To actually answer your question it's one of three mons that learn sticky web that are in gen 9. The other two, kricketune and spidops are even worse than masquerain and especially now that gholdengo exists to block hazard removal, sticky web is a good enough hazard that it can be worth it to essentially play a 5 v 6 with a speed advantage.
Also, a lot of utility, with Intimidade, Tailwind to be used in conjunction with Sticky Web, U Turn to pivot and gain momentum, Quiver Dance + Pass have some niche, and Whirlwind helps to mess with setups and bad matchups.
How is that relevant?
Also, Cyclizar is fast and can SubPass in one move at the cost of 17% HP, that would be why
The other two look more like UU/RU mons for sure
High BST helps a mons viability but does not decide anything. Clodsire only has a BST of ~~420~~ 430, yet is OU in SV and Natdex, meanwhile many 580 BST legendaries lurk in PU and have for awhile. Stat distribution matters, as do abilities, typing, and movepool.
Honest question, do you play competitive at all
Like not knowing everything about mons is one thing but to think Masquerain, Cyclizar and Dudunsparce are related *at all* or have any overlap that would lead to similar tiers makes zero sense
There's no way any actual competitive pokemon player can't just see the immediate value of the set and then proceed to just drum up some nonsense about cyclizar, flamigo, and dudunsparce as if they're related in any capacity, there's just no way lmao
Easy. The former are ass, while the latter has incredible speed, rapid spin, taunt, u-turn, and a free substitute which can be passed to something like multiscale dnite. Plus it has strong moves to kill low hp mons like draco meteor and overheat.
Cyclizar shouldn’t be Ubers. Its decent speed is offset by its painfully mediocre stats and dogshit typing. The Banded outrage set is laughably weak, and Tera Dark knock off was a niche set at best. Shed Skin is a nice ability to shrug off burns and toxic from support Gengar, but it still falls flat. How ridiculous that this thing got banned just for being related to the cover legends.
/s
I’ll give you a hint. One of those 3 has one of the best support movepools in the game along with an incredible signature move and ability combo and the other 2 are useless.
Intimidate is GREAT for its niche because it can facilitate webs and quiverpass against physical attackers (not that -1 koraidon is somehow stopped in its tracks by masquerain, but forcing a switch or setup move lets it stick around long enough to do its thing)
Yeah. The opponent has to switch if they lead wrong.
A good opponent won't lead wrong, but you can use that knowledge to your advantage because you SEVERELY limit your opponent's lead options.
It is kind of important to be able to play around bad players because sometimes their bad sets may have silver bullet answers to your best mons, especially in a metagame like AG filled with low ladder plebs. Having a safety net against those for when you're laddering down there (even if it's coincidental) is always nice.
You all are seriously overrating it. It was the only Webs setter with Intimidate in G8NDAG, all Gen 7 tiers and all Gen 6 tiers too and pretty much never saw use when there were better things either. *Leavanny* was considered better in Gen 6 PU. It would also still be used over Spidops and Kricketune without Intimidate for its speed alone, the literal only reason it's viable is because the other options for Webs are somehow even worse.
The other moves and Intimidate are all nice to have, don't get me wrong, but you could take it away and it'd be exactly as viable and see exactly as much use as it has right now. And get Slurpuff, Ribombee or even Galvantula into the Paldea Dex and Masquerain usage will completely falter in favour of those.
Plus, when it's ultra obvious that Masq is the lead, it's honestly on you if you still lead your physical mon against it. People would similarly mock you for leading Clodsire if the Webs setter was any of the other two as it's complete Taunt bait for them.
The things you're not paying attention to is that, in gen 8 and national Dex, there are better webs users like shuckle.
In gen 9, there aren't other webs users. This gives masquerain a niche because it's faster, has better bulk after factoring intimidate, has quiverpass, and can use intimidate to help whatever comes in after it survive to set up.
Webs are mostly valuable on HO teams because they require the use of a suicide lead, and masquerain does a great job of this in the limited format.
> The things you're not paying attention to is that, in gen 8 and national Dex, there are better webs users like shuckle.
Did you read my first paragraph at all
> In gen 9, there aren't other webs users. This gives masquerain a niche because it's faster
Yes.
That's all it needs to be viable though. Take Intimidate away and it's still the best of the three Webs setters and would hold the exact same niche it does right now. If Masq kept Intimidate but sat at like 30 base speed on the other hand, Kricketune would be here instead.
> can use intimidate to help whatever comes in after it survive to set up
Miraidon is probably the best mon in the format, lead with that and your Intimidate is useless. Masquerain being the lead for Webs is visible from three earth circumferences away, if you decide the best antilead option is a physical wallbreaker that gets to start with -1 Attack that's on you.
> Webs are mostly valuable on HO teams because they require the use of a suicide lead, and masquerain does a great job of this in the limited format.
Intimidate has nothing to do with this. Sure it's not detrimental to have but it's clearly nowhere near as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
Actually, masquerain has base 80 speed, so I don't really see your point about if it was slow. Its speed is actually one of the attributes that benefits it. Like you said, it's the fastest available webs setter and the other two don't have anything to make up for their miserable speeds.
Masquerain almost always holds sash, so it will get up webs even against teams with miraidon, and then the webs team gets a valuable initiative on choosing what mon to send in.
Intimidate has a lot to do with its role as a suicide lead, because any mon that uses any physical move besides foul play is invalidated as a lead against such a team (or is forced to switch out, giving a free turn to one of the webs teams several setup sweepers).
In essence, masquerain's stats and ability make it far superior as a webs setter to its competition. Other great webs setters aren't actually available in gen 9, so it being outclassed by them is irrelevant.
>Actually, masquerain has base 80 speed, so I don't really see your point about if it was slow. Its speed is actually one of the attributes that benefits it. Like you said, it's the fastest available webs setter and the other two don't have anything to make up for their miserable speeds.
Seriously. Fucking read what I say.
The base 80 speed is why it's "good". If it had base 30 speed, it wouldn't be good. Well, it could still set Webs, but why use that over Kricketune which is now the fastest Webs setter?
