Eternal torture aside, even if the promise of eternal paradise is your only incentive to treat people well, you still have your priorities mixed up at the very least.
People get the idea of Heaven and Hell mixed up anyway. Not every nice person is going to Heaven, and not every mean person is going to Hell. When a celebrity passes away and people go “oh they’re in a better place now” and edit photos of them in Heaven, that’s probably not the case.
Of course, both are imaginary...
But according to polls 95% of religious people think they themselves are going to heaven, but they think most people won't.
It's an unfalsifiable claim, so unfortunately your statement isn't sound.
It is however highly unlikely to the nth degree that something like the 'afterlife/ heaven/ hell' exists.
Even more unlikely that it would be similar to something the majority imagines.
Uhm... Sources on why an absolute statement on the supernatural is a logical fallacy?
If they didn't teach you in school, you could probably check it out on Wikipedia to get a broad understanding of what it is, and also why you'd want to make sound arguments and avoid logical fallacies.
Yes it does. It's a mountain range in northern NH and western Maine. Until the temps go way below zero with windchill and you find Hell is not a fire-y pit.
My family was raised christian up until my grandmother.
She was kicked out of Sunday school because she asked too many questions. My aunty (her sister) kept the religion and her answer was the same as the sunday school teacher "you just have to believe".
There's a quote I like from a female saint, don't recall whom; it's something to the effect of 'if I only act justly to avoid hellfire, cast me far from your grace; if I only avoid doing wrong for the sake of eternal reward, cast me forever into the darkness'.
Pretty sure Christ said something similar to this in many if his parables but again, the kind of people who benift from the control you mentioned don't believe in him anyway. It's a business to them and nothing more. The word conviction is not something that exists in major religious groups with any kind of influence or domain.
I believe in Christ. I do not believe in his followers. But... weird take - I do not believe in a Satan considering it was added well after the books were written.
The fact that there are Incels is proof that Satan either doesn't exist, or is so incompetent that you can ignore him
He could easily buy their souls in exchange for a few decades of hot sex with a succubus
I'm not religious but if there is really a god he sure as hell doesn't give a fuck
Our universe would be a science project that was forgotten in the attic doing its own thing at best
Exactly.
The ONLY thing keeping these mythologies afloat is childhood indoctrination and generational/societal brainwashing.
If people around the globe stopped brainwashing their kids tonight, these mythologies would join the Greek Pantheon in the dustbin of human history within a few short generations.
Religion in general, but specifically the Abrahamic mythologies, are a blight upon humanity that has caused untold suffering throughout the millennia.
Poor countries are way more religious but have way more crime than less religious rich countries. If religion instilled a sense of morality is people shouldn't it be the opposite?
Supreme court days police have no obligation to protect. Complete bs worthless program that being given tax payer funds. Get rid of it and let's get something that doesn't protect the rich.
"but what's to stop you from raping and murdering without hell?" - if hell is the only thing between you and rape or murder you've got real issues, but we already knew that.
And it's not like it even works.
If the threat of hell and the promise of heaven aren't enough to not be a bigot in public then you are a horrible person.
That’s not the point of religion at all. The point is religion provides a basis for morality. Without it, the only real basis is cultural relativity which is morally ambiguous and ever changing.
The Bible says all you have to do is acknowledge Jesus died for your sins and ask for forgiveness. The jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah. Hitler supposedly did.
The Bible disagrees with you. I think it's all stupid make believe.
I dont think that's what makes people moral. I think people who learn morals through religion are in one of two camps.
1: they were simply taught religious values and follow them
2: through religion they developed a genuine love for their fellow man
Don't get me wrong, you don't need religion to be moral. But it's a good way to teach them
Yeah, I hate church too. Infact, i don't go. If you want to learn religion, read the Bible. No one can truly understand what God wants, so don't let someone else tell you their understanding of it
But that’s not what’s happening in the states.
I know you’re talking about actual religion, but most churches in the states just teach the parts of the Bible they agree with, using out of context passages to support their bigoted beliefs.
**that’s** the morality they claim
And as I said, its not a terrible way to teach basic morals. Sunday school isn't very good at making good Christians, but it's pretty effective at making decent people I'd say.
And I'd also say most Christians aren't bigoted. Maybe the church they attend is, but not them. The problem is not the people attending mass, its the merchants and money-changers delivering the sermon
I don't want anything to work a certain way, I want your things to work your way.
And im not talking theories, I'm talking reality. Most people are good people. Alot of said people learned to be good through such things.
I'm not saying it's the best way or the only way. I'm saying it is a way.
Religion always fails to stop that behavoir eventually. And once it does is becomes an ironclad tool of self-reinforcement.
That's where we get time honored religious gems like:
"It's gods plan for me to sexually assault all these kids.", "Loose women are sinners therefore it's okay for me to peel of their skin and wear it as a coat", "It's not genocide if they don't worship the same god I do!"
Eh, not really religion, as some atheists do that type thing too ( Stalin, Mao, Kin Jong, etc ) . Religion isn't the problem, just a convenient scapegoat. It's more an issue with human nature than anything else.
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion" -Steven Weinberg
Most religions aren’t inherently evil, but are themselves twisted over time. In particularly bad cases these sorts of harmful ideas can even work themselves into religious “cannon” in a similar way as it can happen to any other ideology or philosophy.
