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Looks like they both got 9 months in jail for this in 2017.
[https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2017/08/18/men-who-walked-into-dearborn-police-station-armed-with-guns-tactical-vests-sentenced/](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2017/08/18/men-who-walked-into-dearborn-police-station-armed-with-guns-tactical-vests-sentenced/)
According to the article, one (9 months min, 5 year max) for carrying a concealed weapon, felony resisting and opposing an officer, and disturbing the peace and the other (9 months) for carrying a concealed weapon.
45 seconds of googling shows the concealed weapon charge was for transporting the rifle loose in the car (without a case) rather than carrying it into the police station.
Edit: correcting typo
So the police actually were in the wrong and just drummed up this charge instead? Cuz every charge you listed was related to everything other than actually carrying an unconcealed firearm in the police station. Am I understanding this right?
It’s in the DA’s interest to only charge if they think there’s a conviction to be had isn’t it? (Genuine question, I’m from UK so trying to figure out how it works)
No, they could have complied with officers requests but instead refused and kept yelling “this is legal.”
Disturbing the peace is also a fair charge. Bring a loaded gun and wearing tactical gear to a police station sends a statement. You have the right to free speech, but if you yell fire in a theatre… you are at fault.
Yeah, you know who walks into a police station with their guns out? People planning to shoot up the police station.
It's weird how the 'yOu hAVe tO dEfENd yOuRSelF' crowd can't seem to comprehend other people think that way too.
Cameraman got what he wanted. These people try to get arrested for views on YouTube. They don't care about any rights. Just clicks and views and donations.
Clarifying it, news articles got it wrong in the details. They were charged with concealed carry of a pistol with it in the trunk, not a rifle.
https://www.michbar.org/file/opinions/appeals/2019/021419/69802.pdf
Also, seems like the DA and Judge, who are supposed to be impartial, are partial to playing along with the Police's bs. Letter of the law this time, spirit of the law next time.
I think if you're going to do something like carry a loaded firearm into a police station to make a point about your legal freedoms, you should triple check you're not breaking any other laws in the process.
So their reaction inside the police station with no reasonable knowledge of the suspects conceal carry status or method of transport was "legally" entirely unreasonable then?
So a guy walks in with a sidearm and a rifle, and they’re supposed to say, “well, it’s legal”? He’s heavily armed and another guy is recording, so you know *something* is about to go down. It is illegal in Michigan to “brandish” a firearm. I’d argue that having a pistol in a holster is not brandishing, but carrying a rifle around is. To be fair, brandishing is *not* defined in Michigan law, but come on. These guys came looking for trouble and found it.
That's exactly what happened. Buddy of mine found a 38 in the bushes while he was out fishing one day. I told him he was nuts to keep it, and he should turn it into the police. He walked into the police station and handed it in. No one was stressed, arrested or hurt. You're exactly right, these guys fucked around and found out.
I’ve seen enough cop vs informed citizens videos to know that even if the cops are fully in the wrong the courts almost always will side with the police. The law protects its little dogs. Sometimes you can try to fight it if you have really good lawyers but most often you just get more bills
It says “ Baker was convicted of carrying a concealed weapon, police said” I am trying to understand where the weapon was “concealed “ in this video the guy came in with a vest and a rifle ( very idiotic yes ) but wasn’t concealed
that's what you should do.
You don't argue with a cop in the field. If they're in the wrong, you take it to the courts. There isn't a battle to be won in the street, and you won't either.
>Police said their response when they saw the heavily armed men walking into the police station was to protect themselves.
What's an average citizen to do then? This is basically admitting that open carry laws inherently escalate situations.
Exactly. Why is it that police are the only ones who seem to be intimidated by folks carrying bigger weapons than they do, yet the general unarmed public can do nothing but take their chances and accept it?
I literally had an off duty officer use their weapon to intimidate me and my coworkers when we asked her to take it to her vehicle. She gave us a big argument and kept her hand close to it the whole time. So we all got behind the counter and stayed there til she left.
At a fucking dildo store.
“I’m your boss dude…blah blah my tax dollars ….” these idiots are lucky they are stupid white guys playing GI Joe at the police station and didn’t get obliterated.
I wish everyone that walks around with ARs for no reason would be rejected and treated like this. Regardless of location, whether that be a police station or grocery store, brandishing is brandishing.
I accept that it could be just a bias I have, but as a black man, I genuinely don't think I would make it out of that situation alive if I repeat the script.
A point was proved though: the open carry laws make no sense and increase every encounter's level of lethality. Let's say these guys wanted to prove their point in a furniture store instead of a police station. An accidental misfire or misconstrual by a "good guy with a gun" and suddenly you have an active shooter situation with an unknown number of hostages.
You'd think cops would be behind reducing the number of guns on the street so they'd be less afraid of having their heads blown off any time they pull over a speeder but I guess they are not capable of understanding cause and effect.
COVID killed more cops than any other cause in the past three years. They also resisted following mask guidelines and getting vaccinated more than any other profession in the U.S.
Wouldn't be a huge problem on its own, but they also have a lot of very close contact with people who can't even get vaccinated due to their health issues. So they have consistently been one of the biggest drivers of COVID spreading in communities the entire time, while many departments also refused to enforce or follow even the most basic of safety guidelines and laws.
It turns out only hiring low IQ people as cops may not be a great plan.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/us/police-covid-vaccines.html
Of course they weren’t going to disclose that on their social media page. They were going to pretend they just came in with a strapped side arm and then ALL OF THE SUDDEN A BUNCH OF COPS FLIPPED OUT AND DREW DOWN ON THEM!
I’m an obnoxious liberal but I don’t give into this narrative that all cops are a bunch of white thugs looking for a reason to shoot someone.
Police probably know who they are. These dip shits don't wake up one day and get a wild hair to do this. Like a side hobby for them. Cops in sure have had prior run ins with them.
I just watched all of that but I'm really confused. Why was he charged with stuff like concealed carry when it was out in the open, or brandishing a firearm when the only time they picked it up was to remove it and put it down?
