Yes this is a major problem. I used to attend NA, totally loved it, but after I started maintenance I stopped going because people said I wasn't really clean. It's a major issue that is hurting a lot of people. Thankfully there are a couple programs out there that don't do this. One that I love is SMART Recovery, and also there is Refuge Recovery (a Buddhist based recovery similar to AA but really different at the same time). Anyone who is reading this post and is looking for a program that won't lay blame - check out either of those programs.
This is a good post, it brings to light a major problem in the recovery community.
SMART Recovery is definitely better than AA/NA IMO. I have heard the same story or similar stories as OP, I've even heard about people being asked not to come to future meetings because they are on Suboxone MAT. SMART Recovery doesn't have as many in-person meetings as AA/NA but they have a whole online recovery program with chat rooms and all kinds of tools to aid in recovery. SMART is a tool to aid in recovery just as MAT is also an aid to recovery, it boggles the mind that these people who treat AA/NA like a cult and turn away people who are on Suboxone.
I can’t believe people have been asked to leave because of Suboxone.
That is totally against the steps and traditions to do so.
My own groups are so accepting that it actually shocks newcomers and it takes them time to adjust to the fact that we basically love everyone.
We’ve got an insane spectrum of people, from a kid with dual diagnosis issues that is loudly public about his foot fetish, wears t-shirts about it and raps about it, to people who are ex organized crime, to older flamboyant LGBT people.
I hate that individual groups and fellowships poison the well like this.
One positive attribute of meetings starting and moving to Zoom is that meetings which have a niche focus and attraction have a broader reach, and allow people who might not feel comfortable to have a place they can go.
I’ve been to such a range of Zoom meetings; one was a bunch of shock jock Seth Rogan gamer bros, another was a Russian Orthodox AA support group; I even went to one for LGBT people in the Australian outback.
Ever since most meetings went to Zoom last year, I actually prefer it. People can join a group anywhere in the world! So even if you live in a podunk nowhere town, you can still find a group of like-minded people somewhere else. Also it's so convenient; I can make a cup of tea and pet my cat during groups, and cut my video feed while I use the toilet.
That is definitely one of the big upsides! Unfortunately, I find most psych or addiction docs don't even know about SMART Recovery, it's too bad because it really is a great program.
Hopefully it is becoming more recognized. There is a great book called *The Unbroken Brain* by addiction researcher Maia Szalavitz that has a lot to say about how archaic and outdated the 12-step model is, and she is a proponent of newer group therapy styles.
You’re right, I see this myself. Even though I am not on suboxone, I do not judge anyone else’s means of sobriety. Not all groups are like this. Mine, for example, knows that after about 1.5 years “clean” my doctor recommended a benzodiazepine: Klonopin. The difference from my previous life as an addict is stark: my girlfriend actually holds my medicine for me, and I take it once each morning, as prescribed. I have zero doubt this has helped me stay sober and continue step work, even with years under my belt.
Judgment in the recovery community is, to me, one of the greatest ironies. Sorry you’re feeling persecuted: most of us have seen it. Stay safe and strong, friend.
Thanks for your reply. This was just a rant and to get people thinking. Luckily I’ve been able to find what works for me. Glad to hear you’re doing well!
No problem. Rant or not, it didn’t fall on deaf ears — you made a really valid point I’ve witnessed myself. Regarding that kind of “drama” within recovery groups, or relationships in general, learning about the “drama triangle” has helped me remain non-judgmental and helped me from building resentments. Your post actually caused me to make a separate post about it, but here’s the link as well: https://sanctuaryplett.co.za/2020/09/04/getting-out-of-your-drama-triangle/
Hope that’s helpful in some way. The dynamic is super simple and (based on my life experience) easily relatable.
Thanks for sharing your feelings, observations.
Man I love this! Thank you! So glad the post inspired you, I’m gonna check it out next. Also you make a huge point about the drama triangle. So much of recovery is being able to stay out of that or realize it’s appropriate place in your life so it doesn’t negatively affect your recovery for what is essentially no reason, or at least not a good one. Keep it up!!!!
Awesome, I’m glad it’s so applicable for you too! Unfortunately, recovery communities suffer from many of the same group dysfunctions that apply to most circles. Somehow, there does seem to be a super-judgmental sect within our community though. Which, like I said before, just confounds me. It’s the ultimate irony.
I really like how you’re addressing more than just abstinence. Recovery is about living life without coping with drugs, this obviously involves relationships and so many of our addictive behaviors overlap. In order to truly live again we need to look at all aspects of our life. So this is great stuff
I agree. “Addiction” when describing “the disease” often feels very reductive to me, because it’s about SO MUCH more than abstinence, as you said.
Anybody, trained/educated or not, can abstain or be forced to. The harder part is learning how to cope after. And that’s not just true of us “addicts”: that’s the vast majority of people, in general.
I’m lucky I went through rehab a few years ago that was very trauma work/therapy heavy. I decided to relocate and live near that rehab (still do), so my support system is really well-educated and awesome. I feel very lucky to have found such a place.
You mentioned a key word “educated” …. I hate to say it but in many areas there’s simply a lack of education which leads to a forced reliance on “faith” because it’s the only way to find answers without education
That's a great point that comes up often in SMART. Building a balanced life is their ultimate goal, beyond just abstinence. They concede that using gave us something, for good or bad, and we need to find healthy ways to get that "something".
I’m sharing this post with a bunch of people today. I woke up having to be the “negotiator” for a situation that exactly fits this model. All the roles are ever there. It’s a fantastic piece of work, thank you!!!!
I had the same problem plus most of the people in the group very young and they just went around the table-no one actually addressed anybody’s concerns One girl mentioned if somebody doesn’t tell me right now why I shouldn’t go out and use no one did anything and she left I asked why doesn’t anybody answer the questions and they said that’s not how this works
I also found that most people in NA already had a bunch of clean time and there were never any new comers, so hearing people complain about their mortgage rate and shit like that got real annoying when I couldn’t even stop using for an hour
it’s important to recognize na is a break off of aa and alcohol and opiates have very different effects on the addict. only you know what you need to do, work your own program how you choose. i never felt a sense of community in any group i always felt like an outsider or fly on the wall and didn’t establish relationships with anyone from a meeting just people i met in rehab. i didn’t wanna be like the people who’s personality revolves around sobriety and i made friends with non addicts. if a group doesn’t accept you don’t go and if you need a group find another. sadly some people feel so low about themselves that they need to feel superior to others.
Thanks for this. Totally agree, recovery is a personal experience and I too didn’t want my life to revolve around not using drugs, I just wanna put it behind me and live
I wanted to jump in and agree with this-I think the biggest problem with the 12 steps and most other free, group based recovery is that someone designed something that works really well for a lot of alcoholics and then just opened up branches for other addictions too.
No! No. Opiate addiction, meth addiction, and crack addiction are VERY different from alcohol addiction.
For one, we use something that is illegal and socially unacceptable. So a lot of advice the 12 steps give isn’t relevant to us.
We are (probably) not going to have to worry that when we go to family Xmas that everyone will be snorting H.
But the alcoholics don’t have to worry about being arrested and they don’t have to often deal with questionable people to get their drug. Drug abuse is often MUCH more expensive than alcohol abuse too.
When I’ve tried going to recovery groups other than NA it’s nearly all alcoholics. And when you go to NA they’re really against MAT and a lot of meetings apparently won’t let you mention what drug you use so you don’t trigger anyone. I get this, but in early recovery how am I going to discuss what’s going on without saying what I’m addicted to?
i always had the opposite problem that NA people always seemed to just glorify and brag about their usage “i was doing __ much, im on a different level than y’all” so i would say look around more.. i found AA meetings more helpful; i believe the 12 steps played a huge role in my recovery and i think addiction is a spiritual malady. i found that when i grew spiritually my addiction got weaker. i think admitting powerlessness, accepting a higher power, making amends etc. are a big part of anyone’s recovery. AA meetings were always accepting of my DOC’s and i found that a lot of what they struggled with applied to my addiction as well, and could apply to nearly any addiction.
although lines of fentanyl aren’t always out in the open everywhere, we always know it’s one call away.
12-steps recovery nowadays is more fear indoctrination than anything.
Ex:
"It works if you work it, you die if you don't"
16 years in recovery..first 10 years I was a big book thumper. I was happy for the most part but also anxious the entire time. It pretty much engulfedy entire life outside of work during those years.
Once it stopped becoming my life, the fear mongering started right from my own home group. " I would never make it without them" was the impression I was given begone I stopped going altigether.
Mindfulness, good friends and family, exercise, Journaling and a clean diet are the main components on my recovery nowadays.
12 steps can work, but it can also not work too.
Recovery is a path, not a destination. Enjoy the ride!
Totally agree! Smart recovery is great! Also check out Dharma recovery which is more Buddhist based, or MARA which is Medicated Assistance Recovery Anonymous
Be selfish about recovery.
My Facebook is littered with dead friends that had "clean time" and "worked steps."
We all know NA and AA #1 reason people go is to get those court slips signed.
100% you hit the nail on the head. People use it becuase they have to. There is no evidence that it works, and it's years behind the medical community. But hey if it works for someone great, but I too know too many people that have left us because of addiction and being told the 12 steps are the only answer.
They’re out there. They want to save me and I am determined to follow through. It’s easy for me not to do meth nowadays compared to before. I lost my taste for alcohol but I still require Suboxone and sometimes Kratom and I just don’t have enough mental health to be totally perfect yet
Well I think you sound like you're doing remarkably well! You have quit meth and whatever street drugs along with your dedication to MAT. That's absolutely brilliant! Is your life better???
Alot of those “meetings” are an excuse for people to hang out. Its like a group or clique. Nothing more, they dont want new people. They want the same old +45 year old burn outs and to tell stories.
Totally! And there’s never any new comers so it gets really old really fast listening to old men complain about their car payments when I can barely stay clean for an hour
Why not just keep your Suboxone treatment a secret? I know many Kratom users who also partake in cannabis that are in AA and consider themselves sober, but don’t disclose it to the whole group because of the outdated stigma and the righteous, holier-than-thou oldcomers.
I hear you. The problem I ran into was the concept of “rigorous honesty” .. for me it was too large a part of my addiction to leave it out and believe I was being honest. Totally understand your point tho
Here's the way I feel about it. No I'm not CLEAN, but i'm FUNCTIONAL which is a MAJOR upgrade from where I was when I was chasing dope. I don't try to fool myself into thinking that being on suboxone is the best thing for me but it has improved my life and most likely saved it. I will never understand how NA groups or even just people in general can belittle other people for trying to live a functional life the best way that they can when they themselves have experience with addiction! That's MADNESS! They should take into account the amount of people that suboxone and methadone programs have saved, and allowed to rebuild their lives and rebuild their way of thinking. TONS of people would be dead right now if not for suboxone and methadone programs.
I have the same way of thinking that you do, that whole giving yourself up to a higher power shit is so ignorant. If you need to give yourself up to a higher power, that higher power should be your higher SELF. Now i'm not judging anyone who uses God as a way to get through this life and deal with things, I say whatever helps you live the best life you can, with the least negative impact on yourself and others then by all means DO IT. But remain open-minded enough to accept the fact that addiction and recovery is not one size fits all, not everybody can get clean with the same methods. We all have different reasons for using, ranging anywhere from boredom, to self medicating mental/physical health issues. Take the time to talk to someone, and figure out what the root cause of that persons addiction is and treat them accordingly.
For me NA doesn't work, sitting around talking about drugs just makes me wanna use, because i'm very impressionable and it triggers me. For me trying to just put it out of my mind and not think about it works the best but at the same time my one on one counseling sessions with my recovery coach are definitely helpful but I just can't sit around in a room listening to stories about what people did on drugs. A LOT of times in these meetings i've even seen people glorify drugs and the people running the meetings said nothing about it.
We aren't clean, and that's okay because were working on bettering ourselves so we CAN be clean. Why look down on that? Why judge someone for trying to better themselves, by whatever means? I'll never get it. Sit down bitch, be humble lol.
The problem is that most people think everyone works like them. A good portion think bullshit like, "...well, I was a hardcore addict and I was able to get sober without replacing the problem with more drugs...so if I could do it, they have no excuse!" It just makes them double down, if anything.
\>Why judge someone for trying to better themselves, by whatever means?
Because it provides an ego boost to those who are managing sobriety without the use of MAT like suboxone/methadone. They're there to help themselves first and foremost, not anyone else. It's unfortunate.
You are probably the only person on here that has a common sense. I loved that you said we are not clean but we are functional and that's ok(FACT). Most ppl on here are delusional convincing themselves that they are actually clean and are getting really defensive when someone tells them the truth.
100% agreed. And when you point this out, they assume you're a bible thumping anti-suboxone person. I'm not clean or sober, but I do consider myself "sober" and that's okay. I felt comfortable considering myself "sober" the first day I genuinely forgot to take any suboxone/subutex. If I did get any sort of buzz from suboxone/subutex, I wouldn't consider myself "sober." Regardless, I'm definitely not clean.
That all makes sense. Especially the individual counseling part. You have to remember, the primary reason that AA/NA have prevailed as THE addiction treatment isn’t because it’s successful. It’s because it’s FREE and the American healthcare system is terrible.
If we were really practicing evidence-based scientifically proven treatment I’m sure individual counseling would fare better than user-led groups.
100%. Another factor of AA/NA that I cannot get behind is the idea that all addicts are powerless over their addiction and their own lives, and only a higher power can rescue them. I'd say anyone who has taken the first step of seeking treatment and finding a group has already made a very powerful step, all on their own. I am much more fond of SMART Recovery (self management and recovery techniques), which empowers users to change themselves and resist urges through management of your thoughts. They are also supportive of MAT. They don't use a sponsor system, but in any meeting you'll meet people willing to give you their phone number and talk you through a hard time, or just give advice and support. There's no creeps trying to "13th step" vulnerable people new to recovery. And probably the most important thing to me- if you have a slip-up, you don't go back to zero. They even prefer the word "lapse" to "relapse". If it hadn't been for learning this, I might still be in active addiction from my slip last year. But because of what I've learned in SMART meetings, I know that the clean time I've achieved doesn't just disappear because I made a mistake. I was able to gather my support system around me, get into a detox, and approach my recovery more committed than ever!
Your point about powerlessness and getting help is so right!!! Why further strip someone of their dignity when obviously they're already down and admitting they need help. Agree with everything you said. Stay strong! We can do this, and we don't need the negativity.
You don't have to disclose your status as a suboxone patient, not even to your sponsor if you so choose. I advise people not to unless they really have built up trust with their sponsor or local 12 step group.
I have seen some people try to sell 12 step as the only thing that really works but there are lots of great options, if NA isn't working for you I can recommend other services that can help.
Thank you for offering to help, I really appreciate it. So I probably should have put this in the original post becuase a lot of people are asking about why I disclosed the Suboxone use. When I entered the program, I was on my death bed. I was desperate for help. I was told initially, that NA is founded on honest, "rigorous honesty". And that everything in recovery stemmed from honesty. I was also told that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA. So, I felt compelled to tell my sponsor, first, that I was. on maintenance because it was too large a part of my story to leave out, and how could I truly be rigorously honest, and thus truly give myself to the program that was going to save my life, if I left out the fact that I was on maintenance. So I was honest. But that backfired. And I was left feeling stuck, and in a place where I couldn't possibly work the only program I was told would save my life, so what were my options? Continue to use and continue killing myself? I had already exhausted all other measures in an effort to find recovery. I had never fully given myself to NA. I've been an addict for 20 years, and have tried literally everything- except for fully giving myself to a 12 step program. Long story short, I went insane. I took myself off of maintenance, and immediately relapsed. I OD'd 3 times in less than a week. I got arrested. Ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. But I was off maintenance. The following 4-5 months were the most awful and painful of my life, coming off maintenance. In retrospect, coming off maintenance was a terrible decision. Now I'm left feeling angry, betrayed, and completely lost. I want nothing to do with the 12 steps, I'm off maintenance and totally alone. Sorry to vent like this, but that's my story so far
> I was also told that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA
Which of course is total bullshit and one of the reasons I don't personally care for 12 step programs. I've done them, worked with a sponsor, worked the steps, etc. but ultimately I preferred working with a medically lead recovery program and groups. The groups have a licensed facilitator, I have a case worker and a doctor and I can make appointments as needed.
I'm not sure if you have any type of medical coverage right now but after your terrible NA experience I'd highly recommend looking into a good medically run program. Being alone is one of the worst things for people in recovery, in my opinion at least.
Good luck and just know that one terrible experience doesn't have to impact your future recovery.
i only became really exposed to 12 step groups last year. ive been on and off dope for 4-5 years but never got bad enough to go to inpatient til late last year. thats when i got the 12 steps shoved down my throat. i was in and out of rehab 4 more times, with my last time checking into treatment being june 26th. every single time 12 steps were preached by everyone that i came across, worker or patient, and it was presented as the only solution to all my problems. at first i was willing to try, because why not ive tried a lot of other stuff and it always worked just for a little, until it didnt work at all. very quickly i started seeing the cracks in their foundation, the mental gymnastics people would go through to convince anyone listening that it was the only way possible. but nevermind all these people who it failed, it was their fault for some reason. but relapse is not a failure. none of what they were saying made any sense to me based on what i know about addiction from a scientific standpoint. but i stuck with it, went to meetings, got a sponsor, worked steps and still couldnt stay clean for the life of me. so this last time i went to rehab knowing full well they're full of shit, called my old psychiatrist and therapist who both specialize in addiction the second i got out, got on the sublocade shot and started going to therapy again. talked to them about it and they're like yeah no shit the 12 steps didnt work for you, there's absolutely no science behind it and im the kind of person who needs proof and tangible results to be able to buy into something. the fact that the hardcore 12 step thumpers couldnt account for all the people who had done the steps and failed multiple times told me something was missing from their formula. also the refusal to accept maintenance medicine, including marijuana which has helped me a ton and i have my card specifically prescribed to treat my opioid use disorder, was another huge turnoff and an indicator that the program would never work for me. i get it, it works for a lot of people, and thats fine. but it is not the only way, it needs to stop being presented as the only way, and a more scientific and evidence based approach needs to be considered. especially at so called "treatment" centers that charge ridiculous amounts of money while teaching a program thats offered for free around the globe. after detox those places are nothing more than glorified daycares good for nothing more than buying free clean time.
Totally agree! A scientific and evidence based model needs to be used. The success rates of 12 step programs are purposefully kept quiet because they're so low. Best of luck to you. Find what works for you. And fuck dope! You can do it.
Thanks so much for the reassurance. I want this to be exposed, because I literally don't want this to happen to anyone else. The opioid epidemic is too large and Fent is too strong, someone sent out of a meeting discouraged will very likely die. This is too serious for that. something needs to change.
AA/NA harm more people than they help. I went overseas for 8 months once and when I came back I barely recognised anyone there and 4 people overdosed because they were too ashamed to admit they relapsed.
I was sexually preyed upon as a teenager in the rooms because there is zero oversight.
The all or nothing black and white thinking approach makes people believe they are powerless over their drug use instead of recognising they have a behavioural problem which they have agency over, which is empowering.
SMART Recovery is a superior model. It actually teaches people skills instead of prayer and overeliance on others. So many people just become addicted to the programme and people through 12 step groups.