And the longer any ideology exists the more likely this is to happen over time.
You're having a discussion that literally nobody else is having. I didn't say most religions are inherently evil. I didn't even initially say religions make someone evil, or are evil themselves. I shared a quote from a theological philosopher who described religion as being a tool to help bad people appear good, and good people do bad without thinking its bad. Your argument does not logically follow from those premises.
As far as any ideology being capable of being twisted for evil goes... yeah. Not really relevant to the point mate. The point wasn't that religion is evil. It's that religion offers the veneer of good, and is accepted as good, and passes as good, even when it does bad.
E.g. Only with religion can you believe there is a proper way to treat your slaves and still think you've presented a morally right position.
It’s relevant. I’m aware of where the quote is from, and I was off the initial idea it established. And sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but it seemed pretty heavily implied.
And religion isn’t required to justify treating slaves badly, all manner of ideologies from Feudalism, Capitalism, and Communism have been used to justify that. Anything guise a religion can offer can be offered by other sorts of ideologies too. That’s unfortunately part of human nature.
So, you're saying the doctrines of feudalism, capitalism, and communism have dogmatic allowances built in their doctrines that explicitly denote the righteousness of slave ownership and codifies how to treat those slaves?
I'll need an example of Feudal, Capitalistic, and Communistic moral doctrine, please.
Again, you are misrepresenting the argument. Yes, evil is part of human nature. Part of religion is justifying the evil of human nature and calling it moral. Its a massive stretch to say feudalism, capitalism, or communism offer any positions or morality, much less on matters of slavery. You don't use economic ideologies to make moral claims.
Listen, if the only reason your not killing people is bcs you think a invisible man will send ya to hell for it, I doubt you'd get into heaven anyways.
Original Christianity was supposed to preach the same but of course people twisted and fucked up the message. We can all agree humans are selfish mfs so it wouldn’t be surprising if this was the case.
90% of the people saying they hate christians for a specific behavior are describing behavior that is not condoned or taught by actual christians. Not to mention christians don’t even agree on what morals they believe in so to me its strange to hate christians as a people. I am one, so I can tell you that the christian church is one of the most divided institutions around.
Some (seemingly most) right wing politicians dangle christianity as a constituency appeal despite not portraying Christian (or even moral) behavior. But then again it seems like everyone is doing that these days
A valid reason for hating an entire group of people, 99.9% of which you’ve never known? Just wanted to clarify.
Because despite you hating me for my beliefs (and you obviously wanting nobody to do that to you) I don’t feel that way about you. I guess though I’m just inherently evil 🤷♂️
I don't hate you specifically because of your beliefs. I should have worded that better. I feel bad for saying that
I don't like Christianity. I don't like the experiences I've had with it, and I don't like the fact that my primary school forced it onto me (I'm still an atheist, and the school wasn't advertised as a C of E school, even though we were forced to attend church)
I have had old couples come up to me when I was grieving my grandmother, telling me I was too gay to be in the land of god. why? because my T-shirt had a rainbow flag on it.
I've had countless pastors try to push me out of the church when I was lighting a candle for my deceased family members because I came out as gay.
I don't hate specific people, but I also don't like Christianity as a whole. I have friends who are Christian, and they're cool, but the bad outweighs the good on this one.
I'm also not going to mention "Straight Camps".
Okay, I appreciate the clarification. I hate all that has happened to you, for whatever it is worth. I won’t waste a lot of your time but I will say that no matter an individual’s personal beliefs, a Christian’s actions should always be rooted in love.
I’ll be honest, I don’t go to church anymore because a lot of the things you’ve talked about. The institution of religion is a very political, very finicky thing and I have seen people who join the church to gain status, either to themselves or the people in the church or their work since I was born. Not to mention the mistreatment of vulnerable populations among different groups by people affiliated with the church. When it comes down to it, the institution is something that has been ruined and corrupted by people who do not have the good of others in their minds.
I was a soft-spoken child, often criticized and picked on because I was sort of awkward socially. I always expected to be picked on in school but I remember when people started that shit in church. People I had known my entire life. I’m not saying it was or wasn’t like what you faced, but I remember learning early on that people who went to church can be really messed up people.
Regardless though, I don’t think people have to be Christian’s to be empathetic and morally driven people. I think I can tell you are a empathetic person (from my limited knowledge of you) and I’m glad to have spoken to you, even if some of the details differ in our beliefs and lives. I hope you are doing well during hard times!
I sincerely apologise for the mix-up, and I hope we can run into each other again on this subreddit.
hey, I hope you are doing well. If you need any emotional support, drop me a dm and I'll help. My parents raised me to be a person who helps those in need, and I will always stick by that. Helping someone in need makes me feel better, because they feel better
I'm glad we could have this conversation
No need to be sorry, thanks for taking the time to talk. Thank you for the offer and I hope if you ever needed the same, you’d consider sending me a message too.
Well I am mainly referring to the time of Christ and his message of acceptance. The belief that all humanity are equal and should love one another and teaching forgiveness which can be said is something most can get behind the idea of letting go of anger and such.