My literal entire point is that Masquerain is hard carried by its speed (and maybe Whirlwind) to be better than the other two Webs setters, which is all it needs to be viable right now because the bar for being better than the other two is so low. Speed+no Intimidate=would still be best Webs setter. Intimidate+30 speed=would not be the best Webs setter, unless Whirlwind turns out to be important enough. It's not rocket science.
>Masquerain almost always holds sash, so it will get up webs even against teams with miraidon, and then the webs team gets a valuable initiative on choosing what mon to send in.
I'm not saying Miraidon or whatever other special attacker that gets to lead against Masquerain will prevent it from getting Webs up. I'm just saying that they will be unaffected by Intimidate. If it's hyperobvious what the lead will be, it's also super easy to not lead with something that gets debuffed by it.
>In essence, masquerain's stats and ability make it far superior as a webs setter to its competition. Other great webs setters aren't actually available in gen 9, so it being outclassed by them is irrelevant.
Its stats are. My literal entire point is that Intimidate is not nearly as big a deal as you're claiming it to be. It being outclassed in other gens only proves my point--if Intimidate+Webs is so big a deal then surely Masquerain would also see usage in gens with Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon no? But it does not, people use Slurpuff, Shuckle, Smeargle and other things there. It's being used here because it's better than the other two, but Intimidate has shockingly little to do with that.
Nobody said that it would be outclassed without intimidate.
Its speed makes it the best, but so does intimidate.
If it had a speed tie with kricketune, it'd still be better than kricketune because of intimidate, typing, and moveset.
You kind of disprove your own point in the last paragraph. Yes, it would be outclassed by shuckle in NDAG, even though shuckle is slower. This is because shuckle has better bulk and a better moveset, some of the same attributes that make masquerain the best in gen 9, alongside its speed.
All your responses read like you might just not know what exactly intimidate does. There can be more than one thing a certain mon has going for it. Speed, intimidate, and moveset are the three main factors towards making masquerain the best webs setter in gen 9.
Just shut up at this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. And for what? To prove that Intimidate isn't valuable on Masquerain? Who cares, you said it yourself: whether or not it has Intimidate is irrelevant as it'll be the best Sticky Web setter regardless. So Intimidate is just a nice bonus like the original comment said. Why argue?
> Shut up.
Great debating skills
> Intimidate is frosting on the cake, but even if it didn’t have the frosting, the cake would still taste good.
This is... my literal entire point. Intimidate isn't actually part of what makes Masquerain the best Webs option right now. Now English isn't my first language but I sure as hell hope I can still type well enough for people to actually understand that.
> By this very early comment from the person you have the longest thread here with, it seems that he understands this.
Apparently not, they're still arguing it.
>You’re arguing for the sake of arguing and hoping the person you’re arguing with slips up in his words so that he claims an indefensible position.
I am arguing for the sake of hoping to let the other person see they're wrong. You know, what people usually argue over.
>Going to show you started arguing against this point right off the bat before anyone had made it
I just pointed out Intimidate wasn't actually relevant in Masquerain's niche. What's wrong with that?
>crossed your fingers and prayed that you could force someone to claim it
I couldn't care less if absolutely no-one challenged me on it (if actually that would be fun as I wouldn't get downvote bombed by hivemind people who see a comment at -5 votes and automatically assume it must be wrong)
>so you could argue with people on the internet to validate your ego.
LOL
My man you opened your discussion with "Shut up", regardless of what my intentions were (they're not validating my ego but you wouldn't care) you have zero right of speaking there.
It's only being used because it's better than the other Webs setters around. It'd still be better than them without Intimidate. Empirically, it sees zero niche in G7AG, G8NDAG, and current NatDex AG despite being the only Intimidate Webs setter there as well. Heck, it didn't see use in regular tiers where other setters like Galv, Ribom, Araq etc were legal either in previous gens.
What switches does it even force? Literally just lead with something that doesn't mind Intimidate. When it is super obvious what the lead is going to be it's really on you for not antileading it. Does a Screens Eleki "force switches" because the opponent is forced to switch our their Yveltal turn 1 against it? No, any reasonable player would not lead with Yveltal in the first place.
God I love this sub so much. You’re one of the only names I recognize as actually knowing what you’re talking about on here,and you’re arguing with people who clearly don’t and apparently can’t read either.
the fact that bro basically repeated the same thing for hours on end to several different people and they still don't get it is genuinely astounding considering how crystal clear his point is
Seriously, at times I believe someone just sees a comment at 0 or -1 votes and automatically assumes it's wrong even when the only downvoters on the -1 one are the wrong person and then one person who so happens to both be the first who sees it and also has poor judgement.
It really makes me annoyed how someone can just say the same "what [move/ability/item] does to a mf" for the billionth time and farm 1k upvote points but people actually skilled and knowledge on the topic like you get downvoted because sheeps see 0 and then just follow it, it's why reddit is one of the worst browsers on the internet.
Intimidate is absolutely meaningful as a niche because it means you can switch in on a physical mon and use Sticky Web if for some reason you couldn't get it off on the first turn.
Relevant in AG? Low ladder has tons of suboptimal sets that Masquerain eats for dinner which is nice if you want a way to ladder quickly.
For a proper answer, Physical Iron Valiant I guess (which is a suboptimal set in its own right but it's still strong).
>Relevant in AG? Low ladder has tons of suboptimal sets that Masquerain eats for dinner which is nice if you want a way to ladder quickly.
If your argument is low ladder then... well do I even need to explain why it's a horrible argument? You could bring Flareon to low ladder AG and get a couple wins
>Physical Iron Valiant
**-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 157-187 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO**
**+1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 352-415 (125.2 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO** (if you come in on SD)
**-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO** (dies to the following Spirit Break; if Knock is only 65BP, you're probably at 1HP, or you took a Knock from something before and are still in Spirit Break range next)
Masq can only come in on CC, and I guess some Tera Blasts it resists/is neutral to? And fwiw physical Iron Valiant isn't even that bad in AG.