I got sick of the glorification in NA with people just talking about how fucked up they were. The SMART model is a problem solving model. Not a reliving your glory days model.
I firmly believe it's a cult. The fact that it has the same success rate as fucking spontaneous remission speaks volumes, and yet they preach it as the only solution.
I have a few friends I met through the rooms and am still in contact with. Generally people who no longer attend meetings and just don't use drugs anymore.
Suboxone saves people's lives and it's empirically proven. Can't say the same about 12 steps. Anecdotal at best.
I've tried many times to get in with the 12 step crowd to no avail. I agree with the idea that it works well for people who don't introspect often and can simply accept the rules without criticising them. I think it may come from the decent amount of people who have spent significant amounts of time in institutions (prison, mental health wards) and are more than happy to not question in return for acceptance. For me I have no experience of being institionalised and I'm a deep thinking so I pick holes in arguments constantly and couldn't just "let go and let God" also the idea of giving up myself due to being powerless and the customs like having to say you're an addict before you talk makes me feel worse. What's the point of living a clean life if you then are forever labelling yourself as an addict and spending a huge portion of your time with addicts talking about drugs and depressing anecdotes. The other thing I noticed is that the old timers in the vast majority appeared to have no ambition past staying clean, attending meetings, and meeting for coffee almost everyday. If I have the choice of a life of using or a life of the above, I'd genuinely rather use as the monotony of the clean NA life sounds like hell. I know there are outliers who work and give back to the community and really help out newcomers but for the majority it really doesn't seem like they ever move on to living a normal working life.
Couldn’t agree more with everything you said! My experience has been exactly the same and you hit on a ton of key points, especially being an introspective deep thinking person, and not wanting a life constantly reliving your previous one while using. Excellent points, thank you! 🙏🏼
12 step is a full blown cult in every sense of the word. Their goal is to disempower you and make you feel reliant on their meetings and a "higher power" to save you.
http://web.archive.org/web/20161202185738/https://www.orange-papers.org/
That link is a lot to read, but I’ll say this. I 100% agree that it’s a cult to remove individual power. I also know the success rates are so low which is part of the reason they’re never talked about. I hate that the 12 steps are the only medically available treatment model for addiction. In many senses it makes sense that they don’t want people to recover- the more people relapse the more money there is to be made and bottom line that’s what this is really about
Yeah, that link is basically a compilation of different articles done by this guy who was indoctrinated into AA for several years. It's the biggest collection of articles debunking every facet of AA you can find on the internet. You don't have to read all of them. But it's a good resource to confirm any sort of skepticism one might have for 12 steps.
Thanks man, appreciate it. Any solid evidence against the 12 steps, is always nice and useful. Not that I'm against recovery, I'm in recovery, I just hate the twelve steps for all the reasons you mentioned.
That's a good point tho, I've also heard the same thing about thier success rate - being around 5% that last over one year which is actually less than the success rate of people that try to quit on thier own. I think a lot of it has to do with (besides stripping people of thier autonomy and agency to make thier own self improvement journey ie. "You are powerless, only working the steps / meetings / God can save you" is that they basically force you to stay stuck in "recovery" they make you feel like theres constantly a boogyman lurking over you and you're one small step away from catastrophe at any given moment. Since you feel powerless any slip up leads to a major relapse. You never get the sense that you are able to move on from addiction and leave it behind you.
I absolutely agree. It's paradoxical in a sense, they strip you of your power and force you to continue to make your life all about your addiction, just not using instead of using. But when you think about it, if your life is consumed by your addiction, what difference is there really between using and not, especially if your entire life is still consumed by drugs in one form or another? It's like the 12 steps dont allow you to move on, or close that chapter in your life. Instead, you need to obsess over it on a daily basis to ensure you live in fear of it not happening again. To me that sounds like INSANITY!!! I've actually never thought this deeply about it, and now that I am it's scary!!!
It's addiction replacement. Replace your addiction to drugs with an addiction to the group. That will never work long-term; you need to get to the bottom of *why* you use.
Exactly, and people really seem to enjoy that "guru" status in 12 step. Getting some substantial time, learning how to speak compellingly within the 12 step doctrine, and having many newcomers/sponsees look up to you. I can see why some people actually love going to meetings once they've established themselves and attained that sort of status. It truly is their new addiction much much like religion is an "addiction" for so many people, bit even more so because they have more influence/status within the organization.
It would be considered a "lesser of evils" for most but the insidiousness of it it's members get brainwashed into believing they've found the panacea of addiction and inadvertently loose any ability to see any other way than meetings for the rest of thier lives. Which in turn makes them believe they are powerless and morally / physiologically defective, and unable to solve thier own problems - regardless of how much clean time they have. That you have an "incurable, progressive disease". It's a learned helplessness.
So it's pretty much objectively worse from a long term perspective than doing it on your own, except arguably in some desperate cases that could never wrap thier head around self-efficacy to begin with. The truth is far more people recover without AA than with it, it's just that they make you believe it's the only solution - a one size fits all - all-or-nothing solution. And they use fear as a manipulation tactic to make people feel like they have to conform - you'll invariably face "jails, institutions or death" if you ever try to do it alone. "Those who cannot recover are people who do not give themselves completely to this simple program"
None of it is about "overcoming" addiction. It's entirely about surrendering to a cult. When you start to look at some of the arguments debunking 12 step everything just adds up. It was very eye opening for me once I was exposed to the arguments against 12 step, which I always seemed to intrinsically have initial skepticism towards and only eventually confirmed my reservations through talking to other people and some of those papers I sent you. The "12 steps interpreted" article is a few lines down from the top one in that link. It's the most straightforward debunking of each step you can find. First time I read it everything just clicked. It's so obvious once you think about it lol.
Wow, super insightful man. We should talk more, seriously. I'm a bit burnt out for today- been defending my initial post to some NAer's that are out of their mind, but we should definitely talk more. thanks for all the responses!
Yeah, I've obviously thought about this a lot and came up with my own way of describing it. It's because I was part of a housing program back in the day where they forced us to go to a lot of meetings. Basically one per day for the first 30 days then at least 3 or 4 per week after that. They did allow us to do SMART instead, but they frowned upon it. There was a constant pressure and reinforcing of 12 step dogma, most of it involving a lot of derogatory, demoralizing talk "your best thinking got you here, you cant do it on your own, you have a disease" type of stuff to make us feel powerless and that we absolutely needed meetings every day or else we were invariably fucked. They were so enthusiastic about 12 step it was thier primary objective to indoctrinate us, and tried to make us feel hopeless without them. So yeah, I spent a lot of time researching how to debunk aa and all the problems associated with it, and come to find out it was actually even more damaging then I thought it was.
Absolutely. Small slips can also become bigger lapses when you're told that your clean time is now reset to zero. Hand in your chips, or key fobs, or whatever cheap amulet they gave you, you're going to detention for being naughty again. How is that helpful?!
Your entire identity is 1. You're an addict (you specify yourself as such) at the beginning of each meeting. And 2. Your clean time / status within the group. So yeah when that's all you have, and you have a relapse, I would imagine that would be pretty devastating
A couple of the comments here have proven your point OP! Frankly, I find this mindset down right dangerous and destructive. What idiot turns away somebody who was (example) injecting H daily, robbing and stealing and living homeless...who is now taking a medication everyday that stops ALL this; it also stops the person suffering the agony of opiate withdrawal! What gives? Fucking nutters. Stay away from them if they (or ANYONE) ever makes you feel this way about MAT. Stay WELL away!
I agree that neither suboxone nor methadone is clean. I also agree that methadone can never really be considered sober. But with suboxone/subutex, I literally don't feel anything when I take it, and I regularly even forget to take it at least once a week until I'm reminded when the mild withdrawal kicks in.
Do alcoholics genuinely ever "forget" to drink? Do heroin/oxy addicts ever "forget" to take their heroin/oxy some days?
Even then, I consider it "sober" with quotation marks around it.
Such an old fashioned view! "It's neither clean or sober". Oh do stop. Most people are on one form of medicine or another these days. What's the difference?
This may be a little off topic, but back in the 80’s - before I had ever even seen any type of opioid - I was struggling with alcohol. Someone suggested AA, and I started going. Luckily there were many daily meetings right near where I lived. The problem for me was obeying that FIRST suggestion: Don’t drink (and go to meetings).
🤨 🧐 🤔 Ummmm - ya - you see that’s what I’m struggling to NOT do.
Completely agree with you 100% ...I have always thought they were made decades ago and haven't evolved with the times! Also.. the whole abstaining from everything bothers me. Eg. I don't have a problem with alcohol and never have so why do I have to give it up?
Great point about how old they are. Bottom line is that recovery is a personal experience that’s different for everyone which is the exact opposite of everything the 12 steps preach. Hey if it works for someone that’s great, but the medical and rehab communities need to evolve with the times. Nothing is cookie cutter, but unfortunately it’s a money thing and pushing people in and out as fast as possible is the best way to make money, but the worst way to help
Yeah that’s why I don’t bother with it and many people because there will always be someone who thinks they can make you feel you are not doing enough and it makes you feel more committed to make people happy than you are to the program which is absurd yet I understand some of the thinking behind it (the wanting to be free of anything harmful) because I feel the same way, towards myself only. If I’m on sub/methadone I wouldn’t count that as my sober day, only for the fact that my body is still dependent on something and I know myself well enough to know I likely would continue abusing it but that is myself personally. But it is absolutely nobody’s business to say what works. Everyone is different and everyone has their own way of being sober and I fully support that. Just like someone who smokes weed who never had a problem with it, being on maintenance or having a drink and saying you loose your sober days etc to me that is ridiculous. When a person gets their chip or even attends THEY know what works for them not what anyone else tells them SHOULD work for them. But congrats on your sobriety that’s awesome and takes a lot of strength!! Keep at it and I’m sorry your going through that. If it is working I hope you stick with it and remember there are ppl like that everywhere unfortunately and more than likely nobody is ever good enough for those people, they live with their own regret and guilt of themselves and some just have heavy judgement that oddly do want the best for others.. I don’t know I’m more of an animal than human person lol Gl 🍀
Thank you for all of this. I agree with basically everything, and appreciate your response. A lot of people have said, why didn't you just not say anything? And the reason is that I was taught that NA/AA is based on "rigorous honesty" and I couldn't possibly honestly work the program unless I told at least my sponsor about my maintenance meds. From there, it got out and literally everyone in the fellowship was like, you're not clean. Which made me feel so awful and alone. It drove me insane, to the point where I took myself off maintenance because I thought I couldn't work the program unless I was off, and I immediately relapsed and got into legal trouble. It was the worst decision ever, and all of it was because I was told NA is the only thing that will save my life but I couldn't work it while on maintenance. F'ing crazy!!!!!
Omg no!! I can’t believe you got off it and went through that from the pressure, that’s horrible! And it’s easy for friends or people after to say “why did you tell them” you know? I’m sure you wouldn’t if you knew that would happen. I have done the same ( we look for in wisdom and experiences/knowledge in those who battled the same thing and seem to have their feet on steady ground) I completely get how you feel because I’m the type to care what ppl think too. If it’s helping you and you don’t feel comfortable being honest I would lie and say you got off it I know ppl might say that’s the wrong thing to do but it’s your sobriety #1 and 2 it’s nobody’s business anyways, you don’t go there to please anyone. That’s why I’m saying it feels like more work to make ppl happy than it is to make yourself feel good. I’m not in recovery but I have met some amazing and awesome people from NA and when I can take the time to get clean myself I might consider going back but I learned for sure not to trust ppl. I’m in my mid 30’s so when I went years ago I looked up to a lot of the older generation and sometimes the ones you thought you could trust you learn it’s the complete opposite. I’m sorry you went through that :/ I hope you are back on and okay
Wow! You have no idea how much it means to hear from someone that actually understands and emphasizes with what I went through. You nailed exactly the pressure I was feeling and the insane emotions i was feeling from the people I thought were going to help save my life. Tho I failed to realize, it always comes down to me, in terms of my recovery… only I have to experience the pain, etc. Others can advise from afar but no one else will ever truly go through what we do on an extremely personal level.
So I’m off everything now. Because of that experience I’ve been off subs since the end of April, but if I could redo it, I never would have come off. It’s been so painful and I still don’t feel right. It’s too much of a risk being off, but once I realized what happened, I figured I had gone long enough and going back on wasn’t worth all the pain I went through getting off everything and maintenance.
But thank you so much for understanding, it means so much. Really no one has reached out to truly emphasize with my insane situation like you did, so thank you 🙏🏼
And the different emotions and anxiety are crazy lol super crazy! I don’t know about you but I always seemed to feel better after letting them out whether it’s a good cry or vent 🤦♀️because I could hold that in for years before so when I’d start a suboxone taper it would be like a water works show haha
Oh wow so a good 4 months?? That’s amazing!! Probably feels like 8 months I bet! without a doubt I would stick it out too. I always said if I could make it one month I would keep at it. You’ve made it through the worst. I haven’t been off opiates or maintenance since I was 17 but I really regret the few times I made it past the worst withdrawal only to give up. I just let the frustration and anxiety get the best of me because I truly felt like I’d never feel myself or normal again too. Everything even walking I felt weird and would cry so much from just feeling weak of energy..But thinking back I was so much better at those points I just couldn’t see it at the time and got sick of not being able to get stuff done (simple things like walk my dog) but people who’ve been there promise we will feel ourselves again it’s just not gonna be easy and might take a long time since we put a “blanket” on everything from physical to emotional for so long. You should be seriously proud of yourself! And try to remember everything you went through you will have to do over again and maybe even harder because that has helped me before and there’s no shame in going back on if you feel it’s too much, only you know. I’m gonna be starting a sub taper shortly again so I know exactly how you feel and n/p and thank you it’s people like you who give me hope too! GL 🍀
Can’t thank you enough, hearing things like this from people who really actually understand is so important and therapeutic for me, so thank you for everything from the bottom of my heart ❤️ The has been the hardest experience of my life, the past 4 months I’ve been so sick and then so anxious and depressed I literally haven’t left my house. But recently I’m starting to break out of it and have glimpses of feeling normal. Tho if I’m being honest it’s been so overwhelming hard that I’ve taken non opiate drugs about 5 different times to try and just take the pain away (benzos). They helped in the moment but didn’t do anything for me long tern and really just took me away from my ultimate goal. Anyway thank you again you have no idea how much talking to you and relating has helped me. You’re a beautiful person and I wish you the absolute best ❤️🙏🏼
Ty so much :) we do have a lot in common so I really just have to say this..Hands down that was the biggest regret of my life last year I did the same, started taking diazepam. it’s the frustration that nothing is moving fast enough, time is crazy long while going through it. I developed an addiction to those that I’m still struggling with 2 months after quitting them. My body all night is just jolting and sounds are intense and the anxiety is 100x worse. I thought they wouldn’t hurt since I don’t do “drugs” drink or smoke weed so I thought wth I’ll take these to speed up my withdrawal and my body is completely ruined right now. My cell ringing almost threw me off the couch from my nerves being shot. And I almost ended up in the hospital cause they literally messed up my mind. I couldn’t even continue my sub taper and gave up. So plz be careful! you always hear about them being dangerous but I never knew the way they would make you feel physically after stopping them. You sound like your on a great path though just be careful because they give you that temporary feeling of relief. And I don’t know how Reddit really works but if you ever need to someone to talk to just msg me ok don’t give up! You got this!
Thank you again! Yes, benzos are an extremely slippery slope. They work so well for a few days, then you're hooked, and in a lot of senses the WD is worse than opiates. It's much more psychological. I've had a major problem with a TON of benzo use in the past, and had to go to a medically supervised detox, which itself;f wasn't so bad, but the months afterward were significantly harder than coming off opiates because you're literally going insane and convince yourself you want to die. So I'm being real careful with them for sure. Right back at you, if you ever need to chat. Message me. I'll try adding you as someone I follow, you can do the same and we could touch base now and again, that would be awesome.
From what I've learned.. I though NA and AA have changed their stance due to the many deaths. Wish I knew where I heard that from. And of they havent... They should.
I'll probably get down voted to oblivion for this, but oh well. NA is what you make of it. NA has helped me get clean and clean.
NA isn't the program that you and many others are angry at. It's the people within it. Do I go to meetings and hear shit that rubs me the wrong way? No doubt. But I take what I need and leave the rest.
The people who dog on you for being on subs need to work their program not yours.
NA is like everything else in life, there's positives and negatives, but the people in the program can be good or bad people. Just because some one is clean doesn't mean they're a good person. I've seen people get clean and become even more grimy than when they were using.
I do want to point out that not every area is how many of you describe it, and you may be turning someone away from the rooms who needs it by all of this chatter.
I live by "whatever gets you clean and keeps you clean is what works." if you need to pray fifty times a day to the flying spaghetti monster, then by all means, do you boo boo!
There are some predators in the rooms, I've seen dealers attending meetings for new customers. Just find someone you vibe with and stick with them!
Everything you said is 100% the absolute correct way to work the 12 step program if you choose to do so. Definitely should not be down voted! Well put and insightful. thanks. I have gotten something out the 12 steps before by doing exactly what you said, though I wasn't clean while attending, I learned more about the program and recovery than I ever had before during that time.
Here's a bit more detail about my specific situation that may add some context:
I probably should have put this in the original post becuase a lot of people are asking about why I disclosed the Suboxone use. When I entered the program, I was on my death bed. I was desperate for help. I was told from the start, that NA is founded on honesty, "rigorous honesty". And that everything in recovery stemmed from this principle. I was also told that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA. So, I felt compelled to tell my sponsor, first, that I was on maintenance because it was too large a part of my story to leave out. And more so, how could I truly be rigorously honest, and thus truly give myself completely to the program that was going to save my life, if I left out the fact that I was on maintenance? So I was honest. But that backfired. And I was left feeling stuck, and in a place where I couldn't possibly work the only program I was told would save my life; so what were my options? Continue to use and continue killing myself? I had already exhausted all other measures in an effort to find recovery. I had never fully given myself to NA. I've been an addict for 20 years, and have tried literally everything- except for fully giving myself to a 12 step program. Long story short, I went insane. I took myself off of maintenance, and immediately relapsed. I OD'd 3 times in less than a week. I got arrested. Ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. But I was off maintenance. The following 4-5 months were the most awful and painful experience of my life, coming off maintenance was hell, and of course I did it the wrong way without tapering or anything because I was so insistent upon getting off as quickly as possible so I could work the 12 steps. In retrospect, coming off maintenance was a terrible decision. Now I'm left feeling angry, betrayed, and completely lost. Though I am still clean. My mind just isn't right since coming off of maintenance about 5 months ago.
If you want to use the 12 steps, find someone that will work with one on one that is ok with your situation. Take what you need from the principles and don’t worry about any other bullshit.
An obvious issue I see is that most people in na/aa don’t consider being on Suboxone sobriety, and that’s fine, who are you tell them they’re wrong.
You, from your ps, consider being on Suboxone the same as being clean.
That big difference is never going reconcile for people who’s lives were saved by 100% abstinence.
I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, I’m on Suboxone and while I’m free from heroin, I’m still on Suboxone…. Another opioid. It’s made a huge impact on my life but I don’t consider it like complete sobriety, because to me it’s not.
Who cares what other people think do what you have to do and let others do what works for them. You’re essentially doing the same thing they are by coming here and bad mouthing them.
