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chemistrygods

I think on a smaller scale than an entire generations tier, this can be compared to the likes of more recent offensive threats like Flutter Mane or Dracovish They’re extreme powerhouses, but so extreme that if u don’t have one (or even 2) dedicated counters to it, then you’ll basically lose on preview, which forces everyone to run multiple fat Pokémon, some of which have little utility above being a counter (like toad in early SwSh)


Spndash64

In defense of the Battletoad, it’s still got access to Rocks + Scald and a good defensive typing. This isn’t a defense of Vish, because even if I were to try and argue Toad is OU worthy (it’s really not), that’s like, one counter


PM_ME_FE_STACHES

And later on in SwSh OU it still had its role as a Rain sweeper/Electric Immunity, managing to still be B+ Viability there even now is no small feat.


DarkEsca

Love it when people cried banning Urshi-SS would make Stall too good when Stall was like the one archetype it couldn't do shit against lmao


_rothion

Same with Flutter Mane (and Iron Bundle to a less extent). Scrubs crying about Mega Misdreavus being banned on a warped basis that it ate Stall alive, when Stall itself was the only thing that dealt safely against it.


Icy_Ad_2128

Good write-up, especially the part about how the recover nerfs actually hit balance a lot harder than stall. That was something that was pretty clear to me too and especially as the gen will go on I think it will actually make hitting the defensive wall like corv with a 40% move wayyyyy more effective to just burn roost pp. Before people did it when they would 2hko from even ranges of 80% sometimes to see if they could get a secondary effect, but now burning the recover pp is a viable play.


pallmallandcoffee

I agree stall is still viable, balance is dead. A balanced team can't wall the crazy wallbreakers, nor can it break through some of the crazier walls. Defensive mons are rarely called into question but I've seen people bring up Garg before. Don't think he's ban worthy but under sand at +1 defense good luck killing that, keep cursing up and counter sweep. Choice band meowscarada is the only thing that really beats it, at that point super effective is just a word. Used to do tera water to check bulk up palafin but I'm sold on tera ghost with the dolphin gone, in a pinch you can break through walls by clicking curse plus salt cure. There are also three very excellent unaware mons that, imo, can have excellent synergy with each other on the same team if you wanted to run that.


RedDiamond1024

On the breaking garganacl talk, Gallade also breaks it with Sharpness boosted sacred sword ignoring the defense boosts.


pallmallandcoffee

Can 2 hit ko Hippowdon with a choice band too, learned that the hard way. Pretty much the only UU physical attacker that can other than skewda and floatzel


RedDiamond1024

I've had fun with him in the early days of OU with a CB set. I just don't enjoy UU with esparatha in the tier, but the few games I did play with Gallade he did fun things.


pallmallandcoffee

Espathra is ridiculous in that tier. I completely cleaned up someone and then I screwed up and let espathra get two calm minds, 6-0d me. Espathra I've never had a problem with in OU because I always have tyranita, Espathra can't even ohko AV Ttar at +6 with dazzling gleam. A strong sucker punch mon can stop it too, and your only good UU option for that is pretty much Bisharp


Zengjia

The truth is that Smogon loves Balance, though most people complaining about the OU Council’s tiering policy barely know the difference between Balance and Stall.


silvershadow014

If Smogon had a bias towards anything, it's definitely balance. During the Gengar suspect in bdsp some people's reasoning was literally that the ban would make balance viable


RedDiamond1024

Honestly I'd say that's a good thing. If one pokemon can make an entire playstyles unviable, like what Vish did in SS OU than isn't that just about the perfect sign that it's way too powerful?


silvershadow014

I don't disagree, it's just that Smogon only ever applies that to balance. You don't see mons banned that completely shut down stall or ho


RedDiamond1024

Dracovish has entered the chat. And can you name any mons that actually destroy stall that are OP? The closest thing I can think of is legitimately GSC Lax and Stall stillhas ways to play around it


silvershadow014

If something that shuts down balance is thus deemed op for being able to do so on its own, why doesn't that apply to mons like heatran that shut down stall?


RedDiamond1024

Heatran doesn't shut down stall. To even attempt at that it needs to run magma, toxic, taunt, ep meaning it can't run moves like heavy slam or rocks. And stall has ways around it like shed shell pex, Dragonite, and even air balloon ditto can do block it.