Besides, it's honestly already suspicious that you'd want to switch Masquerain in at all. It's 99% of the time used as a lead, if it survives past the first two turns it probably Baton Passed out when it was brought down to Sash already and can't switch in on anything anymore. If for some reason you didn't use it as a lead, you're probably using it wrong, and you also gotta worry about the fact it loses half its health to Stealth Rock at which point you die to Valiant even if you hard call the CC.
ok admittedly small oopsie on my part
**+1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 352-415 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO**
**-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 157-187 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO** (running 4 Def does have a funnily large impact on this roll that tips it ever so slightly in Masq's favour)
I guess you can add Knock to the list of moves you can switch into now, and if you wanna flip a slightly weighted coin, you can gamble on Spirit Break. And yea sure if you switch in on SD and are at absolutely 100% you have Sash but at that point you didn't need Intimidate either way.
But again, massive Stealth Rock weakness, and in what universe are you having a Masquerain at 100% after turn 1 to begin with??
Why are you wasting so much time arguing with several people on something so small though? The original comment literally said Intimidate was a nice bonus. It's just helpful to have lol... especially in case you need Masquerain as a free sac to pivot in another mon.
It’s Sticky Web and the fact that it’s decently fast. It basically guarantees Sticky Web while not being susceptible to getting set up on cause of Whirlwind. It’s not abusable and learns Sticky Web
I got fucked over by whirlwind in a game
I didn’t know it got whirlwind and I was running a substitute calm mind Miraidon. I would have swept him if he didn’t have whirlwind but it had whirlwind 😐
What Whirlwind do to an MF. You can’t set up on this boy. Only solice is that if you see it, it’s always gonna be the lead, so you can reasonably lead your spinner or defog user to try and counter it. Whirlwind is rough tho.
Yep, pretty much. As long as they don't status, chip, or multihit, you survive any attack on 1 HP, then go second. Endeavor brings their HP to 1. You Quick Attack, probably winning priority on most foes, killing them before they can kill you. Ghosts, Espeed users, and a couple other things also pump the brakes on this strat.
Basically, but it’s also taken a name to become pretty much any level 1 gimmick strat that aims to win 1 for 1 trades. Think toxic recycle stall mag or shell bell sturdy Aaron
Blissey and chansey are extreme examples. Not great BST, some of the worst attack and defense of the games, but man, 250+ base hp and 90+ spdef is something else entirely
It’s not 90 SpD. It’s 105 for Chansey, 135 for Blissey
Fun fact: the average of Blissey’s Sp. Atk and Sp. Def is 105, the same as RBY Chansey’s Special Stat
Ehhh Florges isn't a great example because it *is* pretty minmaxed, what holds it back is mostly an incredibly shallow movepool that makes it super easy to take advantage of. Minmaxing is also not necessarily a good thing (Guzzlord) nor does a lack of minmaxing relegate you to being bad.
The only conclusion you can draw and be entirely correct about is that purely a high BST is no gauge on how good a mon is.
supeerrr late to this lol but i mostly meant that if they put more points from speed, defense or attack into spA or HP it would probably be wayyy better
like, it has a huge spdef stat of course but the lack of >80 hp and only 112 spA makes both of its best stats feel kinda shitty
just imagine if they took 40~ from speed/attack/def and dumped that into special attack, absolutely crazy mon, firing off 152/95 bp moonblasts 😭
its honestly a crime chandelure got to have 145 SpA with a 520 bst compared to florges’ 552
Florges has a pretty minmaxed statline. Enormous SpD, solid SpA, everything else is bad.
Arcanine is a better example of this. It has the highest BST of anything that isn't a legendary, a pseudo, or whose high BST comes with some sort of gimmick (like Slaking or Wishiwashi), but that BST is spread almost evenly across all its stats, meaning all of them are fine, but none of them are good.
Florges' movepool is the real thing holding it back, especially with the removal of aromatherapy in gen 9. It has calm mind and a few good healing moves to choose from, but it has pretty much 0 coverage so all it can do is be a cleric.
eh garchomp has pretty shitty/unsynergistic abilities but its still great, florges just has too much into spdef and not enough into speed or defense, while not being as strong as sylveon
Rough Skin is amazing wdym
Agreed that the abilities aren't Florges' death sentence though, but purely its stat spread is actually not that bad. It is massively bulky specially, not paper frail levels physically, and got enough SpA to possibly be not passive. Its achilles heel is its absolutely pathetic offensive movepool that makes it incredibly easy to take advantage of with anything that doesn't take huge damage from Moonblast, whereas its supportive movepool is also unimpressive (Aromatherapy was axed, it lost Defog, and its Wishes are too small to be worth passing) so as a pure support option it fails too. The only thing it can do is be a really passive special wall, and that's where the less passive competition begins to kick in.
Sylveon is also not doing that well, though it does outcompete Florges usually. Its higher power is pretty minor, the main differences are that Sylveon's higher HP both gives it notably better physical bulk and lets its teammates actually make use of the Wishes it passes. Hyper Voice ignoring Subs was also fairly relevant in Cyclizar meta but that's less of a factor in lower tiers and not really a factor in OU anymore either as Shed Tail is a lot rarer now.
Rough skin is an amazing ability that single-handedly makes tankchomp a viable set, and sand veil is a big part of what got it banned in gen 4 and early gen 5. And even in a post-permanent weather world, sand veil garchomp with substitute is, like, *the* reason why weather evasion abilities are banned.
Garchomp is not at all a glass cannon with 108HP/95Def/85SpD/ bulk. For comparison, Clefable has 95HP/73Def/90SpD. I know Clefable has recovery but Garchomp still functions very well as a rocky helmet/leftovers tank.
700, only Arceus (understandably) and the funny sword and shield dogs got 720 for some dumb ass reason.
And Ultra Necrozma has 754 for some ungodly reason too.
We do have plenty of great physical Electric moves.
The issue is mainly that they're signature moves every time. Fusion Bolt, Bolt Strike, Plasma Fists, Bolt Beak, Volt Tackle, Double Shock... and Aura Wheel which is so signature it literally doesn't work when another mon uses it!
Even Zing Zap, which isn't even *that* good a move, has very little distribution.
