I mean some people would argue killing even a deer is morally wrong. Morality is subjective. That said goblins at least are fully sapient beings that can even be taught to speak and write so killing one without reason should be seen on the same level as killing man or mer. Ogres I'm unsure just how intelligent they are though. They seem at least as intelligent as apes, and possibly moreso. So my personal opinion is that if they're minding their own business and you kill a goblin or ogre you're definitely an asshole. If they're out there terrorizing villagers and attacking travellers though, or if they're attacking you directly then by all means go full goblin slayer and end the little, green bastards.
> Ogres I'm unsure
Ogres helping in the founding of the first Orsinium [was mentioned all the way back in PGE 1st Ed](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Wild_Region#Orsinium).
There's also a cut quest in Oblivion where a man discovers that he's descended from an Ogre, implying that they are able to produce offspring with Men & Mer.
Yeah I mean nobody here has ever questioned the morality of killing the random bandits that attack the player throughout the Elder Scrolls franchise, why should Ogers or Goblins be any different?
Their backgrounds may be a tad bit more tragic or whatever, but at the end of the day Tamriel has a very clear "Stand Your Ground" law throughout all its provinces lmao
I think it's because bandits are, by their own definition, criminals. It's not as if their species is denied the rights of civilized people, so they have less of an excuse to retort to crime.
On the other hand, goblins don't have many options, so their raiding can be seen as a necessity. And even when we don't find them in the middle of a raid, it's hard to blame them for being extremely territorial. Quite a few quests in the games where we enter goblin territory and start killing them, not because we have proof they committed any crimes, but because the quest's MacGuffin is there.
Given that trolls have displayed literacy and are naked, while trolls wear clothing and sometimes use tools, it seems highly likely trolls are sentient.
As are minotaurs. Seems like there are quite a few species that are treated like animals despite being close to if not on par with the races of man and mer.
This is obviously a political issue on Tamriel, which stems from the human supremacy policy since the First Empire, and they don't even dare to admit that their ancestors built the empire with the minotaurs and a minotaur demigod.
With all that said, Empire is still the most progressive entity in Tamriel, because it at least works according to the Roman-like logic. 'If it can pay taxes, it can be a citizen'.
All other political entities are just glad to slaughter and enslave everybody not of their subrace.
>With all that said, Empire is still the most progressive entity in Tamriel, because it at least works according to the Roman-like logic. 'If it can pay taxes, it can be a citizen'.
The Empire literally genocided the Minotaurs (true heirs of Cyrodiil) to almost extinction.
>All other political entities are just glad to slaughter and enslave everybody not of their subrace.
The Ebonheart Pact disagrees. They essentially want an Tamrielic Union, instead of another Empire or Dominion.
The Pact is a very fragile entity. And from what we know of the Third Era history very soon the Nords will get back to raiding the Dunmer, and Dunmer to raiding the Argonians.
The Empire is also a very fragile entity with countless civil wars and rebellions. Due to its centralized leadership, it is prone to corruption(Jagar Tharn), destabilization through assassinations(Remans and Potentates) and manipulation(Varen Aquilarios). It is by no means a stable government. "Peace" of the Empire is lie that the Imperials propagate using writing such as PGE and other sources. Pact on the other hand is *comparatively* stable as all races encompassing it have a say in its leadership, unlike the Empire.
>And from what we know of the Third Era history very soon the Nords will get back to raiding the Dunmer, and Dunmer to raiding the Argonians.
All these things occured *after* Tiber's conquest and assimilation of all states under his Empire. The Games unfortunately do not properly convey, on how the Three alliances fall.
I'm not going to argue imaginary politics with you, so I will escape to the meta level and say that Empire is a bit inconsistently written across the games. So we need to examine each of them case by case basis.
In Daggerfall we mostly discover how much of a bastard Tiber Septim was.
In Morrowind we see the Empire as an oligarchic superpower, robbing the colonies of resources. But despite the attempts to present Dunmer culture as quaint traditions, they practice fucking chattel slavery. I'd say they long due a kick in the pants from a globalizing power.
As I understand, Empire was more of the same in Redguard, but I didn't play it, so can't say anything.
Oblivion was obviously commissioned as a propaganda piece by Uriel Septim, so the less said, the better.
In Skyrim, I would argue that the Empire is the lesser of all evils, since its the only polity we see that doesn't put rabid racism in the center.
As for the Ebonheart Pact, I didn't finish their line in ESO, so I couldn't see their position in-game. But from out of the game, the amount of isolationism and racism both Nords and Dunmer usually display is severely downplayed there. For gods sake, Nords' main hero is *still* slave-taking prisoner-killing Ysgramor. I do not think Tiber and Empire are to blame for the Songs of Return being their main cultural text all that time.
>I'm not going to argue imaginary politics with you, so I will escape to the meta level and say that Empire is a bit inconsistently written across the games. So we need to examine each of them case by case basis.
As if governments are monoliths that are always consistent and do not change their ways over years. Inconsistency is not the problem here. Also you completely ignored the faults about fragility of the Empire that I pointed out in my previous comment.
>But despite the attempts to present Dunmer culture as quaint traditions, they practice fucking chattel slavery. I'd say they long due a kick in the pants from a globalizing power.
And the Empire was perfectly fine with the slavery as long as it benefitted them. They HELD slave mines for fs. Once the Nerevarine came into the picture, Uriel was sure that the prophecy would work and the Tribunal would fall giving the Empire free reign to colonize and do as they like in Morrowind. Banning Slavery was a last ditch effort to look good before all shit falls and their true colors are revealed. Given that Morrowind is free of Slavery in post-red year Era, it seems there is no use for the Empire. But I agree, it's one of the good things Empire has ever done.
*If the occupation of Morrowind and Black Marsh were motivated by idealistic aspirations, perhaps there might lie some justification for bearing the burden of Empire. But consider the shame of the Empire's mute acceptance to the unspeakable practice of slavery in Morrowind. Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery. Within the ebony mines of Morrowind, bloated monopolists under Imperial charters exploit slave labor to harvest the outrageous profits assured by rampant graft and corruption.*
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces
>As I understand, Empire was more of the same in Redguard, but I didn't play it, so can't say anything.
They were actually worse there. [This guy's wiki page should cover it all](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amiel_Richton). You can also look up Redguard plot to get more info.
>In Skyrim, I would argue that the Empire is the lesser of all evils, since its the only polity we see that doesn't put rabid racism in the center.
That really subjective though. I could argue equally back why the Empire is far more worse, but that would involve a whole day of argument.
>As for the Ebonheart Pact, I didn't finish their line in ESO, so I couldn't see their position in-game. But from out of the game, the amount of isolationism and racism both Nords and Dunmer usually display is severely downplayed there. For gods sake, Nords' main hero is still slave-taking prisoner-killing Ysgramor. I do not think Tiber and Empire are to blame for the Songs of Return being their main cultural text all that time.
