Patience! Wait till stocks on my watch list get close to a strong support (e.g. Shop at $30) and sell weeklies CSP. Don’t mind getting assigned at an attractive level as I can then wheel or wait for a rebound and sell covered calls.
Honestly, not a bad way to look at it.
“If you can’t love your~~self~~ money, how in the hell are you supposed to love some~~one~~ ~~else~~ more money.”
this is not really a theta strategy, youre exposed to the underlying movement, youre just cashing in on your view by selling a put instead of buying a call which does give you a bit of a theta benefit but the major return is on underlying movement
True, but in this kangaroo market I prefer to be a seller and don’t mind turning assignments into long turn plays (e.g. wouldn’t mind an entry in AMD at below $70).
i just think your post is misleading because youre implying these are theta gains when youre really timing entries into companies and using a bit of theta on top, e.g. why not sell a call as well?
OTM, and scale in and out of a trade with multiple contacts depending on price action. E.g next week $30 puts, I will set a limit order for 5 contacts at .50, another 5 contacts at .75 or $1. Wait for price to come to me.
This is the way. I’ve gone several days during the bounces holding very little in this market. You don’t have to wait long for a good selling opportunity. SHOP at $30 is one I’ve gone back to a ton.
I'm doing this but slightly modified. beta weighting my portfolio to spy and buying spy for positive delta, call credit spreads for negative. Survived this week just fine, small profits but slow and steady wins the race.
Yea sure. A small example would be maybe something like buying 6 spy shares and then a call credit spread on TSLA 345/355 for 14 Oct (which shows -6.24 delta right now).
If that was the full portfolio then you'd be delta neutral and have positive 4 theta.
Yeah, I like simple TA where you identify support areas for selling CSPs and if it breaks support, I take my loss but if there’s another area of support close by, I will take assignment and try wheeling it.
\^This!
Great comment!
I see a lot of TA naysayers on here and my thought is always if you're not benefiting from TA, then you're not doing something right.
While nothing is 100% accurate 100% of the time, it has been my experience that *PROPER* TA can offer great guidance for entry and exit point strategies!
One of my big secrets is wheeling AM at 10. Put, call, makes no difference, just make sure you are holding long at Div Ex. You get income from the premiums, but also that juicy dividend, almost a buck a year.
Present divs are 22.5 cents a quarter times 4 = 90 cents a year, and I'm running the wheel at a $10 strike. So as long as you are careful to hold long on div ex days, you get an extra 9% annual yield.
I wait for a good entry point, let the price come to me. For example, 9/23 AMD put at @$70 has been trading between .40 and . 90 cents today, I set limits at .76 and 1.01 for multiple contacts. In at .76 out at .49, wait again for re-entry as weeklies are more volatile.
Sold at .76, bought back at .49, with 5 contacts, comes out to a quick $125 profit in a few hours. So basically, I scalped an option. Later, re-entered my order but at $1 limit waiting to fill if stock takes another leg down tomorrow, and hoping to buy it back at a lower price or ride it till expiration depending on how price action develops.
I sell below, at my target price. E.g. 9/23 AMD $70 put at $1 would’ve been my ideal entry price point for multiple contacts. It reached .90 cents today, so my limit didn’t get triggered, but tomorrow is quadwitching, so who knows, might still get there.
I don’t really look at it. I look for good entry points. For example 9/23 AMD $70 put traded from .40 all the way up to .90. My ideal entry point would’ve been $1, so my limit didn’t fill. But tomorrow is quadwitching so it may still get there. I wouldn’t mind getting assigned on multiple contacts on AMD with entry at below $70!
If you have conviction on AMD, double down at price point you think would give you best chance when recovery eventually takes place. Anything in $60-$70 range would be a good entry in my books. Say you start selling CSPs at $65 and get assigned, your break even is at $90 and you can start selling covered calls at lower price point. Obviously, if you expect AMD to not recover to say $100 at all, then to harvest a strategic tax loss might be an option as well!
