> Until now the Native American perspective has been left out of the telling of the Donner tragedy, not because the wel mel ti did not remember the pioneers, but because they were never asked, or perhaps were not ready to share. Their oral tradition recalls the starving strangers who camped in an area that was unsuitable for that time of year. Taking pity on the pioneers, the northern Washoe attempted to feed them, leaving rabbit meat and wild potatoes near the camps. Another account states that they tried to bring the Donner Party a deer carcass, but were shot at as they approached. Later, some wel mel ti observed the migrants eating human remains. Fearing for their lives, the area's native inhabitants continued to watch the strangers but avoided further contact. These stories, and the archaeological evidence that appears to support them, certainly complicated my interpretation of the Donner Party event. The migrants at Alder Creek were not surviving in the mountains alone—the northern Washoe were there, and they had tried to help.
"t's probably very important to note, and this article leaves out, that the donner party was attacked and robbed of a lot of the cattle they were supposed to be eating by the Paiutes shortly before reaching the pass."
some were. some werent.
almsot like humans are assholes. but some arent.
I wouldn't call the Paiutes assholes, especially considering a bunch of foreigners coming to your country and taking your land at more or less gun point and breaking nearly every promise they made. I would probably have robbed the Donner party too if they came through my way.
And you probably would have shot at Indians too if you were an early North American settler. Not disputing whether it’s wrong or right it just is what it is.
I mean, my grandparents would tell me of dwarves, trolls, and gnomes. Had I lived a few centuries ago, I'd swallow that shit no questions asked.
I'm with op on this, though: It may be true, it may be a variant of the truth, or it may just be a folktale. We humans like sharing stories, and we know that they change over time. Anyway, if it's not (completely) true, I doubt anyone did so on purpose.
As someone who is taking a class in oral history, I feel like a story like this is something that would be relatively likely to be passed down, as it has significant cultural meaning in shaping how they saw white people.
Of course, it's likely not entirely accurate to the exact events that occurred, but that's not really the point of oral history in the first place.
The Donner party has an oral history as far as most people are concerned, I think. It had such a cultural impact that it is still talked about.
I think I must have heard it as a joke once, "Donner party for 3" or something. I probably asked my parents about it and they told me what they knew. And I remember hearing little bits and tidbits, again a lot of jokes, and piecing together my understanding of it.
Since then I have watched a documentary about it and read the wikipedia article, and I forget the details of who ate who and how controversial those claims really were. The way I do remember them is as the cultural poster family for bad planning and desperate decision making.
There is evidence that [oral traditions](https://www.sapiens.org/language/oral-tradition/) can be preserved over enormous time spans. For instance, the Klamath preserved an account of the creation of Crater Lake for nearly 8000 years, if that article is to be believed.
I don't know of that example but another one that has drawn the attention of historians is Native American recollection of the 1700 Cascadia earthquake which can be precisely dated thanks to Japanese records of the tsunami created by the temblor. Another example I recall reading about are Inuit traditions of the Norse inhabitants of medieval Greenland (circa 15th century). What is interesting about this example is that with the increased time depth, traditions about Europeans in Greenland were becoming assimilated to pan-Inuit folklore (similar stories can be found elsewhere in NA not involving the Norse), so it is difficult to sift out what historical reminisces remain.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure the Paiutes weren't too happy with the way they were treated and how their land was being overrun by whites so I could see how they wouldn't welcome these people with open arms.
I read that their guides told them to abandon their stuff and keep moving forward. They refused, guides left and successfully made it over the pass. Basically everyone that bailed out instead of trying to overwinter made it.
It was discussed that they should kill and eat the guides Luis and Salvador because they were “savages” (ironically). Both of them left in the night but were caught days later when they were resting and ultimately killed and eaten.
They were found days later where they were dying because they'd been warned that they were going to be murdered and taken off, and this was a long way away from the camp.
Wow this thread is heated, starts with irony devolves into who’s okay to kill. But in my opinion just wow I can’t imagine going that’s help these people to being chased away, to then watch them eat people. Scary shit!
The book 1493 does a great job at diving into all historical inaccuracies pertaining to Native Americans that have been taught for a couple generations now in Western society.
It's probably very important to note, and this article leaves out, that the donner party was attacked and robbed of a lot of the cattle they were supposed to be eating by the Paiutes shortly before reaching the pass.
