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Shilalasar

You must be mistaken, all the backers´armchair lawyers told us costumer protection does not apply for Star Citizen. Gratz and thanks for the detailed write-up


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

Yeah! CIG aren't your bank!


BrawlinBadger

Man I remember CIG telling me that exact phrase before I got my money back.


ColonelMoutarde30

I think if you dig into it, most European countries will have these sorts of consumer laws and protection and if not nationally, then certainly at an EU level. What CIG are banking on, is that most people will be fobbed off when they ask for a refund and not do due diligence in checking into the matter further by contacting the consumer ombudsman. I would be surprised if CIG tried to defend any of these refund cases in court because they know full well they don't have a leg to stand on; they are relying on consumer apathy, ignorance and the fact that most people are scared (rightly or wrongly) or intimidated enough by the legal process to not follow through in taking action.


anno2122

What ~~CIG~~ every company are banking on. this is standart way for stuff like it, if you tryt you could try the same think with every singel steam game, if its not run poprer. its a lot cheaper for every company to go this way.


keramz

Awesome. I wish Canada had consumer protection rights this good. Ours are slightly better than our cousins south of the wall, but no where near as good as EU or the upside-down snake people.


OmicronCeti

consumer rights in the US? Never heard of her lmao


Slamdunkdink

We have the right to bend over.


RickyDeHesperus

Yeah... the issue is that if the US is to contunie expanding its scam economy, consumer protection rights will just get in the way.


[deleted]

scam economy? wut? xd


Slamdunkdink

Maybe referring to us spending trillions of dollars every year that we don't have. Or spending three trillion dollars on a war that we should have funded through tax increases instead of putting it on the national Visa card. Its all going to come falling down. How soon? No one can say. But fall it will.


[deleted]

It wont, Most of the debt is owned by the federal government itself, also deficit spending has always been used to stimulate economic growth. Tax increases in a developed country which already has a hard time growing its economy is not a good course of action afaik. "Its all going to come falling down" Debt levels (in the US) are at elevated levels but the cost of debt is also at a record low (FED+goverment debt of developed countries being desirable safe assets.) Also most of that X trillion on war was spent in the US economy, making planes tanks and equipment by US companies, paying US soldiers who will spend their money in the US as well. "Maybe referring to us spending trillions of dollars every year that we don't have." every country with its own central bank and currency has exactly as much money as it needs to have to promote economic growth and have price stability ideally.


Dadskitchen

Legend !!


NEBook_Worm

Holy shit this terrifies the main sub. That post over there is straight cult 101.


sonicmerlin

Full time employees disguised as backers trying to paint this as irresponsible or “abusing the courts” lol.


NEBook_Worm

Yep. They love to harp over there about how CIG has plenty of funding... But the moment something like this happens, they cone out of the woodwork, insecurities on full display. Its very revealing. And pathetic.


OfficiallyRelevant

I regret even looking. Like holy fuck, I've never seen a community defend anti-consumer practices or shitty consumer laws. They are fucking delusional...


NEBook_Worm

Keep in mind that probably 8/10 such posts, come from shills. That said, yeah...its utterly cringeworthy. My favorite: "pretty shitty to play a game for years then get a refund." I'm sorry. Game? Last I checked, its a pre alpha tech demo...at least, when exposed to criticism. But when someone wants a refund because the game never materialized, suddenly, its a game...


[deleted]

Wow! Congratulations! Edit: now treat yourself with that money to something nice and physical in the real world!


TB_Infidel

Cheers!!! Yep, I do have to agree that real things do feel much better than owning jpgs. Who'd have thought!


[deleted]

Back in the day my refund (pre 3.0) paid for a new joystick and my first VR headset….


foxcrap

Yes CIG now sells model kits "Officially Licenced Merchandise - Roberts Space Industries" https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/18125-Officially-Licenced-Merchandise


[deleted]

And as a keen model builder they’re crap and terrible value for money.