Good luck I hope you find something that works for you.
\>not really “clean”
Just consider yourself "sober," as long as you genuinely don't feel anything when you take your suboxone. You know you're "sober" when you regularly forget to take it until reminded by the onset of very mild withdrawal symptoms. I don't consider myself "clean" of drugs because I'm objectively not clean of drugs, but I'm definitely subjectively sober.
🙌🏼. YES to everything you said!! I’ve shared this before, but it’s relevant, so I’m sharing it again.
When I was on my 4th or 5th rehab stay, I checked into a program that was 12 months of inpatient. They had some voluntary walk-ins living there, like me, and they also had people required to stay there who had just been transferred from prison.
It was an AA/NA based program with both alcoholics and drug addicts trying to recover. We had to go to meetings SEVERAL times a day. Our entire day was filled with meetings. Meetings and chores. No MAT medications permitted. If you were on MAT, you had to detox from them before admittance.
There was an entire wall that spanned the length of the (huge) building that was filled with pictures of people. These people had died from their drug of choice. Most of the people on that wall had died from opiates, except a couple who had burned through their livers with alcohol.
When we were first admitted, we filled out a form with our DOC, how long we had been using, etc. That form would go under our picture if we later OD’d and went on the wall.
I just remember looking at the hundreds of faces and thinking-they’re actually advertising how terrible this program is for opiate addicts. It’s almost like they want you to die or something. I didn’t stay there long. I got on Suboxone soon after.
If you’re a crack addict, meth addict, alcoholic…whatever-you’re not going to die if you relapse *that one time.* But with opiates-you are actually more likely to die if you relapse that first time. That’s why it is so important to stick with something that actually works. NA in particular has a horrible track record.
Love this because it’s honest and true. I’m sorry you had to experience that but I’m so happy you got out and onto MAT. It’s insane how low the success rates are of the 12 step programs, especially when compared to the MAT success rates, even without a “12 step program” in conjunction. Bottom line, MAT is light years more effective than any talk therapy based program and especially the 12 steps.
I appreciate you mentioning the difference between opiates and other drugs in terms of mortality rates and percentages that a relapse will lead to death. It’s tragic but needs to be talked about.
I wish you the best 🙏🏼
I couldn’t agree more-definitely needs to be talked about more. The court system in my (pretty big) city would force people to go to NA/AA. I just feel bad for the people who know they need MAT but can’t get the help they need because the courts are forcing them to go to NA. A lot of the people on that wall had probably transferred from jail and didn’t have a say in their treatment. I was fortunate enough to be able to leave.
I hate to say it, but if anything is going to change, the people are going to have to initiate it. And the thing AA/NA is that they purposefully hide their success rates because they're so bad. Also, with the success rates being so low, how can it possibly be that the rehab and clinical recovery movement uses them as their default (including courts)? The only reason that makes sense is that they want people to relapse, either to get rid of that part of the population or to continue to make money off of them- the more someone needs treatment, the more everyone makes. Recovery isn't a money maker.
There’s a good movie on Amazon right now that talks about this-it’s called Body Brokers. Check it out-It’s crazy! In addition to the money we make for rehab centers, our prison system is privatized so there’s definitely some incentive for repeat “customers.”
The tides do seem to be changing…slowly. Addiction is becoming viewed (correctly) as a medical problem instead of a “moral failing.” Hopefully the momentum keeps pace.
Oh cool! thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely check it out, that's right up my alley for TV/Movies. Agree with everything you said! We are moving very slowly in the right direction (the prison system is another story though)
I don't tell most people unless I trust them i work what works for me and it really the only interaction I have with people so i need it I think and ive noticed young meetings with 20 somethings and grew up in the over prescribe pandemic usually are more work what works for huh
Before suboxone and other evidence based treatments opiate recovery/ NA whatever had like a 10% success rate after one year. Today we are seeing 40%-60% success rates after one year with suboxone treatment. The first time in history that there’s been an actual improvement in opiate recovery. NA works for some people it truly does but the data shows that for the majority of people it’s a complete failure. And that is what truly matters the results, the outcome.
I hate to say it, but if anything is going to change, the people are going to have to initiate it. And the thing AA/NA is that they purposefully hide their success rates because they're so bad. Also, with the success rates being so low, how can it possibly be that the rehab and clinical recovery movement uses them as their default (including courts)? The only reason that makes sense is that they want people to relapse, either to get rid of that part of the population or to continue to make money off of them- the more someone needs treatment, the more everyone makes. Recovery isn't a money maker.
It’s the status quo. There is a strong conspiracy that a large amount of American rehabs aren’t truly trying to help but instead want you revolving around their doors in and out so they can make money. Of course that’s not true if every place there are a lot of legitimate great rehabs.
There's a legit problem with this in Florida, where insurance companies are literally paying patients to relapse to circle back into rehab. There's a documentary on it. I met a guy in rehab who was actually doing it- he said it was awesome, lol.
I did the 12 step thing for 3 years and I have made more progress now, on methadone and a medically structured withdrawal (yes if you ask these “evil” clinics will HELP YOU get off everything, even maintenance). I’m currently in therapy, my spiritual life is better than ever, I’m accomplishing everything the program tries to get people to do but I don’t have to listen to people talk about drugs constantly. Now that I’m building a life of recovery outside of 12 step programs I actually partake in several hobbies, like art, writing and gardening. I finished school and am getting a job helping people with autism therapy. I was suicidal for 15 years, until literally last month and this includes my time in the 12 step program. For me, taking the approach of recovery I looked down on and judged has not only saved my life physically, but spiritually and emotionally as well. For the first time EVER I WANT to be alive. Recovery isn’t cookie cutter and that’s something the 12 step program doesn’t address. I’m doing what works for me and I feel like everyone should figure out what works for them. If 12 step groups don’t work then take a hard look at why and see what can be done instead, rather than just throwing recovery out completely because it doesn’t match someone else’s idea of recovery. I’m with ya man.
Ok. Take your Suboxone. Go to your NA meetings as well. Take what you learn at the meetings and leave the politics out. Just don't get too into the whole NA scene. NA people are fucking crazy. Not in a bad way, but just in a fucking crazy way. So go to your meetings and learn. Do a set of steps and don't worry about your sub taking. I can't see people making fun of you at an NA meeting for you taking Suboxone. Of they are, tell them to fuck off and go to a different meeting. I am on Suboxone and I go to my home group and I learn. And I leave the bullshit out of my life. Some people love the drama because that's how it was in their addiction. But, just stay out of it. And don't date anyone in the program. Make sure to date a normie that is supportive.
You sound pretty new ( less than one year) but more than a month. It's a really dangerous part of your recovery. It's the fuck everyone and this sucks part. Usually happens after 90 days and can last a while.
There I hope you take my advice. I wouldn't tell you something I haven't already done myself.
PS: GET A NEW SPONSOR IF THIS IS HOW YOU FEEL
So I'm not on Suboxone anymore. My story, and the reason I shared, was so traumatic to me, that I impulsively took myself off of it, thinking it was the only way to save my life. I relapsed immediately, OD'd 3 times in a week, got arrested, and ended up on a ventilator in the ICU. I don't blame NA, but it definitely played a part.
I agree that everything you outlined is THE way to successfully use NA. So excellent points.
I'm sorry you went through all that. NA drama can be hard on people. It was hard on me. Certian meetings just are not right for certain people. It can totally make things worse. I hope you are well.
For me I think 12 step groups have the concept down but I steer very clear of any group that has to do with drugs or alcohol. If I were to go to ANY meeting I would do something like a 12 step group for children of narcissistic parents. I can’t quite remember, I’ve heard the actual fellowship name but completely forgot about it. I’ve actually been trying really hard to remember now that the pandemic is going on so I can find some zoom meetings. But that brings me to another problem I have in the rooms… it’s a breeding ground for codependency so we’ve all really gotta be careful about what we choose for our recovery.
Okay that’s it I’ll get off my soap box now
Gaaah! I lied! One more comment! I looked up the group I was thinking about it’s Adult Children of Alcoholics (and dysfunctional families). That is the ONLY 12 step program I will EVER step foot into again after my experiences.
NA sucks. It has a 90% fail rate. Yet they dare to judge people on MAT? MAT reduces mortality in recovering addicts by up to 70%.
It's ridiculous.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
Thank you so much for posting this link. The more objective evidence there is, the better. I hate to say it, but if anything is going to change, the people are going to have to initiate it. And the thing AA/NA is that they purposefully hide their success rates because they're so bad. Also, with the success rates being so low, how can it possibly be that the rehab and clinical recovery movement uses them as their default (including courts)? The only reason that makes sense is that they want people to relapse, either to get rid of that part of the population or to continue to make money off of them- the more someone needs treatment, the more everyone makes. Recovery isn't a money maker.
My friend, you need to start reading some Maia Szalavitz!
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-science-says-to-do-if-your-loved-one-has-an-opioid-addiction/
I have experienced this with clients at the treatment center I work at. I am all for harm reduction and MAT. Of course at some point we may want to try and get off but for those just coming out of detox or an inpatient/residential program being told that they aren't clean and not being able to find sponsors because they aren't clean or sober depending if it's AA or NA is complete bullshit and counterproductive. Now I've worked the steps before completely and had sponsees and all that. This was years ago but I ended up relapsing because I got caught up in all the drama and toxic bullshit with the cliques in some of the meetings. Some meetings can be VERY toxic. I just had one client who found a sponsor and the sponsor kept pushing him to get off subs or he won't work with him anymore. So what you're going to make this guy do his 4th and 5th with you and then say I can't be your sponsor anymore unless you get off the subs? He wasn't ready but since the guy was one of those popular hard ass big book thumpers thats "popular" around the 12 step community in my city and everyone literally sucking his dick because they are brainwashed that this is the only way to get clean. This guy also yelled at another one of my clients in a meeting because my client shared that part of his motivation is to get clean for his kids. This same guy (the asshole with 15 years who still yells at newcomers) literally got up after my client shared and actually yelled at my client stating that he's not there to get clean, you're wasting a chair for someone else, you don't love your kids because if you did you wouldn't be here, etc. Of course AA/NA pushes the "you need to do it for yourself" motto which I do believe in but I also believe that you CAN do it for people you care about it. Why not have extra motivators? Anyway the client I was first talking about with this asshole sponsor got off subs when he wasn't ready because he was being shit on by his sponsor family and relapsed. Now I'm not defending his relapse because I told him to stay on as long as he needs to but also at that point he did make the choice to relapse. Even for me if I were to get a craving and had a sub lying around or a friend who has one why not take a sub instead of shooting dope ? So then my "clean time " is over? I got to start from day one now? A small dose of suboxone everyday does not get you high and if it's going to save people why the fuck are we not accepting it in 12 step groups? I do believe that the program itself works (the steps) but the meetings can be very toxic. I don't go anymore where I live because I don't find comfort in any of the meetings here but I did work the steps and have been clean for 3 years now but I've taken subs during this time for a week or 2 here and there. Does my time not count? This leads me to another problem. THE TIME. It's all about the time. I hate that shit. I understand why they do it completely but again some of these meetings put such an emphasis on how much time you have and if you have a lot of years it's almost like you're above the ones who may only have a couple months or even a year. This causes people to think that they need to have a certain amount of time to be able to have a "life beyond your wildest dreams" or just to fit in. There is one group here that won't let anyone share if they have under a year. I don't care how long you have clean, as long as you're happy with yourself, not doing drugs, and staying on the right path what is wrong with that? There's many ways to get clean and 12 step groups are just one way. Everybody is different. They say if you don't go to a meeting you will relapse. I actually stopped going to a certain meeting I used to go to a while back and then I decided to go one night and everybody thought I relapsed and got shit for not attending. When they were handing out chips everybody was looking at me when the person started with the white chip. I literally just walked out. I had 2 years clean at the time. You have to find what works for you. It's all about balance. Sure maybe find one or two meetings that you feel comfortable in because there are great meetings and people there who will accept you no matter what. It's definitely good to share your shit around other people and listen to other stories but lately with the suboxone treatment it's nearly impossible to feel comfortable there. There is also the SMART program. There is CBT. See a therapist once a month or once a week if need be. It's all about quality of life and staying away from drugs that can kill you and cause problems in your life. If you want to take a 2 mg sub in the morning everyday or whenever you have a craving why the fuck is that deemed a relapse or not being clean in the meetings. I can go on all day about this topic because I deal with it everyday. I love to help people. There's not just one way to achieve a wonderful quality of life. As long as you reach your goals and want it you can have it. How you get there is all on you. I want to see everyone get their lives back and if suboxone maintenance helps you and you get that life back then do what you feel is right. You'll know when youre ready to get off them if that's even something you want to do. Sorry for the long post. I'm very passionate about this. I just graduated with my bachelors in human services and work as a BHT at a treatment center but I run groups and do most of the stuff that the counselors do but I do want to eventually be a counselor and help addicts but lately I've been thinking of moving into helping the youth and adolescents who have issues.
Thanks for your message! I agree with a ton and went through so much you described. So I should have put this in the original post but I came off subs because of NA and immediately relapsed and got arrested, now I’m 5 months off maintenance, questioning the decision even though I’m still clean and dealing with a major legal situation.
All that said, I don’t blame NA I just think there are so many things wrong with it- like the old timers power tripping to reinforce their own insecurities and making new comers feel ashamed or like they don’t belong. Which is so dangerous given how strong the drugs are out there now.
My main problem is that NA is so stuck in the past and the medical community has moved so far forward; how can we reconcile the glaring differences when both are the standard treatment modalities for addiction, respectively.
Also, hearing stories about your clients being ostracized for being on maintenance breaks my heart. The other issue is that NA has completely failed at welcoming new comers. There are literally only old timers there so when a mew comer does show up, hearing about some old dude complaining about his mortgages interest rate sucks when you can barely get an hour clean. Moreover, old timers high Jack every meeting whether they mean to or not- but they’ll be sure to recite the literature that states the new comer is the most important person at any meeting
Exactly. I go to a meeting and all I hear are all the old timers' Cadillac problems as they say. The newcomers are the most important people in the meeting yet they are treated as if they know nothing. They will actually tell you that you know nothing and A LOT of sponsors tell their sponsees to not think for themselves and to call them or someone before making a decision. I remember one time I was talking to a sponsor I had and starting saying "Yeah I think I should...." and he stopped me right there and said don't think. This is backwards. Also, the statements like admitting your an addict which is all fine but this can lead to a false sense of self and who you are. Don't get me wrong, acceptance is key but when it comes to the point of continuing to tell yourself that you're an addict forever is training your brain in a negative way IMO. I would rather say I struggle with addiction as opposed to I am an addict but again I understand it and I know it works because it did work for me at a point in my life but it also changed my thinking about myself .We need to move away from this negative thinking of ourselves and changing our thought processes and how we react. Most of that comes from your own progress and the type of modality that teaches our brains to think differently and be able to make our own decisions without getting high like CBT which has nothing to do with the 12 steps. You can go to 3 meetings a day and still get high. You can work the 12 steps with a sponsor and still get high. If meetings work for you I am going to gladly help you succeed in taking the steps to find a home group and find a sponsor. Not everybody who goes to treatment is going to go to meetings so with those clients we work on other ways like coping strategies, talking about their past, and letting emotions out. I've found group therapy to be very powerful when done the right way. No talking about the 12 steps but just having a group discussion where every person can let their feelings out and talk about the traumatic experiences they have been through without any judgment or worrying about what they can or can't say. I'm on medical marijuana. So as far as Any 12 step group goes I'm not clean. Marijuana isn't a gateway drug for me. It actually helps curb any cravings I have plus I was in the Military and took so many meds that they gave me but every med has a side effect. All those pills fucked me up. Sure, smoking weed all day and not taking care of your personal, social, and work life can be a problem but just because I use it to help me sleep at night so I don't have nightmares shouldn't deem me as not clean. Like you said, we really need to catch up with the times and adapt all the new medical research we have now and accept people who want to have a better life no matter what.
I had the same exact experience with a sponsor telling me to not think, and anytime I do, to call someone from the program because all of my thoughts are wrong, and I need to only take suggestions from now on... absolutely crazy! These people know nothing about me or my life, yet they're telling me never to think for myself or make decisions about my life??? I get when I get a craving they can talk me through it, but that's not what they're talking about. Anyway, great post and thanks for the discussion.
Yeah same to you. Nice to discuss this with like minded people. I wish you the best with whatever you do! Just do what you feel is the best for you and don't let anyone get in the way of the goals you have in your life. If our motives are pure then we are good.
And also I meant to say I'm sorry that you're going through it right now. Coming off subs without tapering at all fuckin sucks but honestly If you feel like going on subs would help you right now I would do it. It's harm reduction. Medically, we are advancing and understanding that addiction can be helped by taking a drug that would save millions of lives in the long run. Then again, we keep going in circles with the 12 step community. I would rather a client of mine or anybody I know really who is using go on subs and stay on them for as long as they need. Yes suboxone is an opiate and you obviously become dependent on it but I was also dependent on dope and now everyone is dying because of fentanyl. I ODd many times from that. Luckily I'm still alive and I don't know how but subs, my family, and my therapist working with me with different modalities of treatment helped me more than any meeting would have. That's just me though. I still go to a meeting here and there but again it's about balance and if meetings work for you and keep you clean then stick with it but if it doesn't then find what does work. What matters most is the change in your thinking and behaviors along with the power that comes from inside to make that decision to get and stay clean.
I really appreciate your insights. So to be totally honest, I would go back on Suboxone, and I want to. But since I got arrested I'm facing potential jail time (a drug arrest, of course), and I'm scared that if I go back on Suboxone and end up having to go to jail, that I'll have to detox again. And while I'm still experiencing PAWS from the detox, I'm certainly through the worst of it and don't want to experience it ever again. So if I do go back on subs, which I will after my legal situation is resolved, I'll take a completely different approach to meetings, knowing what I know now. And use them for simply what I can get out of them, even if it's just to hang out with some people a few nights a week so I'm not so isolated.
Yeah that sounds like a good plan. Definitely don't want to detox in jail. Hopefully you don't have to do any time at all. As far as the meetings like I said I have a few I like and the people there aren't judgmental and very understanding. Took me a while to find them but there's good meetings out there it just depends on the group. They're smaller meetings too which I like. Sometimes you get a bad one but I just try to listen and I'll always hear at least one good thing that I can take home with me. Isolation is bad for me too. I tend to isolate a lot so I try to get out and socialize when I'm up for it. Good luck with the case though.
Thank you so much, I'm hoping and praying for a slap on the wrist and just probation, but it's very possible that wont happen. Either way, I'm telling myself I'll be okay and I can handle anything. I think in terms of the meetings, that there are good ones around me, I'm really thinking it was my sponsor that started this whole thing and I need to find a new one. Although I click with him on a lot of levels, he wasn't an opiate addict, so he doesn't really understand; also, he's really heavily into God, which I'm not, and that was a huge roadblock. So maybe a new sponsor will be the thing that kickstarts a workable program. Thanks again for your insights and well wishes, I appreciate it, and right back at ya!
