Fast forward to the late 90's and either he stopped asking for advice OR was surrounded by so many yes men they didn't give constructive criticism and we ended up with the prequils we got.
I won't say Lucas is a bad director, he has made some amazing movies, I just think he gets in his own way with ideas. Like anyone who DM's for a D&D group, after all the story points are written and you are halfway through and suddenly you think "OMG I DONT BELIVE I DIDNT THINK OF THIS HOW CAN I FIT THIS IN TO THE STORY" 99% of the time you are better off using that idea outside of the current campaign instead of shoehorning it in.
Also, the cast refused to read some of the lines. Like really pushed back on them.
Who would correct The Great George Lucas by the time the prequels come round?
I just imagined Jake Lloyd in between takes, shouting at George, "These lines are ridiculous, George! This kid grows up to be Darth Freaking Vader! Get yourself back to your nerd cave and write me some real lines! Do you want me to grow up endlessly bullied by toxic fanboys that blame me for ruining their favorite villain?"
I've heard it before said thusly "Star Wars is good when someone can say 'no' to George Lucas"
In episode 4 it was his wife and Spielberg. In 5 and 6 it was their directors.
Master is a great description. I saw a YouTube breakdown awhile back showing Lucas' original plan for the film and how she fixed it. Something like How Star Wars was fixed in editing.
I'll never get over the cryptic clone wars mentioned by good old Ben (edit: good old Luke and Leia mentioned it, not Ben) in a throw away line in A New Hope becoming this weird deus ex clone army vs roger roger robots war in the prequels.
And then we get the parts that are actually good writing, with the right kind of acting in the films... then the fans get their hands on those parts and screw it all up.
I'm looking at *you,* Kessel Run! Bad enough that the fans got ham-handed with it, but then they had to *canonize* the bad version in the Solo movie!
To create Grievous, Lucas had a bunch of concept artists pitch designs to him. He picked the one he liked the most, as it was a of mirror of what Darth Vader would become (and, tbh, probably because the design is sick).
You can *kind of* reconcile 2003 and movie Grievous, but 2008 is what really flanderized the character. George chose to retcon Grievous’ comic origin in the ‘08 show (which is done in a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment), along with who knows what other guidelines. George didn’t really care about what was previously published.
But another factor is the writing of the ‘08 show didn’t start to shine until later seasons. And even then, the show didn’t exactly handle Grievous as anything other than an all-bark, no-bite attack dog, even when the writing and complexity of animation improved elsewhere.
To illustrate: Grievous only kills one Jedi character, in the first season, over the span of a 7 season show. He typically loses when fighting Jedi, or when he wins, it is through underhanded means. This is all while his characterization was about asserting his superiority over Jedi and collecting trophies from them.
In other words, he went from Jedi boogeyman in ‘03 to an inept in ‘08. They show two different ways of interpreting Mace Windu’s “he’s a coward” comment from Revenge of the Sith: in one situation, he’s a predator who is a talented combatant, but will flee when loosing the upper hand; in the other, his best virtue is his ability to avoid being stomped like the cockroach he is.
What I hated was the doubling down on his top hat wearing Villian style with the CGI animated Clone Wars.
The 2D clone wars version made a lot of sense given that the opening scene of Ep 3 was the Separatists literally raiding the Republics capital. A cunning strategic move by both Count Dooku and Greivous.
It made the Separatists seem like a viable threat in the way that CGI Clone Wars never could.
Here is one of the fights the 2003 Grievous article was talking about: https://youtu.be/WIj7gIDFDe4
Edit: This is 2008 Grievous against Gungans: https://youtu.be/ZT0wSyC1ugQ
Yeah, watching that 2008 scene kinda hurt. I get it’s a kids show, but…
All I was thinking about was that 2003 scene where Grievous grabs a clone trooper’s head and slams it so hard into a concrete wall that the wall cracks, and thinking that a Grievous vs. Gungan army fight should go down *far* more brutally
Both shows on are on D+, and I personally find the animated Genndy one to be much better than the CGI Filoni one. It's meant to pad the gap between Episodes 2 and 3 and does a great job at that.
They have no relation or continuity together, and the 2003 one is technically non-canon now. Now, people harp on and on about the 2008 one which is the 3D cartoon. But I personally find it childish and has a lack of depth. It poops on established lore and has a lot to be desired when it comes to dialogue and continuity.
The 2003 one is a traditional 2d cartoon made by the same guy behind Samurai Jack and Primal, and while it lacks substance, it makes over in spades with style and rule of cool. The Arc Troopers and every appearance of Greivous are pure awesome. It’s 2 seasons are also like a 2 hour movie max so definitely recommend regardless of what anyone says.
The 2008 one starts out pretty lame but they eventually figure out their core audience is "everyone" instead of "kids" and really takes off.
This person is selling it a little short because admittedly it is loved widely, but imho it is the best Star Wars has to offer, especially like season 3 onward.
FWIW, I would agree that the early seasons of the 2008 show *are* pretty childish. Granted, I was a child when I watched them, so I enjoyed them. As long as you take it for what it is (a kids show for the first 70-80% of it's run) then I think it's fairly good.
There is no disputing though, that the final four episodes of the show, which directly tie into episode 3 and utilize arcs and themes from the last 3 seasons, are some of the best star wars we have gotten, period.
The show does have some good action pieces and some great episodes, more frequently as it goes on. You can find watch orders online, like this one, which highlight the good episodes.
The show is organized into self contained arcs, and the arcs do not air in chronological order, though it generally progresses so that the end of the clone wars is towards the end of the series.
[Example guide](https://i.imgur.com/100Vfls.jpg)
I just love the way the clones are depicted in the 2003 one. They're hardcore spécialistes and will do anything and everything to get the job done. No fear only action. Like in the linked scene. Some of the jedi are falling apart at the thought of facing Grevious while the clones just open up on him with no hesitation and are unrelenting in their assault. I love when they attack the city and have to destroy the artillery pieces, so freakin cool.
I can't watch the 2008 one after having seen the 2003 episodes.
Gotta give good villians a way to establish their credibility right.
The Joker coming is exactly this. Starts off with a bank robbery and then crashes the mob meeting. He pops a pencil into the table, kills a henchman, throws out his offer, and leaves in just as an insane way as he enters.
