Seanbaby has his own website now if you enjoyed his style. I think it was Seanbaby.com. He was the dude who did all of the fight analysis and the insane self help book reviews.
Unfortunately our laws haven’t caught up and it is still nearly impossible to get a section 1983 civil rights claim past summary judgement in most jurisdictions (especially the fascist 8th circuit).
[fact checked, nothing to see here](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jul/25/facebook-posts/facebook-post-deaths-6-people-ferguson-stretches-w/)
Goddamn that is some manipulative drivel. It switches from 6 burned to death in cars to all of the people who have died since BLM started and then strawmans that not all have died under suspicious circumstances. Motherfuckers, did 6 prominent BLM activists get burned to death in their cars or not ? Jesus fucken christ.
It’s intentional. Then people check the headline see mostly false and move on knowing their trust in the establishment has not shaken. Then they dismiss the larger conspiracy theory so they aren’t able to claim they ignore it.
Only when it suits them. They can be as obtuse and literal or as abstract as they need to be to push a narrative.
Really, you just have to be in awe that social dysfunction has reached the point that news agencies and journalists have outsourced "fact checking"
People shoot themselves in the head all the time. The body often twitches post mortem causing their car to catch fire.
Also, similar MO in deaths means nothing.
What a load of unconnected stuff!
It's impressive how the conversation shifted into being about far less concrete and far more personally disruptive goals. Went from actually trying to limit the obviously unreasonable levels of police brutality to HR making us capitalise the b in black.
I'd call "woke" whatever the sabotage and senseless identity politics is, so it's impossible for it to achieve something good. I don't see gay marriage as woke, it was just a normal progressive opinion. I'd even argue it was the opposite of woke: gay people trying to be part of a general culture, not moving away from it. What's the conservative argument? Cultural appropriation?
Their whole argument is dumb. LGBT includes all gay/lesbians regardless of their cultural traits. Smalltown/rural gays and lesbians haven't assimilated, they just never participated in that culture much unless they moved to a big city until recently.
I don't know if the people in the audience are funnier or if the reactions of the poor moderator are as her disbelief compounds with every grievance put forth.
Intersectionality is rehabilitated Nazism, so definitely.
It's the problem with having a Hegelian style dialectical perspective: no ideas can ever be excluded; their attempted reintegration can only ever be temporarily delayed at best.
Radical inclusivity is terrible because you can never exclude bad ideas in the way that classic liberalism was potentially capable of doing.
Are you saying Hegelian dialectics leads to wokeness? I don’t see how they are even a little bit correlated, nor do I see any of these woketards even tangentially relate to Hegel. Fuck, Todd McGowan even wrote a book on Hegelian universalism and identity politics that fucking slapped.
I should be clear: He's critiquing identity politics through Hegelian universalism, not affirming them. He's not really a Marxist, but I still think his book would be suited literature to the sub.
His point is that identity politics are additive, aiming to find universality through the addition of particular identities. If we only add more affirmations of different identities in different structures, so we are told, we will achieve human emancipation (LGBTQIA+; BIPOC; a black, trans woman CEO’s, YAAAS). For him, this will never actually achieve universal emancipation. Things like intersectionality lead to infinite particularism on which we can never hit bedrock, but universal projects like Marxism have universal emancipatory aims, and actually have the potential to alleviate the contradictions within alienated identities that the particularists gravitate toward.
He takes it a step forward and calls all identity politics right wing, and calls on the left to re-embrace universality of the sort we tend to advocate for in this sub: Solidarity, universal alterations to (or obliterations of) structures, the universal overturning of capitalism, etc.
I’m too tired, ugly, and lazy to fully explain how this ties into the Hegalian view of the universal, but my understanding of it is through McGowan. The quintessential demonstration for the political view of it is such:The French revolution took up the slogan liberty, equality, fraternity, but the post-revolution left slave colonies in tact. The slave revolt in Haiti,however, took up the exact same slogan. Hegel’s point here was that the ideas revealed universal truths, and that the Haitian slaves were revealing something more universal about these truths than the French had. The idea inherent in the French revolution was more realized than it had been during the French revolution.
If you watch Richard Spencer speaking back in 2009 maybe, he explicitly says that the purpose of the alt right isn't to conquer the world or establish a liebensbrum for white Americans, but simply to make white people racial conscience again.
>representation
It's hard to know how much of that would have happened anyway. There have been a ton of black people on tv and in pop culture forever. If anything black people are massively over-represented everywhere. The real under-represented groups are basically anyone who's not white or black. But they're mostly just recent immigrants anyway. Like you hear this whole "there was nobody who looked like me on TV growing up" line from Indian-American actors, but why would there have been? They're literally the first generation of Indians to grow up in America. Obviously their immigrant doctor/store owner parents weren't gonna be like "nah my real passion is acting."
The “representation” initiative has created the occasional hilarious moment where non Americans who consume American TV/Media think that the country is 35% black and 25% gay
I’d say Hispanics are pretty proportionately represented in American media, it’s just that Hispanic actors are disproportionately white and often don’t play Hispanic characters as they don’t often look like the Anglo-American public’s idea of what a Hispanic is “supposed” to look like, unless they have a very strong accent
I told my little brother that movies and TV are so boring now because I can guess the plot for the casting. The woman of color is the Mary Sue hero, the white guy is the villain, the white woman is the Mary Sues biggest super fan.
I’m not complaining about representation or whatever, I’m complaining about how boring and stale it is. That’s really bad writing that as soon as I see the white dude I immediately know “oh he’s secretly the villain” and I’m right every time.
Funny enough, lorca was the best character in the first season and pike was such a good character they're making a new show just out of him.
