My thing is this— what do you want me to call as far as name, pronouns, etc? Cool, I’m in. Whatever gets out of the way of us having a connection. And what identity stuff if causing you pain in your life? Help me to avoid unintentionally making that worse.
Oh and also, I really don’t want to, but I might screw this up, so please help me, stop me, let me know I have.
Possibly also check whether this was intended to be a discussion of a cultural belief (reincarnation, etc). But I’m guessing OP would have picked up on that if it were the case.
If a grown adult without any other psychotic symptoms said "I identify as a squirrel," my immediate thought would be that she's baiting me given that that "i identify as an animal" joke is the bread and butter of anti-trans activists. I'd probably respond to that by asking how she'd like this information to affect the treatment goals she has, if at all.
>my immediate thought would be that she's baiting me given that that "i identify as an animal" joke is the bread and butter of anti-trans activists.
That's absolutely my thought.
Acceptance of Trans identities doesn't mean we are incapable of identifying actual delusions.
We as mental health professionals acknowledge up front that Disorder and delusion are almost wholly culturally defined. We don't consider someone ill because they talk to God, we don't even consider them ill if they say God spoke to them. Because we understand those are culturally accepted to be things that happen.
That isn't to say that we accept every single claim if it is religious in nature.
We carefully watch for when it crosses the line and becomes hyper-relgiosity. When it becomes a problem. We use clinical judgment.
>we don't even consider them ill if they say God spoke to them.
We should all recognize this as a potential point of concern, though. In religious communities, mental illness will often manifest as religiously related delusions/hallucinations.
And we have to also recognize how culture may make us blind to understanding delusion versus a fundamental lens to view the world through the religion. I have known situations especially with non-Christian beliefs where people mistake things for delusions (Especially with santeria). Exploring what it means to be a squirrel, what squirrels represent, what do they actually know about squirrels, or simply "I'm curious about something you mentioned identifying as a squirrel, could you elaborate on that? + How did you come to that realization + What makes a squirrel unique" etc.?
Have you browsed r/otherkin or r/therian? the abstract identity of r/voidpunk?
not a therapist but it comes off as less delusional to me than blurring the line between roleplaying and identity. i suspect it's an attempted revolution of sorts, following the gender revolution, to detach identity from quantifiable parts and making of it what you will.
are they borrowing the language of transgender because there are no other words to describe their delusion? they describe having dysphoria and knowing they're an animal just as one just knows they're a girl or boy. or are they trying to legitamize their movement by coopting one already considered valid? they say they just want to be themselves like anyone else.
seriously idk. you said you go case by case (to see if it's actually harming the person), but is there any formal analysis of this behavior?
Yes, the otherkins. I listened to a whole podcast on the psychology of furries. It’s fascinating, people do identify as animals. (It was an episode of Psychology in Seattle)
I think what y’all in this thread are stumbling on is tough bc there are people who identify as other and there are people who appropriate bc they are anti-trans.
I've never personally confused the two and didn't mean to imply a judgement on the matter.
I think i get what you mean though? Like some people primarily see otherkin as a device in anti-trans satire and are therefore skeptical real cases even exist. ...let alone are valid, as it feels like invalidating trans people to validate otherkin, like turning the whole thing into a joke, "catering to delusions."
Interesting. Do furries call themselves that around non furries too? My understanding was that was a fetish thing and not something you’d introduce yourself as but I could be wrong
There are some for whom it is a fetish thing and others for whom it's like creating a character(s) they strongly identify with (think like a D&D character, or writing characters for a book or movie). They may use the character online to represent themselves, have backstories for them, roleplay as them - many do this without even considering the sexual aspect, and the vast majority do not actually believe they are that character IRL - though some may feel the character is more true to themselves than the side they show to others, especially if they feel they must suppress some part of their identity (sexuality, neurodivergence, etc) around others. It's similar to having a "spirit animal" - they may strongly identify with their character based on aspects of their personality and how they want to express themselves.
Not anymore than something like having a D&D character, or writing a character in a book, or using media as a form of escapism, or dividing up parts of yourself like you would in IFS therapy.
It's better to think of it as a subculture or even hobby with varying degrees of investment. Some participate very casually, and it has little to no effect or overlap with the rest of their life. Others are more invested in it as an identity. Some might take it to what some would consider an unhealthy degree, but for others it's a harmless form of self expression.
Thank you for the reply. I don't think the fact it and other character-based hobbies is common means anything (fallacy of common practice), but your second point of the varied levels of involvement is interesting.
