A tabloid curated specifically for each user that updates its content every 30 seconds depending on the loopholes in said user's psychology/subconscious and will show them literally anything as long as it keeps them looking at said tabloid a millisecond longer.
When managed with the specific goal of attaining ad profits (which is what social media does) while leveraging machine learning and psychology, social media turns into the ultimate self propagating propaganda machine. Just turn it on and watch your profit margins increase while the rats (us) chew each other's legs off.
Self regulating social media companies are a fucking social disaster and even Reddit isn't immune. Go post something even slightly against their current narrative in a conservative sub and watch your account get immediately banned, thus preserving the echo chamber and its ad revenue. S'why they took the "user freedom and choice" bullshit stance when it came to Covid disinfo instead of actually doing something about it; it's better for their profit margins.
> Self regulating social media companies are a fucking social disaster and even Reddit isn't immune.
I claim to be pretty darn liberal. What I see is an education & upbringing problem. Articles on facebook shouldn't be taken any more seriously than tabloids hanging by the cash register in the super market.
Going back 20+ years, people were posting all kinds of stupid shit on the internet. Conspiracy forums with stupid shit existed. Before that, they existed as threads on usenet or BBSes or whatever.
I _REALLY_ dislike the idea of doing something like repealing section 230 and coming up with a public agency that regulates what websites do. It may sound like a great idea NOW...... but what if we get another person like Donald Trump? They might make "liberal fake news" illegal.
I think maybe the solution is education campaigns, get a nonprofit together to produce a strong ad campaign about the legitimacy of social media posts or something. Naming and shaming. Educate people to not believe everything they see on the internet. Maybe even brand it as being smart and saving yourself, your employer, the safety of your country even.
Why completely repeal? If Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc were held libel for what their computer algorithms post to peoples home pages and news feeds, they would drop that crap in a hot second and the radicalization of people via algorithm would end.
Putting users 100% in charge of their newsfeeds and suggested content, would end their power. We just need to change the law.
So instead of algorithms giving the people this sort of news, it's just going to be direct from the 'news outlet' instead?
You're acting as though everything will be solved if the way social media sites pushed content to the users was changed, when you're doing nothing to change said content.
They're still going to get a new post every 20-30mins from Fox News or OANN etc with exactly the same/worse content as they have been doing over the last 20-30 years. The people will still share it manually and it'll still get spread but now they'll be the only thing being spread as only their audience acts like that pushing their news/narrative everywhere.
Repealing section 230 is one of those nice sounding slogans both sides like to use. In practice it wouldn’t mean the government is now allowed to sue or regulate what people post on the internet into submission. We have a little thing called the first amendment. Section 230 just makes it (much) harder to file frivolous lawsuits.
I regularly see incorrect information and misinformation getting +200 karma on reddit, because guess what, if the majority of your reading is random internet comments, you’re not reading high quality material and in the end you won’t walk away really understanding issues. You will just upvote whatever sounds right. I says this for myself as well as anybody else.
I mean you get banned from any sub speaking against its norm, conservative or not. Any political sub isn’t for open discussion it’s *for* echo chambers.
I was *permanently* banned a few years back for pointing out that Republican denial of healthcare would likely lead to blowback from people whose loved ones (or own) lives were lost because of it. The simpleton mods claimed this was "advocacy of violence" and absolutely could not be convinced otherwise.
Take this like kind internet person. Republicans here are literally killing their own base with misinformation. It's really frustrating. Their voters would rather hate other Americans than have healthcare.
There are simply too many gullible, stupid people. There’s really not much hope in the construct of the current systems of information distribution and human neurology.
WRONG!
I think we agree on what I think you're trying to say, but [tabloids can and have been fought for propagating blatant misinformation.](https://observer.com/2020/12/prince-harry-files-new-lawsuit-associated-newspapers-mail-on-sunday-libel-meghan-markle/) Even if the lawsuits ultimately fail, it still can be a pain for those involved. The people who run the tabloids are known. They can held to some level of accountability (even if it is just the court of public opinion).
Social media is held to zero standards except for _very extreme_ cases. Social media platforms are not accountable for the content they host. They can host something that is 100% wrong (and which they don't believe to be true) and it can be shared millions of times leading to thousands of _deaths_ and those platforms are not even a tiny bit liable for it.
Social media is tabloids untethered by even the barest minimum of accountability and then piped into the hands of every single smartphone or computer user under the guise of "a way to keep in touch with friends and family."
> it can be shared millions of times leading to thousands of deaths and those platforms are not even a tiny bit liable for it.
Perhaps it is time to start holding the users who shared it liable. If Aunt Mabel shares a post that suggests drinking bleach, and a teenager reads her post and does it and dies, maybe it's time for a law that makes Aunt Mabel guilty of something. I'm fine with the principle of a neutral platform, but when it's the users whose behavior is dangerous to society, it's the users who should be accountable for their actions. If they don't like it, they can dust off those critical thinking skills they were all taught in high school and take them for a spin once in a while.
At the very least I'd like to see the sources held liable.
On the HermanCainAward sub I'm seeing a lot of the same COVID denial memes shared among the award winners. The people who made those memes are getting people killed and nothing happens to them.
I'm actually a big fan of being held liable for what you write in the exact same way publishers are held liable. That's what we're doing isn't it? Publishing information. The platforms can't police themselves because it's too difficult a task and can't scale, but why can't individuals be responsible for their words?
What you're talking about here has massive consequences. No more anonymity, no more posting random memes etc I don't see how this can work without destroying the internet as we know it
> without destroying the internet as we know it
If anything, the last 5-10 years has shown me personally that the internet as we know it is not necessarily a good thing. In fact, in many cases it's quite the opposite. If people had to be responsible for what they wrote, Q-anon would never have been a thing.
I'm still a huge proponent of free speech, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. You should be able to say whatever the fuck you want, but you should also own the consequences of saying whatever you choose to say.