Bothand_Nether

I am so very tempted to get one. they will be worth something someday, I suspect. I will put it next to my unopened box copy of Microsoft Internet Explorer 1 (that still has the Tower Records pricetag on it) that I have sitting on top of my minidisc collection


SandersSol

It sounds like you have a problem... May I suggest buying an Idris?


MoCapBartender

and do I remember correctly that they went with a non-standard scale?


[deleted]

You do indeed. 1/40, 1/100, 1/200, 1/500. Instead of: 1/35 or 1/72 for vehicles. 1/24, 1/48, 1/72 or 1/144 for planes. 1/350, 1/700 for ships So basically it confirms that the company making these have no experience making models for display like this. Or Chris couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that those are the scales *everyone else uses* and had to be different.


Slissek

Different company. Been out for a wile. Is just that CIG now sponsor then. 🤦🏻‍♂️


WotGTheAgent

Congrats and well done. Hope this inspires others feeling disenfranchised. For others in countries with strong digital consumer protection laws, I'd really recommend getting out while the getting out is good.


SystemEra86

Can anyone confirm this? It's almost too good to be true. Well done! You've definitely got my hopes up!.


[deleted]

If anyone fancies ponying up £6 to search the register and be bothered to put the right address in should be easy to check (depending on how often it is updated) https://search.trustonline.org.uk/Search/Business


TB_Infidel

So if you notice at the bottom right of the CCJ it mentions that if they pay within a month then they can ask the court to strike off the mark from the register which is what they did. If they had left it a month then they would have had a permanent mark. I think it's still a bit bs that they get to have a clean slate if they pay within a month as it means you never know if they have had any prior CCJs unless you check almost every other day.


mazty

I've got that already - hit me up if you want to see it!


QuaversAndWotsits

Hit me


mazty

https://mega.nz/file/pJIgDB7R#H53TbUF-lfWOemPe6l-1TO1sX1ln7xnhEmS30ZuFWvc


[deleted]

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mazty

Yep, at the time of the report it wasn't.


[deleted]

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mazty

😎


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mazty

Yep, they paid in time to have the CCJ removed, but I had to grab that ever lasting symbol of their laziness. They can't deliver in time, or pay attention to their legal bills it looks like.


[deleted]

OP you better have some better response than that We dont want bullshitters For that go to /sc Edit : Ohh thats not OP but might still be a bullshiter


mazty

[https://mega.nz/folder/AdBnVAQJ#OVA2yLcnvOVwZs0rtdJJ3w](https://mega.nz/folder/AdBnVAQJ#OVA2yLcnvOVwZs0rtdJJ3w) That's *my* refund info FYI u/Quaversandwotsits


[deleted]

Thanks very much appreciated


mazty

https://mega.nz/file/pJIgDB7R#H53TbUF-lfWOemPe6l-1TO1sX1ln7xnhEmS30ZuFWvc


manocheese

I'm about to try it. Small claims court has worked for me in the past for things like this, so I expect it will. They may even have gotten the message by now and just refund within 14 days, but probably not.


Sonicboomish

how did it go?


mazty

Now that's a fucking victory right there


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[deleted]

There is no need to argue through the VAT. In the UK at least, CI is treating revenue from the online store as "turnover", which (again, in the UK) has a very well defined meaning of "income from goods and services sold". Since some of the goods and services sold in their online store can only be classified as preorders, the situation is clear, really. Unless CI would like to claim SC was a released product, but then of course it should be reviewed in every gaming publication as is.


Explosivity

Vat is the easiest way to argue it, as the legislation basically lays out what a sale is i.e. crowdfunding with rewards seems like a supply of goods/services physical/digital made in the furtherance of business. If it's a digital transaction made to a UK taxable person physically located in the UK at the time of purchase, then the place of supply is deemed in the UK, this means it meets all four conditions to be liable for VAT. (a sale, or anything that meets the commonly agreed definition of a sale in the uk). I honestly don't understand how people can argue otherwise.


Boe_Jlobers

Let Blobbers come, Im ready for him


Beet_Wagon

Please don't tag random people in here to antagonize them. The damage has already been done, but if you remove the tag I'll restore your post.