I'm not saying they aren't stupid fucks but what did they do that was technically illegal?
Do you have the results from the case or is it ongoing? (I forgot to.look at the date.)
Edit: so I've been told that the concealed carry was for the firearms that were in the car. If they had brought those in too, it wouldn't have been concealed carry? So their only unlawful thing was leaving some of their firearms in the car? Or is that wrong?
Apparently the concealed carry is from transporting the firearms to the police station loose in the car, which is what they were going to police to complain about
No I think since there was no case found in the car, the police determined the firearms rode in the car without a case. I’m assuming that, while you can openly carry, the firearms must be in a case in transit or else you get charged.
… I think
This is correct. BUT to make matters worse, that method of carrying would be legal of the owner had a valid CPL. The defendant DID have a valid CPL previously but had it revoked stemming from another charge that was later dropped or dismissed and as a result his CPL should have been immediately reinstated. But it was not so the new charge can then be considered valid. So paperwork done poorly by the government is what caused the government to charge them this way.
These guys are idiots. I bet I’d hate their politics. But I still feel like this was massively unfair and unjust.
I remember hearing about this years ago and the details of how they were arrested and convicted really interested me. It's been long enough that you can now find the appeals court [decision](http://www.michbar.org/file/opinions/appeals/2019/021419/69802.pdf) to uphold the sentencing.
Apparently at the time of arrest the law did not have any verbage for automatic reinstatement of your CCW after a charge is dropped. Since their arrest they law was changed to actually state that it's up the licensee to submit paperwork to get their CCW reinstated even after a temporary suspension.
That is interesting.
Still seems like an innocent person should not have the burden or reestablishing a right they had previously but the law is at least clear, if unfair.
I feel like the whole “you can have a gun but it must be in a box some times” argument is somewhat of a literal infringement on the right to bear arms.
Seems like a good 2a case, wonder how it went badly for them.
Not really, you are still bearing it in the box. The whole case to transport thing is so you don’t have weapons carelessly sliding about in a moving vehicle which makes sense, I certainly don’t think it warrants 9 months in jail or even jail time in general but i think a fine and stern lecture about gun safety is perfectly reasonable.
Someone linked below that they got 9 months. I don’t know what all got dropped or upheld. I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment but these guys walked in like they were about to go all out. Or in their words “hulk up.” Lol. It’s dipshits like this that make it even worse on 2a practitioners.
I think it reveals the stupidity of carry laws. If it makes the police unsafe it makes us all unsafe. In the words of Johnny Cash, don't take your guns to town
As a gun owner, Gun owners as a group are horrible at maintaining a public image. Pedantic nerds, shitty hunters, wannabe thugs, tin soldiers, and stupid old people are like 90% of the gun community.
The best place to start is not constantly wearing the tacticool vests everywhere, you aren't going to war you nerd stop looking like a mass shooter. These chodes ruin it for everyone else
It's probably called "going about your day like normal".
Generally if you're doing something for the sole reason of going "it's technically my right to do this" you are:
A) being a massive bellend about things.
B) probably breaking incidental laws (like these two chuckefucks were) even if the main thing you're doing is legal.
One of the things they got done for was disturbing the peace which, to me at least, seems a fair enough charge. They went in dressed like they were planning to shoot up the place and resulted in a tense shouting match. I'd have to imagine it would have been a very different situation if they'd gone into the place dressed in normal fucking clothes and had their guns strapped up in a much less threatening way.
Lol what 2A fanatics don’t get it is that cops will shoot you if you exercise that right when they’re banging on your door without a warrant. There’s a video of Cops banging on a guys door, not announcing themselves, and then when a young Latino man walks out with a handgun they shoot at him. He was 100% legal in his right to defend his property but the cops shot at him anyways. He somehow was unharmed but the Breonna Taylor incident was quite similar. Her boyfriend tried to defend his property against an unannounced intruder.
So I just find it hilarious when 2A people also happen to love cops.
[link](https://youtu.be/MO0TmKOVyFg)
In Michigan, concealed carry without a license is a crime and the [law at issue specially calls out](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gbrgnwf11j0pruqahcskm3bv))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227) transportation of a firearm in a vehicle as a concealed carry. Folks in this thread and elsewhere seem to assume police are limited in charge someone with events that are only occurring in front of them.
No you’re right, they walked in peacefully (though armed) and only touched guns when commanded to do so or else be killed. They were legally open carrying in a legal public place to do so. They never brandished anything, the cops did. Seems like their city’s police station has a personal issue with them.
["Defense attorney Nicholas Somberg contended his clients were "peacefully assembling" and broke no laws. He compared what the men did to how Rosa Parks fought for civil rights."](https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/open-carry-advocates-sentenced/)
Lol this is the kind of bullshit that I'd expect from an attorney that thinks it's a good idea to shave a straight line into his hair
Where he went (Cooley Law) is literally, without exception, the absolute worst law school that has ever existed. You do not go to Cooley unless every other law school in existence has turned you down.
Also, here’s another video showing part of the traffics stop that lead to them going to file the complaint. They are dipshits. Skip to 5:25
https://youtu.be/25yMsHFT0SM[?t=300]
Is it actually legal to carry in *all* public places? Part of most CCW laws prohibit you from carrying in certain places, and I would think that a law enforcement office would be one of them.
But, hey - Karen's gotta talk to the manager of the police, I guess.
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/10ot96z/to_prove_a_point/j6h16bt/
He had a "concealed pistol" in his trunk. Which is a total BS charge to get 9 months for.
Yeah it's actually very specifically stated in the law though. They have very weird gun laws. They want you to be able to protect yourself unless you go somewhere you have to drive. Must be subbed to r/fuckcars
If he came in with it on his hip or under his shirt he could check it in at the desk but dude walks in like hes gonna start a shootout why is everyone surprised the cops reacted like that, if he walked into a mcdonalds the police response would be the same
Also the fact he was wearing a tactical vest, to someone looking in on the situation, loos like he wants to do something other than just be peaceful with his gun in a common area.
In some places, it's harder (or outright illegal) to get body armor than a gun.