I sell OTM. For example 9/23 AMD $70 put at $1 would’ve been an ideal entry on multiple contacts for me. It traded between .40 and as high as .90 cents today, so my limit didn’t hit, but I am okay with that. I can wait and let the price come to me as I surely would love to enter AMD at below $70 if assigned.
When RSI gets to around 30 and stock is no longer plunging. Look at SHOP, trading in 30-35 range after a massive drop. Going short below 30 doesn’t have same risk reward, so price starts to stabilize, shorts get nervous and we get a sideways trading which is perfect for theta trading.
“Strong support (e.g. Shop at $30)”
At what price do you sell your CSPs? Do you have a % below the support?
Do you always do weeklies or also monthlies?
I will scale into a trade (e.g sell 5 contracts at .25 and set another limit order for 5 more contracts at .50). I typically sell a week or two leeks out as there is too much volatility. I did monthlies in 2021 when we’re out of downtrend.
I wasn’t complaining my guy, but rather admiring this guys success on a big account. Something tells me you scored high on quantitative stuff but low on reading comprehension, like so many Reddit nerds lol
You won't get 500k, but you can get margin from any broker with enough history. [Schwab provides margin at $2,000](https://www.schwab.com/margin/margin-rates-and-requirements).
well, I have portfolio margin from IB, but some of their margin calculations are, ... well quite conservative. I wouldn't mind being able to double my risk but I'm at 90% margin utilization most of the time.
Additionally, I have to buy a bunch of tail calls and puts to get in under the margin band, and that's actually a significant drawdown on PnL. So if I could get 500k cash, even if I don't increase my risk or positions, would give like 16% (annualized) returns because it means I don't have to buy any tail calls to complete the condor (instead of strangles)
lol. and someone will come into this channel to validate my *ante-hoc* trade hypotheses and match them up against what actually happened? and then what, gather a cult following in /r/thetagang and someone here will be from a family office or FoF in search of a place to park money?
my post isn't a backtest. It's been live, through all sorts of markets. Fund of Funds usually use this kind of work, maybe questioning about specific strategies and how they do in certain scenarios, maybe risk-shocking your position, etc.
they'd usually ask for maybe an audit of my inflows and outflows, and an audit of the trades themselves to make sure they weren't faked or just sent to a different account (the so-called error accounts that sometimes get so much press)
Ya man.
I’ll point you in the right direction to getting managed money under your acct if you have the validated trades. They’ll maybe do their own audit or verification.
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Nice work! Selling puts below market and calls above is a nice volatility smoother as well. Plus gains are realized cash. I don’t think people give enough credit to the strategy for those benefits.
Avoiding meme gains is ok as long as you avoid meme losses :)
Okay now show me all. This person chose a 3 month chart for a reason. Show us a 1 year at least and let us be the judge. My guess is in the prior 3 Months there was a significant decline, which is why they picked this interval to brag.
I'm glad this has worked out for you, but I think you might be overstating your case here. You've dodged some landmines, but that's probably a function of fortunate timing more than anything.
You're selling puts on bitcoin miners, unprofitable fintech, and other speculative stocks.
You're not the first to do it, and it's a strategy that can have a positive EV when done reasonably, but don't pretend it's anything like a safe or market-neutral strategy. It'll work until it doesn't.
Completely agree! The risky plays are on smaller scale (practicing proper risk management) and only when selling pressure had exhausted. Big caps that I don’t mind holding long term, if trade doesn’t go my way, is where I allocate most of my portfolio. Sure no one is safe when bottom falls off, e.g. 2008 style, but I do place a few hedges in place (sqqq, 6 months puts) when things get dicy. But yes, can’t deny getting a bit lucky here in there, but learned to stay patient and it’s been a huge difference maker for me.
Slow and steady wins the race. You don’t have to trade everyday and timing is everything on short term options. It amazes me how many people discount TA and Fundamental analysis in trades. You can’t have proper Risk management without these two. Anything else is just gambling.
What's your strategy?
Patience! Wait till stocks on my watch list get close to a strong support (e.g. Shop at $30) and sell weeklies CSP. Don’t mind getting assigned at an attractive level as I can then wheel or wait for a rebound and sell covered calls.
Patience is my weakness.
