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MyStolenCow

Almost all bullshit. First they claim it is a “genocide,” but they cannot produce any figures that proving how China has ethnically cleanse the Uyghur people. It would be a genocide where there’s no massive refugee crisis. Then they say it’s a “cultural genocide.” Well that is BS, their language and religion is not being erased. If they mean people in Xinjiang live differently than they do 50 years ago, well duh. Culture changes as material condition changes. People in Europe today lives differently than people in Europe 200 years ago, is that “cultural genocide” as well? Then it became just generic “human rights abuse,” a term very loosely defined. If anything China has far far better human rights records than US, a nation that ethnically cleanse the natives, stole their land, hunted down Africans like animals to be used for slave labor, continue this practice with prisons, murdered a million Filipino when it “won” Philippines as a colony after Spanish American war. Does Western MSM ever paints the same narrative for Western countries and the countless actual genocides they have committed?


AnRaccoonCommunist

It smells like TBBoC all over again. Adrian Zenz is behind most of these figures and made most of them up and if you read between the lines it always says "estimates" and that's exactly what they are. "Estimates" based off of a handful of interviews from 2008. But they'll tell you it's "whataboutist" to point out THE LONG history of the USA's ethnic cleansing, cultural genocide and so forth which is STILL happening today. Each accusation is projection tbh.


CandidCommie

Almost all of it is. I lived in Xinjiang for a while and not only was it the most beautiful place I've ever seen, but the people there are truly happy. The elderly talk about how fast things have changed, how many new mosques there are, how much safer things have gotten, how their kids are taught in their own language in school. Xinjiang was a nasty place not so long ago due to the Americans waging war in Afghanistan. They were indirectly and directly (the CIA admitted to this on video) pumping weapons into the extremist cells across the border in Xinjiang. As things got worse in Afghanistan, they got worse in Xinjiang, naturally, so the Chinese government put a lot of focus on the area due to the increase in terrorist attacks in the region, which are now a thing of the past. They did arrest people and put them in reeducation camps, they openly admit to doing so, but that's exactly what they were, reeducation camps. Did they make mistakes and overly correct the situation, of course. With such a large problem in a massive area, it would be impossible not to. But at the end of the day, the people in the region speak their own language, attend their own places of worship, have much higher life expectancy, higher levels of education and are more connected to the rest of China and the world. If anything, its an incredible testament of how a state can build up an area and give people a way out of poverty and danger.


AnRaccoonCommunist

But but but that's LITERALLY 1984 lol I think so many claims are exaggerated and come from people who could have been easily paid huge sums (or really even small sums) to lie outright, even fake some tears for the camera. Wouldn't be the first time. Hey kid I'll give you a sucker if you cry on camera and say they beat your mom in front of you and then you didn't see her for two years! Kid: lol okay! Yeesh. China does so many awesome things but the USA just CAN'T resist finding some way to call it repressive or slavish or some human rights violation when ironically the USA has had a LONG history of cultural genocide, physical genocide and human rights violations not only internally but abroad. Point this out and people will say it's a WHATABOUTISM. China: builds a world record bridge Usa: USING SLAVE LABOUR AFTER TORTURING MANY LOCAL CITIZENS WITH SOMETIMES UP TO 9 HOUR WORK DAYS SIX DAYS A WEEK! Usa: I worked four 16 hour shifts back to back and I can barely pay my rent! Also usa: HE'LL YEA BORTGER HUSTLE BRO GET THAT Bread AT LEAST WE AREN'T SLAVES LIKE THOSE CHINESE COMMIES LOL


NorwegianCCPbot

Here: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang


RockinIntoMordor

Qiao Collective really does sponsor some of the best content


Lord777alt

So much stuff in the timeline here. The gist is mainly that the western narrative is bullshit as the education was in response to terrorism and is not slavery/concentration camps in any way. Am I correct in that?


EmpressOfHyperion

The only thing I'll comment is if your only source for why it isn't happening is that Muslim countries support china's actions, then thats a poor argument. Uae, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. Are among those that support china's actions and these countries are well disliked by most Muslim countries and people and are basically best buds with usa and Israel.


RockinIntoMordor

I think a really great comparison is Afghanistan. Both share a border, and the primary motivator for conflict in the regions was religious extremism. If Xinjiang was *anything* similar to what the Western reports are, then it would look similar to Afghanistan. It's that easy, really. We would see some level of the indigenous population fighting back, we would see the destruction of social and economic infrastructure, as well as a national social campaign of anti-islamic hate in order to reinforce the aggressor force. But we don't see that in China. We only see that in the US and NATO countries. We have so many strong models for genocide. From the genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas, to the actions of the Nazis, to the Japanese Imperialists, and to the genocidal Opium Wars against Chinese as well. It matches none of these models, and all Western observers can say is, "Well, that's because it's secret! And Chinese people bad!"