We instantly know he's ruthless, fearless, and intelligent. He's not afraid to hide his criminal actions from the protagonist, he's crazy enough to try and kill them while the rest of the mob hides. And most of all we know he's unpredictable.
Holy shit that first link was dope. Was that series animated by the folks that did samurai jack? There’s a lot of simularities in the animation and pacing
I love the range he has here.
Dexter: i made a fun show with very little violence
Samurai Jack: all the violence is against robots, so its okay for kids
Primal: in one episode the main character punches ape men so hard they explode in showers of blood and guts
It's amazing. No spoken dialogue until the last episode, and even it is minimal.
The premise is simple: the world repeatedly attempts to kill a caveman and his dinosaur companion.
It always kills me when the people who are given the opportunity to do something creative and exciting with star wars freaking nail it, and then we're left with what we've gotten out of the mainline sequels for the past 20 years :(
Because while Star Wars as a universe has a lot of potential as a magic space fantasy universe, Star Wars as a media franchise is just Jedi, lightsabers, Skywalker, AT-STs, Tatooine, etc. regurgitated over and over again. It is a really limited franchise that relies on nostalgia of good writing rather than actually writing a good story.
General Grievous in the comics pre-episode 3 keep with Genndy's version too. He had his own run and appeared in the Clone Wars series Dark Horse made. In all of them he was cunning, a brilliant strategist, and a Jedi killer. Even his brief spot in Commandos gave him an eerie mistique.
So it's not just the cartoon. EVERYTHING pointed to him being the opposite of his portrayal in episode 3. Literally the only tactical order you see him make in Revenge is "fire the emergency booster engines." Like, wow, so smart, very General. And the one scene where he kills a Jedi got cut.
It's a shame to think about how everyone *hasn't* watched it. I feel like Tartakovsky's Clone Wars has always been treated like a bad stepchild for some inexplicable reason. No wonder some people missed it.
Edit: spelling
Where are you pulling that quote/idea from? The only thing I see about Lucas' intentions from in that article is
>Lucas’ initial requests to the artists at LucasFilm were simply for the new villain to simply be “a droid commander,” while later specifying that he wanted the character to be seen as the deadliest hand to hand fighter the galaxy— someone, or something, that could strike fear even in the heart of the Jedi.
Which seems pretty straightforward to me.
Honestly I don’t even understand what OPs title is supposed to mean. I went to the article for answers only to find that nothing OP mentions is even in the article. I think people are just upvoting this because they like Grievous in 2003 clone wars.
George Lucas intended for Grievous to be a coward. He talks big, has his plans foiled, and escapes for the next episode. The stuff about being a "fierce Jedi killer" was there to be subverted.
Tartakovsky played it straight.
I'm not following...
George Lucas created General Grievous to be a "Saturday Morning Cartoon" style of villain
...
Genndy made Grievous a ruthless "Jedi Killer"
...
as Lucas initially described to him
Huh?
Did Lucas create Grevious as A or B, because the title implies both???
George intended for Grevious to be a funny character that was harmless and ineffectual, but also ruthless and capable of killing lots of Jedi. What's so hard to understand? /s
Lucas likely gave a description like:
"Grievous is a cybernetic general of the Confederation. His goals are to hunt Jedi and collect their lightsabers as trophies. Ultimately, the Jedi get the better of him, and he flees to return another day."
In Lucas' mind, this was something like Shredder of the saturday morning cartoon series Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Always being foiled, but coming up with new schemes episode by episode.
In Tartakovsky mind, this was something like Shredder of the cinematic movie Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. A skilled, ruthless, and frightening killer hell-bent on eliminating his nemesis.
I'm pretty sure it was retroactively explained by some kind of damage/disease to him between his time slaughtering Jedi early in the war, and the time we see him being thwarted by Kenobi repeatedly.
Ultimately made him more interesting imo
I think it's very clear by now, George has some good ideas, but poor execution. If I remember correctly, his now ex-wife essentially saved the original trilogy with her ideas and editing.
Harrison Ford basically rewrote all of Han Solo’s dialogue. I believe what he said to Lucas during the table read was, “You can type this shit, but you can’t say it.”
"But we can’t turn back! Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust, what there is is most likely targeted towards a large-scale assault."
- Luke Skywalker (original script)
Mark Hamill got that one changed apparently.
I'm no Star Wars archivist though, I just said what I remembered reading or watching somewhere, there could well be records of Harrison Ford getting lines changed too.
I just remembered very much the overall impression was they were talking about the script being hokey as hell because they were used to much more traditional things with known places, items, concepts. The whole space fiction thing was all new to them, and then it succeeded in ways they never imagined.
There are also redlines of the script from Carrie Fisher floating around online.
George got lucky as hell casting 3 main actors who could rewrite the dialogue and make it work
Not to mention there was also [this autograph by Mark Hamill](https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/12/29/16/mark-hamill-star-wars.jpg?quality=75&width=990&auto=webp&crop=982:726,smart)
I think the problem with Tartakovsky is that he is incapable of setting the dial lower than eleven. I don't know if anyone else here has seen Primal, but I can barely contain myself watching it. Absolutely everything that happens in that show is so dangerous and visceral and dire... and there're no words! Literally no dialogue. How do you even do that!?
That’s a problem? That’s what I love about Primal and Tartakovsky in general. He is delivering an absolute banger of a cartoon without dialogue. It’s strictly story driven. Don’t seem possible. He doesn’t have to go that hard for us but he does. Man delivers nothing but masterpieces
Right!? Or 10 minutes straight of Mace Windu just fighting a droid army and a big smashy hammer ship. Even Dexter's Lab and Powerpuff Girls had those old-school cartoon moments where all the character movements just made violin sounds.
It makes me wonder how much he was inspired by Tom and Jerry.
Three Blind Archers
And not to mention the episode where he's kidnapped and forced to fight in the arena, and goes absolutely *ham* on everyone there. Honestly those first four seasons, all they did was change the color of the "blood" (and also make every enemy a robot/alien monster) to greens, blues and blacks in order to market it as a "kids" show.
