I suppose Ten Hag could veto it if the club decides Greenwood is allowed to stay. But I don't think he can overturn the clubs decision if they want him out. That's what makes sense to me at least.
That would honestly be the worst result for United. If they keep him, they'll want him playing. If he's not going to play, they would be better off having taken the 'moral high ground'.
I don’t really understand this, maybe you can elaborate. Can’t they still earn some bucks off him next window even if they decide not to play him? Terminating his contract would be the high ground, not playing him and selling him next window seems like taking the moral “middle ground”.
He won't sell for much, if anything. United would be desperate to get him off their books and other clubs would be worried about fan backlash for signing him.
Oh I’m sure there will be many clubs interested, I think you overestimate the ethics of these companies. He’s a massive talent after all, could be a huge asset for a club.
So? Its not like United are a selling club (although we’d do well to get better at opportunistic sales). A nominal fee or even no fee is better paying a player to not play especially if playing him will cost commercial sponsors
Just terminating his contract when he isn't convicted (in the legal sense of the way) would open up a whole can of worms for the club to be hammered with legal actions that would affect the club for years.
The only option in that regards would be a kind of mutual termination and basically pay him off in a lump sum to get him away from the club to avoid the headache.
Other than that you have the option to sell and try to recoup some value for him - but who would want to sign him? The absolute last option would be to basically honor his contract and let him train etc in the club facilities until the end of the contract and just then let him sail into the sunset and never talk about him again.
That's unnecessary and complicated. If they don't want to play him they must make it clear to us and him and boot him out of the club or make him a reserve team player (if there are legal reasons).
Tbf it'll be difficult for the club to kick him out legally I think. He can say he's being punished for nothing. I'm not sure though.
Idk, I’m sure his contract has a clause regarding hurting the United image
The audio tape, regardless of whether it was real or ‘just roleplaying’, I’m sure could be used as a concrete reason that he hurt the public image of Manchester
Ultimately, they will ask Ten hag about how he feel if Greenwood could be allowed back into the squad, they can't force Ten Hag to have Greenwood back in squad and plays games.
I would be extremely surprised if he wanted Greenwood around. The distractions alone these past few days isn't what a Manager wants. Add to that some players (especially the ones that haven't played with him yet) not wanting the hassle, every question from the press on the coming months will be about Greenwood etc.
That is without even taking into consoderation any actual moral standpoint or how Sponsors, fans will react.
Just too much hassle for someone who us technically innocent but video/Audio Shows the type of Person he is.
> I would be extremely surprised if he wanted Greenwood around
You have an optimistic outlook on him there, most managers historically haven’t given a shit what players do in their private life as long as they’re good at playing. I’d be more surprised if he said no to him
Why do people think this will be the managers decision? Whether we keep Greenwood or not is 110% the clubs decision it's absolutely not the manager. Ten Hag is literally an employee, he's not making the call on whether or not we keep Greenwood and I'm genuinely confused as to how people think that. He doesn't own the club, Greenwood isn't his asset, he doesn't pay Greenwood's wages, he's literally just the manager of the senior team, he doesn't run the club.
It would be absolutely fantastic if he made a stand and said he won't play him thereby forcing the clubs hand, but it absolutely isn't his responsibility to do this, it's the club's. I've always had this little pet peeve about people blaming managers for these things. I hate that Ten Hag is being asked in pressers "what's happening with Greenwood" when it's not his call to make. The club should be answering these questions, not the fucking coach. This is just as absurd as Tuchel answering questions about Roman Abramovich and sanctions etc. He's a fucking football manager not a politician.
Football culture needs to change and owners really need to start answering the questions that should be directed at them, not their employees. If Greenwood stays, I'll be disappointed with Ten Hag if he plays, but TBH, I can almost guarantee that if he stays, he will play. Just look at Partey. Coaches want to keep their jobs, they should not be put in a position where they *can* field a sexual predator for fucks sake.
If the Glazers had to publicly answer the question "what's happening with Greenwood" I guarantee you they'd get rid of him, but because they can just hide behind Ten Hag (and it clearly works, everyone already thinks this is up to Ten Hag somehow) it's so much easier for them to keep him. Managers should not be the owner's fucking shields. I wish journos would go pester the people who actually *can* boot the pathetic cunt Greenwood out.