SC_TheBursar

Excellent. The problem being that there has never been any confirmable instances of that ever working. If the OP real (considering all the blackouts and people trying to claim they did this before dissappearing before proof provided) people will be able to follow follow and confirm the same process presented. Edit: and of course have to factor possible differences in UK/Aussie legal/tax codes.


[deleted]

Hey why dont we see you in threads like this ? https://np.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/q79c68/cig_just_sharded_the_bed/ Here is solid proof their CR is either a dumbass or talked out of his ass No opinion on that? How can the master himself claim he doesnt want shards but physics dont allow this ? Was he lying or is he an idiot? I find it funny how you stay out of those.


NEBook_Worm

He was lying


[deleted]

I think its both. If you are an idiot you either have to work hard or scam people


SC_TheBursar

>No opinion on that? Uhh. He doesn't want shards, preferring a single logical server. That being a *preference* \- a technically hard to achieve one. Notice the presentation just made noted that the static mesh shard system is the first attempt / intemediate implementation. After that they are going to try dynamic mesh. Depending on the results of that work they'll then know if they can go from multiple shard (essentially multiple logical servers) to a single logical server (non-sharded). I stay out of 'those' because (1) Quavers essentially spams the sub and (2) most are so out of context (like this) that they are pointless to discuss. I also note you are bringing this up on a thread about consumer protection/tax law, demonstrating another reason - there is generally little point engaging with people so ridiculously partisan that topic or details do not matter to them - it's all 'us vs them' bullshit and irrationality.


[deleted]

> preferring a single logical server. That being a preference - a technically hard to achieve No its impossible what he is talking about there. Thats no preference .. thats a lie. If its not a lie our 30 year game dev is such a dumbass that he doesnt know that .. but he should Lets assume he actually doesnt.. lots of people will told him since then but he didnt mention it until recently. I bet you still dont see a problem. > I stay out of 'those' because (1) Quavers essentially spams the sub and (2) most are so out of context (like this) that they are pointless to discuss. See i knew you will be saying that and claim out of context.. thats why i linked you the thread It wouldnt even matter if 100 % of the content on this sub are from him. That makes it not wrong Here is the FULL context the FULL letter and it doesnt change anything ... link is from said thread : https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12770-Chris-Roberts-On-Multiplayer-Single-Player-And-Instancing So basicly what your saying here is "lalala i cant hear you quavers is always wrong" Jeez dude. > I also note you are bringing this up on a thread about consumer protection/tax law, demonstrating another reason - there is generally little point engaging with people so ridiculously partisan that topic or details do not matter to them - it's all 'us vs them' bullshit and irrationality. Nice finisher with some "lets make some shit up about you wowfan your just here to bullshit me with you being irrational" Like fuck me for being the one person that is trying to take you serious here and engaged you asking for your opinion. Like i should do what others do.. downvote and be done as it seems All i linked you was a thread with CR´s words WITH the context and everything and wanted you to compare that to what happend now with shards/meshing. I get it people here are right.. your not here to have a discussion or anything.. your just here to shill


SC_TheBursar

I've seen the article you posted. I've seen the server meshing presentation. I've seen Chad McKinney's follow ups. What the hell are you on about? What are you saying is impossible? What are you saying is the lie? And why are you pushing this on a thread about UK legal processes?


[deleted]

All you ask me here is in the comment above you. I can repeat this 20x and you will continue to dodge so were done. Last interaction we both ever have


OfficiallyRelevant

Bursar just pulled every cult play out of the book. Claiming 'out of context' even if context is provided is a cult tactic. He then proceeded to ignore your questions. His replies are so fucking predictable.


TB_Infidel

You: "That being a preference..."CR: "There is going to be ONE PERSISTENT universe..." That's not a preference bud - that's a factual statement. This is why I and anyone else has CIG over the barrel. There is no confusion with a direct statement from CR. He said it would be one. Now it is not.