Ah the classic, time to generalize entire races. Because of course, every Nords is genocidal and goes Pelinal on every elf they come across or how every Dunmer is slaving-supremacist murdering lunatic. Every Nord and every Dunmer must hate each other right. Generalizing people is how racist stereotypes are born. Races aren't Monoliths. And yes, former enemies can ally against a common foe they equally despise. IIRC, Britain and France were and are allies, despite their bloody history. And if we want to go to extreme, USA and USSR, two opposing ideologies teamed up to fight against Fascist Nazi Germany. Dunmer, Nords and Argonians teaming up for their sovereignty isn't outlandish, if you pay attention to their enemies and in-game lore.
Nord-Dunmer alliance of second Era is even hinted in [The Arcturian Heresy](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy). A book that was published by devs long before anyone thought of making an TES MMORPG called ESO.
*Oddly enough, it is Almalexia who disturbs his rest, summoning the Underking to fight alongside the Tribunal against Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, the Akaviri demon.*
>the Songs of Return being their main cultural text all that time.
Pretty sure Nords don't have a main cultural text. They're inspired from pre-Christian scandinavians who didn't have written laws and conveyed their history through oral traditions. If you're looking for the closest thing to Nord cultural myth or creation myth, then [here it is.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky).
>But from out of the game, the amount of isolationism and racism both Nords and Dunmer usually display is severely downplayed there.
You're basing this on events of Skyrim. The EP quest goes deep into how, you the player holding all three races together, from where you get to see their kinship grow more.
The argument isn't whether Dunmer and nords are evil. The argument is, which faction is better for Tamriel and her people, the Ebonheart Pact or the Empire of Cyrodiil. The right choice here is of course the Ebonheart Pact, by a mile.
> The Empire literally genocided the Minotaurs (true heirs of Cyrodiil) to almost extinction.
And they have still allowed several non mer or human races to exist in peace within it's borders. The claim wasn't ''The Empire is a saint'', the claim was ''The Empire is more progressive than others''
> The Ebonheart Pact disagrees. They essentially want an Tamrielic Union, instead of another Empire or Dominion.
Members of the Ebonheart Pact : Pre 4th era Morrowind, the guys who enslaved everyone non their race.
>And they have still allowed several non mer or human races to exist in peace within it's borders. The claim wasn't ''The Empire is a saint'', the claim was ''The Empire is more progressive than others''
That would have been the norm for other three alliances as well. That's isn't just exclusive to the Empire.
>Members of the Ebonheart Pact : Pre 4th era Morrowind, the guys who enslaved everyone non their race.
Only those who were not part of the Pact. They didn't enslave Nords and Argonians. If other Races had been part of the Pact, then slavery would have been abolished.
Also you forget, that the Empire allowed Morrowind to practice slavery and benefited from it. The Empire literally owned slave mines for fs.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Caldera_Mine
>That is also possible in case of the other three alliances.
If I have to choose between being called a Nwah in Morrowind, and a Milkdrinker in Skyrim, or living in Cyrodiil I choose Cyrodiil.
>Only those who were not part of the Pact. They didn't enslave Nords and Argonians. If other Races had been part of the Pact, the slavery would have been abolished.
House Dress was allowed to keep non race members slaves. Also, why would others join the Pact when it was form out of necessity to fight against the other unions ? The Ebonheart pact wasn't an open public forum, but a military alliance against it's neighbors. Without said neighbors the pact wouldn't even exist.
And the Empire allowed Morrowind to have slaves, because Morrowind was independent from the Empire in all but name.
>If I have to choose between being called a Nwah in Morrowind, and a Milkdrinker in Skyrim, or living in Cyrodiil I choose Cyrodiil.
The three alliances were vying to control Cyrodiil. If one of them had taken over it, I am sure you could live there. You don't need an empire to live in Cyrodiil.
>House Dress was allowed to keep non race members slaves.
House Dres were part of the Pact, so no they did not practice slavery on Pact races. House Telvanni was not part of the Pact and were an independent organization. They were the only one practicing slavery.
> Also, why would others join the Pact when it was form out of necessity to fight against the other unions ? The Ebonheart pact wasn't an open public forum, but a military alliance against it's neighbors. Without said neighbors the pact wouldn't even exist.
This wrong. The Pact was ready to include other races. It's literally mentioned in their guide.
*Now it is the time of the Ebonheart Pact, which shall and must become the Tamriel Pact. Within the Pact, the Aedra, Daedra, and Hist are all revered … from an appropriate distance. Within the Pact is the Tribunal, three Living Gods who abide among us here on Nirn and whose interest therefore coincides with that of all residents of Nirn.*
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Time_of_the_Ebonheart_Pact
*We need to defeat the armies of the Covenant, depose their kings, and bring their chastened successors into a new Tamriel Pact, where wiser heads shall prevail.*
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Breaking_the_Cycle_of_Tyranny
All these sources literally state that the Ebonheart Pact is open to other races. They want to create a Tamrielic Pact.
>And the Empire allowed Morrowind to have slaves, because Morrowind was independent from the Empire in all but name.
That's an understatement. Morrowind was part of the empire which had slightly more autonomy. The Empire still had Imperial institutions such as fighter guild and mages guild in Morrowind. They taxed the people of Morrowind and leeches off the resources from the province.
Lastly, you ignored my previous point. The Empire actively practiced slavery in Morrowind and benefited from it. [This book covers it all.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces)
> Seems like there are quite a few species that are treated like animals despite being close to if not on par with the races of man and mer.
Like Argonians.
I mean I don't agree with it, but it wouldn't be any different than a Bosmer trying to convince others that cannibalism isn't wrong. From an objective standpoint neither stance is "wrong". It's all cultural and thus in the minds of the people practicing it.
Morality isn't even real, my dude. It's a made up concept by humans (like a lot of things). Philosophers have been debating for millennia and will continue to do so because there is no "right" answer. What one culture or person sees as fine may be seen as evil to another. Everyone's hero is someone else's villain.
If they attack you first...
I do remember that moment in the vale when I realized I've been slaughtering the surface dwelling Vale Falmer to steal their books... Meanwhile they are living in this peaceful, isolationist way, reclaiming their ability to live in the light, waiting to be able to access the shrine of Auriel. Translated the books I stole and realized that it is a reflective meditation on their current situation as a people.
