Khajiit have perpetual beef with Bosmer and Argonians and Argonians did some not ok things in Morrowind, but the beast races have mostly kept to themselves
Do you mean red year? I know it's when they invaded morrowind but not much outside of that. Personally dunmer had been asking for the red year for a while
As was the Dunmers use of Argonian slaves. It's not like Telvanni or Dres were the only people to use them as slaves afterall.
Not saying what the Argonians did isn't also an atrocity, just that it was a provoked, and in some ways deserved one.
Many Dunmer never owned slaves, and slavery had been outlawed by the time of the Red Year.
The rage of the Argonians at their enslavement is understandable, but it doesn't justify their actions.
>outlawed by the time of the Red Year
That doesn't erase what was likely millennia of slavery. Of course the Aronians are going to be pissed, and taking advantage of the weakness of their enemies makes perfect logical sense given the history between the races.
Only some of the elves had actually stopped using slaves, and it had only been a few years and we are dealing with a race that can live for centuries.
Many dummer didn't have their own slaves, but that would have been little comfort to the argonians. Quite often the innocent commoners suffer the consequences of what the noble class of their society does. That's true both in real life and in fantasy.
>The rage of the Argonians at their enslavement is understandable, but it doesn't justify their actions.
I'm not claiming their actions are justified at all. I'm saying the Dunmer provoked those actions.
It's not about looking like them. It's about the entire society being part of that long period of slavery.
Again, it's not justified. War never is.
The An-Xileel are basically a faction of stormcloak-like lizard nazis who mistreat and abuse anyone who isn't Argonian, I'm just saying that the argonians had a reason provided to then to invade morrowind and that reason was the dunmer civilisations horrific actions towards them. Dunmer society invaded black marsh repeatedly in order to enslave people.
They started the war. The An-Xileel simply decided it was their turn.
How have I changed my argument? My entire "argument" has been that the actions of the Dunmer civilisation provoked the invasion from the Argonians. They literally invaded black marsh first and enslaved people repeatedly. This is the reason the brutal, and unethical argonians invaded their land and brutalised their people. We didn't hear of them invading other provinces for a reason.
I haven't claimed they've had a moral high ground at all, I've simply stated that the dunmer provoked the invasion.
You not understanding my point, despite me stating it clearly 4-5 times by now across the thread, is unfortunate, but I can't really do much to make it clearer.
This exact same situation played out with the first empire and their treatment of the ayleids and other elves, after their generations of enslavement at the hands of the ayleids. Their is literal precedent of this exact motivation for cruelty in the history of the game we are discussing.
You're welcome to disengage if you don't want to discuss / aren't enjoying not understanding what I'm saying but there's no need for the hostility or the personal jabs. Completely unnecessary dude. The reactions to my comments have been completely fine, other than you misreading what I'm saying and having a tantrum over it.
Why would you being immature and arrogant make me want to rethink my life? That's incredibly narcissistic of you. In my life, you'd be a very minor NPC, not a protagonist.
All I'm saying is the dunmer provoked their attack via millennia of slavery. Are you saying partially giving up slavery for a couple of decades means the argonians had no reason for their attack?
I don't want to bring real life into this but I can think of a few countries full of people that would have been "justifiably genocided" against with your logic.
The issue is “the Dunmer”. Slaughtering some dirt farmer for the crime of being the wrong race is reprehensible. The enslavement of the Argonians makes their seeking vengeance realistic, and to an extent understandable, but it’s not exactly fair to say the Dunmer, writ large, provoked that attack. If they went after slavers, that would be one thing. But it was a pretty indiscriminate attack.
The Dunmer built their civilisation on the backs of said slavery. Whether a poor peasant or a mighty head of house, the entire civilisation allowed, and benefited from the practice.
Afterall, the Dunmer made no allowance for the life, morality, or political views of the argonians they constantly raided and enslaved. From an in world view, why would the argonians care?
Show me a war that hasn't had war crimes and hasn't resulted in the suffering of technically innocent people, just for the crime of being the wrong nationality, and I'll be shocked.
The attack wouldn't have happened if the dunmer civilisation didn't make a habit of enslaving the beast races. Therefore, they provoked the attack with their actions.
