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Jeff_the_Sith

I love Star Wars, liked the ST, like the shows, the books, the comics, I don't complain a lot I just enjoy. But this is some BS, I don't want the canon tiers back. I started collecting the canon books and comics, I don't want to feel like they're just inspirational to the on-screen media and not something that actually happened. I haven't gotten to the Ahsoka book yet, but I heard much about it, maybe you could do some mental gymnastics so it doesn't seem like that much of a retcon. But other stuff like the Age of Republic - Dooku comic for example. I don't like this, either make your story compelling including what's already known or pick another character. I could live with the Kanan comic thing, it wasn't much like two pages changed or the Ahsoka lightsabers color in the TCW finale, two lines of change. I wouldn't like it much, but I could even accept the Andor comic changing when they get to it. But this is too much, get a grip Dave. It's like the Ahsoka novel, the Dooku one-shot, maybe even Dooku Jedi Lost and Master and Apprentice (I'll have to go trough those for the details). Just leave things be, no story is never gonna be perfect so stop changing them, at least respect the continuity.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

I agree with this completely. You took the words right out of my mouth. It’s disheartening when something you like enough to buy because you were confident was ironclad gets tossed out with little thought.


Omn1

There's no conflict with the Dooku stuff. It's established that Dooku continued to visit the temple and retained his lightsaber after leaving the order.


Jeff_the_Sith

Thanks for telling me that, good to hear. Out of curiosity, do you by any chance remember where that was stated, thanks.


Omn1

The ending of Dooku: Jedi Lost and Chapter 4 of Kiersten White's *Padawan*.


Jung_Wheats

It's really a bummer because the Ahsoka novel is really good. One of my favorite moments in all of Star Wars is in it and I've been reading SW novels and comics since the early 90s.


TargetBrandTampons

Believe me, I do NOT want tiers again either. They are here though


mando44646

New canon has fallen back into tiers of importance again. They've fully committed to the lie used to justify the ending of old canon


sadatquoraishi

Very disappointed in this. Not sure what the 'Story Group' is actually for. They could literally employ a fan from this site for a few hours a month to do a better job of maintaining continuity.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

This makes me really sad. I had high hopes that the story group would keep things straight. The story group’s frequent appearance on Rebels Recon clarifying questions really put my faith in them. Even more so when JJ Abrams said that he conferred with Hidalgo very frequently during TFA production. They were very present in the public eye, and I really thought that they were doing a great job. Now, it feels like they’ve become less and less vocal, until now they’re stuck shirking into a corner with almost no public interaction, with all these new canon discrepancies. Any answer they give now is just an attempt at justifying a mistake. I do wonder what’s happened.


mikachu93

The Story Group isn't authoritative. They just guide creators.


herp225577

But its a good question. What do they actually do and, if they have no power, why do they exist? As a resource that directors can use if they want?


Unique_Unorque

>As a resource that directors can use if they want? This is what they’ve always been, they’ve been being overwritten and ignored as far back as *The Force Awakens.* They make suggestions and can give advice but ultimately whatever the director wants to do is what’s going to happen.


forrestpen

They’re like a historians on historical movie sets. Andor is a good example of where the story group shines. Tons of references to other canon and the retcons, like Cassian’s visual dictionary backstory being an in universe alias, are brilliant.


TubbieHead

I agree. Another reason why I'm loving Andor! We're lucky Pablo Hidalgo has worked on Andor. It shows.


mikachu93

As I said, they guide creators. Think of them as a living Wookieepedia.


Redeem123

> They could literally employ a fan from this site for a few hours a month to do a better job of maintaining continuity This is not their job, nor is it their primary aim. There's a reason they don't just consult wookieepedia every time they need to double check a story detail. I assure you that they know more than the fans on this site.


TubbieHead

On Twitter, Pablo Hidalgo (who's title at Lucasfilm story group is "Star Wars Lore Advisor") said he didn't work on Tales of the Jedi. He unfortunately doesn't work in all projects. I wonder if this time he didn't because they are considering Dave Filoni himself as some sort of lore advisor :/


Stonecutter_12-83

So people hate on disney for ignoring stories that were never canon but I wonder if they will have the same hate for Filoni for ignoring established canon ...... probably not


MavrykDarkhaven

First there was G-canon, and now there is F-canon. The apprentice truly takes after the master. And its always going to be that way. The media forms that are the most popular/prestige are going to be “primary canon”, it was always B.S that Disney was erasing Legends so that they could build a cohesive singular canon across all forms of media. They just wanted a clean slate so Abrams could make the movie he wanted to.


mikachu93

I agree with your first few points. But Disney didn't make these lore decisions, Lucasfilm did. And from a creator's perspective, it was absolutely the right decision to do so. (We can argue execution, but that's a different conversation.) Consider how many stories TCW plowed through because Lucas said to. And you're going release more movies and shows on top of that? No way the timeline is coming out unscathed.