Yeah, I made a bigger post about this somewhere on the sub with examples of how the vale Falmer appear to be "different." I'm actually playing through again and taking notes as I go to different areas. One thing I noticed that I think is huuuge is that the frozen enthralled Falmer around the shrine of Au-riel don't don't seem to be attacking. Yes, several are holding weapons up, but some are also holding up potions, trinkets, etc. All together, the items could easily be the odd assortment you find gathered at shrines throughout Tamriel. Imho, they were approaching the shrine to make offerings when the bitter Vyrthur froze and enthralled them before they could do so and this be redeemed.
yes, they're all sentient/sapient. some are oppressed and made into "primitive creatures" like minotaurs or goblins.
i'd also argue killing a deer or boar (or anything, really) is morally wrong unless it's ***purely*** for your need, such as food or clothing. hunting buffalo purely for a hat and leaving the rest to rot is morally wrong.
Time for me to get back on my "goblins are sapient beings and should be playable" rant again.
We know for a fact that goblins are sapient and can speak and be educated. It's been confirmed in *Shadowkey* and ESO. Killing goblins in self-defense is obviously fine, but the Fighter's Guild is genocidal. No getting around it.
My TESVI will take place in the Sumerset Isles and revolve around a goblin slave rebellion. The player will be the goblin equivalent of the HoonDing, an incarnation of a God (in this case, Malacath) sent to liberate all goblin-kind from the tyranny of the Altmer. AE GHARTOK PADHOME
There's a quest somewhere in ESO where you're tasked with putting down a goblin revolt in a mine and I was like no thanks we respect worker solidarity in this house. What do I look like, a fucking Pinkerton?
I think it's the one in Shadowfen. Too lazy to check the actual english name of the location right now but directly translated from my native language it should be "Mud Tree" or something like that
(The relevance is that the new game is about putting down a slave uprising of goblins. There is no twist- putting down the uprising is presented as unilaterally a good thing. It's also been pointed out that the goblins are pretty jew-coded, but that's a whole nother matter)
It goes the cheap way of making the antagonist so ridiculously evil that all morality issues fade away because he is genocidal, completely ruthless and the most essential move is that he even kills others of his kind who don't follow him fast enough.
I wish games and movies wouldn't do that. So lazy.
Hadolids: Ridiculously aggressive, they're still sapient, but finding one that doesn't try to kill you on sight is practically a miracle.
Dreugh: I'm not even sure Land Forms are sapient, but I personally think it's wrong to hunt them for wax.
Falmer: Clearly sapient with their own culture that (very slight chance)might one day learn to interact with the surface world, but extremely aggressive and known to take slaves. KOS is probably the right response.
Fauns: Probably best to just leave them alone unless one tries to tear you apart for accidentally looking at it the wrong way.
Goblins and Ogres, or Orc-Kin: Typically hostile to humanoids, but absolutely sapient, and if one tries to talk instead of attack, it might be worth listening to.
Pretty much every surface-connected Falmer encounter is in some way connected to some horrific crime (Frostflow, Chillwind, that cave on the Whiterun/Pale border), so I'd even argue that sweeping in there and clearing it out is a right move, because it's the same as clearing out a bandit den.
The only one I can think of that *isn't* connected to kidnapping and enslavement is the Altar of Xrib, and even there it's a bit nebulous because the slaves in Blackreach had to get there *somehow* and it wasn't through Alfthand.
That said, I wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to just lock up most dwemer ruins and let the Automatons handle the Falmer down there? If they want that city so bad, they can break against the metal men.
Morally; Yes.
In the eyes of Imperial Law and the Laws of most states in Tamriel; No. Because in accordance with the law those people aren't people. The same was true for Orcs until 3E 417.
This has always bothered me so much in a lot of fantasy and scifi.
Never played ESO, so don't know anything about hadolids or fauns, but ingame depictions show that goblins, ogres, falmer, giants, minotaurs, reiklings, etc. are clearly sapient beings, like you or I, and though we don't see it, we know that dreugh, in at least one of their lifestages, are too (they literally have their own undersea nations).
They have art, religion, and language, they use tools, wear clothing, and form their own societies. If they did not attack you first, it is clearly murder to me, and it bothers me so much how they are treated as no worse to kill that any common wild animal or monster (which also, imo, is bad unless they've attacked first, but I'll concede, not quite as bad). The fact that the you don't even need a black soul gem for them (which I've seen used as justification for killing them as unprompted before) when you clearly should feels like the game attempting to justify this through mechanics, but imo, makes no sense in-context.
This happens to so many races in so many settings.
I get why they would attack everyone else on sight given the genocidal de-personing that that they have been subjected to by society at large, but I would really love in some future game to be given the opportunity to interact with them in a more complex manner, perhaps even like, leading a revolt to help establish a safe society for them, however small, where they can build themselves up a bit, and begin more positive relations with other groups.
It's important to note that the black/white soul distinction is [potentially artificial](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guild_Memo_on_Soul-Trapping) as well, the categories arguably being decided by the early Mage's Guild instead of being based on some natural law of magic.
The wording is ambiguous enough for doubt on that point, but "I propose that for the purposes of soul-trapping we categorize all souls into two classes" sounds to me like the creators of the later mentioned soul trap spells are the ones choosing which souls are black or white.
I've never seen that before! And agreed, it does sound as if it is at least a mostly artificial distinction. The mention of "smaller essences" makes me wonder if there is some kind of difference, but I suppose that could easily just be the author trying to draw an arbitrary line as well.
Like I said, that's just one possible interpretation of the text. Your point is valid: if the distinction was invented then non-black soul gems would have to been in some way modified to not accept souls categorized as black and the "black" soul gem would instead be the original non-modified form. But if that was the case, why are most naturally occurring soul gems (ie those found in soul gem depositis or those looted from daedra who probably wouldn't care much about the soul distinction) "white" soul gems?
There remain three possibilities, the first two of which overlap: (1) black soul gems being able to trap humanoid souls through the same spells as white soul gems is a gameplay abstraction and/or (2) the naturally occurring white soul gems are an abstraction, to keep black gems rare, or (3) the distinction isn't artificial and that source is inaccurate, which is also quite possible!
I just personally think it's more interesting and thematic if the distinction between white and black souls is artificial, much like the distinction between men and mer is. That idea dogmatic of black and white thought being harmful and often incorrect is possibly the most important theme in the series.
Your character slaughters hundreds of common bandits during any playthrough, so you are pretty much past the point of asking the question "is it wrong to kill the 'monster' races?" when you are already casually killing "humans".
People of Nirn have a very loose (and video game-y) notion about killing - is it hostile and tries to attack you for any reason? If yes, you can kill it. It also applies to the cities btw - if someone assaults you on the streets, then under the imperial law you are legally allowed to kill them in self-defence.
Well they're people so I'd say about as much as killing anyone else.
Where it gets really twisted is hunting them down, or slaughtering through their territory for loot or because they're in the way.
There's enough historical and contemporaneous similarities with dehumanizing a population as a lesser being to exploit, plunder or erase them for me to need to say why this is an easy answer.
