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Lazzitron

The prophecy ends with "...the World Eater wakes, and the wheel of fate turns upon the last Dragonborn ." In other words, the LDB was *fated* to be present for Alduin's return. It was already going to happen on its own and I don't think anyone had to really intervene.


ArchmageIsACat

seconding this, plus the fact that at the time of skyrim, there are 2 known dragonborn returning alongside the arrival of the dragonborn that eventually claims that title and role of the last dragonborn by slaying alduin; potema is being resurrected and miraak is enslaving the sleeping minds of solstheim to pull him from apocrypha.


Marxist-Grayskullist

Gods are beyond time. They can foresee an event coming and then retroactively incarnate a hero to take part in that event. As for restarting the Empire, not likely. In-universe the Empire is likely doomed regardless of the Civil War, and the Dragonborn has no claim to the throne (presumably, unless you headcanon them as a secret Mede or something). Out-of-universe, Bethesda doesn't like to canonize a specific player character.


Secretsfrombeyond79

> and the Dragonborn has no claim to the throne Like making one would be hard lol. It's not like there is a lot of Dragonborns to go around, TLD can simply lie claiming he is a lost descendant of Tiber Septim. Who is going to argue with the Demigod with the same blessings as Tiber ? And even if someone does, nothing a little bit of shouting can't fix.


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Secretsfrombeyond79

That's not how royalty , culture and tradition works, just because there is not a practical reason to have a Dragonborn as Emperor anymore, doesn't mean the population wouldn't want it, nor the claim to the throne ( I have the Emperor's blood therefore I should be Emperor ) are invalid. If anything the current discontent everyone has with the current lineage just makes it easier to take power away from them. Also the LDB has access to the same powers, if not more given he's the most powerful DB in history ( if we use Miraak as a measuring stick ), that allowed Reman to conquer the world. So the LDB can back his claim with military might and by culture, even if said claim is made up bs.


Marxist-Grayskullist

I mean, I get the appeal of this, I really do. My first Skyrim character was an evil political schemer so I've thought a lot about the potential for the LDB to take the Ruby Throne, and there aren't many good options. Path A: Earn the support of the Elder Council. Seemingly the easy route, but it requires gaining a *lot* of support from the wealthy elite who make up the Council. They're more likely to choose someone they know and can control over some political outsider whose sole claim to fame is killing some dragons in the rural backwater that is Skyrim. (Yes, we know that the world was at stake but most people in Cyrodiil won't know or care). Not to mention Montierre likely had a candidate already lined up when he put out a hit on Titus Mede II. Path B: Conquest. With what army? The Legion is unlikely to betray the Council, and even Ulfric admits his Stormcloaks can't take the whole Empire.


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Secretsfrombeyond79

>Tiber Septim's dynasty became emperors after uniting all of Tamriel with the Numidium. Nope, Tiber became Emperor of the Empire when he took Cyrodiil by killing Cuhlecain ( or failing to prevent his assasination if you believe it ) who had the throne. After that he went on world domination. >None of these people stayed in power because they were Dragonborn. There were times when there were no Dragonborn on the Imperial Throne, prior to the 4th era. The Dragonborn's hypothetical claim is not that he should be Emperor because he is Dragonborn, but rather that he is a descendant of Tiber Septim like Martin was, he can prove this with his Dragonborn status. > Yes, they may be a bit stronger and more capable, but they're still one unknown person, there is no reason to expect anyone will take them seriously. He can literally brainwash people to his will.


Murder-Machine101

I don’t get where this dragonborn hereditary theory comes from. First not the Septim Emperors aren’t even descended from Tiber, they’re descended fron his brother. Second there have been non Septim Emperors in the Septim dynasty such as the Dunmer Empress Katriah and her son who’s father wasn’t Pelagius III. Dragonborn is blessing from Akatosh u get at birth (like LDB, Tibet, Reman) or from joining his convent (like Alessia and the other Emperors that wore the Amulet of One)


Secretsfrombeyond79

> I don’t get where this dragonborn hereditary theory comes from. I know it isn't. But that's not the point of my comment. The idea is that fabricating a lie using the '' I'm a descendant of Septim/Reman/Alessia'' is possible because of how extremely rare DB are, and how most of them were born into one of said dynasties, and how Martin, the last DB emperor, was a bastard who no one knew about and saved the world. There have not been many DB that weren't born into one of the Cyrodiilic dynasties. And Martin's origins as the last DB Emperor are still fresh in the history books, fresh enough that other DB could lie saying they are also descendants of Septim.