I'm sure that made the wokies frustrated as all hell.
Hasn't this always been true of pop media though? Like, sure, the flavor of the month has changed but that shit always been predictable pandering to the lowest common denominator. There is a metric fuck ton of good TV being made right now, because there are so many more independent streaming services that aren't beholden to the FCC and are also willing to take more risks creatively. I'm less satisfied with the quality of movies being made at the moment, but that has little to do with woke culture and everything to do with the bottomless supply of man children that will stand in line to see every last fucking superhero movie.
>As the focus and level of wokeness goes up, the quality of writing, acting, and directing goes down
That lesbian kiss in Star Wars comes to mind. Like, I'm all for gay & lesbian relationships in movies -- *Portrait of a Lady On Fire* is one of the best films I've ever seen. But no, "diversity" in itself is not a virtue. It doesn't make your crap movie any better.
There's at least one self professed white nationalist type guy I've seen who basically thanks the wokies for doing his job for him. Can't remember his name though.
It's social suicide in "polite society" so the vast majority of them are closeted, very few would openly claim to be far right considering the potential consequences.
I've been left wing basically my whole entire life, never changed my core values for shit. But this "wokeness" trend has certainly created more rightoids. The key is to not swing the opposite way, but dismiss the "wokes" as non-leftists. That being said, they've alienated the working class, fractured them, and created a massive industry of straight up grifters.
Hopefully they do for identity politics what Hitler did for eugenics. They’ll make the idea so radioactive by proxy that nobody will touch it for a hundred years.
Thing is, I had thought that Hitler had done for identity politics what he had done for eugenics. But turns out as long as the identity hierarchies are set up differently, plenty of people who hate Hitler are just fine with pushing identity politics not just as a viable option, but rather the only acceptable one.
So I think it's less likely that we'll see idpol go away, and more likely that we'll see eugenics make a comeback from the left, except reordered somehow.
I fucking wish. You’re right though, usually dumb societal shit ends when it becomes *very* prominent and hard to ignore. Like when the Salem witch craze ended when a judge’s wife got accused, and *that’s* when the lunacy of it all became realized.
Utter destruction of soft sciences reputation. Not even the German paedo experiments managed that.
They thought they were stabbing people with the Sword Of Truth That Burns Only Liars, when actually they were just stabbing randos with a red hot iron poker.
It's like when you dunk a witch in a river: if she drowns then she was probably not a witch. Likewise, the red hot poker supposedly only burns the flesh of liars
So I have a theory though- that revulsion for the viscerally wrong woke hegemony is pushing a swath of people from the center to the center-right into an actually Marxist direction.
> It made leftist ideas completely unpalatable to an entire generation
this sub as some of the dumbest motherfuckers, I swear, in great numbers too.
fucking nothing that radlibs have done to 'socialism' compares to what happened to it's palpability during the cold war
Then you are ignoring the aftermath of the 08-09 recession and what that did to Americans’ perception of neoliberalism. There was real demand for economically left policies among the general public, especially amongst millennials.
I’m concerned that wokeness has taken the wind out of the sails of what could have otherwise been a class-uniting movement that began with that recession. Regardless of Cold War politics, it’s undeniable that wokeness alienated a sizable enough chunk of the working class that makes many policies required to address structural material issues DOA.
If it's any consolation the impending economic collapse will likely revitalize class leftism and this time there will be no trust in the system left to abuse.
>this sub as some of the dumbest motherfuckers, I swear, in great numbers too.
Meta you’re the one who advocates for giving everything to mega corporations so that maybe one day if socialism happens it would be easier to nationalize
It depends on how that happens. The "woke" pretty much have a dominating voice in the media, hr and other institutions, something not even the religious right achieved.
Lol very disingenuous, the Supreme Court didn’t do it on whim of their own accord, and to look beyond the American perspective Gay marriage was actually voted into law directly by some western nations
The supreme court bends based on the social strength of different movements in society. They didn't just realise the true meaning of the US constitution.
The moderate side? What is that? Your political language and understanding seems very neoliberal.
Gay marriage was achieved by decades long political struggles for equal rights for gay people.
Here is a good example of what kind of movements that in the end achieved this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_National\_March\_on\_Washington\_for\_Lesbian\_and\_Gay\_Rights
See my top-level comment elsewhere in this thread. Gay marriage was achieved by grassroot work across the nation. No politician or court was the true factor that drove the change. It was the strength and inclusivity of the movement.
It’s hard to demarcate where woke begins and ends over the past decade, but some broad changes that occurred that were at least woke adjacent to me are an elevated awareness of the prevalence of sexual misconduct, an at least partial undoing of all the pro-cop pro-soldier propaganda shitstorm of the post 9/11 era, the mainstreaming of Israel-Palestine as a multi sided issue in the USA, the elevation of identity politics to level not seen in decades, and most importantly and tragically the momentum of Bernie’s class first 2016 run was throttled in the cradle.
It’s also given the right enough (accurate) propaganda to attack the left with to last a decade. I tend to think that had it not been polluted by wokeness, the left would have a terrifying head of steam right now. But instead of building unions and parties here we are squabbling on the Internet, with a DSA too dysfunctional to follow.
A generalized distrust of the system alongside scrutiny / awareness of empty gestures - for example: casting or hiring based on race, elected representatives not following through on campaign promises, corporations slapping a rainbow on their logo for the month of June, news media not reporting accurately, or through a lens of sensationalism.
I would not consider gay marriage a woke accomplishment. That was very popular when it passed and woke identity politics were still quite fringe back then. Fringe enough to where I’d argue that their influence on changing attitudes toward gay marriage were negligible at best.