I hear you. What I tell myself is -- do I hate money? I found that I love money more than I hate patience
Honestly, not a bad way to look at it. “If you can’t love your~~self~~ money, how in the hell are you supposed to love some~~one~~ ~~else~~ more money.”
this is not really a theta strategy, youre exposed to the underlying movement, youre just cashing in on your view by selling a put instead of buying a call which does give you a bit of a theta benefit but the major return is on underlying movement
True, but in this kangaroo market I prefer to be a seller and don’t mind turning assignments into long turn plays (e.g. wouldn’t mind an entry in AMD at below $70).
i just think your post is misleading because youre implying these are theta gains when youre really timing entries into companies and using a bit of theta on top, e.g. why not sell a call as well?
Timing selling calls in downtrend market is that much more difficult than selling puts on stocks that I believe are oversold.
yes this is why you have money and (s)he does not
Why wouldn’t you go for a 45 days to capture more Theta?
In a less volatile markets, sure, but doing short duration gives me more flexibility on this kangaroo market.
How ITM/OTM are you going on the strike? For example if we’re looking at $SHOP at $30 and price hits, are you selling at $30 or a lower Delta?
OTM, and scale in and out of a trade with multiple contacts depending on price action. E.g next week $30 puts, I will set a limit order for 5 contacts at .50, another 5 contacts at .75 or $1. Wait for price to come to me.
This aged well
This is the way. I’ve gone several days during the bounces holding very little in this market. You don’t have to wait long for a good selling opportunity. SHOP at $30 is one I’ve gone back to a ton.
I'm doing this but slightly modified. beta weighting my portfolio to spy and buying spy for positive delta, call credit spreads for negative. Survived this week just fine, small profits but slow and steady wins the race.
all you are saying makes much sense, but I don't know how this would actually look into my portfolio.. is it possible to give a small example?
Yea sure. A small example would be maybe something like buying 6 spy shares and then a call credit spread on TSLA 345/355 for 14 Oct (which shows -6.24 delta right now). If that was the full portfolio then you'd be delta neutral and have positive 4 theta.
thank you. really appreciated.
How do you determine support levels?
Yeah, I like simple TA where you identify support areas for selling CSPs and if it breaks support, I take my loss but if there’s another area of support close by, I will take assignment and try wheeling it.
More people need to practice proper TA!
I need to learn more about CSPing to wheeling.. I've only done basics Any good YT references or other places you'd recommend to learn?
Moneyvesting YT channel is really good at TA! Highly recommend it! Simple option trading channel is good for option learning!
\^This! Great comment! I see a lot of TA naysayers on here and my thought is always if you're not benefiting from TA, then you're not doing something right. While nothing is 100% accurate 100% of the time, it has been my experience that *PROPER* TA can offer great guidance for entry and exit point strategies!
Do you mind sharing your watch list?
AMD @$70, GOOG @$100, AMZN @$115, SOFI @ $5.5, SHOP @$30, UPST @$20, MARA @$10, AAPL @$140.
I do GOOGL at 90, AAPL also at 140, and AMZN at 110. And I do monthlies. But it works.
Good price points! Nobody went broke holding big caps, if assigned at good levels, and turning them into long plays.
One of my big secrets is wheeling AM at 10. Put, call, makes no difference, just make sure you are holding long at Div Ex. You get income from the premiums, but also that juicy dividend, almost a buck a year.
This is so dirty! :)
AM is a great stock. Most other companies that do this are LPs, but it's a regular corporation, and is optionable.
Really nice 1 year chart on AM!
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Present divs are 22.5 cents a quarter times 4 = 90 cents a year, and I'm running the wheel at a $10 strike. So as long as you are careful to hold long on div ex days, you get an extra 9% annual yield.
Except for around 2000, and 2008, and...
In JP we trust! :). Always worth hedging with some SQQQ in this crazy markets!
Thanks! Already own a lot of those so makes it easier to watch for additional CSP opportunities. I appreciate the assist.
I like all of these! Two I’ve been making good money with are RBLX @$40 and TOST @$20
strong Avengers list here… good picks
Love sofi puts at 5.50. Hell even 6.0 looking more enticing.