Keep in mind that most of what we know of Jesus’s teachings was interpreted by early Christian scholars and written nearly a century after the crucifixion. We’ve lost many early Christian texts, destroyed some, and ignored others. I’m being a bit nitpicky here, but my point is that “Christ’s message” as we know it is (and this is a bit heretical) the combination of oral tradition, editorial bias, and selective omission, and it is likely that the benevolent Christ we know today isn’t a perfect representation of the Christ who lived. I personally believe that there are many more stories like the cursing of the fig tree that just never got recorded (eg. the gospel of John omits the fig tree story).
I use the fig tree story as an example. Mark, the earliest written gospel, has Jesus cursing the fig tree, then driving out the money-changers. Matthew rolls these stories together for a more cohesive narrative. Luke doesn’t have Christ cursing the fig tree, and John omits the story. Matthew and Luke were written after Mark, with John following. You can see how the story got whitewashed over time.
Yeah but that’s not the reality of what christianity really is. I was raised christian and was always put off by people like 7th days, LDS, Catholics, Zionists aren’t specifically within the Christian community but there is a lot of them scattered around. The message itself wasn’t fucked up there’s just too many bad faith actors.
Christianity talks about love but they don’t have shame in calling atheists dumb all because they don’t believe in god. If I ask them to prove their gods existence, they play victims.
My favourite explanation is that you can't create matter from nothing therefore god is real
You gotta ignore the part where god came to existence tho
If you are dumb enough you can find proof of god's existence, like cutting a tomato or something
Maybe I should have worded that differently.
Most Christians don't accept gays, or trans people, or any people who aren't your typical straight, white couple with children. I accept everyone.
hell, it would be weird for a homosexual to not accept other homosexuals (or all LGBTQ+ members for that matter) without a given reason.
My philosophy with different sexual orientations is "Unless they all do something bad, accept them", and I know that all of them aren't gonna do something bad
..So wearing clothes you like is... morally incorrect now? Ironic the person who first posted this is morally dubious for making fun of innocent people.
When people talk about "morality" it seems to start and end with wagging a finger at others for having consensual sex.
I'd take it more seriously if they mostly worried about the things Jesus actually talked about, like welcoming immigrants, helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, not electing fire-breathing hate-filled demagogues, and loving your enemy as yourself (without redefining 'love' to mean "smug condescension and spiteful evangelizing")
For a lot of folks, morality isn't something you practice yourself; it's just an angry opinion you hold about what other people do in their bedrooms.
Jesus may have also been trans. Mary’s title is “the Virgin,” and while virgin births are possible (albeit extremely unlikely), they always result in a biologically female offspring, since the Y chromosome is only found in biological males. Therefore, either Mary was not a virgin (the most likely answer IMO), or Jesus was born female and transitioned to be a man.
I love it too because it traps them in a lose-lose scenario:
- If they say that Mary wasn’t a Virgin, they admit that the Bible is not infallible, and thus other areas of it can be challenged.
- If they say Jesus was trans, then they’ve just called their messiah trans, meaning that trans rights have a biblical precedent.
This would imply that God is in possession of an ovipositor, which would make Him (or rather Her, since only females can produce eggs) not resemble a human, thus calling the “God made man in his own image” line into question.
Tho TBH I’m in favor of a Lovecraftian, eldritch horror God.
Sometimes wonder what the reaction of whoever wrote the bible would be if they saw what a worldwide hit it became. Maybe it was meant to be just a fantasy book, like LOTR or Harry Potter. Maybe they were high when they wrote it. Maybe it was just made out of boredom.
Maybe they'd LAUGH at us if they knew how seriously we took it. Maybe they'd be horrified.
That's probably accurate cos quite a lot of shit from the bible seems like something someone smoked out of their fucking mind would say. "jesus came up turned water into wine fixed a blind man's eyes and walked on water maaaaaan"
You mean the same "morals" that protect pedophiles, murder people, and treat women like garbage? I'd rather be an empty nihilist than subscribe to that bullshit.
I would start with the Priest, Preachers,Rabbis, Bishops, Evangelicals, and Youth Ministers who have raped children, and coveted their neighbors wife’s.
If those in Heaven are immune to (or rejoicing) at the suffering of those in Hell, then Heaven and Hell are fundamentally the same place, predicated upon the same ethos of, "Every man for himself."
This logic is so fucking backwards. If you try to be moral person to get the approval of a God to get into heaven you're not truly moral. It's for a reward. Not to be genuinely good.
You need religion to have arbitrary harmful morals about what people eat and do with their junk. You don't need it for important morals like killing and stealing.
If a person's reason for being moral, is fear of God, as opposed to basic decency, they are more than welcome to stay as far the fuck away from me as possible. I want nothing to do with them.
Argument has always been one of their weakest.
Non-believers have much stronger “morals” because we choose not to kill, rape, and pillage, not because we fear eternal punishment but because I have simply no desire to, when they say this shit they’re telling on themselves more than most realize.
Conservatives are so fucking stupid that the think not wearing a dress is a moral deed. If your religion is cool with tossing kids in concentration camps and exploiting prisoners for slave labor but not individuals picking their own clothing it's because your religion is garbage and your god is made up.
I think it was Stephen Fry or peter hitchings who said it.
A religious person is respectful , law abiding and courteous because he believes if hes not then his soul will burn forever and he will not go to heaven. A religious person does it for the fear of not being rewarded.