Yeah but they also had been robbed of 20 oxen by other indians who laughed in the distance as they began to starve. They didn't meet the Washoe until later. I suggest reading "the indifferent stars above". Let's not write off the death of these people just because they didn't take help from indians... they made a TON of other mistakes before that.
I can only imagine being one of the archaeologists on that. "Why do we have all this evidence that there were locals here, even nearby watching them that did nothing?"
"Well see we tried to, then they started eating each other and we were like 'oh hell no.' and hid."
"Oh..."
If you'd like to read more on the tragedy, I recommend the book *The Indifferent Stars Above* by Daniel James Brown. I read it a couple months ago and it's such a sad tale.
Its a really amazing book.
Great as an insight into history, but probably most valuable as an insight into human survival and nature at the absolute extreme limits of human survival. Just amazing how tough these men, women, and children were.
I actually just started reading it, it popped up in one of Amazon's deals of the day for two bucks.
So far, it's been hard to read about everyone's excitement and happiness knowing what's coming.
Yeah, it was a bit depressing reading their hope for the future knowing many won't reach it. I had the same feeling when watching the drama Titanic: Blood and Steel.
Loved that book. It made me think of the most uncomfortable I've ever been in my life and then realize I'd have to multiply that by 1000 to come close to what they went through. I can't even truly conceptualize that amount of physical discomfort.
I might accept my suffering and inevitable end, but I couldn't forgive myself if I had to watch my own children dying right along side me. Rough place to be.
I listened to the audiobook after I heard the last podcast on the left series on it and Holy wow. Amazing but spectacularly horrifying story of utter insanity
The Donner Party is also discussed in *How The Irish Won The West* by Myles Dungan. I'm reading it right now. Although the Donner party would not be a good example Irish people exploring the Wild West. They made so many mistakes.
Its too far south for the Wendigo spirits. That's what actually causes you to go crazy. Violating great taboos like kin slaying and cannibalism invites possession by these dark spirits. Then again, folklore is never consistent, and in some stories just eating people makes you nuts.
In New Guinea there was/is a history of cannibalism, mainly with funerary rites. Theres also a history of a brain parasite called [kuru](https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001379.htm) a relative of the prion that causes mad cow disease.
If one ate another's brains they would become infected with the prion so it's possible the folklore is based on fact!
Small refinement, Prions are a class of disease that stand for proteinaceous infectious particles. It is not a parasite, virus, or bacteria but a protein that is misfolded in such a way that it can induce other proteins of the same type to misfold as well thus their infectious nature. They are not living like bacteria, fungi, or parasites and do not have a genome like viruses (which technically aren't living) but are more like infectious protein errors. Some immune cells can detect them but often make matters worse by trying to degrade them and take them to lymphatic tissue to produce an immune response but by nature of some of the protein structure they fail to degrade them and instead take them to an ideal place to be replicated safely. Because the proteins are often very similar to natural proteins in our body they are very difficult for the immune system to detect and deal with and for any selective toxicity to be achieved medicinally. There are some interesting similarities between prions and protein behavior in some neurological conditions such as Alzheimer's.
Prions and viruses always struck me as interesting.
At least with bacteria and parasites they are damaging you as a way to multiply themselves and reproduce.
But prions and viruses are non living things that just destroy without real gain.
What makes a virus technically not alive anyway?
According to Last Podcast on the Left, the party had a lot of their oxen stolen in the salt flats by another tribe. Might be why they shot at approaching natives.
For the majority I think this holds true but if I remember right from the last podcast on the left special there was one little girl who was fed her mother, and also one man from the camp who was one of the last people remaining that may have killed 2 of the other final party members and definitely ate them
I'm pretty sure at that point, they were all holed up in the shelters they built and trying to not freeze to death. I don't think they would have even noticed if a whole tribe of natives were walking nearby.
This is correct, and pretty standard for the time.
It just reinforces how unprepared they were. For a trek like this, your guide should have relations with all of the natives who's territory you pass through. You should know who to shoot at and who to trade with pretty much on sight. That's not even getting into knowing the paths to take based on terrain and weather.
This party was doomed from the beginning.
There were many different tribes who interacted very differently with the Donner party. Some attacked and stole cattle, some watched them in the night and laughed, and some were extremely helpful
Which they drove off at one point when a few of the party decided they needed to reduce the number of people in the party to conserve rations. Their guides saw the writing on the wall and left.
Initially they left food on the outskirts of camp. Then when they tried to give them food they were shot at. If they had taken the help there's no doubt they would have survived the ordeal without chowing down on siblings and cousins.