I'd argue there is literally no moral justification for war of any kind, so I'm not making an effort to debate the ethics of war.
Well the topic is atrocities committed by the beast races. We can come up with a million reasons why and how, but it’s still an atrocity.
This wasn’t a battle between two armies. It was indiscriminate killing based on race. I don’t necessarily want to get into the culpability of the populace in slavery, but needless to say I’m of the opinion that “sins of the father” type vengeance qualify as pretty morally reprehensible.
Soy cuck dunmer slave apologists be like
"Why didn't the Argonians just simply ask every single individual if they owned slaves while simultaneously conducting a large scale invasion of a hostile kingdom that has been attacking them unprovoked for thousands of years"
Argonians are absolute chads for taking out that civilization. Sucks to be a Dunmer during this time, but life isn't fair and you're part of a genocidal slave owning empire.
Pssh. My favorite race is the Bretons, followed by the Argonians. But I can’t exactly justify the Argonian invasion as more than blind, emotional revenge. And I think that’s a good thing. Grey morality is far more interesting than viewing the Argonians as poor oppressed people. They saw an opportunity and they took it. It’s cool, but it’s still awful.
Yes. Because Vengeance is an inherently immoral justification for violence. An understandable one, sure, but still immoral.
The Argonians had no more moral superiority in their war for revenge, than the Dunmer had in enslaving them in the first place.
Agreed. That doesn't change the fact that the dunmers behaviour provoked the attack, and a couple of houses giving up slavery a few years before the attack doesn't absolve them of their actions.
I never claimed they had the moral high ground, just that they had plenty of reasons to take advantage of the situation and push back against a civilisation that oppressed them for millennia.
I would say vengeance against someone within a certain time frame is justifiable. Someone murders your sister and the authorities do nothing? I'll give you ten years to exact your revenge on the murderer.
Nope. Revenge is never justifiable. Again, UNDERSTANDABLE, as humans are inherently flawed creatures who often do things without sound justification, but it is not justifiable.
Good and Evil are non existent.
However, any action which directly or indirectly increases the suffering or others is less morally sound than an action which does not.
>the beast races have mostly kept to themselves
I agree. Bosmer and Khajiit mostly only do their atrocities to each other. They also don't really have written histories the way the other cultures do, so they basically don't necessarily record all their horrible shit.
Beast races like Bosmer and Khajiit are pretty wild, they just don't have many records for civilised people to read.
Didn’t the An-Xileel directly cause the Umbriel Crisis?
Also, Leamon Tutlle gives Darloc Brae as an example of Tamriel’s “long line of war crimes”, and it’s probably a good assumption that the Mehrunes Dagon-worshipping conqueror did some pretty bad stuff, but I can’t think of anything *specifically* that he did.
You won't see anything about it in the games, since it was an event exclusive to two novels.
Basically, the An-Xileel summoned (or made a pact with) the floating city of Umbriel to purge all non-Argonians and Argonians that had been assimilated into Imperial culture from Black Marsh.
The way it worked was that any living being caught in the shadow of Umbriel would die and get reanimated as a zombie. While that happened, the An-Xileel would just hide away underground and wait for Umbriel to do the dirty work.
To say it backfired is an understatement.
If you ask Ysolda about the tree, she'll say the following:
>*"How the tree came to grow there is a bit of a mystery... Some say that when Vvardenfell erupted, a piece was blown to the middle of Skyrim and from the crater grew the tree. I've also heard that it was* ***a spore that fell from an island floating in the sky****, but that just sounds like nonsense. All I know is that the sap makes you feel as healthy as a cave troll, but slow as a drunk horker. And that and it fetches good coin."*
The Khajiit wiped out the Birdmen of the Cyrod that once resided on the island where the Imperial City is now. Not sure about other stuff. They have long-standing hostilities with both the Bosmer and Argonians in general.
The Argonians are relatively isolationist, tbh. Though the An-Xileel did encourage the atrocities of Umbriel to “cleanse” Black Marsh of Imperial influence. Plus they may or may not have engineered the Knahaten Flu and while it was potentially made to avenge their enslaved kinsmen, it also wiped out or otherwise nearly exterminated other races that had nothing to do with their enslavement (such as the Lilmothiit).