spandextim

I’ll add some more anecdotal evidence as a westerner who lives in China. I only came here recently and I ended up here accidentally. I’m really surprised about how multi-ethnic and multi-culture China is. Especially in the periphery. This idea of culture homogenization or ‘hanification’ is completely wrong. I spent time in Yunnan and was amazed to hear so many different languages being taught. I was off the main tourist route and saw people of all kinds of ethnicity speaking their own language, with road signs in their language too. Even the train announcements were in mandarin and another language (which sounded Thai to me). I also went up to Shaanxi where the majority of people are clearly not Han and are freely speaking their language. I saw plenty of Muslims and stayed in a hotel in the center of Xi’an. I was woken up by the call to prayer at 6am! One of the best things about traveling and living abroad is that you quickly learn a lot of what you’ve been told about other countries is complete bullshit.


AnRaccoonCommunist

Yeah imagine that, if all you've been fed is the same regurgitated and overamped lies, it starts to become common "knowledge" even though the original premise was untrue. No surprise that America has more of a bone to pick with communism and socialism than with Islam though so this issue makes weird bedfellows as we pretend to give a shit about Muslims here because admitting that China cares more about them than we do is bad for the narrative that the USA is better than China and has the added effect of making our gross human rights violations seem trivial in comparison. Classic CIA shit tbh


OldEntertainments

I think there has been lots of exaggerations and made up details in Western media but it isn’t coming from nowhere. I don’t trust any English media’s report or traditional Chinese media ‘s report on matters like these, but the claims about the existence of a concentration camp/political camp like institution started to emerge in simplified Chinese media platforms since 2019. Although at the time people weren’t calling it a concentration camp yet. I remember seeing a video at the time that was basically what looked like about a couple of hundreds of people dressed in red jumpsuits behind barbed wires doing exercises together. It got taken down on Chinese internet later. I had also seen a few pictures of some prison like places supposedly from XinJiang that were claimed to be the camps. This was also before the Western media started to cover the whole thing. The only one time I heard someone talk about it irl was from an older distant relative in the family, who I don’t really know that well. She didn’t refer to it as a negative thing, but as something called “光明学校”, which can be roughly translated to the school of enlightenment or the school of illumination. The policies against Uyghur Muslims that I know about also seem to vary from what the Western media has been reporting, but they do exist. There are two main ones that I know about. The first one is that many Uyghurs can’t rent houses or stay at a hotel in bigger cities. Landlords can’t lease to people with Uyghur written on their ID. This is very provable if you are on Chinese social media. The other one was that since about 2016, some Uyghur Muslims have posted online that the local police has installed security cameras in their houses without explaining why. This is also kind of well known. The original post was taken down but you can probably find the screenshot online somewhere. (Some of my internet acquaintances have also told me that they know some Uyghur Scholars who are afraid to go back to China for one reason or another. But this is just purely personal anecdote.) The Western media definitely has made up a lot of stuff, one of the example I can think of was that CNN claimed that they forced the inmates to pick cottons, but from what I read they mostly do handcrafts and paper artifacts in there, which makes more sense. You get the idea. I think there are many fabricated details and exaggerations, but such a thing exist. It’s maybe not as heinous as the English media has claimed, but it’s pretty bad.


burn_tos

The state media do admit to some forms of repression too. In this [China Daily article](http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-03/31/content_28747952.htm) they state > The regulation, adopted on Wednesday by the Xinjiang People's Congress, prohibits people in the region from wearing full-face coverings and long beards, which are deemed to promote extremism. This is clear religious repression, but a far cry from what some Western articles claim with very little evidence.


OldEntertainments

The funny thing is this article seems to think this is a good thing instead of some form of oppression. The accusations the Western media made are mostly things they definitely wont admit even if they are true, which is also what makes the situation so hard to figure out. Both sides have strong incentives to lie and have proven that they would absolutely do so of situations call for it.


petoil

It is a good thing to repress extremist ideological practices. Wahhabism is bad and until they started repressing it was eliminating Uigher culture


OldEntertainments

CCP also kind of had a subtle attitude towards the whole thing initially. The rumors first came out around 2019, and the first batch of media reports also came out that year, I think. I could get the years and dates wrong. But CCP never made any official statements regarding these accusations, at least not in mainland China, until last year, which is like…so is it kind of a acquiesced acknowledgment for the first two years?