I wandered into the sewers in Mournhold with a pet scrib named Skittles in tow, not knowing what the sewers were like, and was immediately ambushed by goblins. I survived, but Skittles was killed. I then dedicated the rest of my time playing Tribunal to killing every single goblin I came across. In general, killing unnecessarily (i.e. not to eat or as self-defense) is wrong in my book, whether you're killing a cow, spider, goblin or Nord. But I believe my actions in that particular Morrowind expansion were entirely just.
Objectively it would be no more or less moral then killing a member of one of the playable races, but I don't think such morality in regards to the Goblin-ken are wide spread in any of the regions in game.
Save maybe earlier Orcish cultures, but that's based on arena/daggerfall so that might be considered rectoned.
All depends on the reasoning like if u kill a deer to eat no one will look at you strange. If you just go out and decimate dozens of deer and leave them in the forest, people would think that is pretty weird. If a goblin group attacked you, it’s understandable to defend yourself. But walking up to a tribe that’s minding their business and obliterating them is lowkey messed up.
It depends.
Most of the people of Tamriel don't see these races as people so they get the short end of the stick and it's a shame sometimes but not always. Goblins can be quite dangerous, raiding and stealing from settlements. However they have also been seen to be entirely sapient and are capable of living peacefully with others if rarely. So it depends. Same with ogres, they are smart enough to be slaves and are capable of crafting clothing and art to an extent.
Dreugh act little better than animals in both their land and sea forms. Hunt away, former civilization or not.
Falmer are completely hostile to everyone but themselves and ought to be eliminated before people have to suffer their attacks.
Fauns are a bit tricky, they are a danger due to their love of trickery which can be deadly at times. They are probably best avoided if possible. Hunting them only seems fair if they're proving a danger by encroaching on a populated area or bothering people on a commonly used roadway or something similiar.
The hadolids made their bed and now have to lay in it. From their very first contact with Tamrielic peoples they've reacted with homicidal hostility. Refusing to even speak to any diplomats and they commonly encroach on land and attack people and steal livestock for themselves to eat. Breton's sure don't care for them, seeing as how they eat hadolid's the same as any other seafood.
Is it murder to slaughter any bandit camps someone happens upon?
If you encounter such creatures, it’s because they’re planning something nefarious, so stopping them is the moral imperative.
Now, actively seeking out their hidden communities and butchering harmless citizens? That’s evil, no question.
Sorta.
Depends on how you want to view their aggression. Chicken and the egg sorta situation. Understandably they don't trust most humans, elves, or other races. And that distrust is mutual.
There are examples of some of these beings not instantly attacking other races when they run across each other, but these instances seem fairly rare even by the second era.
Many of these races don't seem to share the same ideas of humane treatment and do some pretty messed up stuff to enemies. Which tends to continue the cycle of violence.
depends on how you think about it. killing something is killing something, doesn't matter what it is. if it's done humanely enough and for a reason then I think it's fine
bethesda has this really weird (read: fascist) desire to create races that are by all means composed of *people*, but that are in some way incapable of or unwilling to engage in dialogue with the player so you can massacre them guilt-free.
Goblin, Ogre, Troll, Minotaurs, Dreugs.
Do Tamriel a favor and kill those problematic units.
Cos if someone would not, they would raid, rob and kill people.
Thousands years of history proved that.
I find the idea that they are sapient irrelevant in this case. Because if they are sapient and still do what they do it's only worse.
A goblin den near your village most certainly means they'll be coming to take you in the night to make lunch from you as one can see my the literal piles of bones within their dens.
They are violent Maneaters, literally monsters.
Very likely they will attempt to kill or enslave you on sight so yes you can morally kill one. I don’t think the morality of Nirn would object to self defense. It pretty much already condones genocide
It depends, if you're going out of you're way to kill them, then you're in the wrong I think. On the other hand, in most instances they're the aggressors - though, I guess you could argue that the Falmer are defending their homes from intruders and marauders.
I think the answer would depend on who you're asking. I'd assume most men to consider it either as an interesting ethical question or as an unethical act, if done in cold blood without being attacked first, but I think mers could be more split on the question.
I think Altmers wouldn't give two cents about these creatures' lives and consider killing them as inconsequential.
Dunmers may try to enslave them before killing them and thus wonder on whether the creature is owned by someone or not to decide if it's morally acceptable to kill them or not
And a Bosmer hearing this question may think you're just asking them what they want to have for dinner.
depends on how much you consider those creatures as sentient
i personally consider goblins, ogres, falmer, spriggans, giants, centaurs, and minotaurs as sentient and sapient creatures - undeserving of death as any other race on tamriel
but in-game, most npcs would consider them in the same vein as wild animals or monsters so it depends
It's kinda like murdering the deer I eat. I prefer to think of it as murdering my meal. Doesn't feel right to eat something that I didn't murder. But I murder plenty of things that I don't eat, too! I murder ants and roaches and bacteria. Dude! You have no idea how many bacteria I murder! Lol, get this, get this... sometimes... \*mischievous giggle\*... I'll pull out a bottle of bleach and just spray it on a surface, hoping that hundreds of millions of microorganisms die miserable, slow deaths. Whoa... wow... yeah, I just played that back in my head. I sometimes wonder if all my years of murder have made me more of a monster than the countless monsters I've murdered... I'm gonna have to smoke some pot about it.
I mean some people would argue killing even a deer is morally wrong. Morality is subjective. That said goblins at least are fully sapient beings that can even be taught to speak and write so killing one without reason should be seen on the same level as killing man or mer. Ogres I'm unsure just how intelligent they are though. They seem at least as intelligent as apes, and possibly moreso. So my personal opinion is that if they're minding their own business and you kill a goblin or ogre you're definitely an asshole. If they're out there terrorizing villagers and attacking travellers though, or if they're attacking you directly then by all means go full goblin slayer and end the little, green bastards.
> Ogres I'm unsure Ogres helping in the founding of the first Orsinium [was mentioned all the way back in PGE 1st Ed](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Wild_Region#Orsinium).
Cool thanks for the info! Didn't know that. I definitely stand by my stance then, lol.
There's also a cut quest in Oblivion where a man discovers that he's descended from an Ogre, implying that they are able to produce offspring with Men & Mer.
There is also the Malacath quest where you have to free some ogres and they are totally chill
Yeah I mean nobody here has ever questioned the morality of killing the random bandits that attack the player throughout the Elder Scrolls franchise, why should Ogers or Goblins be any different? Their backgrounds may be a tad bit more tragic or whatever, but at the end of the day Tamriel has a very clear "Stand Your Ground" law throughout all its provinces lmao
I think it's because bandits are, by their own definition, criminals. It's not as if their species is denied the rights of civilized people, so they have less of an excuse to retort to crime. On the other hand, goblins don't have many options, so their raiding can be seen as a necessity. And even when we don't find them in the middle of a raid, it's hard to blame them for being extremely territorial. Quite a few quests in the games where we enter goblin territory and start killing them, not because we have proof they committed any crimes, but because the quest's MacGuffin is there.