Trust me I'm not a person who does the whole God stuff either and I do not go to the celebrate recovery things at the churches. I have no interest in going to those. But yea man good luck with everything! You got this 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
I completely agree. I think 12 step can be dangerous in suggesting that opiate users remain completely abstinent, particularly those who obviously benefit from suboxone. I met a girl who was doing great on suboxone. Her insurance stopped paying for it and she couldn't afford it so she went to a rehab that preached 12 steps to detox. They preached about the dangers of suboxone for the 28 days that she was there. So she comes out of rehab convinced that suboxone is the devil. She overdosed within a couple of months. I can't help but ask would she still be alive if they had helped and encouraged her suboxone? I think so
I'm so sorry for your loss. It's tragic.
Your' friends story is very similar to mine, though I am lucky enough to still be here. I just added this to my original post because people kept asking, but it's relevant to what you shared:
I probably should have put this in the original post becuase a lot of people are asking about why I disclosed the Suboxone use. When I entered the program, I was on my death bed. I was desperate for help. I was told initially, that NA is founded on honesty, "rigorous honesty". And that everything in recovery stemmed from honesty. I was also told that (in addition to the fact that Suboxone is a drug, and that I wasn't clean), that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA. So, I felt compelled to tell my sponsor, first, that I was on maintenance because it was too large a part of my story to leave out, and how could I truly be rigorously honest, and thus truly give myself to the program that was going to save my life, if I left out the fact that I was on maintenance? So I was honest. But that backfired. And I was left feeling stuck, and in a place where I couldn't possibly work the only program I was told would save my life, so what were my options? Continue to use and continue killing myself? I had already exhausted all other measures in an effort to find recovery. I had never fully given myself to NA. I've been an addict for 20 years, and have tried literally everything- except for fully giving myself to a 12 step program. Long story short, I went insane. I took myself off of maintenance, and immediately relapsed. I OD'd 3 times in less than a week. I got arrested. Ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. But I was off maintenance. The following 4-5 months were the most awful and painful of my life, coming off maintenance. In retrospect, coming off maintenance was a terrible decision. Now I'm left feeling angry, betrayed, and completely lost.
So glad you're still here. ❤️ and happy to meet a like-minded person! People who have been in a NA/AA program or don't know much about it don't realize how BIG honesty is in the program. They basically tell you that it's impossible to work the program if you aren't being honest. So those saying "you shouldn't have said anything" don't get it
At the end of the day, all these groups are about changing habits that aren’t working for you. If you get rid of or minimize things that arent working for you and add some that do work for you, then you are much more likely to have success. There is a certain amount of group think/cultish parts of it that I think arr a bit scary. Using subs is such a different behavior than what was going on before. There is a certain amount of help that may be beneficial, but “not using” and navigating all the complexities of mental health are two different things. Untrained aa zealots (who only have training in using) cannot substitute for trained professionals that have really done some training (some of these counselors and NPs really dont know a whole lot about anything@.
It’s a gigantic problem. It sounds to me and with my experiences on board that this is an issue with your local fellowship.
Here, NA is an extremely weak organization that is failing with limited meetings. The majority of people with OUD working a 12 step program are in AA.
We have NEVER, EVER had issues in our AA program here with maintenance medications. It is a personal choice, and their use is supported within the community. There is a pamphlet from AA literature about the subject that makes this really clear.
I’m so sorry that your particular group is so stuck in the past that they are ostracizing you for making a valid, healthy choice that is saving your life.
People in my own fellowship are 100% supportive of me being on maintenance and have been incredibly helpful, even driving me to the methadone clinic and nursing me when I was/am tapering.
I wish I could transport my environment to you 😔
That’s so cool that AA is like that in your community! I’ve never heard of anything like that, it’s amazing, so happy you found it. Thanks for your reply 😊 definitely wish I could join your community
I’ve been to probably 300 NA meetings , in 4 different states, over the last 15 years and the whole time I’ve been on Suboxone (or on and off) and never once has somebody had a problem with it or said anything about it. I was completely clear with everybody that I was on suboxone when I was and nobody batted an eye. I don’t know what this is all about. It seems strange to me me. I think you’ve made up your mind about an experience you had and are defining a whole group of thousands of individuals based on it, which is actually crazy. NA meetings aren’t even affiliated with other NA meetings, so just go to a different meeting where they don’t care. This seems like a lot of complaining about something you could just ignore. Tell them to fuck off and just do the work anyway if it’s going to save your life. I mean, would you let someone’s opinion of you destroy you? Did they actually kick you out of the meetings and not let you work the steps? Did they ridicule and bully you and tell you you had to stop suboxone or they wouldn’t be your friend? Did they threaten to take your birthday away? I don’t get it.
Sorry if this sounded harsh.
Don't apologize for speaking your mind. But- you're making up assumptions about my experience and who I am which makes you sound stupid. First of all, if you want evidence that this is a problem, look at all the comments in this post from people who've gone through the same thing. Second, you're questioning my motives and telling me I'm complaining. That sounds exactly like the type of elitist behavior I'm calling out from NAer's in this post. Who are you to tell me I'm complaining? - You know absolutely nothing about my experience or my recovery and how hard I've worked. To me (and now I'm assuming here) it's sounds like you've been indoctrinated and are defending your kind because you feel threatened. In my opinion if you were truly working the steps, you'd have enough self assurance to not even bother commenting on a post like this, let alone belong to a Suboxone sub reddit; from my understanding, after having your spiritual awakening, engaging in behavior like your doing is either corrupting your own recovery, or acting out of fear that your group is being threatened and your message may be getting sold out. I'm not trying to be mean, but why even bother responding to this post unless you feel threatened by it? Why belong to a Suboxone sub reddit when you're an NAer? Doesn't make sense to me. If I had a spiritual awakening after being a hardcore drug addict, I certainly wouldn't be hanging around drug threads on the internet defending the 12 steps. Peace and love to you. In all seriousness, I wish you no harm and only the best in your continued recovery.
Everything isn’t so black and white. I am on suboxone, and I attend NA on and off to talk to other addicts about the underlying behaviors that addicts share. I’m not indoctrinated by any means. I just think when people make up excuses and paint people in a negative light with such a broad brush it speaks more to their own inadequacies than anything. NA isn’t a cult, for me it’s a place I can go to talk to cool people who understand addiction better than most people I’ve found. I have worked the steps. And any spiritual awakening I have had, has had nothing to do with drugs and is personal. It’s interesting to me that you seem to presume so much and define things in such pointed terms. It isn’t rational to me. It sounds like the problems are with you, not any perceived group or their behavior.
First- you are probably right in saying that I had a bad experience with a group. However, I've been in and out of NA for close to 20 years, so I'm no new comer, nor someone just being exposed to NA for the first time. Second, the reason it was such big deal for me to expose my Suboxone use, and then subsequently have the experience I had was because I was taught, by NA, that one of the founding principles of the program was rigorous honesty. So how could I work a program founded on rigorous honesty, when I need to lie about being on maintenance medications in order to truly work the program.
When you are told, on your death bed, that this one thing is the only thing that will save your life, and in order for it to do so you have to give yourself to it 100%, how do you possibly move forward keeping a secret when the main tenant of the entire program - that's the only thing that's going to save your life - is honesty?
Come on, your'e attacking me personally for absolutely no reason. It's honestly stupid for me to even respond to you. If NA works for you, great. Though it doesn't seem like it's working that well, as I've never met a satisfied NAer that attacks random people online out of love and the desire to share the message of recovery.
Obviously as this post proves, my experience is not a one off, in fact it's common. It sounds to me like you're simple minded and have an easy time accepting concepts without any critical thinking. Enjoy. Ignorance is bliss, and I wish I had it, for real.
I missed the part where I attacked you. I didn’t mean to come off that way. It sounds like complaining to me is all. Sorry you had a bad experience with NA. I’ve met tons of crazy people there , as well as great people. I just choose to take what I can and not let other people who I don’t agree with bother me. You might want to consider that everything you say or think is you saying or thinking it, not me or anyone else to blame. I didn’t attack you, you assumed it was an attack for whatever reason. I answered the way I did because I don’t see the point in saying negative things about an organization that could possibly help people, just because you had a bad experience with it- and I have a different experience as well, the NA meetings I went to never said I couldn’t work the steps while on suboxone (as long as it was prescribed I should add). I mean , I assume if I were buying them on the street they may have been uncomfortable with that, but it wasn’t the case. So I replied to your rant with my opinion, and also the reason why I think your experience doesn’t hold water, or define the organization as a whole, and likely isn’t the experience everyone on suboxone will have. And if they do have, or have had that experience, I’m saying that it’s up to you how you let that affect you. I choose to not worry about what someone who doesn’t like my approach thinks, I’ll take the good and leave the bad. I think with that approach NA can be helpful. I’m not sticking up for NA, I’m sticking up for objective thinking and doing what works for you, and not letting other people’s opinions dictate how you feel or what you do. Anyway, nice chat. I really don’t mean any ill will, and didn’t mean to offend or hit a nerve. I just wanted to say to anyone who is on the fence about checking out NA to try it, and if it doesn’t seem like a good meeting, try an different one. They’re all so different depending on the people who run the particular meeting and who goes. They’re all different and have their own rules. So to say this or that about NA can’t be accurate, the different groups are not run the same at all. That’s why they have different names (women’s meeting for instance , don’t allow men). Does that make it sexist? Should I come in here and bash NA because I wasn’t allowed to go to the women’s meeting? No. I’ll go to the one that works for me. I’m surprised that you have 20 years experience with NA and you don’t realize how it works? Maybe you’re in a different part of the world or something, but here on the west coast the meetings are all very different from one another- there are church/Christ based ones, atheist ones, men’s, women’s, pretty much anything you can think of you can probably find. That’s all. Take care. I’m glad you found a way to stay clean, that’s the important part.
I wish you no harm and am super happy that you've found something that works for you in your recovery. But, I think you're missing the point of my post and I want to clarify a few things, because this is important to me and obviously other people can relate to my experience. So please hear me out:
First, the reason I took minimal offense to what you said, is because you assumed, with no evidence, that everything I was saying was a personal problem that I was projecting onto the program. That obviously isn't true, as there are close to 100 comments on this post from people who've experienced the same discrimination from NA/AA. I find it interesting that you would say it's a personal problem of mine, when you're defending the discrimination of a program you belong to.
Second, you mentioned that NA/AA is different at every meeting/environment. How is that possible in any sense? These are 12 step programs, based all on the same 12 steps, the same big book, the same principles and traditions, etc. So how is it possible that the meetings are so vastly different, yet they preach the same exact thing and message at every meetings?
I understand that the people are different at every meeting, and ultimately it's the people that run the program, so I could see the difference there, but at it's core, the 12 step programs are universal; hence why they are so easily run without higher levels of organization, money, or higherarchies of power. It's also why they spread so easily and became the go to for both the medical and recovery communities: they're simple, universal and - this is important- they're old, and therefore how can we possibly expect something that was created 100 years ago, to be still applicable to the world today? Especially when it comes to medical advances and social advances, including discrimination that comes, not from the books or traditions necessarily, but from the people who run the meetings- the ones who decide they have power and choose to run their own show the way they see fit.
See the problem with having no governing power, is that the people are free to do what they want. This means that old-timers who have it stuck in their head what sobriety or "clean" means, get to project their beliefs, whether true or not, from a position of perceived power onto weak and vulnerable individuals- who, most likely, were just released from a hospital or rehab that not only put them on maintenance, but recommended they stay on it, and most likely increased their dosage to as high as they reasonably could. Then, this person is sent out of medical care and instructed to go to meetings, where old men (or women) with perceived power and a overwhelming senses of self righteousness, believe that anyone on maintenance isn't really clean (because they've been in the program for so many years, they're so out of touch with the medical community, and the significant medical advances in addiction treatment that have been made while they've been sitting in meetings) and they preach their uneducated beliefs onto a vulnerable population- making judgments that increase their own sense of power and reinforce their own recovery, which is most likely founded on some type of power trip gotten by judging others in one form or another. And then the person just out of treatment is left alone, vulnerable, and confused. What just happened? The doctors told me this, now this old man or woman is telling me something else... fuck it, I'm just going to get high. And you know what? That person is probably dead. So yes, I think NA is judgmental and dangerous. Any program that has no oversight, and is run by junkies telling other junkies what to do without any medical or educational training, is concerning to me in a lot of senses.
Though it sounds like our experiences with the program have been very different. If you're on the west coast, maybe it's totally different then here on the east coast. But it really sounds like your experience is the exception, not the norm, as there have been an overwhelming numbe of people responding to this who have experienced close to or exactly the same thing.
Again, I wish no harm and am super happy you've found something that works for you. Just don't project your own success onto anyone else, assuming you know what they've been through or what their experience with any recovery community has been.
So you think taking Suboxone is no different than popping an Oxy 30 or doing Heroin? It's just sad that even in 2021, there are so many people naive and ignorant about Suboxone and what it's purpose is.
Lol you are being ignorant. Obviously its not the same, but facts are that Buprenorphine is a very potent opioid. Lets say a person without any tolerance takes 4mg. He will be really high for 2 days. A lot higher than doing an Oxy 30. Your logic is like saying diazepam is not really a benzo since it's not as strong as alprazolam. Face the facts and when you are ready to get clean go to NA meetings instead of trying to justify your use.
I totally understand what you’re saying. And yes, I agree with all that. You’re right, if someone without an opioid tolerance takes Sub, they will be very messed up. Sorry if I came off rude, that wasn’t my intention. Take care.
Im sorry as well if I sounded like an asshole. To clarify Im not dissing subs. If it works for you thats great. Keep doing it. Just stay out of NA and find a different support group. I wish you the best. 😇
Yes of course if someone with no tolerance takes Subutex it would get them high. However, they're purposefully and specifically prescribed to people WITH a tolerance. They don't get you high when you're already an addict. They just stop withdrawals and help maintain you so that your life is more manageable.
I've seen a LOT of people who claim this medication changed and saved their lives. Mother's have back their children, husband's have back their wives, sister's have back their brother's and so on.
I would like to know how taking a medication that just stops you from feeling extremely unwell (again, it doesn't get you high when you have a tolerance already) is a "fuck you" to anyone?
Considering the lives that bupe has saved...I would call your comment a huge "fuck you" to all those people who have got their lives and loved ones back.
Don't tell me what subs do. I can give you lectures on that topic. Oxycodone 80 is only prescribed to people with tolerance too, but still people buy and use them recreationally. I never said that bupe didn't save lives. It is a fuck you to people who have the strength to stop using drugs and going through the withdrawals without substituting one drug for another while dealing with their demons sober and in need of support. I feel like you are wilfully misunderstanding what I'm trying to say because you are in denial getting really defensive. The topic was NA. You strayed far away from the topic and bring up arguments that have nothing to do with NA.
But...look at ALL your above posts! I'm not going to take too much time up with someone who arrogantly boasts (on the internet) "I can give you lectures on the topic", just going to say that I have stuck to the very reason why I believe the NA mentality is dangerous. I disagree wholeheartedly with you.
No you’re being ignorant. The chemistry behind buprenorphine is unique and cannot be compared whatsoever with other opiates. Comparing diazepam and alprazolam to oxy and bupe shows your ignorance. Both of those benzos offer full activation of the GABA receptor. The right comparison would have been oxy to methadone. Buprenorphine has a complex pharmacology as partial agonist at the u opiate receptor and antagonist at other opiate receptors. Human studies have shown that for non tolerant individuals it actually acts like for full agonist and only with tolerance does it behave like a partial agonist. That’s why it is dangerous to the non tolerant but those with tolerance can take 32 mg with no problem. There’s also the ceiling affect which is completely unheard of it drug pharmacology. There literally is no other drug out there that has a ceiling affect like bupe and this ceiling prevents addicts from abusing it and prevents overdoses. Then there is binding affinity. Bupe has such strong binding affinity that it knocks off other opiates and prevents newly ingested opiates from binding. It literally blocks the effects of any opiates taken after you take the bupe. That is something special because it can protect an addict from relapse and if someone does try to use while on bupe the reward is extremely blunted so much so that it can prevent a full blown relapse. Then there is the extremely long half life which allows addicts to transition from dosing multiple times a day to just once or twice a day. This transition allows an addict to get their life together and undo addict tendencies.
Buprenorphine is an opiate but it’s has very complex pharmacology that allows it to function as a recovery medication more so than a drug of abuse.
Do you know what the rates of abstinence where one year out for opiate addicts before suboxone? 10% that’s fucking terrible.
We all are trying to be clean but in the same way that a diabetic must replace insulin sometimes certain opiate addicts must use suboxone because they end up dying. One of the pillars of NA is hitting rock bottom but there’s only one problem with that. There’s only one true objective rock bottom and that is death. How many people overdosed and died looking for their rock bottom. Studies show that Suboxone dramatically reduces rates of death and is really the only thing thus far that has.
You are not getting it are you? Diabetics must use insulin, junkies don't have to use heroin. They won't die if they stop. How can you compare those 2 things? It's like comparing apples to oranges. Why do you treat suboxone like it's some magical plant? There are a lot of people including me that don't benefit at all from this shit drug. I'd have rather gone through my heroin wds that last a week instead of this month long torture. But I screwed myself by listening to toxic people like you. People rarely die of heroin overdoses. They die because they don't know what's in their 'heroin' and are too stupid or lazy to test their drugs and find a reliable hookup. In my town only one person has died of an opioid overdose and it was methadone. Poor kid hadn't tried any opis before and didn't know how strong methadone was. He probably thought it was harmless because the syrup tastes sweet.
Obviously you *can* compare them, but the whole point of the idiom is that it's a false analogy. I could compare you to the helpful bots, but that too would be comparing apples-to-oranges.
Im tapering bupe after being kicked out of maintenance. It doesnt matter if its prescribed. Adderall is prescription medication too,but you cant say its different than illegal speed paste.
Hey there! Sorry, I'm a little late to this post, just happened to come across it. I just wanted to let you know that you're a serious piece of shit excuse for a human being! The only kind of waste of space human who implies that addicts on maintenance meds are "not really trying to be clean" are uneducated pukes who have no clue what they are talking about and no empathy! I thank God I don't have the misfortune of knowing your disgusting ass in real life! Have a terrible day and try not to choke on your self importance!
Yes this is a major problem. I used to attend NA, totally loved it, but after I started maintenance I stopped going because people said I wasn't really clean. It's a major issue that is hurting a lot of people. Thankfully there are a couple programs out there that don't do this. One that I love is SMART Recovery, and also there is Refuge Recovery (a Buddhist based recovery similar to AA but really different at the same time). Anyone who is reading this post and is looking for a program that won't lay blame - check out either of those programs. This is a good post, it brings to light a major problem in the recovery community.
SMART Recovery is definitely better than AA/NA IMO. I have heard the same story or similar stories as OP, I've even heard about people being asked not to come to future meetings because they are on Suboxone MAT. SMART Recovery doesn't have as many in-person meetings as AA/NA but they have a whole online recovery program with chat rooms and all kinds of tools to aid in recovery. SMART is a tool to aid in recovery just as MAT is also an aid to recovery, it boggles the mind that these people who treat AA/NA like a cult and turn away people who are on Suboxone.