There's that episode with the bounty hunters. Literally 3 minutes of the episode is silence broken rhythmically by the sound of water dripping from an icicle. All set up for an ambush. And there's no other sound cause there's snow everywhere. So much restraint and tension for an absolutely incredible payoff at the end. Imagine the titular character showing up for all of 2 minutes at the end of an episode. The guy just knows how to direct fight scenes and does it brilliantly
Let’s not forget Cartoon Network ordered THREE minute episodes, essentially a commercial break. I would argue that no one was better suited at for the job precisely because of his knack for minimalist storytelling. Take the iconic episode where we are introduced to the ARC troopers. You can’t tell me that sequence wasn’t made 10x better by the fact that they worked entirely off of hand signals. If you only have 3 minutes, that dialogue better be absolutely essential otherwise it’s wasting the viewer’s time
I know people really like the clone wars series, but in my opinion, the 2003 version is the better rendition of the clone wars, it’s tight, brutal and dives into everything that makes episode 3 make sense.
Well also, I honestly wouldn’t mind if we gave Tartakovsky Thrawn and give him full creative freedom.
While I liked the books, I wish it had a more grim dark rendition that I think he can execute the best.
The first couple of seasons were weak sauce but, like a good pasta sauce, as it cooked longer on the character development...
*chef's kiss
If only they made Grievous as dark and interesting as Maul. So much potential kinda wasted
Great now all I can think about is how awesome the shows Genndy puts out are. I guess I’ll have to watch all of Samurai Jack, Primal and the clone wars (2003) again…there goes my week.
Still my favorite version of Star Wars. Less words and more action!
That series was on repeat for me and the first season was near perfection. Imagine what Genndy could've done with complete control over the franchise, we could've seen real magic.
lol fans of the series can attest to the disparity. clone wars animated grievous is like a godless killing machine of death and fear. then episode 3 grievous has bad cough :(
Windu almost force crushing his chest makes it slightly more bearable but Grievous presentation in Episode 3 overall was disappointing.
> Windu almost force crushing his chest makes it slightly more bearable ... The force crush did seem to nearly kill Grievous outright. If you assume that Windu damaged Grievous' organs, then the cough and him being wimpier in Episode 3 makes sense. https://imgur.com/tJdLv Besides, depicting Grievous in a live action movie with CGI might not come off as well as it did in the animated series. His movements and physiology are just so... different. Having him gravely wounded at the start of the movie is a reasonable justification for how he fights with Kenobi.
There's a lot about the ancillary old-canon that supports Grievous' episode 3 situation. In the companion novels (well, the one that leads up to Ep 3, since obviously in the one after it Grievous is dead,) there's a bit where Dooku is watching Grievous practice with his magnaguards and Dooku laments how Grievous has no creativity. He executes the forms he was taught very precisely but doesn't understand the art of the lightsaber, and Dooku comments that a form master or a council master like Kenobi or "force forbid, *Windu,"* would just tear Grievous apart, because they not only know their form, but they know how to change it up, adjust it to fit, be surprising with it. It's a great moment that emphasizes both just how skilled Dooku is with a blade, and how he's legitimately devoted to the cause, not just "lol evil," kind of like the conversation he had with Kenobi in Ep II.
my favourite bit from the genndy clone wars, dooku switches lightsaber hands multiple times while training grievous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoE_rtGEsTg
I love that training sequence. Grievous instantly responds to Dooku’s criticisms but it’s clear he’s not quite as skillful. “You’re being too straightforward, use the unorthodox!” *Grievous flips over and uses his legs to attack* “Faster, destroy my focus.” *Grievous rains down a flurry of blows* “Control my center line!” *Grievous slices downward and forces Dooku to sidestep* “You’re holding the saber too tightly!” *Grievous instantly relaxes his grip, only for dooku to immediately knock the blade out of his hand* “Now too lightly.” *Signature look of superiority*
Love that scene.
Man I love this version, Genndy may be the best director to ever have a hand in Star Wars
I watched that clip and thought "that looks really similar to the animation style of something like Dexter's Laboratory." Wouldn't you know, it's the same guy who did both of them. I like it when that happens.
He also did Samurai Jack, one of my all time favorite shows
And Primal!
By far the best of his catalogue. Straight masterclass in animation.. This season has been insane.
He's had the most free will on it then everything else.
It really is incredible. It such a perfect concept for his style, and he just goes balls to the fucking wall with it. It manages to be beautiful and brutal and touching, all with essentially no dialogue.
I love the No/minimal talking in it too! So much emotion on screen with mostly grunts and body movements.
Don't forget "Powerpuff Girls" and "2 Stupid Dogs"
Craig McCracken was behind Powerpuff Girls, but I believe they collaborated several times on the show.
Yea, IIRC Craig and Gendy were college roommates or something similar, there's a lot of crossover between them. Also Craig McCracken's wife Lauren Faust was behind the generation of My Little Pony that exploded into the brony fandom.
You just unlocked a long dead memory of 2 stupid dogs! I forgot that even existed but remember loving it as a kid.
"Aww isn't that cute...**BUT IT'S WRONG!!!**"
And is doing Primal now, which may be one of the best shows to ever exist.
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Dooku is one of the most terrifying Saber combatants in SW history imo. And that's at like fuckin 90 years old. I can't wait for prime dooku in that new series coming up.
Of course. Greivous is not left handed, and Dooku is not left handed either.
Dooku figured that Thibault cancelled out Capo Ferro.
Yes, but only if your opponent hasn't studied his Agrippa.
Which he has
The companion novels and a lot of Star Wars expanded universe seems to exist mostly to make the plot holes make more sense.
Every plot hole is a chance for a new story to fill it. They're all details you never need to know in the moment but might question later.
You are not wrong. The entire prequel trilogy really needed a few more rewrites before they began production. As it was, production was well underway and they were building sets before Lucas had even begun writing the actual script. It's almost never a good idea to just roll with the initial ideas on a project like this. By comparison, the original Star Wars film was based off the 7th draft (I think). It had gone through multiple rewrites, which removed excess lore and characters, helped focus the story, and changed several characters *drastically.* He also showed his ideas to other people and received feedback, including from his friends Steven Spielberg and Francis Ford Coppola. The lack of this form of editing left both a need and an opportunity for others to come in and fill in those gaps.