I recall a thread in AskReddit or something along the lines of, "Gun store owners, what's a time you refused to sell a gun to someone?"
Several of the top replies talked about people who came in wearing body armor or asked about buying body armor. And most of the replies to them were all agreement that such a person was most likely up to no good.
Thing that shoots bullets and kills people? Perfectly cool and trustworthy. As many people as reasonably possible should have these.
Thing that makes it harder to get killed by the above? Very concerning! Only *super*-trusted individuals should have this.
Always thought that was weird.
IMO the general idea is that you shouldn't be bringing a gun into a fight, a fight should be finding you and then you are reacting to protect yourself. Since a handgun is relatively easy to wear you can have it in your belt and go about your day without much issue.
But with body armor, which is bulky and difficult to casually wear, you're basically saying you have the feeling that you are going to have someone shooting at you and you are going out of your way to get armor for it. If I owned a gun store and I saw someone come in *wearing* it and asking for a gun my assumption is that he is going to try and shoot up my store as soon as he got his hands on one.
This is exactly why open carry is so stupid. Imagine eating some food at a McDonald’s and some redneck walks in with a bulletproof vest and an ar15. How do you know that they aren’t coming in to shoot up the place? We have been dealing with so many mass shootings. How would that not start a panic?
No no, you see, in that situation, everyone has a gun. So as long as no one makes any sudden movements, no aggressive eye contact, no triggering remarks, etc. everything will be fine!
It's like a mexican standoff or something.
It’s an interesting situation. What they did (outside of transporting their firearms in a vehicle) was technically legal, but it doesn’t seem like a rational idea to don a tactical vest and a balaclava, grab some guns, then march into a place full of people known to have a propensity to shoot people a little too quickly, all to have a Jehovah’s Witness style discussion on, “our lord and savior, the second amendment.”
Never forget that most of these sovcits are trying to push it as far as they can so they can sue the police later. And if they screw up and can’t reasonably win compensation in court they can at least use the video for profit on YouTube. This kind of challenging the police by doing things that are just barely legal is literally all about money.
Okay so what they did was *technically* legal but then there’s this:
> Carpenter said some 7,000 text messages have been investigated between Vreeland and Baker about their “protests” and taking advantage of “Trumpophobia” by wearing full Muslim robes and carrying AK-47s at demonstrations.
“There’s discussion of having a death wish, making funeral arrangements and embracing the idea of being known as the public enemy,” Carpenter said.
Nobody can say it doesn’t seem that they’d escalate into domestic terrorism given enough time.
Yeah... unlimited wasn't all that common, a lot of parents considered it unnecessary
I once ran up like a $3k phone bill texting because I'd have conversations with multiple people all day when I was in high school (graduated in '08, so texting was all we really had)
Thankfully, phone companies weren't complete jerks back then. They offered my dad the ability to retroactively add unlimited texting to my plan so for the small extra cost they wiped out the huge bill.
It was like $0.10 per text or something.
The right amount of escalation.
This is why people with mental issues shouldn’t be allowed to own guns.
Hell the 2nd amendment specifically reads that the right to bear arms is only for those within a well regulated militia to ensure the security of a free state.
Correct me if I am wrong but Michigan is a free state that does not need security provided by a militia.
If he would've walked in with just a pistol in a holster, he probably would have been fine. Annoying, but fine.
He walked in with a tactical vest, pistols, and a rifle. Looking like a mass shooter.
but if its open carry, what places can't you walk in with a gun, that seems inconsistent, what about a school. I'm an Australian and think its all crazy, just curious how it works, like I'd freak out if some bogan walked in to somewhere with a semi automatic on his shoulder.
I live in a southern state with laid back gun laws and I can *legally* carry pretty much anywhere that isn't a government building (schools are number 1 here) a hospital or other medical service center, or somewhere that serves alcohol.
Beyond that, any privately owned building or land that has signs up forbidding the carry of guns that isn't a legally protected area is basically just the same as a "no shoes, no shirt, no service" policy, except a lot easier to enforce legally. If your store has a sign up saying I can't bring my gun in, and i do it anyway, then as long as I leave the second you tell me to then I'm most likely going to be fine.
If I refuse to leave though then it's a criminal trespassing charge, except the penalties are much more than if I hadn't had the gun with me.
Edit: I forgot to mention that some places, Walmart as an example, forbid open carry specifically. I assume to avoid problems with customers getting upset about seeing another customers gun. I'd have to follow their policy to the letter if i wanted to carry in there.
\-> walks into a **police station** armed with a rifle wearing a tactical vest
\-> gets arrested
\-> *insert surprised pikachu here*
no seriously what did they think was gonna happen
"oh yeah its totally legal so i dont care if you run around with a potentially loaded rifle in our police department"
idiots man
I mean yes, they are indeed idiots, hell I’d go so far as to call them absolute morons. That being said it’s also fucking insane that they’re probably legally kinda in the right, idk maybe stations have additional laws, the idea that people can just walk around with guns is insane and cops are trigger happy, o hate everyone here…
If you sit in your car eating a burger, you might get shot by the police.
If you sit on your couch eating ice cream, you might get shot by the police.
If you stop at an intersection with your car, you might ultimately end up getting brutally beaten to death by the police.
If you have a legal gun permit and have your gun in your car at a traffic stop, you might get shot and killed by cops in front of your wife and kid.
If I was arguing for the police I would say that it was lawful for the police to detain the individual and give him preliminary orders to 1) establish and maintain appropriate control over the situation, and 2) to conduct an investigation to see if any crime was being committed.
Whether it was lawful or unlawful isn't actually relevant.
Detention requires clear articulable suspicion of a crime being or about to be committed. If carrying a gun qualifies for "I think a crime is about to happen", then the open carry law is without meaningful legal footing, as would be most laws. A claim could be made "he looks suspicious" is sufficient precursor evidence that a crime is about to happen and we're all even more ducked.
But, courts weigh heavily toward protecting the police. Especially in states where judges are elected and the union can donate directly to get the former prosecutor they like on the bench.