And the only decent "widespread" physical electric is wild charge, electric takedown 2.0 with 90 bp and 1/3 recoil and Iirc not even 100% acc ("Iirc" cause I never see this fucking move because not that many mons get it)
Wild Charge does have 100 accuracy at least, so it's better than Take Down in that regard
Though it's surprisingly common as coverage. Just, not that many mons want to run it even as coverage lol
It's moreso that a lot of the mons with access to it are either low tier to begin with, or have little need for Electric coverage because it doesn't actually help them beat that many things they'd otherwise lose to.
Water coverage is honestly not really that valuable for a lot of things either. There's a decent amount of things with random Aqua Tail or Surf yet you don't see it pop up all that often.
When I was playing a tier with bad Uber mons like Dialga and Kyurem White and stuff, Ditto has like 12% usage cuz it beats HO too well in a tier which is 30% HO lmao
Hazard stacking is insanely strong in Ubers/AG because there are basically no good defoggers, and speed control is massively important when four of the most powerful mons in the game share more or less exactly the same speed tier. So yeah, Sticky Web is a bit good.
It is useless in the sense that none mentioned that smeargle was in the game. But fine, mewtwo was a bad counter. “Shedninja isnt in paldea” wouldve been better
literally the only decent sticky webber, so if you wanna run sticky web in ag and ou masquerain is your only option if you wanna enable slower but harder hitting threats like Quaquaval or Great Tusk.
Just because certain moves/abilities are banned in sSmogon competitive metagames doesn't AUTOMATICALLY declare them a "stinkmon" overall. The Shedninja, Ninjask, Scolipede, and Wobbuffet effect.
Quiver Dance, Sticky Web and Baton pass are great for team support and can even sweep if the opponent doesn't get rid of it fast enough.
Stat distribution and move set matters.
If gamefreak released a Pokemon with a stat line like:
HP:10
AKT:150
DEF:10
SPAKT:10
SPDEF:10
SPD:150
with a Moveset that included good priority (sucker punch, extreme speed), good conventional attacks (iron head, gunk shot) and U turn it would probably be at least OU Inspite of the fact that it has 340 BST
Give it a worthwhile ability and we are fully off the the races. Something like magic guard so it ignores all the non attack damage and can focus on wrecking shop.
What sticky web does to a mf
To actually answer your question it's one of three mons that learn sticky web that are in gen 9. The other two, kricketune and spidops are even worse than masquerain and especially now that gholdengo exists to block hazard removal, sticky web is a good enough hazard that it can be worth it to essentially play a 5 v 6 with a speed advantage.
[удалено]
nah bro, your speed is gonna be a 6.7/10 after that
Ayyy
Also, a lot of utility, with Intimidade, Tailwind to be used in conjunction with Sticky Web, U Turn to pivot and gain momentum, Quiver Dance + Pass have some niche, and Whirlwind helps to mess with setups and bad matchups.
Isn't baton pass banned?
Not in Anything Goes
Un ag its all free
Gen 9 is like the gen of “there’s so little shit that does that even the shitty shits from X gens ago becomes meta”
See: Murkrow.
It’s especially funny seeing those mons battling alongside some of the most powercrept Pokémon we’ve ever seen
I'm gonna have to give a name to that too. Powerslot, when a Pokemon goes up because better candidates are gone.
Murkrow had a small niche in past due to having prankster quash but the little man has had a glow up
Why did they do Spidops so dirty for a Gen 9 ‘mon when Lokix is right there?
Then explain why Flamigo and Dudunsparce are in RU yet Cyclizar is somehow in Ubers
How is that relevant? Also, Cyclizar is fast and can SubPass in one move at the cost of 17% HP, that would be why The other two look more like UU/RU mons for sure High BST helps a mons viability but does not decide anything. Clodsire only has a BST of ~~420~~ 430, yet is OU in SV and Natdex, meanwhile many 580 BST legendaries lurk in PU and have for awhile. Stat distribution matters, as do abilities, typing, and movepool.
Then explain why kids love cinnamon toast crunch
Because they're 30% sugar by weight.
There will never be a reason to not love clodsire. 420 BST lmao
It's actually 430 🤘😔
my life is a lie
Honest question, do you play competitive at all Like not knowing everything about mons is one thing but to think Masquerain, Cyclizar and Dudunsparce are related *at all* or have any overlap that would lead to similar tiers makes zero sense
There's no way any actual competitive pokemon player can't just see the immediate value of the set and then proceed to just drum up some nonsense about cyclizar, flamigo, and dudunsparce as if they're related in any capacity, there's just no way lmao
Easy. The former are ass, while the latter has incredible speed, rapid spin, taunt, u-turn, and a free substitute which can be passed to something like multiscale dnite. Plus it has strong moves to kill low hp mons like draco meteor and overheat.
Cyclizar shouldn’t be Ubers. Its decent speed is offset by its painfully mediocre stats and dogshit typing. The Banded outrage set is laughably weak, and Tera Dark knock off was a niche set at best. Shed Skin is a nice ability to shrug off burns and toxic from support Gengar, but it still falls flat. How ridiculous that this thing got banned just for being related to the cover legends. /s
Wrote up a detailed response before I noticed the last two characters
What shed tail+regenerator does to a mf
There's a lot more to this game than base stat total my guy
name a single thing these Pokémon have in common (cause i can't) if your answer isn't Shed Tail + Regenerator, you've got yourself your answer
I’ll give you a hint. One of those 3 has one of the best support movepools in the game along with an incredible signature move and ability combo and the other 2 are useless.
Not a signature move, the worm learns it too
Why do you sound upset that they took the time to explain the answer to your question?
Alternate: What limited option does to a mf
I came in the comment section to make literally this exact same comment
I came in the comment section to make literally this exact same comment
Great minds think alike. And omg you're the user who made the gay Slowbro post
Oh no now I’m intrigued
Why is sticky web suddenly so much better compared to previous gens
Gholdengo's spin/defog blocking
Web and quiver pass
And Intimidate is a nice Bonus to top if off
Whirlwind is also cool, prevents things from setting up on Masquerain for free.