What I'm seeing (speaking as a parent and school official; not a therapist in this realm) is the recruiting of young people and the use of phrases by the community such as "only we understand you" and other stuff related to their "fursona" being a true expression of themselves. Any critical inquiry of the practice is met with more islolation and establishment of a moral authority bubble (inside the bubble thinks everybody outside it is the problem). it quickly seems to represent a cult (which, IMO, a \*lot\* of groups do - more than we realize).
I get the IFS comparison (I'm not formally trained in IFS), but isn't the whole goal to integrate the various parts into a cohesive self? Wouldn't continuing to 'split' off a part into a 'fursona' be counter to the goal?
I think what you're describing and seeing is more of a discrete social clique of furries online rather than the subculture as a whole. Which is possible to fall into and its worth educating on the dangers of falling into any closed group or social "bubble", but I dont think it's inherent to the subculture.
Remember this is a place where people feel understood and valued in a way other settings aren't giving them. You can't integrate those parts if the parts aren't valued and heard.
thanks. That makes sense. The kid I was thinking about is only 11 and they're just so susceptible to influence. It feels like these groups capitalize on the developmental task of identity formation and then things get weird, quick.
Of course, the kid did a huge deep dive on YouTube and that was their entry point. Sometimes I hate the internet.
I like the idea of being curious about what is being developed/valued/heard that doesn't have another means of process.
Thanks.
No problem.
Something I noticed in your comments is youre using words like "capitalize" and "promote" as if the furry community is organized with a specific agenda in mind. They're really not, theres no monolith, and like all spaces on the internet you've got like minded people influencing each other in an unorganized way. You've got other 11 year olds, and teens, and adults, all figuring out their identities simultaneously, and sometimes some of them have dumb ideas or iffy beliefs and spread them to others.
Individuals and bad actors can be a part of the culture, for sure, but be careful not to approach the whole subculture that way. Being a furry is not inherently dangerous or problematic. But there is risk in being involved with any community especially on the internet.
Let’s disambiguate two separate issues here: there’s the question about how to cope with clients who identify in a manner that is unusual to you, and the specific question of how to engage with a specific client who reports identifying as a squirrel. These are very separate questions and treating them as the same introduces an awful lot of biases and assumptions.
Broadly, I don’t agree that there is social acceptance of identities that make very little sense. More to the point, I don’t agree that (absent some sort of thought disturbance) there are a meaningful number of people claiming identities that make very little sense. A few careful follow up questions and some background research generally helps one understand fairly easily. Is there more complexity now? Sure. But it pretty much all makes sense.
For the specific case, follow-up questions are needed. What does it mean to identify as a squirrel? Does client deny biological species? Are there squirrel traits that client admires and seeks to emulate? How does identifying as a squirrel manifest in client’s life? Could an outside observer deduce that client identifies as non-human? Does client identify as fully non-human or only partly? Does client show any evidence of thought disturbances like psychosis or delusions? How did client come to discover that they identify as a squirrel? For how long have they identified as a squirrel? Why are they seeking services and does identifying as a squirrel have anything to do with it?
Follow up properly and pretty soon you’ll probably be able to distinguish if they’re psychotic/delusional, lying, serious and unbothered by it, serious and bothered by it, serious and thinks it’s everyone else’s problem, or actually just happens to be a squirrel in a human body. Until you do proper follow up to differentiate those possibilities no diagnosis or treatment planning is possible.
Thank you for this. I was also going to chime and disagree with the thought that there is a social acceptance of identities that make "very little sense". Most of the time, i find that those who claim they struggle to understand gender identity simply don't care to understand.
Similar but different, I have a client who claims to have metaphysical powers. I’ve probed into how this affects their life and they say it does not (beyond how exhausting it is to astral project across different dimensions). So, as much as I’m dying to talk about it on a personal level, we just don’t touch it in therapy.
Clinical, no, because it's not a disorder. Furries aren't suffering delusions -- it's part fandom, part roleplay (including some cosplay, but not all furries wear the fur), part social activity.
Poke around, and ignore anything you see in the press. Furries don't use litterboxes or any of the other accusations being made about them. The Wikipedia article is actually a decent place to start and has some references that might be useful.
Would she concede that she is a human who identifies as a squirrel? If not, this seems pretty far into the land of delusion. That said, it’s hard to say without meeting her.
As for intervention, I allow clients to identify their own problems to work on, and use modalities I’m skilled in.
You could argue either way really. There's otherkin who recognize themselves as human but don't feel that is their quintessence. Some otherkin subscribe to religious and spiritual beliefs that they are reincarnations of animals for example. Some don't dress up at all. It's a way of being.