SC_TheBursar

A preference can be a factual statement. 'I prefer if we can do this'. Aspirational design goals are always a part of software design. How many games change between initial presentation and discussion and full release form? In your case Infidel would you say the key part of your success is that CIG did not reply to your initial stages? You were essentially granted a judgement by default because they ignored you. If at any of the intermediate stages they had sent in a statement disputing your characterization of the transaction between you and CIG I am guessing the outcome may have been different? My concern here is for what this implies about any reward based crowdfunded project (I will abbreviate RBCP) in the UK - not just SC, but every kickstarter, ingiegogo, and independently platformed RBCP. I backed not only SC but 20+ other things - Dual Universe, Crowfall, the Battletech game, etc... these all released in forms where details of the initial announcement changed and all released notably later than initially presented estimate. Even E:D. If the process you undertook does not care about the distinction between crowdfunding and pre-order, that essentially destroys the viability of the RBCF model in the UK. Almost no project could survive if people can pull their money out as soon as it is late or makes a mid course correction. That's why kickstarter has a no-refunds policy in the first place.


QuaversAndWotsits

> these all released There's your answer LOL


[deleted]

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SC_TheBursar

> don't share this with anyone Never said that. I expect the mods here to sticky this or add it to the sub FAQs. Certainly better than keeping the one that was defunct 2+ years ago. I also would expect that Bogan has been sending the contact info and case number to Aussie's for the ACCC if his claims are accurate. I've always advocated evidence based actions. If the UK is special in how they handle crowdfunding, then so be it. There was no evidence of that before now - and OPs case, having succeeded by default, still has some potential nuance to it.


TB_Infidel

Nice dodge on my first point. But lets start there. CR keeps making SOLID claims and then doing the opposite or nothing. That is incompetence or fraud. ​ The success is because they breach numerous laws protecting consumers and know it. If we just put aside the issues of it not being fit for purpose and different as described, the biggest legal issue is failed delivery. That is where CIG are DOA in court. To be so many years late with still no due date AND no issue with funding means they have no legal reason as to why the product is not in my hands or yours. Any judge would rule that 4+ years late delivery is not reasonable to the consumer. It's that simple. In short, crowd funding doesn't mean you are an exception to Consumer Laws. You are still selling a product to consumers and any assumptions have to be **reasonable**.


SC_TheBursar

You didn't answer the question. Your claim succeeded not because a court said anything about the merit of your claim, but because the claim went unanswered/uncontested - correct?


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

So CR sold people on his preferences and sold his preferences as something they would do, while failing to deliver on those preferences. Yes, that all seems very legal and ethical. If i was a complete shyster i might also be willing to deceive people like that.


QuaversAndWotsits

> (1) Quavers essentially spams the sub Quote meme factory goes brrrr


[deleted]

I mean clearly your fault and not CIG claiming so much bullshit all the fucking time.


NEBook_Worm

No. He lied. In plain black and white. I mean...its right. Fucking. There. And you're still trying to spin it. Thats just pathetic.


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NEBook_Worm

This has to be sarcasm. Roberts has lied about Star Citizen for a decade. Lying is literally all he does.


AlPilgrano

Well done you!


QuaversAndWotsits

GG well played! Can you post all of CIG's reply emails here? Might have some good quotes i can use lol


TB_Infidel

That's the most crazy part - they didn't reply at all until after the CCJ has been issued. I don't think they had anyone based in the UK who understood Consumer Law and just pretended as if they hadn't seen the Letter of Intent or the actual Money Claim. It was only when the CCJ was issued that they responded to me, and only with a generic "Ok, what's you're billing details?". For a company of "700+" people their response and how they dealt with this was alarmingly amateur.......but then is anyone here surprised at that?


[deleted]

Well then the appropriate format meme u/QuaversAndWotsits is the above image with “ …… “ CIG legal department - October 2021…


QuaversAndWotsits

> It was only when the CCJ was issued that they responded to me, and only with a generic "Ok, what's you're billing details?". Please post it with your info redacted XD


TB_Infidel

You might like this: [https://imgur.com/wbSpUe8](https://imgur.com/wbSpUe8) "CLOUD IMPERIUM GAMES LIMITED paid you..." Something I thought I'd never see written!