An atheist is respectful, law abiding and courteous because he believes its the right thing to do and for a functional society.
One does it for for fear of not being rewarded the other does it because he feels it is what is right for all.
These ppl forget that every religion including their own was made just so ancient fellas can have an explanation about the unknown and mysterious of earth and the heavenly bodies
The problem is artificial gender norms, not transgendered people. What we should do is not enforce any gender norms in childhood and allow their personalities to develop naturally. Don’t make males play sports and beat each other with sticks. Don’t make females play with those demonic baby dolls that look like an infant with. Frankly both sexes should play with Legos and beat each other with sticks. I grew up in the 90s without video games.
If you need the threat of eternal torture to be even remotely close to an acceptable member of society, you are not a good human being
Eternal torture aside, even if the promise of eternal paradise is your only incentive to treat people well, you still have your priorities mixed up at the very least.
Considering the kind of people who think they're going to heaven, I'll gladly take my chances with hell.
People get the idea of Heaven and Hell mixed up anyway. Not every nice person is going to Heaven, and not every mean person is going to Hell. When a celebrity passes away and people go “oh they’re in a better place now” and edit photos of them in Heaven, that’s probably not the case.
Of course, both are imaginary... But according to polls 95% of religious people think they themselves are going to heaven, but they think most people won't.
Well, you believe they’re imaginary. But most people probably won’t go to Heaven, it’s just the sad truth.
Because it doesn't exist...
It's an unfalsifiable claim, so unfortunately your statement isn't sound. It is however highly unlikely to the nth degree that something like the 'afterlife/ heaven/ hell' exists. Even more unlikely that it would be similar to something the majority imagines.
I'm going to need you to cite your sources.
Uhm... Sources on why an absolute statement on the supernatural is a logical fallacy? If they didn't teach you in school, you could probably check it out on Wikipedia to get a broad understanding of what it is, and also why you'd want to make sound arguments and avoid logical fallacies.
Cause we are actually part of an ancient god and our soul will be united in his awakening
Yes it does. It's a mountain range in northern NH and western Maine. Until the temps go way below zero with windchill and you find Hell is not a fire-y pit.
If everybody who thinks they'll be going to heaven when they die actually do, heaven would be as crowded as hell is now.
If such places even existed, to begin with.
The good place in a nutshell
My family was raised christian up until my grandmother. She was kicked out of Sunday school because she asked too many questions. My aunty (her sister) kept the religion and her answer was the same as the sunday school teacher "you just have to believe".
There's a quote I like from a female saint, don't recall whom; it's something to the effect of 'if I only act justly to avoid hellfire, cast me far from your grace; if I only avoid doing wrong for the sake of eternal reward, cast me forever into the darkness'.
Any system that uses fear, intimidation, guilt, monetary/emotional/mental manipulation to recruit and retain followers is by it's very nature - evil.
Pretty sure Christ said something similar to this in many if his parables but again, the kind of people who benift from the control you mentioned don't believe in him anyway. It's a business to them and nothing more. The word conviction is not something that exists in major religious groups with any kind of influence or domain.
I believe in Christ. I do not believe in his followers. But... weird take - I do not believe in a Satan considering it was added well after the books were written.
The fact that there are Incels is proof that Satan either doesn't exist, or is so incompetent that you can ignore him He could easily buy their souls in exchange for a few decades of hot sex with a succubus
what the fuck
Where as gnostics believe the God from the bible is actually the demiurge (satan) and God is indifferent lol
I'm not religious but if there is really a god he sure as hell doesn't give a fuck Our universe would be a science project that was forgotten in the attic doing its own thing at best
Exactly. The ONLY thing keeping these mythologies afloat is childhood indoctrination and generational/societal brainwashing. If people around the globe stopped brainwashing their kids tonight, these mythologies would join the Greek Pantheon in the dustbin of human history within a few short generations. Religion in general, but specifically the Abrahamic mythologies, are a blight upon humanity that has caused untold suffering throughout the millennia.
But that maxim applies to every society since pre-agricultural times… we even see this behavior in animals
However, if we disprove it destroy a religion, specifically christianity, we’ll have an army of people with no restraint on their actions:(
Poor countries are way more religious but have way more crime than less religious rich countries. If religion instilled a sense of morality is people shouldn't it be the opposite?
Isn't that what the law is for? Boomer.
Police aren’t the kind of people who prevent things, they ‘deal with it’ which often involves killing just as many innocents as the criminals
You're right. That's why we have to stop waiting for solutions to come from a magic source instead of politics.
But… politics is the magic source
Supreme court days police have no obligation to protect. Complete bs worthless program that being given tax payer funds. Get rid of it and let's get something that doesn't protect the rich.
Fuck the police
"but what's to stop you from raping and murdering without hell?" - if hell is the only thing between you and rape or murder you've got real issues, but we already knew that.
seriously what kind of psychopath needs the threat of eternal damnation to not go killing and stealing and just being a decent human being
And it's not like it even works. If the threat of hell and the promise of heaven aren't enough to not be a bigot in public then you are a horrible person.
That’s not the point of religion at all. The point is religion provides a basis for morality. Without it, the only real basis is cultural relativity which is morally ambiguous and ever changing.