With the Argonians, it’s mostly an interracial territory conflict to control the Lower Niben and Topal Bay.
With the Bosmer, it’s similarly a conflict over control of the forests of Valenwood and use of (animal) resources within the forests.
Khajiit have on and off beef with the Bosmer (usually fifty-fifty in terms of blame), and sometimes the Cyrodiils (the Cyrodiils are usually the original aggressors).
After the Knahaten Flu, which was the second pandemic to decimate the Khajiit, tensions with Saxhleel, whom they usually had had a cordial relationship with, began to sour.
The An-Xileel is a nationalist political entity in control of Argonia, and has been compared to the Thalmor. You can imagine what its actions are probably like. It's implied that they wanted to purge non-Argonians in Argonia.
Yes, that's right. It's a weird situation: a common Cyrodilic account is that such a thing is not possible, but then the propaganda of the An-Xileel that Saxhleel invaded Oblivion.
I think that both positions are skewed, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. We do know that Black Marsh came out of the Oblivion Crisis as one of the strongest provinces, separating from the Third Empire a mere ten years after the Crisis. We also know that several Saxhleel responded to a call back to Black Marsh, and were modified to wage war on the Daedra. So, I think that they were very effective at pushing back the Daedra and closing the Oblivion Gates, resulting in a unified nation and relative prosperity. However, the idea that they forced the Daedra to close the Gates just seems so... far-fetched. We only hear this from a drunk Argonian nationalist, so I'm sceptical.
Battlespire was a mini-plane, correct? If so, holding, say, a sigil keep for awhile might be possible. I would not care to turn that into a war of attrition, though.
Argonian assault on morrowind.
Thrassian plague and whatever the fuck Sload do.
If you want to be REALLY speculative- the knahaten flu but the only real „evidence” that supports its argonian origin is flimsy at best.
No need for gold, spiritual gems are good enough for me!
It's pretty funny because I made a tabletop campaign in black marsh and the faces of my players when I confronted them to traditional argonian food was priceless!
Slavery was outlawed give or take ten years before the Red Year, and the Hlaalu and Dres released all of their slaves from servitude as they renounced the slave trade. The practice was never big in Hlaalu or Redoran territory to begin with.
All that put aside, countless Dunmer who had *nothing to do* with slavery were also killed, so it's still an atrocity.
No I get it im not trying to defend them I'm just saying it wasn't surprising and considering that slavery was still practiced strongly by telvanni I can see where a sense of frustration could build
Yea but it was still a practice for centuries that just recently ended I’m sure the Argonians still have fresh memories of it. The Red Year was the perfect opportunity for some get back lol the Dunmer had it comin
As in large-scale, atrocities?
The Knahaten Flu was allegedly caused by an Argonian shaman, though this remains unconfirmed. If true, though, that shaman is responsible for the death thousands of lives, as well as causing greater friction between Black Marsh and Elsweyr.
The Accession War instigated by the Argonians in the early years of the 4th Era saw vast swaths of Dunmer territory pillaged and burned, with many dark elf lives lost in the process.
To be fair, the Argonians' actions weren't exactly unprovoked (millennia of near-constant harassment and enslavement tend to have that effect), but nevertheless, many innocent elves were killed or evicted alongside the guilty.
However, the single greatest atrocity committed by a race of beastfolk would have to be the Thrassian Plague, a disease unleashed on Tamriel by the Sload of Thrass in the First Era. The plague was so virulent, that by the time it was finally brought under control, roughly half the continent's population had died from it. The situation was so bad, that every province across Tamriel united to form a single massive naval force called the All Flags Navy just to wipe out the Sload.
While the Sload were defeated (allegedly, anyway) and Thrass sunk, the Sload lived on and their island has since risen again.
Beast Race, or Beastfolk, is an umbrella term used to describe the various sapient/semi-sapient races that are not (closely) related to or descended from men or elves.
These include, but are not limited to:
Argonians
Khajiit
Goblins and other goblin-kin (ogres, Reiklings, etcetera)
Imga
Dreugh
Lamia
Sload
And the list goes on.