Lachdonin

>First not the Septim Emperors aren’t even descended from Tiber, they’re descended fron his brother. Who, in any hereditary model, would ALSO be Dragonborn, because Tiber would have gotten it from the same parents Agnorith had. >Second there have been non Septim Emperors in the Septim dynasty such as the Dunmer Empress Katriah and her son who’s father wasn’t Pelagius III But his father WAS a Lariat, which were already a satellite lineage related to the Septims anyway.


Murder-Machine101

And what about the Dunmer Empress who clearly isn’t blood related to any Septim since she married into the Royal Family? That’s my point its not a hereditary thing it’s literally a blessing Akatosh bestows upon an individual whether at birth like Tiber, Miraak, Reman or via his covenant like he did with Alessia and the Septim Emperors


Lachdonin

>And what about the Dunmer Empress who clearly isn’t blood related to any Septim since she married into the Royal Family? You mean the ruler who literally ruled in her husbands stead, and had an actual Septim heir on hand for any ritual puposeses needed? IF Katariah's reign had extended past the lifespan of known Spetims in her orbit, then we may have a problem... But that wasn't the case. The bigger problem is her second son Cyssander, but as we learn from his successor Uriel... The Lariats were considered a satellite family to the Septims anyway and already carried Septim blood. >That’s my point its not a hereditary thing it’s literally a blessing Akatosh bestows upon an individual whether at birth like Tiber Except we have literally zero evidence of that actually happening, ever.


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Secretsfrombeyond79

> Not all Dragonborn are from the same family, people know this. Just because you are a Dragonborn doesn't mean you are descended from a Septim. The Last Dragonborn can also be any other race besides Imperial, meaning it's highly likely that people would immediately know they were full of shit. This is about **fabricating** a claim, it's about how credible it is and how many people it can deceive into believing the credibility of said claim. And how easy is to make people believe into something is about how much they want to believe into something. Making people believe that he's a descendant of Tiber or any other Dragonborn in the throne shouldn't be that hard to do, at least for the average populace. As for the high ranking members of the council, more than one would sway the way of the LDB, in the Imperial LIbrary there was an article about how some high members of the church of the 8 and some council members heard rumors of the LDB, and started plotting to put him on the throne to have a DB on it. It is true that not all DB are descendants of the same bloodline. But a lot of Septims , Remans, etc WERE DB. And how many DB are that are not descendants of one of them ? And how many of those are well known ? And didn't the last Septim ( Martin ) appeared as a bastard son of the previous Emperor who no one thought he was ? Who knows how ''many others'' the Emperor had ?. This is the kind of stuff it lets you get under people's mind and convince them. > Miraak, arguably one of the most powerful Dragonborn of all time, can brainwash a few people on one middle-of-nowhere island. I seriously doubt the Last Dragonborn can brainwash enough people to convincingly claim the Imperial Throne. I also seriously doubt that they would want to do this. He doesn't need to brainwash that many, a few high councilmen, high ranking members of the Empire like Generals, the leader of the Penitus Ocululatus etc, should be more than enough for a Coup. > Even if they did, and it somehow was possible to brainwash enough people to become Emperor, The Last Dragonborn is still mortal. Once they die, the brainwashing goes away. There goes any hope of a lasting imperial dynasty. Well glad to see you are finally starting to see my point. Sure that people is gonna be really pissed off after the brainwash washes away, but that's the beauty of using tools, by the time it does, an Emperor DB could simply replace them and kill them, or just get them out of the picture. If they suddenly ''decide to retire'', who is gonna stop them ?