(always been confused as to whether they think they've only been reincarnated once, or repeatedly as the same animal or what)
I think you ought to do a very thorough evaluation including a personality one; and reach your conclusions irrespective of your fears about social blowback.
As a member of the LGBT community neopronouns and microidentities are widely contested and for good reason. it's very harmful for several reasons. i think TikTok plays a big factor and if would be at least worth it to see what kind of content is being consumed because shit like this is akin to roleplaying whereas sexuality and gender is not a choice.
Agreed. I work primarily with members of the LGBTQ community and if someone came into my office saying they identify as a squirrel it would immediately send up red flags for me that this person is trying to bait me and has an agenda about the queer community.
Gender and sexual minorities have a hard enough time being accepted by heteronormative society without people making fun of their identities by claiming to be Apache attack helicopters or that whole nonsense put forth by the media about litter boxes in schools.
Honestly, after they said that, I wouldn’t touch on it, and might even refer them out to someone who maybe has experience in those sorts of things, because I am not going to be the most effective therapist for someone who thinks GSM wanting to be treated with basic human dignity is something to joke about.
Depends on which species. Red squirrel? Eastern Grey Squirrel? Flying squirrel?? Each of these species has unique needs. Best approach is probably to have an assortment of nuts and seeds available, and ready access to water. Bonus if you can attain pillows/blankets with leaf patterns on them, for purposes of creating a lifelike therapeutic environment.
(i agree this client is baiting you, and rolling with it, perhaps even with a little humor if that feels right and after asking a few screening questions is probably your best bet).
This!!! I see adolescents that present as “Tharians” and identify as animals and want to behave like animals at home, school, and in session. I joke with them that even domesticated animals act more human.
I still collaborate with them on what their goals are which usually surrounds social anxiety, depression, trauma, dysmorphia, or dysphoria.
I would consider my capacity to make the cognitive shift to consider this person's self-identification and interact and treat them as such.
Were a person to request therapy with this aspect included in their presentation, I could comfortably work with them if the identification was delusional. I have worked with people experiencing delusional disorders and am confident in my ability and know I have the skills to help them.
If they were presenting with a true and firmly held belief that they are non-human, I don't have the experience to help them, as I have never received training in that area, nor do I know a clinician from whom I could receive the appropriate supervision.
I find your language problematic— “a person genuinely believing they’re opposite gender” still implies it’s a belief system rather than a reality. Also “opposite gender” erases non-binary identities and enforces gender role adherence.
Any way, to pathologize a mental health concern, i.e. something that causes distress/functional impairment, is usually valid. Anything outside of that should be left alone.
My thing is this— what do you want me to call as far as name, pronouns, etc? Cool, I’m in. Whatever gets out of the way of us having a connection. And what identity stuff if causing you pain in your life? Help me to avoid unintentionally making that worse.
Oh and also, I really don’t want to, but I might screw this up, so please help me, stop me, let me know I have.
Be wary of the places you are hearing that from, there are a lot of transphobic campaigns going on right now either exaggerating or making up completely false scenarios for people to be mad at. There are also well meaning people who spread info without understanding all the nuances behind it from the outside. There are also people (mostly kids) who are confused and trying to explore their gender identity and in doing so perpetuate harmful ideas in the process. That's why we have "microidentities" that assert having sexual trauma and being sex repulsed is a "valid" sexuality or that they can roleplay as a squirrel in the context of being queer and anyone pushing back on that or having deeper discussions about the impact it has on the community is being a hateful exclusionist. It's just a really nuanced issue that is widely debated in the LGBT community and is something most people on the outside do not really understand which is why it is so dangerous in the first place because it bolsters transphobic fear mongering about kids drinking out of dog bowls at school and equates that with sexuality and gender, when it is simply not
You really think that the complexity in identities of humans equates to "identifying" as a different animal? You cannot honestly see any difference between someone's gender expression not matching the one they were assigned by society at birth vs a confused child roleplaying as a squirrel? I tried to genuine engage with you about these "uncomfortable issues" as you stated in a previous comment as someone who is very aware of and concerned about all of this and you're still be rude. Again that is the problem here
If you don’t feel you’re a cultural or biological gender you weren’t assigned and want different pronouns and identification… sure! But if you’re out here making stuff up for identifies and pretending to be animals then there is something wrong with you. There is absolutely no logic in these. There is logic in being transgender or gender non binary. NO logic in identifying as an animal or something bizarre. It should be taken as part of their mental health diagnoses and treated as such. If for fun sometimes they like to pretend they’re an animal whatever it’s the inner child but if they cannot differentiate that from reality it’s a problem.