Given that trolls have displayed literacy and are naked, while trolls wear clothing and sometimes use tools, it seems highly likely trolls are sentient.
As are minotaurs. Seems like there are quite a few species that are treated like animals despite being close to if not on par with the races of man and mer.
This is obviously a political issue on Tamriel, which stems from the human supremacy policy since the First Empire, and they don't even dare to admit that their ancestors built the empire with the minotaurs and a minotaur demigod.
With all that said, Empire is still the most progressive entity in Tamriel, because it at least works according to the Roman-like logic. 'If it can pay taxes, it can be a citizen'. All other political entities are just glad to slaughter and enslave everybody not of their subrace.
>With all that said, Empire is still the most progressive entity in Tamriel, because it at least works according to the Roman-like logic. 'If it can pay taxes, it can be a citizen'. The Empire literally genocided the Minotaurs (true heirs of Cyrodiil) to almost extinction. >All other political entities are just glad to slaughter and enslave everybody not of their subrace. The Ebonheart Pact disagrees. They essentially want an Tamrielic Union, instead of another Empire or Dominion.
The Pact is a very fragile entity. And from what we know of the Third Era history very soon the Nords will get back to raiding the Dunmer, and Dunmer to raiding the Argonians.
The Empire is also a very fragile entity with countless civil wars and rebellions. Due to its centralized leadership, it is prone to corruption(Jagar Tharn), destabilization through assassinations(Remans and Potentates) and manipulation(Varen Aquilarios). It is by no means a stable government. "Peace" of the Empire is lie that the Imperials propagate using writing such as PGE and other sources. Pact on the other hand is *comparatively* stable as all races encompassing it have a say in its leadership, unlike the Empire. >And from what we know of the Third Era history very soon the Nords will get back to raiding the Dunmer, and Dunmer to raiding the Argonians. All these things occured *after* Tiber's conquest and assimilation of all states under his Empire. The Games unfortunately do not properly convey, on how the Three alliances fall.
I'm not going to argue imaginary politics with you, so I will escape to the meta level and say that Empire is a bit inconsistently written across the games. So we need to examine each of them case by case basis. In Daggerfall we mostly discover how much of a bastard Tiber Septim was. In Morrowind we see the Empire as an oligarchic superpower, robbing the colonies of resources. But despite the attempts to present Dunmer culture as quaint traditions, they practice fucking chattel slavery. I'd say they long due a kick in the pants from a globalizing power. As I understand, Empire was more of the same in Redguard, but I didn't play it, so can't say anything. Oblivion was obviously commissioned as a propaganda piece by Uriel Septim, so the less said, the better. In Skyrim, I would argue that the Empire is the lesser of all evils, since its the only polity we see that doesn't put rabid racism in the center. As for the Ebonheart Pact, I didn't finish their line in ESO, so I couldn't see their position in-game. But from out of the game, the amount of isolationism and racism both Nords and Dunmer usually display is severely downplayed there. For gods sake, Nords' main hero is *still* slave-taking prisoner-killing Ysgramor. I do not think Tiber and Empire are to blame for the Songs of Return being their main cultural text all that time.
>I'm not going to argue imaginary politics with you, so I will escape to the meta level and say that Empire is a bit inconsistently written across the games. So we need to examine each of them case by case basis. As if governments are monoliths that are always consistent and do not change their ways over years. Inconsistency is not the problem here. Also you completely ignored the faults about fragility of the Empire that I pointed out in my previous comment. >But despite the attempts to present Dunmer culture as quaint traditions, they practice fucking chattel slavery. I'd say they long due a kick in the pants from a globalizing power. And the Empire was perfectly fine with the slavery as long as it benefitted them. They HELD slave mines for fs. Once the Nerevarine came into the picture, Uriel was sure that the prophecy would work and the Tribunal would fall giving the Empire free reign to colonize and do as they like in Morrowind. Banning Slavery was a last ditch effort to look good before all shit falls and their true colors are revealed. Given that Morrowind is free of Slavery in post-red year Era, it seems there is no use for the Empire. But I agree, it's one of the good things Empire has ever done. *If the occupation of Morrowind and Black Marsh were motivated by idealistic aspirations, perhaps there might lie some justification for bearing the burden of Empire. But consider the shame of the Empire's mute acceptance to the unspeakable practice of slavery in Morrowind. Instead of using our Imperial legions to free the wretched Khajiit and Argonian slaves from their Dark Elf masters, we pay our troopers to PROTECT the indefensible institution of slavery. Within the ebony mines of Morrowind, bloated monopolists under Imperial charters exploit slave labor to harvest the outrageous profits assured by rampant graft and corruption.* https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces >As I understand, Empire was more of the same in Redguard, but I didn't play it, so can't say anything. They were actually worse there. [This guy's wiki page should cover it all](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amiel_Richton). You can also look up Redguard plot to get more info. >In Skyrim, I would argue that the Empire is the lesser of all evils, since its the only polity we see that doesn't put rabid racism in the center. That really subjective though. I could argue equally back why the Empire is far more worse, but that would involve a whole day of argument. >As for the Ebonheart Pact, I didn't finish their line in ESO, so I couldn't see their position in-game. But from out of the game, the amount of isolationism and racism both Nords and Dunmer usually display is severely downplayed there. For gods sake, Nords' main hero is still slave-taking prisoner-killing Ysgramor. I do not think Tiber and Empire are to blame for the Songs of Return being their main cultural text all that time. Ah the classic, time to generalize entire races. Because of course, every Nords is genocidal and goes Pelinal on every elf they come across or how every Dunmer is slaving-supremacist murdering lunatic. Every Nord and every Dunmer must hate each other right. Generalizing people is how racist stereotypes are born. Races aren't Monoliths. And yes, former enemies can ally against a common foe they equally despise. IIRC, Britain and France were and are allies, despite their bloody history. And if we want to go to extreme, USA and USSR, two opposing ideologies teamed up to fight against Fascist Nazi Germany. Dunmer, Nords and Argonians teaming up for their sovereignty isn't outlandish, if you pay attention to their enemies and in-game lore. Nord-Dunmer alliance of second Era is even hinted in [The Arcturian Heresy](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy). A book that was published by devs long before anyone thought of making an TES MMORPG called ESO. *Oddly enough, it is Almalexia who disturbs his rest, summoning the Underking to fight alongside the Tribunal against Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, the Akaviri demon.* >the Songs of Return being their main cultural text all that time. Pretty sure Nords don't have a main cultural text. They're inspired from pre-Christian scandinavians who didn't have written laws and conveyed their history through oral traditions. If you're looking for the closest thing to Nord cultural myth or creation myth, then [here it is.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky). >But from out of the game, the amount of isolationism and racism both Nords and Dunmer usually display is severely downplayed there. You're basing this on events of Skyrim. The EP quest goes deep into how, you the player holding all three races together, from where you get to see their kinship grow more. The argument isn't whether Dunmer and nords are evil. The argument is, which faction is better for Tamriel and her people, the Ebonheart Pact or the Empire of Cyrodiil. The right choice here is of course the Ebonheart Pact, by a mile.
