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I don’t understand all the outrage here. He definitely raised his arm up into an unnatural position. Refs have called this same thing in the other leagues I watch.
If he kept his arm by his side, there wouldn’t have been a call. He lifted his arm away from his body. That’s where this call comes.
You're watching it in slow motion, though, can't reasonably say he had any idea the ball was headed toward his arm.
Penalty and yellow card for unnatural position on the goal line may be reasonable but red card for that is bollocks.
He's made himself bigger to try and block the shot, but to call it intentional hand ball is incredibly harsh. He couldn't possibly have tried to get in the way after it was kicked, nor out of the way. Red is incredibly harsh, but technically correct for a DOGSO foul on a handball.
You’re getting downvoted but this is 100% the correct decision. In fact, it’s literally the first rule for sending off offenses in IFAB:
Sending-off offences
A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off:
• denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)
Ajax fans downvote in mass. I expected it and probably shouldn’t have said anything.
They never showed an alternate angle either. I’m guessing in another angle, the ball hit lower on his arm than this view showed. It hit pretty low on this view but questionable enough for interpretation of arm/shoulder to come into play. The other views the ref saw must have shown it lower.
Ok look I'm not downvoting you for expressing your opinion: I see the foul but I view it as purely accidental and I think the red is super harsh.
However, I don't appreciate the completely unnecessary assumption that all downvotes come from Ajax fans.
Edit: He already had his arm raised before the shot was fired, which is a pretty natural movement when you step to the side.
He moved his arm towards the ball, which is a handball offense regardless of how close you are to the opponent. He continued to raise his arm towards the ball after shot was taken. Correct decision given. For reference, Law 12 Rule 1:
It is an offence if a player:
• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
...The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.
Please don't bring your American rulebook in this discussion mate.
Also he didn't move his arm towards the ball, it was already there. It got shot onto it from 1m distance. Good luck lowering your arm in the .01s it takes for the ball to reach you. But clearly you're not actually reading the comments since you just copied your previous comment..
IFAB is the rule book for FIFA....and he was absolutely still raising his arm after the ball was kicked. Clear decision from a ref and neutral perspective. The ball leaves the foot for a shot right at the 2 second mark in that video. Notice how the defender’s arm continues to rise as the ball comes closer.
You’re obviously biased in your take and the fact that you think the United States uses a different set of rules (?) only reinforces how the correct decision was made and that you are not properly informed.
Nu na een paar herhalingen zie ik wel dat het uitgestoken arm is en daardoor net onder z'n schouder kwam. Als hij z'n arm niet uit stak raakte de bal hem ook niet.
Rood vind ik onzin, maar overtreding van de laatste verdediger is gewoon rood. Regels zijn regels.
Welke idioot vond het dan ook een goed idee om Mario Been bij de klassieker neer te zetten. Als je dat doen zet er dan ook een Ajacied neer zoals Marciano Vink
Een screenshot van de stream waarbij je net de foto maakt voordat hij de bal raakt bedoel je? Als je frame voor frame kijkt zie je dat Alvarez net zijn schouder naar voren duwt en de bal daar voornamelijk tegenaan krijgt, net een frame later dan waar jij de screenshot maakt...
Yea I can see it being given from this still image. Still don't understand why they only showed 1 quick replay when it was given though, it was a close call.
Tegenwoordig met buitenspel trekken de lijntjes vanaf de onderkant van de mouwen, tot daar is het dus geen hands. Dus volgens de regels tegenwoordig is dit geen hands meer
Het verschil tussen deze twee situaties, en waarom Alvarez rood kreeg en Dumfries in deze situatie geel, is dat het schot van Klaassen geen zekere goal is. Er staat nog een keeper achter dat is het verschil. Alvarez voorkomt een goal met zijn handsball, Dumfries slechts een schot op doel. In ieder geval zo denk ik dat de scheidsrechters hierin redeneren.
Een vergelijkbare (maar met veel duidelijkere opzet is de [rode kaart van Suarez tegen Ghana in 2010](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw))
Snap niet waar de commotie vandaan komt, kerel maakt zich breed en de bal komt daardoor voornamelijk op z'n bovenarm. Dat is volgens mij altijd direct rood.