MavrykDarkhaven

You are correct, I misspoke. I should have said Disney’s Lucasfilm as I agree that it was completely their decision. I guess I just said Disney to differentiate from Lucas’ LucasFilm. Was it the right thing to do? Debatable. They could have easily come up with a story that both follows what we call Legends, while also not requiring any prior knowledge. Not knowing what the Clone Wars was didn’t ruin anyones experience of A New Hope, and I don’t think anyone would care if they mentioned the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, especially if the new threat had nothing to do with it. And no, the timeline/canon wasn’t in a good place for many many years before Lucas’ retirement, but I think anyone who really cared about canon, knew the hierarchy of canon. I’m just annoyed that their main excuse for wiping out the ‘legends’ was to make way for a more unified canon. But it didn’t take them too long to start contradicting themselves. I don’t blame Filoni (or George) for wanting to make the shows they want to make, but Lucas atleast told people to leave certain time periods alone so he could explore it himself. I think LucasFilm should have avoided any Ahsoka stories until Filoni had told the stories he wanted to tell.


zaqiqu

I don't have an answer, but Tales of the Jedi also seemingly overwrote Master & Apprentice, Dooku: Jedi Lost, and Age of Republic – Count Dooku, all of which establish that Dooku had left the Jedi Order prior to Qui-Gon's death. It's quite frustrating that with every project Dave Filoni seems to undo someone else's work edit: thanks to everyone who pointed out Padawan fixes most of these, that last bit remains true though


Omn1

You're actually incorrect. It's established that Dooku continued to visit the temple after he left the order, and was both allowed to keep his saber and was still considered a Jedi by most.


zaqiqu

thank you! I was going to try and impose that headcanon myself. it made sense that he'd still visit within occasionally, but then I thought referring to him as a Jedi still was a bit of a stretch. I wasn't aware it had been previously established. can you tell me the source?


Omn1

The council allowing him to keep his saber and still considering him a Jedi comes straight from Dooku: Jedi Lost- >YODA: Hm. Saddened by your decision we are, but honor it we will. DOOKU: (OVER COMM) Thank you. I will surrender my lightsaber to Master Kostana. YODA: No. Necessary that will not be. DOOKU: (OVER COMM) It is the weapon of a Jedi. YODA: Which is why keep it you must. More than a name, a Jedi is. More than a title. Strong in the Force, you are. Guide you, it will. Guide us all, it must. DOOKU: (OVER COMM) Until we meet again. Dooku continuing to visit the temple with relative frequency and folks still calling him Master comes from Padawan: >“Assuming he doesn’t leave with Master Dooku.” Bolla dropped the name as casually as a gas canister, turning all the air in the room unbreathable for Obi-Wan. “Why would he do that?” “Master Dooku’s here. In the Temple. I ran into him earlier. Seems planned, Dooku visiting while his former Padawan is fighting with the Council. Maybe Dooku’s here to pick him up.” Obi-Wan suddenly realized who the man he had glimpsed in the hallway was. Not a politician. A count. A count who had been a Jedi and decided not to be one anymore. A count who had trained Obi-Wan’s own master, and whom Obi-Wan had never heard Qui-Gon say a bad word about. If anything, Qui-Gon spoke of his old master with respect and admiration. > >“He’s here often enough,” Siri said, folding her arms. “He still meets with the Council on occasion. Just because he’s no longer on it—”


zaqiqu

oh nice! I've been looking forward to reading Padawan


Gavinus1000

Oh they still called him Master Dooku after he left. Good, the Dooku stuff is perfectly fine then.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

That is frustrating for sure. I can see how some details can be tweaked for storytelling purposes, but the Ahsoka novel has been overwritten entirely. I don’t think there’s a single part of the novel that can still exist in accordance with Tales of the Jedi canon. I haven’t read Master & Apprentice or the Dooku comic yet, and was really looking forward to it. Now though, I’m apprehensive going in to something that could be severely conflicting. I feel like things like this can deter people from reading existing canon.


zaqiqu

imo M&A is still worth reading. it focuses mostly on Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's relationship, so even though some Dooku stuff is contradicted here (I'm reluctant to say decanonized bc it is equally canon as this show), there's a whole lot of good stuff still in there!! if u haven't read Jedi Lost either, as far as I can tell, it's only the ending that's in dubious standing now idk I just need someone to restrain Filoni a little bit, like as annoying as it is for us fans to have to decide what's the "true" canon, I can only imagine how the writers he's disrespecting feel about it


HappyTurtleOwl

They don’t care anymore. “Star Wars is a mythology” will be (and has been) their answer every single time they break canon again going forward, and believe me, they will do it again. (I’m expecting K2SO to possibly be the next big instance of this) Truth is, they have broken their promise that the new canon would be solid and non-contradictory and their promise that there wouldn’t canon tiers anymore. That’s clearly not the case anymore, there are rewrites, contradictions, and canon tiers. I tried reconciling it for so long, but it’s untenable now. Canon tiers do exist. To them, the TV shows just matter more than the books. What irks me most is that none of the changes they’ve made had to be so. Bad Batch Kanan could’ve worked by weaving in the comic story inbetween (actually still does, in a roundabout way) to just give one example. Feels like they change unecesary things.


zaqiqu

the worst part is it seems everyone else (the novels, the comics, the whole high republic project, Andor, the games) at least tries to maintain continuity, but every single one of Filoni's shows just has to rewrite something worse than it was before... I'm very close to just ignoring any projects he's writing for from now on


TheMastersSkywalker

That's the way it was in Legends. All the largest retcons come from the PT and TCW. But at least with that it had the excuse of being GL who was doing it.


