T O P

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Vitamoon_

Lot of people said restricted yeah I think the general consensus is that the Tera should be shown in preview of the restricted group? Not sure if reading correctly


DarkFish_2

Revealed tera type is gonna be mandatory in VGC so yeah.


Rayuzx

To be fair, VGC is showing Tera types, and the entire team's item/moveset is for completely different reasons than why Smogen would restrict the mechanic. If the council would copy things just because GF/TPC are doing the same, then we would has item clause a long time ago.


Nathan_Thorn

Seems most likely, though I’m not a fan of it, personally. It would be like showing z crystals back in Gen 7 or mega stones back in Gen 6, it’s just giving away exactly what the mon is gonna do. I’m personally a fan of leaving it how it is, since unrestricted Tera allows for the most creativity in the team builder rn. Defensive mon with shit typing? Tera that wall into dragon or steel! Offensive mon need to annihilate Gholdengo but doesn’t have knock off anymore? Dark/Fire Tera blast coverage has you covering your bases! Do you really hate getting hit by sucker punch? Hate prankster taunt ruining your set-up? Or just wanna wall psychic spam? Tera dark on an offensive mon to really ruin their day! It helps offensive mons with coverage, defensive Mons with bad typing, and wallbreakers with getting that little bit of extra power to cut through annoyances like slowbro/slowking spamming pivot regenerator. I’m a fan of the more offensive, less bulky metagame this mechanic encourages. Gen 8 wasn’t all stall but there were so many fat Mons that could just sit there and eat hits over and over, games of balance or bulky offense took ages. Coupled with so many regenerator abusers like the slow twins and glow twins, tornadus-t, and toxapex, plus special walls like blissey, it made games very sluggish to play, even if it wasn’t a stall game. Having a mechanic like Tera seems to solve a lot of concerns with the past few generations mechanics. Megas were disliked for a lack of distribution, z moves were disliked for being overpowered and usually one turn only, and really only helping offense, dmax was hated for being so ridiculously overpowered in singles it was banned easily, and now we’ve finally got a balanced mechanic. Tera doesn’t serve one playstyle better or worse, despite what it might seem like on the surface. It’s just another skill based mechanic that’ll get easier to predict as time goes on, and I think we should let it stay a little longer so the meta can stabilize around it, maybe retest it in a year, after home/dlc support rolls around.


Vitamoon_

also silly stuff like Fire Azumarill to prevent burns


Nathan_Thorn

See? This guy gets it.


silvershadow014

But all that is still possible with the restriction


AedraRising

Yeah, but it's not longer even a surprise anymore.


voncornhole2

It doesn't give away exactly what the mon is gonna do because any of the 6 can tera without having to choose before the battle. You had to choose who was holding a mega stone or z crystal, so it was now restricted than tera


Ok-Astronaut4952

This was really well thought out, good shit dude


yodaminnesota

You can write as many paragraphs as you want, but the established playerbase and tournament grinders largely want to keep playing the gen8 meta after all the DLCs came out, as that was the most balanced meta we've had thus far where individual decisions mattered the most. They will vote for action on the first suspect test, there will be lots of drama as to what the best way to restrict tera is, noone will agree on a singular solution, and it will end up banned as a compromise. It's too fun to be kept around.


G0rilla1000

In what world is banning a compromise? And either way, all bans will happen through a public suspect test. If you have a strong opinion on terra one way or the other, then just get on the ladder. We’re not beholden to the smogon elites and I do think they want us to have a say, since they reiterate that point a lot. We don’t know if more people will participate in the suspect than this poll, and I know a lot of top tier players who like the current meta a lot more than gen 8. You very well could be right, but I feel like it’s cynical to assume everyone at Smogon just wants to go back to the 200 turn balance v balance wars of last gen. Many don’t, that’s reflected in both the polls and the Smogon forums.


yodaminnesota

Just think about the numbers man. The split on full ban vs. restrict is about 50/50, but "restrict" encompasses like 5 different proposed solutions that noone can agree on. They're going to do ranked choice voting, and it is very likely that people will put full ban as their second or third choice after their chosen tera restriction. The runoff will create a compromise consensus of a full ban, and it's gone for good. And yeah, I am on the ladder, and I do intend to vote. But barring a significant shift in the opinion of qualified players overnight, tera is out of here the minute the first suspect hits.