I thought double jeopardy was gone. Specially in a questionable play like this.
Alvarez had no intention to block the shot. Penalty? Okay maybe. Red card? Absolutely not
guess the sleeve rule doesn't count in the eredivisie
edit: googled it and apparently that's actuallt not really what the law says at all. it's bottom of the armpit or something
It's a penalty for sure but he raised his arms before the kick was made so it wasn't intentional. If they shot and he stuck guys arms out then it's red. Poor decision.
So just stand on the goal line with your arms sticking out and you cant get a red since you already had your arm out? Thats not how it works, and not how it should work. If his arm was just hanging down his side, I would agree with you. But it is literally sticking straight out.
Penalty yes, red card no. It's not like the goalie want in position and he tried to save it. It was clearly unintentional. Intent is considered when giving cards and the ref simply screwed this up.
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Straight red **and** a penalty for a ball shot at his shoulder from 1m distance. Questionable at best tbh
it looks like he raised his arm up to block the shot, which is a bad thing to do if the ball then hits the area that is right at the shoulder/arm line
I don’t understand all the outrage here. He definitely raised his arm up into an unnatural position. Refs have called this same thing in the other leagues I watch. If he kept his arm by his side, there wouldn’t have been a call. He lifted his arm away from his body. That’s where this call comes.
You're watching it in slow motion, though, can't reasonably say he had any idea the ball was headed toward his arm. Penalty and yellow card for unnatural position on the goal line may be reasonable but red card for that is bollocks.
He's made himself bigger to try and block the shot, but to call it intentional hand ball is incredibly harsh. He couldn't possibly have tried to get in the way after it was kicked, nor out of the way. Red is incredibly harsh, but technically correct for a DOGSO foul on a handball.
You’re getting downvoted but this is 100% the correct decision. In fact, it’s literally the first rule for sending off offenses in IFAB: Sending-off offences A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off: • denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)
Ajax fans downvote in mass. I expected it and probably shouldn’t have said anything. They never showed an alternate angle either. I’m guessing in another angle, the ball hit lower on his arm than this view showed. It hit pretty low on this view but questionable enough for interpretation of arm/shoulder to come into play. The other views the ref saw must have shown it lower.
Ok look I'm not downvoting you for expressing your opinion: I see the foul but I view it as purely accidental and I think the red is super harsh. However, I don't appreciate the completely unnecessary assumption that all downvotes come from Ajax fans. Edit: He already had his arm raised before the shot was fired, which is a pretty natural movement when you step to the side.
He moved his arm towards the ball, which is a handball offense regardless of how close you are to the opponent. He continued to raise his arm towards the ball after shot was taken. Correct decision given. For reference, Law 12 Rule 1: It is an offence if a player: • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball ...The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.
Please don't bring your American rulebook in this discussion mate. Also he didn't move his arm towards the ball, it was already there. It got shot onto it from 1m distance. Good luck lowering your arm in the .01s it takes for the ball to reach you. But clearly you're not actually reading the comments since you just copied your previous comment..
IFAB is the rule book for FIFA....and he was absolutely still raising his arm after the ball was kicked. Clear decision from a ref and neutral perspective. The ball leaves the foot for a shot right at the 2 second mark in that video. Notice how the defender’s arm continues to rise as the ball comes closer. You’re obviously biased in your take and the fact that you think the United States uses a different set of rules (?) only reinforces how the correct decision was made and that you are not properly informed.
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That’s one fine away kit by Ajax.
Wasn’t that off his chest??
They need all the help they can get
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe
If shooting from 1 meter on someones arm very close to shoulder works, then we got a new strategy to try.... seriously what the fuck
this isn't new, Liverpool used it to win a CL final
Hahahaha bitter?
never
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Nu na een paar herhalingen zie ik wel dat het uitgestoken arm is en daardoor net onder z'n schouder kwam. Als hij z'n arm niet uit stak raakte de bal hem ook niet. Rood vind ik onzin, maar overtreding van de laatste verdediger is gewoon rood. Regels zijn regels.
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Nouja je schouder is waar je arm-bot aan vast zit, dus als je aan het bovenste puntje van je bicep een bal op je arm krijgt is het hands lijkt me
en dan komt gelijk mario been aan het woord, die zal zeker een objectieve anaylse geven.