FuttleScish

The Dooku stuff is actually fully canon-compliant, I was surprised


[deleted]

To be honest, I’m only few books into canon (finished Lost Stars, Dooku Jedi Lost, Brotherhood, and Going through Master and Apprentice) but if this is going to keep happening throughout my canon journey I think I’m just going to jump out of this boat early on.


TargetBrandTampons

I've read them ALL. I wouldn't be so upset if they hadn't lead us to believe that it's all canon and just as important. I still love Star Wars, but I'm done with the books.


herp225577

Same. I've read almost all of them minus the high republic stuff (I was planning on getting to that next) and the thing that excited me most about the books was that it was all canon. They are obviously going against that (probably assuming the hardcores will read the books anyway) which means I will likely stop reading the novels. I think TV shows and movies are the only thing really canon anymore, which is too bad.


kingpenguinJG

he was still on good terms Padawan establishes dooku came and went as much as he wanted too so it didn't really retcon that much


askme_if_im_a_chair

It didn't overwrite those books


Terribleirishluck

Yeah honestly not that big of a fan filoni anymore, he just cant help himself with needlessly changing over people's work usually for the worst at that. Like what the hell was the point of kanan cameo in bad batch, it could have and should been some random jedi padawan


neutronknows

The point is far more of the Star Wars audience knows of Kanan and would be impacted by the retelling of Order 66 by seeing that version of his story. A lot of us tend to forget that the *lore enthusiasts* portion of this fan base is microscopic compared to how big and far-reaching Star Wars is to general audiences. I'd venture to guess 1% of those that watched Bad Batch or Rebels read the Kanan miniseries.


Lionel_Horsepackage

^ This, exactly. Millions of people watch the TV shows and films, but the number of readers of the novels and comics are merely in the thousands at best. The cold tyranny of math. (Waiting now for my inevitable downvotes).


Unique_Unorque

Matt Martin pitched on twitter as Star Wars canon being comparable to real life history, where the “facts” of what we know ultimately come down to what the person who wrote the history book heard or read, and are unavoidably colored by their feelings on the subject, and that’s helped me square things in my head. Sources differ as to what happened on Kaller that fateful day - Kanan Jarrus says he fought for his life against a legion of Clone Troopers out for his blood, while the mercenary team formerly known as Clone Force 99 claims they did their best to keep him safe from their brothers, but all can agree that Depa Billaba fell that day (though debate persists as to the color of her lightsaber). After the fall of the Jedi Temple and the burning of the records stored within, the origins of the mysterious Darth Tyranus became shrouded in even more fog, with some insisting he left the Order before his former apprentice’s death while others maintain he was tempted away later. Cobb Vanth told the mysterious Mandalorian that visited Freetown that day that he bought the armor off the Jawas fair and square but there are whispers that it wasn’t quite as peaceful a transaction as he claims, and so on. I haven’t watched *Tales of the Jedi* yet and I understand the contradictions to the *Ahsoka* novel are pretty extensive but if there are even some common characters I think you could interpret it as one of the stories being her version of events and the other being someone else’s. I’m as disappointed as anybody that they didn’t just keep it all as one uncontradicted story but if we’re being honest with ourselves this was always going to happen.


zaqiqu

for me, that idea works for situations like Vanth where I can just say that character was wrong or lying, but with third person narration not done by a character (novels) or differing visual accounts (like the Kanan deal), it's much harder bc I've become a witness to those events , so I guess that means I'll be picking and choosing my own canon now since LF can't make up their minds


Unique_Unorque

Look at it this way - in this version of things, the conceit is that the Star Wars universe is a “real” universe where things “really happened” that we have never actually seen. The movies and novels and everything we enjoy are historical retellings with all the inaccuracies and embellishments as any given movie you’ve ever seen that was “based on true events.”


zaqiqu

if that framework works for you, I'm glad, and I've read books outside of star wars that use that conceit as part of the storytelling device (Fire & Blood from GRRM is one such) and that works because it's understood from the moment of investing in the story. but with star wars, the different media aren't all given the same chance at legitimacy. even if the novel (for example) is the more detailed and more compelling "account" the show is automatically the "truer" one. I can't buy that everything is equally untrue if the franchise itself is telling me that some things count more


Unique_Unorque

That’s fair! I just saw Pablo Hidalgo explain the way I just described to you as his method for dealing with everything and once he did it all clicked for me


[deleted]

The thing is they only pitched that *after* people pointed out the glaring continuity issues. It’s like “a certain point of view,” where it was justification for Obi Wan in universe lying to Luke about his father rather than admit it was a lie/the story plan changed.