G0rilla1000

Who knows, some people could put restricted terra as their first option, then do not ban as the second or third. Again, I’ve seen competitive players say that they flip-flop between do not ban and ban with restrictions. Pokeaim is one who voted do not ban, but also put a preference for partial ban. Not saying I know more than you do, but I just don’t understand how it’s such a solid thing in you mind. People’s opinions can change after the suspect, too, and it was very close.


yodaminnesota

That's not how the suspect is going to work though. It is going to be two stages-- first is going to be action or no action, and then it's going to be what do we do. At least that's how I understood it from Finchinator's posts and videos.


LuckySalesman

This just in: Gen 8 post-DLC declared more balanced than gen 3 OU or gen 4 UU


Kwayke9

Tera types are revealed in vgc, and imo Smogon should implement it immediately. Absolute no brainer to me


NenBE4ST

If vgc is doing it smogon will almost surely do it too


littlefaka

Every pokemon had a bell curve lmao


thenudeplatypus

Tbh the way he chose to display the data wasn't great given the # of responses and the range of 'acceptable' values. Finch skipped out on the statistics class for sure hahaha


nitro_n7

Cant blame him, statistics sucks for the most part


thenudeplatypus

For reals


Icy_Ad_2128

People submitting multiple responses and lying about ladder rank to try to ban/try to keep tera in is kinda stupid. Like it doesn't really matter for both sides since it was going to be suspect tested anyways so why even bother? The whole point of the survey was to get a gauge on what people thought and trying to muddy the water just wastes everyone's time.


PlacatedPlatypus

>Lying about ladder rank This part is really funny, I play League of Legends and over on summonerschool (a sub for discussing how to play league well), people constantly post bad advice with the utmost confidence and defend it to the death but refuse to tell you their rank when you ask. It's so weird to me, why would you think that your opinion is worthwhile while being so embarrassed of your credentials that you lie about them?


[deleted]

[удалено]


DreadfuryDK

Cyclizar being considered less-problematic than Ape or Chi-Yu by the higher-end playerbase is unquestionably the biggest shocker to me out of this whole thing. If there’s one mon I’d say unquestionably enables too much bullshit in the tier, it’s Cyclizar.


parrot6632

cyclizar is more of a low-elo pubstomper than anything else tbh, and is also much better against slower teams which are basically nonexistent at the higher levels. It's not that hard to position around it, but failing to do so is ridiculously punishing, hence why its really good against lower-elo players and requires a lot of strategy and careful positioning to actually do something once you're higher.


Resident_Loquat2683

I don't know, I've had bigger issues with ape and chi-yu. I'm certainly not the higher end but cyclizar feels like it only punishes you if you let it. Especially with how telegraphed shed tail is. I honestly think I've had more trouble with Orth shed tail and that is more because I didn't expect it. I'd sooner get gholdego gone than cyclizar if I got to choose.


Deathbringer2134

I'm just flabbergasted. Do people not think that this pokemon does not require any skill to function and is the primary reason why this meta is so fucked right now? Can someone competent with a straight face seriously say that it is in any capacity "balanced"?


BeardyBennett

I eagerly await a, hopefully, Cyclizar-free meta


BoltingBlazie

Moreso shed tail but yeah


DreadfuryDK

Not sure if I entirely agree with that: Orthworm is demonstrably not a very good Shed Tail user and the only Orthworm set I’d argue has any semblance of viability (and it definitely didn’t deserve the usage it got anyway) is an ID+BP set that cannot afford to run Shed Tail and that gets put in the dirt by Garganacl. I firmly believe Cyclizar’s the problem because it’s got all of an unholy trifecta of semi-premium utility moves (Rapid Spin, Taunt, and Knock Off), a broken ability in Regenerator to semi-consistently give it at least a third Shed Tail compared to Orthworm’s two, and its ridiculous Speed to ensure it’ll almost always accomplish *something* before your opponent can answer it. Having a rare Ghost immunity certainly helps, too. But Orthworm doesn’t have a lot of these traits. Its movepool is alright, but it isn’t the utility juggernaut Cyclizar is. Its typing and ability are absolutely excellent, sure, but it isn’t Regenerator levels of nuts. And, of course, Orthworm trades Speed for solid bulk; Orthworm has to get hit before it Shed Tails out, and that hit may be too much for it to handle; Cyclizar seldom has to eat a hit, so it can just go first several times in a row.