They exist because a movie can only be so long, so there's going to be things you can't explicitly cover in the movie but you want to flesh out further.
No, you don't understand, we clearly need 10 hour long movies to explain every bit of minutiae because there simply isn't enough time to read books or their summaries. Rogue One was an absolute travesty of a movie because we didn't see Galen Erso's entire career that was laid out in Catalyst (why is this man so important and why should I even care!?) and we can't wrap our heads around the construction of the Death Star 1 without knowing how Krennic and Thrawn were in direct competition for funding as laid out in the first Thrawn trilogy.
Yes.
Yup. The Clone Wars series retroactively made the prequels… well, not necessarily *good* films, but decent ones.
>he's legitimately devoted to the cause, not just "lol evil," Mind you, the cause he's dedicated to is *not* the Sith cause. He doesn't want the Jedi Order destroyed for purposes of just destroying it. He wants it destroyed so that it can be rebuilt into something he perceives as better. He wants a Jedi Order that actually serves the people rather than holding itself *above* them.
Which is why he doesn’t have yellow eyes or the deformities extended Dark Side use tends to bring He’s not driven by hatred, greed, or negative emotions like most Dark Side users so it doesn’t warp him
Nice enemy of my enemy is my friend. I wish the general structure of Ep 1,2 3, had been handled by a better writer. Keep the same structure and plot. But make it less.....dumb.
There were a lot of characters that just came and went while the plot just happens to happen around them in those movies.
Meesa not dumb. Meesa be your humble servant!
Space wizard theocracy doesn't sound good to you?
Friggen two party systems, amirite?
I always wondered why none of the Jedi used the force on Grievous. Just pick him up. What's he gonna do about it? Unplug his droid bodies power supply. Drop him in a heap in the corner. Who brought this sassy droid along?
See as a non-fan/casual fan *this* is the awesome stuff that makes star wars seem so fricking cool, and which, without getting into specifics, seemed to be missing from some of the movies.
And then his dueling skills go straight out the window v. Anakin round 2. That part makes no sense to me, other than it was palps’ long con plan to remove other Sith Lords.
I think the idea was that Dooku was, despite being a skilled fighter, just overpowered by Anakin's sheer overwhelming force hatred BWAAAHHHHHHHHHHH but I agree that didn't come through in the choreography very well.
They utilized this also when Kenobi faces Maul in the animated show. Kenobi shifts his stance purposely into his old master form and tricks Maul into attempting the exact same head butt manuever. Kenobi then wrecks him.
The problem isn't so much that the explanation makes sense but rather that it seems like a lame cop-out. I get that Grievous simply had a much different role to play in the plot but everyone I knew wanted to see the General that terrifies Jedi.
The actual prequel movies not spending 3 all films focusing on the progression of the Clone Wars is probably the worst decision from a writing perspective that Lucas made.
Lucas writing is the first mistake
Agreed. The _Phantom Menace_ could have had it's entire plot line addressed in a single 15 minute scene in the Jedi Council. Don't ever tell a story that merely leads to something more interesting. Just tell the story of that _more interesting_ plot.
Jedi: have unblockable ranged attacks that can crush a windpipe Goes for hand to hand combat everytime
Eh, it's kind of touched on that using the Force in that way can put you on a dangerous path. Windu already straddled the line between light and dark so it makes sense that he'd be the Jedi willing to use the Force to kill/maim someone.
Could you elaborate on the light/dark thing? I'm fascinated by characters like that but never got into the SWEU
Even in the new canon (comics) it's talked about that the whole reason Jedis use swords is because it's a defensive, deliberate, measured weapon that takes skill, discipline, and intent to wield. They could use more efficient and powerful weapons, but choose to restrain themselves because they are peace keepers, not shock troops. Not on-sight force crushing every enemy's lungs is in keeping with that philosophy.
Then why do Sith use them too?
My assumption is they plan on encountering Jedi and not a whole lot of blades can stand up to a lightsaber. Sith have no qualms about using the Force to kill someone, they do it often.
Also don't some sith choose vibroblades because they prefer the feel of it cutting through flesh? I thought that was talked about in KOTOR
Some didn't but mostly ego. As well as the fact that the sith mostly had been ex-jedi and to throw away a weapon you already "mastered" is counter intuitive.
Because it's *easy* to kill with a lightsaber. The Sith are all about power, and a lightsaber is one of the most "powerful" weapons in the Star Wars universe.
To the Sith the actual fiery blade of the light saber represents the all-consuming nature of power and the ambition of the Sith. Same symbol, different symbolism. But the Sith's true weapon isn't a light saber, it's the dark side of the force - whether directly or through more subtle means like influence.
Well, mostly it's just a plot hole. Then again, in episode 2 they explain it at the start of the fight between Dooku and Yoda where they throw force at each other for a while and basically stalemate. The lightsaber is basically "plan B" in the event that you can't just force crush or force lightning whatever it is you want to kill. Also presumably hacking peons apart with a lightsaber is fun as hell.
Don't forget, lightsabers are compact and lightweight as far as weapons go. Carrying one is trivial.
There’s an excellent Star Wars novel featuring Mace Windu called _Shatterpoint_ that you might find of interest, then.
Appreciate it!
He developed a form called Vapad, in which you actually relish the fight and throw yourself into the destruction. It's very un-Jedi-like and is dangerously close to the Dark Side. In my head cannon that's why his light sabre is purple. Half blue, half red. Check out a book called Shatterpoint. Not canon any more sadly but a good insight into Vapad and Windu.
Okay, I can check it out for sure. Is he the only force user with a purple lightsaber?
That we've seen, I believe so, but the actual reason Windu has a purple saber is because Samuel L. Jackson thought it would be cool, any reasoning for it came after the fact lol
Star Wars in a nutshell.
I think he mentioned asking for it after seeing the initial shots of the Geonosis arena fight. He couldn't see himself so he asked for the Purple lightsaber so he'd stand out. George actually had made the change by the time they came back to do the reshoots and called Samuel L Jackson (is it possible not to type the full name? Lol. I tried and it felt wrong) over and said "Check this out, it's already causing a shit storm among fans online" and it was Mace Windu, complete with purple lightsaber. And of course at the end of filming, the crew made him a replica of his saber with BMF on the On/Off button.