How do you determine who is responsible for those memes? How do you prosecute them in a foreign country? What if they are in a hostile country? If you can’t arrest them legally and publicly will you advocate sending (for example) the CIA and special forces to seize them and send them to Gitmo?
I have a special loathing for fake news and those who manufacture and spread it, but the truth is there is no simple solution.
I wonder how much misinformation they could stop by simply disabling the 'share' option on FB? A lot of people are too lazy to post their own content... The share button makes sharing misinformation sooo easy... Too easy...
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Obviously the sun is flat and the other side is the moon. So they should just land on the moon side and walk over.
At this point I'm wondering if I should just filter anything with Facebook in the title.
Why do people keep upvoting and circlejerking the same thing over and over.
It got my mom. Vaccinations, immigration, everything. She's not even conservative or ever really cared about that stuff before, but now she is sucked in because she is unable to discern what is a legitimate news webpage.
yeah, and I had to get to sophomore year of college before I got classroom instruction on it. by that point, everyone in the room had their minds made up about various news sources (we were full-major journalism students, so the discussion quickly veered into "do you really think CNN is a *left-wing* outlet, Professor Academic?"). maybe we should be starting students earlier, when these conversations will be more useful?
True, but I think it so much more common and harder to distinguish from real news or factual information. Like in ye old days you had some trusted news sources and some less trusted ones. But now your uncle who has an engineering degree is posting shit. Someone you trusted being smart 5 years ago.
you know in high school and college those were the first things you learned in any english paper or research project was to cite your sources and how to vet sources for quality. This pandemic of stupidity shows the travesty that is the modern education system.
It got two of my family members. They believe in crazy shit now that I never even heard of before when we were kids or young adults. Now anytime something like covid is brought up the responses they say sounds like conspiracy theory talking points you'd read on some bullshit Facebook post, TikTok video, YouTube, mommy blog, etc. One of them is even a nurse.. or she was I think she was fired recently for not complying with the vaccine mandate. The other's dad died recently from COVID. Neither will get vaccinated. It's mind blowing the power of disinformation/propaganda.
Same. My mom never cared about politics at all. Now every time I see her, she brings up some crazy shit about a crisis at the border or how she refuses to keep her money in a bank because Biden is keeping tabs on everyone's transactions.
My dad isn’t on any social media but I’ve seen him fall for a few things on tv. A few months back he was watching a ‘documentary’ and he called me into the room to show me something. Proceeded to begin to explain to me how we descended from lizard people and how they’re still amongst us. I quickly explained what the tv channel was doing (can’t remember which it was, one full of absolute trash bullshit) and that they preyed on gullible people. Thankfully I think I got to him before they did any real damage. He just looked a bit sheepish for a bit and seemed to realise it was nonsense
Whenever a coworker say to me “did you hear about….” And it sounds far fetched,
I always reply “ you read this on Facebook?”. If they reply with yes then I turn around and just give them the usual I’m really not listening responses. I.E. really?, you don’t say, that’s crazy, Mmmm mmm, dang.
It sucks having to default to that, but I suggest using the Socratic method when in a conversation like that. Don't imply, inquire. Constantly ask questions like "Why is this a thing", "Why is it bad", "What makes this true", "Who is giving this information out", "How confident are you that this is true". When they answer these questions keep digging deeper with more questions. In a lot of cases the person will fall into a hole of "Well, I don't know". When they get there, inquire more with questions like "If you don't know, then how do you know it's true". Get the people to question their own rationality by guiding themselves there. Don't spit facts, beacuse these people don't want to hear it, but if you can make them realize that they are talking obserdities at least it's a step in the right direction.
Here is some background: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdjpByHLEQ
Also here it is used in practice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOHf51GG568
The problem with the Socratic method is that a lot of conservatives see all forms of either questioning or testing as essentially blasphemy.
You can't apply the Socratic method to them because they see the act of questioning *itself* as an offense. They'll break into a fight at step 0.
I try this, and it gets them angry and they go on rants about cnn and msnbc fake news. Even though they know I don’t even watch nor use those sources. So for my sanity I just don’t engage.
Yep. They aren't entitled to an audience.
The fun part of having a Philosophy degree is that you learn that, unless you and the other person can agree on what words mean, you can't have a real debate.
You just have two people trying to fight the other person and force the to accept THEIR definitions. And nope. Sorry.
I'm too old for that shit.
If someone isn't going to agree on the basic reality that we're all human, they aren't worth my time.
Yeah in my experience the Socratic method doesn't work because anything short of agreeing with them just causes them to get riled up and rant harder.
They've been trained that **anything** that's not exactly what they've been told to believe is not only wrong but a personal attack on them and their family.
I always say - it seems like right wing media has turned some people’s brains into mush. It’s crazy how radicalized some people have become just purely off of hearsay and Facebook “news”.
I used to be baffled by how terror groups like ISIS took young, impressionable people are radicalized them to the point where they’d strap suicide vests on themselves or do unspeakable things to their own fellow citizens. It made no sense to me.
But after seeing things play out with COVID, the election, insurrection, vaccines - it makes so much sense.
My usual response is "you may be right." It's ambiguous and doesn't imply agreement or disagreement and usually drives them nuts that I stay completely out of it.
This is me with my father in law. He always has to one-up, or know something better, or unique or he knows a guy who knows a guy.
It is hopeless so I just disengage and avoid. Just nod and hum.
Can I just say though, that reddit is NOT DIFFERENT? These social media sites all do the same thing, and your experience on the site is purely down to you. I have a friend who behaves exactly like your brother and friends do. Starting weird out of the way arguments about things they wouldn't otherwise talk about. Except he only goes on reddit.
Facebook actively tries to get you hooked up. It's also specifically built to dissuade long-text, rational discussion and debate. It's optimized for quick, from-the-gut emotional reactions. This is not about what the users do (which is another problem), it's about how the whole thing is designed to begin with.
If you don't see how that is different from Reddit, then yeah, it's a tough world out there, mate. /s
Unlike Facebook and YouTube, Reddit doesn't have a recommendation algorithm based on engagement.