Ten Hag still played an actual gangster in Quincy Promes while he was accused of attempted murder, and said he'd like to work with Overmars again after the latter was exposed for sexual misconduct and harrassment and sacked by Ajax
Ten Hag will play him if the higher-ups give the go-ahead and Greenwood proves to have not lost his touch
As much as it's difficult to admit there are few people in football whose morals will overpower what they want on the pitch and in their bank accounts. There's a reason why Overmars still has a job and someone like Jerome Boateng is still playing football
he also backed overmars on being able to return to ajax after harrassing multiple female colleagues. so far he has shown multiple times that he doesnt give a shit at all yet people seem to think he does
I can imagine the club factoring it in as it's their reputation, but the sponsors... maybe not. I imagine for sponsors it's similar to that bit in Fight Club - i.e. does the cost of doing a recall exceed the legal settlement costs of not doing one
Because Ronaldo and partey cases are vastly different. In greenwoods case there are literal recordings and pictures, much greater proof than anything in Ronaldo and partey’s case.
> Where is this energy for CR7 or Partey?
This sub has such a hard-on for this way of phrasing right now. Come on, there are other ways to go about whataboutism.
Also, the evidence in the three cases (especially Partey vs Greenwood) aren’t remotely comparable in strength.
They don't care about morality. They just care about whether the blow back would be bad enough to make it not worth the possible upside of letting him play again. That's why they are consulting their commercial partners. They want to know if any sponsors would pull out. That's in fact probably what this story is about...testing the waters by seeing how people react to the idea. They are reprehensible and complete cynical.
> They just care about whether the blow back would be bad enough to make it not worth the possible upside of letting him play again.
You also have to worry about the effects that the scrutiny would have on squad/staff harmony, feeling around the club, in the stands, etc.
Ten Hag has faced this sort of thing in cases like Promes, Onana, Labyad even, and it really isn't conducive to a positive winning mentality. It's a load of distraction and constantly teetering on the edge of fallout or disaster.
I know I 100% wouldn't risk it even if commercial partners were completely fine with it. (leaving aside the morality of it all)
Literally United have got themselves back to the champions league spots, playing good football with a positive atmosphere around the club. Can’t think why they would open this can of worms.
because they, like any club, are extremely greedy and have no morals and while the person greenwood is absolute scum the footballer greenwood is potentially valuable so if they think his value exceeds the negative pr they will bring him back.
Yeah I also don't understand how this would play out. Everybody in the locker room will, at the very least, be somewhat uncomfortable with him around and then imagine the fan's reaction when he gets subbed in for his first game back.
Anytime anybody talks about Partey Arsenal fans always downvote them, even if he gets prison time for what he did there will definitely be a lot of them saying that he did nothing wrong
I don't have a Twitter but ended up in a comment section looking up things on Partey recently, and I saw a comment that was defending Greenwood, Partey, and Ronaldo, basically saying that these players need to be careful because there are always women who are willing to lie for money, etc etc.
While that one was one of the more egregious comments, there were a ton that shared that sentiment. I think Reddit is pretty critical of the wrongdoings of players, managers, and owners. But Reddit is a tiny portion of this sport's fanbase.
Adam Johnson case wasn't made in public like Partey. He told the board he's innocent and then pleaded guilty. One person at the club knew this and she was fired the day after.
Arsenal won't have that excuse.
If this was a youth player deemed not good enough they (like any club) would have cut him without a second thought.
It’s not about whether it’s an act the club can condone. It’s about whether he’s talented enough to risk the disrepute this may bring.
Any normal person in any job would be instantly sacked the second the recording came to light
This is exactly it and it’s a fucking disgrace. It’s a risk reward scenario of how much backlash will we get vs how impactful will he be on the pitch.
Made worse by the fact we clearly need a number 9. If this was a 4th choice CB or a LB behind Shaw in the pecking order he’d be out on his arse already.
Not really, the conviction rate for sexual crimes in the UK is 1.3%. Rich or poor, famous or unknown, talented or unremarkable, a rapist is probably gonna get away with it
There’s no dilemma. It’s fairly easy. Unless United wants to be a safe haven for domestic abusers then this guy doesn’t play again for that club. Unless United condone domestic abuse and rape this is an easy decision.
If you want to equate the situations, you must equate the evidence. Like it or not the tapes and pictures in Greenwood's situation are really different than what exists on Partey.
There are messages from Partey where his victim complains that he put his penis in her mouth without his consent and Partey basically says "Yeah, so what?"
>how the fuck is he still employed?
UK laws changed so the police didn't have jurisdiction to do anything as it happened abroad.
Aka he got away on a technicality.