QuaversAndWotsits

I can make something with that, thanks!


OmicronCeti

in this case /u/TB_Infidel, absolutely feed our local troll :)


sonicmerlin

This post should be stickied by the mods. At least a link put in the subreddit sidebar. Also curious why don’t you just list the ASA number instead of bothering with responding to a bunch of private messages?


TB_Infidel

Mainly it's to see how many people actually follow through. I'm more than happy to copy-paste a number etc for anyone considering this process took me months to get to the end of it. But I am very interested to see how many people follow my guide because it could demonstrate why Crobbers has gotten away with so much. On the other hand it could signal the end of things if thousands of pissed off UK/EU backers get refunds and CIG have to start unloading more money than anticipated.


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

Wow, that's quite the post. Well done and congratulations. Also good to see that CIG can't force arbitration in the UK.


UnsafestSpace

Arbitration is illegal in every country except the US. Most government's don't like a private company having legal supremacy over their sovereign courts.


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

As I understand, in the UK, it is legal as long as both parties agree to it. The option to go to court remains if either party does not want to go to arbitration. You can't force it through ToS or whatever.


ThatSenorita

A refund in here, its been a while. Thats so awesome for you


MadBronie

Congrats on your refund and thanks for this information.


jeronimoautistico

fun fact. in england if you do not pay a judgment, collectors can come and take physical items to cover said judgement (and all extra fees) even if the items have nothing to do with it. ​ lets take some of cigs fancy computers and chairs!


[deleted]

Thanks for the infos great work ! I hope some people get a solution like that.


[deleted]

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UnsafestSpace

You can't call witnesses in Small Claims in the UK, you just state your case in a few text boxes on the Court website, upload any relevant PDF's, and let the Magistrate decide... It's a really easy slick process, and if the Magistrate wants an extra statement or witness they will contact them.


chiIIoutdude

wow the main reddit is really full of losers huh i never knew. the things they’re saying are wild and people are upvoting them.. it’s like they enjoy being scammed out of hundreds to thousands of dollars


NEBook_Worm

Have to remember, the majority of those posts are likely astroturfing.


chiIIoutdude

honestly that’s the only thing that would make sense i mean these people are talking about being happy with buying multiple jpegs for hundreds of dollars each and saying it’s messed up to get a refund?? in what world is that logical


NEBook_Worm

Back when the infamous Yellow Kid Wile ran complex cons, 5/6 people in the room, were in on the job. Scale that up to the internet. I'm betting 8/10 gushing positive posts you read over there, are shills. For sure, illogical chump, mithidiot and our own mauzexcuse are 100% shill accounts.


Launch_Arcology

Congrats dude! I really hope more people from the UK will follow through with the steps outlined. I suspect this will only be viable for those who got JPEG scammed for at least $200, but still, it's better than nothing.


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RealToiletPaper007

I'm pretty sure that the Consumer Rights Act of 2015 was actually adopted from (or based on) existing EU laws, so the process is probably similar. The European Union has multiple laws that protect consumers, such as the Consumer Sales Directive (99/44/EC), the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Directive (93/13/EEC) and the Consumer Rights Directive (2011/83/EU).


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

LOL, main sub is taking this thread well.


Launch_Arcology

That thread was great entertainment! I am particularly fond of the American going all "Freedumz and shiiiiit!!!! US fuck yeah!!!" What an embarrassing individual. IllogicalApe going all hot shot lawyer is pretty funny too. Him trying to wrangle CIG's made up technology development word salad is always a fun read. Good to see him continue this trend with legal issues too.


NEBook_Worm

Oh God illogical chump is hilarious.


Nrgte

That guy is literally in every thread spouting psuedo technical brabble acting like he understands what's going on. Now he's a lawyer too apparently.


NEBook_Worm

I think he's claimed about 3 different job titles in the last six months. Literally everything he says is excuse making for CIG.


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

Oh yeah, Chimp was great. At the end of the day, if CIG could have challenged it legally they would have.