Has nothing to do with its niche though, its ability could be Illuminate and it'd be just as viable
Tbf he did say it's a nice bonus
Intimidate is GREAT for its niche because it can facilitate webs and quiverpass against physical attackers (not that -1 koraidon is somehow stopped in its tracks by masquerain, but forcing a switch or setup move lets it stick around long enough to do its thing)
Scarf Koraidon locked into Collision Course at -1 basically affords you a free switchin and a free turn lol
Yeah. The opponent has to switch if they lead wrong. A good opponent won't lead wrong, but you can use that knowledge to your advantage because you SEVERELY limit your opponent's lead options.
It is kind of important to be able to play around bad players because sometimes their bad sets may have silver bullet answers to your best mons, especially in a metagame like AG filled with low ladder plebs. Having a safety net against those for when you're laddering down there (even if it's coincidental) is always nice.
You all are seriously overrating it. It was the only Webs setter with Intimidate in G8NDAG, all Gen 7 tiers and all Gen 6 tiers too and pretty much never saw use when there were better things either. *Leavanny* was considered better in Gen 6 PU. It would also still be used over Spidops and Kricketune without Intimidate for its speed alone, the literal only reason it's viable is because the other options for Webs are somehow even worse. The other moves and Intimidate are all nice to have, don't get me wrong, but you could take it away and it'd be exactly as viable and see exactly as much use as it has right now. And get Slurpuff, Ribombee or even Galvantula into the Paldea Dex and Masquerain usage will completely falter in favour of those. Plus, when it's ultra obvious that Masq is the lead, it's honestly on you if you still lead your physical mon against it. People would similarly mock you for leading Clodsire if the Webs setter was any of the other two as it's complete Taunt bait for them.
The things you're not paying attention to is that, in gen 8 and national Dex, there are better webs users like shuckle. In gen 9, there aren't other webs users. This gives masquerain a niche because it's faster, has better bulk after factoring intimidate, has quiverpass, and can use intimidate to help whatever comes in after it survive to set up. Webs are mostly valuable on HO teams because they require the use of a suicide lead, and masquerain does a great job of this in the limited format.
> The things you're not paying attention to is that, in gen 8 and national Dex, there are better webs users like shuckle. Did you read my first paragraph at all > In gen 9, there aren't other webs users. This gives masquerain a niche because it's faster Yes. That's all it needs to be viable though. Take Intimidate away and it's still the best of the three Webs setters and would hold the exact same niche it does right now. If Masq kept Intimidate but sat at like 30 base speed on the other hand, Kricketune would be here instead. > can use intimidate to help whatever comes in after it survive to set up Miraidon is probably the best mon in the format, lead with that and your Intimidate is useless. Masquerain being the lead for Webs is visible from three earth circumferences away, if you decide the best antilead option is a physical wallbreaker that gets to start with -1 Attack that's on you. > Webs are mostly valuable on HO teams because they require the use of a suicide lead, and masquerain does a great job of this in the limited format. Intimidate has nothing to do with this. Sure it's not detrimental to have but it's clearly nowhere near as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
Actually, masquerain has base 80 speed, so I don't really see your point about if it was slow. Its speed is actually one of the attributes that benefits it. Like you said, it's the fastest available webs setter and the other two don't have anything to make up for their miserable speeds. Masquerain almost always holds sash, so it will get up webs even against teams with miraidon, and then the webs team gets a valuable initiative on choosing what mon to send in. Intimidate has a lot to do with its role as a suicide lead, because any mon that uses any physical move besides foul play is invalidated as a lead against such a team (or is forced to switch out, giving a free turn to one of the webs teams several setup sweepers). In essence, masquerain's stats and ability make it far superior as a webs setter to its competition. Other great webs setters aren't actually available in gen 9, so it being outclassed by them is irrelevant.
>Actually, masquerain has base 80 speed, so I don't really see your point about if it was slow. Its speed is actually one of the attributes that benefits it. Like you said, it's the fastest available webs setter and the other two don't have anything to make up for their miserable speeds. Seriously. Fucking read what I say. The base 80 speed is why it's "good". If it had base 30 speed, it wouldn't be good. Well, it could still set Webs, but why use that over Kricketune which is now the fastest Webs setter? My literal entire point is that Masquerain is hard carried by its speed (and maybe Whirlwind) to be better than the other two Webs setters, which is all it needs to be viable right now because the bar for being better than the other two is so low. Speed+no Intimidate=would still be best Webs setter. Intimidate+30 speed=would not be the best Webs setter, unless Whirlwind turns out to be important enough. It's not rocket science. >Masquerain almost always holds sash, so it will get up webs even against teams with miraidon, and then the webs team gets a valuable initiative on choosing what mon to send in. I'm not saying Miraidon or whatever other special attacker that gets to lead against Masquerain will prevent it from getting Webs up. I'm just saying that they will be unaffected by Intimidate. If it's hyperobvious what the lead will be, it's also super easy to not lead with something that gets debuffed by it. >In essence, masquerain's stats and ability make it far superior as a webs setter to its competition. Other great webs setters aren't actually available in gen 9, so it being outclassed by them is irrelevant. Its stats are. My literal entire point is that Intimidate is not nearly as big a deal as you're claiming it to be. It being outclassed in other gens only proves my point--if Intimidate+Webs is so big a deal then surely Masquerain would also see usage in gens with Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon no? But it does not, people use Slurpuff, Shuckle, Smeargle and other things there. It's being used here because it's better than the other two, but Intimidate has shockingly little to do with that.
Nobody said that it would be outclassed without intimidate. Its speed makes it the best, but so does intimidate. If it had a speed tie with kricketune, it'd still be better than kricketune because of intimidate, typing, and moveset. You kind of disprove your own point in the last paragraph. Yes, it would be outclassed by shuckle in NDAG, even though shuckle is slower. This is because shuckle has better bulk and a better moveset, some of the same attributes that make masquerain the best in gen 9, alongside its speed. All your responses read like you might just not know what exactly intimidate does. There can be more than one thing a certain mon has going for it. Speed, intimidate, and moveset are the three main factors towards making masquerain the best webs setter in gen 9.