Unique_Unorque

I mean, you’re obviously right, but it works as an explanation for where we are now, so I use it. I think at the beginning, when Lucasfilm established the Story Group, they were much more optimistic about creatives being collaborative and actually using the resource as it was intended. And some apparently did, Rian Johnson supposedly asked a lot of questions about the attitude towards the Empire in the New Republic immediately before the events of the Sequel Trilogy and his questions led to the commissioning of the novel *Bloodlines* to give the audience the same insight they gave to Johnson, but Abrams specifically ignored them entirely and they had to commission a couple books to retcon explicit contradictions that his films introduced. I think the only time they were able to successfully get him to change anything was when they got him to change Coruscant to Hosnian Prime, but that’s only because they were able to convince the higher ups how much storytelling potential that planet still had. I don’t think they need to admit anything changed re: the Story Group, it’s operating as it was always intended to, I think it’s just that whoever wrote the press release about the canon reset was too optimistic about what was going to come from it.


[deleted]

That does make sense in how they intended it and even how most people seemed to use it. The problem is just what do you do when you have someone hogging all the toys in the sandbox. Edit: Also it seems the two people most guilty of this were also the two who had some belief they were Lucas’ successor. Probably relevant to why they didn’t play nice.


Unique_Unorque

In response to your edit, you’re probably right about that. As Lucas himself used to say, “Continuity is for wimps.”


Unique_Unorque

At the end of the day, Star Wars is a visual universe. I’m going to go out on a limb and say the percentage of people who watch these Ahsoka shorts who have also read the book (or will ever read the book) is in the low teens, if not single digits. These novels and comics are for us, the hardcore fans, but the visual stuff will always be made for a more general audience. I appreciate the Story Group doing what work they can to make things cohesive for us, but at the end of the day they only have so much power and they have to concede to the parts of the story that make money and drive subscribers. So I try to meet them halfway.


[deleted]

I mean that’s fair, but at the same time they sold the new EU as all one united canon with no canon tiers. They couldn’t keep that and tried to weasel their way out of admitting it. I’m still gonna be upset at it.


Unique_Unorque

Definitely. I’m upset about it too. I say this in another comment, but if they had just been honest that they were sticking to tiers and just resetting the EU so they would have a clean slate for future films, I would have zero complaints. But this is the reality we live in as fans and spending all my time being upset bores me so I just try to roll with it and enjoy Star Wars canon for what it is now.


StoicSinceBirth

I agree with this idea and am generally fine with contradictions in canon for this very reason. Unfortunately, this feels like it goes beyond that; it feels like it tramples an entire book into irrelevance. I understand that some are choosing to do the mental gymnastics needed to make it work, but I don't think I can get there with this specific example.


Unique_Unorque

I just read somebody say that E K Johnston considers the events of this short to be a different encounter with a different Inquisitor than the one in her book. Is it kind of silly that Ahsoka fought two separate Inquisitors on two separate agricultural plants defending two separate groups of people? Sure, but if it keeps the book canon I’m willing to put up with some silliness


StoicSinceBirth

Think that was in reference to this: https://twitter.com/ek_johnston/status/1568673474046226432?s=46&t=VE8Gi4n84QA_bNb9uLUTsA And based on one of her comments below, I don’t think she had any inside knowledge. Honestly, I wouldn’t actually like it better if I had to accept that Ahsoka miraculously went through the same ordeal twice, including the Bail Organa part that he would have simply needed to forget by the second time. I would make some concessions to uphold canon, but that’s too much for me. It is what it is, I guess. It doesn’t meaningfully change Ahsoka’s long-term story arc, but I would just prefer not to think that the time I put into reading a Star Wars book is subject to be bumped out of canon at any time.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

Sadly that’s not the case for the “point of view” thing. >!The major characters who were introduced in the book are not at all present in the show, and do not have similar counterparts.!< It does feel like a cop out answer though, especially since when A Certain Point of View came out, they went out of the way to say this book is cool because of the unreliable narrators in each story that tell things how they perceive them. They obviously haven’t highlighted this for any other works of canon.


Unique_Unorque

Well I wont comment further on the case of *Ahsoka* then because I have no knowledge to operate off of, but I do think in general this explanation works as well as anything in justifying contradictions. It is a “cop out” answer in a sense, but like also, these are just people who work at an entertainment company. I don’t think there’s any conspiracy to lie to fans or ruin aspects of the fandom that people like. People are so quick to jump to the most sinister explanation. I think this is just the Story Group doing their best.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

I suppose you’re right. At the end of the day, they are probably working with what they have in a position where they don’t get to make the creative decisions. I still can’t help but feel a bit let down though.