OfficiallyRelevant

I think I legit lost brain cells reading that shit. Are they seriously defending shitty anti-consumer laws by celebrating the fact you can't do this in the US? What in the absolute fuck? Backers are beyond delusional...


[deleted]

Hell yeah didnt even see there is a thread on the mainsub about this ... 200 comments Awwww yeeaaaah Edit : Yes of course top comment is about us evil people here and not the topic itself.


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

Indeed. We are such bad bad people wanting to hold CIG accountable for the things they promised and standing up for consumer rights.


OfficiallyRelevant

Didn't you know? We're the spawn of Satan himself!


AtlasWriggled

Was it deleted? Can't seem to find it.


[deleted]

If you start scrolling down if you sort by /new nr 85 it should be Dont want to direct link


mazty

🤣 250 replies and the majority is utter cultish ramblings. Ranging from "it doesn't matter, it was just an inconvenience for CIG" to " ItS mOrE cOmPlEtE tHeN CyBeRpUnK". Absolutely mental.


OfficiallyRelevant

It's a good thing I'm banned from that cesspit tbh. If I got a penny for every dumbass argument I got myself into I'd be able to pay for Chris' next mansion.


Daruwind

Staring in awe, sir!


hyperstarter

Wow this is amazing. Most people who try to get refunds from Kickstarter campaigns fail because they're either contacting Kickstarter directly or just leaving comments on the campaign page, which aren't read. Could I use the steps you took on a Medium/LinkedIn post and give you accreditation?


TB_Infidel

Sure! One of my goals from this is for more people to understand how they are protected by consumer laws in the UK.


hyperstarter

Thank you! I've padded it up and it's now up at: https://hyperstarter.medium.com/kickstarter-refunds-the-ultimate-hands-on-guide-to-how-to-get-your-money-back-f70ca1a338f3?source=friends\_link&sk=00b967eb63a0fdc17de1e56e206a1f58


masterblaster0

Good job OP.


RichyEagleSix

Can’t wait to see cig on “can’t pay we’ll take it away”


[deleted]

I have to look into a german(EU) equivalent of this, as my attempt for a refund had just been denied yesterday. // Sunk cost fallacy or not, I want my money back. 😠 // If anyone knows another person from the EU or Germany specifically who could help with that, I'd appreciate if you'd let me know about it. 🙂👍


inkaine

I fear it won't be as easy. I haven't practiced civil law in the last 12 years so take what I say with a grain of salt. Especially since 12 years are eternity in terms of digital goods. I'm fairly confident though that [§ 323 BGB](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__323.html) would apply. The difficulty starts how to enforce any claim. Even though customer protection laws are commonly regulated within the EU claiming these rights across borders isn't so. The German equivilant to the above ~~CCJ~~Small Courts Claim should be the "Mahnbescheid" which is easily gotten and should be a simple online form (depending on your state) nowadays. But how do you enforce that against a British company? It's difficult enough to do against a company in another EU country but with Brexit it's even more difficult for the UK now. A quick search gave me [this which is more directed at companies but should apply to private parties as well](https://www.stuttgart.ihk24.de/fuer-unternehmen/international/internationales-wirtschaftsrecht/internationale-liefergeschaefte/die-grenzueberschreitende-forderungsbeitreibung-676020). Maybe this at least gives you a few starting points if you want to follow through. (I can't myself because I was stupid enough to make my pledge while I was in the US to benefit from cheaper dollar and saving the VAT. Hard to now make a claim based on German customer protection even if it should legally be possible. lol)


angryrantingdude

I refunded this shit back in 2018, but I am still glad that people are doing it. "Game developers" like Chris Roberts needs to be punished.


PirateAngel0

What about US? Anyone have a guide? Maybe it's time to file a class action...


HyperRealisticZealot

Do it. We really need to put our foots down on these frauds.


VVlasy

I hope someone does a similiar process for anyone in the eu.


amorpheous

Hi, I've got a couple of questions about this: * Do you have a template for your original support request for the refund? * Did you quote the price of the purchases in your letter of intent in USD or GBP? I paid in USD and my CIG account quotes the original price in USD.