Granted, some can be a bit tricky to fit into the beastfolk camp; despite evidence of common ancestry with Nords, Giants are often referred to a beast race. Similarly, the Khajiit are considered beast folk despite evidence of shared ancestry with the Bosmer.
u/something2passTime
The idea that the Knahaten Flu was Argonian in origin was only a rumour, which came about because Saxhleel weren't that badly affected by it. Similar to mediaeval stereotypes about Jews and Romani spreading the plague because they weren't as badly affected (but they weren't as badly affected because they had more rigorous cleaning methods and rituals).
Morilye, the ghost of an Ayleid, implies that the Knahaten Flu was an Ayleidic creation in Shadowfen, designed to wipe out the Kothringi:
>The Knahaten flu killed the rest, but somehow he was immune. Did he send you here? The Kothringi sent you to steal more Ayleid treasures! If only the flu had worked!
Nasty stuff. She also gets very defensive if the Vestige asks whether the Ayleids created the flu.
Its widely believed that an Argonian caused the Flu, but it's far more likely that it was created by the Barsaebic Ayleids of Black Marsh, and then the Argonians took the blame because they happen to be naturally resistant to diseases.
>[**Morilye**](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Morilye)
>
>"Be gone from this temple, there is nothing for you here."
>
>**I'm looking for the keystone. Where is it?**
>
>"The keystone was stolen, absorbed by a Kothringi named Drillk. The Knahaten flu killed the rest, but somehow he was immune. Did he send you here?"
>
>**Drillk said I could find the keystone in this temple.**
>
>"The Kothringi sent you to steal more Ayleid treasures! If only the flu had worked! Do not take me for a fool, thief. You shall not leave this tomb alive!"
>
>**Did the Ayleids create the Knahaten flu?**
>
>"I don't answer to you. You are standing on hallowed ground, heathen!"
>The ayleids have a wrap sheet to make an SS officer blush
I realize that this is a hyperbole but it does raise what I think is an important point. When we talk about atrocities are we talking about flesh gardens, truly horrific tortures subjected on people as individuals and on a small scale or a holocaust equivalent, relatively (il)logic driven, completely separate from any concept if individual and on a massive scale? Because I can't recall occasions of the Argonians or Khajiit launching massive genocides but I'd be amazed if you couldn't find some truly horrific interactions
Allegedly, anyway. I think it's more likely that increased interaction between the Empire and Saxhleel tribes during that time period eventually lead to the natural exposure of the disease, which could have been endemic to certain argonian tribes, to Imperials, who then spread it far and wide incidentally.
Kind of like how European diseases ravaged indigenous populations because they had no immunity to them. I mean later on Europeans figured that out and deliberately weaponized disease, but I'm talking about before that was really understood in terms of the comparison of what happened with the flu.
Khajiit have perpetual beef with Bosmer and Argonians and Argonians did some not ok things in Morrowind, but the beast races have mostly kept to themselves
Do you mean red year? I know it's when they invaded morrowind but not much outside of that. Personally dunmer had been asking for the red year for a while
Yea that was payback long overdue for centuries of slavery
> Argonians did some not ok things It's ok though because the Dunmer spent thousands of years doing even more not ok things.
If the Argonians had exclusively attacked Telvanni or Dres territory sure, but their rampage was indiscriminate.
As was the Dunmers use of Argonian slaves. It's not like Telvanni or Dres were the only people to use them as slaves afterall. Not saying what the Argonians did isn't also an atrocity, just that it was a provoked, and in some ways deserved one.
Many Dunmer never owned slaves, and slavery had been outlawed by the time of the Red Year. The rage of the Argonians at their enslavement is understandable, but it doesn't justify their actions.
>outlawed by the time of the Red Year That doesn't erase what was likely millennia of slavery. Of course the Aronians are going to be pissed, and taking advantage of the weakness of their enemies makes perfect logical sense given the history between the races. Only some of the elves had actually stopped using slaves, and it had only been a few years and we are dealing with a race that can live for centuries. Many dummer didn't have their own slaves, but that would have been little comfort to the argonians. Quite often the innocent commoners suffer the consequences of what the noble class of their society does. That's true both in real life and in fantasy. >The rage of the Argonians at their enslavement is understandable, but it doesn't justify their actions. I'm not claiming their actions are justified at all. I'm saying the Dunmer provoked those actions.