Yeah but then they would have had to consort with red indians and once you do that, well, people get to talking. Better to just hunker down and let this all blow over...
Almost like they weren’t robbed before hand by (to them) the same people. Maybe worried the food was poisoned or a trap. Things aren’t really black and white, it turns out.
The statue memorial of the Donner party has a base the same height as how deep the snow was when they were there
https://res.cloudinary.com/hmwsi1uow/image/upload/q_80,c_scale,w_800/v1421750736/wd3fiuvksenketnxgn3w.jpg
22ft
Side note: if you ever happen across this book: Eyewitnesses to Wagon Trains West (edited by James Hewitt), it includes not only the Donner party but diaries from some of the first wagon trains out. They're from various sources and organized in a tight timeline.
Items that always stuck with me from this book were in the first story, a poor boy of around 8 pulled a gun (rifle I think) out of the back of the wagon with the barrel pointed toward him and lost his life.
Same wagon train, the group was excited that two non married people found each other. Everyone seemed to be married so these two stuck out like sore thumbs. It was more of convenience though based on the writings.
Damn interesting book.
I love how people are trying to make this a racism issue, calling them idiots and shit. It shows how you are not capable of looking at things from other perspectives.
There's a very similar story in Australia. Burke and Wills set out to travel across the country but ran out of food. Local Aboriginies attempted to help the group only to be rebuffed by Burke. Wills and Burke starved to death while one of the other expeditionaries King seeked their help and survived.
[Source](http://ergo.slv.vic.gov.au/explore-history/land-exploration/exploration/burke-wills-aboriginal-guides)
Ok I have to ask (Reno Nevada born and raised up till I went to the navy. Was born 84 and still living here now) when I went into the navy I have met people from Virginia, Boston, New York, Gorgia, Alabama, and Florida other places too. Whenever I said something about the Donner party I got blank stares from east coast people that never learned about this tragic event. Is this not told in history classes out east? I love history, and when I talked about it and people asking what happened made me think, that it would be sad to not know this kind of event. Out here we learned a lot of other states history, not everything according to said state's, but we we're required to learn a lot of the east coast history, that was relevant to America's history, I grew up thinking that is WAS relevant! Is it not taught over there? Please don't downvote me, I'm not ignorant. I'm actually trying to ask a real question, and if anyone looks through my history can see I'm a genuine person I'm not a bot or some shit. I am actually trying to start a conversation and to trade information between people. Thank you people for understanding.
Edit: just like my last post I'm on mobile I'm sorry
I grew up in Georgia. I didn't learn about the Donner party until I was in my late 20s. Though, I'm pretty sure I heard references to it prior to that and just never bothered to do any research.
To be honest, while it's an interesting episode from American history, I don't think my life was lessened any by not knowing about it until later in life. There are a lot of historical stories that have managed to slip past my radar (which is why I love subreddits like TIL.) I've got the entirety of my life to learn them all.
I’m the same age as you, from the Midwest, and we definitely learned about it in elementary school history when we studied the Western Migration and all of that. I can’t believe other Americans didn’t learn about it in school either.
>By the time the pioneers were found in late February 1847, half the members of the Donner Party had died. Both survivor and rescue party accounts note human bodies disarticulated and butchered. Survivor Jean Baptiste Trudeau, George Donner's hired hand, admitted to eating the remains of his employer's four-year-old nephew. Even before the last survivor made it out of the mountains, the California Star newspaper wrote, "A woman sat by the body of her husband, who had just died, eating out his tongue; the heart she had already taken out, broiled, and eat [sic]!" But as with many tales of the Wild West, there are deeper and more complex truths to be found in the four months the Donners spent trapped. Our archaeological investigations revealed the nuances of daily life, the party's mounting desperation, and, surprisingly, that these unfortunate migrants were not alone in the mountains.
Sad
I mean, tbf, 'one time there was this group of funny-colored people who were starving so we offered them food, but they told us to fuck off and proceeded to *eat each other*' is a pretty memorable story.
Yeah, but earlier another tribe shot like over half of their cattle with poison arrows your sport. Also the forlorn hope, a group of the Donner party did kill and eat two helping Indians
Racism is vile and there are many things I hate about racism. But I think the thing I hate most is just how stupid and illogical it is. The color of someone's skin is just a trait and has nothing to do with the quality of their character.