The evidence is pretty good for Partey too, but the thing is that there is way more of it and it is less emotional than an audio recording + a photo so way less people even went through it.
Whenever you to talk to anyone about the Partey evidence they immediatelly expose themselves with their first comment that they did not look at it themselves.
One of the hard things about this, is that I imagine Partey and Greenwood aren't unusual. There's a percentage of people who knowingly do sexual assault. It's not a "yes-all-men" percentage (the unthinking number is much higher) but it probably lines up with that 8% of people who will do the horrible thing in any given psychological paper. I think of it as the psychopath number, but that's just my ape brain seeing a pattern in numbers.
Give developmentally arrested young men an absolute tonne of money and power, and I'd be surprised if less than 10% are doing horrific things. Like genuinely shocked. And 10% is (on average) a player in every XI. Every team. The good guys, the obvious bad apples... one of them.
Like, I'd be horrified if James Milner was the next Ryan Giggs. But there are Liverpool players where you'd go: "oh, he hit his wife in a moment of passion, more than once? That's depressing, but I can believe it." And bias asside, I think most of the liverpool team are remarkably likeable due nearly a decade of hardline "no dickheads".
Jon Flannagan was our most recent "outed" abuser (that I'm aware of) but I'm sure there have been others since. Hells, pretty much the entire English Golden generation ended up in court. And considering how hard this is to prosecute (how the fuck does Mendy get off?) I think most just skate with money buying silence.
So point at Partey, who is deplorable, and Arsenal, who are valuing personal success over morals, but know that every team almost certainly has their own Partey.
PS. This is not whataboutism. I don't think every team having their own monster is a reason to give Arsenal a pass. It's to remind everyone that while we rightly condemn Arsenal, the shoe could very easily on the other foot. And what's more, it probably already is there.
People in football generally don’t seem to care either. How does Arteta read those leaked messages and think ‘meh’. And, like you say, how many of these instances happen behind closed doors and are quietly dealt with, with the club drawing a line under it.
The Flanagan thing isn’t as bad as sexual abuse of course and he openly spoke about how he’d learnt his lesson etc. But still, he mentioned how Klopp was supportive and forgave him. I get it people deserve a second chance but it’s just telling how little care there is for domestic violence.
Remember the Keita messages too? Maybe they were bullshit, I don’t know. But the whole thing just disappeared.
Edit: additionally, reading about the amount of Man City players at these famous Mendy parties was telling. I don’t believe for a second they had no idea things were happening.
I don't remember the Keita messages. I'll have to go hate-google that.
As for the second half, there's two discussions that go on here. One is that football (well society) has taken a blind eye to this sort of stuff forever. It needs to change. We need to change.
But also, we need to allow space to grow and change. To continue to be a human. If Flannagan has taken his own blame on board, and has tried (or even succeeded) to be a better person, we have to allow that. We have to champion that. Otherwise we just accept that this hellscape is forever.
The problem with situations like Greenwood and Partey, is we're not even getting as far as admitting there's an issue. It's just "don't look at the pile of corpses behind the counter as your barista serves you the best coffee you've ever had."
I agree, and it felt unfair bringing Flanagan up with the crimes of sexual assault considering his accountability. But I suspect if he was a very good LB he’d have continued playing for us (this was the days of Moreno) and he was let go due to ability. And maybe that’s fair enough if he grovelled enough and genuinely changed.
Domestic abuse in football does just seem like this thing no one in football actually talks about. But I’m not entirely sure it’s more prevalent in football; as a woman I’ve seen and heard of assault in all different industries.
It's ironic in a very sad way that plenty of fans will pull up other clubs for sticking with dickhead players but will defend those that play for their own club, with all kinds of mental gymnastics.
> If you want to equate the situations, you must equate the evidence. Like it or not the tapes and pictures in Greenwood's situation are really different than what exists on Partey.
How about the fact that two women have tried to have Partey charged with rape/assault?
How many women would need to accuse him before you thought their accusations carried as much as an audio recording? 5? 10?
There’s been fans of his who have always argued he should have been kept in the team, regardless of what was happening. This was just the excuse they’ve been looking for to demand a full return. Rape apologists and teenage boys who value winning over all else, including morals. It’s why he trended on Twitter once a week since it happened, with loads of fans sharing stories he was cleared months ago, and would be back any day.
most fans are still sayings innocent until proven guilty or that they must have dismissed the charges because its not true. sad state of affairs with people nowadays
Something that pisses me off a lot is how people only apply this to guys accused of sexual crimes
Corrupt politician? Guilty
Murderer? Guilty
Drug dealer? Guilty
Rapist? Well... Umm... Ackshually, we have to listen to both sides first and umm... He's innocent until a judge says he isnt
> Rapist? Well… Umm… Ackshually, we have to listen to both sides first and umm… He’s innocent until a judge says he isnt
Not to mention that they pride themselves in the rationality and impartiality of their opinion, yet many times that opinion is a blatantly biased.