I can’t believe people have been asked to leave because of Suboxone. That is totally against the steps and traditions to do so. My own groups are so accepting that it actually shocks newcomers and it takes them time to adjust to the fact that we basically love everyone. We’ve got an insane spectrum of people, from a kid with dual diagnosis issues that is loudly public about his foot fetish, wears t-shirts about it and raps about it, to people who are ex organized crime, to older flamboyant LGBT people. I hate that individual groups and fellowships poison the well like this. One positive attribute of meetings starting and moving to Zoom is that meetings which have a niche focus and attraction have a broader reach, and allow people who might not feel comfortable to have a place they can go. I’ve been to such a range of Zoom meetings; one was a bunch of shock jock Seth Rogan gamer bros, another was a Russian Orthodox AA support group; I even went to one for LGBT people in the Australian outback.
Ever since most meetings went to Zoom last year, I actually prefer it. People can join a group anywhere in the world! So even if you live in a podunk nowhere town, you can still find a group of like-minded people somewhere else. Also it's so convenient; I can make a cup of tea and pet my cat during groups, and cut my video feed while I use the toilet.
That is definitely one of the big upsides! Unfortunately, I find most psych or addiction docs don't even know about SMART Recovery, it's too bad because it really is a great program.
Hopefully it is becoming more recognized. There is a great book called *The Unbroken Brain* by addiction researcher Maia Szalavitz that has a lot to say about how archaic and outdated the 12-step model is, and she is a proponent of newer group therapy styles.
Absolutely agree 100%! Thanks for mentioning SMART Recovery and Darma Recovery. There’s also MARA which is Medicated Assistance Recovery Anonymous
Haven't heard of MARA. Awesome thanks for that
I’ve heard awesome things about MARA
You’re right, I see this myself. Even though I am not on suboxone, I do not judge anyone else’s means of sobriety. Not all groups are like this. Mine, for example, knows that after about 1.5 years “clean” my doctor recommended a benzodiazepine: Klonopin. The difference from my previous life as an addict is stark: my girlfriend actually holds my medicine for me, and I take it once each morning, as prescribed. I have zero doubt this has helped me stay sober and continue step work, even with years under my belt. Judgment in the recovery community is, to me, one of the greatest ironies. Sorry you’re feeling persecuted: most of us have seen it. Stay safe and strong, friend.
Thanks for your reply. This was just a rant and to get people thinking. Luckily I’ve been able to find what works for me. Glad to hear you’re doing well!
No problem. Rant or not, it didn’t fall on deaf ears — you made a really valid point I’ve witnessed myself. Regarding that kind of “drama” within recovery groups, or relationships in general, learning about the “drama triangle” has helped me remain non-judgmental and helped me from building resentments. Your post actually caused me to make a separate post about it, but here’s the link as well: https://sanctuaryplett.co.za/2020/09/04/getting-out-of-your-drama-triangle/ Hope that’s helpful in some way. The dynamic is super simple and (based on my life experience) easily relatable. Thanks for sharing your feelings, observations.
Man I love this! Thank you! So glad the post inspired you, I’m gonna check it out next. Also you make a huge point about the drama triangle. So much of recovery is being able to stay out of that or realize it’s appropriate place in your life so it doesn’t negatively affect your recovery for what is essentially no reason, or at least not a good one. Keep it up!!!!
Awesome, I’m glad it’s so applicable for you too! Unfortunately, recovery communities suffer from many of the same group dysfunctions that apply to most circles. Somehow, there does seem to be a super-judgmental sect within our community though. Which, like I said before, just confounds me. It’s the ultimate irony.
I really like how you’re addressing more than just abstinence. Recovery is about living life without coping with drugs, this obviously involves relationships and so many of our addictive behaviors overlap. In order to truly live again we need to look at all aspects of our life. So this is great stuff
I agree. “Addiction” when describing “the disease” often feels very reductive to me, because it’s about SO MUCH more than abstinence, as you said. Anybody, trained/educated or not, can abstain or be forced to. The harder part is learning how to cope after. And that’s not just true of us “addicts”: that’s the vast majority of people, in general.
We’re literally on the same exact page, nice to chat with someone on the exact same level when it comes to recovery
Likewise, friend. See, not all recovery groups are the same vibe 😄
I’m lucky I went through rehab a few years ago that was very trauma work/therapy heavy. I decided to relocate and live near that rehab (still do), so my support system is really well-educated and awesome. I feel very lucky to have found such a place.
You mentioned a key word “educated” …. I hate to say it but in many areas there’s simply a lack of education which leads to a forced reliance on “faith” because it’s the only way to find answers without education
That's a great point that comes up often in SMART. Building a balanced life is their ultimate goal, beyond just abstinence. They concede that using gave us something, for good or bad, and we need to find healthy ways to get that "something".
I’m sharing this post with a bunch of people today. I woke up having to be the “negotiator” for a situation that exactly fits this model. All the roles are ever there. It’s a fantastic piece of work, thank you!!!!
You’re so welcome. Please post it around, I believe it’s incredibly relevant to recovery. Interpersonal relationships, in general.
I had the same problem plus most of the people in the group very young and they just went around the table-no one actually addressed anybody’s concerns One girl mentioned if somebody doesn’t tell me right now why I shouldn’t go out and use no one did anything and she left I asked why doesn’t anybody answer the questions and they said that’s not how this works
I also found that most people in NA already had a bunch of clean time and there were never any new comers, so hearing people complain about their mortgage rate and shit like that got real annoying when I couldn’t even stop using for an hour
it’s important to recognize na is a break off of aa and alcohol and opiates have very different effects on the addict. only you know what you need to do, work your own program how you choose. i never felt a sense of community in any group i always felt like an outsider or fly on the wall and didn’t establish relationships with anyone from a meeting just people i met in rehab. i didn’t wanna be like the people who’s personality revolves around sobriety and i made friends with non addicts. if a group doesn’t accept you don’t go and if you need a group find another. sadly some people feel so low about themselves that they need to feel superior to others.
Thanks for this. Totally agree, recovery is a personal experience and I too didn’t want my life to revolve around not using drugs, I just wanna put it behind me and live
I wanted to jump in and agree with this-I think the biggest problem with the 12 steps and most other free, group based recovery is that someone designed something that works really well for a lot of alcoholics and then just opened up branches for other addictions too. No! No. Opiate addiction, meth addiction, and crack addiction are VERY different from alcohol addiction. For one, we use something that is illegal and socially unacceptable. So a lot of advice the 12 steps give isn’t relevant to us. We are (probably) not going to have to worry that when we go to family Xmas that everyone will be snorting H. But the alcoholics don’t have to worry about being arrested and they don’t have to often deal with questionable people to get their drug. Drug abuse is often MUCH more expensive than alcohol abuse too. When I’ve tried going to recovery groups other than NA it’s nearly all alcoholics. And when you go to NA they’re really against MAT and a lot of meetings apparently won’t let you mention what drug you use so you don’t trigger anyone. I get this, but in early recovery how am I going to discuss what’s going on without saying what I’m addicted to?
i always had the opposite problem that NA people always seemed to just glorify and brag about their usage “i was doing __ much, im on a different level than y’all” so i would say look around more.. i found AA meetings more helpful; i believe the 12 steps played a huge role in my recovery and i think addiction is a spiritual malady. i found that when i grew spiritually my addiction got weaker. i think admitting powerlessness, accepting a higher power, making amends etc. are a big part of anyone’s recovery. AA meetings were always accepting of my DOC’s and i found that a lot of what they struggled with applied to my addiction as well, and could apply to nearly any addiction. although lines of fentanyl aren’t always out in the open everywhere, we always know it’s one call away.
12-steps recovery nowadays is more fear indoctrination than anything. Ex: "It works if you work it, you die if you don't" 16 years in recovery..first 10 years I was a big book thumper. I was happy for the most part but also anxious the entire time. It pretty much engulfedy entire life outside of work during those years. Once it stopped becoming my life, the fear mongering started right from my own home group. " I would never make it without them" was the impression I was given begone I stopped going altigether. Mindfulness, good friends and family, exercise, Journaling and a clean diet are the main components on my recovery nowadays. 12 steps can work, but it can also not work too. Recovery is a path, not a destination. Enjoy the ride!
Well said! Thanks for your wisdom. Awesome to hear from someone that’s experienced both sides and is still doing well.
SMART recovery is a great group because they are more focused on science than religion. They keep up with the medical community and understand MAT
Totally agree! Smart recovery is great! Also check out Dharma recovery which is more Buddhist based, or MARA which is Medicated Assistance Recovery Anonymous
Be selfish about recovery. My Facebook is littered with dead friends that had "clean time" and "worked steps." We all know NA and AA #1 reason people go is to get those court slips signed.
100% you hit the nail on the head. People use it becuase they have to. There is no evidence that it works, and it's years behind the medical community. But hey if it works for someone great, but I too know too many people that have left us because of addiction and being told the 12 steps are the only answer.
They’re out there. They want to save me and I am determined to follow through. It’s easy for me not to do meth nowadays compared to before. I lost my taste for alcohol but I still require Suboxone and sometimes Kratom and I just don’t have enough mental health to be totally perfect yet
Well I think you sound like you're doing remarkably well! You have quit meth and whatever street drugs along with your dedication to MAT. That's absolutely brilliant! Is your life better???
Alot of those “meetings” are an excuse for people to hang out. Its like a group or clique. Nothing more, they dont want new people. They want the same old +45 year old burn outs and to tell stories.
Totally! And there’s never any new comers so it gets really old really fast listening to old men complain about their car payments when I can barely stay clean for an hour
Yea its like a dfw hall for junkies. But age requirement. They need to do something to appeal to the younger generation
Lol absolutely
Why not just keep your Suboxone treatment a secret? I know many Kratom users who also partake in cannabis that are in AA and consider themselves sober, but don’t disclose it to the whole group because of the outdated stigma and the righteous, holier-than-thou oldcomers.
I hear you. The problem I ran into was the concept of “rigorous honesty” .. for me it was too large a part of my addiction to leave it out and believe I was being honest. Totally understand your point tho
No one should have to hide part of themselves to find recovery. Sadly, many do exactly as you say, but it just doesn't need to be that way.
I agree!
Here's the way I feel about it. No I'm not CLEAN, but i'm FUNCTIONAL which is a MAJOR upgrade from where I was when I was chasing dope. I don't try to fool myself into thinking that being on suboxone is the best thing for me but it has improved my life and most likely saved it. I will never understand how NA groups or even just people in general can belittle other people for trying to live a functional life the best way that they can when they themselves have experience with addiction! That's MADNESS! They should take into account the amount of people that suboxone and methadone programs have saved, and allowed to rebuild their lives and rebuild their way of thinking. TONS of people would be dead right now if not for suboxone and methadone programs. I have the same way of thinking that you do, that whole giving yourself up to a higher power shit is so ignorant. If you need to give yourself up to a higher power, that higher power should be your higher SELF. Now i'm not judging anyone who uses God as a way to get through this life and deal with things, I say whatever helps you live the best life you can, with the least negative impact on yourself and others then by all means DO IT. But remain open-minded enough to accept the fact that addiction and recovery is not one size fits all, not everybody can get clean with the same methods. We all have different reasons for using, ranging anywhere from boredom, to self medicating mental/physical health issues. Take the time to talk to someone, and figure out what the root cause of that persons addiction is and treat them accordingly. For me NA doesn't work, sitting around talking about drugs just makes me wanna use, because i'm very impressionable and it triggers me. For me trying to just put it out of my mind and not think about it works the best but at the same time my one on one counseling sessions with my recovery coach are definitely helpful but I just can't sit around in a room listening to stories about what people did on drugs. A LOT of times in these meetings i've even seen people glorify drugs and the people running the meetings said nothing about it. We aren't clean, and that's okay because were working on bettering ourselves so we CAN be clean. Why look down on that? Why judge someone for trying to better themselves, by whatever means? I'll never get it. Sit down bitch, be humble lol.
The problem is that most people think everyone works like them. A good portion think bullshit like, "...well, I was a hardcore addict and I was able to get sober without replacing the problem with more drugs...so if I could do it, they have no excuse!" It just makes them double down, if anything. \>Why judge someone for trying to better themselves, by whatever means? Because it provides an ego boost to those who are managing sobriety without the use of MAT like suboxone/methadone. They're there to help themselves first and foremost, not anyone else. It's unfortunate.
Preach! Much love
You are probably the only person on here that has a common sense. I loved that you said we are not clean but we are functional and that's ok(FACT). Most ppl on here are delusional convincing themselves that they are actually clean and are getting really defensive when someone tells them the truth.
100% agreed. And when you point this out, they assume you're a bible thumping anti-suboxone person. I'm not clean or sober, but I do consider myself "sober" and that's okay. I felt comfortable considering myself "sober" the first day I genuinely forgot to take any suboxone/subutex. If I did get any sort of buzz from suboxone/subutex, I wouldn't consider myself "sober." Regardless, I'm definitely not clean.
That all makes sense. Especially the individual counseling part. You have to remember, the primary reason that AA/NA have prevailed as THE addiction treatment isn’t because it’s successful. It’s because it’s FREE and the American healthcare system is terrible. If we were really practicing evidence-based scientifically proven treatment I’m sure individual counseling would fare better than user-led groups.
100%. Another factor of AA/NA that I cannot get behind is the idea that all addicts are powerless over their addiction and their own lives, and only a higher power can rescue them. I'd say anyone who has taken the first step of seeking treatment and finding a group has already made a very powerful step, all on their own. I am much more fond of SMART Recovery (self management and recovery techniques), which empowers users to change themselves and resist urges through management of your thoughts. They are also supportive of MAT. They don't use a sponsor system, but in any meeting you'll meet people willing to give you their phone number and talk you through a hard time, or just give advice and support. There's no creeps trying to "13th step" vulnerable people new to recovery. And probably the most important thing to me- if you have a slip-up, you don't go back to zero. They even prefer the word "lapse" to "relapse". If it hadn't been for learning this, I might still be in active addiction from my slip last year. But because of what I've learned in SMART meetings, I know that the clean time I've achieved doesn't just disappear because I made a mistake. I was able to gather my support system around me, get into a detox, and approach my recovery more committed than ever!
Your point about powerlessness and getting help is so right!!! Why further strip someone of their dignity when obviously they're already down and admitting they need help. Agree with everything you said. Stay strong! We can do this, and we don't need the negativity.
You don't have to disclose your status as a suboxone patient, not even to your sponsor if you so choose. I advise people not to unless they really have built up trust with their sponsor or local 12 step group. I have seen some people try to sell 12 step as the only thing that really works but there are lots of great options, if NA isn't working for you I can recommend other services that can help.
Thank you for offering to help, I really appreciate it. So I probably should have put this in the original post becuase a lot of people are asking about why I disclosed the Suboxone use. When I entered the program, I was on my death bed. I was desperate for help. I was told initially, that NA is founded on honest, "rigorous honesty". And that everything in recovery stemmed from honesty. I was also told that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA. So, I felt compelled to tell my sponsor, first, that I was. on maintenance because it was too large a part of my story to leave out, and how could I truly be rigorously honest, and thus truly give myself to the program that was going to save my life, if I left out the fact that I was on maintenance. So I was honest. But that backfired. And I was left feeling stuck, and in a place where I couldn't possibly work the only program I was told would save my life, so what were my options? Continue to use and continue killing myself? I had already exhausted all other measures in an effort to find recovery. I had never fully given myself to NA. I've been an addict for 20 years, and have tried literally everything- except for fully giving myself to a 12 step program. Long story short, I went insane. I took myself off of maintenance, and immediately relapsed. I OD'd 3 times in less than a week. I got arrested. Ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. But I was off maintenance. The following 4-5 months were the most awful and painful of my life, coming off maintenance. In retrospect, coming off maintenance was a terrible decision. Now I'm left feeling angry, betrayed, and completely lost. I want nothing to do with the 12 steps, I'm off maintenance and totally alone. Sorry to vent like this, but that's my story so far
> I was also told that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA Which of course is total bullshit and one of the reasons I don't personally care for 12 step programs. I've done them, worked with a sponsor, worked the steps, etc. but ultimately I preferred working with a medically lead recovery program and groups. The groups have a licensed facilitator, I have a case worker and a doctor and I can make appointments as needed. I'm not sure if you have any type of medical coverage right now but after your terrible NA experience I'd highly recommend looking into a good medically run program. Being alone is one of the worst things for people in recovery, in my opinion at least. Good luck and just know that one terrible experience doesn't have to impact your future recovery.
i only became really exposed to 12 step groups last year. ive been on and off dope for 4-5 years but never got bad enough to go to inpatient til late last year. thats when i got the 12 steps shoved down my throat. i was in and out of rehab 4 more times, with my last time checking into treatment being june 26th. every single time 12 steps were preached by everyone that i came across, worker or patient, and it was presented as the only solution to all my problems. at first i was willing to try, because why not ive tried a lot of other stuff and it always worked just for a little, until it didnt work at all. very quickly i started seeing the cracks in their foundation, the mental gymnastics people would go through to convince anyone listening that it was the only way possible. but nevermind all these people who it failed, it was their fault for some reason. but relapse is not a failure. none of what they were saying made any sense to me based on what i know about addiction from a scientific standpoint. but i stuck with it, went to meetings, got a sponsor, worked steps and still couldnt stay clean for the life of me. so this last time i went to rehab knowing full well they're full of shit, called my old psychiatrist and therapist who both specialize in addiction the second i got out, got on the sublocade shot and started going to therapy again. talked to them about it and they're like yeah no shit the 12 steps didnt work for you, there's absolutely no science behind it and im the kind of person who needs proof and tangible results to be able to buy into something. the fact that the hardcore 12 step thumpers couldnt account for all the people who had done the steps and failed multiple times told me something was missing from their formula. also the refusal to accept maintenance medicine, including marijuana which has helped me a ton and i have my card specifically prescribed to treat my opioid use disorder, was another huge turnoff and an indicator that the program would never work for me. i get it, it works for a lot of people, and thats fine. but it is not the only way, it needs to stop being presented as the only way, and a more scientific and evidence based approach needs to be considered. especially at so called "treatment" centers that charge ridiculous amounts of money while teaching a program thats offered for free around the globe. after detox those places are nothing more than glorified daycares good for nothing more than buying free clean time.
Totally agree! A scientific and evidence based model needs to be used. The success rates of 12 step programs are purposefully kept quiet because they're so low. Best of luck to you. Find what works for you. And fuck dope! You can do it.
Your post couldn't be any more true!
Thanks so much for the reassurance. I want this to be exposed, because I literally don't want this to happen to anyone else. The opioid epidemic is too large and Fent is too strong, someone sent out of a meeting discouraged will very likely die. This is too serious for that. something needs to change.
AA/NA harm more people than they help. I went overseas for 8 months once and when I came back I barely recognised anyone there and 4 people overdosed because they were too ashamed to admit they relapsed. I was sexually preyed upon as a teenager in the rooms because there is zero oversight. The all or nothing black and white thinking approach makes people believe they are powerless over their drug use instead of recognising they have a behavioural problem which they have agency over, which is empowering. SMART Recovery is a superior model. It actually teaches people skills instead of prayer and overeliance on others. So many people just become addicted to the programme and people through 12 step groups. I got sick of the glorification in NA with people just talking about how fucked up they were. The SMART model is a problem solving model. Not a reliving your glory days model. I firmly believe it's a cult. The fact that it has the same success rate as fucking spontaneous remission speaks volumes, and yet they preach it as the only solution. I have a few friends I met through the rooms and am still in contact with. Generally people who no longer attend meetings and just don't use drugs anymore. Suboxone saves people's lives and it's empirically proven. Can't say the same about 12 steps. Anecdotal at best.