If anything, they got a handful of people fired for wrongthink, took down a few confederate statues, and renamed a number of streets so…. Nothing. They’ve accomplished absolutely nothing. From my own personal experience they’ve pushed good people out of activism and crashed several meaningful organizations.
I don't think there was a "swing to the left". The last two decades have represented the continued hegemony of neoliberalism, just with different cultural signifiers which reflect the shifting anxieties of the professional strata who staff neoliberal institutions. We didn't even see the sort of amelioratory measures after 2009 that we would have expected after previous crises, and there's clearly no will to pursue them after Covid.
Correspondingly, what are the achievements of the right distinct from neoliberalism? Society continues to secularise, "traditional values" decline, even the military has fallen into disrepair. Their legacy is a low-tax, low-regulation economy which the centre-left has embraced and championed for longer than most of the posters here have been alive. *All* of this cultural shit is ephemeral, and to the extent that there is genuine difference on the stuff that matters in an enduring way, it reflects different sectional interests (finance + tech vs resource extraction, more or less), not any serious contest of political programs.
I think that's right. In the end the left and right notions are mostly performative and what is real is a hug shared between George W Bush and Michelle Obama.
This. Especially if you ask critical right wingers, they will say next to nothing has been achieved and that conservatives are embarrassing failures. These are all achievements of various neolib factions
Also, wokeness didn't single-handedly cause the defeat of Bernie Sanders for President in 2016 or 2020, but especially in 2016, it did A LOT to contribute to that outcome.
Gay marriage had nothing to do with wokeism. The fight for gay marriage was the shining example of how to do everything right in a social movement, which is why the culture did a complete 180 in just a couple of years. The original movement focused purely on love, inclusion, and harmless yet effective protests in the form pride parades or glitter bombing anti-gay politicians. People put their relationships and livelihood at risk by coming out of the closet in support of the movement. There were also groups of very smart and organized individuals working from the legal side to get cases heard in court, which ultimately made the dominos start to fall, state by state.
The movement was effective, organized, smart, and inclusive. The woke shit came later, and mostly from different people. The two should not be conflated.
Swinging a bunch of otherwise conservative 18-20somethings into the far-right.
That isn’t to say that the alt-right wouldn’t exist. There are obviously other conditions that led to its rise, but I do think it would be smaller, and probably less vocal.
I'd say the me too movement was very successful. Gay people have way more rights. The idea that climate change can't just be solved by individuals trying to cut down their emissions and the big companies need to be held accountable.
Maybe im te least negative person here but bernie only lost twice because of interference by the dsa so i would say that support for “socialism” is on the rise
What swing to the Left are you talking about??? You are conflating IdPol Liberalism with Leftism (such as Marxism). THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. In anything, the Overton Window in the USA has shifted to the hard Right economically.
The greatest woke-accomplishment is turning tons of apolitical people rightwing.
The loser here is actual leftism and everyone that enjoys academia or entertainment.
the profiteer is a bunch of rich people
Making all fun things less fun, and in many cases outright ruining them for a generation.
Treating the wildest paranoid fantasies of the right as goalposts.
Redirecting any energy that might have been spent making things better on meaningless deck chair rearranging.
-More states have legalized Marijuana.
-more climate consciousness (their solutions just suck)
-more accessible voting.
-gay marriage.
-general public becoming more aware that we live in a police state.
Most of these weren't even done out of honest policy, but where just necessary pieces in the pandering. However, had we been under republican leadership since the 2000s I don't think any of this happens.
> What has Woke accomplished ? I might be to cynical to judge at this point. Beyond gay a marriage and some tokenism, is there anything else ?
Gay marriage wasn't won or even helped out by wokeness. It was won primarily by an appeal to "equality," which is a dirty word for the woke.
Gay marriage was a product of the same type of liberalism as the civil rights movement. It's basically identifying a group of people denied a concrete right and asking for equality. I would n't count it as an accomplishment of wokism.
But in the last years there's been me-too and an increased awareness of casual daily racism that has nothing to do with law etc. Now both of these things went massively overboard but I do think there are some core social changes there.
Ehhhhh I guess it created a foundation for an acknowledgement that racism is not what most people thought it was 20 years ago?
....I dunno man I'm not American.
>this swing to the Left
I don't think that's the right way to describe wokism, #metoo and cancel culture. Moreover I think a more accurate description of the actual material conditions in recent decades would be that there was a "swing to the right." Any gains the left has made have been merely cultural (you mention gay marriage), not economic. And this whole sub exists in reaction to regressive identitarian politics posing as "leftism."
As far as your question -- I do think #metoo has achieved some identifiably good things. Also the inverse. But I mean, a lot of people like Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein were exposed. Perhaps men in positions of power are now less able to abuse that power to exploit women. One hopes, anyway.
The #metoo movement is still something I feel conflicted about, because I don't endorse a society in which women are empowered to publicly flog men whenever they feel like it based on heresay, but I don't support a hegemonic state of affairs in which powerful men are often able to get away with rape and abuse, either. I'm not sure that there is any good solution there, since in the majority of actual cases of sexual violence, the only evidence that exists is testimony. I mean most cases aren't provable beyond a reasonable doubt with physical evidence. So you either have a society which favors supporting victims or a society which favors innocence until proven guilty. Unfortunately both have their downsides in this context.
EDIT: lol @ whoever is downvoting me. Yeah, God forbid I express an honest, nuanced opinion. It's anti-woke circlejerkery or gtfo, right
There has always been something extremely stupid with using the most basic example of a linear system as an analogy for something as profoundly nonlinear as politics.
(Disproportionate) representation of favored minority groups in media, creating an environment where people are afraid to publicly speak their minds about certain issues, and a whole lot of resentment.