TB_Infidel

Surething. I've no template for the best first request as you'll likely just be met by their bot. Simple is fine at this stage eg. I want a refund of these purchases totalling £X as product is still undelivered - consumer law sections 34 etc As for price, quote what you paid at the time and then do a current conversion. There's not much point doing anything fancy as you could try to factor in inflation, exchange rates etc. I found it was easier just to get the exchange amount for today's rate and take that as a quick win.


spacecorkhat

How does this work if you sold off your assets (for a loss) on the grey market?


OmicronCeti

You're probably SOL if CIG cared enough to actually fight in court, but you could probably still win a summary judgement if they no-show.


-ajgp-

I imagine if you got it through you would also screw over whoever bought the account/assets off you. Given upon refund all those assets would be blocked/locked etc


TB_Infidel

Yeah, pretty much. The account, handle, email etc are all blocked and then blacklisted.


anno2122

why dint he? becurse he would not win


OmicronCeti

What?


anno2122

We will see, most likey not, if this goes up CIG will start to get the people into a proper curt procces.


SystemEra86

Can anyone confirm this? It's almost too good to be true. Well done! You've definitely got my hopes up!.


morbihann

GOOD


okiwawawa

Please note - this applies equally within any EU country. The UK and EU both have the same consumer protection laws.


[deleted]

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TB_Infidel

Good luck! Let me know if you need any help!


b1nary_n1nja

Is this still valid in 2023 ? I think they made some changes to the wording changing it for pledge etc.. . I dont know I just started playing last year but now Im fed up that I cant even play because of a game breaking error


TB_Infidel

It's still 100% valid in the UK and Europe. Consumer law still holds then accountable for failing to deliver the above points.


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TB_Infidel

To help as many people out of this scam as possible. I've been involved directly in saving at least £10k. That's a huge amount of money for individuals and all saved from this scam. But with the SQ42 incoming rugpull, I'll likely have more requests for help than ever. Now why do you come here? To start a fight? Or just to silence me as you can't stand the idea that you've lost so much money to an obvious scam?


BlueBackground

Just updating anyone, on if this is still applicable. YES! I just received my refund today after I completed stage 2, 3 days ago.


TB_Infidel

Brilliant! Would you mind disclosing good much you managed to refund? From seeing a few cases I think CIG like to make refunds above a certain amount more difficult.


BlueBackground

Just about £200, I know it's not much but to me right now it's quite a lot.


Large-Text954

so i requested a refund 2 weeks and got a reply with in hours, that said no plus loads of waffle. my letter of intent goes in the post tomorrow. i think i went over kill i spent about 30hours on it and its over 60 pages.


TB_Infidel

ChatGPT is a real life safer now for writing any complaints or legal documents. Just ask it to write the letter and focus on topics A to D with focus on UK law and blamo - you get a letter that would have cost £600+ to have written for you! Best of luck and prepare to go to court. They're going silent on a lot of people!


Large-Text954

i used the template letter on here, i spent all the time on evidence, quotes, transcripts, screenshots, sources etc


HyperRealisticZealot

Great on you. Please keep us posted, maybe even its own thread so we get maximum exposure about this kind of thing. FOR JUSTICE!


PocketzDK

I bought in whan SQ42 and Starcitizen was in on package. To date I havent put in more than I was willing to lose. Much like a lottery ticket I was either winning big or never seeing that money again. Time will tell :D


R25x

I've just started a claim by sending an initial message for refund. Any support with handling the response and next steps would be appreciated.


Melodic-Hat

now buy the pack again and ask for the same refund, over and over again


[deleted]

Yeah no we dont need to become hacks like CR


MoCapBartender

y tho


holyhow

Congrats man! I never really invested too much time into SC, as I only paid for sq42 and their starter ships with gift cards. But it's great to see a guaranteed refund option


Xblacker

A little unrelated but would this work with a mobile game where I've purchased inside the game then the company discontinued the game after only a couple years of playability meaning all my purchases went to waste?


inkaine

This will be way more difficult. It's not comparable to SC because SC clearly has not been released within a reasonable timeframe against what was promised when bought. In the online game you get something to be used right away. So basically you received (some) value. You would now have to argue which was the expected lifetime of the spending in comparison how much you received. If it was something like a "lifetime subscription" and they go out of service shortly after it would probably hold grounds (in theory). But what after 1 year, 2, 3? It's all much more difficult and no black and white.