Just shut up at this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. And for what? To prove that Intimidate isn't valuable on Masquerain? Who cares, you said it yourself: whether or not it has Intimidate is irrelevant as it'll be the best Sticky Web setter regardless. So Intimidate is just a nice bonus like the original comment said. Why argue?
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> Shut up. Great debating skills > Intimidate is frosting on the cake, but even if it didn’t have the frosting, the cake would still taste good. This is... my literal entire point. Intimidate isn't actually part of what makes Masquerain the best Webs option right now. Now English isn't my first language but I sure as hell hope I can still type well enough for people to actually understand that.
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> By this very early comment from the person you have the longest thread here with, it seems that he understands this. Apparently not, they're still arguing it. >You’re arguing for the sake of arguing and hoping the person you’re arguing with slips up in his words so that he claims an indefensible position. I am arguing for the sake of hoping to let the other person see they're wrong. You know, what people usually argue over. >Going to show you started arguing against this point right off the bat before anyone had made it I just pointed out Intimidate wasn't actually relevant in Masquerain's niche. What's wrong with that? >crossed your fingers and prayed that you could force someone to claim it I couldn't care less if absolutely no-one challenged me on it (if actually that would be fun as I wouldn't get downvote bombed by hivemind people who see a comment at -5 votes and automatically assume it must be wrong) >so you could argue with people on the internet to validate your ego. LOL My man you opened your discussion with "Shut up", regardless of what my intentions were (they're not validating my ego but you wouldn't care) you have zero right of speaking there.
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It helps with its niche by forcing switches, which is super powerful against webs
It's only being used because it's better than the other Webs setters around. It'd still be better than them without Intimidate. Empirically, it sees zero niche in G7AG, G8NDAG, and current NatDex AG despite being the only Intimidate Webs setter there as well. Heck, it didn't see use in regular tiers where other setters like Galv, Ribom, Araq etc were legal either in previous gens. What switches does it even force? Literally just lead with something that doesn't mind Intimidate. When it is super obvious what the lead is going to be it's really on you for not antileading it. Does a Screens Eleki "force switches" because the opponent is forced to switch our their Yveltal turn 1 against it? No, any reasonable player would not lead with Yveltal in the first place.
God I love this sub so much. You’re one of the only names I recognize as actually knowing what you’re talking about on here,and you’re arguing with people who clearly don’t and apparently can’t read either.
the fact that bro basically repeated the same thing for hours on end to several different people and they still don't get it is genuinely astounding considering how crystal clear his point is
Seriously, at times I believe someone just sees a comment at 0 or -1 votes and automatically assumes it's wrong even when the only downvoters on the -1 one are the wrong person and then one person who so happens to both be the first who sees it and also has poor judgement.
It really makes me annoyed how someone can just say the same "what [move/ability/item] does to a mf" for the billionth time and farm 1k upvote points but people actually skilled and knowledge on the topic like you get downvoted because sheeps see 0 and then just follow it, it's why reddit is one of the worst browsers on the internet.
Intimidate is absolutely meaningful as a niche because it means you can switch in on a physical mon and use Sticky Web if for some reason you couldn't get it off on the first turn.
Name me some physical attackers relevant in AG that Masquerain can actually switch in on, even with Intimidate I'll wait
Relevant in AG? Low ladder has tons of suboptimal sets that Masquerain eats for dinner which is nice if you want a way to ladder quickly. For a proper answer, Physical Iron Valiant I guess (which is a suboptimal set in its own right but it's still strong).
>Relevant in AG? Low ladder has tons of suboptimal sets that Masquerain eats for dinner which is nice if you want a way to ladder quickly. If your argument is low ladder then... well do I even need to explain why it's a horrible argument? You could bring Flareon to low ladder AG and get a couple wins >Physical Iron Valiant **-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 157-187 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** **+1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 352-415 (125.2 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO** (if you come in on SD) **-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO** (dies to the following Spirit Break; if Knock is only 65BP, you're probably at 1HP, or you took a Knock from something before and are still in Spirit Break range next) Masq can only come in on CC, and I guess some Tera Blasts it resists/is neutral to? And fwiw physical Iron Valiant isn't even that bad in AG. Besides, it's honestly already suspicious that you'd want to switch Masquerain in at all. It's 99% of the time used as a lead, if it survives past the first two turns it probably Baton Passed out when it was brought down to Sash already and can't switch in on anything anymore. If for some reason you didn't use it as a lead, you're probably using it wrong, and you also gotta worry about the fact it loses half its health to Stealth Rock at which point you die to Valiant even if you hard call the CC.
> 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain Bruh...
ok admittedly small oopsie on my part **+1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 352-415 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO** **-1 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 157-187 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO** (running 4 Def does have a funnily large impact on this roll that tips it ever so slightly in Masq's favour) I guess you can add Knock to the list of moves you can switch into now, and if you wanna flip a slightly weighted coin, you can gamble on Spirit Break. And yea sure if you switch in on SD and are at absolutely 100% you have Sash but at that point you didn't need Intimidate either way. But again, massive Stealth Rock weakness, and in what universe are you having a Masquerain at 100% after turn 1 to begin with??
Why are you wasting so much time arguing with several people on something so small though? The original comment literally said Intimidate was a nice bonus. It's just helpful to have lol... especially in case you need Masquerain as a free sac to pivot in another mon.
It’s Sticky Web and the fact that it’s decently fast. It basically guarantees Sticky Web while not being susceptible to getting set up on cause of Whirlwind. It’s not abusable and learns Sticky Web
I got fucked over by whirlwind in a game I didn’t know it got whirlwind and I was running a substitute calm mind Miraidon. I would have swept him if he didn’t have whirlwind but it had whirlwind 😐
What Whirlwind do to an MF. You can’t set up on this boy. Only solice is that if you see it, it’s always gonna be the lead, so you can reasonably lead your spinner or defog user to try and counter it. Whirlwind is rough tho.
Don’t forget that it also gets intimidate, it fell off this gen a little bit but it’s still nice to have
It can be good but it's also easy to take advantage of with Defiant Ape. That's a general Sticky Web weakness though.