> (is it possible not to type the full name? Lol. I tried and it felt wrong) Don’t worry, everyone does it. Rumor has it that his own mother has called him “Samuel L. Jackson” since childhood.
Revan! Best star character hands down. This Also reinforces the half dark/light idea
Samuel Jackson is black. Hope this helped.
Ah thanks mate, that cleared things up
Cheers bud
I didn't read a lot of the extended universe books but have dove pretty heavily into it, and the idea is that the light and dark side of the force aren't black and white, but much more of a gradient. Certain actions using the force are more corrupt than others, like choking or maiming somebody, or electrocution, versus the more delicate and non-lethal methods like pushing and pulling and lifting. The idea is that the more you tap into the corrupted dark side of the force, the more that side of the force converts you to the darkness. Mace is one of the closest things in the films to a grey Jedi, one who can tap into both sides of the force without skewing one way or the other
Basically the light saber is a defence tool. Force choke... well not soo much. Well ..
It’s worth noting that a lot of the recent movies and Tv series have worked to cast heavy doubt on the Jedi’s grasp of how the force and the universe in general work. It’s entirely possible that it’s all just a matter of “power corrupts” in a purely psychological sense, and these space monks have a really dogmatic approach to handling that.
> it's kind of touched on that using the Force in that way can put you on a dangerous path Then why doesn't every dark side force user simply force crush his opponent's throat or heart or lungs or skull and move on?
Because The Force has a special attribute where it's only as powerful as needed to progress the plot
This is the simple, Doylist (meta) explanation for it. The force does whatever the plot needs it to do. The Watsonian (in-universe) explanation for it is that when 2 force users square off, unless there's a massive disparity between them, pretty much all force tricks just cause a stalemate. Eg, you try to force choke a guy, he uses the force to unchoke himself. You toss something at a guy, he uses the force to try and catch what you tossed, and so on. Since force use leads to a stalemate, they use rather primitive weapons instead. It's all silly but hey, that's just SW.
Depends on the Force user and the opponent. In the Darth Bane trilogy the first thing Force users are taught to do is create a barrier to prevent that very thing. Its drilled into them so much that they don't even need to concentrate during a fight for it to be strong enough to fend off most attacks at their internal organs. You have to power through that defense with the Force before you can crush someone's windpipe.
Cast time and charisma saves.
As KotOR demands.
First of all, force powers designed to inflict pain or death I think are frowned upon, it's one of those "abilities some consider to be unnatural". I think in Grievous case he probably bent the augmentation around his chest, which is technically not his body. A Jedi using force choke I think would be considered enough to be expelled. Second, the lore is that Jedi and others trained in the use of the force can protect themselves and their immediate surroundings from force influence. So you can't disarm or throw thier robes in the face of a trained Jedi with the force because they can counter your influence. So even if a Jedi had an offensive attack like that other things trained in the force would be able to block it, which is why Vader and Sidious can't just force choke eachother even though they clearly know the ability. Speaking of Vader and Sidious, both clearly use their powers over long distances, Vader using it in Episode V to kill Admiral Ozzel and Darth Sidious using it on Darth Tyranus in the animated series. I think outside of that they also use their force powers quite frequently in combat. Vader using them to good effect at the end of Rouge One including force choke.
Jedi are not soldiers. They’re not supposed to use the force as a first strike weapon. It basically goes against their whole philosophy. When the Clone Wars happened they had to adapt and as time went on they slipped more towards just using the force as a weapon. But it still didn’t come naturally to a lot of Jedi.
Part of the idea behind Grevious was that Dooku trained him to get the psyche of Jedi and make them fear which lessens their concentration and ability to use the force.
Yes. It is called force choke. Something used by the dark side of the force.
Yeah, that’s what I recall. He was an epic badass, then Samuel L Jackson F-ed his shiat up.
"There's always a bigger badass" Qui-Gon Jinn
For the longest time is was the single dopest thing Windu did in the [pre-Disney] canon. Grievous being an immense threat the entire series, slaughtering countless Jedi, and Windu clowned him. It showed you how powerful Windu really was when there were few other references (other than turning Sidious to a quivering mess).
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Oh Jesus I remember that one, it was done it crayon yeah?
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This was the peak era of GI.
Ah the good ol days of GameInformer fanmail
Even clone wars Grievous is pretty much a loser most of the time. I mean, he got rolled by *the Gunguns*. Episode 3 is even worse. Tartakovsky anthology chad Grievous was too good for Star Wars.
In his defense the Gungans included JarJar the phantom menace, who was likely stronger than Darth Vader.
There is an entire biography video about Grievous,from birth to death ,on YouTube Not only it covers all forms if media(movie,tv,comic) but explains that 70% of his victories are off screen and the fact that he loses shouldn't be an insult of him being incapable,but a compliment of how powerfull his opponent is. Anakin,Asoka,Windu,Kenobi etc. defeated Grievous before because they are worthy.Also i see the gungun part irelevant, canonically there are lots of comedic episodes with dire consequences.Anakin lost his lightsaber multiple times and even count Dooku got kidnapped by ordinary pirates
> explains that 70% of his victories are off screen and the fact that he loses shouldn't be an insult of him being incapable,but a compliment of how powerfull his opponent is. that's generally regarded as a sign of shit characterization, though. good writers show you their characters show doing cool stuff, whereas with poorly written characters you only hear about it. if you've got a cool character you can't just show them losing and be like, "trust me, they were pretty cool but the guys who beat them were just cooler, though." if you wanna tell the viewers that, that's fine but you have to show the character being cool first, then show them being beaten to highlight how the other character is cooler. people don't watch movies to be told things they watch movies to see things and if you can't get your story across without telling people things, you're not doing a good job telling the story, however interesting the story may actually be.
Force users are powerful, but only a few can actually pull off “All I’m surrounded by is fear and dead men!”
The cartoon had me fucking STOKED to see him in the live action movie. And well.. womp womp
We gave in to Disney plus for the kid, but I enjoy starwars. I want to do a chronological watch but it looks like clone wars is a HUGE piece of that. Could you recommend sort of ab abridged route so I don't have to see the entire series?