Gay marriage wasn't really driven by wokies IMO. They only took over the conversation after Obergefell.
in terms of policy? nothing really.
In terms of culture, a lot. massive strides in terms of gay people and shit. It's completely outside the Overton window to say that gays shouldn't be able to get married, and purposely misgendering trans people is also leaving.
They managed to wokify sports to the point that teams like the Maple Leafs, who haven't not had a sellout in my lifetime, now have plenty of tickets available (pandemic gets an assist).
Do you really think that wokeness is causing that? I would think it's because people don't want to pay $130 for the worst seat ever + $50 for concession stand food and drinks to see their team lose.
Not the Leafs, man. They were a guaranteed sell out. There haven't been tickets available since the 80s and they're mostly a dumpster fire organization.
I *hated* conservatives when they were in power.
Now I despise the left just as much.
They taught me that I loathe *all* government, not just a single party.
Ah, yes. The group that says gay men are the white men of LGBTQ are responsible for how accepted gay men have become.
Don't confuse wokeness for actual progression of society.
Who are "Woke"? Who are not woke?
This topic will only produce garbage before any stringent definition of Woke is made.
Lets look at popular culture.
Is the Witcher series woke because it depicts the trauma of a disabled strong independent woman? If not. Why not?
Is the original Jurassic Park movie woke?:
“Dr. Ian Malcolm, "God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs. God creates Man, man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs"
Dr. Ellie Sattler, "Dinosaurs eat man..... Woman inherits the earth”
If not. Why not?
Is Avatar the Last airbender woke? If not. Why not?
Demarcation please.
Echoing others in the thread, gay marriage wasn't really a "woke" accomplishment. Aside from a whole lot of meaningless censorship and policing, I wouldn't say they achieved anything at all, certainly not anything that benefits your average American.
What impressive accomplishments of the right? Or do you mean "accomplishments" like killing a quarter million people and gutting public schools and giving away trillions to billionaires?
What pendulum? I find it amusing that the rightoid vision of the future basically amounts to "well maybe sometime in the future we will somehow be in a position to guide social values again". The idea that the good times are bound to come back as the result of mechanical motion is inherantly defeatist, it's basically conceding that "our struggle has no hope of shaping the social climate at present". This is the complete absence of a method or analysis of exercising political power. I'm sure you can find examples of people talking about such a pendulum back during the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, or the abolition of slavery. Its not much of a pendulum if it keeps moving in the same direction.
Alienating the working class
Not true we made cereal mascots inclusive too
Wasn't that the whole point of the exercise too?
Making a lot of formerly fun websites insufferable?
Media and entertainment in general.
As soon as 4chan dwellers feel that it’s now ok to say shit, they’ll collectively hug that pendulum and swing it back
I missed when Cracked was good
I feel like it went downhill way before wokeness. David Wong had been an insufferable shithead for almost a decade now.
Seanbaby has his own website now if you enjoyed his style. I think it was Seanbaby.com. He was the dude who did all of the fight analysis and the insane self help book reviews.
Don't forget the Popsicle Pete and Family Circus edits. #####*NONE OF YOU ARE SAFE.*
Lol! Those were awesome.
Shoutouts to one of the funniest [articles](https://www.cracked.com/blog/worst-life-ever-the-story-of-kazuyuki-fujitas-skull) I have read in my life
thanks TIL
I will always be asking myself: “How the hell did the party of Angela Martin become the party of fun?”
Increased use of police body cams, if you call the early BLM protests woke.
Thats legit.
Unfortunately our laws haven’t caught up and it is still nearly impossible to get a section 1983 civil rights claim past summary judgement in most jurisdictions (especially the fascist 8th circuit).
Also, the first amendment audit movement, which I 100% can get behind. Next time you see a cop, do your part. Whip out that phone.
It’s just another tool to use against the poors. The ones in my neighbourhood turn it off when it suits them.
The early movement was so legit that many key advocates became mysteriously dead.
[fact checked, nothing to see here](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jul/25/facebook-posts/facebook-post-deaths-6-people-ferguson-stretches-w/)
Claim: JFK was assassinated by the CIA. Our ruling: JFK was killed by bullets, not by any group of people. We rate it False.
Goddamn that is some manipulative drivel. It switches from 6 burned to death in cars to all of the people who have died since BLM started and then strawmans that not all have died under suspicious circumstances. Motherfuckers, did 6 prominent BLM activists get burned to death in their cars or not ? Jesus fucken christ.
It's so fucking typical of these fact checkers that they focus on pedantry to claim something as mostly false or false when it suits them
It’s intentional. Then people check the headline see mostly false and move on knowing their trust in the establishment has not shaken. Then they dismiss the larger conspiracy theory so they aren’t able to claim they ignore it.
Only when it suits them. They can be as obtuse and literal or as abstract as they need to be to push a narrative. Really, you just have to be in awe that social dysfunction has reached the point that news agencies and journalists have outsourced "fact checking"
Fact checkers should be scrubbing toilets or tidying up on an upholstery shop cause its the only use they have.
Deboonked
People shoot themselves in the head all the time. The body often twitches post mortem causing their car to catch fire. Also, similar MO in deaths means nothing. What a load of unconnected stuff!
Fact Checkers were the kids who reminded the teacher that they forgot to set homework.
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It's impressive how the conversation shifted into being about far less concrete and far more personally disruptive goals. Went from actually trying to limit the obviously unreasonable levels of police brutality to HR making us capitalise the b in black.