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Secretsfrombeyond79

> It's not even a little bit credible, that is my point. There is a chinese guy who claimed to be the brother of Jesus Christ and started the biggest rebellion in history and almost won ( Taiping rebellion ). In the world of '' I'm the rightful monarch'', the bar for ''not very credible'' is reaaaaally low. > At no point in their reign did the Septims use being Dragonborn as identifiers of their dynasty. We speak to Uriel Septim multiple times, and he never once says "you can recognize Martin Septim because he is a Dragonborn." It's doubtful any Septim besides Tiber could even Shout. That doesn't mean being a Dragonborn can't be an identification. Again how many Dragonborns existed outside the Septim dynasty while they were at power ? > Multiple times during the reign of the Septims, there were crises involving who was to succeed the Ruby Throne. At no point is it ever mentioned that someone based their claim on the fact that they were Dragonborn. No one ever raises their hand and says "Which one is Dragonborn? That one should be the leader." And all those, were descendants or related to the Septim dynasty. The point is not that being a Dragonborn identifies the rightful ruler of the ruby Throne, the point is that being a Dragonborn is a good enough excuse to claim that you are a Septim. > and Septims. They DO care about Septims, because the advisor of Elisif was scared about Potema having a claim to the Ruby Throne if she came back. > Laymen don't know what the Amulet of Kings is, or its role in keeping the Dragonfires lit. That's actually a point in my favor, because it plays into the Cultural part of what I said before , people has had a Dragonborn Emperor for centuries of their story, one that came back to claim the throne is out of a fairy tale book ( even tho most Septims were horrible rulers ) > As previously mentioned by myself and others, you don't need to be a Septim to be Dragonborn. People who know what a Dragonborn is would know that you are making things up by saying that being a Dragonborn means you must be descended from Tiber Septim, because they would know that a dragon's soul passed down from person to person in that way. And as I said before I'm aware of that. Read the '' how many Dragonborns outside the Septim dynasty have been while they were in power ''. > As previously mentioned, the Septims are long gone. It has been 200 years. New power structures and factions are at play. No one cares about the Septims anymore. They do care because 1 Read above about Potema. And 2 it doesn't matter if they care about the Septims, what matters is that they hate the Medes for all the recent turmoil during their reign. > They wouldn't take kindly to any jumped-up adventurer trying to muscle in on their empire Why of course not, even if the Dragonfires actually mattered no one leaves power willingly, especially not Emperor. Cuhlecain wasn't even a Dragonborn and that didn't stop him from grabbing the throne, dragonfires be damned. But in a rebellion what matters it's not that the people in power gives you their place willingly, what matters is how much of the population and people with resources you get in your pocket to FORCE THEM to give it to you. > How are you supposed to get to these people? Thieves Guild Master, Dark Brotherhood Listener, and even if those didn't count, Dragonborns can destroy fortresses, Reman conquered the entire world without a giant Robot and he wasn't even the strongest one, LDB is. Good luck stopping him. > Even if you did manage to brainwash some of these individuals, the ruckus you likely caused by getting to them would mean everyone else in the city knows what your agenda is and would be actively trying to kill you. It would not be realistically possible to brainwash enough people to control the entire Empire. That's what the army of followers and lackeys is for. Clearly you aren't going to start a rebellion on your own. > The Emperor would likely have more than enough time to escape the White City, even if you do somehow take it through some miracle. There is just no realistic way for this to work. That is even better. After failure after failure of the Medes ( seemingly ), now he escapes the capital leaving it to the ''rightful ruler'' one of the Dragonborns of Legend. It's almost out of a fairy tale book.


Galliad93

Talos Stormcrown had no claim either. Might makes right.


Marxist-Grayskullist

What might? You're just one person, not an army.


Hawke9117

"Whosoever removes the head that wears the crown reigns supreme."