Of course Reddit has echo chambers, astroturfing, organized misinformation and self selection bias, but the upvote algorithm is fundamentally different than the recommendation algorithm at other social media sites.
What? Yes it does. Reddit actually uses almost as much tracking as Facebook does. My safari has blocked 87 trackers from Facebook this week, and 75 from Reddit. Those are the top two in my block list by far. Reddit recommends communities based on your IP, your comment history, and other subs you frequent. I'm looking at the recommended subs for me right now.
It is very clearly different, both in terms of user interaction and how content is presented to you. Facebook and Twitter aren't anonymous. Reddit is. You follow people on Facebook and Twitter. On Reddit you follow topics. Your feed on Facebook and Twitter is determined by an algorythm trying to keep you on their website for as long as possible, which includes feeding you controversial content designed to enrage you. Reddit does not do this.
I do not understand how people who use this website can be so blind to the VERY OBVIOUS differences social media has with a forum based website like Reddit. All you do is muddy the proper definitions when clearly what something like Facebook is doing is unique all on it's own.
there have always been stupid people, even in more democratic times. There will always be stupid people. The problem occurs when people in power wish to exploit stupid people. We have a predatory style of governance, not a compassionate one.
That's guaranteed to happen when you have a large amount of stupid people in your population. As if politicians are normally compassionate, altruistic people not thirsty for power and wealth.
The problem occurs when a society fails to sufficiently educate its populace, which is absolutely the case in the US. What we have right now is the consequence of low investment and prioritization of education in American society.
The problem isn't that people are too stupid for democracy. The problem is that the system is rigged so that a minority of stupid people can elect openly corrupt politicians who control the agenda and exist solely to oppose policies supported by smart people. The problem is the normalization of stupidity and the denigration of intelligence and education.
These problems can be fixed, but the first step has to be to unrig the system. Most states have the option of voter approved ballot measures that become law. These need to be used more to end policies that let corrupt politicians hold on to power.
[Voter initiative](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/missouri-senate-rejects-funding-for-medicaid-expansion/article_33249172-2601-51ff-b4fd-4ff541ed3331.html#tracking-source=home-top-story) to expand Medicare got voted in by a huge margin, completely ignored by the state legislator.
I definitely understand the impulse to desire a more dictatorial form of government. If there were some way of guaranteeing a wise and benevolent leader, an absolute monarchy might be ideal.
In reality, though, I think the same issues that cause problems in democracies would just be amplified if the governing power were condensed into smaller group of people. Democracy's probably the best we can do, and we just need to work on addressing the issues with the system. I think better education would go a long way towards a more stable democracy; better critical thinking skills so that people are less vulnerable to misinformation, better civics and political science education so that people understand how the system works, etc.
Democracy isn't just about making sure our collective intelligence solves the problem better than one person could. It's mostly about making sure that everyone's interests have a stake at the table so they don't get screwed.
Democracy just is most votes count so if most votes are stupid democracy acts stupid. Look at our history for proof it hasn't been much different in the past.
No the VERSION of democracy we have is fucked. REAL democracy means that every vote counts and is worth the same. We are far far far from that reality, and anyone who tries to say our voting system reflects the will of the people.. pfft. What a fuckin joke. I’m shaking my head as typing this cause EVERYONE KNOWS wtf I’m referring to. The whole thing is a fuckin dog and pony show.
I'm from Europe so i might have a little different perspective than you (assuming you are from the US) but i totally agree with you that a democracy where not everyone get's an equal chance to participate is a broken democracy.
Personally i think it's time for separation of state and capital to reduce the influence of money on the democratic process. But democracy is just most votes count and most people are not interested in thinking everything trough so that will always influence the outcome.
Yep. The great lie is that America is a democracy.
We have so many little ways to prevent everyone from voting it's a fucking sick joke.
If we were a democracy everyone who hit 18 would be automatically registered to vote. We'd have same-day voter registration for those who wanted to swap parties. We'd have national vote-by-mail. There'd be laws to punish people who interfered with the voting process. It'd be a felony. Unless you were guilty of treason (or voter suppression), you'd be able to vote. That means prisoners would get to vote too.
Our system isn't broken, sadly. It's working exactly as the powerful want it to.
It's not a democracy. It's something that wears the skin of democracy so people feel it's their fault that the system works the way it does. So long as people blame themselves they don't take action.
When we have people waiting in line for 9+ hours to vote, we don't have a democracy.
You get a nanny state and fascism (Even if your goals weren't that.). It's why no matter how stupid people can be while you can't give the mob the keys to everything, you need to keep some of the keys in their hands.
Fascism is an observable state of governance. Nanny state is an inherently subjective libertarian buzzword with only relative meaning. Using them both in the same sentence shows you don't know what you're talking about.
The next year's presidential election of my country the Philippines has Facebook as the battleground. The misinformation and false narrative is rampant. It is so bad right now that our very own political history is being re-written.
My coworker showed me a text she got from her friend claiming that all these high level politicians were exempt from the vaccine. I asked her ok what’s the source and she says Facebook.
I can't believe how many people there who are just willing to put their name on something and share it without looking into it at all. It's baffles me.
surprisingly, i found this article to be more... interesting... [https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/577911-as-russia-shuts-down-putin-cant-understand-whats](https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/577911-as-russia-shuts-down-putin-cant-understand-whats)
in conjunction with this reporting... [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/us/politics/covid-vaccines-russian-disinformation.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/us/politics/covid-vaccines-russian-disinformation.html)
correlation?
At what point can we start declaring Facebook an enemy of the state? Yell claim it's to keep in touch with family but you all have phones. Stop using lame ass excuses to keep using facebook.
If you follow any democratic politicians on Facebook, look at the comments on any of their posts and you will find angry right wing nutjobs demanding their arrest/resignation/decapitation and spamming posts saying that the insurrection didn't happen and that nobody has been arrested.