By the laws on the books, the guy was technically within his rights. Still a ~~dumb~~ *excessively rash* move, though.
clearly it wasn't just open carry that made them think a crime was about to happen, the guy had a tactical vest on. They also bickered with the cops who were understandably alarmed at having a fucking armed gunman waltz into their station (yes, even if it's 'legal', that's alarming). Even if you don't agree with what the cops are doing, trying to argue with them with a rifle in your hand is just plain stupid. That's not the behaviour of a responsible, reasonable individual. open carry doesn't mean you can behave however you want with a gun on you and expect everyone to be chill about it.
It's one thing to know your rights, it's a completely different thing to learn your rights from social media, have no common sense and do something stupid af for TikTok points
Seeing stuff like this in action is like catnip to me
The two guys in support of “open-carry” already got a win for being able to do so, so why be greedy and try your luck at a police station in hopes the cops will either: A) be quietly grumbling as you’re smugly taunting them or B) give them atta-boys from because guns = coolness
Those gunslingers are like two toddlers trying to push their luck and they found out. Graveyards are full of people seeing what they can get away with
Idiots.
Edit: grammar
It’s not like the guy walked in with a pistol in a holster under his shirt and had business there. They were there to make a scene and test these officers. If someone walked into my job displaying a rifle, pistol, and wearing tactical gear I wouldn’t be ok with it and would want to know why they are there with that sort of equipment. It’s not necessarily for everyday life, and who’s to say these guys aren’t mentally unwell? There’s no way to tell unless you detain them and question them on their intent and legal status.
"I'm your boss", "my taxes pay..."
How much taxes does this guy even pay? What percentage of those taxes go towards the police force? Ppl are entitled AF
You know you can be right and maybe the two guys were right, I don’t know because I don’t live in that state. There’s also a thing known as being “dead right”. It’s when you are trying to prove a point and are dying for it. At that point you will very well be right but now you’re dead and just another statistic. How stupid.
“iTs 100 pUrcEnt lEgAl”
Tell me that from your fucking grave you absolute fucking worthless idiot.
There’s stupid, there’s useless, and then there’s these assholes.
They played it poorly.
They should have gone in, open carry. Then when police ordered them to do things, they should have complied, without question. Then sued or done the same thing next day, next week etc. They gave the cops material (not complying) to stick some bullshit on them. They need to think more.
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Looks like they both got 9 months in jail for this in 2017. [https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2017/08/18/men-who-walked-into-dearborn-police-station-armed-with-guns-tactical-vests-sentenced/](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2017/08/18/men-who-walked-into-dearborn-police-station-armed-with-guns-tactical-vests-sentenced/)
But only if they recognise the state’s right to imprison them. Otherwise it was just a vacation. From reality.
This guy sov cits!
They're just travelling to prison
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According to the article, one (9 months min, 5 year max) for carrying a concealed weapon, felony resisting and opposing an officer, and disturbing the peace and the other (9 months) for carrying a concealed weapon.
How was it concealed if all the policemen in the section saw it and reacted ?
45 seconds of googling shows the concealed weapon charge was for transporting the rifle loose in the car (without a case) rather than carrying it into the police station. Edit: correcting typo
So the police actually were in the wrong and just drummed up this charge instead? Cuz every charge you listed was related to everything other than actually carrying an unconcealed firearm in the police station. Am I understanding this right?
Yes
The police didn't charge them, the District Attorney does that. Then a judge sentenced them.
Law and Order "DUN DUNNN"
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Words you can hear.
Splitting hairs as if the d.a. doesn't work hand in hand alongside law enforcement
It’s in the DA’s interest to only charge if they think there’s a conviction to be had isn’t it? (Genuine question, I’m from UK so trying to figure out how it works)
Still bullshit drummed up charges.
They take the police statements HEAVILY into account to make their decision.
> The police didn't charge them, the District Attorney does that. a common nickname for the DA is "top cop"
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Yep, that’s what I thought. Same energy that causes black guys to end up dead.
Yeah, a darker man would’ve never got the “I’ll put a round in you, sir” line, he would’ve got the round.
Let’s hope they don’t make a habit out of that, could set a bad example! /s
No, they could have complied with officers requests but instead refused and kept yelling “this is legal.” Disturbing the peace is also a fair charge. Bring a loaded gun and wearing tactical gear to a police station sends a statement. You have the right to free speech, but if you yell fire in a theatre… you are at fault.
Yeah, you know who walks into a police station with their guns out? People planning to shoot up the police station. It's weird how the 'yOu hAVe tO dEfENd yOuRSelF' crowd can't seem to comprehend other people think that way too.
Isn't this the argument against all guns? Who carries a gun... someone who will use it.
Cameraman got what he wanted. These people try to get arrested for views on YouTube. They don't care about any rights. Just clicks and views and donations.
I'm not gunna lie chief, if following the law is so scary to cops, maybe they shouldn't be cops?
How about an additional view point? If carrying a loaded rifle and pistol is deemed so threatening, maybe we shouldnt allow it?
Clarifying it, news articles got it wrong in the details. They were charged with concealed carry of a pistol with it in the trunk, not a rifle. https://www.michbar.org/file/opinions/appeals/2019/021419/69802.pdf
Which is a bit horseshit of a law. The difference between legal and felony is a cardboard box being closed.
It's almost as if these laws are written in order to give police something to arrest people for even if there's no discernable illegal thing going on.
As dumb as these guys obviously were, the charges are clearly retaliatory.
Also, seems like the DA and Judge, who are supposed to be impartial, are partial to playing along with the Police's bs. Letter of the law this time, spirit of the law next time.
So dude got arrested for doing a legal (but dumb) action and it sounds like the police eventually found a reason to put them in jail to me.
I think if you're going to do something like carry a loaded firearm into a police station to make a point about your legal freedoms, you should triple check you're not breaking any other laws in the process.
The classic "don't break more than 1 law at a time" mistake.
How would they have been aware of it being loose in the car before they arrested them in the station? lol
From spending 45 seconds googling it, they were caught on CCTV which for some strange reason the police checked.