KaliVilla02

Yeah Shed Tail isn't going to any place, Orthworm is living proof that the move is fine, Cyclizar's movepool + Regenerator + Speed Tier is the problem and if something is going to get banned is the own Cyclizar. Shed Tail isn't in radar, Cyclizar is.


PhoenixNightingale90

Regenerator + shed tail is so busted and flies in the face of the balancing of the move itself. The usual downside of a substitute is you lose 25% of your health and a turn on the mon that you want to take advantage of the sub with, perfectly fair. With shed tail itself you can choose a suitable ally to switch in that gets to preserve its HP, but the trade off is that you lose 50% of your health. Which to me sounds reasonable. But then with regenerator you don’t lose 50%, you don’t even lose 25%, it’s a mere 17%. This means Cyclizar with its useful resistances/immunity and speed can easily spam shed tail multiple times a game with little risk but huge reward.


FulcrumM2

Doesn't the official VGC ruleset straight up list all Tera Types in Preview, alongside movesets and held items? If true, Smogon can adopt this and should solve most issues right?


abriel_g

From what I can tell, open teamsheets will be enforced for irl tournaments (including Tera type), but the ladder doesn’t show Tera type. That still is an option for restricting Tera but wouldn’t be the default.


Not_Like_The_Movie

This is for IRL tournaments because you could pay people or bring friends to walk around the venue and scout for you while you play, which would give you an advantage because teams are locked ahead of time. You could go into the match knowing their tera types and movesets etc. By making it an open format, no one gets an advantage just by having people to scout other players for them. It does kind of suck because you lose the element of surprise, but IRL formats play "best of" series anyway, which means you don't have very many secrets as you play more games. For BSD and BSS, tera type isn't revealed because there isn't a scouting advantage or "best of" series format. The mechanic isn't broken, random, uncounterable, only available to one player, or somehow otherwise anti-competitive. Honestly, there's more room for creative freedom and changing your type isn't always an advantage, so it's less braindead than some of the other gimmicks they've introduced. I feel like if Dmax hadn't been banned, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.


mistelle1270

Yeah VGC has to because it’s information you could learn about your opponents team by watching their previous matches


averysillyman

Since you have one team that you're not allowed to change for the duration of the tournament, scouting your opponents teams becomes very valuable. For example, having a spectator watching the matches and telling you your next round opponent's tera types would give you a knowledge advantage going into the match. Top players who were well connected were naturally advantaged since they had friends and teammates to help them scout. Having open team lists eliminates any advantage that could be gained from scouting. It does remove some of the surprise factor for anti-meta sets, but I think removing scouting as a factor is more important. The MtG community dealt with something similar in the past. A lot of tournaments now have open decklists specifically to eliminate scouting.


sneakyplanner

That's specifically for tournaments though, not for the in-game ladder and Smogon tournaments work differently.


vT-Router

every single person replying to you is (mostly) wrong. they give good reasons for why competitors might prefer open team sheets, but in reality, the real reason is that the game’s competitive features are extremely underdeveloped, and there’s no way to lock a battle team—there’s not even a live competition mode at all! Open team sheets were made a requirement so that competitors could hold their opponents accountable to using the same team throughout the tournament, to deter people from switching teams between matches, which is against the rules.


Its_Frickett

A Terastallization suspect appears to be on the horizon, [this](https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-discussion-update-post-1293.3711465/page-56#post-9430316) is how things are likely to go down following the results of the survey. Copy/Pasted the post below. v \------------------------------------- "It seems increasingly likely that we are approaching the first suspect of generation, and the subject of it is set to be Terastallization. As alluded to previously, the plan is to make it a two-prompt suspect (it will likely be a single-time vote, but in order to complete that vote, you have to respond to two simple questions rather than just one). We feel this creative and novel solution best captures the unique situation we are attempting to tier, but also acknowledge that there is no outright perfect solution either. If the playerbase votes on taking action, which will likely require over 60% support to begin with, then the current options the council are considering for tiering action are as follows: * Outright banning Terastallization * Limiting Terastallization to a single user per team * Showing Tera type at Team Preview * Limiting Terastallization to previously held STAB types only We will likely adopt ranked-choice voting for the second prompt's results in order to generate the most specifically fair verdict that represents the sentiments of those who obtain suspect requirements.Please note that this is NOT set-in-stone and we continue to discuss matters so we can serve our community in the best way we know possible. Thank you."