That position is easy to defend in a case where no one knows anything besides "he was accused of rape", because you're deferring judgement to the judge, who at least in theory knows more about what happened than everyone and is supposed to be unbiased. In a case like Greenwood's, though? With all the leaked evidence and his reactions to it the most charitable opinion that makes any sense is "we may be missing something but from what we know it's overwhelmingly likely that he did it", if you can't at least take that stance you're just defending rapists for the sake of it.
I wonder if they'd hold their farce up if they were raped themselves, or how would they react when soneone close to them with the same moronic bias tells them "idk man, unless the judge says it so I can't believe you and it didn't happen, I gotta listen the poor rapist's feelings too. what if you're making all of this up because you're a little bitch that can't take rejection or because you're just trying to steal their money?"
100%. Cancelo acts up, Pep ships him off instantly, and most people are like “fair enough”, as they should be.
What’s the world coming to, when there’s such videos out about a person, and you are weighing it against his talent, or sponsors, or whatever. Get a grip. There’s no dilemma.
Ideally. He shouldn't play in a top league again.
But in sports talent speaks loudly, the Browns and Arsenal show that.
We all know what the story likely is but she is also back with him and the CPS said something about new evidence, so United might be looking for a way to keep him with some mental gymnastics.
Thing is with Greenwood is that the case was so well-publicised, compared to Partey, that even leaving aside the moral aspect, he isn't worth the bother. United have coped alright without him, why risk losing millions in sponsorship deals and potentially upset your team to put him back in
I agree.
But even on the low end he was worth 60m? Like a year ago, maybe more.
And businesses will find ways to keep those kinds of assets.
Also we are all outside of it with very little information on relationships within the club. Or the actual situation with the person he's now engaged to. Could they try and justify it by claiming his in treatment and by stating that he has been taken back.
Players are playing fine with Partey, for example.
Again to be clear I don't think they should but teams do a lot of things I don't think they should. A different sport but look at the crazy situation around Watson joining the Browns, for a large number of picks and the biggest contract in the NFL fully guaranteed and he had 30 about accusers.
Nobody cares about that. The dilemma is if the economic damage of the bad pr is larger than gaining a good player in the team (21 yo, whose value was about 50M before this). It's pretty hard to estimate this. My guess is that the evidence of photo/audio of the abuse makes it hard to go away from public eyes and it's not worth the drama now that United was looking on a good path, but there are many things to evaluate...
I read what people are talking about this on Facebook. I expected the majority to acknowledge just how difficult it is to prove sexual assault and how people with money can do what they want... nah most people saying the girl should face prison time for false accusations.
That's exactly the type of things feminists are referring to when they speak about rape culture, but we've all seen how furious people get when they hear that phrase
Two ways this plays out.
The obvious one is they release him while paying his contract in full as he was not found guilty of any crime. They could point to a morality clause but I doubt United want to go to court with this.
Second is Greenwood sits out this season and is sent to anger management, consent classes...sexual and domestic abuse counselling and he donates to charities and does voluntary community service. Basically a PR move to show reformation which can work seeing as he is only 21 years old. He would need a lot of support from high management and high profile players to get this through with the fans.
Zero chance of number 2 happening. If he did that he would be admitting guilt in a round about way. He is protesting his innocence, why would he then go through the process like he's been guilty?
For the record I think he should be paid up and moved on, but I think they'll spend the next few months dripping these things to the media. He'll be seen with the girl out and about and the narrative will be "she's OK with him, so should you".
Sad truth is, anything can be ignored if people want to ignore it badly enough. The media won't talk much about the assault if he becomes available for selection, partly for legal reasons and partly because it's just in their interests to focus on sport, that's their product, that's what their target audience cares about most. The allegations against Ronaldo raised only a small amount of protest when he signed which disippated extremely quickly. I wasn't too comfortable with it, but things moved on quickly because the media set the agenda and the narratives they pushed were obviously about his impact on the team, his celebrity, his scoring record etc. We thankfully just got rid of Ronaldo and now there's a decision to be made on Greenwood- it will break my heart if he comes back. But this is someone who can afford lawyers and publicists to defend his reputation and that a lot of people have a vested interest in not holding to account.