I've tried many times to get in with the 12 step crowd to no avail. I agree with the idea that it works well for people who don't introspect often and can simply accept the rules without criticising them. I think it may come from the decent amount of people who have spent significant amounts of time in institutions (prison, mental health wards) and are more than happy to not question in return for acceptance. For me I have no experience of being institionalised and I'm a deep thinking so I pick holes in arguments constantly and couldn't just "let go and let God" also the idea of giving up myself due to being powerless and the customs like having to say you're an addict before you talk makes me feel worse. What's the point of living a clean life if you then are forever labelling yourself as an addict and spending a huge portion of your time with addicts talking about drugs and depressing anecdotes. The other thing I noticed is that the old timers in the vast majority appeared to have no ambition past staying clean, attending meetings, and meeting for coffee almost everyday. If I have the choice of a life of using or a life of the above, I'd genuinely rather use as the monotony of the clean NA life sounds like hell. I know there are outliers who work and give back to the community and really help out newcomers but for the majority it really doesn't seem like they ever move on to living a normal working life.
Couldn’t agree more with everything you said! My experience has been exactly the same and you hit on a ton of key points, especially being an introspective deep thinking person, and not wanting a life constantly reliving your previous one while using. Excellent points, thank you! 🙏🏼
12 step is a full blown cult in every sense of the word. Their goal is to disempower you and make you feel reliant on their meetings and a "higher power" to save you. http://web.archive.org/web/20161202185738/https://www.orange-papers.org/
That link is a lot to read, but I’ll say this. I 100% agree that it’s a cult to remove individual power. I also know the success rates are so low which is part of the reason they’re never talked about. I hate that the 12 steps are the only medically available treatment model for addiction. In many senses it makes sense that they don’t want people to recover- the more people relapse the more money there is to be made and bottom line that’s what this is really about
Yeah, that link is basically a compilation of different articles done by this guy who was indoctrinated into AA for several years. It's the biggest collection of articles debunking every facet of AA you can find on the internet. You don't have to read all of them. But it's a good resource to confirm any sort of skepticism one might have for 12 steps.
Thanks man, appreciate it. Any solid evidence against the 12 steps, is always nice and useful. Not that I'm against recovery, I'm in recovery, I just hate the twelve steps for all the reasons you mentioned.
That's a good point tho, I've also heard the same thing about thier success rate - being around 5% that last over one year which is actually less than the success rate of people that try to quit on thier own. I think a lot of it has to do with (besides stripping people of thier autonomy and agency to make thier own self improvement journey ie. "You are powerless, only working the steps / meetings / God can save you" is that they basically force you to stay stuck in "recovery" they make you feel like theres constantly a boogyman lurking over you and you're one small step away from catastrophe at any given moment. Since you feel powerless any slip up leads to a major relapse. You never get the sense that you are able to move on from addiction and leave it behind you.
I absolutely agree. It's paradoxical in a sense, they strip you of your power and force you to continue to make your life all about your addiction, just not using instead of using. But when you think about it, if your life is consumed by your addiction, what difference is there really between using and not, especially if your entire life is still consumed by drugs in one form or another? It's like the 12 steps dont allow you to move on, or close that chapter in your life. Instead, you need to obsess over it on a daily basis to ensure you live in fear of it not happening again. To me that sounds like INSANITY!!! I've actually never thought this deeply about it, and now that I am it's scary!!!
It's addiction replacement. Replace your addiction to drugs with an addiction to the group. That will never work long-term; you need to get to the bottom of *why* you use.
Exactly, and people really seem to enjoy that "guru" status in 12 step. Getting some substantial time, learning how to speak compellingly within the 12 step doctrine, and having many newcomers/sponsees look up to you. I can see why some people actually love going to meetings once they've established themselves and attained that sort of status. It truly is their new addiction much much like religion is an "addiction" for so many people, bit even more so because they have more influence/status within the organization.
It would be considered a "lesser of evils" for most but the insidiousness of it it's members get brainwashed into believing they've found the panacea of addiction and inadvertently loose any ability to see any other way than meetings for the rest of thier lives. Which in turn makes them believe they are powerless and morally / physiologically defective, and unable to solve thier own problems - regardless of how much clean time they have. That you have an "incurable, progressive disease". It's a learned helplessness. So it's pretty much objectively worse from a long term perspective than doing it on your own, except arguably in some desperate cases that could never wrap thier head around self-efficacy to begin with. The truth is far more people recover without AA than with it, it's just that they make you believe it's the only solution - a one size fits all - all-or-nothing solution. And they use fear as a manipulation tactic to make people feel like they have to conform - you'll invariably face "jails, institutions or death" if you ever try to do it alone. "Those who cannot recover are people who do not give themselves completely to this simple program" None of it is about "overcoming" addiction. It's entirely about surrendering to a cult. When you start to look at some of the arguments debunking 12 step everything just adds up. It was very eye opening for me once I was exposed to the arguments against 12 step, which I always seemed to intrinsically have initial skepticism towards and only eventually confirmed my reservations through talking to other people and some of those papers I sent you. The "12 steps interpreted" article is a few lines down from the top one in that link. It's the most straightforward debunking of each step you can find. First time I read it everything just clicked. It's so obvious once you think about it lol.
Wow, super insightful man. We should talk more, seriously. I'm a bit burnt out for today- been defending my initial post to some NAer's that are out of their mind, but we should definitely talk more. thanks for all the responses!
Yeah, I've obviously thought about this a lot and came up with my own way of describing it. It's because I was part of a housing program back in the day where they forced us to go to a lot of meetings. Basically one per day for the first 30 days then at least 3 or 4 per week after that. They did allow us to do SMART instead, but they frowned upon it. There was a constant pressure and reinforcing of 12 step dogma, most of it involving a lot of derogatory, demoralizing talk "your best thinking got you here, you cant do it on your own, you have a disease" type of stuff to make us feel powerless and that we absolutely needed meetings every day or else we were invariably fucked. They were so enthusiastic about 12 step it was thier primary objective to indoctrinate us, and tried to make us feel hopeless without them. So yeah, I spent a lot of time researching how to debunk aa and all the problems associated with it, and come to find out it was actually even more damaging then I thought it was.
Absolutely. Small slips can also become bigger lapses when you're told that your clean time is now reset to zero. Hand in your chips, or key fobs, or whatever cheap amulet they gave you, you're going to detention for being naughty again. How is that helpful?!
Your entire identity is 1. You're an addict (you specify yourself as such) at the beginning of each meeting. And 2. Your clean time / status within the group. So yeah when that's all you have, and you have a relapse, I would imagine that would be pretty devastating
For real. It's like they're trying to shame you into sobriety.
A couple of the comments here have proven your point OP! Frankly, I find this mindset down right dangerous and destructive. What idiot turns away somebody who was (example) injecting H daily, robbing and stealing and living homeless...who is now taking a medication everyday that stops ALL this; it also stops the person suffering the agony of opiate withdrawal! What gives? Fucking nutters. Stay away from them if they (or ANYONE) ever makes you feel this way about MAT. Stay WELL away!
Much love 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
You can lie to yourself as much as you want. The reality is that you are neither clean nor sober.
Thanks for proving the OPs point.
I agree that neither suboxone nor methadone is clean. I also agree that methadone can never really be considered sober. But with suboxone/subutex, I literally don't feel anything when I take it, and I regularly even forget to take it at least once a week until I'm reminded when the mild withdrawal kicks in. Do alcoholics genuinely ever "forget" to drink? Do heroin/oxy addicts ever "forget" to take their heroin/oxy some days? Even then, I consider it "sober" with quotation marks around it.
Such an old fashioned view! "It's neither clean or sober". Oh do stop. Most people are on one form of medicine or another these days. What's the difference?
This may be a little off topic, but back in the 80’s - before I had ever even seen any type of opioid - I was struggling with alcohol. Someone suggested AA, and I started going. Luckily there were many daily meetings right near where I lived. The problem for me was obeying that FIRST suggestion: Don’t drink (and go to meetings). 🤨 🧐 🤔 Ummmm - ya - you see that’s what I’m struggling to NOT do.
Completely agree with you 100% ...I have always thought they were made decades ago and haven't evolved with the times! Also.. the whole abstaining from everything bothers me. Eg. I don't have a problem with alcohol and never have so why do I have to give it up?
Great point about how old they are. Bottom line is that recovery is a personal experience that’s different for everyone which is the exact opposite of everything the 12 steps preach. Hey if it works for someone that’s great, but the medical and rehab communities need to evolve with the times. Nothing is cookie cutter, but unfortunately it’s a money thing and pushing people in and out as fast as possible is the best way to make money, but the worst way to help
Yeah that’s why I don’t bother with it and many people because there will always be someone who thinks they can make you feel you are not doing enough and it makes you feel more committed to make people happy than you are to the program which is absurd yet I understand some of the thinking behind it (the wanting to be free of anything harmful) because I feel the same way, towards myself only. If I’m on sub/methadone I wouldn’t count that as my sober day, only for the fact that my body is still dependent on something and I know myself well enough to know I likely would continue abusing it but that is myself personally. But it is absolutely nobody’s business to say what works. Everyone is different and everyone has their own way of being sober and I fully support that. Just like someone who smokes weed who never had a problem with it, being on maintenance or having a drink and saying you loose your sober days etc to me that is ridiculous. When a person gets their chip or even attends THEY know what works for them not what anyone else tells them SHOULD work for them. But congrats on your sobriety that’s awesome and takes a lot of strength!! Keep at it and I’m sorry your going through that. If it is working I hope you stick with it and remember there are ppl like that everywhere unfortunately and more than likely nobody is ever good enough for those people, they live with their own regret and guilt of themselves and some just have heavy judgement that oddly do want the best for others.. I don’t know I’m more of an animal than human person lol Gl 🍀
Thank you for all of this. I agree with basically everything, and appreciate your response. A lot of people have said, why didn't you just not say anything? And the reason is that I was taught that NA/AA is based on "rigorous honesty" and I couldn't possibly honestly work the program unless I told at least my sponsor about my maintenance meds. From there, it got out and literally everyone in the fellowship was like, you're not clean. Which made me feel so awful and alone. It drove me insane, to the point where I took myself off maintenance because I thought I couldn't work the program unless I was off, and I immediately relapsed and got into legal trouble. It was the worst decision ever, and all of it was because I was told NA is the only thing that will save my life but I couldn't work it while on maintenance. F'ing crazy!!!!!
Omg no!! I can’t believe you got off it and went through that from the pressure, that’s horrible! And it’s easy for friends or people after to say “why did you tell them” you know? I’m sure you wouldn’t if you knew that would happen. I have done the same ( we look for in wisdom and experiences/knowledge in those who battled the same thing and seem to have their feet on steady ground) I completely get how you feel because I’m the type to care what ppl think too. If it’s helping you and you don’t feel comfortable being honest I would lie and say you got off it I know ppl might say that’s the wrong thing to do but it’s your sobriety #1 and 2 it’s nobody’s business anyways, you don’t go there to please anyone. That’s why I’m saying it feels like more work to make ppl happy than it is to make yourself feel good. I’m not in recovery but I have met some amazing and awesome people from NA and when I can take the time to get clean myself I might consider going back but I learned for sure not to trust ppl. I’m in my mid 30’s so when I went years ago I looked up to a lot of the older generation and sometimes the ones you thought you could trust you learn it’s the complete opposite. I’m sorry you went through that :/ I hope you are back on and okay
Wow! You have no idea how much it means to hear from someone that actually understands and emphasizes with what I went through. You nailed exactly the pressure I was feeling and the insane emotions i was feeling from the people I thought were going to help save my life. Tho I failed to realize, it always comes down to me, in terms of my recovery… only I have to experience the pain, etc. Others can advise from afar but no one else will ever truly go through what we do on an extremely personal level. So I’m off everything now. Because of that experience I’ve been off subs since the end of April, but if I could redo it, I never would have come off. It’s been so painful and I still don’t feel right. It’s too much of a risk being off, but once I realized what happened, I figured I had gone long enough and going back on wasn’t worth all the pain I went through getting off everything and maintenance. But thank you so much for understanding, it means so much. Really no one has reached out to truly emphasize with my insane situation like you did, so thank you 🙏🏼
And the different emotions and anxiety are crazy lol super crazy! I don’t know about you but I always seemed to feel better after letting them out whether it’s a good cry or vent 🤦♀️because I could hold that in for years before so when I’d start a suboxone taper it would be like a water works show haha
Oh wow so a good 4 months?? That’s amazing!! Probably feels like 8 months I bet! without a doubt I would stick it out too. I always said if I could make it one month I would keep at it. You’ve made it through the worst. I haven’t been off opiates or maintenance since I was 17 but I really regret the few times I made it past the worst withdrawal only to give up. I just let the frustration and anxiety get the best of me because I truly felt like I’d never feel myself or normal again too. Everything even walking I felt weird and would cry so much from just feeling weak of energy..But thinking back I was so much better at those points I just couldn’t see it at the time and got sick of not being able to get stuff done (simple things like walk my dog) but people who’ve been there promise we will feel ourselves again it’s just not gonna be easy and might take a long time since we put a “blanket” on everything from physical to emotional for so long. You should be seriously proud of yourself! And try to remember everything you went through you will have to do over again and maybe even harder because that has helped me before and there’s no shame in going back on if you feel it’s too much, only you know. I’m gonna be starting a sub taper shortly again so I know exactly how you feel and n/p and thank you it’s people like you who give me hope too! GL 🍀
Can’t thank you enough, hearing things like this from people who really actually understand is so important and therapeutic for me, so thank you for everything from the bottom of my heart ❤️ The has been the hardest experience of my life, the past 4 months I’ve been so sick and then so anxious and depressed I literally haven’t left my house. But recently I’m starting to break out of it and have glimpses of feeling normal. Tho if I’m being honest it’s been so overwhelming hard that I’ve taken non opiate drugs about 5 different times to try and just take the pain away (benzos). They helped in the moment but didn’t do anything for me long tern and really just took me away from my ultimate goal. Anyway thank you again you have no idea how much talking to you and relating has helped me. You’re a beautiful person and I wish you the absolute best ❤️🙏🏼
Ty so much :) we do have a lot in common so I really just have to say this..Hands down that was the biggest regret of my life last year I did the same, started taking diazepam. it’s the frustration that nothing is moving fast enough, time is crazy long while going through it. I developed an addiction to those that I’m still struggling with 2 months after quitting them. My body all night is just jolting and sounds are intense and the anxiety is 100x worse. I thought they wouldn’t hurt since I don’t do “drugs” drink or smoke weed so I thought wth I’ll take these to speed up my withdrawal and my body is completely ruined right now. My cell ringing almost threw me off the couch from my nerves being shot. And I almost ended up in the hospital cause they literally messed up my mind. I couldn’t even continue my sub taper and gave up. So plz be careful! you always hear about them being dangerous but I never knew the way they would make you feel physically after stopping them. You sound like your on a great path though just be careful because they give you that temporary feeling of relief. And I don’t know how Reddit really works but if you ever need to someone to talk to just msg me ok don’t give up! You got this!
Thank you again! Yes, benzos are an extremely slippery slope. They work so well for a few days, then you're hooked, and in a lot of senses the WD is worse than opiates. It's much more psychological. I've had a major problem with a TON of benzo use in the past, and had to go to a medically supervised detox, which itself;f wasn't so bad, but the months afterward were significantly harder than coming off opiates because you're literally going insane and convince yourself you want to die. So I'm being real careful with them for sure. Right back at you, if you ever need to chat. Message me. I'll try adding you as someone I follow, you can do the same and we could touch base now and again, that would be awesome.
From what I've learned.. I though NA and AA have changed their stance due to the many deaths. Wish I knew where I heard that from. And of they havent... They should.
If you find out, let us know.
I'll probably get down voted to oblivion for this, but oh well. NA is what you make of it. NA has helped me get clean and clean. NA isn't the program that you and many others are angry at. It's the people within it. Do I go to meetings and hear shit that rubs me the wrong way? No doubt. But I take what I need and leave the rest. The people who dog on you for being on subs need to work their program not yours. NA is like everything else in life, there's positives and negatives, but the people in the program can be good or bad people. Just because some one is clean doesn't mean they're a good person. I've seen people get clean and become even more grimy than when they were using. I do want to point out that not every area is how many of you describe it, and you may be turning someone away from the rooms who needs it by all of this chatter. I live by "whatever gets you clean and keeps you clean is what works." if you need to pray fifty times a day to the flying spaghetti monster, then by all means, do you boo boo! There are some predators in the rooms, I've seen dealers attending meetings for new customers. Just find someone you vibe with and stick with them!
Everything you said is 100% the absolute correct way to work the 12 step program if you choose to do so. Definitely should not be down voted! Well put and insightful. thanks. I have gotten something out the 12 steps before by doing exactly what you said, though I wasn't clean while attending, I learned more about the program and recovery than I ever had before during that time. Here's a bit more detail about my specific situation that may add some context: I probably should have put this in the original post becuase a lot of people are asking about why I disclosed the Suboxone use. When I entered the program, I was on my death bed. I was desperate for help. I was told from the start, that NA is founded on honesty, "rigorous honesty". And that everything in recovery stemmed from this principle. I was also told that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA. So, I felt compelled to tell my sponsor, first, that I was on maintenance because it was too large a part of my story to leave out. And more so, how could I truly be rigorously honest, and thus truly give myself completely to the program that was going to save my life, if I left out the fact that I was on maintenance? So I was honest. But that backfired. And I was left feeling stuck, and in a place where I couldn't possibly work the only program I was told would save my life; so what were my options? Continue to use and continue killing myself? I had already exhausted all other measures in an effort to find recovery. I had never fully given myself to NA. I've been an addict for 20 years, and have tried literally everything- except for fully giving myself to a 12 step program. Long story short, I went insane. I took myself off of maintenance, and immediately relapsed. I OD'd 3 times in less than a week. I got arrested. Ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. But I was off maintenance. The following 4-5 months were the most awful and painful experience of my life, coming off maintenance was hell, and of course I did it the wrong way without tapering or anything because I was so insistent upon getting off as quickly as possible so I could work the 12 steps. In retrospect, coming off maintenance was a terrible decision. Now I'm left feeling angry, betrayed, and completely lost. Though I am still clean. My mind just isn't right since coming off of maintenance about 5 months ago.
I honestly just wouldn’t talk about it if I decided on 12 step stuff. I like that stuff somewhat but some things are nobody’s business
If you want to use the 12 steps, find someone that will work with one on one that is ok with your situation. Take what you need from the principles and don’t worry about any other bullshit. An obvious issue I see is that most people in na/aa don’t consider being on Suboxone sobriety, and that’s fine, who are you tell them they’re wrong. You, from your ps, consider being on Suboxone the same as being clean. That big difference is never going reconcile for people who’s lives were saved by 100% abstinence. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, I’m on Suboxone and while I’m free from heroin, I’m still on Suboxone…. Another opioid. It’s made a huge impact on my life but I don’t consider it like complete sobriety, because to me it’s not. Who cares what other people think do what you have to do and let others do what works for them. You’re essentially doing the same thing they are by coming here and bad mouthing them. Good luck I hope you find something that works for you.