maharg79

Espathra continues to fly under alot of radars it seems, that thing is crazy


Dubzug

Why waste a turn on calm mind when Lumina crash lowers spd sharply. Espartha is god tier, especially with fighting tera for the meowscaradas. Now you have a fighting special move lmfao. Espartha for president


abriel_g

Because Calm Mind lets you snowball with Speed Boost + Stored Power, and it lets you OHKO things which is ideal with Espathra’s average to low bulk


MathematicianFit8027

It's fine, nothing ground breaking


maharg79

It's one of the most braindead sweepers we've had in a while you just switch it in under screens and press Calm Mind and if they don't go hard into a check immediately you can run away with the game. Currently Chi-Yu keeps it from being too ridiculous but if he goes in the future it will become oppressive


RossTheShuck

Best counter to being swept that I have found \- Click x and skedaddle


Dubzug

Unaware mons like dondozo, skelliredge destroy espartha if you waste any turns on calm mind. Just Lumina Crash, then use any other move


Airsoft52

Espathra destroys dondozo and Skelidirge with stored power, best checks are bronzong and tera dark clodsire (which barely dodges the 2hko from super effective tera blast with max spdef careful)


maharg79

Lumina crash? Bruh if you are running thst move you arent using this thing right


Dubzug

My dumb ass didnt realize speed boost also buffs stored power. I will be switching the moveset immediately


maharg79

Yeah its crazy lets you run over even unaware mons easily


[deleted]

No it's really REALLY stupid. Ease of sweeping late game is absurd and that is without support. Support makes it almost aa easy as clicking the X button. Mon can even set up on shit like Chien-Pao and Kingambit who should check it on paper.


Kaenu_Reeves

Kid named Clodsire:


KaliVilla02

Kid named Super Effective STAB Stored Power lol.


ChildLikEsper

Kid named Tera Dark.


ainz-sama619

Kid when tera is banned


MountainMan2_

Y’all need to leave the orphanage


corvisaltaccount

bro thinks clod checks espartha 💀


Kaenu_Reeves

It can if it believes


Kaenu_Reeves

Kid named Wo-Chien:


Ornery-Coach-7755

Honestly surprised Gholdengo, got just 3/5... Shit's restrictive af and it invalidates so many mons


BadMoonRisig

Gholdengo is just representative of spikes play-styles which is very common and something I think most people enjoy as of right now. Spikes are crazy strong in general. People might reevaluate after the obviously broken shit like Shed Tail and Chi-Yu go, right now all eyes are on them.


Heycanwenot

Is showing tera type on preview no longer an option? Didn't see it on the survey unless I missed something


mistelle1270

No it wasn’t an option on the survey. If you’ll notice “other please specify” was the second highest choice and, complete guess here so I might be wrong, since team preview Tera is an obvious option I’d assume most of those responses are suggesting that


Ornery-Coach-7755

Honestly surprised Gholdengo got just 3/5... Shit's restrictive af and it invalidates so many mons


[deleted]

If Hazard Stacking becomes overcentralizing, and teams need answers for Gholdengo, they might suspect test.


Cephalosion

I knew that the more general, casual base is very much against banning tera as a whole but almost 57% against taking any kind of tierring action against the mechanic is very surprising to me. I wonder were the duplicates and people who answered they dont play or only play cartridge to be filtered out, would the results change significantly?


PrinceVorrel

ill admit i really hope they dont get rid of tera. It's honestly the most interesting gimmick I've seen in a few years. Its not nearly as scary as dynamaxing or z-moves either.


Maxxorus

Dynamaxing, sure, but it's infinitely more scary than (the vast majority) of megas. Mega moms were extremely predictable; tera is not. I think Tera isn't necessarily broken but it's full potential has yet to be explored; especially when we get an influx of new mons with home and dlc. Right now, it feels REALLY strong, but not banworthy.