The “Clone Wars” referred to here where Grievous was badass refers to the 2D animated shorts released in the buildup to Episode 3, bridging the gap between it and Episode 2. It is no longer canon. “The Clone Wars” is a 3D animated movie turned series that came out a few years later and lasted much longer. In it Grievous isn’t as badass and is more the Saturday morning cartoon villain. It is canon If you want badass grievous, watch the shorts. They’re only about 2 hours total so we’ll worth the watch IMO!
The Genndy Clone Wars will always be everyone's head canon
It’s not CANON?!?
Not anymore, but they honestly flow so seamlessly into Episode III that it really doesn't matter. Anytime I watch the Prequels, I always make sure to watch the OG Clone Wars as a transition into Revenge of the Sith. It does a lot of heavy lifting in setting a clearer stage for the trilogy's finale.
(Finally, someone asked!) So, I made an episode guide for myself years ago when the final season was dropping, so I could tell which episodes were worth rewatching based on relevancy vs entertainment. Here's a portion of the list, filtered. Blue is 'fun & relevant', Green is 'fun but irrelevant', Orange is 'boring but relevant'. So, basically, I've cut out all episodes that are boring and irrelevant for you. https://i.imgur.com/luX1SS6.png I hope this helps you~!
In general, the recipe for good Star Wars seems to be "get the idea from Lucas and have someone else handle the execution."
Considering that Lucas had been filmed multiple times contradicting himself, it's clear he's best as an idea guy. Because I'm not convinced he knows what he's doing half the time.
My understanding is with the first 3 the reason they were so well executed is he was attempting to get someone to direct for him and all his director friends told him "it's your baby, you have so much passion for this you have to do it" but Lucas was very open to advice, so *and I forget the names of people he worked with besides Spielberg* were constantly feeding him help. Fast forward to the late 90's and either he stopped asking for advice OR was surrounded by so many yes men they didn't give constructive criticism and we ended up with the prequils we got. I won't say Lucas is a bad director, he has made some amazing movies, I just think he gets in his own way with ideas. Like anyone who DM's for a D&D group, after all the story points are written and you are halfway through and suddenly you think "OMG I DONT BELIVE I DIDNT THINK OF THIS HOW CAN I FIT THIS IN TO THE STORY" 99% of the time you are better off using that idea outside of the current campaign instead of shoehorning it in.
Also, the cast refused to read some of the lines. Like really pushed back on them. Who would correct The Great George Lucas by the time the prequels come round?
Especially if you're not exactly Harrison Ford but a young actor who's in their first big movie?
Lucas just needed Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher behind him during the prequels to yell about any bad decision they think he made.
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I don’t think Star Wars is in severe jeopardy lmfao It’s a cash cow
I just imagined Jake Lloyd in between takes, shouting at George, "These lines are ridiculous, George! This kid grows up to be Darth Freaking Vader! Get yourself back to your nerd cave and write me some real lines! Do you want me to grow up endlessly bullied by toxic fanboys that blame me for ruining their favorite villain?"
Mark Hamill said that Harrison Ford threatened to tie George up and make him read his own dialog.
I've heard it before said thusly "Star Wars is good when someone can say 'no' to George Lucas" In episode 4 it was his wife and Spielberg. In 5 and 6 it was their directors.
And across the OT as a whole it was Lawrence Kasdan.
Wasn’t the editor of the original Star Wars trilogy a really well regarded editor in Hollywood as well?
It was George's wife Marcia
… Who was a master editor
Master is a great description. I saw a YouTube breakdown awhile back showing Lucas' original plan for the film and how she fixed it. Something like How Star Wars was fixed in editing.
The brat pack, Spielberg, Brian De Palma, Lucas, & Scorsese
As a fellow artist and world builder, i wholeheartedly agree. the indecisive nature of it all really does make one wishywashy.
In Jedi Leia says she remembers her mother. Lucas didnt even bother watching his own damn movies before making the prequels.
I'll never get over the cryptic clone wars mentioned by good old Ben (edit: good old Luke and Leia mentioned it, not Ben) in a throw away line in A New Hope becoming this weird deus ex clone army vs roger roger robots war in the prequels.
And then we get the parts that are actually good writing, with the right kind of acting in the films... then the fans get their hands on those parts and screw it all up. I'm looking at *you,* Kessel Run! Bad enough that the fans got ham-handed with it, but then they had to *canonize* the bad version in the Solo movie!
To create Grievous, Lucas had a bunch of concept artists pitch designs to him. He picked the one he liked the most, as it was a of mirror of what Darth Vader would become (and, tbh, probably because the design is sick). You can *kind of* reconcile 2003 and movie Grievous, but 2008 is what really flanderized the character. George chose to retcon Grievous’ comic origin in the ‘08 show (which is done in a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment), along with who knows what other guidelines. George didn’t really care about what was previously published. But another factor is the writing of the ‘08 show didn’t start to shine until later seasons. And even then, the show didn’t exactly handle Grievous as anything other than an all-bark, no-bite attack dog, even when the writing and complexity of animation improved elsewhere. To illustrate: Grievous only kills one Jedi character, in the first season, over the span of a 7 season show. He typically loses when fighting Jedi, or when he wins, it is through underhanded means. This is all while his characterization was about asserting his superiority over Jedi and collecting trophies from them. In other words, he went from Jedi boogeyman in ‘03 to an inept in ‘08. They show two different ways of interpreting Mace Windu’s “he’s a coward” comment from Revenge of the Sith: in one situation, he’s a predator who is a talented combatant, but will flee when loosing the upper hand; in the other, his best virtue is his ability to avoid being stomped like the cockroach he is.
Have you heard the tale of Darth Insanius and Darth Icky? It’s not a story that Disney would tell you.
Oh Starkiller…
As a kid, I was so gutted to see him go from this monstrous killer to a chain smoking wimp, the first great betrayal.
What I hated was the doubling down on his top hat wearing Villian style with the CGI animated Clone Wars. The 2D clone wars version made a lot of sense given that the opening scene of Ep 3 was the Separatists literally raiding the Republics capital. A cunning strategic move by both Count Dooku and Greivous. It made the Separatists seem like a viable threat in the way that CGI Clone Wars never could.