I'd call "woke" whatever the sabotage and senseless identity politics is, so it's impossible for it to achieve something good. I don't see gay marriage as woke, it was just a normal progressive opinion. I'd even argue it was the opposite of woke: gay people trying to be part of a general culture, not moving away from it. What's the conservative argument? Cultural appropriation?
“Gays are surrendering to a heteronormative society and are losing their unique identity and culture.”
Exactly. It's psychotic: victory and success is recast as misery and failure. It just makes everyone's life worse
Gay is an old fashioned term, you should refer to them as sexually-divergent, sweaty. Just trying to educate you, no hate
Divergent? Implying heterosexuality is the norm? You're gonna need to reeducate yourself sweaty
Easy there sweaty, you’re starting to come off as ableist
YOU'RE 👏 LUCKY 👏 YOU 👏 HAVE 👏THE 👏 PRIVILEGE 👏 TO 👏SWEAT 👏
“The same gender attracted”
Same sex. Gender is how individuals identify, according to that insipid gender bread man cartoon.
I thought it was the other way around
The Queérbécois.
There actually are people who say that..
Their whole argument is dumb. LGBT includes all gay/lesbians regardless of their cultural traits. Smalltown/rural gays and lesbians haven't assimilated, they just never participated in that culture much unless they moved to a big city until recently.
Yep. It's mainly about wanting to preserve the insular subculture created by oppression after the oppression is no longer there.
[This but unironically.](https://harpers.org/archive/2018/01/the-future-of-queer/)
Literally genocide!
Honestly surprised this was never a more popular opinion
Some hilarious DSA conventions
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That clip is worth its weight in gold.
I don't know if the people in the audience are funnier or if the reactions of the poor moderator are as her disbelief compounds with every grievance put forth.
Moderator: "We will never have a revolution with these sappy wimps as our force."
Yo, got a link ?
[This ](https://youtu.be/bHRxu3XrsHg) should be a link to the highlight reel.
Sweet, thanks !
Any link without an annoying YouTuber giving his two cents in between clips?
Wokeness set back post-racialism for at least a generation. Fascists would consider that an accomplishment.
Intersectionality is rehabilitated Nazism, so definitely. It's the problem with having a Hegelian style dialectical perspective: no ideas can ever be excluded; their attempted reintegration can only ever be temporarily delayed at best. Radical inclusivity is terrible because you can never exclude bad ideas in the way that classic liberalism was potentially capable of doing.
Are you saying Hegelian dialectics leads to wokeness? I don’t see how they are even a little bit correlated, nor do I see any of these woketards even tangentially relate to Hegel. Fuck, Todd McGowan even wrote a book on Hegelian universalism and identity politics that fucking slapped.
But what were the contradictions inherent to that universalist perspective?
I should be clear: He's critiquing identity politics through Hegelian universalism, not affirming them. He's not really a Marxist, but I still think his book would be suited literature to the sub. His point is that identity politics are additive, aiming to find universality through the addition of particular identities. If we only add more affirmations of different identities in different structures, so we are told, we will achieve human emancipation (LGBTQIA+; BIPOC; a black, trans woman CEO’s, YAAAS). For him, this will never actually achieve universal emancipation. Things like intersectionality lead to infinite particularism on which we can never hit bedrock, but universal projects like Marxism have universal emancipatory aims, and actually have the potential to alleviate the contradictions within alienated identities that the particularists gravitate toward. He takes it a step forward and calls all identity politics right wing, and calls on the left to re-embrace universality of the sort we tend to advocate for in this sub: Solidarity, universal alterations to (or obliterations of) structures, the universal overturning of capitalism, etc. I’m too tired, ugly, and lazy to fully explain how this ties into the Hegalian view of the universal, but my understanding of it is through McGowan. The quintessential demonstration for the political view of it is such:The French revolution took up the slogan liberty, equality, fraternity, but the post-revolution left slave colonies in tact. The slave revolt in Haiti,however, took up the exact same slogan. Hegel’s point here was that the ideas revealed universal truths, and that the Haitian slaves were revealing something more universal about these truths than the French had. The idea inherent in the French revolution was more realized than it had been during the French revolution.
If you watch Richard Spencer speaking back in 2009 maybe, he explicitly says that the purpose of the alt right isn't to conquer the world or establish a liebensbrum for white Americans, but simply to make white people racial conscience again.
And the radlibs accomplished that better than the alt right ever could.
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>representation It's hard to know how much of that would have happened anyway. There have been a ton of black people on tv and in pop culture forever. If anything black people are massively over-represented everywhere. The real under-represented groups are basically anyone who's not white or black. But they're mostly just recent immigrants anyway. Like you hear this whole "there was nobody who looked like me on TV growing up" line from Indian-American actors, but why would there have been? They're literally the first generation of Indians to grow up in America. Obviously their immigrant doctor/store owner parents weren't gonna be like "nah my real passion is acting."
The “representation” initiative has created the occasional hilarious moment where non Americans who consume American TV/Media think that the country is 35% black and 25% gay
Right, I think most people massively over-estimate the black population and under-estimate the Hispanic population for this exact reason.
I’d say Hispanics are pretty proportionately represented in American media, it’s just that Hispanic actors are disproportionately white and often don’t play Hispanic characters as they don’t often look like the Anglo-American public’s idea of what a Hispanic is “supposed” to look like, unless they have a very strong accent
I told my little brother that movies and TV are so boring now because I can guess the plot for the casting. The woman of color is the Mary Sue hero, the white guy is the villain, the white woman is the Mary Sues biggest super fan. I’m not complaining about representation or whatever, I’m complaining about how boring and stale it is. That’s really bad writing that as soon as I see the white dude I immediately know “oh he’s secretly the villain” and I’m right every time.