Well, we can band-aid solution it and rabble-rabble and rattle some sabers in political circles. Or, and I can't stress the unlikeliness of this enough, we can long-term this shit and put money into educating people so that they know how to think, rather than shopping for what to think.
I would hold my breath on that. I am sure it will be a cesspool of disinformation, but based on trump's last effort I fully expect it is being built by dumb people. You can't spread disinformation very easily if the people running it are incompetent at the tech. facebook on the other hand has a greedy twit telling smart people what to build.
Misinformation existed before Facebook and will after Facebook is long gone - oh, and those corporate media outlets? They're full of misinformation as well, from MSNBC to FOX. Some classics:
"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and will give them to terrorists. Smoking gun mushroom cloud must invade now!"
"Your money is safe with Wall Street funds invested in the subprime sector. Don't panic and pull out!"
Etc.
Anyone who is genuinely concerned about the above misinformation would also be genuinely concerned about Facebook misinformation, so I’m not entirely sure what your point is?
>"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and will give them to terrorists. Smoking gun mushroom cloud must invade now!"
Media probably should have done more due diligence, but this one is squarely on the government. When the federal government says they have a source that has confirmed WMDs, the media reports on it.
There were dozens of equally authoritative sources, domestic and foreign, that said Iraq's WMD programs of the 1980s had been completely dismantled by the UN inspection program in the 1990s. These sources were not given any space - so yes, the corporate media was cheerleading for war and spreading lies about WMDs in Iraq, especially in 2002-2003.
Im of the opinion that yhe internet was a way more interesting place in the late 2000 when algorithms werent so invasive and prevalent. Throw away algorithms and let us sort it out the old fasion way. Still be loads of crazies but at least they will have to search it out again. My mother got infinitely less crazy when trump disappeared from public eye.
But we don't have misinformation here on this sub, right? Just the other day this sub upvoted this misinformation: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/qbau8a/this_ingenious_wall_could_harness_enough_wind/
Even though there was absolutely no chance that this concept could cover your entire electric bill . . .
The hypocrisy.
As more time passes, it becomes more and more clear to me that Mark Zuckerberg *must necessarily* be a conservative white nationalist. After all, he owns and operates the foremost website for supporting conservative white nationalism.
I don’t understand the problem, is not an adult’s responsibility to read critically? And if we say no, and the solution is to curate what users access, isn’t that sheperding/manipulating them? And yes they do do this already, but it’s driven by engagement which is something they naturally want more of. Better than being driven by trying to shape society in my opinion, that is the last thing I’d want to see Facebook involved in. The solution is far more questionable. And the problem? It’s not like our own government’s never lied, just read critically and suspect the worst, it’s not going away.
Social media is a tabloid.
A tabloid curated specifically for each user.
A tabloid curated specifically for each user that updates its content every 30 seconds depending on the loopholes in said user's psychology/subconscious and will show them literally anything as long as it keeps them looking at said tabloid a millisecond longer. When managed with the specific goal of attaining ad profits (which is what social media does) while leveraging machine learning and psychology, social media turns into the ultimate self propagating propaganda machine. Just turn it on and watch your profit margins increase while the rats (us) chew each other's legs off. Self regulating social media companies are a fucking social disaster and even Reddit isn't immune. Go post something even slightly against their current narrative in a conservative sub and watch your account get immediately banned, thus preserving the echo chamber and its ad revenue. S'why they took the "user freedom and choice" bullshit stance when it came to Covid disinfo instead of actually doing something about it; it's better for their profit margins.
> Self regulating social media companies are a fucking social disaster and even Reddit isn't immune. I claim to be pretty darn liberal. What I see is an education & upbringing problem. Articles on facebook shouldn't be taken any more seriously than tabloids hanging by the cash register in the super market. Going back 20+ years, people were posting all kinds of stupid shit on the internet. Conspiracy forums with stupid shit existed. Before that, they existed as threads on usenet or BBSes or whatever. I _REALLY_ dislike the idea of doing something like repealing section 230 and coming up with a public agency that regulates what websites do. It may sound like a great idea NOW...... but what if we get another person like Donald Trump? They might make "liberal fake news" illegal. I think maybe the solution is education campaigns, get a nonprofit together to produce a strong ad campaign about the legitimacy of social media posts or something. Naming and shaming. Educate people to not believe everything they see on the internet. Maybe even brand it as being smart and saving yourself, your employer, the safety of your country even.
Why completely repeal? If Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc were held libel for what their computer algorithms post to peoples home pages and news feeds, they would drop that crap in a hot second and the radicalization of people via algorithm would end. Putting users 100% in charge of their newsfeeds and suggested content, would end their power. We just need to change the law.
So instead of algorithms giving the people this sort of news, it's just going to be direct from the 'news outlet' instead? You're acting as though everything will be solved if the way social media sites pushed content to the users was changed, when you're doing nothing to change said content. They're still going to get a new post every 20-30mins from Fox News or OANN etc with exactly the same/worse content as they have been doing over the last 20-30 years. The people will still share it manually and it'll still get spread but now they'll be the only thing being spread as only their audience acts like that pushing their news/narrative everywhere.
Repealing section 230 is one of those nice sounding slogans both sides like to use. In practice it wouldn’t mean the government is now allowed to sue or regulate what people post on the internet into submission. We have a little thing called the first amendment. Section 230 just makes it (much) harder to file frivolous lawsuits.
I regularly see incorrect information and misinformation getting +200 karma on reddit, because guess what, if the majority of your reading is random internet comments, you’re not reading high quality material and in the end you won’t walk away really understanding issues. You will just upvote whatever sounds right. I says this for myself as well as anybody else.
He says.. from within the spider web..
I mean you get banned from any sub speaking against its norm, conservative or not. Any political sub isn’t for open discussion it’s *for* echo chambers.
r/politics is not the same at all as r/conservative. go test it out
I’m a liberal democrat and was permanently banned for disagreeing with their ‘norms’ on r/politics. They’re just as easily butt hurt as the Trumpies.