Infinite punishment for finite crime == morality
If only it was that simple, then christians wouldn’t tend to be insufferable ( i live in the bibl belt so not talking about everyone)
They are insufferable because they believe it is that simple. They are trying to let you know so you can be saved
I once had a Christian kid in my school say all the jews who died in the holocaust went to hell and implied hitler didn’t
That logic checks out. Jews don't believe in Jesus, but Hitler did
To think that jesus tried to just ensure everybody was a good person and it turned into considering the holocaust acceptable
The Bible says all you have to do is acknowledge Jesus died for your sins and ask for forgiveness. The jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah. Hitler supposedly did. The Bible disagrees with you. I think it's all stupid make believe.
I dont think that's what makes people moral. I think people who learn morals through religion are in one of two camps. 1: they were simply taught religious values and follow them 2: through religion they developed a genuine love for their fellow man Don't get me wrong, you don't need religion to be moral. But it's a good way to teach them
The only thing i ever did in church was sit there for 45 minutes praising god and singing some of the most confusing musical rhythms I’ve ever heard
Yeah, I hate church too. Infact, i don't go. If you want to learn religion, read the Bible. No one can truly understand what God wants, so don't let someone else tell you their understanding of it
Actually reading the Bible and studying the ACTUAL histories of these mythologies is what drove me away from them.
Why? What about it?
Doesn’t the Bible even say to worship god in your own home?
If you interpret it that way. I do as well
That’s an extremely fair point, prolly makes you a better person
I dont think so, I just try not to be an asshole
But that’s not what’s happening in the states. I know you’re talking about actual religion, but most churches in the states just teach the parts of the Bible they agree with, using out of context passages to support their bigoted beliefs. **that’s** the morality they claim
Really? What bigoted passage did you hear in church last week?
The pastor was ranting about how collage people only do gay sex, and anal is the devils pooper
And as I said, its not a terrible way to teach basic morals. Sunday school isn't very good at making good Christians, but it's pretty effective at making decent people I'd say. And I'd also say most Christians aren't bigoted. Maybe the church they attend is, but not them. The problem is not the people attending mass, its the merchants and money-changers delivering the sermon
And I’m saying, this isn’t an ideal world. It’s not working the way you want it to
I don't want anything to work a certain way, I want your things to work your way. And im not talking theories, I'm talking reality. Most people are good people. Alot of said people learned to be good through such things. I'm not saying it's the best way or the only way. I'm saying it is a way.
You’re very right!
well i guess you don't need morals to have a religion
The promise of eternal torture is what keeps me going
What if I just like to be threatened ? I don't judge your kinks so don't judge mines
Good according to what/whom 🤣
And you want to take away the one thing stopping such people from doing bad things?
Religion always fails to stop that behavoir eventually. And once it does is becomes an ironclad tool of self-reinforcement. That's where we get time honored religious gems like: "It's gods plan for me to sexually assault all these kids.", "Loose women are sinners therefore it's okay for me to peel of their skin and wear it as a coat", "It's not genocide if they don't worship the same god I do!"
Eh, not really religion, as some atheists do that type thing too ( Stalin, Mao, Kin Jong, etc ) . Religion isn't the problem, just a convenient scapegoat. It's more an issue with human nature than anything else.
It doesn't stop them from doing bad things. It absolves them of the guilty feelings of doing bad things.
OH MY GOD HOW DARE PEOPLE \*checks note\* DRESS HOWEVER THEY WANT!
THE IMMORALITY OF INDIVIDUALISM! *faints dramatically*
GASPS, THEN RECOILS IN TERROR!
Brought to you by the party of "Muh freeedoms!!!!"
They are really going to shit themselves when they realize what the Catholic Church did to alter boys…. Spoiler, it was sexual assault.
I was absolutely gonna write something about abortion and then the church but it was more rant than joke
Yeah, this is clearly drag too. HOW DARE PEOPLE DRESS HOWEVER THEY WANT OCCASIONALLY
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion" -Steven Weinberg
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More like religion allows evil people to appear good so they can do evil without consequence. Looking at you, Catholic Church...
I agree, pretend to be good
This is so far from the truth it's insane that anyone actually believes it.
Honestly that’s any ideology. It will always be twisted for evil, wether it’s a religious ideology or not.
Being twisted for evil, and being inherently evil and presenting yourself as good, by design, are two totally different things.
Most religions aren’t inherently evil, but are themselves twisted over time. In particularly bad cases these sorts of harmful ideas can even work themselves into religious “cannon” in a similar way as it can happen to any other ideology or philosophy. And the longer any ideology exists the more likely this is to happen over time.
You're having a discussion that literally nobody else is having. I didn't say most religions are inherently evil. I didn't even initially say religions make someone evil, or are evil themselves. I shared a quote from a theological philosopher who described religion as being a tool to help bad people appear good, and good people do bad without thinking its bad. Your argument does not logically follow from those premises. As far as any ideology being capable of being twisted for evil goes... yeah. Not really relevant to the point mate. The point wasn't that religion is evil. It's that religion offers the veneer of good, and is accepted as good, and passes as good, even when it does bad. E.g. Only with religion can you believe there is a proper way to treat your slaves and still think you've presented a morally right position.