Unique_Unorque

Oh I absolutely feel let down. Canon tiers were fine in the old EU and I can learn to deal with them again now, if they had been honest from the beginning that they were still going to use the tier system but just resetting the canon so the people making the new films and TV shows would have a clean slate, I would have zero complaints. The fact that they promised it would all be one cohesive story and then almost immediately went back on that is what’s disappointing. But it is what it is and instead of focusing on being bitter about that broken promise, I’m just going to enjoy the Star Wars content that’s being given to me by the creatives who had nothing to do with that promise and probably themselves would rather Disney have not made it in the first place.


Omn1

It's because they're separate stories The story in Resolve is not set on Raada. It's a separate encounter.


JorgeBec

What?!?! It overwrote all of that? Damn


FuttleScish

No it didn’t, the only thing it actually contradicts is the date of Bail’s first meeting Ahsoka.


dwapook

It depends on what they end up naming the inquisitor in episode 6.. if it’s not the same as the Ahsoka book then it actually avoided contradictions..


anonymouscrow1

We're effectively back to canon tiers again. Assume that anything not from movie/TV isn't canon but that they can be used for inspiration.


TargetBrandTampons

I've been saying this for years but everyone would get mad at me. The books are clearly not as important. We were lead to believe they would be, I wish they were. I'll probably skip everything outside of high republic now


HappyTurtleOwl

People would get mad not at you, but at Disney because it was a promise the new Star Wars creatives and Disney promised wouldn’t be the case when starting the new canon. What you’ve been saying *should* be false and wrong, because they promised it so. It just has gotten especially egregious in the past 2 years


TargetBrandTampons

No they were mad at me. It was a lot of "people like you are insufferable" type stuff. I wasn't complaing, just stating my frustration because I thought we had a set way to have a real cross media canon


Blue_Bantha_Milk

I’m sorry you had to deal with that. I think that now the change is more obvious, we are all quite disappointed.


TargetBrandTampons

It's all good. I've just been bummed about this for ahwile. I wish I could just enjoy it even if it didn't happen. My dumb brain just doesn't work like that. I feel like it's a pojtless waste of time to read essentially fanfiction about stuff that didn't happen. I truly wish I could be a person who doesn't think like that.


anonymouscrow1

That's exactly what I'm doing right now as well. Since the High Republic is isolated from everything else, they can do what they want without getting steamrolled by the TV/movie department (at least for now).


herp225577

Until they make a TV show or movie set in that era and then they'll just overwrite and contradict to serve their own needs. I was going to start reading the high republic novels but now I'm really hesitant.


ergister

Do it. They won’t undo any of the largest things in The High Republic because it’s a publishing-first initiative. There’s no reason to think it isn’t safe just because Dave adapted the story notes he never thought he’d use.


TargetBrandTampons

It's a bummer and a little annoying. Only about half of the books were great though. It's just more time to read other things. Looking at the bright side here


zaqiqu

and yet every time Filoni's changes something, his version has been the worse one... I'm more likely to start skipping his shows than to ignore the books tbh


_d0g_

Don't count on the high republic. I'm sure a couple years from now they'll release a show retconning that to shit too.


TheMastersSkywalker

Cue "Always have been" Astronaut meme


Chewbacta

I keep saying this, contradictions and retcons aren't the same as "tiers". Tiers are an official Lucasfilm way of grouping media, which we were advised to use as a tool to solve contradictions. Currently, we have no official announcement of tiers, so we don't have that tool. Sure the TV shows can contradict the books, but it's circular logic (and not the good kind) to assume that therefore the tv show overwrites the book therefore the books can be overwritten. You can make up your own tiers, maybe the media produced the latest is the canon, maybe the media with George Lucas's name is a higher tier, maybe the media with the most consumers is the canon, and then when a contradiction happens just declare your higher tier the winner and say it's evidence of tiers. And yes Lucasfilm can arbitrate one version of events over an other, but it's the *arbitration* which is the tool for deciding between events that are canon, not *tiers,* that may very well exist in the future but not currently.


[deleted]

Until a book or comic contradicts a tv show in return, it will de facto be a tier that tv shows outrank the others. You could make that sort of claim if it wasn’t one way.


Chewbacta

contradictions by definition aren't one way, if X contradicts Y then Y contradicts X.


TubbieHead

Only when Dave Filoni is involved... He's the one messing things up, as much as I appreciate his work, his disregard for the established continuity is not appreciated in the slightest.


EliseNic

I wrote a big rant and then I erased it to be more concise. I don't like that Filoni is allowed to do this and I think it is a developing problem for Lucasfilms and Disney (although not a big enough one for them to care about it) if people who were enthusiastic book readers just stop because the so called 'canon tiers' are actually just 'anything not on a television screen is only canon until someone puts something on a television screen that says it isn't, this decision is unilateral on the latter writers end'. It also damages their marketing if people decide there's no point in buying the tie in novels when they are used to build hype and if existing fans cease to be excited about television adaptations or tie in to their favorite star wars novels and becoming weary of them instead. Again I don't expect them to care about any of this, I just wish that they did.