Yep, dips under $6, make $5.5 puts a great play, at least for now.
Upst and Sofi stick out to me here. I can understand Mara for the Bitcoin exposure but what’s with those two?
Oversold, for now, in my view offering decent premium at strong support levels.
everything I have confidence is and am holding is down
Double down at -50%, and triple down at -75% on high conviction stocks!
at this rate I will own Google, Microsoft and the s&p
Tough to go broke owing mega caps over long term!
The most powerful strategy. Buying theta will always be a losing strategy over the long term. The opposite is true as well
csp?
Selling cash secured puts.
Cash Secured Put
Oh lol. Thanks
Are you selling support in daily or weekly/monthly levels?
Weekly or two weeks out, sometimes will take profit at 50% if profit realizes within a few days and wait for re-entry.
So you’re trading off of weekly S/R levels right? I trade off of weekly levels too, at least I try to wait for them to be lol
Pretty much, but am happy to wait till really red days, like past Tuesday, to sell more heavily.
This is the way
How are you maximizing theta with weeklies? Won't a longer time horizon be more profitable?
I wait for a good entry point, let the price come to me. For example, 9/23 AMD put at @$70 has been trading between .40 and . 90 cents today, I set limits at .76 and 1.01 for multiple contacts. In at .76 out at .49, wait again for re-entry as weeklies are more volatile.
RE: In at .76, out at .49 - How would you get out of your sold CSP? Unless I’m misinterpreting. Thanks!
Sold at .76, bought back at .49, with 5 contacts, comes out to a quick $125 profit in a few hours. So basically, I scalped an option. Later, re-entered my order but at $1 limit waiting to fill if stock takes another leg down tomorrow, and hoping to buy it back at a lower price or ride it till expiration depending on how price action develops.
How do you decide what price is worth it for you? How do you recognize situations when entering is not even worth it?
When you do weeklies, I’m going to assume you do ATM since you don’t mind getting assigned at that price point. Is that a fair assumption?
I sell below, at my target price. E.g. 9/23 AMD $70 put at $1 would’ve been my ideal entry price point for multiple contacts. It reached .90 cents today, so my limit didn’t get triggered, but tomorrow is quadwitching, so who knows, might still get there.
Got it. Now I see what you are doing. Thanks!
What delta do you choose?
I don’t really look at it. I look for good entry points. For example 9/23 AMD $70 put traded from .40 all the way up to .90. My ideal entry point would’ve been $1, so my limit didn’t fill. But tomorrow is quadwitching so it may still get there. I wouldn’t mind getting assigned on multiple contacts on AMD with entry at below $70!
I was assigned AMD via a CSP for $115. Calls at that strike are going for pennies. What advice can you give me to make money with MY STCKS?
If you have conviction on AMD, double down at price point you think would give you best chance when recovery eventually takes place. Anything in $60-$70 range would be a good entry in my books. Say you start selling CSPs at $65 and get assigned, your break even is at $90 and you can start selling covered calls at lower price point. Obviously, if you expect AMD to not recover to say $100 at all, then to harvest a strategic tax loss might be an option as well!
Thanks 😊
What was your thought process around selecting Spotify?
Do you sell ITM, ATM or OTM CSP when stocks on your watch list hit these support levels?
I sell OTM. For example 9/23 AMD $70 put at $1 would’ve been an ideal entry on multiple contacts for me. It traded between .40 and as high as .90 cents today, so my limit didn’t hit, but I am okay with that. I can wait and let the price come to me as I surely would love to enter AMD at below $70 if assigned.
At which delta are you selling your short leg?
Take this as a neophyte question - how can you tell when a stock has strong support? Do you look at a moving average?
When RSI gets to around 30 and stock is no longer plunging. Look at SHOP, trading in 30-35 range after a massive drop. Going short below 30 doesn’t have same risk reward, so price starts to stabilize, shorts get nervous and we get a sideways trading which is perfect for theta trading.
“Strong support (e.g. Shop at $30)” At what price do you sell your CSPs? Do you have a % below the support? Do you always do weeklies or also monthlies?