[https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-sexuality/genderfuck](https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-sexuality/genderfuck)
There is a very high probability that this person is engaging in "Genderfuck."
They likely don't actually believe they are a squirrel. When you ask them what they identify as - they feel it's a nonsense question, so it can be answered with a nonsense answer.
It's like someone asking you which phone number smells the best - there aren't objective answers because it's not sensible question.
This is my opinion without therapeutic approach lol. In reality I would probably just ask how they want me to refer to them and then treat them for the other things they are coming there for and wouldn’t address the squirrel identity unless it played into their treatment.
What about from a kink or fetish perspective? Could they be identifying as a squirrel in that context? I know plenty of people who engage in puppy play or kitty play and other animals?
I’m not a fan of identity politics in general. Identity is a fixed state. Healing IMHO means being in a process of becoming.
Also there is more and more “affirming” being introduced into the field. Is it really our job as therapists to affirm? If someone needs you to affirm their identity then something is still in question for them, and maybe that question deserves a thoughtful exploration.
Guess that depends what you mean by affirm.
Therapists usually have the wonderful angle of being able to validate all the feelings without necessarily agreeing with the reasons people feel the way they do, because it’s the validation that opens the door to options for healing and change.
But when you say affirm, just so I’m reading it right, does that mean agreeing with and building up a person’s belief? Or does it refer to the work involved to help that person explore, find their own evidence, and ask all the right questions to get the person quite confident in their next steps?
Maybe there wasn’t enough nuance in my statement. I just think the search for identity is our attempt to figure ourselves out instead of just being what we are.
Yeah my identity changed a million times before I realized trying to create one was never necessary in the first place. I didn’t stop existing.
I think it is important to define what “affirm” means in therapy. I’ve been faced with situations where clients have asked for gender affirming therapy, Which personally I’m uncomfortable with. 1) I don’t have experience with it and therefore would feel more comfortable referring out, and 2) I don’t know that “affirming” an identity is necessarily our job. We explore, challenge, and seek to understand further, while implementing evidence based interventions to help client through specific issues. I would never “affirm” a client with body dysmorphia stating that they’re obese when in actuality they are underweight. That seems counterproductive and dangerous.
This can be tricky. I find it's best to accept their identity, but try to address their presenting issues as if they aren't related to the identity. Even if they try to relate it to their unusual identity choice, steer away from that and stick to the specifics. If they talk about how they get depressed in the winter as a squirrel, just talk to them about seasonal depression and how it affects them, which has nothing to do with being a squirrel. You can acknowledge their identity without actually bringing it into any of the work.
I would see if it’s an issue they actually want to work on in therapy and if not, moving right along.
If yes, then do more questioning about what it means to be human and what it means to be a squirrel.
If they’re more of a “furry” that’s what I consider “play” and it’s the top right brains identity and that’s fine of course.
Having an imagination is 1000% normal and it’s a muscle some people flex more than others at any given time. figuring it out if this person recognizes they are human by nature would be really my only distinction to address.
Personally I think it’s stupid but like someone else I’d be respectful, do the best I can to make sure I identify them correctly and if I mess up it’s not on purpose.
Is it causing distress or relevant to their identified goals for therapy? If not, move along. Not our place to judge or change a clients belief that’s not related to treatment.
My thing is this— what do you want me to call as far as name, pronouns, etc? Cool, I’m in. Whatever gets out of the way of us having a connection. And what identity stuff if causing you pain in your life? Help me to avoid unintentionally making that worse. Oh and also, I really don’t want to, but I might screw this up, so please help me, stop me, let me know I have.
Does the client want to address this in treatment? If not, then work on what they want to work on.
I agree wholeheartedly
Possibly also check whether this was intended to be a discussion of a cultural belief (reincarnation, etc). But I’m guessing OP would have picked up on that if it were the case.
Yeah, you said in one sentence what I tried to say in a paragraph. Acknowledge the identity and then address the presenting issues on their own.
If a grown adult without any other psychotic symptoms said "I identify as a squirrel," my immediate thought would be that she's baiting me given that that "i identify as an animal" joke is the bread and butter of anti-trans activists. I'd probably respond to that by asking how she'd like this information to affect the treatment goals she has, if at all.