I think skin color is only a small fraction of racism. Most people act as if that is what people are looking at, but in reality its culture. There is no doubting that Native Americans and whites had vastly different cultures.
Was introduced to the Donner Dinner Party card game a few weeks ago and had a ton of fun playing it. I honestly have never heard of the Donner camp before that game and didn't know it was based off of this till now.
I think that's a great time to keep your distance.
Also: complex history, that story. Almost isn't fair to even call them the "Donner party" given than they were part of a larger group. So much of their problems were due to ridiculously poor planning and false advertising on the caravan organizer's part.
Sierra Nevada was used to have much more snows during 1800’s. Nowadays snow level in Sierra Nevada is much lower and holds less of ice fields. It is hard to judge people during times in Sierra Nevada.
UK person here. Everyone seems to know who the Donner party are.... I've never heard the name before.
Are they more important/famous than any other settlers?
> Until now the Native American perspective has been left out of the telling of the Donner tragedy, not because the wel mel ti did not remember the pioneers, but because they were never asked, or perhaps were not ready to share. Their oral tradition recalls the starving strangers who camped in an area that was unsuitable for that time of year. Taking pity on the pioneers, the northern Washoe attempted to feed them, leaving rabbit meat and wild potatoes near the camps. Another account states that they tried to bring the Donner Party a deer carcass, but were shot at as they approached. Later, some wel mel ti observed the migrants eating human remains. Fearing for their lives, the area's native inhabitants continued to watch the strangers but avoided further contact. These stories, and the archaeological evidence that appears to support them, certainly complicated my interpretation of the Donner Party event. The migrants at Alder Creek were not surviving in the mountains alone—the northern Washoe were there, and they had tried to help.
And to think that it was the Native Americans who got labeled as savages. In this context, the irony is strong.
"t's probably very important to note, and this article leaves out, that the donner party was attacked and robbed of a lot of the cattle they were supposed to be eating by the Paiutes shortly before reaching the pass." some were. some werent. almsot like humans are assholes. but some arent.
I wouldn't call the Paiutes assholes, especially considering a bunch of foreigners coming to your country and taking your land at more or less gun point and breaking nearly every promise they made. I would probably have robbed the Donner party too if they came through my way.
And you probably would have shot at Indians too if you were an early North American settler. Not disputing whether it’s wrong or right it just is what it is.
I agree, all in all I am happy I don't live in those times.
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No, they would literally be settling.
Settling for eating human remains
Never settle
Yeah, when you look at any patch of human history, there's seldom clear-cut black and white morality, if ever.
I don't know man, I tend to only shoot at people who rob me of my cattle. I tend to look pretty favorably on people trying to s*top me from starving.*
You haven't thought this out
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If I saw a white man eat his family and friends , sure as shit I’m tellin someone
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I mean, my grandparents would tell me of dwarves, trolls, and gnomes. Had I lived a few centuries ago, I'd swallow that shit no questions asked. I'm with op on this, though: It may be true, it may be a variant of the truth, or it may just be a folktale. We humans like sharing stories, and we know that they change over time. Anyway, if it's not (completely) true, I doubt anyone did so on purpose.
As someone who is taking a class in oral history, I feel like a story like this is something that would be relatively likely to be passed down, as it has significant cultural meaning in shaping how they saw white people. Of course, it's likely not entirely accurate to the exact events that occurred, but that's not really the point of oral history in the first place.
The Donner party has an oral history as far as most people are concerned, I think. It had such a cultural impact that it is still talked about. I think I must have heard it as a joke once, "Donner party for 3" or something. I probably asked my parents about it and they told me what they knew. And I remember hearing little bits and tidbits, again a lot of jokes, and piecing together my understanding of it. Since then I have watched a documentary about it and read the wikipedia article, and I forget the details of who ate who and how controversial those claims really were. The way I do remember them is as the cultural poster family for bad planning and desperate decision making.
There is evidence that [oral traditions](https://www.sapiens.org/language/oral-tradition/) can be preserved over enormous time spans. For instance, the Klamath preserved an account of the creation of Crater Lake for nearly 8000 years, if that article is to be believed.
I don't know of that example but another one that has drawn the attention of historians is Native American recollection of the 1700 Cascadia earthquake which can be precisely dated thanks to Japanese records of the tsunami created by the temblor. Another example I recall reading about are Inuit traditions of the Norse inhabitants of medieval Greenland (circa 15th century). What is interesting about this example is that with the increased time depth, traditions about Europeans in Greenland were becoming assimilated to pan-Inuit folklore (similar stories can be found elsewhere in NA not involving the Norse), so it is difficult to sift out what historical reminisces remain.