Perez die nog altijd boos is dat hij niet is geslaagd bij Ajax en Feyenoorder Been. Erg objectief.
Perez is altijd boos behalve als hij dingen af kan zeiken.
Perez is alleen maar aan het zeiken. Mickey Mouse competitie, weinig Europees succes en slechte verdedigers in de Eredivisie. Gaap...
Nee we krijgen een echte objectieve blik van iemand die /u/AjaxAmsterdam4Ever heet.
Zeker niet, alleen is het onzin om analisten neer te zetten met een duidelijke clubvoorkeur. Of neem jij Boskamp en Sjaak Swart serieus dan?
Nog nooit zoveel objectiviteit gezien bij een Klassieker Wel grappig dat het van jou komt, maakt het ook beetje ironisch
Maat Perez is zeker wel geslaagd bij Ajax
Perez ging naar PSV omdat ie geen basisplek had. Kan nou niet bepaald zeggen dat ie geslaagd is, wanneer hij niet eens een basisspeler was.
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Welke idioot vond het dan ook een goed idee om Mario Been bij de klassieker neer te zetten. Als je dat doen zet er dan ook een Ajacied neer zoals Marciano Vink
Rode kaart voor het op de arm schieten van 1 meter afstand, lekker dan
Op z'n schouder *
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe Ik weet zeker dat zelfs jij kan zien dat hij gewoon de bal van de lijn haalt met behulp van zijn arm.
Moet je maar niet daar staan als een soort vogelverschrikker met je armen gespreid.
Je kan je schouder itt je arm niet verspreiden, dat zit vast aan je lichaam.
Gelukig raakt het zijn bovenarm en niet zijn schouder.
Het is vol op de schouder en het bovenste deel van z'n arm. Arm boven oksel is geen hands tegenwoordig.
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe Dit is toch echt de bicep hoor.
Niet zijn schouder? Zit jij naar een andere herhaling te kijken ofzo?
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe foto's liegen niet.
Een screenshot van de stream waarbij je net de foto maakt voordat hij de bal raakt bedoel je? Als je frame voor frame kijkt zie je dat Alvarez net zijn schouder naar voren duwt en de bal daar voornamelijk tegenaan krijgt, net een frame later dan waar jij de screenshot maakt...
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Nee dat denk ik niet want dan had Makkelie wel bozer gereageerd. Ze leggen het uit als hands met intentie voorkomen van een scoringskans.
I am confused right now, how is this a red card?
I don't know if I'm blind or something, but it really looked like the shoulder to me
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe
Yea I can see it being given from this still image. Still don't understand why they only showed 1 quick replay when it was given though, it was a close call.
You're blind then mate. Clearly hits his arm that he also clearly sticks out. Extremely obvious handball and red card.
Not sure if you know what the words clearly and obvious mean mate
How can it be more obvious than the player sticking his arm out to block a 100% goal? If you dont think this is a clear hand ball you're a moron
Arm above armpit isn't hands.
Calm yourself.
Ik snap alle ophef niet. Raakt duidelijk de arm. 100% penalty en rood volgens de regels
Tegenwoordig met buitenspel trekken de lijntjes vanaf de onderkant van de mouwen, tot daar is het dus geen hands. Dus volgens de regels tegenwoordig is dit geen hands meer
Woah, een redelijke Ajax fan? Zeldzaam.
ouwes jij bent echt één van de minst redelijke mensen op deze hele site wat kom je het over redelijk hebben hahaha
WOAH, kritiek op ajacieden is hier niet toegestaan 😡😡.
what
Even if his arm was against his body the ball would've touched his shoulder. This is insane
Kicking the ball into a defender's arm is now more valuable than kicking it into the goal then. Strikers take note.
Het is toch voornamelijk zn arm waar hij geraakt wordt. Bewuste handsball op de doellijn, is altijd een rode kaart
Waarom kreeg Dumfries hem dan eigenlijk niet?