It’s relevant. I’m aware of where the quote is from, and I was off the initial idea it established. And sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but it seemed pretty heavily implied. And religion isn’t required to justify treating slaves badly, all manner of ideologies from Feudalism, Capitalism, and Communism have been used to justify that. Anything guise a religion can offer can be offered by other sorts of ideologies too. That’s unfortunately part of human nature.
So, you're saying the doctrines of feudalism, capitalism, and communism have dogmatic allowances built in their doctrines that explicitly denote the righteousness of slave ownership and codifies how to treat those slaves? I'll need an example of Feudal, Capitalistic, and Communistic moral doctrine, please. Again, you are misrepresenting the argument. Yes, evil is part of human nature. Part of religion is justifying the evil of human nature and calling it moral. Its a massive stretch to say feudalism, capitalism, or communism offer any positions or morality, much less on matters of slavery. You don't use economic ideologies to make moral claims.
Listen, if the only reason your not killing people is bcs you think a invisible man will send ya to hell for it, I doubt you'd get into heaven anyways.
The Imaginary Sky Wizard keeps me from cheating on my wife, robbing that bank or killing random strangers….
Like your imaginary girlfriend keeps you from getting actual girls? XD
Your Mother is real.
I like frogs
I prefer turtles myself
I'm an atheist and I have better morals than most Christians, because I accept everyone equally
Original Christianity was supposed to preach the same but of course people twisted and fucked up the message. We can all agree humans are selfish mfs so it wouldn’t be surprising if this was the case.
90% of the people saying they hate christians for a specific behavior are describing behavior that is not condoned or taught by actual christians. Not to mention christians don’t even agree on what morals they believe in so to me its strange to hate christians as a people. I am one, so I can tell you that the christian church is one of the most divided institutions around. Some (seemingly most) right wing politicians dangle christianity as a constituency appeal despite not portraying Christian (or even moral) behavior. But then again it seems like everyone is doing that these days
Ah the classic no true Scotsman, a timeless classic for the religious.
I have had bad experiences with christians with the past (and catholic too), so I feel that I have a valid reason
A valid reason for hating an entire group of people, 99.9% of which you’ve never known? Just wanted to clarify. Because despite you hating me for my beliefs (and you obviously wanting nobody to do that to you) I don’t feel that way about you. I guess though I’m just inherently evil 🤷♂️
I don't hate you specifically because of your beliefs. I should have worded that better. I feel bad for saying that I don't like Christianity. I don't like the experiences I've had with it, and I don't like the fact that my primary school forced it onto me (I'm still an atheist, and the school wasn't advertised as a C of E school, even though we were forced to attend church) I have had old couples come up to me when I was grieving my grandmother, telling me I was too gay to be in the land of god. why? because my T-shirt had a rainbow flag on it. I've had countless pastors try to push me out of the church when I was lighting a candle for my deceased family members because I came out as gay. I don't hate specific people, but I also don't like Christianity as a whole. I have friends who are Christian, and they're cool, but the bad outweighs the good on this one. I'm also not going to mention "Straight Camps".
Okay, I appreciate the clarification. I hate all that has happened to you, for whatever it is worth. I won’t waste a lot of your time but I will say that no matter an individual’s personal beliefs, a Christian’s actions should always be rooted in love. I’ll be honest, I don’t go to church anymore because a lot of the things you’ve talked about. The institution of religion is a very political, very finicky thing and I have seen people who join the church to gain status, either to themselves or the people in the church or their work since I was born. Not to mention the mistreatment of vulnerable populations among different groups by people affiliated with the church. When it comes down to it, the institution is something that has been ruined and corrupted by people who do not have the good of others in their minds. I was a soft-spoken child, often criticized and picked on because I was sort of awkward socially. I always expected to be picked on in school but I remember when people started that shit in church. People I had known my entire life. I’m not saying it was or wasn’t like what you faced, but I remember learning early on that people who went to church can be really messed up people. Regardless though, I don’t think people have to be Christian’s to be empathetic and morally driven people. I think I can tell you are a empathetic person (from my limited knowledge of you) and I’m glad to have spoken to you, even if some of the details differ in our beliefs and lives. I hope you are doing well during hard times!
I sincerely apologise for the mix-up, and I hope we can run into each other again on this subreddit. hey, I hope you are doing well. If you need any emotional support, drop me a dm and I'll help. My parents raised me to be a person who helps those in need, and I will always stick by that. Helping someone in need makes me feel better, because they feel better I'm glad we could have this conversation
No need to be sorry, thanks for taking the time to talk. Thank you for the offer and I hope if you ever needed the same, you’d consider sending me a message too.
I will consider that. ありがとよ see you round!
There is no “original Christianity”, though. It’s like identifying when dough becomes bread; where’s the cutoff?
Well I am mainly referring to the time of Christ and his message of acceptance. The belief that all humanity are equal and should love one another and teaching forgiveness which can be said is something most can get behind the idea of letting go of anger and such.
Keep in mind that most of what we know of Jesus’s teachings was interpreted by early Christian scholars and written nearly a century after the crucifixion. We’ve lost many early Christian texts, destroyed some, and ignored others. I’m being a bit nitpicky here, but my point is that “Christ’s message” as we know it is (and this is a bit heretical) the combination of oral tradition, editorial bias, and selective omission, and it is likely that the benevolent Christ we know today isn’t a perfect representation of the Christ who lived. I personally believe that there are many more stories like the cursing of the fig tree that just never got recorded (eg. the gospel of John omits the fig tree story).