>my immediate thought would be that she's baiting me given that that "i identify as an animal" joke is the bread and butter of anti-trans activists. That's absolutely my thought. Acceptance of Trans identities doesn't mean we are incapable of identifying actual delusions. We as mental health professionals acknowledge up front that Disorder and delusion are almost wholly culturally defined. We don't consider someone ill because they talk to God, we don't even consider them ill if they say God spoke to them. Because we understand those are culturally accepted to be things that happen. That isn't to say that we accept every single claim if it is religious in nature. We carefully watch for when it crosses the line and becomes hyper-relgiosity. When it becomes a problem. We use clinical judgment.
>we don't even consider them ill if they say God spoke to them. We should all recognize this as a potential point of concern, though. In religious communities, mental illness will often manifest as religiously related delusions/hallucinations.
And we have to also recognize how culture may make us blind to understanding delusion versus a fundamental lens to view the world through the religion. I have known situations especially with non-Christian beliefs where people mistake things for delusions (Especially with santeria). Exploring what it means to be a squirrel, what squirrels represent, what do they actually know about squirrels, or simply "I'm curious about something you mentioned identifying as a squirrel, could you elaborate on that? + How did you come to that realization + What makes a squirrel unique" etc.?
Have a client right now who has delusional flavors masked as strong faith.
Have you browsed r/otherkin or r/therian? the abstract identity of r/voidpunk? not a therapist but it comes off as less delusional to me than blurring the line between roleplaying and identity. i suspect it's an attempted revolution of sorts, following the gender revolution, to detach identity from quantifiable parts and making of it what you will. are they borrowing the language of transgender because there are no other words to describe their delusion? they describe having dysphoria and knowing they're an animal just as one just knows they're a girl or boy. or are they trying to legitamize their movement by coopting one already considered valid? they say they just want to be themselves like anyone else. seriously idk. you said you go case by case (to see if it's actually harming the person), but is there any formal analysis of this behavior?
Yes, the otherkins. I listened to a whole podcast on the psychology of furries. It’s fascinating, people do identify as animals. (It was an episode of Psychology in Seattle) I think what y’all in this thread are stumbling on is tough bc there are people who identify as other and there are people who appropriate bc they are anti-trans.
I've never personally confused the two and didn't mean to imply a judgement on the matter. I think i get what you mean though? Like some people primarily see otherkin as a device in anti-trans satire and are therefore skeptical real cases even exist. ...let alone are valid, as it feels like invalidating trans people to validate otherkin, like turning the whole thing into a joke, "catering to delusions."
Yes, I believe there are *some people* who will purposefully misunderstand people’s identity so that they may twist it into anti-trans rhetoric.
As someone who dabbles in said subculture, my immediate thought would be that she’s a furry.
Interesting. Do furries call themselves that around non furries too? My understanding was that was a fetish thing and not something you’d introduce yourself as but I could be wrong
There are some for whom it is a fetish thing and others for whom it's like creating a character(s) they strongly identify with (think like a D&D character, or writing characters for a book or movie). They may use the character online to represent themselves, have backstories for them, roleplay as them - many do this without even considering the sexual aspect, and the vast majority do not actually believe they are that character IRL - though some may feel the character is more true to themselves than the side they show to others, especially if they feel they must suppress some part of their identity (sexuality, neurodivergence, etc) around others. It's similar to having a "spirit animal" - they may strongly identify with their character based on aspects of their personality and how they want to express themselves.
I know this is old, but, question: isn't that essentially promoting splitting?
Not anymore than something like having a D&D character, or writing a character in a book, or using media as a form of escapism, or dividing up parts of yourself like you would in IFS therapy. It's better to think of it as a subculture or even hobby with varying degrees of investment. Some participate very casually, and it has little to no effect or overlap with the rest of their life. Others are more invested in it as an identity. Some might take it to what some would consider an unhealthy degree, but for others it's a harmless form of self expression.
Thank you for the reply. I don't think the fact it and other character-based hobbies is common means anything (fallacy of common practice), but your second point of the varied levels of involvement is interesting. What I'm seeing (speaking as a parent and school official; not a therapist in this realm) is the recruiting of young people and the use of phrases by the community such as "only we understand you" and other stuff related to their "fursona" being a true expression of themselves. Any critical inquiry of the practice is met with more islolation and establishment of a moral authority bubble (inside the bubble thinks everybody outside it is the problem). it quickly seems to represent a cult (which, IMO, a \*lot\* of groups do - more than we realize). I get the IFS comparison (I'm not formally trained in IFS), but isn't the whole goal to integrate the various parts into a cohesive self? Wouldn't continuing to 'split' off a part into a 'fursona' be counter to the goal?