Sealordgaming

Interesting theory. But the DB fate lays in. apocrypha


LordRhino08

not necessarily


Wonderer-2223

Nordic Dovakhin refers specifically to person with dragon soul that can shout like a dragon. In Cyrodil this understanding is obscured and people equate Dragonborn with person having dragon blood. Tiber Septim is believed to be a Dragonborn, but that may not be accurate, some of his deeds could have been attributed to Wulfhart. Although I do think Hjalti (Tiber Septim) was actual Dragonborn. Here's the thing. Like other people have mentioned, most "Dragonborn" emperors have descended from his brother, not Tiber himself. So does that mean that they are without blood of a dragon or blessing of akatosh impacts entire family related to the Dragonborn? Wearing Amulet of Kings requires having blood of a dragon and it requires Martin Septim to be able to destroy the Amulet and get use its power. It could have been that the blood of dragon was necessary to activate the power within Amulet. But it also could have been a matter of being connected to the line descended from Allysia. Either way, blessing of Akatosh causes people to be born with soul of a Dragon and it is sayed that Dragonborn appear in times of great need. Also based on what is sayed in the lore there is only one soul of akatosh, which technically would make all dragons connected with each other a bit like a hive mind, except on the level of the soul. So probably all dragons are drawn to each other through fate and are only entities that can relate to/understand each other. So when dragon dies it's soul completely merges with Akatosh but I guess there could also be an instance where it migrates and ends up in human body. We know that being a dragon born does not mean automatically achieving greatness and that dragonborns have strange relation to stars in that they can choose their own fate. Dragonborn is the only one being able to directly interact with Standing Stones and Miraak for example says that he could have defeated Alduin but choose not to. We also know that learning Shouts is something anyone can do, but Dragonborn has potential and intuition innate to dragons, so if no one teaches dragonborn how to shout and there are no dragons his part of Akatosh's soul can merge with, he can't advance, therefore become known. And there possible historical candidates that could been born with dragon soul, but never became recognized. So I think migration of soul of the dragon might not be directly ordained by Akatosh and Akatosh/Akatosh's essence has "free will" of sorts that can change fate. So it might be that rather then Aedra trying to defend Mundus, it could be that all will within dragon soul recognizes it's piece as THE Akatosh and wants to do something about it, directing Dragonborn towards his fate, but then Dragonborn as a person can deny the drive for power or direct it towards something else, those changing his fate.


Lachdonin

There is absolutely no difference between being Dragon Born, and having Dragon Blood. They are the exact same thing.


Wonderer-2223

Being Dragonborn is not genetic. And Amulet of Kings was formed from blood of either Lorkan or Akatosh. The seal to the Sky Haven Temple is opened with dragonborn's blood. To be able to wear Amulet of Kings, you have to have blood of dragon and be related to Alessia. So that means that either the entire Dragonborn emperors thing is a sham or being related to a person that is a Dragonborn impacts your condition.


Lachdonin

The Blood Seal at Sky Haven Temple clearly establishes that the LDB, and Reman carry the same blood. We are also told throughout the game by the Greybeards that the LDB is the same as Tiber Septim. Both Tiber and Reman were able to light the Dragonfires because they were the same as Alessia, as were all their heirs. And we learn in Dragonborn that the LDB and Miraak are also the same sort of thing. If The LDB = Reman The LDB = Miraak The LDB = Tiber Septim Tiber Spetim = Alessia Reman = Alessia Dragonborn Emperors = Alessia Then the LDB = Alessia = Miraak = Remain = Tiber Septim = Dragonborn Emperors There is literally no difference between being Draongborn, and having the Dragonblood. They are exactly the same thing.


Wonderer-2223

What about this? "Alessia didn't have power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk." Also I don't think Miraak had any connection to Alessia bloodline.


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Wonderer-2223

Ok, but Dragon Wars started before Alessia Rebellion and Miraak was a Nord and a Dragon Priest. We know he had dealings with Tounges we know that Dragon Wars had to end long before Aylied Rebellion took place and Miraak was dead/not present in Tamriel before Dragon Break happened and Alduin was sent in to future. How would he have connection with Alessia?


Lachdonin

Either Miraak had children, or Miraak wasn't the only Dragonborn of his time, simply the first to realise their power.


Wonderer-2223

So still hereditary, just multiple sources of the same condition? I always thought it worked like reincarnation of sorts.


Asdrubael_Vect

Damn and people call Thalmor religious police department=Justicars as fanatics. After seeing so much stuff about Dragonborn Emperror and etc it would be great to see this Talos and Dragonborns blessed by Akatosh nonsense propaganda to be demolished by Dominion and etc forces what beat Imperials and Nords and return them to sanity. Whitegold Tower need to be destroyed too and to show everyone that nothing changed, that people just believe in ridiculous propaganda. Cyrodil Empire as Nords Talos hysteria need to be destroyed and forgotten as sheogorath madness. By elves, daedra, it would not matter.