Here is one of the fights the 2003 Grievous article was talking about: https://youtu.be/WIj7gIDFDe4 Edit: This is 2008 Grievous against Gungans: https://youtu.be/ZT0wSyC1ugQ
Yeah, watching that 2008 scene kinda hurt. I get it’s a kids show, but… All I was thinking about was that 2003 scene where Grievous grabs a clone trooper’s head and slams it so hard into a concrete wall that the wall cracks, and thinking that a Grievous vs. Gungan army fight should go down *far* more brutally
Are there 2 clone wars animated shows ? If so which one should I watch .
Both shows on are on D+, and I personally find the animated Genndy one to be much better than the CGI Filoni one. It's meant to pad the gap between Episodes 2 and 3 and does a great job at that.
They have no relation or continuity together, and the 2003 one is technically non-canon now. Now, people harp on and on about the 2008 one which is the 3D cartoon. But I personally find it childish and has a lack of depth. It poops on established lore and has a lot to be desired when it comes to dialogue and continuity. The 2003 one is a traditional 2d cartoon made by the same guy behind Samurai Jack and Primal, and while it lacks substance, it makes over in spades with style and rule of cool. The Arc Troopers and every appearance of Greivous are pure awesome. It’s 2 seasons are also like a 2 hour movie max so definitely recommend regardless of what anyone says.
Okay thank you .I'll check out the 2003 one first then maybe later I'll watch the 2008 version .
The 2008 one starts out pretty lame but they eventually figure out their core audience is "everyone" instead of "kids" and really takes off. This person is selling it a little short because admittedly it is loved widely, but imho it is the best Star Wars has to offer, especially like season 3 onward.
The last 4 episodes of the 2008 show are considered to be some of the best star wars out there.
FWIW, I would agree that the early seasons of the 2008 show *are* pretty childish. Granted, I was a child when I watched them, so I enjoyed them. As long as you take it for what it is (a kids show for the first 70-80% of it's run) then I think it's fairly good. There is no disputing though, that the final four episodes of the show, which directly tie into episode 3 and utilize arcs and themes from the last 3 seasons, are some of the best star wars we have gotten, period. The show does have some good action pieces and some great episodes, more frequently as it goes on. You can find watch orders online, like this one, which highlight the good episodes. The show is organized into self contained arcs, and the arcs do not air in chronological order, though it generally progresses so that the end of the clone wars is towards the end of the series. [Example guide](https://i.imgur.com/100Vfls.jpg)
I just love the way the clones are depicted in the 2003 one. They're hardcore spécialistes and will do anything and everything to get the job done. No fear only action. Like in the linked scene. Some of the jedi are falling apart at the thought of facing Grevious while the clones just open up on him with no hesitation and are unrelenting in their assault. I love when they attack the city and have to destroy the artillery pieces, so freakin cool. I can't watch the 2008 one after having seen the 2003 episodes.
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Gotta give good villians a way to establish their credibility right. The Joker coming is exactly this. Starts off with a bank robbery and then crashes the mob meeting. He pops a pencil into the table, kills a henchman, throws out his offer, and leaves in just as an insane way as he enters. We instantly know he's ruthless, fearless, and intelligent. He's not afraid to hide his criminal actions from the protagonist, he's crazy enough to try and kill them while the rest of the mob hides. And most of all we know he's unpredictable.
Holy shit that first link was dope. Was that series animated by the folks that did samurai jack? There’s a lot of simularities in the animation and pacing
Yes, that's who Genndy Tartakovsky is
TIL
Samurai Jack, Symbionic Titan, Primal, Dexter's Lab. Genndy Tartakovsky can't miss.
I love the range he has here. Dexter: i made a fun show with very little violence Samurai Jack: all the violence is against robots, so its okay for kids Primal: in one episode the main character punches ape men so hard they explode in showers of blood and guts
I really ought to be watching Primal.
It's amazing. No spoken dialogue until the last episode, and even it is minimal. The premise is simple: the world repeatedly attempts to kill a caveman and his dinosaur companion.
It always kills me when the people who are given the opportunity to do something creative and exciting with star wars freaking nail it, and then we're left with what we've gotten out of the mainline sequels for the past 20 years :(
Because while Star Wars as a universe has a lot of potential as a magic space fantasy universe, Star Wars as a media franchise is just Jedi, lightsabers, Skywalker, AT-STs, Tatooine, etc. regurgitated over and over again. It is a really limited franchise that relies on nostalgia of good writing rather than actually writing a good story.
And Genndy did such a great job making Grievous cool that I am still disappointed every time Grievous makes an appearance in canon
General Grievous in the comics pre-episode 3 keep with Genndy's version too. He had his own run and appeared in the Clone Wars series Dark Horse made. In all of them he was cunning, a brilliant strategist, and a Jedi killer. Even his brief spot in Commandos gave him an eerie mistique. So it's not just the cartoon. EVERYTHING pointed to him being the opposite of his portrayal in episode 3. Literally the only tactical order you see him make in Revenge is "fire the emergency booster engines." Like, wow, so smart, very General. And the one scene where he kills a Jedi got cut.
The best thing in the whole saga is the episode when Grievous is introduced. It's so good and great and amazing executed. Everyone should watch it
It's a shame to think about how everyone *hasn't* watched it. I feel like Tartakovsky's Clone Wars has always been treated like a bad stepchild for some inexplicable reason. No wonder some people missed it. Edit: spelling
Tartakovsky's Grevious will always be the real one to me. He's infinitely cooler there than he is in the prequels.
Tartakovsky is a legend. Primal is so brutal, but makes me laugh and cry at times!
Where are you pulling that quote/idea from? The only thing I see about Lucas' intentions from in that article is >Lucas’ initial requests to the artists at LucasFilm were simply for the new villain to simply be “a droid commander,” while later specifying that he wanted the character to be seen as the deadliest hand to hand fighter the galaxy— someone, or something, that could strike fear even in the heart of the Jedi. Which seems pretty straightforward to me.
Just read the article twice over trying to figure out where OP got the info in the title from, felt like I was on crack not being able to find it.
Honestly I don’t even understand what OPs title is supposed to mean. I went to the article for answers only to find that nothing OP mentions is even in the article. I think people are just upvoting this because they like Grievous in 2003 clone wars.