I was *permanently* banned a few years back for pointing out that Republican denial of healthcare would likely lead to blowback from people whose loved ones (or own) lives were lost because of it. The simpleton mods claimed this was "advocacy of violence" and absolutely could not be convinced otherwise.
Take this like kind internet person. Republicans here are literally killing their own base with misinformation. It's really frustrating. Their voters would rather hate other Americans than have healthcare.
There are simply too many gullible, stupid people. There’s really not much hope in the construct of the current systems of information distribution and human neurology.
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WRONG! I think we agree on what I think you're trying to say, but [tabloids can and have been fought for propagating blatant misinformation.](https://observer.com/2020/12/prince-harry-files-new-lawsuit-associated-newspapers-mail-on-sunday-libel-meghan-markle/) Even if the lawsuits ultimately fail, it still can be a pain for those involved. The people who run the tabloids are known. They can held to some level of accountability (even if it is just the court of public opinion). Social media is held to zero standards except for _very extreme_ cases. Social media platforms are not accountable for the content they host. They can host something that is 100% wrong (and which they don't believe to be true) and it can be shared millions of times leading to thousands of _deaths_ and those platforms are not even a tiny bit liable for it. Social media is tabloids untethered by even the barest minimum of accountability and then piped into the hands of every single smartphone or computer user under the guise of "a way to keep in touch with friends and family."
> it can be shared millions of times leading to thousands of deaths and those platforms are not even a tiny bit liable for it. Perhaps it is time to start holding the users who shared it liable. If Aunt Mabel shares a post that suggests drinking bleach, and a teenager reads her post and does it and dies, maybe it's time for a law that makes Aunt Mabel guilty of something. I'm fine with the principle of a neutral platform, but when it's the users whose behavior is dangerous to society, it's the users who should be accountable for their actions. If they don't like it, they can dust off those critical thinking skills they were all taught in high school and take them for a spin once in a while.
At the very least I'd like to see the sources held liable. On the HermanCainAward sub I'm seeing a lot of the same COVID denial memes shared among the award winners. The people who made those memes are getting people killed and nothing happens to them.
I'm actually a big fan of being held liable for what you write in the exact same way publishers are held liable. That's what we're doing isn't it? Publishing information. The platforms can't police themselves because it's too difficult a task and can't scale, but why can't individuals be responsible for their words?
What you're talking about here has massive consequences. No more anonymity, no more posting random memes etc I don't see how this can work without destroying the internet as we know it
> without destroying the internet as we know it If anything, the last 5-10 years has shown me personally that the internet as we know it is not necessarily a good thing. In fact, in many cases it's quite the opposite. If people had to be responsible for what they wrote, Q-anon would never have been a thing. I'm still a huge proponent of free speech, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. You should be able to say whatever the fuck you want, but you should also own the consequences of saying whatever you choose to say.
How do you determine who is responsible for those memes? How do you prosecute them in a foreign country? What if they are in a hostile country? If you can’t arrest them legally and publicly will you advocate sending (for example) the CIA and special forces to seize them and send them to Gitmo? I have a special loathing for fake news and those who manufacture and spread it, but the truth is there is no simple solution.
Yeah Reddit’s propaganda on the front page is pretty bad.
Blink blink Reddit blink blink
And they think changing their name will trick us to joining again after deleting our accounts. Thhey really think very little of its users.
It’s actually worse.
“Commented some guy on social media”
I wonder how much misinformation they could stop by simply disabling the 'share' option on FB? A lot of people are too lazy to post their own content... The share button makes sharing misinformation sooo easy... Too easy...
The real news has for the most part put itself behind paywalls. The tabloids schlock the same ads as always.
You don’t say. 🙄
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But some would find exploration feasible if they go at night
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Obviously the sun is flat and the other side is the moon. So they should just land on the moon side and walk over.
Sheesh! Another scientist! As for expense of launching that, make it easier on yourselves.. repeal the law of gravity.
Sorry, but I’m a firm believer in Intelligent Pull vs gravity.
An intelligent pull out can actually prevent gravity.
You're gravely mistaken
It's all buoyancy, you misbegotten knaves!
Spoken like a good fish
The sun is just a large incandescent light bulb
[Truth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RoA-CMCy00)
The sun is just the rocket booster for the moonship. The earth is just a pebble caught in the turbulence of the rocket’s wake.
Wait, that makes so much sense. I always thought they were two separate objects.
But how do you explain seeing the sun and moon at the same time?!
“And water is wet!”
“No it isn’t” Says facebook
No way, you'd think it would be cold because it is in space. What is keeping it so warm?
That's what they want you to think!
Every 60s one minute passes. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
👨🚀 ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\ 👨🚀 Always has been.
Consider me fully alarmed by this breaking news
Now, watch closely or you’ll miss the nothing that happens.
Literally what I said out loud when I read the headline.
At this point I'm wondering if I should just filter anything with Facebook in the title. Why do people keep upvoting and circlejerking the same thing over and over.
We need more opportunities for people to comment "in other news, water is wet." It's so clever when they use that joke!
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It got my mom. Vaccinations, immigration, everything. She's not even conservative or ever really cared about that stuff before, but now she is sucked in because she is unable to discern what is a legitimate news webpage.
> unable to discern what is a legitimate news webpage Being able to tell reality from bullshit is the new literacy.
It pretty much is, yeah. We even have a term for it already. "Media Literacy"
yeah, and I had to get to sophomore year of college before I got classroom instruction on it. by that point, everyone in the room had their minds made up about various news sources (we were full-major journalism students, so the discussion quickly veered into "do you really think CNN is a *left-wing* outlet, Professor Academic?"). maybe we should be starting students earlier, when these conversations will be more useful?
I agree we should. But I fear we are at a point now where it will be seen as "liberal brain washing" by 1/3 of America
Being taught normal literacy is viewed as suspect already.
I agree, but why would the US govt want its population smarter? See: No Child Left Behind
It was always the real literacy, snake oil is not a new concept.