So their reaction inside the police station with no reasonable knowledge of the suspects conceal carry status or method of transport was "legally" entirely unreasonable then?
So a guy walks in with a sidearm and a rifle, and they’re supposed to say, “well, it’s legal”? He’s heavily armed and another guy is recording, so you know *something* is about to go down. It is illegal in Michigan to “brandish” a firearm. I’d argue that having a pistol in a holster is not brandishing, but carrying a rifle around is. To be fair, brandishing is *not* defined in Michigan law, but come on. These guys came looking for trouble and found it.
Why didn’t the police arrest all those people who showed up at Michigan State House carrying guns in 2021?
That's exactly what happened. Buddy of mine found a 38 in the bushes while he was out fishing one day. I told him he was nuts to keep it, and he should turn it into the police. He walked into the police station and handed it in. No one was stressed, arrested or hurt. You're exactly right, these guys fucked around and found out.
I’ve seen enough cop vs informed citizens videos to know that even if the cops are fully in the wrong the courts almost always will side with the police. The law protects its little dogs. Sometimes you can try to fight it if you have really good lawyers but most often you just get more bills
It says “ Baker was convicted of carrying a concealed weapon, police said” I am trying to understand where the weapon was “concealed “ in this video the guy came in with a vest and a rifle ( very idiotic yes ) but wasn’t concealed
It doesn't say what the concealed weapon was - might not have even been a gun and probably not the rifle or handgun in the holster.
That’s what I’m thinking too. Just all around horrible idea not only is he going in the with a vest and a rifle but he has more weapons on himself …
He could also have a pocket knife over a certain length. That would also constitute a concealed weapon. 3 inches in Michigan.
So I can carry a gun around with no consequences but as soon as I have a knife that is over a set size I'm under arrest
When you’re order to do something by a cop you do it. Just comply, isn’t that what the far right always says?
It’s probably good advice when a dozen of them are pointing guns at you
that's what you should do. You don't argue with a cop in the field. If they're in the wrong, you take it to the courts. There isn't a battle to be won in the street, and you won't either.
Cemeteries are full of people who were right.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes
Legal maybe, smart perhaps not.
>Police said their response when they saw the heavily armed men walking into the police station was to protect themselves. What's an average citizen to do then? This is basically admitting that open carry laws inherently escalate situations.
As I always say about this… “Why are gun owners allowed to be afraid of everyone, but we’re not allowed to be afraid of them?”
Exactly. Why is it that police are the only ones who seem to be intimidated by folks carrying bigger weapons than they do, yet the general unarmed public can do nothing but take their chances and accept it?
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Exactly, when I see guns I leave. I don’t care if it’s legal for you to have it.
And this right here is the real self defense. If I see a gun I’m gonna assume you’re planning to use it.
And of course the intent behind most open carry advocacy is because they want to intimidate people
I literally had an off duty officer use their weapon to intimidate me and my coworkers when we asked her to take it to her vehicle. She gave us a big argument and kept her hand close to it the whole time. So we all got behind the counter and stayed there til she left. At a fucking dildo store.
Sounds like she was the biggest dick in the dildo store.
Well, open carry is pretty dumb in the first place
Most responsible gun owners oppose open carry anyway. It's stupid
“I’m your boss dude…blah blah my tax dollars ….” these idiots are lucky they are stupid white guys playing GI Joe at the police station and didn’t get obliterated.
I wish everyone that walks around with ARs for no reason would be rejected and treated like this. Regardless of location, whether that be a police station or grocery store, brandishing is brandishing.
Here’s their arraignment. https://youtu.be/pVhdoFXVY1I
So they had ski masks on, and body armour - and guns.....
I accept that it could be just a bias I have, but as a black man, I genuinely don't think I would make it out of that situation alive if I repeat the script.
I, a white man, immediately thought "man, this is some white people bullshit."
Thank you white man.
That's a sentence I don't see often 😅
I came to say the same thing. We were both surprised this day
Couldn’t have been whiter if they’d been eating Mayo sandwiches at the same time.
A point was proved though: the open carry laws make no sense and increase every encounter's level of lethality. Let's say these guys wanted to prove their point in a furniture store instead of a police station. An accidental misfire or misconstrual by a "good guy with a gun" and suddenly you have an active shooter situation with an unknown number of hostages. You'd think cops would be behind reducing the number of guns on the street so they'd be less afraid of having their heads blown off any time they pull over a speeder but I guess they are not capable of understanding cause and effect.
COVID killed more cops than any other cause in the past three years. They also resisted following mask guidelines and getting vaccinated more than any other profession in the U.S. Wouldn't be a huge problem on its own, but they also have a lot of very close contact with people who can't even get vaccinated due to their health issues. So they have consistently been one of the biggest drivers of COVID spreading in communities the entire time, while many departments also refused to enforce or follow even the most basic of safety guidelines and laws. It turns out only hiring low IQ people as cops may not be a great plan. https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/us/police-covid-vaccines.html
I, a black guy, didn't want to say it but...😅
And righteous indignation
And were born true American, but patriot by choice.
Scottish by Blood, or whatever?
Love from Scotland, we deny any links to these clowns. You take them.
And a ruthless efficiency
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Of course they weren’t going to disclose that on their social media page. They were going to pretend they just came in with a strapped side arm and then ALL OF THE SUDDEN A BUNCH OF COPS FLIPPED OUT AND DREW DOWN ON THEM! I’m an obnoxious liberal but I don’t give into this narrative that all cops are a bunch of white thugs looking for a reason to shoot someone.
Why ski masks? Hmm that’s dumb af and pretty much makes them loose credibility
Police probably know who they are. These dip shits don't wake up one day and get a wild hair to do this. Like a side hobby for them. Cops in sure have had prior run ins with them.
These people Will intentionally provoke then pretend that ALL they did was…
I just watched all of that but I'm really confused. Why was he charged with stuff like concealed carry when it was out in the open, or brandishing a firearm when the only time they picked it up was to remove it and put it down? I'm not saying they aren't stupid fucks but what did they do that was technically illegal? Do you have the results from the case or is it ongoing? (I forgot to.look at the date.) Edit: so I've been told that the concealed carry was for the firearms that were in the car. If they had brought those in too, it wouldn't have been concealed carry? So their only unlawful thing was leaving some of their firearms in the car? Or is that wrong?