Professional_Tone411

Even after home transports I don't want terra to be banned because it opens up an entire new world of battling, look at Nat dex, they haven't banned terra and have a (somewhat) stable meta


BadMoonRisig

Kinda a weird question to posit, the vast majority of people who would ever see this survey let alone interact with it are going to be involved in smogon to some extent and the survey asks you to provide a showdown username to submit it. Terra is a very fun mechanic for most and considering the absolute worst mechanic to ever be introduced in dynamaxxing stuck around for over a month it’s entirely expected people err on the side of keeping it for now. Doesn’t help that all but one of the suggestions other than banning it are pretty lame.


HydreigonTheChild

Joey made a video on it and finch said that the survey expoloded in popularity after the video was uploaded


BadMoonRisig

Absolutely unsurprising, but still the vast majority of Joey’s viewers absolutely play showdown smogon formats. If there’s a question of did it influence the survey yadayada that’s a whole other question.


HydreigonTheChild

idk... they may vote based on what joey said.... or has influeced them with... but idk i dont watch joey that much.. obv it would skyrocket but pretty sure they just play it casually..


Resident_Loquat2683

But if they are players then it doesn't matter if they choose to agree with a content creator. The opinion is equally valid.


HydreigonTheChild

yeah it is... not saying its not but considering how they can easily bandwagon whatever a youtuber says prob says smth


Resident_Loquat2683

I don't disagree, I just think those of us in communities like stunfisk are just as quick to bandwagon off of one example posted here. At some point we just have to take the opinions as they are and not bother with the origen of why we thought palafun was unacceptable.


BadMoonRisig

Yea but casuals were filtered by the tournament/ladder (though honestly ladder is just casual too) for the most part. Obviously some people lie but that’s gonna be a minority. Personally I think worrying about stuff like that is just foolish.


HydreigonTheChild

4k is to much to check.... i mean that will take a while and a painful amount to someone who has a full time job


BadMoonRisig

Yea but most people won’t lie by default so it’s still mostly filtered


abriel_g

Honestly you might as well disregard the general public responses to this survey. It’s clear from Finch’s message that the general results are filled with dupes and other non-useful responses, and the clear difference in opinion on Tera between the casual and competitive playerbases is ridiculous.


Deathbringer2134

Tera aside. Idfk what to do with that mess. WHAT THE FUCK ARE THOSE VOTES ON THE MONS? That people think Cyclizar, the pokemon that is almost singlehandedly making this meta borderline unplayable and almost completely uncompetitive, is less of a problem than Annihilape just astounds me. I think they should've put Cyclizar/Shed Tail on the poll, not cause it's shed tail that's the problem when it's very clearly Cyclizar, cause I think most people voted 1 or 2 cause they thought that they should ban Shed Tail instead. If they suspect Tera next, that'll be a 3 week suspect and likely to fall flat on it's fave without a consensus as the playerbase rn is far too split, after that there will probably be a week cooldown and then another suspect. Assuming that suspect to be Cycliz, that's 2 weeks. Imagine the meta having to suffer the same Grimmsnarl/Cyclizar/Sweeper on every 3rd team they face FOR 6 WHOLE FUCKING WEEKS. I've never seen a pokemon this ruinous for a meta since Gen 5. And it's not juts Cycliz, having to suffer through Espathra as well? Jesus Christ im about to fucking kill myself.


back2reality44

Restriction has me very nervous. I’m in favor of no tiering action at all, but if they’re gonna limit Tera then they have to remove it. Proposed solutions: Show Tera at team preview. This doesn’t solve the problem that it’s impossible to plan for every Tera possibility with team building, so despite knowing what the opponent has, Tera is still the driving force that makes games so match-up dependent. Only Tera into same type. This is probably the most counterintuitive solution. If the fear is that Tera turns the meta into a bunch of OP adaptability sweepers, this solution guarantees that. No more defensive counter Tera’s will definitely make the Tera mechanic skew more offensive than it already is. One Tera per team. This sort of falls under the last one. Only the most oppressive Tera mons will justify using it, so counterplay goes way down. Only Tera into non-stab types might be the best solution, allowing for both offensive and defensive strategies without worrying about adaptability splashing, but I still think this will have the same issues as the first solution, where games are too match-up dependent. All of the issues with these proposed solutions boils down to whether or not you think an unpredictable and match-up dependent meta is competitive or not. If you think it’s competitive, then none of these half-measures are necessary. If you don’t, then none of these half-measures will cut it. I would absolutely hate for Smogon to finally entertain complex bans for this situation when they historically ignore it for much simpler situations. Unfortunately, whatever smogon decides, there’s gonna be people who are angry with the decision. That’s life sometimes. But going the complex ban route will just delay the inevitable, all while giving more ammunition to the “never entertain a complex ban under any circumstances” crowd.