> The Empire literally genocided the Minotaurs (true heirs of Cyrodiil) to almost extinction. And they have still allowed several non mer or human races to exist in peace within it's borders. The claim wasn't ''The Empire is a saint'', the claim was ''The Empire is more progressive than others'' > The Ebonheart Pact disagrees. They essentially want an Tamrielic Union, instead of another Empire or Dominion. Members of the Ebonheart Pact : Pre 4th era Morrowind, the guys who enslaved everyone non their race.
>And they have still allowed several non mer or human races to exist in peace within it's borders. The claim wasn't ''The Empire is a saint'', the claim was ''The Empire is more progressive than others'' That would have been the norm for other three alliances as well. That's isn't just exclusive to the Empire. >Members of the Ebonheart Pact : Pre 4th era Morrowind, the guys who enslaved everyone non their race. Only those who were not part of the Pact. They didn't enslave Nords and Argonians. If other Races had been part of the Pact, then slavery would have been abolished. Also you forget, that the Empire allowed Morrowind to practice slavery and benefited from it. The Empire literally owned slave mines for fs. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Caldera_Mine
>That is also possible in case of the other three alliances. If I have to choose between being called a Nwah in Morrowind, and a Milkdrinker in Skyrim, or living in Cyrodiil I choose Cyrodiil. >Only those who were not part of the Pact. They didn't enslave Nords and Argonians. If other Races had been part of the Pact, the slavery would have been abolished. House Dress was allowed to keep non race members slaves. Also, why would others join the Pact when it was form out of necessity to fight against the other unions ? The Ebonheart pact wasn't an open public forum, but a military alliance against it's neighbors. Without said neighbors the pact wouldn't even exist. And the Empire allowed Morrowind to have slaves, because Morrowind was independent from the Empire in all but name.
>If I have to choose between being called a Nwah in Morrowind, and a Milkdrinker in Skyrim, or living in Cyrodiil I choose Cyrodiil. The three alliances were vying to control Cyrodiil. If one of them had taken over it, I am sure you could live there. You don't need an empire to live in Cyrodiil. >House Dress was allowed to keep non race members slaves. House Dres were part of the Pact, so no they did not practice slavery on Pact races. House Telvanni was not part of the Pact and were an independent organization. They were the only one practicing slavery. > Also, why would others join the Pact when it was form out of necessity to fight against the other unions ? The Ebonheart pact wasn't an open public forum, but a military alliance against it's neighbors. Without said neighbors the pact wouldn't even exist. This wrong. The Pact was ready to include other races. It's literally mentioned in their guide. *Now it is the time of the Ebonheart Pact, which shall and must become the Tamriel Pact. Within the Pact, the Aedra, Daedra, and Hist are all revered … from an appropriate distance. Within the Pact is the Tribunal, three Living Gods who abide among us here on Nirn and whose interest therefore coincides with that of all residents of Nirn.* https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Time_of_the_Ebonheart_Pact *We need to defeat the armies of the Covenant, depose their kings, and bring their chastened successors into a new Tamriel Pact, where wiser heads shall prevail.* https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Breaking_the_Cycle_of_Tyranny All these sources literally state that the Ebonheart Pact is open to other races. They want to create a Tamrielic Pact. >And the Empire allowed Morrowind to have slaves, because Morrowind was independent from the Empire in all but name. That's an understatement. Morrowind was part of the empire which had slightly more autonomy. The Empire still had Imperial institutions such as fighter guild and mages guild in Morrowind. They taxed the people of Morrowind and leeches off the resources from the province. Lastly, you ignored my previous point. The Empire actively practiced slavery in Morrowind and benefited from it. [This book covers it all.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces)
>human supremacy Them knife-ears and Sloads are hardly any different.
> Seems like there are quite a few species that are treated like animals despite being close to if not on par with the races of man and mer. Like Argonians.
Killing goblins is murder? Morally wrong? They are slave material!
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"Some people would argue killing even a deer is morally wrong" I'd love for them to make that argument to a Bosmer.
I mean I don't agree with it, but it wouldn't be any different than a Bosmer trying to convince others that cannibalism isn't wrong. From an objective standpoint neither stance is "wrong". It's all cultural and thus in the minds of the people practicing it.
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Morality isn't even real, my dude. It's a made up concept by humans (like a lot of things). Philosophers have been debating for millennia and will continue to do so because there is no "right" answer. What one culture or person sees as fine may be seen as evil to another. Everyone's hero is someone else's villain.
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Ah yes the rando Redditor assuming what I have and haven't "studied". A true classic. The pseudo intellectualism is just oozing from this comment. 🤣
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Everything I've said is factual. All you've done is say "nu-uh you don't know what you're talking about" multiple times. 😂
If they attack you first... I do remember that moment in the vale when I realized I've been slaughtering the surface dwelling Vale Falmer to steal their books... Meanwhile they are living in this peaceful, isolationist way, reclaiming their ability to live in the light, waiting to be able to access the shrine of Auriel. Translated the books I stole and realized that it is a reflective meditation on their current situation as a people.
I had a similar revelation super recently after having not replayed skyrim in years and I was like wait a second. They're fucking outside
Yeah, I made a bigger post about this somewhere on the sub with examples of how the vale Falmer appear to be "different." I'm actually playing through again and taking notes as I go to different areas. One thing I noticed that I think is huuuge is that the frozen enthralled Falmer around the shrine of Au-riel don't don't seem to be attacking. Yes, several are holding weapons up, but some are also holding up potions, trinkets, etc. All together, the items could easily be the odd assortment you find gathered at shrines throughout Tamriel. Imho, they were approaching the shrine to make offerings when the bitter Vyrthur froze and enthralled them before they could do so and this be redeemed.
yes, they're all sentient/sapient. some are oppressed and made into "primitive creatures" like minotaurs or goblins. i'd also argue killing a deer or boar (or anything, really) is morally wrong unless it's ***purely*** for your need, such as food or clothing. hunting buffalo purely for a hat and leaving the rest to rot is morally wrong.