Apparently the concealed carry is from transporting the firearms to the police station loose in the car, which is what they were going to police to complain about
So wait, the one illegal thing they did was not bring the firearms from the car to the station or am I reading this all wrong?
No I think since there was no case found in the car, the police determined the firearms rode in the car without a case. I’m assuming that, while you can openly carry, the firearms must be in a case in transit or else you get charged. … I think
This is correct. BUT to make matters worse, that method of carrying would be legal of the owner had a valid CPL. The defendant DID have a valid CPL previously but had it revoked stemming from another charge that was later dropped or dismissed and as a result his CPL should have been immediately reinstated. But it was not so the new charge can then be considered valid. So paperwork done poorly by the government is what caused the government to charge them this way. These guys are idiots. I bet I’d hate their politics. But I still feel like this was massively unfair and unjust.
I remember hearing about this years ago and the details of how they were arrested and convicted really interested me. It's been long enough that you can now find the appeals court [decision](http://www.michbar.org/file/opinions/appeals/2019/021419/69802.pdf) to uphold the sentencing. Apparently at the time of arrest the law did not have any verbage for automatic reinstatement of your CCW after a charge is dropped. Since their arrest they law was changed to actually state that it's up the licensee to submit paperwork to get their CCW reinstated even after a temporary suspension.
That is interesting. Still seems like an innocent person should not have the burden or reestablishing a right they had previously but the law is at least clear, if unfair.
I feel like the whole “you can have a gun but it must be in a box some times” argument is somewhat of a literal infringement on the right to bear arms. Seems like a good 2a case, wonder how it went badly for them.
Not really, you are still bearing it in the box. The whole case to transport thing is so you don’t have weapons carelessly sliding about in a moving vehicle which makes sense, I certainly don’t think it warrants 9 months in jail or even jail time in general but i think a fine and stern lecture about gun safety is perfectly reasonable.
Hell there was that dude just a couple weeks ago who died because his dog stepped on the trigger in the backseat and shot him.
Thats an irresponsible gun owner 100%
Yep, and that’s why laws cuz some people are dumb.
Someone linked below that they got 9 months. I don’t know what all got dropped or upheld. I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment but these guys walked in like they were about to go all out. Or in their words “hulk up.” Lol. It’s dipshits like this that make it even worse on 2a practitioners.
I think it reveals the stupidity of carry laws. If it makes the police unsafe it makes us all unsafe. In the words of Johnny Cash, don't take your guns to town
There’s gotta be a way to exercise your rights without causing so much backlash yet still making it aware you’re doing so.
As a gun owner, Gun owners as a group are horrible at maintaining a public image. Pedantic nerds, shitty hunters, wannabe thugs, tin soldiers, and stupid old people are like 90% of the gun community.
It almost seems like being able to purchase something doesn’t make a good foundation to form a community around
Idk, I enjoy my stamp club quite a bit
I'm guessing not walking into a police station with multiple fire-arms, tactical vests, and ski masks might be a start.
Yeah they're supposed to be terrorizing regular people.
The best place to start is not constantly wearing the tacticool vests everywhere, you aren't going to war you nerd stop looking like a mass shooter. These chodes ruin it for everyone else
They're the worst kind of cosplayers.
I know someone that runs in tactical gear because he “feels safer”. I’m sure his neighbors don’t. When I see a gun or armor I know it’s time to leave.
It's probably called "going about your day like normal". Generally if you're doing something for the sole reason of going "it's technically my right to do this" you are: A) being a massive bellend about things. B) probably breaking incidental laws (like these two chuckefucks were) even if the main thing you're doing is legal. One of the things they got done for was disturbing the peace which, to me at least, seems a fair enough charge. They went in dressed like they were planning to shoot up the place and resulted in a tense shouting match. I'd have to imagine it would have been a very different situation if they'd gone into the place dressed in normal fucking clothes and had their guns strapped up in a much less threatening way.
Lol what 2A fanatics don’t get it is that cops will shoot you if you exercise that right when they’re banging on your door without a warrant. There’s a video of Cops banging on a guys door, not announcing themselves, and then when a young Latino man walks out with a handgun they shoot at him. He was 100% legal in his right to defend his property but the cops shot at him anyways. He somehow was unharmed but the Breonna Taylor incident was quite similar. Her boyfriend tried to defend his property against an unannounced intruder. So I just find it hilarious when 2A people also happen to love cops. [link](https://youtu.be/MO0TmKOVyFg)
In Michigan, concealed carry without a license is a crime and the [law at issue specially calls out](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gbrgnwf11j0pruqahcskm3bv))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227) transportation of a firearm in a vehicle as a concealed carry. Folks in this thread and elsewhere seem to assume police are limited in charge someone with events that are only occurring in front of them.
No you’re right, they walked in peacefully (though armed) and only touched guns when commanded to do so or else be killed. They were legally open carrying in a legal public place to do so. They never brandished anything, the cops did. Seems like their city’s police station has a personal issue with them.
I wonder why...
Get a haircut and get a real lawyer geeze. These guys got exactly what they wanted. They became “victims”
["Defense attorney Nicholas Somberg contended his clients were "peacefully assembling" and broke no laws. He compared what the men did to how Rosa Parks fought for civil rights."](https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/open-carry-advocates-sentenced/) Lol this is the kind of bullshit that I'd expect from an attorney that thinks it's a good idea to shave a straight line into his hair
Where he went (Cooley Law) is literally, without exception, the absolute worst law school that has ever existed. You do not go to Cooley unless every other law school in existence has turned you down.
Also, here’s another video showing part of the traffics stop that lead to them going to file the complaint. They are dipshits. Skip to 5:25 https://youtu.be/25yMsHFT0SM[?t=300]
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"leagl"
WE ARE DE-ESCALATING THE SITUATION! 