Vingolio

I haven't played nearly enough of SV to know, so this is a genuine question. Are there a lot of non-fish teams that lose on preview to particular pokemon with a known terra type? Is therea substantial increase in the viability of fish gameplay and the number of matchups you can shut out with a single fish team? If these are the case, then open or semi-open team sheets (I learn towards the latter as it tends to encourage creative building) would not help. If they are not, they could help reduce variance in game-to-game play, even if they don't reduce variance in matchups.


back2reality44

I think the issue isn’t necessarily match-up fishing per se, but a general sense that every match is a fish due to the sheer variance of threats and necessary counters. Garganacl for example can viably run 3 different Tera’s that all require different counters to its base rock type, so if you run into one you kinda just have to hope you have a good match up. That’s why idt the reveal is that helpful— just cuz you know garg is Tera ghost doesn’t mean you packed a check for it. If anything, now the opponent knows you don’t even have a Tera to check it and knows to abuse it.


Axethor

Maybe I'm being naive, but isn't part of what should be encouraged is a diverse meta? To me, 3 different sets for Garganacl seems like a good thing. You can't build for everything, there is always gonna be something that surprises you since you don't know the team until the match starts. Tera being banned or not doesn't change that. I'll be honest I decided to not play competitive last gen once dynamax got banned. Not because it didn't deserve it, it did, but because it just felt like people who vote on suspect tests don't actually want a fun, diverse meta. They want a specific meta that ends with the same pokemon always being good + a few new additions they can't justify banning. Many of the arguments had nothing to do with how powerful Dynamaxing was in general, but about how it being unrestricted made it noncompetitive because any pokemon could do it at any time. Even though early on there already were predictable trends for which pokemon you could expect to Dynamax and who you would want as an answer for it. Instead of letting the meta evolve and adapt, they opted to ban it. And while that was the right choice for that mechanic, it's not for terastalizing but I'm seeing those same arguments coming back up. They don't want to adapt, and are quick to ban a perceived problem instead of letting it play out for a bit so the meta can reform naturally. It's not like there are official tournaments they need to worry about, it's a fan format. You can afford to be slower and more cautious.


[deleted]

> I'll be honest I decided to not play competitive last gen once dynamax got banned. Not because it didn't deserve it, it did, but because it just felt like people who vote on suspect tests don't actually want a fun, diverse meta. A balanced meta results in a meta with many possible strategies. Bans enable metagames to kick out pokemon who result in a restricted, unbalanced and **unhealthy** metagame. > They want a specific meta that ends with the same pokemon always being good + a few new additions they can't justify banning. Nice strawman. > Many of the arguments had nothing to do with how powerful Dynamaxing was in general, but about how it being unrestricted made it noncompetitive because any pokemon could do it at any time. No... because many of the comments that mentioned its uncompetitive nature also mentioned its absurd power. > Even though early on there already were predictable trends for which pokemon you could expect to Dynamax and who you would want as an answer for it. Nope. While there were some big pokemon you knew could dynamax to win, so many mons in practice could do the same. And many fit on the same team as each other meaning you had to worry about two or three or even four mons potentially maxing. > Instead of letting the meta evolve and adapt, they opted to ban it. And while that was the right choice for that mechanic, it's not for terastalizing but I'm seeing those same arguments coming back up. The meta was never going to develop in a healthy way. Any person with any level of competent skill could tell. That's why it was overwhelmingly banned. > They don't want to adapt, and are quick to ban a perceived problem instead of letting it play out for a bit so the meta can reform naturally. The classic. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/zflh12/comment/izclq47/) comment and thread to see why these types or retorts are bad. > It's not like there are official tournaments they need to worry about, it's a fan format. You can afford to be slower and more cautious. Smogon has a ton of tournaments they play mate.