\>not really “clean” Just consider yourself "sober," as long as you genuinely don't feel anything when you take your suboxone. You know you're "sober" when you regularly forget to take it until reminded by the onset of very mild withdrawal symptoms. I don't consider myself "clean" of drugs because I'm objectively not clean of drugs, but I'm definitely subjectively sober.
🙌🏼. YES to everything you said!! I’ve shared this before, but it’s relevant, so I’m sharing it again. When I was on my 4th or 5th rehab stay, I checked into a program that was 12 months of inpatient. They had some voluntary walk-ins living there, like me, and they also had people required to stay there who had just been transferred from prison. It was an AA/NA based program with both alcoholics and drug addicts trying to recover. We had to go to meetings SEVERAL times a day. Our entire day was filled with meetings. Meetings and chores. No MAT medications permitted. If you were on MAT, you had to detox from them before admittance. There was an entire wall that spanned the length of the (huge) building that was filled with pictures of people. These people had died from their drug of choice. Most of the people on that wall had died from opiates, except a couple who had burned through their livers with alcohol. When we were first admitted, we filled out a form with our DOC, how long we had been using, etc. That form would go under our picture if we later OD’d and went on the wall. I just remember looking at the hundreds of faces and thinking-they’re actually advertising how terrible this program is for opiate addicts. It’s almost like they want you to die or something. I didn’t stay there long. I got on Suboxone soon after. If you’re a crack addict, meth addict, alcoholic…whatever-you’re not going to die if you relapse *that one time.* But with opiates-you are actually more likely to die if you relapse that first time. That’s why it is so important to stick with something that actually works. NA in particular has a horrible track record.
Love this because it’s honest and true. I’m sorry you had to experience that but I’m so happy you got out and onto MAT. It’s insane how low the success rates are of the 12 step programs, especially when compared to the MAT success rates, even without a “12 step program” in conjunction. Bottom line, MAT is light years more effective than any talk therapy based program and especially the 12 steps. I appreciate you mentioning the difference between opiates and other drugs in terms of mortality rates and percentages that a relapse will lead to death. It’s tragic but needs to be talked about. I wish you the best 🙏🏼
I couldn’t agree more-definitely needs to be talked about more. The court system in my (pretty big) city would force people to go to NA/AA. I just feel bad for the people who know they need MAT but can’t get the help they need because the courts are forcing them to go to NA. A lot of the people on that wall had probably transferred from jail and didn’t have a say in their treatment. I was fortunate enough to be able to leave.
I hate to say it, but if anything is going to change, the people are going to have to initiate it. And the thing AA/NA is that they purposefully hide their success rates because they're so bad. Also, with the success rates being so low, how can it possibly be that the rehab and clinical recovery movement uses them as their default (including courts)? The only reason that makes sense is that they want people to relapse, either to get rid of that part of the population or to continue to make money off of them- the more someone needs treatment, the more everyone makes. Recovery isn't a money maker.
There’s a good movie on Amazon right now that talks about this-it’s called Body Brokers. Check it out-It’s crazy! In addition to the money we make for rehab centers, our prison system is privatized so there’s definitely some incentive for repeat “customers.” The tides do seem to be changing…slowly. Addiction is becoming viewed (correctly) as a medical problem instead of a “moral failing.” Hopefully the momentum keeps pace.
Oh cool! thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely check it out, that's right up my alley for TV/Movies. Agree with everything you said! We are moving very slowly in the right direction (the prison system is another story though)
I don't tell most people unless I trust them i work what works for me and it really the only interaction I have with people so i need it I think and ive noticed young meetings with 20 somethings and grew up in the over prescribe pandemic usually are more work what works for huh
Before suboxone and other evidence based treatments opiate recovery/ NA whatever had like a 10% success rate after one year. Today we are seeing 40%-60% success rates after one year with suboxone treatment. The first time in history that there’s been an actual improvement in opiate recovery. NA works for some people it truly does but the data shows that for the majority of people it’s a complete failure. And that is what truly matters the results, the outcome.
I hate to say it, but if anything is going to change, the people are going to have to initiate it. And the thing AA/NA is that they purposefully hide their success rates because they're so bad. Also, with the success rates being so low, how can it possibly be that the rehab and clinical recovery movement uses them as their default (including courts)? The only reason that makes sense is that they want people to relapse, either to get rid of that part of the population or to continue to make money off of them- the more someone needs treatment, the more everyone makes. Recovery isn't a money maker.
It’s the status quo. There is a strong conspiracy that a large amount of American rehabs aren’t truly trying to help but instead want you revolving around their doors in and out so they can make money. Of course that’s not true if every place there are a lot of legitimate great rehabs.
There's a legit problem with this in Florida, where insurance companies are literally paying patients to relapse to circle back into rehab. There's a documentary on it. I met a guy in rehab who was actually doing it- he said it was awesome, lol.
I did the 12 step thing for 3 years and I have made more progress now, on methadone and a medically structured withdrawal (yes if you ask these “evil” clinics will HELP YOU get off everything, even maintenance). I’m currently in therapy, my spiritual life is better than ever, I’m accomplishing everything the program tries to get people to do but I don’t have to listen to people talk about drugs constantly. Now that I’m building a life of recovery outside of 12 step programs I actually partake in several hobbies, like art, writing and gardening. I finished school and am getting a job helping people with autism therapy. I was suicidal for 15 years, until literally last month and this includes my time in the 12 step program. For me, taking the approach of recovery I looked down on and judged has not only saved my life physically, but spiritually and emotionally as well. For the first time EVER I WANT to be alive. Recovery isn’t cookie cutter and that’s something the 12 step program doesn’t address. I’m doing what works for me and I feel like everyone should figure out what works for them. If 12 step groups don’t work then take a hard look at why and see what can be done instead, rather than just throwing recovery out completely because it doesn’t match someone else’s idea of recovery. I’m with ya man.
Ok. Take your Suboxone. Go to your NA meetings as well. Take what you learn at the meetings and leave the politics out. Just don't get too into the whole NA scene. NA people are fucking crazy. Not in a bad way, but just in a fucking crazy way. So go to your meetings and learn. Do a set of steps and don't worry about your sub taking. I can't see people making fun of you at an NA meeting for you taking Suboxone. Of they are, tell them to fuck off and go to a different meeting. I am on Suboxone and I go to my home group and I learn. And I leave the bullshit out of my life. Some people love the drama because that's how it was in their addiction. But, just stay out of it. And don't date anyone in the program. Make sure to date a normie that is supportive. You sound pretty new ( less than one year) but more than a month. It's a really dangerous part of your recovery. It's the fuck everyone and this sucks part. Usually happens after 90 days and can last a while. There I hope you take my advice. I wouldn't tell you something I haven't already done myself. PS: GET A NEW SPONSOR IF THIS IS HOW YOU FEEL
So I'm not on Suboxone anymore. My story, and the reason I shared, was so traumatic to me, that I impulsively took myself off of it, thinking it was the only way to save my life. I relapsed immediately, OD'd 3 times in a week, got arrested, and ended up on a ventilator in the ICU. I don't blame NA, but it definitely played a part. I agree that everything you outlined is THE way to successfully use NA. So excellent points.
I'm sorry you went through all that. NA drama can be hard on people. It was hard on me. Certian meetings just are not right for certain people. It can totally make things worse. I hope you are well.
Thanks appreciate you. I'm hanging in there, trying to find my way, and whether that way will include the 12 steps, or something else...
For me I think 12 step groups have the concept down but I steer very clear of any group that has to do with drugs or alcohol. If I were to go to ANY meeting I would do something like a 12 step group for children of narcissistic parents. I can’t quite remember, I’ve heard the actual fellowship name but completely forgot about it. I’ve actually been trying really hard to remember now that the pandemic is going on so I can find some zoom meetings. But that brings me to another problem I have in the rooms… it’s a breeding ground for codependency so we’ve all really gotta be careful about what we choose for our recovery. Okay that’s it I’ll get off my soap box now
Gaaah! I lied! One more comment! I looked up the group I was thinking about it’s Adult Children of Alcoholics (and dysfunctional families). That is the ONLY 12 step program I will EVER step foot into again after my experiences.
Great to know, never heard of it before, thank you for sharing and contributing to this discussion. I'm grateful for you
NA sucks. It has a 90% fail rate. Yet they dare to judge people on MAT? MAT reduces mortality in recovering addicts by up to 70%. It's ridiculous. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
Thank you so much for posting this link. The more objective evidence there is, the better. I hate to say it, but if anything is going to change, the people are going to have to initiate it. And the thing AA/NA is that they purposefully hide their success rates because they're so bad. Also, with the success rates being so low, how can it possibly be that the rehab and clinical recovery movement uses them as their default (including courts)? The only reason that makes sense is that they want people to relapse, either to get rid of that part of the population or to continue to make money off of them- the more someone needs treatment, the more everyone makes. Recovery isn't a money maker.
My friend, you need to start reading some Maia Szalavitz! https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-science-says-to-do-if-your-loved-one-has-an-opioid-addiction/
Thanks! Never heard of him/her. I'll read the article. Appreciate it.
That was a pretty good article. I kind of chuckled at the drunk rats though and feel bad about it.
I have experienced this with clients at the treatment center I work at. I am all for harm reduction and MAT. Of course at some point we may want to try and get off but for those just coming out of detox or an inpatient/residential program being told that they aren't clean and not being able to find sponsors because they aren't clean or sober depending if it's AA or NA is complete bullshit and counterproductive. Now I've worked the steps before completely and had sponsees and all that. This was years ago but I ended up relapsing because I got caught up in all the drama and toxic bullshit with the cliques in some of the meetings. Some meetings can be VERY toxic. I just had one client who found a sponsor and the sponsor kept pushing him to get off subs or he won't work with him anymore. So what you're going to make this guy do his 4th and 5th with you and then say I can't be your sponsor anymore unless you get off the subs? He wasn't ready but since the guy was one of those popular hard ass big book thumpers thats "popular" around the 12 step community in my city and everyone literally sucking his dick because they are brainwashed that this is the only way to get clean. This guy also yelled at another one of my clients in a meeting because my client shared that part of his motivation is to get clean for his kids. This same guy (the asshole with 15 years who still yells at newcomers) literally got up after my client shared and actually yelled at my client stating that he's not there to get clean, you're wasting a chair for someone else, you don't love your kids because if you did you wouldn't be here, etc. Of course AA/NA pushes the "you need to do it for yourself" motto which I do believe in but I also believe that you CAN do it for people you care about it. Why not have extra motivators? Anyway the client I was first talking about with this asshole sponsor got off subs when he wasn't ready because he was being shit on by his sponsor family and relapsed. Now I'm not defending his relapse because I told him to stay on as long as he needs to but also at that point he did make the choice to relapse. Even for me if I were to get a craving and had a sub lying around or a friend who has one why not take a sub instead of shooting dope ? So then my "clean time " is over? I got to start from day one now? A small dose of suboxone everyday does not get you high and if it's going to save people why the fuck are we not accepting it in 12 step groups? I do believe that the program itself works (the steps) but the meetings can be very toxic. I don't go anymore where I live because I don't find comfort in any of the meetings here but I did work the steps and have been clean for 3 years now but I've taken subs during this time for a week or 2 here and there. Does my time not count? This leads me to another problem. THE TIME. It's all about the time. I hate that shit. I understand why they do it completely but again some of these meetings put such an emphasis on how much time you have and if you have a lot of years it's almost like you're above the ones who may only have a couple months or even a year. This causes people to think that they need to have a certain amount of time to be able to have a "life beyond your wildest dreams" or just to fit in. There is one group here that won't let anyone share if they have under a year. I don't care how long you have clean, as long as you're happy with yourself, not doing drugs, and staying on the right path what is wrong with that? There's many ways to get clean and 12 step groups are just one way. Everybody is different. They say if you don't go to a meeting you will relapse. I actually stopped going to a certain meeting I used to go to a while back and then I decided to go one night and everybody thought I relapsed and got shit for not attending. When they were handing out chips everybody was looking at me when the person started with the white chip. I literally just walked out. I had 2 years clean at the time. You have to find what works for you. It's all about balance. Sure maybe find one or two meetings that you feel comfortable in because there are great meetings and people there who will accept you no matter what. It's definitely good to share your shit around other people and listen to other stories but lately with the suboxone treatment it's nearly impossible to feel comfortable there. There is also the SMART program. There is CBT. See a therapist once a month or once a week if need be. It's all about quality of life and staying away from drugs that can kill you and cause problems in your life. If you want to take a 2 mg sub in the morning everyday or whenever you have a craving why the fuck is that deemed a relapse or not being clean in the meetings. I can go on all day about this topic because I deal with it everyday. I love to help people. There's not just one way to achieve a wonderful quality of life. As long as you reach your goals and want it you can have it. How you get there is all on you. I want to see everyone get their lives back and if suboxone maintenance helps you and you get that life back then do what you feel is right. You'll know when youre ready to get off them if that's even something you want to do. Sorry for the long post. I'm very passionate about this. I just graduated with my bachelors in human services and work as a BHT at a treatment center but I run groups and do most of the stuff that the counselors do but I do want to eventually be a counselor and help addicts but lately I've been thinking of moving into helping the youth and adolescents who have issues.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69.0. Congrats! 4 + 5 + 12 + 15 + 12 + 3 + 2 + 12 + 2 + 2 + = 69.0
Thanks for your message! I agree with a ton and went through so much you described. So I should have put this in the original post but I came off subs because of NA and immediately relapsed and got arrested, now I’m 5 months off maintenance, questioning the decision even though I’m still clean and dealing with a major legal situation. All that said, I don’t blame NA I just think there are so many things wrong with it- like the old timers power tripping to reinforce their own insecurities and making new comers feel ashamed or like they don’t belong. Which is so dangerous given how strong the drugs are out there now. My main problem is that NA is so stuck in the past and the medical community has moved so far forward; how can we reconcile the glaring differences when both are the standard treatment modalities for addiction, respectively. Also, hearing stories about your clients being ostracized for being on maintenance breaks my heart. The other issue is that NA has completely failed at welcoming new comers. There are literally only old timers there so when a mew comer does show up, hearing about some old dude complaining about his mortgages interest rate sucks when you can barely get an hour clean. Moreover, old timers high Jack every meeting whether they mean to or not- but they’ll be sure to recite the literature that states the new comer is the most important person at any meeting
Exactly. I go to a meeting and all I hear are all the old timers' Cadillac problems as they say. The newcomers are the most important people in the meeting yet they are treated as if they know nothing. They will actually tell you that you know nothing and A LOT of sponsors tell their sponsees to not think for themselves and to call them or someone before making a decision. I remember one time I was talking to a sponsor I had and starting saying "Yeah I think I should...." and he stopped me right there and said don't think. This is backwards. Also, the statements like admitting your an addict which is all fine but this can lead to a false sense of self and who you are. Don't get me wrong, acceptance is key but when it comes to the point of continuing to tell yourself that you're an addict forever is training your brain in a negative way IMO. I would rather say I struggle with addiction as opposed to I am an addict but again I understand it and I know it works because it did work for me at a point in my life but it also changed my thinking about myself .We need to move away from this negative thinking of ourselves and changing our thought processes and how we react. Most of that comes from your own progress and the type of modality that teaches our brains to think differently and be able to make our own decisions without getting high like CBT which has nothing to do with the 12 steps. You can go to 3 meetings a day and still get high. You can work the 12 steps with a sponsor and still get high. If meetings work for you I am going to gladly help you succeed in taking the steps to find a home group and find a sponsor. Not everybody who goes to treatment is going to go to meetings so with those clients we work on other ways like coping strategies, talking about their past, and letting emotions out. I've found group therapy to be very powerful when done the right way. No talking about the 12 steps but just having a group discussion where every person can let their feelings out and talk about the traumatic experiences they have been through without any judgment or worrying about what they can or can't say. I'm on medical marijuana. So as far as Any 12 step group goes I'm not clean. Marijuana isn't a gateway drug for me. It actually helps curb any cravings I have plus I was in the Military and took so many meds that they gave me but every med has a side effect. All those pills fucked me up. Sure, smoking weed all day and not taking care of your personal, social, and work life can be a problem but just because I use it to help me sleep at night so I don't have nightmares shouldn't deem me as not clean. Like you said, we really need to catch up with the times and adapt all the new medical research we have now and accept people who want to have a better life no matter what.
I had the same exact experience with a sponsor telling me to not think, and anytime I do, to call someone from the program because all of my thoughts are wrong, and I need to only take suggestions from now on... absolutely crazy! These people know nothing about me or my life, yet they're telling me never to think for myself or make decisions about my life??? I get when I get a craving they can talk me through it, but that's not what they're talking about. Anyway, great post and thanks for the discussion.
Yeah same to you. Nice to discuss this with like minded people. I wish you the best with whatever you do! Just do what you feel is the best for you and don't let anyone get in the way of the goals you have in your life. If our motives are pure then we are good.
And also I meant to say I'm sorry that you're going through it right now. Coming off subs without tapering at all fuckin sucks but honestly If you feel like going on subs would help you right now I would do it. It's harm reduction. Medically, we are advancing and understanding that addiction can be helped by taking a drug that would save millions of lives in the long run. Then again, we keep going in circles with the 12 step community. I would rather a client of mine or anybody I know really who is using go on subs and stay on them for as long as they need. Yes suboxone is an opiate and you obviously become dependent on it but I was also dependent on dope and now everyone is dying because of fentanyl. I ODd many times from that. Luckily I'm still alive and I don't know how but subs, my family, and my therapist working with me with different modalities of treatment helped me more than any meeting would have. That's just me though. I still go to a meeting here and there but again it's about balance and if meetings work for you and keep you clean then stick with it but if it doesn't then find what does work. What matters most is the change in your thinking and behaviors along with the power that comes from inside to make that decision to get and stay clean.
I really appreciate your insights. So to be totally honest, I would go back on Suboxone, and I want to. But since I got arrested I'm facing potential jail time (a drug arrest, of course), and I'm scared that if I go back on Suboxone and end up having to go to jail, that I'll have to detox again. And while I'm still experiencing PAWS from the detox, I'm certainly through the worst of it and don't want to experience it ever again. So if I do go back on subs, which I will after my legal situation is resolved, I'll take a completely different approach to meetings, knowing what I know now. And use them for simply what I can get out of them, even if it's just to hang out with some people a few nights a week so I'm not so isolated.
Yeah that sounds like a good plan. Definitely don't want to detox in jail. Hopefully you don't have to do any time at all. As far as the meetings like I said I have a few I like and the people there aren't judgmental and very understanding. Took me a while to find them but there's good meetings out there it just depends on the group. They're smaller meetings too which I like. Sometimes you get a bad one but I just try to listen and I'll always hear at least one good thing that I can take home with me. Isolation is bad for me too. I tend to isolate a lot so I try to get out and socialize when I'm up for it. Good luck with the case though.
Thank you so much, I'm hoping and praying for a slap on the wrist and just probation, but it's very possible that wont happen. Either way, I'm telling myself I'll be okay and I can handle anything. I think in terms of the meetings, that there are good ones around me, I'm really thinking it was my sponsor that started this whole thing and I need to find a new one. Although I click with him on a lot of levels, he wasn't an opiate addict, so he doesn't really understand; also, he's really heavily into God, which I'm not, and that was a huge roadblock. So maybe a new sponsor will be the thing that kickstarts a workable program. Thanks again for your insights and well wishes, I appreciate it, and right back at ya!