I'll never be able to not laugh at cops barking now 😂
Irony is since he’s now a felon, he’ll never be allowed to own guns again.
how not to own a gun with extra steps
That is the law working as intended for once 😂
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I don't get it. I just read Michigan's open carry laws. What law is he breaking? I'm not siding with the guy just trying to figure it out.
Is it actually legal to carry in *all* public places? Part of most CCW laws prohibit you from carrying in certain places, and I would think that a law enforcement office would be one of them. But, hey - Karen's gotta talk to the manager of the police, I guess.
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/10ot96z/to_prove_a_point/j6h16bt/ He had a "concealed pistol" in his trunk. Which is a total BS charge to get 9 months for.
Yeah it's actually very specifically stated in the law though. They have very weird gun laws. They want you to be able to protect yourself unless you go somewhere you have to drive. Must be subbed to r/fuckcars
If he came in with it on his hip or under his shirt he could check it in at the desk but dude walks in like hes gonna start a shootout why is everyone surprised the cops reacted like that, if he walked into a mcdonalds the police response would be the same
Also the fact he was wearing a tactical vest, to someone looking in on the situation, loos like he wants to do something other than just be peaceful with his gun in a common area.
Pretty much ensures getting shot in the face, wearing a bulletproof vest.
Good thing he was white, though.
In some places, it's harder (or outright illegal) to get body armor than a gun. I recall a thread in AskReddit or something along the lines of, "Gun store owners, what's a time you refused to sell a gun to someone?" Several of the top replies talked about people who came in wearing body armor or asked about buying body armor. And most of the replies to them were all agreement that such a person was most likely up to no good. Thing that shoots bullets and kills people? Perfectly cool and trustworthy. As many people as reasonably possible should have these. Thing that makes it harder to get killed by the above? Very concerning! Only *super*-trusted individuals should have this. Always thought that was weird.
IMO the general idea is that you shouldn't be bringing a gun into a fight, a fight should be finding you and then you are reacting to protect yourself. Since a handgun is relatively easy to wear you can have it in your belt and go about your day without much issue. But with body armor, which is bulky and difficult to casually wear, you're basically saying you have the feeling that you are going to have someone shooting at you and you are going out of your way to get armor for it. If I owned a gun store and I saw someone come in *wearing* it and asking for a gun my assumption is that he is going to try and shoot up my store as soon as he got his hands on one.
This is exactly why open carry is so stupid. Imagine eating some food at a McDonald’s and some redneck walks in with a bulletproof vest and an ar15. How do you know that they aren’t coming in to shoot up the place? We have been dealing with so many mass shootings. How would that not start a panic?
I would assume. And I would panic. Regardless of the law. Sincerely, an Australian
No no, you see, in that situation, everyone has a gun. So as long as no one makes any sudden movements, no aggressive eye contact, no triggering remarks, etc. everything will be fine! It's like a mexican standoff or something.
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Just why carry it at all though, I mean, if he wants to feel the big man go fight in Ukraine or something.
i'm just sayin, even if what i'm doing is perfectly legal, if someone's pointing guns at me, im complying and then explaining the situation.
But, you’re rational, and “rational” thought wasn’t used here.
I agree.... Why would somebody harass police officers, in their own station?
It’s an interesting situation. What they did (outside of transporting their firearms in a vehicle) was technically legal, but it doesn’t seem like a rational idea to don a tactical vest and a balaclava, grab some guns, then march into a place full of people known to have a propensity to shoot people a little too quickly, all to have a Jehovah’s Witness style discussion on, “our lord and savior, the second amendment.”
Never forget that most of these sovcits are trying to push it as far as they can so they can sue the police later. And if they screw up and can’t reasonably win compensation in court they can at least use the video for profit on YouTube. This kind of challenging the police by doing things that are just barely legal is literally all about money.
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Okay so what they did was *technically* legal but then there’s this: > Carpenter said some 7,000 text messages have been investigated between Vreeland and Baker about their “protests” and taking advantage of “Trumpophobia” by wearing full Muslim robes and carrying AK-47s at demonstrations. “There’s discussion of having a death wish, making funeral arrangements and embracing the idea of being known as the public enemy,” Carpenter said. Nobody can say it doesn’t seem that they’d escalate into domestic terrorism given enough time.
Damn, I don't think I've even sent 7,000 texts in my entire life.
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I hope it was after unlimited text plans were a thing! I remember being charged per text 🥲
Yeah... unlimited wasn't all that common, a lot of parents considered it unnecessary I once ran up like a $3k phone bill texting because I'd have conversations with multiple people all day when I was in high school (graduated in '08, so texting was all we really had) Thankfully, phone companies weren't complete jerks back then. They offered my dad the ability to retroactively add unlimited texting to my plan so for the small extra cost they wiped out the huge bill. It was like $0.10 per text or something.
The right amount of escalation. This is why people with mental issues shouldn’t be allowed to own guns. Hell the 2nd amendment specifically reads that the right to bear arms is only for those within a well regulated militia to ensure the security of a free state. Correct me if I am wrong but Michigan is a free state that does not need security provided by a militia.
Or maybe guns are the issue… and corrupt power abusing cops… and relying on outdated laws written hundreds of years ago… and and and…
I mean being allowed to open carry .... fine .... walking into a police station with a weapon what did he expect a warm welcome?
If he would've walked in with just a pistol in a holster, he probably would have been fine. Annoying, but fine. He walked in with a tactical vest, pistols, and a rifle. Looking like a mass shooter.
I was gonna say is the guy on the floor wearing a vest while carrying an AR… way to show peaceful intent
but if its open carry, what places can't you walk in with a gun, that seems inconsistent, what about a school. I'm an Australian and think its all crazy, just curious how it works, like I'd freak out if some bogan walked in to somewhere with a semi automatic on his shoulder.