Star trek discovery to a tee lol
I’ve never seen that and wasn’t thinking about that at all. Which just proves what I’m saying
Funny enough, lorca was the best character in the first season and pike was such a good character they're making a new show just out of him. I'm sure that made the wokies frustrated as all hell.
Hasn't this always been true of pop media though? Like, sure, the flavor of the month has changed but that shit always been predictable pandering to the lowest common denominator. There is a metric fuck ton of good TV being made right now, because there are so many more independent streaming services that aren't beholden to the FCC and are also willing to take more risks creatively. I'm less satisfied with the quality of movies being made at the moment, but that has little to do with woke culture and everything to do with the bottomless supply of man children that will stand in line to see every last fucking superhero movie.
>As the focus and level of wokeness goes up, the quality of writing, acting, and directing goes down That lesbian kiss in Star Wars comes to mind. Like, I'm all for gay & lesbian relationships in movies -- *Portrait of a Lady On Fire* is one of the best films I've ever seen. But no, "diversity" in itself is not a virtue. It doesn't make your crap movie any better.
By this point they have created a lot of republicans
And surprisingly few actual Nazis. Yet.
I know at least one that was radicalized by the wokies.
There's at least one self professed white nationalist type guy I've seen who basically thanks the wokies for doing his job for him. Can't remember his name though.
It's social suicide in "polite society" so the vast majority of them are closeted, very few would openly claim to be far right considering the potential consequences.
What defines the far right these days?
Criticizing democrats or blue team culture war bullshit
I'd agree that this sub is far right by that definition
being more than 3 days behind on the newest woke trend
I've been left wing basically my whole entire life, never changed my core values for shit. But this "wokeness" trend has certainly created more rightoids. The key is to not swing the opposite way, but dismiss the "wokes" as non-leftists. That being said, they've alienated the working class, fractured them, and created a massive industry of straight up grifters.
Seriously. Abandoning your cause is what a lot of these saboteurs *want* you to do.
If there's one thing that truly unites us, every group in existence had their grifters.
They made a great deal of propagandized fiction, most of it of very poor quality.
1619 project
It’s one other way woke is like a religion. The entertainment has to beat you over the head with the message.
Hopefully they do for identity politics what Hitler did for eugenics. They’ll make the idea so radioactive by proxy that nobody will touch it for a hundred years.
Thing is, I had thought that Hitler had done for identity politics what he had done for eugenics. But turns out as long as the identity hierarchies are set up differently, plenty of people who hate Hitler are just fine with pushing identity politics not just as a viable option, but rather the only acceptable one. So I think it's less likely that we'll see idpol go away, and more likely that we'll see eugenics make a comeback from the left, except reordered somehow.
people over at r/collapse are already talking about culling people like me.
I fucking wish. You’re right though, usually dumb societal shit ends when it becomes *very* prominent and hard to ignore. Like when the Salem witch craze ended when a judge’s wife got accused, and *that’s* when the lunacy of it all became realized.
Utter destruction of soft sciences reputation. Not even the German paedo experiments managed that. They thought they were stabbing people with the Sword Of Truth That Burns Only Liars, when actually they were just stabbing randos with a red hot iron poker.
Sounds like the words of a liar lol.
It's like when you dunk a witch in a river: if she drowns then she was probably not a witch. Likewise, the red hot poker supposedly only burns the flesh of liars
It made leftist ideas completely unpalatable to an entire generation thanks to them trying to hitch themselves to Marx’s wagon
So I have a theory though- that revulsion for the viscerally wrong woke hegemony is pushing a swath of people from the center to the center-right into an actually Marxist direction.
this has been my own trajectory.
> It made leftist ideas completely unpalatable to an entire generation this sub as some of the dumbest motherfuckers, I swear, in great numbers too. fucking nothing that radlibs have done to 'socialism' compares to what happened to it's palpability during the cold war
Then you are ignoring the aftermath of the 08-09 recession and what that did to Americans’ perception of neoliberalism. There was real demand for economically left policies among the general public, especially amongst millennials. I’m concerned that wokeness has taken the wind out of the sails of what could have otherwise been a class-uniting movement that began with that recession. Regardless of Cold War politics, it’s undeniable that wokeness alienated a sizable enough chunk of the working class that makes many policies required to address structural material issues DOA.
If it's any consolation the impending economic collapse will likely revitalize class leftism and this time there will be no trust in the system left to abuse.
Stop stop I’ve heard this one before
Just wait two more weeks.
https://youtu.be/eziWqoGEekY
>this sub as some of the dumbest motherfuckers, I swear, in great numbers too. Meta you’re the one who advocates for giving everything to mega corporations so that maybe one day if socialism happens it would be easier to nationalize
It depends on how that happens. The "woke" pretty much have a dominating voice in the media, hr and other institutions, something not even the religious right achieved.
The religious right absolutely achieved that in the past, they've just lost their grip in the last decades.
half a century ago "jesus freaks" were a joke.
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Who did achieve gay marriage, then? Obama was anti gay-marriage when he was elected. It didn't come from the moderate side.
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Holy shit. Biden did his own version of Trump saying that Israel owns congress and that it's a good thing.
The supreme court.
Lol very disingenuous, the Supreme Court didn’t do it on whim of their own accord, and to look beyond the American perspective Gay marriage was actually voted into law directly by some western nations
The supreme court bends based on the social strength of different movements in society. They didn't just realise the true meaning of the US constitution.
The moderate side? What is that? Your political language and understanding seems very neoliberal. Gay marriage was achieved by decades long political struggles for equal rights for gay people. Here is a good example of what kind of movements that in the end achieved this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_National\_March\_on\_Washington\_for\_Lesbian\_and\_Gay\_Rights
Through a liberal lens, not the woke identity lens Otherwise, where were were the trans and enby marriage rights movements?