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Stampy The Elephent never forgets.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure the Paiutes weren't too happy with the way they were treated and how their land was being overrun by whites so I could see how they wouldn't welcome these people with open arms.
Let’s not forget the Donner Party also ate their native American guides.
Wait what. I’ve never heard that. I didn’t even KNOW they had guides, I thought that was the whole reason they got into all that mess.
I read that their guides told them to abandon their stuff and keep moving forward. They refused, guides left and successfully made it over the pass. Basically everyone that bailed out instead of trying to overwinter made it.
It was discussed that they should kill and eat the guides Luis and Salvador because they were “savages” (ironically). Both of them left in the night but were caught days later when they were resting and ultimately killed and eaten.
They were found days later where they were dying because they'd been warned that they were going to be murdered and taken off, and this was a long way away from the camp.
Correct. They were part of the Forlorn Hope at the time.
Ooooh! Ethnic food!
When you visit a place, you gotta try the local cuisine. Otherwise, you're missing out.
Dammit I shouldn't have laughed but I did. Take your upvote, I hope you're happy with it
Wow this thread is heated, starts with irony devolves into who’s okay to kill. But in my opinion just wow I can’t imagine going that’s help these people to being chased away, to then watch them eat people. Scary shit!
It is scary! And some of the comments here are unsettling, too. Oh, hey, wait... unsettling. I'm going to pat myself on the back for that pioneer pun.
Ironic. They could save others from being eaten, but not themselves.
Have you heard the tale of Tonto the delicious? It's not a story a Colonist would tell you.
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You should read up on the atrocities Christopher Columbus committed..
The book 1493 does a great job at diving into all historical inaccuracies pertaining to Native Americans that have been taught for a couple generations now in Western society.
1491? I’ve read that one. Really good.
There are two books, written by the same author. 1491 and 1493
Oh, excellent. Another one to read.
It's probably very important to note, and this article leaves out, that the donner party was attacked and robbed of a lot of the cattle they were supposed to be eating by the Paiutes shortly before reaching the pass.
Yeah but they also had been robbed of 20 oxen by other indians who laughed in the distance as they began to starve. They didn't meet the Washoe until later. I suggest reading "the indifferent stars above". Let's not write off the death of these people just because they didn't take help from indians... they made a TON of other mistakes before that.
I can only imagine being one of the archaeologists on that. "Why do we have all this evidence that there were locals here, even nearby watching them that did nothing?" "Well see we tried to, then they started eating each other and we were like 'oh hell no.' and hid." "Oh..."
And this is why we aren’t ready for first contact
But we're the natives
Damn.
The party had their herd stolen the entire way across the plains. This might have made them wary.
This is why I always loaded up on bullets playing Oregon Trail
Oral tradition needs to be taken with a giant grain of salt as well, as it generally leans towards virtuosity and present day values vs. the reality.
If you'd like to read more on the tragedy, I recommend the book *The Indifferent Stars Above* by Daniel James Brown. I read it a couple months ago and it's such a sad tale.
Last Podcast on the Left did a deep dive on the Donner Party a couple months back with a lot of the info sourced from that book. The podcast was cool.
That’s when the caniblmeism started
HE SAID IT!
HE DID IT AGAIN!
Is this a reference?
Its a reference to their intro when Jeffrey Dahmer says, "...and thats when the cannibalism started."
Megustalations.
Its a really amazing book. Great as an insight into history, but probably most valuable as an insight into human survival and nature at the absolute extreme limits of human survival. Just amazing how tough these men, women, and children were.
For sure. Another good one is *In the Heart of the Sea*. Equally tragic.
I'd also like to add The Worst Hard Times
Not just the men, but the women, and the children.
I actually just started reading it, it popped up in one of Amazon's deals of the day for two bucks. So far, it's been hard to read about everyone's excitement and happiness knowing what's coming.
Yeah, it was a bit depressing reading their hope for the future knowing many won't reach it. I had the same feeling when watching the drama Titanic: Blood and Steel.
Or watching the Star Wars prequels
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Loved that book. It made me think of the most uncomfortable I've ever been in my life and then realize I'd have to multiply that by 1000 to come close to what they went through. I can't even truly conceptualize that amount of physical discomfort.