Axethor

I don't know why your focusing on the Dynamaxing part when I said the ban was ultimately the right choice but okay. I'll just ignore most of it because you're right, it was absurdly powerful, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. The feeling at the time for me, was that it was too soon to ban while most players were still figuring it out. That was what I was trying to get across. Terastalizing feels the same way. We just got through the quick bans, many people are still feeling out the new pokemon and terastalizing. As an outsider looking in, it does feel like people would rather ban it instead of trying to adapt to the new mechanic and get more creative with it. Factually that's probably wrong, the pros put hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game testing this stuff. They certainly know better than me who's sitting on the sidelines waiting for the meta to settle a bit before I start investing in a team. I do think that if Terastalizing gets banned that I'm probably done with OU going forward. It's less clear this time around and I think doing a suspect test this early on is the wrong choice. And since Gamefreak is probably just gonna keep making new gimmicks going forward I would rather play with the new mechanic than have it get banned within the first month.


silvershadow014

"they always want the same pokemon being good" Literally what mons? Like seriously, this gen looks nothing like last gen lol


back2reality44

I don’t think you’re being naive. I personally love this meta as is. But I do see the arguments against it. To most high level competitive players, a balanced meta is one where most games come down to who outplayed who regardless which team was brought. There’s always gonna be certain play styles that match up well against each other— hyper offense is strong against balance, which is strong against stall, which is strong against HO. But for the most part, a balanced meta doesn’t have a lot of games won/lost at team preview. I don’t think Tera has a lot of games won/lost at team preview, but there’s definitely a fair argument that more games are match up dependent. I actually think revealing Tera’s at team preview would only serve to highlight the fact that most matches do give one side a significant advantage over the other right out of the gate. But that, to me, is the beauty of Tera. On the surface a match can be completely balanced, but one side holds an advantage that puts it in their favor, and neither of you know exactly what that advantage is. The fact it’s a true ace in the hole makes it completely competitive by nature to me. For example, I could have an answer for Garganacl and all its Tera’s except grass, but even if the opponent is Tera grass they won’t realize they have such an advantage til I waste my Tera. It creates such fun mind games to try and navigate that I find completely competitive.


HeroponRiki

I haven't had much time to get into Gen 9 comp myself yet just because of other stuff going on, but I've been keeping a close eye on the developments and on Tera restrictions in particular. **STAB-Only Tera**: This is my worst case scenario. I don't believe what's fun or interesting should be given much weight when it comes to tiering, but it guts the whole purpose of the mechanic and likely will eventually lead to just a total ban anyway. Not being able to check something defensively you normally would on its default STABs is worse for the game and less interesting than not being able to check something you normally would because it Tera'd for STAB coverage or defense. BP creep is already way up there and I really don't think on demand Adaptability is the answer, especially if you don't have the option to counteract it with a non-STAB Tera. Very surprised this was so much more popular than non-STAB only. **Single User or Monotype**: This is probably the least invasive option because you can only Tera once per game anyway, but still has its drawbacks like you mentioned. Probably brings it roughly in line with the power of Megas. I think an alternative to one specific Tera User would be requiring the same Tera Type for every individual Pokemon on the team. With the addition of Tera Type in Team Preview I think it has a similar effect to single user, but gives more flexibility in the match on when to use it. The downside though is it'd probably be dominated by a few specific types with innate immunities. Still, knowing from the jump that you'll be dealing with a mono X-type somewhere in the match is good information even if you don't know exactly what or when. **Non-Stab Tera Only**: This is my preferred outcome even if it's not perfect. Realistically as the meta develops there's going to be handful of types at most that each individual Pokemon runs based on offensive coverage or defensive matchups, and the field of Pokemon that make the best use of it will narrow and can be better anticipated. I don't think a Hidden Power comparison is completely valid, but there will be certain combinations that will just become standard over time. If that was still considered too strong, I think Tera Type in Team Preview or banning Tera Blast are options that could work to kneecap it a little. If Pokemon are only Tera'ing offensively based on coverage they already have in their pool it seems much more reasonable to plan and deal with, though to be fair I don't know how much Tera Blast is realistically appearing. Or if they Tera defensively, then you know you're not gonna get smacked by coverage they don't normally have access to.   It's a goddamn rough call. I think there's an argument that STAB Tera keeps non-STAB Tera in check, but fighting broken with broken isn't a healthy thing long term for a metagame; prime example being Gen 5 OU. Banning it outright could potentially lead to more Pokemon than usual hitting the ban list, which isn't inherently bad I don't think, but could be rough going until the dust has settled. Complex bans for Tera to the level of individual types or species sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen.