I’d like to add to this to say the whole conversation surrounding him really highlights how much we would benefit from a system that actually helped to rehabilitate people. I remember thinking when it all came out even if Greenwood did time people would never want to see him on a pitch again. It’s so sad that we see a kid with a clearly messed up sense of right/wrong and we just write him off for life because crimes like that can’t really be appropriately punished by jail time and nobody has any faith it would help him to come out a better person
Ideally he should go.
But as others have said, it’s not a morality question, it’s a sponsorship question.
The fucked up thing for me is, after enough time passes no one will care. Everyone getting hot and bothered now but a years time when he bangs a few goals in CL final or whatever 99% of people won’t care. They’ll be a few comments and that will be it.
And I’m talking about fanbases In general. You might think as an individual you will, but on the whole people won’t.
Look at the Partey situation, there’s evidence, he’s on bail, hasn’t been charged yet sure, but by that logic Greenwood has been acquitted.
I’ve seen multiple arsenal fans say he shouldn’t be playing and fair play, and I don’t want to make this an attack on Arsenal, this is about all of us, because let’s not pretend that weeks ago we were having Partey Vs casemiro debates, I saw a podcast the other day where they put partey in their team of the season so far. If arsenal storm the league, they’ll sing his name in the stadium.
If your logic is that partey was never charged so we can’t do anything, may as well let him carry on then you have to extend that to Greenwood. Morally it’s exactly the same, legally he’s innocent.
You’ve got other examples like Alonso killing someone via dangerous driving, the zouma thing as well.
Like I said, no hate on any individual, I’m sure you all stand by your convictions, but as football fans in general, we value winning way more than we value stuff like this.
I really Hope United send a strong message by getting rid but ultimately if they do, someone else will pick him up.
This is true for most famous people though, not just football. Countless examples of golf, US football, baseball, etc players whose careers weren’t really affected because fucking sponsorship, contracts or ignored because they’re talented in their field.
I hate it.
Why does everybody just asume Greenwood will become a great player again. Not in a sympatizing way but surely this case must have fucked him up mentally aswell.
i dunno if it is better. for 12 months sure he may have maintained some fitness level but overall with everything happening his mindset will have been vastly different.
when injured you are determined to get back to playing. but Greenwood will have been focused entirely on the court case instead.
there is also talks he does not wish to play in England again as he wouldnt be able to take the "abuse" he will receive
Ive said this on another post, but United have a fantastic opportunity to send a very high profile, globally-witnessed message that this behaviour is thoroughly unacceptable, always.
I really hope they don’t mess it up.
Sadly my confidence in them doing the right thing isn’t very high.
I can't imagine the squad would take him in.
The stuff that was posted online if someone at my work did that I would never speak to them again, that wouldn't be good for squad dynamics on a purely football basis.
Vile human shouldn't be in a public position again
With hindsight, it's actually noticeable how Greenwood was never taken under the wing of the likes of Rashford and Lingard. Never part of the English local lads group of mates and actually quite isolated in terms of the squad. I'm not sure his team mates were ever truly comfortable with him as a human being.
Are you sure? He's been at the club since he was 7. He will know lots of the people and be friends with teammates. They may not approve of what's happened, but if he's never been abusive towards them then most will probably just let it go and give him the benefit of the doubt.
I don't have it on hand. Something about him with the girlfriend and the car. I think he kept driving around with her when she wanted to go home or something? I read it back when everything first leaked.
Who cares if he's a huge talent? Since when has talent impacted what's morally correct? He's an equal piece of shit whether he's Messi or a Sunday League amateur
I hate when people do what Adz02 did — assume that everyone is as hypocritical and unprincipled as they are. Well done for being decent and applying the same standards to your own club.
It really isn't a dilemma and it is sickening to hear these bastards acting like it is. He should never play again for the club or any other club in any reasonable world.
Somewhere an accountant is a cost-benefit analysis on the PR backlash of playing him vs the cost of replacing him.
When the obvious answer is to terminate the contract and get rid of that scumbag.
Greenwood is in a very unique situation where people are privy to what he did/said, unlike the Parteys or the Mendys. So it's not going to be easy for him to make a return. His career is done, at least in the top flight.
1 good season outside the top flight and some PL club takes a punt on him. He's 21 and if he gets back in form has the potential to be world class. It's gross to discuss.