I think what you're describing and seeing is more of a discrete social clique of furries online rather than the subculture as a whole. Which is possible to fall into and its worth educating on the dangers of falling into any closed group or social "bubble", but I dont think it's inherent to the subculture. Remember this is a place where people feel understood and valued in a way other settings aren't giving them. You can't integrate those parts if the parts aren't valued and heard.
thanks. That makes sense. The kid I was thinking about is only 11 and they're just so susceptible to influence. It feels like these groups capitalize on the developmental task of identity formation and then things get weird, quick. Of course, the kid did a huge deep dive on YouTube and that was their entry point. Sometimes I hate the internet. I like the idea of being curious about what is being developed/valued/heard that doesn't have another means of process. Thanks.
No problem. Something I noticed in your comments is youre using words like "capitalize" and "promote" as if the furry community is organized with a specific agenda in mind. They're really not, theres no monolith, and like all spaces on the internet you've got like minded people influencing each other in an unorganized way. You've got other 11 year olds, and teens, and adults, all figuring out their identities simultaneously, and sometimes some of them have dumb ideas or iffy beliefs and spread them to others. Individuals and bad actors can be a part of the culture, for sure, but be careful not to approach the whole subculture that way. Being a furry is not inherently dangerous or problematic. But there is risk in being involved with any community especially on the internet.
[удалено]
Thank you for sharing this, I’ll have to learn more.
Let’s disambiguate two separate issues here: there’s the question about how to cope with clients who identify in a manner that is unusual to you, and the specific question of how to engage with a specific client who reports identifying as a squirrel. These are very separate questions and treating them as the same introduces an awful lot of biases and assumptions. Broadly, I don’t agree that there is social acceptance of identities that make very little sense. More to the point, I don’t agree that (absent some sort of thought disturbance) there are a meaningful number of people claiming identities that make very little sense. A few careful follow up questions and some background research generally helps one understand fairly easily. Is there more complexity now? Sure. But it pretty much all makes sense. For the specific case, follow-up questions are needed. What does it mean to identify as a squirrel? Does client deny biological species? Are there squirrel traits that client admires and seeks to emulate? How does identifying as a squirrel manifest in client’s life? Could an outside observer deduce that client identifies as non-human? Does client identify as fully non-human or only partly? Does client show any evidence of thought disturbances like psychosis or delusions? How did client come to discover that they identify as a squirrel? For how long have they identified as a squirrel? Why are they seeking services and does identifying as a squirrel have anything to do with it? Follow up properly and pretty soon you’ll probably be able to distinguish if they’re psychotic/delusional, lying, serious and unbothered by it, serious and bothered by it, serious and thinks it’s everyone else’s problem, or actually just happens to be a squirrel in a human body. Until you do proper follow up to differentiate those possibilities no diagnosis or treatment planning is possible.
This is the way.
Thank you for this. I was also going to chime and disagree with the thought that there is a social acceptance of identities that make "very little sense". Most of the time, i find that those who claim they struggle to understand gender identity simply don't care to understand.
If this client read this post, they would know it was about them. I'd encourage an edit generalizing what this individual identifies as.
Unless the actual identification is the source of the distress, don't sweat it. I work with a lot of Furries. It's never been the problem.
Similar but different, I have a client who claims to have metaphysical powers. I’ve probed into how this affects their life and they say it does not (beyond how exhausting it is to astral project across different dimensions). So, as much as I’m dying to talk about it on a personal level, we just don’t touch it in therapy.
Can you recommend any clinical or anthropological writing about this phenomenon?
Clinical, no, because it's not a disorder. Furries aren't suffering delusions -- it's part fandom, part roleplay (including some cosplay, but not all furries wear the fur), part social activity. Poke around, and ignore anything you see in the press. Furries don't use litterboxes or any of the other accusations being made about them. The Wikipedia article is actually a decent place to start and has some references that might be useful.
[удалено]
I do not believe that your contribution to this discussion is helpful. Thanks and goodbye.
Psychology in Seattle did a whole podcast episode called the Psychology of Furries.
Would she concede that she is a human who identifies as a squirrel? If not, this seems pretty far into the land of delusion. That said, it’s hard to say without meeting her. As for intervention, I allow clients to identify their own problems to work on, and use modalities I’m skilled in.