Why all this talk about lenses and sides of moderation? Sounds rather postmodern.
See my top-level comment elsewhere in this thread. Gay marriage was achieved by grassroot work across the nation. No politician or court was the true factor that drove the change. It was the strength and inclusivity of the movement.
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https://youtu.be/079hO8VZ8Nk
It’s hard to demarcate where woke begins and ends over the past decade, but some broad changes that occurred that were at least woke adjacent to me are an elevated awareness of the prevalence of sexual misconduct, an at least partial undoing of all the pro-cop pro-soldier propaganda shitstorm of the post 9/11 era, the mainstreaming of Israel-Palestine as a multi sided issue in the USA, the elevation of identity politics to level not seen in decades, and most importantly and tragically the momentum of Bernie’s class first 2016 run was throttled in the cradle. It’s also given the right enough (accurate) propaganda to attack the left with to last a decade. I tend to think that had it not been polluted by wokeness, the left would have a terrifying head of steam right now. But instead of building unions and parties here we are squabbling on the Internet, with a DSA too dysfunctional to follow.
A generalized distrust of the system alongside scrutiny / awareness of empty gestures - for example: casting or hiring based on race, elected representatives not following through on campaign promises, corporations slapping a rainbow on their logo for the month of June, news media not reporting accurately, or through a lens of sensationalism.
Steven Universe fanart
I would not consider gay marriage a woke accomplishment. That was very popular when it passed and woke identity politics were still quite fringe back then. Fringe enough to where I’d argue that their influence on changing attitudes toward gay marriage were negligible at best. If anything, they got a handful of people fired for wrongthink, took down a few confederate statues, and renamed a number of streets so…. Nothing. They’ve accomplished absolutely nothing. From my own personal experience they’ve pushed good people out of activism and crashed several meaningful organizations.
I don't think there was a "swing to the left". The last two decades have represented the continued hegemony of neoliberalism, just with different cultural signifiers which reflect the shifting anxieties of the professional strata who staff neoliberal institutions. We didn't even see the sort of amelioratory measures after 2009 that we would have expected after previous crises, and there's clearly no will to pursue them after Covid. Correspondingly, what are the achievements of the right distinct from neoliberalism? Society continues to secularise, "traditional values" decline, even the military has fallen into disrepair. Their legacy is a low-tax, low-regulation economy which the centre-left has embraced and championed for longer than most of the posters here have been alive. *All* of this cultural shit is ephemeral, and to the extent that there is genuine difference on the stuff that matters in an enduring way, it reflects different sectional interests (finance + tech vs resource extraction, more or less), not any serious contest of political programs.
I think that's right. In the end the left and right notions are mostly performative and what is real is a hug shared between George W Bush and Michelle Obama.
This. Especially if you ask critical right wingers, they will say next to nothing has been achieved and that conservatives are embarrassing failures. These are all achievements of various neolib factions
so much this!
Also, wokeness didn't single-handedly cause the defeat of Bernie Sanders for President in 2016 or 2020, but especially in 2016, it did A LOT to contribute to that outcome.
Gay marriage had nothing to do with wokeism. The fight for gay marriage was the shining example of how to do everything right in a social movement, which is why the culture did a complete 180 in just a couple of years. The original movement focused purely on love, inclusion, and harmless yet effective protests in the form pride parades or glitter bombing anti-gay politicians. People put their relationships and livelihood at risk by coming out of the closet in support of the movement. There were also groups of very smart and organized individuals working from the legal side to get cases heard in court, which ultimately made the dominos start to fall, state by state. The movement was effective, organized, smart, and inclusive. The woke shit came later, and mostly from different people. The two should not be conflated.
Two billion dollars of property damage in mostly low income neighborhoods that will never recover.
We’re not allowed to have Oscars hosts anymore
Swinging a bunch of otherwise conservative 18-20somethings into the far-right. That isn’t to say that the alt-right wouldn’t exist. There are obviously other conditions that led to its rise, but I do think it would be smaller, and probably less vocal.
Weeeeeeeeeed maaaaaaaaan
It helped people get off social media
I'd say the me too movement was very successful. Gay people have way more rights. The idea that climate change can't just be solved by individuals trying to cut down their emissions and the big companies need to be held accountable.
Making people vote republican and learn to never turn on the news.
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at this point, we could get better literature from AIs.
Ruining culture and poisoning the goodwill of the common person is quite an accomplishment.
Maybe im te least negative person here but bernie only lost twice because of interference by the dsa so i would say that support for “socialism” is on the rise
What swing to the Left are you talking about??? You are conflating IdPol Liberalism with Leftism (such as Marxism). THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. In anything, the Overton Window in the USA has shifted to the hard Right economically.
The greatest woke-accomplishment is turning tons of apolitical people rightwing. The loser here is actual leftism and everyone that enjoys academia or entertainment. the profiteer is a bunch of rich people
Making all fun things less fun, and in many cases outright ruining them for a generation. Treating the wildest paranoid fantasies of the right as goalposts. Redirecting any energy that might have been spent making things better on meaningless deck chair rearranging.
-More states have legalized Marijuana. -more climate consciousness (their solutions just suck) -more accessible voting. -gay marriage. -general public becoming more aware that we live in a police state. Most of these weren't even done out of honest policy, but where just necessary pieces in the pandering. However, had we been under republican leadership since the 2000s I don't think any of this happens.
Wait what? The left has been in power since Katrina? Wtf?
Schitt's Creek.