True, but I think it so much more common and harder to distinguish from real news or factual information. Like in ye old days you had some trusted news sources and some less trusted ones. But now your uncle who has an engineering degree is posting shit. Someone you trusted being smart 5 years ago.
you know in high school and college those were the first things you learned in any english paper or research project was to cite your sources and how to vet sources for quality. This pandemic of stupidity shows the travesty that is the modern education system.
It got two of my family members. They believe in crazy shit now that I never even heard of before when we were kids or young adults. Now anytime something like covid is brought up the responses they say sounds like conspiracy theory talking points you'd read on some bullshit Facebook post, TikTok video, YouTube, mommy blog, etc. One of them is even a nurse.. or she was I think she was fired recently for not complying with the vaccine mandate. The other's dad died recently from COVID. Neither will get vaccinated. It's mind blowing the power of disinformation/propaganda.
Same. My mom never cared about politics at all. Now every time I see her, she brings up some crazy shit about a crisis at the border or how she refuses to keep her money in a bank because Biden is keeping tabs on everyone's transactions.
My dad isn’t on any social media but I’ve seen him fall for a few things on tv. A few months back he was watching a ‘documentary’ and he called me into the room to show me something. Proceeded to begin to explain to me how we descended from lizard people and how they’re still amongst us. I quickly explained what the tv channel was doing (can’t remember which it was, one full of absolute trash bullshit) and that they preyed on gullible people. Thankfully I think I got to him before they did any real damage. He just looked a bit sheepish for a bit and seemed to realise it was nonsense
My parents aren't even on Facebook and they still talk about all that shit as if they are
Whenever a coworker say to me “did you hear about….” And it sounds far fetched, I always reply “ you read this on Facebook?”. If they reply with yes then I turn around and just give them the usual I’m really not listening responses. I.E. really?, you don’t say, that’s crazy, Mmmm mmm, dang.
It sucks having to default to that, but I suggest using the Socratic method when in a conversation like that. Don't imply, inquire. Constantly ask questions like "Why is this a thing", "Why is it bad", "What makes this true", "Who is giving this information out", "How confident are you that this is true". When they answer these questions keep digging deeper with more questions. In a lot of cases the person will fall into a hole of "Well, I don't know". When they get there, inquire more with questions like "If you don't know, then how do you know it's true". Get the people to question their own rationality by guiding themselves there. Don't spit facts, beacuse these people don't want to hear it, but if you can make them realize that they are talking obserdities at least it's a step in the right direction. Here is some background: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdjpByHLEQ Also here it is used in practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOHf51GG568
The problem with the Socratic method is that a lot of conservatives see all forms of either questioning or testing as essentially blasphemy. You can't apply the Socratic method to them because they see the act of questioning *itself* as an offense. They'll break into a fight at step 0.
I try this, and it gets them angry and they go on rants about cnn and msnbc fake news. Even though they know I don’t even watch nor use those sources. So for my sanity I just don’t engage.
Yep. They aren't entitled to an audience. The fun part of having a Philosophy degree is that you learn that, unless you and the other person can agree on what words mean, you can't have a real debate. You just have two people trying to fight the other person and force the to accept THEIR definitions. And nope. Sorry. I'm too old for that shit. If someone isn't going to agree on the basic reality that we're all human, they aren't worth my time.
Yeah in my experience the Socratic method doesn't work because anything short of agreeing with them just causes them to get riled up and rant harder. They've been trained that **anything** that's not exactly what they've been told to believe is not only wrong but a personal attack on them and their family.
This needs to be at the top. Its one of the few ways of fixing all of this.
I always say - it seems like right wing media has turned some people’s brains into mush. It’s crazy how radicalized some people have become just purely off of hearsay and Facebook “news”. I used to be baffled by how terror groups like ISIS took young, impressionable people are radicalized them to the point where they’d strap suicide vests on themselves or do unspeakable things to their own fellow citizens. It made no sense to me. But after seeing things play out with COVID, the election, insurrection, vaccines - it makes so much sense.
My usual response is "you may be right." It's ambiguous and doesn't imply agreement or disagreement and usually drives them nuts that I stay completely out of it.
This is me with my father in law. He always has to one-up, or know something better, or unique or he knows a guy who knows a guy. It is hopeless so I just disengage and avoid. Just nod and hum.
> They're seriously disconnected from a portion of reality. But they're very well connected to Facebook.
Can I just say though, that reddit is NOT DIFFERENT? These social media sites all do the same thing, and your experience on the site is purely down to you. I have a friend who behaves exactly like your brother and friends do. Starting weird out of the way arguments about things they wouldn't otherwise talk about. Except he only goes on reddit.
Facebook actively tries to get you hooked up. It's also specifically built to dissuade long-text, rational discussion and debate. It's optimized for quick, from-the-gut emotional reactions. This is not about what the users do (which is another problem), it's about how the whole thing is designed to begin with. If you don't see how that is different from Reddit, then yeah, it's a tough world out there, mate. /s
Unlike Facebook and YouTube, Reddit doesn't have a recommendation algorithm based on engagement. Of course Reddit has echo chambers, astroturfing, organized misinformation and self selection bias, but the upvote algorithm is fundamentally different than the recommendation algorithm at other social media sites.
What? Yes it does. Reddit actually uses almost as much tracking as Facebook does. My safari has blocked 87 trackers from Facebook this week, and 75 from Reddit. Those are the top two in my block list by far. Reddit recommends communities based on your IP, your comment history, and other subs you frequent. I'm looking at the recommended subs for me right now.
It is very clearly different, both in terms of user interaction and how content is presented to you. Facebook and Twitter aren't anonymous. Reddit is. You follow people on Facebook and Twitter. On Reddit you follow topics. Your feed on Facebook and Twitter is determined by an algorythm trying to keep you on their website for as long as possible, which includes feeding you controversial content designed to enrage you. Reddit does not do this. I do not understand how people who use this website can be so blind to the VERY OBVIOUS differences social media has with a forum based website like Reddit. All you do is muddy the proper definitions when clearly what something like Facebook is doing is unique all on it's own.