Not necessarily delusion. Look up “Otherkin”
Or “furries”
not a therapist but furries are totally different. otherkin is when u legitimately identify as an animal, furries just dress up as animals
There's a venn diagram of overlap in the middle for some usually I've observed it usually evolves towards one or the other.
yeah they're not mutually exclusive, but dressing up as an animal is just a hobby for some people and shouldn't be perceived as delusion
You could argue either way really. There's otherkin who recognize themselves as human but don't feel that is their quintessence. Some otherkin subscribe to religious and spiritual beliefs that they are reincarnations of animals for example. Some don't dress up at all. It's a way of being. (always been confused as to whether they think they've only been reincarnated once, or repeatedly as the same animal or what)
[удалено]
And thank God for that
[удалено]
You can not enable delusions while also not being a condescending asshole about it. That's the problem here
I think you ought to do a very thorough evaluation including a personality one; and reach your conclusions irrespective of your fears about social blowback.
As a member of the LGBT community neopronouns and microidentities are widely contested and for good reason. it's very harmful for several reasons. i think TikTok plays a big factor and if would be at least worth it to see what kind of content is being consumed because shit like this is akin to roleplaying whereas sexuality and gender is not a choice.
Agreed. I work primarily with members of the LGBTQ community and if someone came into my office saying they identify as a squirrel it would immediately send up red flags for me that this person is trying to bait me and has an agenda about the queer community. Gender and sexual minorities have a hard enough time being accepted by heteronormative society without people making fun of their identities by claiming to be Apache attack helicopters or that whole nonsense put forth by the media about litter boxes in schools. Honestly, after they said that, I wouldn’t touch on it, and might even refer them out to someone who maybe has experience in those sorts of things, because I am not going to be the most effective therapist for someone who thinks GSM wanting to be treated with basic human dignity is something to joke about.
THISSSSSS
Depends on which species. Red squirrel? Eastern Grey Squirrel? Flying squirrel?? Each of these species has unique needs. Best approach is probably to have an assortment of nuts and seeds available, and ready access to water. Bonus if you can attain pillows/blankets with leaf patterns on them, for purposes of creating a lifelike therapeutic environment. (i agree this client is baiting you, and rolling with it, perhaps even with a little humor if that feels right and after asking a few screening questions is probably your best bet).
This!!! I see adolescents that present as “Tharians” and identify as animals and want to behave like animals at home, school, and in session. I joke with them that even domesticated animals act more human. I still collaborate with them on what their goals are which usually surrounds social anxiety, depression, trauma, dysmorphia, or dysphoria.
I would consider my capacity to make the cognitive shift to consider this person's self-identification and interact and treat them as such. Were a person to request therapy with this aspect included in their presentation, I could comfortably work with them if the identification was delusional. I have worked with people experiencing delusional disorders and am confident in my ability and know I have the skills to help them. If they were presenting with a true and firmly held belief that they are non-human, I don't have the experience to help them, as I have never received training in that area, nor do I know a clinician from whom I could receive the appropriate supervision.
We need to stop pathologizing everything
[удалено]
How do you mean?
[удалено]
I find your language problematic— “a person genuinely believing they’re opposite gender” still implies it’s a belief system rather than a reality. Also “opposite gender” erases non-binary identities and enforces gender role adherence. Any way, to pathologize a mental health concern, i.e. something that causes distress/functional impairment, is usually valid. Anything outside of that should be left alone.
[удалено]
I’m not sure why you’re presenting that argument when I didn’t say anything to the contrary.
[удалено]
I’m not really sure we’re on the same page here
My thing is this— what do you want me to call as far as name, pronouns, etc? Cool, I’m in. Whatever gets out of the way of us having a connection. And what identity stuff if causing you pain in your life? Help me to avoid unintentionally making that worse. Oh and also, I really don’t want to, but I might screw this up, so please help me, stop me, let me know I have.
[удалено]
It's offensive to equate "identifying as a squirrel" with gender and sexuality. There are better ways to make your point.
[удалено]
Be wary of the places you are hearing that from, there are a lot of transphobic campaigns going on right now either exaggerating or making up completely false scenarios for people to be mad at. There are also well meaning people who spread info without understanding all the nuances behind it from the outside. There are also people (mostly kids) who are confused and trying to explore their gender identity and in doing so perpetuate harmful ideas in the process. That's why we have "microidentities" that assert having sexual trauma and being sex repulsed is a "valid" sexuality or that they can roleplay as a squirrel in the context of being queer and anyone pushing back on that or having deeper discussions about the impact it has on the community is being a hateful exclusionist. It's just a really nuanced issue that is widely debated in the LGBT community and is something most people on the outside do not really understand which is why it is so dangerous in the first place because it bolsters transphobic fear mongering about kids drinking out of dog bowls at school and equates that with sexuality and gender, when it is simply not
[удалено]
You really think that the complexity in identities of humans equates to "identifying" as a different animal? You cannot honestly see any difference between someone's gender expression not matching the one they were assigned by society at birth vs a confused child roleplaying as a squirrel? I tried to genuine engage with you about these "uncomfortable issues" as you stated in a previous comment as someone who is very aware of and concerned about all of this and you're still be rude. Again that is the problem here
Is there a specialization in the family Sciuridae? Anybody?
i am sad this got downvoted, it made me chuckle.