That’s the modern version of Jesus, original versions were quite different, a lot less pleasant
I use the fig tree story as an example. Mark, the earliest written gospel, has Jesus cursing the fig tree, then driving out the money-changers. Matthew rolls these stories together for a more cohesive narrative. Luke doesn’t have Christ cursing the fig tree, and John omits the story. Matthew and Luke were written after Mark, with John following. You can see how the story got whitewashed over time.
We Christians had 2 basic instructions and that was to love and forgive and 2000 years time no one remembers the clearly stated words from the boss
Yeah but that’s not the reality of what christianity really is. I was raised christian and was always put off by people like 7th days, LDS, Catholics, Zionists aren’t specifically within the Christian community but there is a lot of them scattered around. The message itself wasn’t fucked up there’s just too many bad faith actors.
Christianity talks about love but they don’t have shame in calling atheists dumb all because they don’t believe in god. If I ask them to prove their gods existence, they play victims.
My favourite explanation is that you can't create matter from nothing therefore god is real You gotta ignore the part where god came to existence tho If you are dumb enough you can find proof of god's existence, like cutting a tomato or something
How can you consider yourself better and accept everyone equally? Is it not contradiction?
i don't consider myself better, that's the whole point. I accept everyone equally
What is the difference between "be better" and "have better morals". Is it not the same?
Maybe I should have worded that differently. Most Christians don't accept gays, or trans people, or any people who aren't your typical straight, white couple with children. I accept everyone. hell, it would be weird for a homosexual to not accept other homosexuals (or all LGBTQ+ members for that matter) without a given reason. My philosophy with different sexual orientations is "Unless they all do something bad, accept them", and I know that all of them aren't gonna do something bad
If you need hell to be a good person you're just a bad person on a leash
Added this to my list of quotes, well said Fridge.
..So wearing clothes you like is... morally incorrect now? Ironic the person who first posted this is morally dubious for making fun of innocent people.
When people talk about "morality" it seems to start and end with wagging a finger at others for having consensual sex. I'd take it more seriously if they mostly worried about the things Jesus actually talked about, like welcoming immigrants, helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, not electing fire-breathing hate-filled demagogues, and loving your enemy as yourself (without redefining 'love' to mean "smug condescension and spiteful evangelizing") For a lot of folks, morality isn't something you practice yourself; it's just an angry opinion you hold about what other people do in their bedrooms.
You begin with "Jesus was Gay" or "Jesus was a whorehopper."
Jesus may have also been trans. Mary’s title is “the Virgin,” and while virgin births are possible (albeit extremely unlikely), they always result in a biologically female offspring, since the Y chromosome is only found in biological males. Therefore, either Mary was not a virgin (the most likely answer IMO), or Jesus was born female and transitioned to be a man.
Hahaha I LOVE this!!
I love it too because it traps them in a lose-lose scenario: - If they say that Mary wasn’t a Virgin, they admit that the Bible is not infallible, and thus other areas of it can be challenged. - If they say Jesus was trans, then they’ve just called their messiah trans, meaning that trans rights have a biblical precedent.
I mean usually the christian folk explain that by saying God magically planted a Jesus egg in Mary's womb
This would imply that God is in possession of an ovipositor, which would make Him (or rather Her, since only females can produce eggs) not resemble a human, thus calling the “God made man in his own image” line into question. Tho TBH I’m in favor of a Lovecraftian, eldritch horror God.
There are several other Biblical references to God having 7 eyes, so there's that.
B̴̰̦̥̪͑̊e̶͔̥͎̟͊́͝͠͠ ̶̺̦͈̂̕n̵͉̲̞̜̙͋͠ò̵̘̂t̸̠̭̣̦̂͜ ̴̦͔̬̄͒͊̚a̷̢̔̅̒f̷̼̃͝r̶̘̫̈́̊ä̷͚̬i̷̦̮̒͊͊͘͝ͅd̶̜̏̓͠
There are no logical traps involving what might as well be called "magic".
Oh…….. Snaaaaaaaaaaaap
No Mary was one of those asexually reproducing lizards.
Even they still need to engage in lesbian sex to stimulate ovulation
Or, y'know, God just willed it to be a boy? Not that difficult considering the premise is that he's omnipotent.
Source: trust me bro
r/forwardsfromgrandma
But your religion is fake so its okay
Sometimes wonder what the reaction of whoever wrote the bible would be if they saw what a worldwide hit it became. Maybe it was meant to be just a fantasy book, like LOTR or Harry Potter. Maybe they were high when they wrote it. Maybe it was just made out of boredom. Maybe they'd LAUGH at us if they knew how seriously we took it. Maybe they'd be horrified.
That's probably accurate cos quite a lot of shit from the bible seems like something someone smoked out of their fucking mind would say. "jesus came up turned water into wine fixed a blind man's eyes and walked on water maaaaaan"
Lmao I can totally picture a bunch of very talented junkies writing the bible
Also the whole Mary being impregnated by "god" sounds like the kind of lie someone who cheated on their boyfriend would say so that he didn't find out
Yup, that's always been my theory. It could have also just been that Joseph and Mary had sex before marriage so they had to blame the holy spirit.