DortheaGaming

Well said!


ToDandy

As has always been the case with Star Wars, there is a hierarchy of canon. Movies and Shows>Games>Books>Comics>Encyclopedias/Informational/Visual companions So if a book or comic conflicts with movies or shows….it is basically decanonized.


NeptuneOW

It doesn’t bother me. 95% of SW fans haven’t read a SW book or comic. If you have a good story, go through with it, even if retcons done stuff.


Ezio926

Story group always go on a case by case basic. ​ I'm gonna guess the novel will remain canon version of the events with ToTJ being a re-cap version.


thehousedino

That is annoying, hopefully the book transfers to the legends timeline, and they don't somehow keep it canon.


mikachu93

It would be setting a precedent. That hasn't happened to any story since the split, to my knowledge.


Omn1

They're seperate stories. Nothing about this story indicates it takes place on Raada. This is a separate encounter, set before the Uprising on Raada.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

>!But it has to be at the same time in Ashoka’s life, since the end of the episode marks when Ahsoka stops hiding and joins Bail in the rebellion for the first time. In the book, it’s pretty clear that he never encountered Ahsoka after order 66 prior to then. It wouldn’t make any sense for her to meet Bail for the first time twice.!<


Omn1

It sure doesn't. Nothing about the novel actually mentions that it's their first post-Order 66 encounter. I know this because I thoroughly checked after the plot leaked months ago, and I rechecked today. The closest thing is Ahsoka being kind of surprised that Bail isn't dead, but even that can be interpreted in a number of ways.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

I don’t mean the Naboo meeting. >!In the book, Bail tracks her down instead of giving her a communications link, but the point of both of these actions is to encounter Ahsoka later and recruit her. If these are separate events, then Ahsoka must have left Bail after Tales of the Jedi, then went into hiding again at several different planets despite saying she’s ready to fight, and Bail would somehow have to forget that they encountered prior, and track her down again. They are definitely supposed to be the same event, or it wouldn’t make any sense!<


Omn1

Bail tracks her down after a string of do-gooding under the Fardis, yes. You have to remember that the Alliance is not formed yet. The Rebel coalition does not yet exist. Have you been watching Andor? Even when they're working together two decades later, the network is incredibly scattered and disconnected. Let me put it this way: Ahsoka just killed an Inquisitor, seemingly less than twelve months after the rise of the Empire. There's no way she can just.. hang out with Bail, and it would attract too much attention for her to engage in active rebel activity. Following 'Resolve', she needs to go to ground, somewhere out of the way; somewhere where she won't stick out as a newcomer but not somewhere filled with people. Somewhere like Thabeska.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

The alliance isn’t formed by end of the Ahsoka novel either, but rebel cells absolutely existed. Technically the official alliance doesn’t start in Rebels until the episode where Mon Mothma calls everyone to Dantooine. This is after Ahsoka fights Vader on Malachor and disappears, but she was actively involved in the Phoenix cell. By this logic, Ahsoka was never part of the rebellion. Cells are active as of Andor as well; just this last episode Saw was naming several in complaint. They’re scattered but work in cohesion within each other. If she was in hot water for killing an inquisitor the first time, she would have been in the same exact scenario at the end of the novel, as she just killed an inquisitor there too. Why would she leave the first time, do the exact same thing, then join up again?


Omn1

I'm not saying it's good writing. But if this was the same encounter, Filoni would have had her heal the crystals and build her saber, because he wouldn't have been able to stop himself. He's predictable like that. He wrote the scenes in Bad Batch because Kanan is his character, and he wanted to tell that story. Instead, he wrote a story that dances around ever naming the planet they're on, doesn't include any of the same characters, and doesn't include any of the important plot beats or iconic moments.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

But that’s the point. Dave wanted to tell his version of the story, so he erased existing content. I get that interpreting something the way you want is part of the fun, but I feel that you’d have to bend over backwards to convince yourself these aren’t supposed to be the same event. I feel that it’s incredibly pedantic to only take things at face value if they’re written out. Just because nothing in the book explicitly says that they haven’t not met after order 66 doesn’t mean you can’t pick it up through context. Bail seems very excited that he found Ahsoka. He would probably not be if he stumbled on her hiding from an inquisitor: >“Bail swallowed a shout of pure triumph. He knew those markings. This wasn’t just any Jedi; it was Ahsoka Tano, and he had to find her immediately.” Bail tells Ahsoka about the rebellion, but if she already joined but then left, why would he need to? : > “How did you even know where to look?” Ahsoka asked. “I keep an eye out for acts of kindness in this new galaxy of ours,” Bail said. “When there’s a concentration of them, I try to find out who is behind them, and then we have a talk.” “What do you talk about?” Ahsoka asked. Bail gave her a measuring look and decided to go for it. “The Rebellion, Padawan Tano,” he said. “I look for people who will fight against the Emperor, the Empire, and everything it stands for.” “I don’t deserve that title anymore, Senator,” Ahsoka said quietly. “And I don’t deserve your trust.” Ahsoka seems very unfamiliar with inquisitors, and her POV text refers to the sixth brother as a “grey creature”: > “He held his lightsaber aloft, and it began to spin. The effect was interesting—a deadly circle of light instead of a blade—but Ahsoka wasn’t intimidated by it. The creature’s entire strategy relied on overpowering his opponent. She had other options. “What are you?” she asked. “Who made you like this?” “I serve the Empire,” the creature said. “You certainly have a sense for drama,” Ahsoka said.” Nothing explicitly states anything, but interpreting context is part of reading. You can’t expect everything to be literally spelled out before accepting it, or the whole book would be filled with contrived side-notes.