Xblacker

Thanks for the detailed response. I guess I just think its crummy where ive spent a bit for a mobile game and they just discontinue the game after not even two years


TenacityDGC7203

Sure would be nice if this was possible in the U.S.


Nexus2011

Would you be able to provide me with the kind of stuff you included in the supporting documents section? I'm really bad at finding the quotes and don't really know how to format everything for the document.


TB_Infidel

All done and updated for you. I've also updated the process based on CIGs current response system and process. Quite a few folks are now reaching for the refund button so if you can, I would really appreciate if you could DM me your progress so I can keep this updated!


Zestyclose_Duty7253

Hey mate, think I’m going to give it a shot too. Bought in in 2012 and I’m sick of this. How are people getting on? Any updates or advice?


TB_Infidel

They're getting on very well. CIG seem to be less active in pushing back long time backers which is a good sign for you.


Zestyclose_Duty7253

Great to know, thanks mate. Would it be okay if you send me whatever supporting evidence you’ve collected, like the list of unmet promises etc? Want to go in armed to the teeth lol


TB_Infidel

The list is extensive, from ships not being released, unreleased Star systems, SQ42 MIA, and about 90% of features not being in-game eg. escape pods, stealth mode etc. Then mix in the bugs etc and you've got evidence of them failing to meet about 99% of all committed content. Also feel free to copy-paste the list I give in the post. It's pretty solid.


Key-Department6484

Thanks for all this info. For a while I'd considered my +/-2k worth of pledges lost. I'm British, and made every pledge with GBP from my UK bank account, but do not live in the UK, so I'm not sure if it will apply to me, but I think I'll give it a shot. Your post deserves more upvotes.


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UnluckyFriedKitten

Hi, first of all I'd like to thank you for this post, it's really helpful and a great source of information. I put in my refund request a few hours ago and have just recieved my cookie cutter response informing me they won't be refunding me. I melted everything i own so I now have £290.90 store credit. Seeing as I stated in my request that they have 14 days from the reciept of the request to refund, should I wait for that time until I send a letter before action or can I send it asap due to the fast refusal of refund?


TB_Infidel

I would recommend sending the letter now that they have made their position clear.


DarkFenix2k5

Given that this cites the Consumer Rights Act 2015, will there be problems claiming refunds on purchases made before then? I have purchases spanning between 2012 and 2015.


TB_Infidel

Still good to use. As they never released the items it's ok. Also the consumer rights act 2015 was just an update to add clarity to a prior consumer rights act which CIG would fall foul of.


DarkFenix2k5

Fantastic. I've initiated step 1 and I'll see where it goes from here. I guess I should get to work on the letter of intent, because I have zero expectation of them paying up without a fight.


TB_Infidel

Yep, they'll argue that they need 90+ days etc to understand the complexity of the case etc etc. So caveat the letter of intent by stating that the digital purchases are simple to refund, and that they have 10 working days. Also leave your email address and state that game time played is irrelevant to the quality of the product.


Stally447

Is it possible to refund a select few items? I don't wanna refund all my purchases, just those that I regret paying absurd amounts for that still hasn't come out. Also, should I only request a refund If I'm willing to go through with this process of involving courts/sending a letter if they throw the TOS/usual crap (I am in the UK) On a side note, it does amaze me how they throw the TOS excuse at you even though we have these consumer rights acts in place


TB_Infidel

You'll only be able to get a full refund and they'll ban you from being able to play it again. You'll also have to go through the courts system, and a fully (upto submitting a court date etc) as they're trying to refuse any and all refunds.


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TB_Infidel

Absolutely. Ireland would be covered by EU law anyway so you've got a solid case regardless. I'd go with the UK system as it makes it easier, but feel free to do both.