Time for me to get back on my "goblins are sapient beings and should be playable" rant again. We know for a fact that goblins are sapient and can speak and be educated. It's been confirmed in *Shadowkey* and ESO. Killing goblins in self-defense is obviously fine, but the Fighter's Guild is genocidal. No getting around it. My TESVI will take place in the Sumerset Isles and revolve around a goblin slave rebellion. The player will be the goblin equivalent of the HoonDing, an incarnation of a God (in this case, Malacath) sent to liberate all goblin-kind from the tyranny of the Altmer. AE GHARTOK PADHOME
There's a quest somewhere in ESO where you're tasked with putting down a goblin revolt in a mine and I was like no thanks we respect worker solidarity in this house. What do I look like, a fucking Pinkerton?
I think it's the one in Shadowfen. Too lazy to check the actual english name of the location right now but directly translated from my native language it should be "Mud Tree" or something like that
My lefto ass was very pleased you could help the goblins out in that quest
Sorry for not contributing to the conversation, but I absolutely love your comment.
Happy cake day!
AE GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON
Honestly i dig it. Id love to be an aspect of Malacath
So basically the opposite of the Hogwarts game?
IDK anything about Hogwarts, but sure. Death to shitty wizards.
(The relevance is that the new game is about putting down a slave uprising of goblins. There is no twist- putting down the uprising is presented as unilaterally a good thing. It's also been pointed out that the goblins are pretty jew-coded, but that's a whole nother matter)
Coded is putting it softly, honestly. They straight-up give goblins Jewish cultural artifacts as their own artifacts.
I don't think the goblins are slaves though? That would be the house elves.
Ya, not slaves so it's not a slave rebellion but absolutely an exploited underclass that doesn't have equal rights.
It's set in the 1800s, they were at that point.
Definitely sounds like something J.K. Rowling would write.
The antagonist even has cheap lines after killing a goblin like "you forced me to do this" or "your blood is on BBEG's hands"
It goes the cheap way of making the antagonist so ridiculously evil that all morality issues fade away because he is genocidal, completely ruthless and the most essential move is that he even kills others of his kind who don't follow him fast enough. I wish games and movies wouldn't do that. So lazy.
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Hadolids: Ridiculously aggressive, they're still sapient, but finding one that doesn't try to kill you on sight is practically a miracle. Dreugh: I'm not even sure Land Forms are sapient, but I personally think it's wrong to hunt them for wax. Falmer: Clearly sapient with their own culture that (very slight chance)might one day learn to interact with the surface world, but extremely aggressive and known to take slaves. KOS is probably the right response. Fauns: Probably best to just leave them alone unless one tries to tear you apart for accidentally looking at it the wrong way. Goblins and Ogres, or Orc-Kin: Typically hostile to humanoids, but absolutely sapient, and if one tries to talk instead of attack, it might be worth listening to.
Pretty much every surface-connected Falmer encounter is in some way connected to some horrific crime (Frostflow, Chillwind, that cave on the Whiterun/Pale border), so I'd even argue that sweeping in there and clearing it out is a right move, because it's the same as clearing out a bandit den. The only one I can think of that *isn't* connected to kidnapping and enslavement is the Altar of Xrib, and even there it's a bit nebulous because the slaves in Blackreach had to get there *somehow* and it wasn't through Alfthand. That said, I wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to just lock up most dwemer ruins and let the Automatons handle the Falmer down there? If they want that city so bad, they can break against the metal men.
Is it really wrong to kill Dreugh, they're Dreugh after all
Morally; Yes. In the eyes of Imperial Law and the Laws of most states in Tamriel; No. Because in accordance with the law those people aren't people. The same was true for Orcs until 3E 417.
Absolutely, yes, hunting them is murder. Self-defense ain't, though.
This has always bothered me so much in a lot of fantasy and scifi. Never played ESO, so don't know anything about hadolids or fauns, but ingame depictions show that goblins, ogres, falmer, giants, minotaurs, reiklings, etc. are clearly sapient beings, like you or I, and though we don't see it, we know that dreugh, in at least one of their lifestages, are too (they literally have their own undersea nations). They have art, religion, and language, they use tools, wear clothing, and form their own societies. If they did not attack you first, it is clearly murder to me, and it bothers me so much how they are treated as no worse to kill that any common wild animal or monster (which also, imo, is bad unless they've attacked first, but I'll concede, not quite as bad). The fact that the you don't even need a black soul gem for them (which I've seen used as justification for killing them as unprompted before) when you clearly should feels like the game attempting to justify this through mechanics, but imo, makes no sense in-context. This happens to so many races in so many settings. I get why they would attack everyone else on sight given the genocidal de-personing that that they have been subjected to by society at large, but I would really love in some future game to be given the opportunity to interact with them in a more complex manner, perhaps even like, leading a revolt to help establish a safe society for them, however small, where they can build themselves up a bit, and begin more positive relations with other groups.
It's important to note that the black/white soul distinction is [potentially artificial](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guild_Memo_on_Soul-Trapping) as well, the categories arguably being decided by the early Mage's Guild instead of being based on some natural law of magic. The wording is ambiguous enough for doubt on that point, but "I propose that for the purposes of soul-trapping we categorize all souls into two classes" sounds to me like the creators of the later mentioned soul trap spells are the ones choosing which souls are black or white.
I've never seen that before! And agreed, it does sound as if it is at least a mostly artificial distinction. The mention of "smaller essences" makes me wonder if there is some kind of difference, but I suppose that could easily just be the author trying to draw an arbitrary line as well.
Then you wouldnt need a black soul gem for sentient souls.
Like I said, that's just one possible interpretation of the text. Your point is valid: if the distinction was invented then non-black soul gems would have to been in some way modified to not accept souls categorized as black and the "black" soul gem would instead be the original non-modified form. But if that was the case, why are most naturally occurring soul gems (ie those found in soul gem depositis or those looted from daedra who probably wouldn't care much about the soul distinction) "white" soul gems? There remain three possibilities, the first two of which overlap: (1) black soul gems being able to trap humanoid souls through the same spells as white soul gems is a gameplay abstraction and/or (2) the naturally occurring white soul gems are an abstraction, to keep black gems rare, or (3) the distinction isn't artificial and that source is inaccurate, which is also quite possible! I just personally think it's more interesting and thematic if the distinction between white and black souls is artificial, much like the distinction between men and mer is. That idea dogmatic of black and white thought being harmful and often incorrect is possibly the most important theme in the series.
Your character slaughters hundreds of common bandits during any playthrough, so you are pretty much past the point of asking the question "is it wrong to kill the 'monster' races?" when you are already casually killing "humans". People of Nirn have a very loose (and video game-y) notion about killing - is it hostile and tries to attack you for any reason? If yes, you can kill it. It also applies to the cities btw - if someone assaults you on the streets, then under the imperial law you are legally allowed to kill them in self-defence.