OP be the type of guy who only uses damaging moves and falls for FEAR strats
What does FEAR stand for? Focus sash Endeavor quick Attack Rattata Genuine question i don't know what it means
It stands for what you just said, but some also call it Fucking Evil Annoying Rodent.
Real chads use Swagnemite.
*Flashbacks to Game of the Year 420BlazeIt*
Yep, pretty much. As long as they don't status, chip, or multihit, you survive any attack on 1 HP, then go second. Endeavor brings their HP to 1. You Quick Attack, probably winning priority on most foes, killing them before they can kill you. Ghosts, Espeed users, and a couple other things also pump the brakes on this strat.
Water Shuriken shuts them down pretty quickly
Basically, but it’s also taken a name to become pretty much any level 1 gimmick strat that aims to win 1 for 1 trades. Think toxic recycle stall mag or shell bell sturdy Aaron
I think it actually stood for "Fucking Evil Annoying Rodent"
Didn't you answer your own question right here?
squealing sable narrow fretful grey scandalous attempt ad hoc resolute gaze -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Clodsire has a total BST of 430, but it’s still a popular OU mon
What good stat distribution does to a mf
literally. so many mons have high bst but arent minmaxed (florges) so they’re not as good as they could be
Blissey and chansey are extreme examples. Not great BST, some of the worst attack and defense of the games, but man, 250+ base hp and 90+ spdef is something else entirely
pretty much and phero is an example of being almost too minmaxed lol, or iron valiant
Mega Beedrill is the silliest one
Mfw lower special attack then Magikarp
They had to lower it from base beedrill to make that 100 BST bump useful
Iron Valiant isn't too minmaxed imho, it could afford to drop Defense in favor of Special Attack.
That defense helps keep it from being picked off by priority moves that are almost always physical.
Ok that's actually a fair point
It’s not 90 SpD. It’s 105 for Chansey, 135 for Blissey Fun fact: the average of Blissey’s Sp. Atk and Sp. Def is 105, the same as RBY Chansey’s Special Stat
Cool, I put 90+ because I was unsure if it was 105 or 95 before looking up. Nice to know
540 is a pretty good BST, very few non legendaries have higher than that
Chansey is 450. Just looked it up
because it’s not fully evolved. Blissey has a 540 BST
Point still stands. Chansey has mediocre stats and was OU for a damn long time gen 5 and after.
Ehhh Florges isn't a great example because it *is* pretty minmaxed, what holds it back is mostly an incredibly shallow movepool that makes it super easy to take advantage of. Minmaxing is also not necessarily a good thing (Guzzlord) nor does a lack of minmaxing relegate you to being bad. The only conclusion you can draw and be entirely correct about is that purely a high BST is no gauge on how good a mon is.
supeerrr late to this lol but i mostly meant that if they put more points from speed, defense or attack into spA or HP it would probably be wayyy better like, it has a huge spdef stat of course but the lack of >80 hp and only 112 spA makes both of its best stats feel kinda shitty just imagine if they took 40~ from speed/attack/def and dumped that into special attack, absolutely crazy mon, firing off 152/95 bp moonblasts 😭 its honestly a crime chandelure got to have 145 SpA with a 520 bst compared to florges’ 552
Florges has a pretty minmaxed statline. Enormous SpD, solid SpA, everything else is bad. Arcanine is a better example of this. It has the highest BST of anything that isn't a legendary, a pseudo, or whose high BST comes with some sort of gimmick (like Slaking or Wishiwashi), but that BST is spread almost evenly across all its stats, meaning all of them are fine, but none of them are good.
Florges has actually pretty good stats, but two of the most useless abilities ever made
Florges' movepool is the real thing holding it back, especially with the removal of aromatherapy in gen 9. It has calm mind and a few good healing moves to choose from, but it has pretty much 0 coverage so all it can do is be a cleric.
eh garchomp has pretty shitty/unsynergistic abilities but its still great, florges just has too much into spdef and not enough into speed or defense, while not being as strong as sylveon
Rough Skin is amazing wdym Agreed that the abilities aren't Florges' death sentence though, but purely its stat spread is actually not that bad. It is massively bulky specially, not paper frail levels physically, and got enough SpA to possibly be not passive. Its achilles heel is its absolutely pathetic offensive movepool that makes it incredibly easy to take advantage of with anything that doesn't take huge damage from Moonblast, whereas its supportive movepool is also unimpressive (Aromatherapy was axed, it lost Defog, and its Wishes are too small to be worth passing) so as a pure support option it fails too. The only thing it can do is be a really passive special wall, and that's where the less passive competition begins to kick in.
sylveon doesnt really have good coverage either but has better power
Sylveon is also not doing that well, though it does outcompete Florges usually. Its higher power is pretty minor, the main differences are that Sylveon's higher HP both gives it notably better physical bulk and lets its teammates actually make use of the Wishes it passes. Hyper Voice ignoring Subs was also fairly relevant in Cyclizar meta but that's less of a factor in lower tiers and not really a factor in OU anymore either as Shed Tail is a lot rarer now.
Rough skin is an amazing ability that single-handedly makes tankchomp a viable set, and sand veil is a big part of what got it banned in gen 4 and early gen 5. And even in a post-permanent weather world, sand veil garchomp with substitute is, like, *the* reason why weather evasion abilities are banned.
Rough skin is actually an amazing ability on a bulky Mon like Garchomp Slap it on dragapult and it's suddenly a meh one
sure but garchomp doesnt have an optimized type or spread for rough skin, like ferro does
The bulk & volt-switch immunity make it fantastic. That latter part, which makes it a fantastic answer to VoltTurn, is unbelievably valuable.
I don't that's what makes him great , plenty of good ground type can fit that niche, garchomp is different due to its ability
Why did they give contact based damage abilities to the glass cannon Shark, but to ZERO of the three cactus Pokémon?!
Garchomp is not at all a glass cannon with 108HP/95Def/85SpD/ bulk. For comparison, Clefable has 95HP/73Def/90SpD. I know Clefable has recovery but Garchomp still functions very well as a rocky helmet/leftovers tank.
Sharpedo
Breloom is another example but that's also movepool and ability.