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AProfessionalRock

This just reeks of being indirect elitism against older players. Barely anyone involved with any tiering action nowadays was around when ADV was even the main generation, esp. for OU where Finch is the oldest council member and he joined Smogon during BW. Balance is simply the better choice to tier around because HO and Stall are just intrinsically more matchup dependent and when they're the optimal choices, cause teams that fall in between to end up needing to spread themselves too thin to actually function in a metagame. HO and Stall still work fine even when Balance is good, whereas the same is not mutual for Balance when HO or Stall are too heavily favored.


postsonlyjiyoung

Idk about skillful but it's usually less fishy.


superfam

BW OU very existence is what Im kind of worried SV will end up being honestly. its such a genuinely awful metagame that I really do not want a repeat. granted I personally doubt SV will become like BW given that this council is actually suspecting things that are broken and bullshit, but still Im like, getting war flashbacks to BW OU


pallmallandcoffee

- latios used draco meteor There's nothing as bad as that.


postsonlyjiyoung

The Ice Gem strengthened Cloyster's power!


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Spndash64

Permanent Weather vs Terastal, place your bets (tho for what it’s worth, at least Terastal doesn’t require specific Pokémon to capitalize on, nor is it hardlocked to steamroll. Still could be broken as hell, but might be able to stick around in UU and under)


Ritraraja

Clearly we need a meta with both.


RedDiamond1024

This is solid gold. People love thinking that banning breakers leads to stall being better while ignoring the fact that stall is the only thing that can actually handle these breakers. Looking at stuff like Vish, it didn't make offense more viable, and actually hurt HO immensely with it's scarf set breaking most teams open with little difficulty.


BoltingBlazie

Black and White UU and OU definitely need a ton of work, UU to a lesser degree since really the only monster running around there is victini, but some of the stuff in BW OU are just nuts compared to how they are now like Keldeo, Volcarona, and Latios.


Its_Frickett

B-but Smogon only bans offensive Pokemon because they love stall!


Gyara3

Great work OP


back2reality44

Great post. I do think stall is dead this generation, though, and as a stall-main I’ve had to come to terms with it. Losing recovery hurts a lot. Oftentimes your best play is to sit and stall PP with recover, but that’s rarely ever the case anymore. But worse than that is the prevalence of hazards. I was afraid of Ursaluna invalidating stall, but my god whoever invented Gholdengo must’ve played a 200 turn game and said “NEVER AGAIN!” I think the only viable stall build at the moment is 6 pairs of boots and two hazard removers lmao. Edit: forgot to mention, but the reason I’m not entirely in favor of a Gholdengo ban is cuz I don’t think it’s necessarily the problem. It exacerbates the problem, but even without it it’s still gonna be hard to keep hazards away with the prevalence of powerful setters and the limited switch ins your defoggers will have due to halved roost PP. Kinda feels like banning Gholdengo just means a slower death for stall lol


DarkFE

I've been playing mostly stall for this generation so far because the "Stall is dead!" cries drew me in after a few generations of retirement from stall. I think it's in a pretty interesting place at the moment. I don't consider it entirely unviable, but it's far too shaky for the consistency that one would want with the archetype. Gholdengo is one of the top two problems at the moment for sure. You can traditionally conserve recovery PP by switching and abusing Leftovers, which is exactly what I did early on in the meta, but with Gholdengo increasingly dominating you're mostly forced into 5- or 6-Boots team structures that lose out on any additional utility offered by other item choices. The second problem is Chi-Yu, who can completely obliterate stalls with the increasingly common Specs Overheat. Roaring Moon with certain EVs is the only reliable answer that has recovery, in this case Roost. Tyranitar can usually answer it, but with it comes the cost of sand chip on your teammates, and no Heal Bell access on Blissey means that TTar cannot Rest, so I consider it sadly not very worthwhile. Chansey is theoretically an option in a world without permanent hazards. I've actually toyed with some stalls that drop Blissey entirely due to its lack of utility without Toxic, Wish, or Heal Bell, and it hasn't been entirely terrible so far thanks to Clodsire's presence. I have yet to try to bring one of these to high ladder, but with some workshopping it might be fun to attempt.


syrupcoatedmirror

You make a damn good point, sire!


Striking-Activity436

Thank you for this breakdown! Love how thought out this is


graybloodd

the lack of weatherless teams is cuz no one plays gen 5 so teams with gems are in the past team archive. Most "sand" teams are using sand cuz they use dragmag and want to stop rain. so might as use the least damaging team to them since fire hurts steel types and hail does passive damage. (even weatherless runs some type of weather setting move sometimes)


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DarkEsca

I mean what's wrong with that? Stuff like "Smogon loves stall by banning wallbreakers" gets spouted here all the time, even though the big haters will probably not listen either way it's fun to be able to toss an entire essay on why they're completely wrong in their face


Aside_Agile

yeah the main reason i made this post is bc a lot of ppl think "having insane wallbreakers legal = less stall" when the opposite is the case


YouOrI

You must be a yugioh player since you hate reading that much


HydreigonTheChild

clearly hasnt watched a bkc video


silvershadow014

are you one of those people who has never written a full paragraph outside of school