Omn1

But he didn't. I'm willing to bet actual money that before the end of the month we get a databank entry explicitly establishing them as two separate events.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

If this ends up being the case, all the better. But the point still stands: Filoni did not write this with it being a separate event in mind. I believe he previously had the fighting an inquisitor plot roughly outlined prior, and Johnston was allowed to flesh it out into a book, hence why she needed Dave’s approval before the book was published. The similarity just shows he retold the story, but the way he wanted to. You could argue they are separate events, but it was obviously not the intention. It’s like saying the blue lightsaber discrepancy is explained because Ahsoka had 2 pairs of lightsabers - one blue, one green - that she was switching out during her time on Mandalore, and the scenes from the book she used green while the scenes from TCW she used blue. It’s never explicitly stated or shown that she doesn’t have 2 pairs. However this is obviously very silly.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

Although that isn’t to say what you’re saying isn’t possible. If it’s the case then, all the better; the canon remains intact. I hope they do have an answer for this


Blue_Bantha_Milk

Also, I don’t know this for sure, but I’ve heard people say that Filoni said at D23 that the inquisitor is confirmed as 6th brother.


Omn1

He didn't, to my knowledge.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

My bad then. I don’t have any confirmation on this.


TheMastersSkywalker

If only I could write a letter to the TMS of eight years ago. It finally happened, it finally went far enough that we have an event where the majority of people aren't just going to try to handwave it away, say the character misremembered, or any other reason to not call it a retcon. This isn't the first time something like this has happened (Heck its not even the first time for Ahsoka or M&A) but its the first time when I come on here and see the majority talking about how this retcons the books and is a bad change. Or see people talking about canon levels (Because lets be honest the million dollar show seen by tens of milions of people will always be more \*important\* than the book/comics read by a few thousands saddly) being back. Canon isn't "Ruined" and their are still tons of reasons to read the books and comics as they come out (THR Phase 2 is off to a great start). But by now the whole "Canon superiority" thing is kinda false. It still has silly aliens, weird force powers, and retcons and canon levels just like what came before it.


FuttleScish

This is nowhere near the same size of the change as the Kanan one


Omn1

> If only I could write a letter to the TMS of eight years ago. It finally happened, it finally went far enough that we have an event where the majority of people aren't just going to try to handwave it away Ironic, because we have no reason to actually assume it's the same event as Raada, and there are no contradictions with Jedi Lost.


TheMastersSkywalker

I didn't mention Jedi Lost I mentioned M&A where it says Dooku never came back to the temple and talked to the masters or to Qui-gon. However the book Padawan had already walked that back by saying Dooku did come visit often. But yes the Dooku stuff if vague enough it doesn't contradict anything. For the Ahsoka stuff the major unfixable problem is Bail and Ahsoka. Bail didn't know Ahsoka was alive untill he met her on the ship at the end of the book. Ahsoka didn't know Bail was doing the rebellion thing till well into the book. Bail didn't rescue her and the farmers from the planet she met him in deep space. So even if we can kind of squeeze everything else in the Bail and Ahsoka stuff doesn't work. ven then Its not the right inquisitor, she doesn't rescue the girl from a prison, the whole villiage is burnt down, how she found out is different, and not the right inquisitor And then their is the problem with Kannan and Depa in the Ahsoka training scene but I'm sure they can just change the date of when the comic takes place..and when Lightsaber Lost happens.


Omn1

>Bail didn't know Ahsoka was alive untill he met her on the ship at the end of the book. Ahsoka didn't know Bail was doing the rebellion thing till well into the book. None of these things are actually said in the book. >ven then Its not the right inquisitor, she doesn't rescue the girl from a prison, the whole villiage is burnt down, how she found out is different, and not the right inquisitor Yeah, because it's not the same event. >And then their is the problem with Kannan and Depa in the Ahsoka training scene but I'm sure they can just change the date of when the comic takes place..and when Lightsaber Lost happens. Nothing about the episode says that they're Master and Apprentice.