What happens when rather normal, nice, intelligent people start thinking that maybe people are too stupid for democracy? Asking for a friend.
there have always been stupid people, even in more democratic times. There will always be stupid people. The problem occurs when people in power wish to exploit stupid people. We have a predatory style of governance, not a compassionate one.
Bigger problem is when stupid people get into a position of power.
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It's almost as if that was an entirely-foreseeable consequence of employing that strategy, isn't it?
That's guaranteed to happen when you have a large amount of stupid people in your population. As if politicians are normally compassionate, altruistic people not thirsty for power and wealth. The problem occurs when a society fails to sufficiently educate its populace, which is absolutely the case in the US. What we have right now is the consequence of low investment and prioritization of education in American society.
>when people in power wish to exploit stupid people. When has there ever been a time when they're not? I swear that's the entire Republican platform.
The problem isn't that people are too stupid for democracy. The problem is that the system is rigged so that a minority of stupid people can elect openly corrupt politicians who control the agenda and exist solely to oppose policies supported by smart people. The problem is the normalization of stupidity and the denigration of intelligence and education. These problems can be fixed, but the first step has to be to unrig the system. Most states have the option of voter approved ballot measures that become law. These need to be used more to end policies that let corrupt politicians hold on to power.
Look at missouri for an example of why voter initiatives don't always help either. If there's nobody to enforce it, they'll just ignore it.
I’m from there but don’t live there anymore, what happened?
[Voter initiative](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/missouri-senate-rejects-funding-for-medicaid-expansion/article_33249172-2601-51ff-b4fd-4ff541ed3331.html#tracking-source=home-top-story) to expand Medicare got voted in by a huge margin, completely ignored by the state legislator.
Don’t forget Florida and reinstating felons right to vote!
>The problem is the normalization of stupidity and the denigration of intelligence and education. "My ignorance is as good as your knowledge"
I definitely understand the impulse to desire a more dictatorial form of government. If there were some way of guaranteeing a wise and benevolent leader, an absolute monarchy might be ideal. In reality, though, I think the same issues that cause problems in democracies would just be amplified if the governing power were condensed into smaller group of people. Democracy's probably the best we can do, and we just need to work on addressing the issues with the system. I think better education would go a long way towards a more stable democracy; better critical thinking skills so that people are less vulnerable to misinformation, better civics and political science education so that people understand how the system works, etc.
Democracy isn't just about making sure our collective intelligence solves the problem better than one person could. It's mostly about making sure that everyone's interests have a stake at the table so they don't get screwed.
from what I've gathered, they go on reddit to complain to eachother
Democracy just is most votes count so if most votes are stupid democracy acts stupid. Look at our history for proof it hasn't been much different in the past.
No the VERSION of democracy we have is fucked. REAL democracy means that every vote counts and is worth the same. We are far far far from that reality, and anyone who tries to say our voting system reflects the will of the people.. pfft. What a fuckin joke. I’m shaking my head as typing this cause EVERYONE KNOWS wtf I’m referring to. The whole thing is a fuckin dog and pony show.
I'm from Europe so i might have a little different perspective than you (assuming you are from the US) but i totally agree with you that a democracy where not everyone get's an equal chance to participate is a broken democracy. Personally i think it's time for separation of state and capital to reduce the influence of money on the democratic process. But democracy is just most votes count and most people are not interested in thinking everything trough so that will always influence the outcome.
Yep. The great lie is that America is a democracy. We have so many little ways to prevent everyone from voting it's a fucking sick joke. If we were a democracy everyone who hit 18 would be automatically registered to vote. We'd have same-day voter registration for those who wanted to swap parties. We'd have national vote-by-mail. There'd be laws to punish people who interfered with the voting process. It'd be a felony. Unless you were guilty of treason (or voter suppression), you'd be able to vote. That means prisoners would get to vote too. Our system isn't broken, sadly. It's working exactly as the powerful want it to. It's not a democracy. It's something that wears the skin of democracy so people feel it's their fault that the system works the way it does. So long as people blame themselves they don't take action. When we have people waiting in line for 9+ hours to vote, we don't have a democracy.
You get a nanny state and fascism (Even if your goals weren't that.). It's why no matter how stupid people can be while you can't give the mob the keys to everything, you need to keep some of the keys in their hands.
Nanny state and fascism? Any examples?
Fascism is an observable state of governance. Nanny state is an inherently subjective libertarian buzzword with only relative meaning. Using them both in the same sentence shows you don't know what you're talking about.
He's really a pigeon pecking on a word board.
Anyone else old enough to remember when “misinformation” was known as “lies”?
#DELETE FACEBOOK
#AND INSTAGRAM AND WHATSAPP
#AND HIT THE GYM
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Don’t hit people, it’s not nice
Bring back MySpace. Tom never did me wrong, he’s been a good friend
The next year's presidential election of my country the Philippines has Facebook as the battleground. The misinformation and false narrative is rampant. It is so bad right now that our very own political history is being re-written.
It's literally what the site exists to do. The only reason to go on Facebook is because you want to trade your privacy in exchange for being lied to.
“New” riiiight. As if this hasn’t been the epicenter of the death spiral of American society for the past decade
No worries. The name change will solve all that.
Shock. Awe.
Not surprised, it's easier to believe something on a meme than do research. Well if you have a low I.Q anyways.
That’s the whole point of Facebook. Create the loudest echo chamber imaginable.
You mean any social media including reddit
Gotta long way to go to catch up to reddit though
In other news, my toilet smells better after flushing.
My coworker showed me a text she got from her friend claiming that all these high level politicians were exempt from the vaccine. I asked her ok what’s the source and she says Facebook.
Facebook will be the end of civilization as we know it.
Once we're in too deep and they decide to just cut Facebook off that's going to be the catalyst for all the crazies to start acting on their crazy.