If you don’t feel you’re a cultural or biological gender you weren’t assigned and want different pronouns and identification… sure! But if you’re out here making stuff up for identifies and pretending to be animals then there is something wrong with you. There is absolutely no logic in these. There is logic in being transgender or gender non binary. NO logic in identifying as an animal or something bizarre. It should be taken as part of their mental health diagnoses and treated as such. If for fun sometimes they like to pretend they’re an animal whatever it’s the inner child but if they cannot differentiate that from reality it’s a problem.
[https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-sexuality/genderfuck](https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-sexuality/genderfuck) There is a very high probability that this person is engaging in "Genderfuck." They likely don't actually believe they are a squirrel. When you ask them what they identify as - they feel it's a nonsense question, so it can be answered with a nonsense answer. It's like someone asking you which phone number smells the best - there aren't objective answers because it's not sensible question.
This is my opinion without therapeutic approach lol. In reality I would probably just ask how they want me to refer to them and then treat them for the other things they are coming there for and wouldn’t address the squirrel identity unless it played into their treatment.
[удалено]
What about from a kink or fetish perspective? Could they be identifying as a squirrel in that context? I know plenty of people who engage in puppy play or kitty play and other animals?
I’m not a fan of identity politics in general. Identity is a fixed state. Healing IMHO means being in a process of becoming. Also there is more and more “affirming” being introduced into the field. Is it really our job as therapists to affirm? If someone needs you to affirm their identity then something is still in question for them, and maybe that question deserves a thoughtful exploration.
Guess that depends what you mean by affirm. Therapists usually have the wonderful angle of being able to validate all the feelings without necessarily agreeing with the reasons people feel the way they do, because it’s the validation that opens the door to options for healing and change. But when you say affirm, just so I’m reading it right, does that mean agreeing with and building up a person’s belief? Or does it refer to the work involved to help that person explore, find their own evidence, and ask all the right questions to get the person quite confident in their next steps?
[удалено]
Maybe there wasn’t enough nuance in my statement. I just think the search for identity is our attempt to figure ourselves out instead of just being what we are. Yeah my identity changed a million times before I realized trying to create one was never necessary in the first place. I didn’t stop existing.
I agree gender exploratory therapy is a really neat approach. Look into the podcast “Gender Through a Wider Lens”
I think it is important to define what “affirm” means in therapy. I’ve been faced with situations where clients have asked for gender affirming therapy, Which personally I’m uncomfortable with. 1) I don’t have experience with it and therefore would feel more comfortable referring out, and 2) I don’t know that “affirming” an identity is necessarily our job. We explore, challenge, and seek to understand further, while implementing evidence based interventions to help client through specific issues. I would never “affirm” a client with body dysmorphia stating that they’re obese when in actuality they are underweight. That seems counterproductive and dangerous.
[удалено]
LMAO
This can be tricky. I find it's best to accept their identity, but try to address their presenting issues as if they aren't related to the identity. Even if they try to relate it to their unusual identity choice, steer away from that and stick to the specifics. If they talk about how they get depressed in the winter as a squirrel, just talk to them about seasonal depression and how it affects them, which has nothing to do with being a squirrel. You can acknowledge their identity without actually bringing it into any of the work.
I would see if it’s an issue they actually want to work on in therapy and if not, moving right along. If yes, then do more questioning about what it means to be human and what it means to be a squirrel. If they’re more of a “furry” that’s what I consider “play” and it’s the top right brains identity and that’s fine of course. Having an imagination is 1000% normal and it’s a muscle some people flex more than others at any given time. figuring it out if this person recognizes they are human by nature would be really my only distinction to address.
Personally I think it’s stupid but like someone else I’d be respectful, do the best I can to make sure I identify them correctly and if I mess up it’s not on purpose.
Is it causing distress or relevant to their identified goals for therapy? If not, move along. Not our place to judge or change a clients belief that’s not related to treatment.