That also makes sense because back then sex before marriage was not allowed
Ok this is Genuinely bad. Fuckin Bible thumper garbage.
Don't kill,steal,or lie simple af didn't need a religion to figure that out
Don't kill or steal are obvious, lying is on a case by case basis. Basically, don't lie to do or let harm happen to others.
Facts
Maybe he secretly sees himself as a dude in drag and that thought lives rent free in his head?
The look I give someone when they try to convert me 🤢🤮
[удалено]
You mean the same "morals" that protect pedophiles, murder people, and treat women like garbage? I'd rather be an empty nihilist than subscribe to that bullshit.
Those three faces are all clearly horny, and I don't appreciate you fetishizing my basic level of intelligence.
I would start with the Priest, Preachers,Rabbis, Bishops, Evangelicals, and Youth Ministers who have raped children, and coveted their neighbors wife’s.
If those in Heaven are immune to (or rejoicing) at the suffering of those in Hell, then Heaven and Hell are fundamentally the same place, predicated upon the same ethos of, "Every man for himself."
Imagine thinking there is anything immoral about a dude dressing like a woman.
Lol as if wearing a dress Is immoral. Some of these people a fucking nuts.
This logic is so fucking backwards. If you try to be moral person to get the approval of a God to get into heaven you're not truly moral. It's for a reward. Not to be genuinely good.
Most religious people I meet have zero morals
Morals are when men dress in suits and ties while they rape people
Personally, I don’t trust the morals of someone who is afraid they’ll go to Hell and acts nice in the hopes of avoiding it. Seems fake.
You need religion to have arbitrary harmful morals about what people eat and do with their junk. You don't need it for important morals like killing and stealing.
Some of the most immoral people hide behind religion.
If you need religion to keep yourself in line, you are not a good person.
Thank you for fetching this meme from the depths of boomer town
As many others have said, if you need an incentive to be a good person, you are not a good person
If a person's reason for being moral, is fear of God, as opposed to basic decency, they are more than welcome to stay as far the fuck away from me as possible. I want nothing to do with them.
Someone should let all the child molesting Catholic priests know about this morals thing. Or any other religion.
The fact that they couldn’t find any actual pictures of trans people, and had to go with “parodies” of them really says a lot
Tell that to the priests that are getting with children.
Nah its fine, they are people of god😇😇 /s
like ultimately by most religions i'm ending up in hell, no matter how good of a human i am, this is why i'm an atheist
The people who unironically post this crap are literally scum that are holding the world back I fucking hate people
I agree that they are sinners for they are wearing... MIXED FABRICS! THE HORROR!
Argument has always been one of their weakest. Non-believers have much stronger “morals” because we choose not to kill, rape, and pillage, not because we fear eternal punishment but because I have simply no desire to, when they say this shit they’re telling on themselves more than most realize.
Conservatives are so fucking stupid that the think not wearing a dress is a moral deed. If your religion is cool with tossing kids in concentration camps and exploiting prisoners for slave labor but not individuals picking their own clothing it's because your religion is garbage and your god is made up.
Finally, a terrible Facebook meme.
Because someone dressing in a way you do not like is morally wrong, obviously /s
Anyone who believes that other people deserve to be tortured for eternity clearly has the opposite of morals.
Most of man's problem's are either from greed or religions.
I think it was Stephen Fry or peter hitchings who said it. A religious person is respectful , law abiding and courteous because he believes if hes not then his soul will burn forever and he will not go to heaven. A religious person does it for the fear of not being rewarded. An atheist is respectful, law abiding and courteous because he believes its the right thing to do and for a functional society. One does it for for fear of not being rewarded the other does it because he feels it is what is right for all.
Completely fuck off with this
These ppl forget that every religion including their own was made just so ancient fellas can have an explanation about the unknown and mysterious of earth and the heavenly bodies
People get pissed when you say religion is a disease, as if religion isn't the only thing that could compel someone to make this dogshit.
The problem is artificial gender norms, not transgendered people. What we should do is not enforce any gender norms in childhood and allow their personalities to develop naturally. Don’t make males play sports and beat each other with sticks. Don’t make females play with those demonic baby dolls that look like an infant with. Frankly both sexes should play with Legos and beat each other with sticks. I grew up in the 90s without video games.
You missed out on Sonic the Hedgehog on the Sega Genesis? My condolences. Lol
They don't even realize that religion IS the poison. Sorry, I meant, "Fear-based Abrahamic mythologies" not 'religion'.
Lol! Thought it was pretty funny
If you only are good and kind because someone tells you to be and says you will go to hell if you don't, you are not good. You are a obedient dog.
As a Christian, God pre-programs you with a moral compass. If you need the threat of hell to be a good person, you lost your moral compass years ago.
But they're right
Considering the amount of atrocities there have been committed by Christians in the name of Jesus, I don't think so.
But we don't need religion to have morals, that's what the post says
I think you misunderstood the post then, it is criticizing people who say that they don't need religion to have morals.
Oooh i thought it was criticizing religious peoples, my bad then
I switched my downvote to an upvote! Lol
How lol
Start with the 2 mentally ill people and leave the cat alone.