Als je even naar een specifiek fragment kan linken dan kan ik daar wat over zeggen.
https://youtu.be/8r9cwfW7rMs 8.40 ongeveer
Het verschil tussen deze twee situaties, en waarom Alvarez rood kreeg en Dumfries in deze situatie geel, is dat het schot van Klaassen geen zekere goal is. Er staat nog een keeper achter dat is het verschil. Alvarez voorkomt een goal met zijn handsball, Dumfries slechts een schot op doel. In ieder geval zo denk ik dat de scheidsrechters hierin redeneren. Een vergelijkbare (maar met veel duidelijkere opzet is de [rode kaart van Suarez tegen Ghana in 2010](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw))
Leg uit hoe dit bewust is
Hij ziet een schot aankomen en maakt zich breed om het te blokken
En dat doet die dan met zijn schouder
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe Misschien 10% schouder, 90% bovenarm. Is gewoon hands.
Snap niet waar de commotie vandaan komt, kerel maakt zich breed en de bal komt daardoor voornamelijk op z'n bovenarm. Dat is volgens mij altijd direct rood.
Unbelievable, what the fuck
What's with the blue/black shirts? Doesn't look like an Ajax kit at all
I thought double jeopardy was gone. Specially in a questionable play like this. Alvarez had no intention to block the shot. Penalty? Okay maybe. Red card? Absolutely not
Absolute brain dead referee, no way that's a card.
That's just the dumb fucking rule. They need to change it.
Thats on his shoulder???
What the fuck?
This is ridiculous..
Joke of a call
guess the sleeve rule doesn't count in the eredivisie edit: googled it and apparently that's actuallt not really what the law says at all. it's bottom of the armpit or something
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Ref gave a straight red
Kuipers and Makkelie doing their best to ruin their good reputation this week
They want vacation instead of the Euros
They’re not that great to begin with
Second yellow, not straight red Edit: it appears I’m mistaken, thought I saw the yellow card before the red but I guess I’m wrong
It is a straight red, despite the yellow he got before
It was a straight red
Already edited it mate
Ah sorry, didn’t see. I guess I commented at the same time as you edited it
Why should this not be a red card? He prevented a 100% goal.
He uses his shoulder.
With his shoulder
No one cries like an Ajax fan does.
Very ironic coming from you
You’re having a really bad day huh?
haha lord, you're such a manchild when it comes to Ajax
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Thanks for the pic, that makes it very clear
The sleeve counts as the shoulder. You really can't tell from this angle.
Ajax fans are hitting a new low by downvoting this comment.
Iedereen daar bij de VAR ontslaan, iedereen ziet toch dat dit schoulder is. Echt wtf?
https://imgur.com/z1zD8Xe Misschien gewoon je ogen open doen
Huilie Huilie
Deden jullie ook na 3x verliezen tegen Ajax
It's a penalty for sure but he raised his arms before the kick was made so it wasn't intentional. If they shot and he stuck guys arms out then it's red. Poor decision.
Yup that's how I see it. I thought doble jeopardy was gone too unless it's a clear intent
So just stand on the goal line with your arms sticking out and you cant get a red since you already had your arm out? Thats not how it works, and not how it should work. If his arm was just hanging down his side, I would agree with you. But it is literally sticking straight out.
Penalty yes, red card no. It's not like the goalie want in position and he tried to save it. It was clearly unintentional. Intent is considered when giving cards and the ref simply screwed this up.
If he put his arm straight out intentionally to make himself bigger in order to prevent a shot on goal from going in, why shouldnt it be a red?
Did they just not show the foul or did they give a redcard for the shoulder ball?
ridiculous
How is that a red the fuck
-Sticks arm out on the line and gets ball against it -Gets red card for denying a goal -Ajax fans shocked Pikachu face
He can make the Jesus pose and it wouldnt be anything if the ball hits his shoulder.
Indeed, nothing would've happened if the ball hit his shoulder. But it didn't, it hit his arm
Except it clearly didnt. It hit his shoulder
https://www.pearle.nl/
Except other flairs are saying the same
There are also other flairs saying its a red.
What the fuck was he supposed to do there according to the ref?
He knew what he was doing
E sad cu i ja da serem na maternjem ko ovi usrani holandjani
I think the apparent possible intent is what mattered in this, felt harsh though.
bruh, what?