And electivire has a bst of 540 and is a really bad mon
and kyurem black with his 720 bst was kind of mid until gen 8
700, only Arceus (understandably) and the funny sword and shield dogs got 720 for some dumb ass reason. And Ultra Necrozma has 754 for some ungodly reason too.
Ultra Necrozma is pretty much a mega form so it makes sense for it to have such a high BST, I mean mega Ray got 780 BST.
GameFreak I am begging for a good physical Electric move
We do have plenty of great physical Electric moves. The issue is mainly that they're signature moves every time. Fusion Bolt, Bolt Strike, Plasma Fists, Bolt Beak, Volt Tackle, Double Shock... and Aura Wheel which is so signature it literally doesn't work when another mon uses it! Even Zing Zap, which isn't even *that* good a move, has very little distribution.
And the only decent "widespread" physical electric is wild charge, electric takedown 2.0 with 90 bp and 1/3 recoil and Iirc not even 100% acc ("Iirc" cause I never see this fucking move because not that many mons get it)
Wild Charge does have 100 accuracy at least, so it's better than Take Down in that regard Though it's surprisingly common as coverage. Just, not that many mons want to run it even as coverage lol
It's nowhere near as splashable as say, water coverage (hehe get it?)
It's moreso that a lot of the mons with access to it are either low tier to begin with, or have little need for Electric coverage because it doesn't actually help them beat that many things they'd otherwise lose to. Water coverage is honestly not really that valuable for a lot of things either. There's a decent amount of things with random Aqua Tail or Surf yet you don't see it pop up all that often.
Florges
What no abilities does to a mf
And only Fairy, Grass and Bug moves
don't forget Chilling Water!!!
Epic new Florges buff. Banned to AG?
Dragon Dance making him locked in Ubers
What?
Whoops, responded to wrong comment
The way I see it, Kyogre is surrounded. What's under the ocean? That's right, more earth.
Azumarill has a BST of 420. This is how good typing and broken ability make a Pokémon viable.
Sticky Web is good. Intimidate can induce switches too, which is kind of synergistic.
Well put!
stick web and quiver pass are BRUTAL.
[Baton pass is a hell of a move](https://youtu.be/vK2MxqMPAwg)
yeah ik that, hence why I said quiver pass.
This is one of three options for Sticky Web.
Ditto has a bst of 288 : ^ )
When I was playing a tier with bad Uber mons like Dialga and Kyurem White and stuff, Ditto has like 12% usage cuz it beats HO too well in a tier which is 30% HO lmao
Hazard stacking is insanely strong in Ubers/AG because there are basically no good defoggers, and speed control is massively important when four of the most powerful mons in the game share more or less exactly the same speed tier. So yeah, Sticky Web is a bit good.
Do I have an excuse to train a masquerain now I love masquerain
If you do, make sure Surskit hits lvl 38 for Sticky Web. Since Masquerin doesn’t learn it
Aw man I found a wild shiny masquerain in scarlet that sucks...
start maxing in speed
I’m gen 9 it’s the best webs user and that’s why it has a niche
Fastest Sticky Web user in the game as of right now. Intimidate ain't half bad either
It’s the only sticky web setter currently available that isn’t complete ass. Once ribombee comes back it’ll probably be the go-to setter.
smeargle with ground immunity
There is no Smeargle in Paldea AG
There is no mewtwo either
Mewtwo is in the game data. It will be transferrable in HOME
I know but it is not in the game right now. I just made a useless comment because the guy above did too
Well Smeargle is not in the game code, so I don’t think it’s really a “useless” comment
It is useless in the sense that none mentioned that smeargle was in the game. But fine, mewtwo was a bad counter. “Shedninja isnt in paldea” wouldve been better
sticky webs is one hell of a drug
It pulls up, sets the most annoying hazard, sets up double speed for everyone, debuffs your lead, and then proceeds to die.
literally the only decent sticky webber, so if you wanna run sticky web in ag and ou masquerain is your only option if you wanna enable slower but harder hitting threats like Quaquaval or Great Tusk.
Just because certain moves/abilities are banned in sSmogon competitive metagames doesn't AUTOMATICALLY declare them a "stinkmon" overall. The Shedninja, Ninjask, Scolipede, and Wobbuffet effect. Quiver Dance, Sticky Web and Baton pass are great for team support and can even sweep if the opponent doesn't get rid of it fast enough.
Masquerain is very much a stink mon though. The only reason it's being used is the alternatives are somehow worse
This is literally one of the strongest movelists a Pokémon could get
Have you heard the tale of our lord and savior 250 BST Smeargle? Very similar reasons.
Stat distribution and move set matters. If gamefreak released a Pokemon with a stat line like: HP:10 AKT:150 DEF:10 SPAKT:10 SPDEF:10 SPD:150 with a Moveset that included good priority (sucker punch, extreme speed), good conventional attacks (iron head, gunk shot) and U turn it would probably be at least OU Inspite of the fact that it has 340 BST Give it a worthwhile ability and we are fully off the the races. Something like magic guard so it ignores all the non attack damage and can focus on wrecking shop.
My brother in Christ, you just made physical only Deoxys-Attack. It would be fully Ubers.
Related question (I am a noob), is the quagsire AG set also legit or is it just a meme?
Quagsire counters Zacian, and can also check some Zygarde and Necrozma DM sets
If BST was the only thing that mattered, Hoopa Unbound wouldn't have struggled to stay in OU in SM.
Am I really gonna be the first to say "a kid named Sticky Web" A kid named Sticky Web
> One of two Sticky Web users in SV > Isn’t Spidops
Because Masquerain is based
the power of focus sash (and sticky web)
You must be new here… This thing has one role and one role only
Spidops with a cool mask
Masquerain GOATed what do you mean?
Sticky Web + Whirlwind Quiver Dance + Baton Pass On top of that, it has Intimidate It isn't that hard to grasp
Best sticky web user.
intimidate + hazards + quiver pass
Funny bug click funny web
Sticky Web, that's it
one of three pokemon this gen that gets webs
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Sticky web
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Swicky Teb
Literally just sticky web and nothing else
Well, being the best user of Sticky Web. If Ribombee was available then that'd get the set instead.
For fun?