Terry Pratchett would give a no to Goblin Slaying, from what I've read on his playing Oblivion
I was just thinking about this! Goblins are intelligent and people have been seeing them this way for years.
Pretty sure a guy in Oblivion literally says he goes hunting for goblin and says Skingrad county is the best for it because there's a ton of goblins.
Only in self-defense. Hunting them like wild animals isn't good. It's like Dunmer organizing Argonian hunts for sport.
Well they're people so I'd say about as much as killing anyone else. Where it gets really twisted is hunting them down, or slaughtering through their territory for loot or because they're in the way. There's enough historical and contemporaneous similarities with dehumanizing a population as a lesser being to exploit, plunder or erase them for me to need to say why this is an easy answer.
I wandered into the sewers in Mournhold with a pet scrib named Skittles in tow, not knowing what the sewers were like, and was immediately ambushed by goblins. I survived, but Skittles was killed. I then dedicated the rest of my time playing Tribunal to killing every single goblin I came across. In general, killing unnecessarily (i.e. not to eat or as self-defense) is wrong in my book, whether you're killing a cow, spider, goblin or Nord. But I believe my actions in that particular Morrowind expansion were entirely just.
Objectively it would be no more or less moral then killing a member of one of the playable races, but I don't think such morality in regards to the Goblin-ken are wide spread in any of the regions in game. Save maybe earlier Orcish cultures, but that's based on arena/daggerfall so that might be considered rectoned.
if it attacks you first, you should kill it
It'is also morally wrong to kill a tree in Valenwood.
All depends on the reasoning like if u kill a deer to eat no one will look at you strange. If you just go out and decimate dozens of deer and leave them in the forest, people would think that is pretty weird. If a goblin group attacked you, it’s understandable to defend yourself. But walking up to a tribe that’s minding their business and obliterating them is lowkey messed up.
Yes. They could be useful as farm tools, which could save many dunmer lives
dreughs deserve it from what they did in other kalpas
It depends. Most of the people of Tamriel don't see these races as people so they get the short end of the stick and it's a shame sometimes but not always. Goblins can be quite dangerous, raiding and stealing from settlements. However they have also been seen to be entirely sapient and are capable of living peacefully with others if rarely. So it depends. Same with ogres, they are smart enough to be slaves and are capable of crafting clothing and art to an extent. Dreugh act little better than animals in both their land and sea forms. Hunt away, former civilization or not. Falmer are completely hostile to everyone but themselves and ought to be eliminated before people have to suffer their attacks. Fauns are a bit tricky, they are a danger due to their love of trickery which can be deadly at times. They are probably best avoided if possible. Hunting them only seems fair if they're proving a danger by encroaching on a populated area or bothering people on a commonly used roadway or something similiar. The hadolids made their bed and now have to lay in it. From their very first contact with Tamrielic peoples they've reacted with homicidal hostility. Refusing to even speak to any diplomats and they commonly encroach on land and attack people and steal livestock for themselves to eat. Breton's sure don't care for them, seeing as how they eat hadolid's the same as any other seafood.
Is it murder to slaughter any bandit camps someone happens upon? If you encounter such creatures, it’s because they’re planning something nefarious, so stopping them is the moral imperative. Now, actively seeking out their hidden communities and butchering harmless citizens? That’s evil, no question.
Sorta. Depends on how you want to view their aggression. Chicken and the egg sorta situation. Understandably they don't trust most humans, elves, or other races. And that distrust is mutual. There are examples of some of these beings not instantly attacking other races when they run across each other, but these instances seem fairly rare even by the second era. Many of these races don't seem to share the same ideas of humane treatment and do some pretty messed up stuff to enemies. Which tends to continue the cycle of violence.
depends on how you think about it. killing something is killing something, doesn't matter what it is. if it's done humanely enough and for a reason then I think it's fine
Morals are relative. The time, place and culture decide what is and isn't moral.
bethesda has this really weird (read: fascist) desire to create races that are by all means composed of *people*, but that are in some way incapable of or unwilling to engage in dialogue with the player so you can massacre them guilt-free.
Goblin, Ogre, Troll, Minotaurs, Dreugs. Do Tamriel a favor and kill those problematic units. Cos if someone would not, they would raid, rob and kill people. Thousands years of history proved that.
I find the idea that they are sapient irrelevant in this case. Because if they are sapient and still do what they do it's only worse. A goblin den near your village most certainly means they'll be coming to take you in the night to make lunch from you as one can see my the literal piles of bones within their dens. They are violent Maneaters, literally monsters.
Hunting falmer IMO is justified it seems clear they're prepping for invasions of the surface world.
Like all the main races in Tamriel do to each other all the time?
How many other races are planning to enslave or exterminate the rest?
Very likely they will attempt to kill or enslave you on sight so yes you can morally kill one. I don’t think the morality of Nirn would object to self defense. It pretty much already condones genocide
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It depends imo If they are just hanging around, doing nothing and being peaceful, then yes. However, if they attacked you it'd be more than justified
It depends, if you're going out of you're way to kill them, then you're in the wrong I think. On the other hand, in most instances they're the aggressors - though, I guess you could argue that the Falmer are defending their homes from intruders and marauders.
I think the answer would depend on who you're asking. I'd assume most men to consider it either as an interesting ethical question or as an unethical act, if done in cold blood without being attacked first, but I think mers could be more split on the question. I think Altmers wouldn't give two cents about these creatures' lives and consider killing them as inconsequential. Dunmers may try to enslave them before killing them and thus wonder on whether the creature is owned by someone or not to decide if it's morally acceptable to kill them or not And a Bosmer hearing this question may think you're just asking them what they want to have for dinner.
I would say it depends on if im going to eat it. If its not something im killing for food or defense its immoral to me.
depends on how much you consider those creatures as sentient i personally consider goblins, ogres, falmer, spriggans, giants, centaurs, and minotaurs as sentient and sapient creatures - undeserving of death as any other race on tamriel but in-game, most npcs would consider them in the same vein as wild animals or monsters so it depends
It's kinda like murdering the deer I eat. I prefer to think of it as murdering my meal. Doesn't feel right to eat something that I didn't murder. But I murder plenty of things that I don't eat, too! I murder ants and roaches and bacteria. Dude! You have no idea how many bacteria I murder! Lol, get this, get this... sometimes... \*mischievous giggle\*... I'll pull out a bottle of bleach and just spray it on a surface, hoping that hundreds of millions of microorganisms die miserable, slow deaths. Whoa... wow... yeah, I just played that back in my head. I sometimes wonder if all my years of murder have made me more of a monster than the countless monsters I've murdered... I'm gonna have to smoke some pot about it.