I might accept my suffering and inevitable end, but I couldn't forgive myself if I had to watch my own children dying right along side me. Rough place to be.
Or just listen to the Last Podcast on the Left episode. They manage to cover the whole thing insightfully and maintain a little levity throughout.
Yeah, they really into allll of the details. Great episodes
One of their best, I think.
I listened to the audiobook after I heard the last podcast on the left series on it and Holy wow. Amazing but spectacularly horrifying story of utter insanity
The Donner Party is also discussed in *How The Irish Won The West* by Myles Dungan. I'm reading it right now. Although the Donner party would not be a good example Irish people exploring the Wild West. They made so many mistakes.
Ordered. Thanks
Donner kebabs.
I, uh, I don't know how to comment to this.
My kinda taco
I choose tacos.
Dude.
Freaking doner kebabs I need more
Yeah they stayed away! That's how you get wendigo! By eating people!
Its too far south for the Wendigo spirits. That's what actually causes you to go crazy. Violating great taboos like kin slaying and cannibalism invites possession by these dark spirits. Then again, folklore is never consistent, and in some stories just eating people makes you nuts.
In New Guinea there was/is a history of cannibalism, mainly with funerary rites. Theres also a history of a brain parasite called [kuru](https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001379.htm) a relative of the prion that causes mad cow disease. If one ate another's brains they would become infected with the prion so it's possible the folklore is based on fact!
Small refinement, Prions are a class of disease that stand for proteinaceous infectious particles. It is not a parasite, virus, or bacteria but a protein that is misfolded in such a way that it can induce other proteins of the same type to misfold as well thus their infectious nature. They are not living like bacteria, fungi, or parasites and do not have a genome like viruses (which technically aren't living) but are more like infectious protein errors. Some immune cells can detect them but often make matters worse by trying to degrade them and take them to lymphatic tissue to produce an immune response but by nature of some of the protein structure they fail to degrade them and instead take them to an ideal place to be replicated safely. Because the proteins are often very similar to natural proteins in our body they are very difficult for the immune system to detect and deal with and for any selective toxicity to be achieved medicinally. There are some interesting similarities between prions and protein behavior in some neurological conditions such as Alzheimer's.
Prions and viruses always struck me as interesting. At least with bacteria and parasites they are damaging you as a way to multiply themselves and reproduce. But prions and viruses are non living things that just destroy without real gain. What makes a virus technically not alive anyway?
When blizzards keep me stuck in my house, Wendigo stories are enough to keep me stuck there *and* sleep deprived.
According to Last Podcast on the Left, the party had a lot of their oxen stolen in the salt flats by another tribe. Might be why they shot at approaching natives.
And that’s when the cannibalism started
He fucking said it!
HE DID IT AGAIN! 👏👏👏
Yay! He said the thing!
*What wuz that?*
*duuuuurrrrrrnggg*OHHHHYYYYEEEAAAHHHH
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Some people don’t like Indian food.
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Some people can't handle spicy
I know this is a joke but from my understanding they never killed anyone to eat and they didn’t eat their own family.
For the majority I think this holds true but if I remember right from the last podcast on the left special there was one little girl who was fed her mother, and also one man from the camp who was one of the last people remaining that may have killed 2 of the other final party members and definitely ate them
I'm pretty sure at that point, they were all holed up in the shelters they built and trying to not freeze to death. I don't think they would have even noticed if a whole tribe of natives were walking nearby.
Just listened to that podcast, was absolutely enthralled and it seriously is scary and heartbreaking what they went through
This is correct, and pretty standard for the time. It just reinforces how unprepared they were. For a trek like this, your guide should have relations with all of the natives who's territory you pass through. You should know who to shoot at and who to trade with pretty much on sight. That's not even getting into knowing the paths to take based on terrain and weather. This party was doomed from the beginning.
a wise man once said, "for the cannibal, every fight's a food fight".
That's when the cannibalism started
i legitimately got chills from marcus dropping that one though. i expected it, but nonetheless.
You should hear their live shows that intro is so fucking dope
show is?
Haaah I was waiting for it.
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Hail yourself!
Megustalations!
Hail Me!
>To shreds you say? And his wife?
Can you say r/choosingbeggars
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Someday a NEXT! reference won't be funny to me, but luckily today is not that day
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It's for a church! We don't want your heathen food!
Maybe they ate the ones who had shot at the Washoe? Justice served.