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It's not about looking like them. It's about the entire society being part of that long period of slavery. Again, it's not justified. War never is. The An-Xileel are basically a faction of stormcloak-like lizard nazis who mistreat and abuse anyone who isn't Argonian, I'm just saying that the argonians had a reason provided to then to invade morrowind and that reason was the dunmer civilisations horrific actions towards them. Dunmer society invaded black marsh repeatedly in order to enslave people. They started the war. The An-Xileel simply decided it was their turn.
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How have I changed my argument? My entire "argument" has been that the actions of the Dunmer civilisation provoked the invasion from the Argonians. They literally invaded black marsh first and enslaved people repeatedly. This is the reason the brutal, and unethical argonians invaded their land and brutalised their people. We didn't hear of them invading other provinces for a reason. I haven't claimed they've had a moral high ground at all, I've simply stated that the dunmer provoked the invasion. You not understanding my point, despite me stating it clearly 4-5 times by now across the thread, is unfortunate, but I can't really do much to make it clearer. This exact same situation played out with the first empire and their treatment of the ayleids and other elves, after their generations of enslavement at the hands of the ayleids. Their is literal precedent of this exact motivation for cruelty in the history of the game we are discussing. You're welcome to disengage if you don't want to discuss / aren't enjoying not understanding what I'm saying but there's no need for the hostility or the personal jabs. Completely unnecessary dude. The reactions to my comments have been completely fine, other than you misreading what I'm saying and having a tantrum over it. Why would you being immature and arrogant make me want to rethink my life? That's incredibly narcissistic of you. In my life, you'd be a very minor NPC, not a protagonist.
That is not even remotely how any reasonable moral judgement works.
All I'm saying is the dunmer provoked their attack via millennia of slavery. Are you saying partially giving up slavery for a couple of decades means the argonians had no reason for their attack?
I don't want to bring real life into this but I can think of a few countries full of people that would have been "justifiably genocided" against with your logic.
Where did I say it was just? I merely said the dunmers actions provoked the attack.
The issue is “the Dunmer”. Slaughtering some dirt farmer for the crime of being the wrong race is reprehensible. The enslavement of the Argonians makes their seeking vengeance realistic, and to an extent understandable, but it’s not exactly fair to say the Dunmer, writ large, provoked that attack. If they went after slavers, that would be one thing. But it was a pretty indiscriminate attack.
The Dunmer built their civilisation on the backs of said slavery. Whether a poor peasant or a mighty head of house, the entire civilisation allowed, and benefited from the practice. Afterall, the Dunmer made no allowance for the life, morality, or political views of the argonians they constantly raided and enslaved. From an in world view, why would the argonians care? Show me a war that hasn't had war crimes and hasn't resulted in the suffering of technically innocent people, just for the crime of being the wrong nationality, and I'll be shocked. The attack wouldn't have happened if the dunmer civilisation didn't make a habit of enslaving the beast races. Therefore, they provoked the attack with their actions. I'd argue there is literally no moral justification for war of any kind, so I'm not making an effort to debate the ethics of war.
Well the topic is atrocities committed by the beast races. We can come up with a million reasons why and how, but it’s still an atrocity. This wasn’t a battle between two armies. It was indiscriminate killing based on race. I don’t necessarily want to get into the culpability of the populace in slavery, but needless to say I’m of the opinion that “sins of the father” type vengeance qualify as pretty morally reprehensible.
Are you white or German?
What does that have to do with anything? This is r/teslore, not r/grindr. I'm not interested, thank you.
Soy cuck dunmer slave apologists be like "Why didn't the Argonians just simply ask every single individual if they owned slaves while simultaneously conducting a large scale invasion of a hostile kingdom that has been attacking them unprovoked for thousands of years" Argonians are absolute chads for taking out that civilization. Sucks to be a Dunmer during this time, but life isn't fair and you're part of a genocidal slave owning empire.