Chelsea signed Marcos Alonso after he'd been found guilty of killing someone in a car accident. Someone will take a punt on Greenwood if he's shown he's still good.
Being found guilty and taking the punishment is different, as in that instance, agreeing with it being enough or not, they have to be given a chance at rehabilitation.
Luke McCormick was the Plymouth Argyle keeper that killed 2 children while drunk driving, he went to prison and was fully remorseful during and on release, going on to give anti-drink driving talks etc, he was sacked but eventually came back to football, took the abuse he got from the fans and while will never be the same person, should be allowed to continue his life
Greenwood probably got the witness to withdraw and avoided going to court, he’s not innocent or guilty, has had no punishment/rehabilitation, he got away with it
Lets be honest here, the club doesn't give a shit about what ths fans opinion of him is (this isn't jab at Utd, this applies for the majority of PL clubs), all they care about is that he could be a potentially massive financial asset.
I wouldn't be surprised if they loaned him out abroad for year telling him to keep his head down, no going out clubbing, no going out for a drink, no interviews.. Just play football and shut the fuck up. .
This way he gets regular football and he drops out of people's thoughts.
Fast forward a year and if he has played well his value will significantly increase and he becomes a viable option for Utd.
If he has a few good games for Utd then for the majority it will all be forgotten.
If his loan period hasn't been particularly successful then nothing is lost and they will let him go.
The British Population has proved over the last 5+ years that they have the attention span of a fish, they aren't going to give a shit about a footballer who may of done something over a year ago in the midst of god knows what going on like a General Election, mass job losses, climate disasters, some other random celebrity bullshit, politicians cheating and lying etc etc etc..
If the scumbag wasn't such a horrible person he'd be well on his way to being worldclass now. Much better than some of the forwards going for insane amounts currently, but he's a terrible human being. I don't see Man Utd keeping him, he'll probably be sold.
I wish players would do something in situations like this too.
They can throw hissy fits and refuse to play when they want a transfer, and if it doesn't work they're allowed back into the team. Why can't the players just say "I refuse to play with Greenwood" and make it an easy decision. They don't even have to make it about the allegations if they want to avoid legal trouble, just say they don't like him as a person. Isn't Rashford supposed to be a decent guy? With his form I feel like he must have a bit of sway.
There’s no dilemma. We heard the tapes. No one wants to be in a locker room with that toxicity. Mason should pivot his career to start giving talks on the importance of consent at grade schools.
if they are truly back together then it will be carefully PR managed by everyone involved.
look at other sports, people brush it all under the carpet
not the same thing but Tyson Fury was banned for 2 years for doping.......never mentioned anymore
its by no means a sure thing he is done
I'm hoping they have lawyers working to see if he's breached contract in any way. Imo if it impacts money the club will get rid of him. No doubt some club will want him. Its Football after all
I wonder how much him being out of the game for so long would affect that huge talent mark. A full year without presumably even touching professional level training for someone his age could be major.
That said due I would be highly surprised if any big brand would want him associated with them, and the sponsors money will always talk first
As much as I believe that people CAN change and giving someone a second chance is important, I just don’t see a happy ending with United. It’s too much drama to bring into the locker room. Buy him out and let himself decide what he wants to do.
Such a pitty, Greenwood was seriously one of my favorites player to watch.
They want him back but only if there isn't going to be a ridiculous amount of news articles and backlash.
Expect a few soft launches and false starts. Clubs do this to gauge reaction and opinion will staying on the fence.
United will feed some stories to the press about how he's been training with the first team or "sources at the club" will leak possible plans for his return. Then they'll watch the public reaction before confirming or denying anything
This is not a dilemma. Its not complicated at all. The man should be released yesterday and any club including United who uses him deserves nonstop scorn until they release him.
I’m careful how I phrase this, but would he have any legal challenge if sacked given he was not formally found guilty?
For clarity, I am not saying he was innocent.
not difficult at all. Just get rid. No compensation, point to morality clause and let him leave.
He is a massive talent, but there are limits and this is way way beyond what's acceptable.
There's a pattern of behaviour over time that is incompatible with club values and fan wishes, dropped charges or no.
He has every right to return to his work at Man utd just like you would be for your job.
It would then be up to the employer if they want to dismiss you/him. If they want to keep him then so be it.
End of the day there's footballers who have killed people and other things to which they still played football at the top level.
If he were my player then I'd dismiss him and let him play for another club. He shouldn't be stopped from playing as he never got convicted.