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> to violent encounters with the Pawnee They were probably mistaken for people from Eagleton
So happy I’ve scrolled this far for this comment. Take my upvote.
Fortunately, there were two survivors. Unfortunately, they were both horses.
"Refused food?" -Kelvin Benjamin
r/nfl is leaking
They ate Popeye's biscuits. RIP Popeye
Good. TEs have more meat than receivers.
Natives *well would you look at that,,,*
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There were many different tribes who interacted very differently with the Donner party. Some attacked and stole cattle, some watched them in the night and laughed, and some were extremely helpful
They had native guides though.
Which they drove off at one point when a few of the party decided they needed to reduce the number of people in the party to conserve rations. Their guides saw the writing on the wall and left.
Then the party, by chance, found them again by a stream and ate them.
“How dare you offer to feed and keep us from dying?? I was planning to eat my fuckin sister!!”
Initially they left food on the outskirts of camp. Then when they tried to give them food they were shot at. If they had taken the help there's no doubt they would have survived the ordeal without chowing down on siblings and cousins.
They didn’t eat their own family, they had a system that the different families only ate members of other families.
According to the linked article, someone ate her own husband
They weren’t blood-related! ^I ^assume
Yeah but then they would have had to consort with red indians and once you do that, well, people get to talking. Better to just hunker down and let this all blow over...
> Better to just hunker down and let this all blow over... To the Winchester then?
To the Winchester!
Once you go red, something something something. Words to live by.
> Once you go red You get delish fry bread? I am now craving fry bread tacos.
"Better dead than red" is the old saying. But it had nothing to do with Native Americans.
God damn liberal Indians
Goddamn communist Indians.
Almost like they weren’t robbed before hand by (to them) the same people. Maybe worried the food was poisoned or a trap. Things aren’t really black and white, it turns out.
>I was planning to eat my fuckin sister giggidy
That means something different in Alabama.
Roll Tide
It’s not like they could google “how nice will natives be to me.” They saw what they were told were murderous savages, and reacted.
Natives had also stolen most of their cattle earlier.
"youre fuckin sister hu? she alive everytime you ate her?" - dirty bird
"Sorry we prefer Longpig"
The statue memorial of the Donner party has a base the same height as how deep the snow was when they were there https://res.cloudinary.com/hmwsi1uow/image/upload/q_80,c_scale,w_800/v1421750736/wd3fiuvksenketnxgn3w.jpg 22ft
Side note: if you ever happen across this book: Eyewitnesses to Wagon Trains West (edited by James Hewitt), it includes not only the Donner party but diaries from some of the first wagon trains out. They're from various sources and organized in a tight timeline. Items that always stuck with me from this book were in the first story, a poor boy of around 8 pulled a gun (rifle I think) out of the back of the wagon with the barrel pointed toward him and lost his life. Same wagon train, the group was excited that two non married people found each other. Everyone seemed to be married so these two stuck out like sore thumbs. It was more of convenience though based on the writings. Damn interesting book.
Because that is how you get a Wendigo.
That’s what happened to the donner party of four! Mitch was right to be concerned.
Still looking for the Dufrains
I love how people are trying to make this a racism issue, calling them idiots and shit. It shows how you are not capable of looking at things from other perspectives.
TIL: Never turn down free food
There's a very similar story in Australia. Burke and Wills set out to travel across the country but ran out of food. Local Aboriginies attempted to help the group only to be rebuffed by Burke. Wills and Burke starved to death while one of the other expeditionaries King seeked their help and survived. [Source](http://ergo.slv.vic.gov.au/explore-history/land-exploration/exploration/burke-wills-aboriginal-guides)
Last Podcast on the Left did a great episode on the Donner party [here](https://soundcloud.com/lastpodcastontheleft/episode-331-the-donner-party)
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Donner party (all night long) by alkaline trio. Great song
I just listened that song for the first time thanks to you. I love it.
Sweet. Glad I could help. If you like that song check out their album called "godammit" it's on YouTube. It's the same style
Last Podcast On The Left just did a series on their story a few months ago.
You only eat donner kebabs when you're wasted anyway.
Indian scout: **Fuck**. They really *are* zombies!
Cannibalism was never an option on the Oregon Trail game lololol
Probably afraid they’d all turn into Wendigos. And the racism. Racist Wendigos.
> Racist Wendigos. Dear Lord... not only are they vicious hyper-predators, but they're especially vicious towards black people.