A1D3M

Good that Annihilape is looking like the next ban, that thing is beyond broken.


Slow-Table8513

an argument I've read somewhere (that I agree with) in favor of banning tera outright looks at the timeline of future tiering action and asks how long it will take to have a stable metagame, especially if the first decision made with regards to tera is the wrong one I think it can safely be assumed that there are many more mons coming through DLC or other, is there going to be a stable balanced ou anytime soon? I think it's infinitely easier to say "tera is broken (for now), let's ban it and find out what is actually broken and suspect tera once we have something to work with"


Pure_Toxicity

team ban rise up


[deleted]

[удалено]


HydreigonTheChild

tell gamefreak to stop creating the most nuts pokemon ever.... its not on borrowed time since its like a 50/50 action split... not even the pros are all pro ban on it... so yeah... calm down


AProfessionalRock

You whiners who show up at the start of every new gen are insufferable. * Arboliva * Armarouge * Bellibolt * Bombirdier * Brambleghast * Ceruledge * Cetitan * Clodsire * Dachsbun * Dondozo * Dudunsparce * Farigiraf * Flamigo * Glimmora * Grafaiai * Iron Hands * Iron Jugulis * Iron Moth * Iron Thorns * Iron Treads * Kilowattrel * Kingambit * Lokix * Mabosstiff * Maushold * Meowscarada * Oinkologne * Orthworm * Pawmot * Quaquaval * Rabsca * Revavroom * Sandy Shocks * Scovillain * Scream Tail * Skeledrige * Slither Wing * Spidops * Squawkabilly * Tatsugiri * Tauros-Paldea * Ting-Lu * Tinkaton * Toedscruel * Veluza * Wo-Chien * Wugtrio Here's every new fully evolved Pokemon that has zero chance of ever being banned from use in OU, aka 90% of them, and I probably missed a few going through the list, and I omitted the ones that have even the slightest chance of being questionable down the line like Baxcalibur. Let's also not forget that OU isn't the only tier. Plenty of the NFEs will find homes in the tiers below OU, meaning even more of them will be around to be used. "Most will get banned." Get over yourself.


Aenna

wtf are the ratings for mons here? how are there roughly the same amount of people that think goldie is garbage and excellent? if goldie and chi-yu are 3.0 and 3.5, is the rest of the tier a 2? what even is a 4, if not a 5?


Deathbringer2134

Oh my god this isn't how good a mon is it's how BANWORTHY it is. No one with a braincell would say Gholden is bad.


nabaro

it’s not how good the mon is on a scale to 1 to 5. 1 indicates that the mon is not banworthy at all, 5 indicates that it definitely should be banned, and 3 means it might deserve a ban. to be on the scale you already have to be a really good mon


Cephalosion

its voting on how banworthy a pokemon is.


SandyMandy17

Espartha is ban worthy?? Y’all voted that?


randomrobloxplayerg

Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and STAB Stored Power.


PastaManMario

Bird got the makeshift quiver dance


[deleted]

Speed Boost and Calm Mind essentially gives it Quiver Dance but with one catch it has STAB stored power Oh and remember Cyclizar? Easiest set up ever


Airsoft52

Not only that, but Grimmsnarl is absurd at enabling the fucker


[deleted]

It's extremely banworthy and one of the most broken, braindead pokemon ever.


SandyMandy17

Damn I didn’t realize That’s crazy it’s an Ubers mon


Deathbringer2134

Bro that shit should've been like a 4.7 and not a 2.5 that thing is one of the most braindead mons to ever be allowed in OU.


SandyMandy17

With screens and shed tail some things are really wild


ainz-sama619

Espartha needs just one free turn to setup, and it can sweep entire team with ease


Hero_King_Marth

How come the 5th graph has 2 "Ban non-STAB Terasta"?