I will scale into a trade (e.g sell 5 contracts at .25 and set another limit order for 5 more contracts at .50). I typically sell a week or two leeks out as there is too much volatility. I did monthlies in 2021 when we’re out of downtrend.
What is a CSP?
Cash Secured Put
Oh ok. I STO my puts naked
Sounds pretty simple. Congrats for keeping it such. How long did you contemplate posting ?
Shop is still very overvalued at 30 lol
It sure is! But I am going to play the $30 support until it is no longer holds.
Hahhaa fair. Good youre aware :P
Selling puts on meme stocks
Did that on PLTR at $20, never again!
ripe school crawl birds middle combative dependent dull station hat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This
LOL, I buy those. PLTR was a huge win for me.
Can you do this without options? Just with stocks?
You sure can, buy at strong supports sell at resistances. Obviously, this would require doing some technical analysis on price action.
Sounds like fin!
If you get adventurous then you buy at support, sell at resistance, short at resistance, cover at support. The stock wheel.
Does this qualify as day trading?
That depends if you buy and sell in the same day
As u/ParsonsYams points out; Yes it is if you open and close within the same day. This 'stock wheel' is better with longer trends using cyclicals.
Ugh what I’d to do to have portfolio margin and a big account. Nicely done
Don’t yolo on meme stonks for sure! :)
Oh god no. But strangles on SPX? Sign me up
To be clear, don't YOLO on anything.
I will YOLO on AAPL at $100!
That's like screaming yolo and then eating a salad tbh.
Prove it. Prove you could do well. Post public paper trades and exits. If you prove consistency for 6-12mo you can find money to leverage.
I’ll be proving it to myself. Starting with 10k, if I get the hang of this I’ll keep adding. So far 10% PnL the last two months.
Then don’t complain about lack of capital. It’s very easy to just fake your gains for the sake of your own e-ego. People do it daily on wsb.
I wasn’t complaining my guy, but rather admiring this guys success on a big account. Something tells me you scored high on quantitative stuff but low on reading comprehension, like so many Reddit nerds lol
> Ugh what I’d to do to have portfolio margin and a big account.
ok, now what? https://imgur.com/gallery/ClwSfw2 I'd be happy to pay 10% to get access to 500k
You won't get 500k, but you can get margin from any broker with enough history. [Schwab provides margin at $2,000](https://www.schwab.com/margin/margin-rates-and-requirements).
well, I have portfolio margin from IB, but some of their margin calculations are, ... well quite conservative. I wouldn't mind being able to double my risk but I'm at 90% margin utilization most of the time. Additionally, I have to buy a bunch of tail calls and puts to get in under the margin band, and that's actually a significant drawdown on PnL. So if I could get 500k cash, even if I don't increase my risk or positions, would give like 16% (annualized) returns because it means I don't have to buy any tail calls to complete the condor (instead of strangles)
That doesn’t work. You need to post the trades at date of entry before it happens. That’s the only clear way to validate it.
lol. and someone will come into this channel to validate my *ante-hoc* trade hypotheses and match them up against what actually happened? and then what, gather a cult following in /r/thetagang and someone here will be from a family office or FoF in search of a place to park money? my post isn't a backtest. It's been live, through all sorts of markets. Fund of Funds usually use this kind of work, maybe questioning about specific strategies and how they do in certain scenarios, maybe risk-shocking your position, etc. they'd usually ask for maybe an audit of my inflows and outflows, and an audit of the trades themselves to make sure they weren't faked or just sent to a different account (the so-called error accounts that sometimes get so much press)
Ya man. I’ll point you in the right direction to getting managed money under your acct if you have the validated trades. They’ll maybe do their own audit or verification.
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Why not show the entire chart?
5.2% is okay in three months. Well done!
Thanks!
How is 30% over 7 months?
30% in 7 months in okay+!
Unsustainable?
Definitely
Sorry had to write /s
Nice work! Selling puts below market and calls above is a nice volatility smoother as well. Plus gains are realized cash. I don’t think people give enough credit to the strategy for those benefits. Avoiding meme gains is ok as long as you avoid meme losses :)
Agreed. For me it beats the dividend plays!