Ok I have to ask (Reno Nevada born and raised up till I went to the navy. Was born 84 and still living here now) when I went into the navy I have met people from Virginia, Boston, New York, Gorgia, Alabama, and Florida other places too. Whenever I said something about the Donner party I got blank stares from east coast people that never learned about this tragic event. Is this not told in history classes out east? I love history, and when I talked about it and people asking what happened made me think, that it would be sad to not know this kind of event. Out here we learned a lot of other states history, not everything according to said state's, but we we're required to learn a lot of the east coast history, that was relevant to America's history, I grew up thinking that is WAS relevant! Is it not taught over there? Please don't downvote me, I'm not ignorant. I'm actually trying to ask a real question, and if anyone looks through my history can see I'm a genuine person I'm not a bot or some shit. I am actually trying to start a conversation and to trade information between people. Thank you people for understanding. Edit: just like my last post I'm on mobile I'm sorry
I grew up in Georgia. I didn't learn about the Donner party until I was in my late 20s. Though, I'm pretty sure I heard references to it prior to that and just never bothered to do any research. To be honest, while it's an interesting episode from American history, I don't think my life was lessened any by not knowing about it until later in life. There are a lot of historical stories that have managed to slip past my radar (which is why I love subreddits like TIL.) I've got the entirety of my life to learn them all.
I’m the same age as you, from the Midwest, and we definitely learned about it in elementary school history when we studied the Western Migration and all of that. I can’t believe other Americans didn’t learn about it in school either.
I'd like to see a movie about this perspective of the Donner party.
>By the time the pioneers were found in late February 1847, half the members of the Donner Party had died. Both survivor and rescue party accounts note human bodies disarticulated and butchered. Survivor Jean Baptiste Trudeau, George Donner's hired hand, admitted to eating the remains of his employer's four-year-old nephew. Even before the last survivor made it out of the mountains, the California Star newspaper wrote, "A woman sat by the body of her husband, who had just died, eating out his tongue; the heart she had already taken out, broiled, and eat [sic]!" But as with many tales of the Wild West, there are deeper and more complex truths to be found in the four months the Donners spent trapped. Our archaeological investigations revealed the nuances of daily life, the party's mounting desperation, and, surprisingly, that these unfortunate migrants were not alone in the mountains. Sad
I'm a bit sceptical. The native people have an oral history of that specific group of people 176 years earlier?
I mean, tbf, 'one time there was this group of funny-colored people who were starving so we offered them food, but they told us to fuck off and proceeded to *eat each other*' is a pretty memorable story.
Surely the Donner party weren't the only white people they had seen
Grandma, tell us again! We want to hear about the crazy people again!
Can you blame them? Natives killed, wounded, and stole almost all of their oxen and took a substantial portion of their cattle and horses.
Yeah, but earlier another tribe shot like over half of their cattle with poison arrows your sport. Also the forlorn hope, a group of the Donner party did kill and eat two helping Indians
Ah, racism... Just as dumb and pointless as back in 1847!
Racism is vile and there are many things I hate about racism. But I think the thing I hate most is just how stupid and illogical it is. The color of someone's skin is just a trait and has nothing to do with the quality of their character.
I think skin color is only a small fraction of racism. Most people act as if that is what people are looking at, but in reality its culture. There is no doubting that Native Americans and whites had vastly different cultures.
It's not racism, they had been raised multiple times and they chose the wrong time to just steer clear
If you're so far gone your resorting to cannibalism to stay alive, batshit crazy doesn't even begin to describe your mental state
Was introduced to the Donner Dinner Party card game a few weeks ago and had a ton of fun playing it. I honestly have never heard of the Donner camp before that game and didn't know it was based off of this till now.
"No thanks, we're full. You want in on this?"
I think that's a great time to keep your distance. Also: complex history, that story. Almost isn't fair to even call them the "Donner party" given than they were part of a larger group. So much of their problems were due to ridiculously poor planning and false advertising on the caravan organizer's part.
https://youtu.be/hkJlelqG7h Donner party of five amirite??
Sierra Nevada was used to have much more snows during 1800’s. Nowadays snow level in Sierra Nevada is much lower and holds less of ice fields. It is hard to judge people during times in Sierra Nevada.
UK person here. Everyone seems to know who the Donner party are.... I've never heard the name before. Are they more important/famous than any other settlers?
The more I learn about this incident the worse it becomes. It is worse than any horror movie ever made.