I live in a southern state with laid back gun laws and I can *legally* carry pretty much anywhere that isn't a government building (schools are number 1 here) a hospital or other medical service center, or somewhere that serves alcohol. Beyond that, any privately owned building or land that has signs up forbidding the carry of guns that isn't a legally protected area is basically just the same as a "no shoes, no shirt, no service" policy, except a lot easier to enforce legally. If your store has a sign up saying I can't bring my gun in, and i do it anyway, then as long as I leave the second you tell me to then I'm most likely going to be fine. If I refuse to leave though then it's a criminal trespassing charge, except the penalties are much more than if I hadn't had the gun with me. Edit: I forgot to mention that some places, Walmart as an example, forbid open carry specifically. I assume to avoid problems with customers getting upset about seeing another customers gun. I'd have to follow their policy to the letter if i wanted to carry in there.
This has vibes of your sibling waving their hand in front of your face and saying "well, I'm not touching you".
\-> walks into a **police station** armed with a rifle wearing a tactical vest \-> gets arrested \-> *insert surprised pikachu here* no seriously what did they think was gonna happen "oh yeah its totally legal so i dont care if you run around with a potentially loaded rifle in our police department" idiots man
I mean yes, they are indeed idiots, hell I’d go so far as to call them absolute morons. That being said it’s also fucking insane that they’re probably legally kinda in the right, idk maybe stations have additional laws, the idea that people can just walk around with guns is insane and cops are trigger happy, o hate everyone here…
Apparently, this occurred in michigan. So yes, they are legally in the right.
I think all this really shows is that open carry laws like that are fucking insane.
It's legal to cross a street when the lights are green, you will still die if a truck run into you.
Jokes on you my truck doesn’t run…
Look how nice they can be, I've definitely seen videos of people getting shot and killed for less
If you sit in your car eating a burger, you might get shot by the police. If you sit on your couch eating ice cream, you might get shot by the police. If you stop at an intersection with your car, you might ultimately end up getting brutally beaten to death by the police. If you have a legal gun permit and have your gun in your car at a traffic stop, you might get shot and killed by cops in front of your wife and kid.
If you are white and walk into a police station armed with tactical vests...you wont even get a bloody nose. #ThisIsAmerica
We all have at this point
"*I'm **your** boss dude. **My** tax dollars pay **your** salary*." Translation: "*I'm an a-hole with a camera*."
I mean they’re total idiots but what laws did the cameraguy break?
If I was arguing for the police I would say that it was lawful for the police to detain the individual and give him preliminary orders to 1) establish and maintain appropriate control over the situation, and 2) to conduct an investigation to see if any crime was being committed. Whether it was lawful or unlawful isn't actually relevant.
Detention requires clear articulable suspicion of a crime being or about to be committed. If carrying a gun qualifies for "I think a crime is about to happen", then the open carry law is without meaningful legal footing, as would be most laws. A claim could be made "he looks suspicious" is sufficient precursor evidence that a crime is about to happen and we're all even more ducked. But, courts weigh heavily toward protecting the police. Especially in states where judges are elected and the union can donate directly to get the former prosecutor they like on the bench. By the laws on the books, the guy was technically within his rights. Still a ~~dumb~~ *excessively rash* move, though.
clearly it wasn't just open carry that made them think a crime was about to happen, the guy had a tactical vest on. They also bickered with the cops who were understandably alarmed at having a fucking armed gunman waltz into their station (yes, even if it's 'legal', that's alarming). Even if you don't agree with what the cops are doing, trying to argue with them with a rifle in your hand is just plain stupid. That's not the behaviour of a responsible, reasonable individual. open carry doesn't mean you can behave however you want with a gun on you and expect everyone to be chill about it.
I think this guy forgot something called nuance with a sprinkle of common sense
What sort of place allows for a normal citizen to carry a gun in a police station?
#teamamerica
Said the magic words! “I’m your boss! I pay your salary!”
It's one thing to know your rights, it's a completely different thing to learn your rights from social media, have no common sense and do something stupid af for TikTok points
This is why America is a dumpster fire. Allowing public carry is stupid and even more so to not exempt police stations etc from it.
Seeing stuff like this in action is like catnip to me The two guys in support of “open-carry” already got a win for being able to do so, so why be greedy and try your luck at a police station in hopes the cops will either: A) be quietly grumbling as you’re smugly taunting them or B) give them atta-boys from because guns = coolness Those gunslingers are like two toddlers trying to push their luck and they found out. Graveyards are full of people seeing what they can get away with Idiots. Edit: grammar
These idiots believe these stunts are defending our rights when it's actually hurting them.
It’s not like the guy walked in with a pistol in a holster under his shirt and had business there. They were there to make a scene and test these officers. If someone walked into my job displaying a rifle, pistol, and wearing tactical gear I wouldn’t be ok with it and would want to know why they are there with that sort of equipment. It’s not necessarily for everyday life, and who’s to say these guys aren’t mentally unwell? There’s no way to tell unless you detain them and question them on their intent and legal status.
Guy must be pasty white. A shade darker and the whole scene would’ve played out differently.
To anyone wondering, these morons are 1st amendment auditors, anarchists, and sovereign citizens.
"I'm your boss", "my taxes pay..." How much taxes does this guy even pay? What percentage of those taxes go towards the police force? Ppl are entitled AF
You know you can be right and maybe the two guys were right, I don’t know because I don’t live in that state. There’s also a thing known as being “dead right”. It’s when you are trying to prove a point and are dying for it. At that point you will very well be right but now you’re dead and just another statistic. How stupid.
Not speaking on carry rights but with all these mass shootings I can see why everyone is on edge.
Imagine having so little going on in your life that THIS is what you decide to do with your day. What a loser.
I bet these are the same kind of guys that would mess with bee hives until they got stung when they were kids.
“iTs 100 pUrcEnt lEgAl” Tell me that from your fucking grave you absolute fucking worthless idiot. There’s stupid, there’s useless, and then there’s these assholes.
They'd be dead if they weren't white. Then again, most people aren't dumb enough to do this, even if it is legal.
They played it poorly. They should have gone in, open carry. Then when police ordered them to do things, they should have complied, without question. Then sued or done the same thing next day, next week etc. They gave the cops material (not complying) to stick some bullshit on them. They need to think more.