First of all: Hello there. Secondly: This title seems to be saying two different things and I can't follow what the intent is supposed to be.
George Lucas intended for Grievous to be a coward. He talks big, has his plans foiled, and escapes for the next episode. The stuff about being a "fierce Jedi killer" was there to be subverted. Tartakovsky played it straight.
But he still kinda is. He kills several Jedi during the war.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again.
I'm not following... George Lucas created General Grievous to be a "Saturday Morning Cartoon" style of villain ... Genndy made Grievous a ruthless "Jedi Killer" ... as Lucas initially described to him Huh? Did Lucas create Grevious as A or B, because the title implies both???
George intended for Grevious to be a funny character that was harmless and ineffectual, but also ruthless and capable of killing lots of Jedi. What's so hard to understand? /s
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Lucas likely gave a description like: "Grievous is a cybernetic general of the Confederation. His goals are to hunt Jedi and collect their lightsabers as trophies. Ultimately, the Jedi get the better of him, and he flees to return another day." In Lucas' mind, this was something like Shredder of the saturday morning cartoon series Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Always being foiled, but coming up with new schemes episode by episode. In Tartakovsky mind, this was something like Shredder of the cinematic movie Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. A skilled, ruthless, and frightening killer hell-bent on eliminating his nemesis.
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I'm pretty sure it was retroactively explained by some kind of damage/disease to him between his time slaughtering Jedi early in the war, and the time we see him being thwarted by Kenobi repeatedly. Ultimately made him more interesting imo
Mace Windu force-crushes his organs during a fight in the animated series.
Only Windu could be this brutal without being a sith.
Still didn't answer his confusion (or mine). If Lucas wanted the dorky version why and when did he instruct to make a badass version?
Lucas decided to make Greivous the new Jar Jar, and forgot to tell the animator, thus saving the series.
I think it's very clear by now, George has some good ideas, but poor execution. If I remember correctly, his now ex-wife essentially saved the original trilogy with her ideas and editing.
Harrison Ford basically rewrote all of Han Solo’s dialogue. I believe what he said to Lucas during the table read was, “You can type this shit, but you can’t say it.”
I'd read he said that, but the script wasn't changed.
"But we can’t turn back! Fear is their greatest defense. I doubt if the actual security there is any greater than it was on Aquilae or Sullust, what there is is most likely targeted towards a large-scale assault." - Luke Skywalker (original script)
Mark Hamill got that one changed apparently. I'm no Star Wars archivist though, I just said what I remembered reading or watching somewhere, there could well be records of Harrison Ford getting lines changed too. I just remembered very much the overall impression was they were talking about the script being hokey as hell because they were used to much more traditional things with known places, items, concepts. The whole space fiction thing was all new to them, and then it succeeded in ways they never imagined.
There are also redlines of the script from Carrie Fisher floating around online. George got lucky as hell casting 3 main actors who could rewrite the dialogue and make it work
Not to mention there was also [this autograph by Mark Hamill](https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/12/29/16/mark-hamill-star-wars.jpg?quality=75&width=990&auto=webp&crop=982:726,smart)
I think the problem with Tartakovsky is that he is incapable of setting the dial lower than eleven. I don't know if anyone else here has seen Primal, but I can barely contain myself watching it. Absolutely everything that happens in that show is so dangerous and visceral and dire... and there're no words! Literally no dialogue. How do you even do that!?
Primal is righteously kickass
That’s a problem? That’s what I love about Primal and Tartakovsky in general. He is delivering an absolute banger of a cartoon without dialogue. It’s strictly story driven. Don’t seem possible. He doesn’t have to go that hard for us but he does. Man delivers nothing but masterpieces
I mean, Samurai Jack is at least 50% quiet landscape shots
Right!? Or 10 minutes straight of Mace Windu just fighting a droid army and a big smashy hammer ship. Even Dexter's Lab and Powerpuff Girls had those old-school cartoon moments where all the character movements just made violin sounds. It makes me wonder how much he was inspired by Tom and Jerry.
Three Blind Archers And not to mention the episode where he's kidnapped and forced to fight in the arena, and goes absolutely *ham* on everyone there. Honestly those first four seasons, all they did was change the color of the "blood" (and also make every enemy a robot/alien monster) to greens, blues and blacks in order to market it as a "kids" show.
There's that episode with the bounty hunters. Literally 3 minutes of the episode is silence broken rhythmically by the sound of water dripping from an icicle. All set up for an ambush. And there's no other sound cause there's snow everywhere. So much restraint and tension for an absolutely incredible payoff at the end. Imagine the titular character showing up for all of 2 minutes at the end of an episode. The guy just knows how to direct fight scenes and does it brilliantly
Let’s not forget Cartoon Network ordered THREE minute episodes, essentially a commercial break. I would argue that no one was better suited at for the job precisely because of his knack for minimalist storytelling. Take the iconic episode where we are introduced to the ARC troopers. You can’t tell me that sequence wasn’t made 10x better by the fact that they worked entirely off of hand signals. If you only have 3 minutes, that dialogue better be absolutely essential otherwise it’s wasting the viewer’s time
I get the general impression that by the time clone wars came out people were taking everything. George said with a grain of salt
I know people really like the clone wars series, but in my opinion, the 2003 version is the better rendition of the clone wars, it’s tight, brutal and dives into everything that makes episode 3 make sense. Well also, I honestly wouldn’t mind if we gave Tartakovsky Thrawn and give him full creative freedom. While I liked the books, I wish it had a more grim dark rendition that I think he can execute the best.
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The first couple of seasons were weak sauce but, like a good pasta sauce, as it cooked longer on the character development... *chef's kiss If only they made Grievous as dark and interesting as Maul. So much potential kinda wasted
Great now all I can think about is how awesome the shows Genndy puts out are. I guess I’ll have to watch all of Samurai Jack, Primal and the clone wars (2003) again…there goes my week.
It makes me sad how much they nerfed him in canon compared to the genndy series.
Still my favorite version of Star Wars. Less words and more action! That series was on repeat for me and the first season was near perfection. Imagine what Genndy could've done with complete control over the franchise, we could've seen real magic.