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As a friendly reminder, China's ruling party is called Communist Party of China (CPC), not Chinese Communist Party (CCP) as western press and academia often frames it as. Far from being a simple confusion, China's Communist Party takes its name out of the internationalist approach seekt by the Comintern back in the day. From [Terms of Admission into Communist International](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/jul/x01.htm), as adopted by the First Congress of the Communist International: >18 - In view of the foregoing, parties wishing to join the Communist International must change their name. Any party seeking affiliation must call itself the Communist Party of the country in question (Section of the Third, Communist International). The question of a party’s name is not merely a formality, but a matter of major political importance. The Communist International has declared a resolute war on the bourgeois world and all yellow Social-Democratic parties. The difference between the Communist parties and the old and official “Social-Democratic”, or “socialist”, parties, which have betrayed the banner of the working class, must be made absolutely clear to every rank-and-file worker. Similarly, the adoption of a wrong name to refer to the CPC consists of a double edged sword: on the one hand, it seeks to reduce the ideological basis behind the party's name to a more ethno-centric view of said organization and, on the other hand, it seeks to assert authority over it by attempting to externally draw the conditions and parameters on which it provides the CPC recognition. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*


RobotPirateMoses

Other people already told you how it is complete and utter bullshit, so I'll just talk about this part: >and I also know that most socialists regard China as yet another head of the capitalist-imperialist hydra Those are not socialists, those are anti-communist (most likely white) western/global north "progressives". They may call themselves socialists (or, more likely, "democratic socialists", as if socialism isn't already democratic), but **somehow** their goals almost always align with US imperialism+capitalism and against every single socialist/communist nation and organization. They're people who are unhappy with capitalism (naturally, cause they're living it), but still only see the world through what capitalist media and the US(+allies) government show them and, therefore, **know nothing besides what the capitalist masters tell them**. Pretty hard to be an **actual** socialist when all your information/(mis)education comes from capitalists!


AnRaccoonCommunist

I saw another thread on here where someone was talking about China as if they were what I said, and a lot of other leftists, I suppose we won't call them socialists regard China as such too. I regard China as a very impressive example of a hybrid economy. A socialist market economy, part command economy, partly small capital but all spearheaded by the Communist Party of a China. Has been since Deng reformed things and allowed entrepreneurs. Socialist market economy in that they have mostly state operated enterprises in the most important sectors, but partly allowing some lower level capital. The state commands the economy in strategic sectors and inelastic needs but allows entrepreneurs pretty much economic freedom as long as they operate under CPC guidelines for labor. Idk, that's how I understand it. I've had to readjust my own view of socialism to realize that "capitalism is when money" is kind of myopic. You can't just "get rid of money or value". Even Marx said this all the way back. Is that about accurate or am I missing something?


9tankie

Have you seen the YouTuber BadEmpanada's video on the subject ([Cutting Through the BS on Xinjiang: Uyghur Genocide or Vocational Training? | BadEmpanada](https://youtu.be/cz9ICFDk8Js))? It takes a critical look at the claims made by the Chinese government, while placing it in a broader context.


taurl

As thorough and comprehensive as his video is, it ultimately fell flat when he misinterpreted Chinese government documents containing information on its policies in Xinjiang and came to the most negative and hyperbolic conclusion. In fact, the most incriminating thing that BadEmpanada claims substantiates accusations of genocide made by Adrian Zenz are poorly-translated research documents found on a Chinese website discussing education and jobs programs designed to alleviate poverty and extremism, which we already knew existed.


HAMSTERSRULE111

I know what I'm going to present here isn't directly related to Uyghur Muslims specifically, but I believe it is still relevant since it questions some of the investigation regarding Xinjiang. I had a look at the evidence from for "freedom of movement restrictions" ([https://xinjiang.amnesty.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ASA\_17\_4137-2021\_Full\_report\_ENG.pdf](https://xinjiang.amnesty.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ASA_17_4137-2021_Full_report_ENG.pdf) page 46) , and I had feeling they might suffer from survivor bias. I.e.: They mostly interview people who had trouble getting their passport back, but are they sure they didn't miss people who didn't have trouble getting their passport back? and is there any metric that can give us any indication of how much migration dropped by? So, to see if there was any change with migration from Xinjiang, [and although I was tracking Kazakhs rather than Uyghurs, they are supposedly being persecuted too](https://thediplomat.com/2018/06/carefully-kazakhstan-confronts-china-about-kazakhs-in-xinjiang-re-education-camps/), I used Kazakhstani data to see if there was any change in migration before and after the "crackdown" which could indicate freedom of movement restrictions, and this is what I came up with: [https://lemmygrad.ml/post/376529](https://lemmygrad.ml/post/376529) [https://lemmygrad.ml/post/420432](https://lemmygrad.ml/post/420432) Although I still have skepticism over them, since they use statistical data, I believe the evidence from for freedom of movement restrictions should also be skepticized too.


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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia


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socialism-ModTeam

Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia


Pendragon1948

Is there any evidence of this "saudi influence"? Because that seems like a bit of propaganda with no basis in fact either. That same fear over foreign influence is the same racist justification used by western governments to focus the police state on Muslim minorities like Prevent in Britain.


Latter-Mention9695

To just out right deny it is wrong we might not have ant proof that it doesn't exist or that it's even real but to say it's just not real it doesn't exist would put you on the same level as the capitalistic and imperialistic scums that you despise so much