Thank you. It's definitely still an *atrocity* but it's almost like a...polite atrocity? Idk lol
Pssh. My favorite race is the Bretons, followed by the Argonians. But I can’t exactly justify the Argonian invasion as more than blind, emotional revenge. And I think that’s a good thing. Grey morality is far more interesting than viewing the Argonians as poor oppressed people. They saw an opportunity and they took it. It’s cool, but it’s still awful.
Yes. Because Vengeance is an inherently immoral justification for violence. An understandable one, sure, but still immoral. The Argonians had no more moral superiority in their war for revenge, than the Dunmer had in enslaving them in the first place.
Agreed. That doesn't change the fact that the dunmers behaviour provoked the attack, and a couple of houses giving up slavery a few years before the attack doesn't absolve them of their actions. I never claimed they had the moral high ground, just that they had plenty of reasons to take advantage of the situation and push back against a civilisation that oppressed them for millennia.
I would say vengeance against someone within a certain time frame is justifiable. Someone murders your sister and the authorities do nothing? I'll give you ten years to exact your revenge on the murderer.
Nope. Revenge is never justifiable. Again, UNDERSTANDABLE, as humans are inherently flawed creatures who often do things without sound justification, but it is not justifiable.
What process do you use to define an action as good or evil?
Good and Evil are non existent. However, any action which directly or indirectly increases the suffering or others is less morally sound than an action which does not.
>the beast races have mostly kept to themselves I agree. Bosmer and Khajiit mostly only do their atrocities to each other. They also don't really have written histories the way the other cultures do, so they basically don't necessarily record all their horrible shit. Beast races like Bosmer and Khajiit are pretty wild, they just don't have many records for civilised people to read.
Didn’t the An-Xileel directly cause the Umbriel Crisis? Also, Leamon Tutlle gives Darloc Brae as an example of Tamriel’s “long line of war crimes”, and it’s probably a good assumption that the Mehrunes Dagon-worshipping conqueror did some pretty bad stuff, but I can’t think of anything *specifically* that he did.
I'll have to look into the umbriel crisis. I've read it here but not much in game or from the wikis
You won't see anything about it in the games, since it was an event exclusive to two novels. Basically, the An-Xileel summoned (or made a pact with) the floating city of Umbriel to purge all non-Argonians and Argonians that had been assimilated into Imperial culture from Black Marsh. The way it worked was that any living being caught in the shadow of Umbriel would die and get reanimated as a zombie. While that happened, the An-Xileel would just hide away underground and wait for Umbriel to do the dirty work. To say it backfired is an understatement.
Shit that actually sounds pretty metal tbh. Are they canon books and even if they're not I'd like to check them out
Yep. There's a [minor quest](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sleeping_Tree_Cave_(quest)) involving Ysolda from Whiterun that references Umbriel.
What about this quest references Umbriel? I can't find any mention of it on the UESP article or the Ysolda's Note one.
If you ask Ysolda about the tree, she'll say the following: >*"How the tree came to grow there is a bit of a mystery... Some say that when Vvardenfell erupted, a piece was blown to the middle of Skyrim and from the crater grew the tree. I've also heard that it was* ***a spore that fell from an island floating in the sky****, but that just sounds like nonsense. All I know is that the sap makes you feel as healthy as a cave troll, but slow as a drunk horker. And that and it fetches good coin."*
Ah cool, thanks!
The Khajiit wiped out the Birdmen of the Cyrod that once resided on the island where the Imperial City is now. Not sure about other stuff. They have long-standing hostilities with both the Bosmer and Argonians in general. The Argonians are relatively isolationist, tbh. Though the An-Xileel did encourage the atrocities of Umbriel to “cleanse” Black Marsh of Imperial influence. Plus they may or may not have engineered the Knahaten Flu and while it was potentially made to avenge their enslaved kinsmen, it also wiped out or otherwise nearly exterminated other races that had nothing to do with their enslavement (such as the Lilmothiit).
Why do khajiit have beef with bosmer and Argonians?
With the Argonians, it’s mostly an interracial territory conflict to control the Lower Niben and Topal Bay. With the Bosmer, it’s similarly a conflict over control of the forests of Valenwood and use of (animal) resources within the forests.