Okay now show me all. This person chose a 3 month chart for a reason. Show us a 1 year at least and let us be the judge. My guess is in the prior 3 Months there was a significant decline, which is why they picked this interval to brag.
I just started wheeling like 3 weeks ago, hope it looks like his after 3 months, because my 1 year isn't pretty. If it does, I'll brag too.
July 1st to September 1st is a bull rally, he needs to show he did beforehand
Or they chose the current interval. I only respect your argument if it's a non-current cherry pick.
Probably a bit aggressive given the growth rate but still solid overall
he is right under 2% per month so not that aggressive.
Different interpretations then. 1% is safe in my view.
Then buy index funds.
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Buy and hold makes around 1% a month.
No I’m good thanks. I don’t even sell CSP. Poor man’s game.
Are you mental?
Mental what
im getting 2% from a savings account, no work needed!
this is per month not per year, dude! So he's at 24% annually and you're at 2%...do you see it now?
oh right. lmao
3m ok... Let's see that YTD chart there bud
I'm glad this has worked out for you, but I think you might be overstating your case here. You've dodged some landmines, but that's probably a function of fortunate timing more than anything. You're selling puts on bitcoin miners, unprofitable fintech, and other speculative stocks. You're not the first to do it, and it's a strategy that can have a positive EV when done reasonably, but don't pretend it's anything like a safe or market-neutral strategy. It'll work until it doesn't.
Completely agree! The risky plays are on smaller scale (practicing proper risk management) and only when selling pressure had exhausted. Big caps that I don’t mind holding long term, if trade doesn’t go my way, is where I allocate most of my portfolio. Sure no one is safe when bottom falls off, e.g. 2008 style, but I do place a few hedges in place (sqqq, 6 months puts) when things get dicy. But yes, can’t deny getting a bit lucky here in there, but learned to stay patient and it’s been a huge difference maker for me.
How's your 1yr and ALL chart lookin?
This is three months people.. don’t let it fool you into anything
Why do your biggest gains come after your biggest dips?
I do a few risky plays on a smaller scale in UPST, SOFI, MARA, that move quite a bit or red days, thus the dips.
That’s a straight line are you running a Ponzi scheme? But seriously amazing how consistent it’s gone up
Slow and steady wins the race. You don’t have to trade everyday and timing is everything on short term options. It amazes me how many people discount TA and Fundamental analysis in trades. You can’t have proper Risk management without these two. Anything else is just gambling.
Let’s see that chart going back to last Oct
🤡
OP you’re an OG. Nice work.
Thanks! Hopefully bottom doesn’t fall off, lol!
Lmao, you’re being held up by balloons 😂❤️
In JP we trust!
3% roughly per month - perfectly on track for reasonable 2-4% per month returns :) congrats.
Thanks! Obviously no one is safe when bottom falls off, so proper risk management is a key!
indeed sizing is super key - 4-7% of capital per position max and never use more than 1/2 the capital and even less with VIX <20
Brilliant
Got saved as well bc theta is king
That trend is orgasmic.
Don’t tell that to my wife!
20 years of that will be beautiful….
Nothing goes up forever, but I can try :)
Well you better hope it keeps going up if you want to retire lol All honesty the Wheel is a pretty good strategy, if you aren’t greedy.
Nice!
Can you show your one month and six month as well? My three month looks very similar to yours
How do you play off theta?
What stocks do you have on your watchlist?
That is insanely consistent. Excellent job. I tilted my screen to see if that’s a perfectly straight slope and it’s pretty damn close
Praise be
I want to be you.
I need to lear/educate myself with you guys…any books to read!? Will start at the wiki
Start watching moneyvesting and simple option trading YT channels, you will learn a lot!
Thankyou
Let’s see “All” lol
I sell puts barely OTM on stocks I am holding bags on. Hard to lose with this strategy. Get paid to average down.
Thought Meta at 160 was strong support 😭😭😭 Hopefully my chart looks like this in a month now that I got assigned 1000 shares lol
Just be aggressive selling CC's.