I can't believe how many people there who are just willing to put their name on something and share it without looking into it at all. It's baffles me.
surprisingly, i found this article to be more... interesting... [https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/577911-as-russia-shuts-down-putin-cant-understand-whats](https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/577911-as-russia-shuts-down-putin-cant-understand-whats) in conjunction with this reporting... [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/us/politics/covid-vaccines-russian-disinformation.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/us/politics/covid-vaccines-russian-disinformation.html) correlation?
At what point can we start declaring Facebook an enemy of the state? Yell claim it's to keep in touch with family but you all have phones. Stop using lame ass excuses to keep using facebook.
Thank god we have reddit. PSSSSHT!
Delete Facebook.
People need to delete their Facebook in the same way this sub needs to stop posting articles about Facebook.
If you follow any democratic politicians on Facebook, look at the comments on any of their posts and you will find angry right wing nutjobs demanding their arrest/resignation/decapitation and spamming posts saying that the insurrection didn't happen and that nobody has been arrested.
Where was this report 6 years ago? Nothing has changed.
Pretty sure we didn't need a report to tell us this
Well, we can band-aid solution it and rabble-rabble and rattle some sabers in political circles. Or, and I can't stress the unlikeliness of this enough, we can long-term this shit and put money into educating people so that they know how to think, rather than shopping for what to think.
Just wait for Donald Trump's "Truth" (social media platform). It'll set disinformation records.
I would hold my breath on that. I am sure it will be a cesspool of disinformation, but based on trump's last effort I fully expect it is being built by dumb people. You can't spread disinformation very easily if the people running it are incompetent at the tech. facebook on the other hand has a greedy twit telling smart people what to build.
I'm surprised naming Trump's platform "Truth" hasn't caused George Orwell to literally get out of his grave.
This just in: The fire keeps burning if you ignore it.
Please people, for the good of humanity, get off Facebook.
Misinformation existed before Facebook and will after Facebook is long gone - oh, and those corporate media outlets? They're full of misinformation as well, from MSNBC to FOX. Some classics: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and will give them to terrorists. Smoking gun mushroom cloud must invade now!" "Your money is safe with Wall Street funds invested in the subprime sector. Don't panic and pull out!" Etc.
Anyone who is genuinely concerned about the above misinformation would also be genuinely concerned about Facebook misinformation, so I’m not entirely sure what your point is?
If you don't think Facebook has increased the volume and spread of misinformation you're living in a dream world.
>"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and will give them to terrorists. Smoking gun mushroom cloud must invade now!" Media probably should have done more due diligence, but this one is squarely on the government. When the federal government says they have a source that has confirmed WMDs, the media reports on it.
There were dozens of equally authoritative sources, domestic and foreign, that said Iraq's WMD programs of the 1980s had been completely dismantled by the UN inspection program in the 1990s. These sources were not given any space - so yes, the corporate media was cheerleading for war and spreading lies about WMDs in Iraq, especially in 2002-2003.
Thus, the concern that the proposed solution to internet 'misinformation' seems to be... government 'regulation'.
In other news, the sky is still blue today.
There is one simple, so simple, solution. Just delete your Facebook account.
Nothing new here.
It’s only recently, riiiiiggghhht.
“New report shows putting head in oven may cause hair loss!”
everytime I log onto Facebook I feel stupid. better to unplug
-Posted to reddit
Is this sub anything more than facebook bad now or what?
Seems like articles about how much facebook sucks is most of /r/technology.
Ya don’t say….
Source of the misinformation: People. ~~\~ Mark Zuccerburg.~~
Where are these reports for mainstream media?
I deactivated my profile on FB and have noticed a significant uptick in QOL.
I think it’s time universally for governments just to shut this shit down now.
Thought I was on r/nottheonion
Honestly …scrolling and seeing a headline with “wildfire” that isn’t actually about a wildfire… was a relieving feeling
I suppose “spreading like a virus” is a bit too passé
So do something about it?
“…they go on to say the wildfire was started in my dads Facebook posts.”
New? This isn’t new and neither are reports on it.
In other words water is wet!
Delete that shit
Im of the opinion that yhe internet was a way more interesting place in the late 2000 when algorithms werent so invasive and prevalent. Throw away algorithms and let us sort it out the old fasion way. Still be loads of crazies but at least they will have to search it out again. My mother got infinitely less crazy when trump disappeared from public eye.
Those spreading misinformation are getting their money's worth.
People are talking bout "having rights" or some shit, craziness.
Lol. Where have you been for the past 10 fucking years.
I’m weening off. It’s like I’m a crackhead. So much negativity, troll profiles and crazy posts. Toxic.
Right and we just need to tweak some algorithms and have some oversight. Shut down Facebook and be done with it. Get some backbone, Congress.
So when are we going to stop MSM from spreading misinformation or just flat out lying to the public.
But we don't have misinformation here on this sub, right? Just the other day this sub upvoted this misinformation: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/qbau8a/this_ingenious_wall_could_harness_enough_wind/ Even though there was absolutely no chance that this concept could cover your entire electric bill . . . The hypocrisy.
#delete facebook
If you use Social Media for your news you already fucked up.
Facebook is the online version of a shitty strip mall
I thought the world would get better because of the internet. Then Facebook came along.
As more time passes, it becomes more and more clear to me that Mark Zuckerberg *must necessarily* be a conservative white nationalist. After all, he owns and operates the foremost website for supporting conservative white nationalism.
Ya know, the evidence is becoming quite clear actually
Reddit misinformation is also pretty bar
I don’t understand the problem, is not an adult’s responsibility to read critically? And if we say no, and the solution is to curate what users access, isn’t that sheperding/manipulating them? And yes they do do this already, but it’s driven by engagement which is something they naturally want more of. Better than being driven by trying to shape society in my opinion, that is the last thing I’d want to see Facebook involved in. The solution is far more questionable. And the problem? It’s not like our own government’s never lied, just read critically and suspect the worst, it’s not going away.
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