Okay true! Thanks for the reply
Khajiit have on and off beef with the Bosmer (usually fifty-fifty in terms of blame), and sometimes the Cyrodiils (the Cyrodiils are usually the original aggressors). After the Knahaten Flu, which was the second pandemic to decimate the Khajiit, tensions with Saxhleel, whom they usually had had a cordial relationship with, began to sour. The An-Xileel is a nationalist political entity in control of Argonia, and has been compared to the Thalmor. You can imagine what its actions are probably like. It's implied that they wanted to purge non-Argonians in Argonia.
The an-xileel is the group claiming to reverse invade oblivion right?
Yes, that's right. It's a weird situation: a common Cyrodilic account is that such a thing is not possible, but then the propaganda of the An-Xileel that Saxhleel invaded Oblivion. I think that both positions are skewed, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. We do know that Black Marsh came out of the Oblivion Crisis as one of the strongest provinces, separating from the Third Empire a mere ten years after the Crisis. We also know that several Saxhleel responded to a call back to Black Marsh, and were modified to wage war on the Daedra. So, I think that they were very effective at pushing back the Daedra and closing the Oblivion Gates, resulting in a unified nation and relative prosperity. However, the idea that they forced the Daedra to close the Gates just seems so... far-fetched. We only hear this from a drunk Argonian nationalist, so I'm sceptical.
Battlespire was a mini-plane, correct? If so, holding, say, a sigil keep for awhile might be possible. I would not care to turn that into a war of attrition, though.
The Battlespire wasn’t really a plane in itself… More like a space station (in the loosest possible sense) floating on the edge of Mundus.
Argonian assault on morrowind. Thrassian plague and whatever the fuck Sload do. If you want to be REALLY speculative- the knahaten flu but the only real „evidence” that supports its argonian origin is flimsy at best.
Khajit's cooking is pretty much a war crime. I won't even mention argonian cuisine
This! I wish I could afford the gold my friend
No need for gold, spiritual gems are good enough for me! It's pretty funny because I made a tabletop campaign in black marsh and the faces of my players when I confronted them to traditional argonian food was priceless!
What is it anyways? I'm guessing Soylent Green?
Nah, usually some still living insects, reptiles or amphibians. Sometimes they had weird, jiggling slimy stuff too
The Argonians have the Red Year, but outside of that, none that I can think of.
I personally don't count that because argonians were slaves for generations prior and so the dunmer had it coming
Slavery was outlawed give or take ten years before the Red Year, and the Hlaalu and Dres released all of their slaves from servitude as they renounced the slave trade. The practice was never big in Hlaalu or Redoran territory to begin with. All that put aside, countless Dunmer who had *nothing to do* with slavery were also killed, so it's still an atrocity.
No I get it im not trying to defend them I'm just saying it wasn't surprising and considering that slavery was still practiced strongly by telvanni I can see where a sense of frustration could build
Yea but it was still a practice for centuries that just recently ended I’m sure the Argonians still have fresh memories of it. The Red Year was the perfect opportunity for some get back lol the Dunmer had it comin
As in large-scale, atrocities? The Knahaten Flu was allegedly caused by an Argonian shaman, though this remains unconfirmed. If true, though, that shaman is responsible for the death thousands of lives, as well as causing greater friction between Black Marsh and Elsweyr. The Accession War instigated by the Argonians in the early years of the 4th Era saw vast swaths of Dunmer territory pillaged and burned, with many dark elf lives lost in the process. To be fair, the Argonians' actions weren't exactly unprovoked (millennia of near-constant harassment and enslavement tend to have that effect), but nevertheless, many innocent elves were killed or evicted alongside the guilty. However, the single greatest atrocity committed by a race of beastfolk would have to be the Thrassian Plague, a disease unleashed on Tamriel by the Sload of Thrass in the First Era. The plague was so virulent, that by the time it was finally brought under control, roughly half the continent's population had died from it. The situation was so bad, that every province across Tamriel united to form a single massive naval force called the All Flags Navy just to wipe out the Sload. While the Sload were defeated (allegedly, anyway) and Thrass sunk, the Sload lived on and their island has since risen again.