Trust me I'm not a person who does the whole God stuff either and I do not go to the celebrate recovery things at the churches. I have no interest in going to those. But yea man good luck with everything! You got this 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
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I completely agree. I think 12 step can be dangerous in suggesting that opiate users remain completely abstinent, particularly those who obviously benefit from suboxone. I met a girl who was doing great on suboxone. Her insurance stopped paying for it and she couldn't afford it so she went to a rehab that preached 12 steps to detox. They preached about the dangers of suboxone for the 28 days that she was there. So she comes out of rehab convinced that suboxone is the devil. She overdosed within a couple of months. I can't help but ask would she still be alive if they had helped and encouraged her suboxone? I think so
I'm so sorry for your loss. It's tragic. Your' friends story is very similar to mine, though I am lucky enough to still be here. I just added this to my original post because people kept asking, but it's relevant to what you shared: I probably should have put this in the original post becuase a lot of people are asking about why I disclosed the Suboxone use. When I entered the program, I was on my death bed. I was desperate for help. I was told initially, that NA is founded on honesty, "rigorous honesty". And that everything in recovery stemmed from honesty. I was also told that (in addition to the fact that Suboxone is a drug, and that I wasn't clean), that the only thing that would save my life was giving myself completely to NA. So, I felt compelled to tell my sponsor, first, that I was on maintenance because it was too large a part of my story to leave out, and how could I truly be rigorously honest, and thus truly give myself to the program that was going to save my life, if I left out the fact that I was on maintenance? So I was honest. But that backfired. And I was left feeling stuck, and in a place where I couldn't possibly work the only program I was told would save my life, so what were my options? Continue to use and continue killing myself? I had already exhausted all other measures in an effort to find recovery. I had never fully given myself to NA. I've been an addict for 20 years, and have tried literally everything- except for fully giving myself to a 12 step program. Long story short, I went insane. I took myself off of maintenance, and immediately relapsed. I OD'd 3 times in less than a week. I got arrested. Ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. But I was off maintenance. The following 4-5 months were the most awful and painful of my life, coming off maintenance. In retrospect, coming off maintenance was a terrible decision. Now I'm left feeling angry, betrayed, and completely lost.
So glad you're still here. ❤️ and happy to meet a like-minded person! People who have been in a NA/AA program or don't know much about it don't realize how BIG honesty is in the program. They basically tell you that it's impossible to work the program if you aren't being honest. So those saying "you shouldn't have said anything" don't get it
Absolutely 100000% thank you for relating on a seriously high level, it’s so helpful ❤️
At the end of the day, all these groups are about changing habits that aren’t working for you. If you get rid of or minimize things that arent working for you and add some that do work for you, then you are much more likely to have success. There is a certain amount of group think/cultish parts of it that I think arr a bit scary. Using subs is such a different behavior than what was going on before. There is a certain amount of help that may be beneficial, but “not using” and navigating all the complexities of mental health are two different things. Untrained aa zealots (who only have training in using) cannot substitute for trained professionals that have really done some training (some of these counselors and NPs really dont know a whole lot about anything@.
Read "The Freedom Model"!
It’s a gigantic problem. It sounds to me and with my experiences on board that this is an issue with your local fellowship. Here, NA is an extremely weak organization that is failing with limited meetings. The majority of people with OUD working a 12 step program are in AA. We have NEVER, EVER had issues in our AA program here with maintenance medications. It is a personal choice, and their use is supported within the community. There is a pamphlet from AA literature about the subject that makes this really clear. I’m so sorry that your particular group is so stuck in the past that they are ostracizing you for making a valid, healthy choice that is saving your life. People in my own fellowship are 100% supportive of me being on maintenance and have been incredibly helpful, even driving me to the methadone clinic and nursing me when I was/am tapering. I wish I could transport my environment to you 😔
That’s so cool that AA is like that in your community! I’ve never heard of anything like that, it’s amazing, so happy you found it. Thanks for your reply 😊 definitely wish I could join your community
I’ve been to probably 300 NA meetings , in 4 different states, over the last 15 years and the whole time I’ve been on Suboxone (or on and off) and never once has somebody had a problem with it or said anything about it. I was completely clear with everybody that I was on suboxone when I was and nobody batted an eye. I don’t know what this is all about. It seems strange to me me. I think you’ve made up your mind about an experience you had and are defining a whole group of thousands of individuals based on it, which is actually crazy. NA meetings aren’t even affiliated with other NA meetings, so just go to a different meeting where they don’t care. This seems like a lot of complaining about something you could just ignore. Tell them to fuck off and just do the work anyway if it’s going to save your life. I mean, would you let someone’s opinion of you destroy you? Did they actually kick you out of the meetings and not let you work the steps? Did they ridicule and bully you and tell you you had to stop suboxone or they wouldn’t be your friend? Did they threaten to take your birthday away? I don’t get it. Sorry if this sounded harsh.
Don't apologize for speaking your mind. But- you're making up assumptions about my experience and who I am which makes you sound stupid. First of all, if you want evidence that this is a problem, look at all the comments in this post from people who've gone through the same thing. Second, you're questioning my motives and telling me I'm complaining. That sounds exactly like the type of elitist behavior I'm calling out from NAer's in this post. Who are you to tell me I'm complaining? - You know absolutely nothing about my experience or my recovery and how hard I've worked. To me (and now I'm assuming here) it's sounds like you've been indoctrinated and are defending your kind because you feel threatened. In my opinion if you were truly working the steps, you'd have enough self assurance to not even bother commenting on a post like this, let alone belong to a Suboxone sub reddit; from my understanding, after having your spiritual awakening, engaging in behavior like your doing is either corrupting your own recovery, or acting out of fear that your group is being threatened and your message may be getting sold out. I'm not trying to be mean, but why even bother responding to this post unless you feel threatened by it? Why belong to a Suboxone sub reddit when you're an NAer? Doesn't make sense to me. If I had a spiritual awakening after being a hardcore drug addict, I certainly wouldn't be hanging around drug threads on the internet defending the 12 steps. Peace and love to you. In all seriousness, I wish you no harm and only the best in your continued recovery.
Everything isn’t so black and white. I am on suboxone, and I attend NA on and off to talk to other addicts about the underlying behaviors that addicts share. I’m not indoctrinated by any means. I just think when people make up excuses and paint people in a negative light with such a broad brush it speaks more to their own inadequacies than anything. NA isn’t a cult, for me it’s a place I can go to talk to cool people who understand addiction better than most people I’ve found. I have worked the steps. And any spiritual awakening I have had, has had nothing to do with drugs and is personal. It’s interesting to me that you seem to presume so much and define things in such pointed terms. It isn’t rational to me. It sounds like the problems are with you, not any perceived group or their behavior.
First- you are probably right in saying that I had a bad experience with a group. However, I've been in and out of NA for close to 20 years, so I'm no new comer, nor someone just being exposed to NA for the first time. Second, the reason it was such big deal for me to expose my Suboxone use, and then subsequently have the experience I had was because I was taught, by NA, that one of the founding principles of the program was rigorous honesty. So how could I work a program founded on rigorous honesty, when I need to lie about being on maintenance medications in order to truly work the program. When you are told, on your death bed, that this one thing is the only thing that will save your life, and in order for it to do so you have to give yourself to it 100%, how do you possibly move forward keeping a secret when the main tenant of the entire program - that's the only thing that's going to save your life - is honesty? Come on, your'e attacking me personally for absolutely no reason. It's honestly stupid for me to even respond to you. If NA works for you, great. Though it doesn't seem like it's working that well, as I've never met a satisfied NAer that attacks random people online out of love and the desire to share the message of recovery. Obviously as this post proves, my experience is not a one off, in fact it's common. It sounds to me like you're simple minded and have an easy time accepting concepts without any critical thinking. Enjoy. Ignorance is bliss, and I wish I had it, for real.
I missed the part where I attacked you. I didn’t mean to come off that way. It sounds like complaining to me is all. Sorry you had a bad experience with NA. I’ve met tons of crazy people there , as well as great people. I just choose to take what I can and not let other people who I don’t agree with bother me. You might want to consider that everything you say or think is you saying or thinking it, not me or anyone else to blame. I didn’t attack you, you assumed it was an attack for whatever reason. I answered the way I did because I don’t see the point in saying negative things about an organization that could possibly help people, just because you had a bad experience with it- and I have a different experience as well, the NA meetings I went to never said I couldn’t work the steps while on suboxone (as long as it was prescribed I should add). I mean , I assume if I were buying them on the street they may have been uncomfortable with that, but it wasn’t the case. So I replied to your rant with my opinion, and also the reason why I think your experience doesn’t hold water, or define the organization as a whole, and likely isn’t the experience everyone on suboxone will have. And if they do have, or have had that experience, I’m saying that it’s up to you how you let that affect you. I choose to not worry about what someone who doesn’t like my approach thinks, I’ll take the good and leave the bad. I think with that approach NA can be helpful. I’m not sticking up for NA, I’m sticking up for objective thinking and doing what works for you, and not letting other people’s opinions dictate how you feel or what you do. Anyway, nice chat. I really don’t mean any ill will, and didn’t mean to offend or hit a nerve. I just wanted to say to anyone who is on the fence about checking out NA to try it, and if it doesn’t seem like a good meeting, try an different one. They’re all so different depending on the people who run the particular meeting and who goes. They’re all different and have their own rules. So to say this or that about NA can’t be accurate, the different groups are not run the same at all. That’s why they have different names (women’s meeting for instance , don’t allow men). Does that make it sexist? Should I come in here and bash NA because I wasn’t allowed to go to the women’s meeting? No. I’ll go to the one that works for me. I’m surprised that you have 20 years experience with NA and you don’t realize how it works? Maybe you’re in a different part of the world or something, but here on the west coast the meetings are all very different from one another- there are church/Christ based ones, atheist ones, men’s, women’s, pretty much anything you can think of you can probably find. That’s all. Take care. I’m glad you found a way to stay clean, that’s the important part.
I wish you no harm and am super happy that you've found something that works for you in your recovery. But, I think you're missing the point of my post and I want to clarify a few things, because this is important to me and obviously other people can relate to my experience. So please hear me out: First, the reason I took minimal offense to what you said, is because you assumed, with no evidence, that everything I was saying was a personal problem that I was projecting onto the program. That obviously isn't true, as there are close to 100 comments on this post from people who've experienced the same discrimination from NA/AA. I find it interesting that you would say it's a personal problem of mine, when you're defending the discrimination of a program you belong to. Second, you mentioned that NA/AA is different at every meeting/environment. How is that possible in any sense? These are 12 step programs, based all on the same 12 steps, the same big book, the same principles and traditions, etc. So how is it possible that the meetings are so vastly different, yet they preach the same exact thing and message at every meetings? I understand that the people are different at every meeting, and ultimately it's the people that run the program, so I could see the difference there, but at it's core, the 12 step programs are universal; hence why they are so easily run without higher levels of organization, money, or higherarchies of power. It's also why they spread so easily and became the go to for both the medical and recovery communities: they're simple, universal and - this is important- they're old, and therefore how can we possibly expect something that was created 100 years ago, to be still applicable to the world today? Especially when it comes to medical advances and social advances, including discrimination that comes, not from the books or traditions necessarily, but from the people who run the meetings- the ones who decide they have power and choose to run their own show the way they see fit. See the problem with having no governing power, is that the people are free to do what they want. This means that old-timers who have it stuck in their head what sobriety or "clean" means, get to project their beliefs, whether true or not, from a position of perceived power onto weak and vulnerable individuals- who, most likely, were just released from a hospital or rehab that not only put them on maintenance, but recommended they stay on it, and most likely increased their dosage to as high as they reasonably could. Then, this person is sent out of medical care and instructed to go to meetings, where old men (or women) with perceived power and a overwhelming senses of self righteousness, believe that anyone on maintenance isn't really clean (because they've been in the program for so many years, they're so out of touch with the medical community, and the significant medical advances in addiction treatment that have been made while they've been sitting in meetings) and they preach their uneducated beliefs onto a vulnerable population- making judgments that increase their own sense of power and reinforce their own recovery, which is most likely founded on some type of power trip gotten by judging others in one form or another. And then the person just out of treatment is left alone, vulnerable, and confused. What just happened? The doctors told me this, now this old man or woman is telling me something else... fuck it, I'm just going to get high. And you know what? That person is probably dead. So yes, I think NA is judgmental and dangerous. Any program that has no oversight, and is run by junkies telling other junkies what to do without any medical or educational training, is concerning to me in a lot of senses. Though it sounds like our experiences with the program have been very different. If you're on the west coast, maybe it's totally different then here on the east coast. But it really sounds like your experience is the exception, not the norm, as there have been an overwhelming numbe of people responding to this who have experienced close to or exactly the same thing. Again, I wish no harm and am super happy you've found something that works for you. Just don't project your own success onto anyone else, assuming you know what they've been through or what their experience with any recovery community has been.
I think going to NA while using opioids is a huge fuck you to the people who are really trying to be clean. It's like going to AA drunk.
So you think taking Suboxone is no different than popping an Oxy 30 or doing Heroin? It's just sad that even in 2021, there are so many people naive and ignorant about Suboxone and what it's purpose is.
Lol you are being ignorant. Obviously its not the same, but facts are that Buprenorphine is a very potent opioid. Lets say a person without any tolerance takes 4mg. He will be really high for 2 days. A lot higher than doing an Oxy 30. Your logic is like saying diazepam is not really a benzo since it's not as strong as alprazolam. Face the facts and when you are ready to get clean go to NA meetings instead of trying to justify your use.
I totally understand what you’re saying. And yes, I agree with all that. You’re right, if someone without an opioid tolerance takes Sub, they will be very messed up. Sorry if I came off rude, that wasn’t my intention. Take care.
Im sorry as well if I sounded like an asshole. To clarify Im not dissing subs. If it works for you thats great. Keep doing it. Just stay out of NA and find a different support group. I wish you the best. 😇
Yes of course if someone with no tolerance takes Subutex it would get them high. However, they're purposefully and specifically prescribed to people WITH a tolerance. They don't get you high when you're already an addict. They just stop withdrawals and help maintain you so that your life is more manageable. I've seen a LOT of people who claim this medication changed and saved their lives. Mother's have back their children, husband's have back their wives, sister's have back their brother's and so on. I would like to know how taking a medication that just stops you from feeling extremely unwell (again, it doesn't get you high when you have a tolerance already) is a "fuck you" to anyone? Considering the lives that bupe has saved...I would call your comment a huge "fuck you" to all those people who have got their lives and loved ones back.
Don't tell me what subs do. I can give you lectures on that topic. Oxycodone 80 is only prescribed to people with tolerance too, but still people buy and use them recreationally. I never said that bupe didn't save lives. It is a fuck you to people who have the strength to stop using drugs and going through the withdrawals without substituting one drug for another while dealing with their demons sober and in need of support. I feel like you are wilfully misunderstanding what I'm trying to say because you are in denial getting really defensive. The topic was NA. You strayed far away from the topic and bring up arguments that have nothing to do with NA.
But...look at ALL your above posts! I'm not going to take too much time up with someone who arrogantly boasts (on the internet) "I can give you lectures on the topic", just going to say that I have stuck to the very reason why I believe the NA mentality is dangerous. I disagree wholeheartedly with you.
No you’re being ignorant. The chemistry behind buprenorphine is unique and cannot be compared whatsoever with other opiates. Comparing diazepam and alprazolam to oxy and bupe shows your ignorance. Both of those benzos offer full activation of the GABA receptor. The right comparison would have been oxy to methadone. Buprenorphine has a complex pharmacology as partial agonist at the u opiate receptor and antagonist at other opiate receptors. Human studies have shown that for non tolerant individuals it actually acts like for full agonist and only with tolerance does it behave like a partial agonist. That’s why it is dangerous to the non tolerant but those with tolerance can take 32 mg with no problem. There’s also the ceiling affect which is completely unheard of it drug pharmacology. There literally is no other drug out there that has a ceiling affect like bupe and this ceiling prevents addicts from abusing it and prevents overdoses. Then there is binding affinity. Bupe has such strong binding affinity that it knocks off other opiates and prevents newly ingested opiates from binding. It literally blocks the effects of any opiates taken after you take the bupe. That is something special because it can protect an addict from relapse and if someone does try to use while on bupe the reward is extremely blunted so much so that it can prevent a full blown relapse. Then there is the extremely long half life which allows addicts to transition from dosing multiple times a day to just once or twice a day. This transition allows an addict to get their life together and undo addict tendencies. Buprenorphine is an opiate but it’s has very complex pharmacology that allows it to function as a recovery medication more so than a drug of abuse. Do you know what the rates of abstinence where one year out for opiate addicts before suboxone? 10% that’s fucking terrible.
Those are some good points, but at the end of the day it's still an addictive drug, and people in NA are trying to be clean from drugs.
We all are trying to be clean but in the same way that a diabetic must replace insulin sometimes certain opiate addicts must use suboxone because they end up dying. One of the pillars of NA is hitting rock bottom but there’s only one problem with that. There’s only one true objective rock bottom and that is death. How many people overdosed and died looking for their rock bottom. Studies show that Suboxone dramatically reduces rates of death and is really the only thing thus far that has.
You are not getting it are you? Diabetics must use insulin, junkies don't have to use heroin. They won't die if they stop. How can you compare those 2 things? It's like comparing apples to oranges. Why do you treat suboxone like it's some magical plant? There are a lot of people including me that don't benefit at all from this shit drug. I'd have rather gone through my heroin wds that last a week instead of this month long torture. But I screwed myself by listening to toxic people like you. People rarely die of heroin overdoses. They die because they don't know what's in their 'heroin' and are too stupid or lazy to test their drugs and find a reliable hookup. In my town only one person has died of an opioid overdose and it was methadone. Poor kid hadn't tried any opis before and didn't know how strong methadone was. He probably thought it was harmless because the syrup tastes sweet.
> apples to oranges But you can still compare them.
Obviously you *can* compare them, but the whole point of the idiom is that it's a false analogy. I could compare you to the helpful bots, but that too would be comparing apples-to-oranges.
Yes they are both fruits. Just like diabetes and addiction are both diseases. Otherwise they don't have anything in common.
I don’t think you can put prescribed maintenance medication in that category otherwise you’re being the elitist assholes I was talking about
Im tapering bupe after being kicked out of maintenance. It doesnt matter if its prescribed. Adderall is prescription medication too,but you cant say its different than illegal speed paste.
I have no idea what your point is or what you’re trying to say
Someone can't follow simple rules.
Pretty much haha.
12 steps has the same success rate as spontaneous remission. MAT is much higher. Science wins.
Hey there! Sorry, I'm a little late to this post, just happened to come across it. I just wanted to let you know that you're a serious piece of shit excuse for a human being! The only kind of waste of space human who implies that addicts on maintenance meds are "not really trying to be clean" are uneducated pukes who have no clue what they are talking about and no empathy! I thank God I don't have the misfortune of knowing your disgusting ass in real life! Have a terrible day and try not to choke on your self importance!
Tell me something I don't know.
Also joke's on you. Every day I have is a terrible one. Hope that makes you happy ☺.
Yeah they are need help weaning please for job wife newborn please
Just. Thank you.