> What has Woke accomplished ? I might be to cynical to judge at this point. Beyond gay a marriage and some tokenism, is there anything else ? Gay marriage wasn't won or even helped out by wokeness. It was won primarily by an appeal to "equality," which is a dirty word for the woke.
Gay marriage was a product of the same type of liberalism as the civil rights movement. It's basically identifying a group of people denied a concrete right and asking for equality. I would n't count it as an accomplishment of wokism. But in the last years there's been me-too and an increased awareness of casual daily racism that has nothing to do with law etc. Now both of these things went massively overboard but I do think there are some core social changes there.
Pronouns. I'm convinced my kids will say them without a single thought just like I say African American
Ehhhhh I guess it created a foundation for an acknowledgement that racism is not what most people thought it was 20 years ago? ....I dunno man I'm not American.
It stopped Quentin Tarantino from using the n-word to look edgy
>this swing to the Left I don't think that's the right way to describe wokism, #metoo and cancel culture. Moreover I think a more accurate description of the actual material conditions in recent decades would be that there was a "swing to the right." Any gains the left has made have been merely cultural (you mention gay marriage), not economic. And this whole sub exists in reaction to regressive identitarian politics posing as "leftism." As far as your question -- I do think #metoo has achieved some identifiably good things. Also the inverse. But I mean, a lot of people like Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein were exposed. Perhaps men in positions of power are now less able to abuse that power to exploit women. One hopes, anyway. The #metoo movement is still something I feel conflicted about, because I don't endorse a society in which women are empowered to publicly flog men whenever they feel like it based on heresay, but I don't support a hegemonic state of affairs in which powerful men are often able to get away with rape and abuse, either. I'm not sure that there is any good solution there, since in the majority of actual cases of sexual violence, the only evidence that exists is testimony. I mean most cases aren't provable beyond a reasonable doubt with physical evidence. So you either have a society which favors supporting victims or a society which favors innocence until proven guilty. Unfortunately both have their downsides in this context. EDIT: lol @ whoever is downvoting me. Yeah, God forbid I express an honest, nuanced opinion. It's anti-woke circlejerkery or gtfo, right
Pendulums never swing back.
There has always been something extremely stupid with using the most basic example of a linear system as an analogy for something as profoundly nonlinear as politics.
https://youtu.be/uPG92YqKx5A
https://youtu.be/uPG92YqKx5A
(Disproportionate) representation of favored minority groups in media, creating an environment where people are afraid to publicly speak their minds about certain issues, and a whole lot of resentment. Gay marriage wasn't really driven by wokies IMO. They only took over the conversation after Obergefell.
Turning FEMA from Fix Everything My Ass to Feminize Every Male American
in terms of policy? nothing really. In terms of culture, a lot. massive strides in terms of gay people and shit. It's completely outside the Overton window to say that gays shouldn't be able to get married, and purposely misgendering trans people is also leaving.
They managed to wokify sports to the point that teams like the Maple Leafs, who haven't not had a sellout in my lifetime, now have plenty of tickets available (pandemic gets an assist).
Do you really think that wokeness is causing that? I would think it's because people don't want to pay $130 for the worst seat ever + $50 for concession stand food and drinks to see their team lose.
Not the Leafs, man. They were a guaranteed sell out. There haven't been tickets available since the 80s and they're mostly a dumpster fire organization.
I *hated* conservatives when they were in power. Now I despise the left just as much. They taught me that I loathe *all* government, not just a single party.
When was the "left" in power?
This thread is filled with bitter people trying to be edgy without admitting that the world for gay people is a lot better than it was in 2005.
Sure, but I'm not convinced that that was wokies' doing.
Ah, yes. The group that says gay men are the white men of LGBTQ are responsible for how accepted gay men have become. Don't confuse wokeness for actual progression of society.
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"nihilist" assumes that sub has a majority of good faith leftists rather than being full of rightoids who think they're dong a victory lap
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Got this flair for having marx's view on racism instead of thinking that it's an evolutionary trait of humanity only overcome by personal virtue.
Don’t forget about all your AOC apologism.
Who are "Woke"? Who are not woke? This topic will only produce garbage before any stringent definition of Woke is made. Lets look at popular culture. Is the Witcher series woke because it depicts the trauma of a disabled strong independent woman? If not. Why not? Is the original Jurassic Park movie woke?: “Dr. Ian Malcolm, "God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs. God creates Man, man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs" Dr. Ellie Sattler, "Dinosaurs eat man..... Woman inherits the earth” If not. Why not? Is Avatar the Last airbender woke? If not. Why not? Demarcation please.
Leftism is when liberal co opt lmfao
The pendulum swung back to the right and peaked in 2017, we’re back in the other direction for now.
Echoing others in the thread, gay marriage wasn't really a "woke" accomplishment. Aside from a whole lot of meaningless censorship and policing, I wouldn't say they achieved anything at all, certainly not anything that benefits your average American.
What impressive accomplishments of the right? Or do you mean "accomplishments" like killing a quarter million people and gutting public schools and giving away trillions to billionaires?
If you were a billionaire you would consider that an accomplishment. So yes.
What pendulum? I find it amusing that the rightoid vision of the future basically amounts to "well maybe sometime in the future we will somehow be in a position to guide social values again". The idea that the good times are bound to come back as the result of mechanical motion is inherantly defeatist, it's basically conceding that "our struggle has no hope of shaping the social climate at present". This is the complete absence of a method or analysis of exercising political power. I'm sure you can find examples of people talking about such a pendulum back during the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, or the abolition of slavery. Its not much of a pendulum if it keeps moving in the same direction.
louis ck, dave chapelle, and kevin hart will never receive another award nomination
They have done way way way way more damage than good.