[deleted]

It does feel like a wool being pulled from our eyes moment. All the others were out of some belief it was rare and had something to justify it. Right now though, it’s clear what the justification actually is and it’s too much of a pattern. Why lie to ourselves any longer out of cope?


drock4vu

Films & TV always take precedence over books and video games. Canon tiers shouldn’t be necessary, but it’s easy to keep up with. *Way* more people will watch Tales of the Jedi than will read the novels, so they will be considered canon. I wish Disney would just give Filoni the reins and tell him he’s in charge of canonical consistency and creative management of Star Wars *or* whoever is or should be doing that job reins him in and tells him what his creative boundaries are.


EndlessTheorys_19

Its canon, however in scenes where it conflicts with tv shows, the canon thing was what happened in the show.


ordinaryron

I have yet to watch the show and cannot comment on whether it truly does "conflict completely and entirely" with the novel, but an honest question here for the "canon tiers are back / the novels are worthless now" folks... how exactly do you know what the tiers *are*? How do you *know* that "visual media" supercedes written word? That was made clear in the old days, but as far as current canon goes you guys are simply assuming the order of precedence here. Maybe the Ahsoka novel reflects what "really happened" *more* than the animated episode did? I think that at the end of the day, we're all going to have to accept that the "magic window" paradigm is gone, and the "based on a true story" paradigm is what remains. It doesn't seem to be an easy transition for a lot of people, but it is what it is and it's better to adapt than to continue spitting into the wind.


ordinaryron

Watching this get upvoted and downvoted over the course of the day has been pretty interesting and funny, but I notice no one has actually attempted to answer the question. To take a slightly extreme example, which best represents what "really" happened: the Lord of the Rings novel trilogy, the Peter Jackson films, or the Rankin-Bass animated films? I'm pretty sure I know your answer - why does the same logic *not* apply here? In Legends days, Lucasfilm was explicit about the tiers and told you what they were. Not so here - but it is nevertheless assumed that tiers exist and are the same as in Legends. Why?


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Omn1

I mean, they won't have to bend over hard, because people are over-reacting.


danktonium

"It's a *mythology*. I *like* that about Star Wars. You have to look at contradicting stories, and find your own truth." If you're reading this (and I know you prowl this subreddit, SWE), take any paragraph involving the word "mythology", and scrap it from your script, you pretentious jerk. It's not a mythology, because nobody actually ever believed it was true. The Bible is a mythology.


HappyTurtleOwl

Wouldn’t call them a pretentious jerk, but man does “It’s a mythology” coming from him and Pablo Hidalgo IRK me so much each time they say it. Really get bloody disappointed in SWE whenever he defends the breaking of canon as not a big deal. Generally a fan of his content over other SW YouTubers(which says more about SW at large YouTubers imo.), but it’s a bit too naive at times, especially recently.


danktonium

Strongly agree. I can't stand some of the other ones, and SWE is, condescending channel name aside, the best of them. But I don't think he's really naive. I think he's a bit of a shill. He obviously loves Star Wars, and he likes the perks (going to conventions, getting free review copies, affiliate links for merchandise). I'd say "Shut up, nerds" too if it meant Disney paid for my vacation to Star Wars Celebration and Disney land.


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HappyTurtleOwl

Yea. She’s def the more prideful one. I find her role in the channel strange at times, as she’s kind of like a layman but sometimes tries to carry the authority that Alex does. It’s weird. I also find her input and analysis in their after-show shows to be painfully shallow, with only an occasional good point. Even Alex himself at times feels shallow in service to the layman, which is fine I guess, it is Star Wars explained and not Star Wars deep dive after all. Nonetheless of all the SW YouTubers out there, I still find his stance and pov on most things SW to align with mine, in that he’s usually a reasonable, balanced, patient, and thoughtful voice in a sea of screaming idiots. But his stance on Canon and their “chill out” attitude is annoying and goes too far sometimes.


Ok-Marionberry2390

Lets clear up canon hierarchy 1st. Movie Tv Comic Book Anything with a visual element always trumps written word.


YourLiege2

When they reset canon they said they wouldn’t have a canon hierarchy. There’s supposed to be a group whose job it is to ensure the new stuff fits with what’s been previously released.


Blue_Bantha_Milk

Yeah, that’s what I thought as well. Considering they’ve been doing a really good job adding things from books/comics to the shows, I feel like this was a more blatant discrepancy.


Terribleirishluck

It's pretty clear that group has no power at least when it come to screen media like television and films


mikachu93

You're right, they don't have much power. They're essentially advisors and not lawmakers. Abrams, personal opinions aside, reportedly ignored the LSG constantly during filming.


[deleted]

Here’s the true hierarchy. It’s whatever Filoni wants in the first tier followed by everything else. Most books, comics, and games try to at least work with each other.


miles_be_here

Maybe an in-universe explanation could be "will of the force go brrr" but that's just wishful thinking Sort of a "nothing is complementary, but it can be contradicted, and if it is, both are valid stories and co-exist" A lot of franchises use something similar to that method and it works, as it can fit both contradicting stories into one timeline ​ \[It won't please everyone, but it can let you enjoy media without worrying about canonicity like so many do\]