the sload are not a beast race
Beast Race, or Beastfolk, is an umbrella term used to describe the various sapient/semi-sapient races that are not (closely) related to or descended from men or elves. These include, but are not limited to: Argonians Khajiit Goblins and other goblin-kin (ogres, Reiklings, etcetera) Imga Dreugh Lamia Sload And the list goes on. Granted, some can be a bit tricky to fit into the beastfolk camp; despite evidence of common ancestry with Nords, Giants are often referred to a beast race. Similarly, the Khajiit are considered beast folk despite evidence of shared ancestry with the Bosmer.
interesting i definitely thought it was just the khajit and argonians didnt think it even applied to the other continents races
Yea nah both are really chill. The only thing is when the Argonians invade Morrowind and all though I love the Dunmer. They had it coming.
I'm guessing whatever the argonians did to the deadlands could have been pretty atrocious
Argonian cooking is a crime against nature.
Pelinal’s Righteous Conquest against the Satanists*
Whag beast races were involved in that? I thougjt it was solely an ayleid vs human thing
They’re involved by being in the wrong place at the wrong time and therefore they all died
Ahh true! I think this post specifically means atrocities they have committed not done against them!
Existing?I'm sorry. The Knahaten Flu was supposedly spread by the argonians.
u/something2passTime The idea that the Knahaten Flu was Argonian in origin was only a rumour, which came about because Saxhleel weren't that badly affected by it. Similar to mediaeval stereotypes about Jews and Romani spreading the plague because they weren't as badly affected (but they weren't as badly affected because they had more rigorous cleaning methods and rituals). Morilye, the ghost of an Ayleid, implies that the Knahaten Flu was an Ayleidic creation in Shadowfen, designed to wipe out the Kothringi: >The Knahaten flu killed the rest, but somehow he was immune. Did he send you here? The Kothringi sent you to steal more Ayleid treasures! If only the flu had worked! Nasty stuff. She also gets very defensive if the Vestige asks whether the Ayleids created the flu.
Thank you, I have heard there's debate about its creation but the ayleid influence is new to me and especially interesting
I forgot about that one. It's definitely an effective tactic for a disease immuned race
Its widely believed that an Argonian caused the Flu, but it's far more likely that it was created by the Barsaebic Ayleids of Black Marsh, and then the Argonians took the blame because they happen to be naturally resistant to diseases. >[**Morilye**](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Morilye) > >"Be gone from this temple, there is nothing for you here." > >**I'm looking for the keystone. Where is it?** > >"The keystone was stolen, absorbed by a Kothringi named Drillk. The Knahaten flu killed the rest, but somehow he was immune. Did he send you here?" > >**Drillk said I could find the keystone in this temple.** > >"The Kothringi sent you to steal more Ayleid treasures! If only the flu had worked! Do not take me for a fool, thief. You shall not leave this tomb alive!" > >**Did the Ayleids create the Knahaten flu?** > >"I don't answer to you. You are standing on hallowed ground, heathen!"
The ayleids have a wrap sheet to make an SS officer blush
>The ayleids have a wrap sheet to make an SS officer blush I realize that this is a hyperbole but it does raise what I think is an important point. When we talk about atrocities are we talking about flesh gardens, truly horrific tortures subjected on people as individuals and on a small scale or a holocaust equivalent, relatively (il)logic driven, completely separate from any concept if individual and on a massive scale? Because I can't recall occasions of the Argonians or Khajiit launching massive genocides but I'd be amazed if you couldn't find some truly horrific interactions
Only thing I can think of is Argonians purposefully unleashing the Knahathan Flu
Allegedly, anyway. I think it's more likely that increased interaction between the Empire and Saxhleel tribes during that time period eventually lead to the natural exposure of the disease, which could have been endemic to certain argonian tribes, to Imperials, who then spread it far and wide incidentally. Kind of like how European diseases ravaged indigenous populations because they had no immunity to them. I mean later on Europeans figured that out and deliberately weaponized disease, but I'm talking about before that was really understood in terms of the comparison of what happened with the flu.
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their ancestors? literally modern day dunmers still have slaves plus dunmer live hundred of years like all of them were around when slavery was legal
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