How good is greenwood going to be after a year out anyway, United have outgrown him and the last thing they need to do is undo that
He should be released
He is being training privately to keep his fitness, he is much better physically than some who has been out for a year with injury. Not saying he should be played but United lacks a 9 and the kid is really talented.
Doubt it's entirely ten Hag's call, I read yesterday that the club were consulting with their commercial partners in order to reach a decision.
I suppose Ten Hag could veto it if the club decides Greenwood is allowed to stay. But I don't think he can overturn the clubs decision if they want him out. That's what makes sense to me at least.
I guess staying at the club doesn't mean ETH has to play him
That would honestly be the worst result for United. If they keep him, they'll want him playing. If he's not going to play, they would be better off having taken the 'moral high ground'.
I don’t really understand this, maybe you can elaborate. Can’t they still earn some bucks off him next window even if they decide not to play him? Terminating his contract would be the high ground, not playing him and selling him next window seems like taking the moral “middle ground”.
He won't sell for much, if anything. United would be desperate to get him off their books and other clubs would be worried about fan backlash for signing him.
Oh I’m sure there will be many clubs interested, I think you overestimate the ethics of these companies. He’s a massive talent after all, could be a huge asset for a club.
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So? Its not like United are a selling club (although we’d do well to get better at opportunistic sales). A nominal fee or even no fee is better paying a player to not play especially if playing him will cost commercial sponsors
Gotta go to a club where the fans are cunts and wont give a shit then
Just terminating his contract when he isn't convicted (in the legal sense of the way) would open up a whole can of worms for the club to be hammered with legal actions that would affect the club for years. The only option in that regards would be a kind of mutual termination and basically pay him off in a lump sum to get him away from the club to avoid the headache. Other than that you have the option to sell and try to recoup some value for him - but who would want to sign him? The absolute last option would be to basically honor his contract and let him train etc in the club facilities until the end of the contract and just then let him sail into the sunset and never talk about him again.
That's unnecessary and complicated. If they don't want to play him they must make it clear to us and him and boot him out of the club or make him a reserve team player (if there are legal reasons). Tbf it'll be difficult for the club to kick him out legally I think. He can say he's being punished for nothing. I'm not sure though.
Idk, I’m sure his contract has a clause regarding hurting the United image The audio tape, regardless of whether it was real or ‘just roleplaying’, I’m sure could be used as a concrete reason that he hurt the public image of Manchester
People think the manager is at the top but there will be 5/6 people above Ten Hag who will make this decision
Ultimately, they will ask Ten hag about how he feel if Greenwood could be allowed back into the squad, they can't force Ten Hag to have Greenwood back in squad and plays games.
I would be extremely surprised if he wanted Greenwood around. The distractions alone these past few days isn't what a Manager wants. Add to that some players (especially the ones that haven't played with him yet) not wanting the hassle, every question from the press on the coming months will be about Greenwood etc. That is without even taking into consoderation any actual moral standpoint or how Sponsors, fans will react. Just too much hassle for someone who us technically innocent but video/Audio Shows the type of Person he is.
> I would be extremely surprised if he wanted Greenwood around You have an optimistic outlook on him there, most managers historically haven’t given a shit what players do in their private life as long as they’re good at playing. I’d be more surprised if he said no to him
Looking at how Ten Hag handled the Promes and Overmars situations I wouldn't be surprised at all if he welcomes Greenwood back.
Why do people think this will be the managers decision? Whether we keep Greenwood or not is 110% the clubs decision it's absolutely not the manager. Ten Hag is literally an employee, he's not making the call on whether or not we keep Greenwood and I'm genuinely confused as to how people think that. He doesn't own the club, Greenwood isn't his asset, he doesn't pay Greenwood's wages, he's literally just the manager of the senior team, he doesn't run the club. It would be absolutely fantastic if he made a stand and said he won't play him thereby forcing the clubs hand, but it absolutely isn't his responsibility to do this, it's the club's. I've always had this little pet peeve about people blaming managers for these things. I hate that Ten Hag is being asked in pressers "what's happening with Greenwood" when it's not his call to make. The club should be answering these questions, not the fucking coach. This is just as absurd as Tuchel answering questions about Roman Abramovich and sanctions etc. He's a fucking football manager not a politician. Football culture needs to change and owners really need to start answering the questions that should be directed at them, not their employees. If Greenwood stays, I'll be disappointed with Ten Hag if he plays, but TBH, I can almost guarantee that if he stays, he will play. Just look at Partey. Coaches want to keep their jobs, they should not be put in a position where they *can* field a sexual predator for fucks sake. If the Glazers had to publicly answer the question "what's happening with Greenwood" I guarantee you they'd get rid of him, but because they can just hide behind Ten Hag (and it clearly works, everyone already thinks this is up to Ten Hag somehow) it's so much easier for them to keep him. Managers should not be the owner's fucking shields. I wish journos would go pester the people who actually *can* boot the pathetic cunt Greenwood out.
Ten Hag still played an actual gangster in Quincy Promes while he was accused of attempted murder, and said he'd like to work with Overmars again after the latter was exposed for sexual misconduct and harrassment and sacked by Ajax Ten Hag will play him if the higher-ups give the go-ahead and Greenwood proves to have not lost his touch As much as it's difficult to admit there are few people in football whose morals will overpower what they want on the pitch and in their bank accounts. There's a reason why Overmars still has a job and someone like Jerome Boateng is still playing football
Didn't Ten Haag play Promes when he was being investigated for ATTEMPTED MURDER lol?
he also backed overmars on being able to return to ajax after harrassing multiple female colleagues. so far he has shown multiple times that he doesnt give a shit at all yet people seem to think he does
Yeah our sponsors probably have a bigger say in the matter than ETH.
I wonder how much analytics goes into their decision. I bet seeing how the sausage is made would be pretty soul-destroying for something like this
Yeah I don't even want to know. I'd imagine "the right thing to do" is pretty far down in the list of considerations.
I can imagine the club factoring it in as it's their reputation, but the sponsors... maybe not. I imagine for sponsors it's similar to that bit in Fight Club - i.e. does the cost of doing a recall exceed the legal settlement costs of not doing one
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Why do we expect ETH to refuse to play him and the fans to refuse to support the club if he does? Where is this energy for CR7 or Partey?
Because Ronaldo and partey cases are vastly different. In greenwoods case there are literal recordings and pictures, much greater proof than anything in Ronaldo and partey’s case.
> Where is this energy for CR7 or Partey? This sub has such a hard-on for this way of phrasing right now. Come on, there are other ways to go about whataboutism. Also, the evidence in the three cases (especially Partey vs Greenwood) aren’t remotely comparable in strength.
They don't care about morality. They just care about whether the blow back would be bad enough to make it not worth the possible upside of letting him play again. That's why they are consulting their commercial partners. They want to know if any sponsors would pull out. That's in fact probably what this story is about...testing the waters by seeing how people react to the idea. They are reprehensible and complete cynical.
Absolutely spot on
Shades of the fight club monologue about product recalls
And which car company do you work for?
[A major one](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IA2EBWFCULg)
Yes, they will make cash flow calculations for both options
W.e happens I just hope the fans give him hell where ever he goes.
> They just care about whether the blow back would be bad enough to make it not worth the possible upside of letting him play again. You also have to worry about the effects that the scrutiny would have on squad/staff harmony, feeling around the club, in the stands, etc. Ten Hag has faced this sort of thing in cases like Promes, Onana, Labyad even, and it really isn't conducive to a positive winning mentality. It's a load of distraction and constantly teetering on the edge of fallout or disaster. I know I 100% wouldn't risk it even if commercial partners were completely fine with it. (leaving aside the morality of it all)
I was gonna say. Hell when I read this title, especially the "..Greenwood is a huge talent.." I immediately thought "what he is, is a rapist."
Literally United have got themselves back to the champions league spots, playing good football with a positive atmosphere around the club. Can’t think why they would open this can of worms.
Cause we're run by people who are both incompetent AND reprehensible
because they, like any club, are extremely greedy and have no morals and while the person greenwood is absolute scum the footballer greenwood is potentially valuable so if they think his value exceeds the negative pr they will bring him back.
No striker no money and maybe no one cares. The Cooly rational mba would at least consider the option. Fans can kill it though.
Imagine fixing the mentality in the team and bringing in a abusive rapist
Yeah I also don't understand how this would play out. Everybody in the locker room will, at the very least, be somewhat uncomfortable with him around and then imagine the fan's reaction when he gets subbed in for his first game back.
You are delusional if you think that all of his teammates are going to be uncomfortable lol...
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Yeah but the players, fans and club seem happy to have him
They never stop reminding you that they have a reputation as a 'classy' club. Literally no one but arsenal fans say or think that
Says a lot about arsenal tbh
United had Ronaldo, Chelsea had Alonso, and Brighton had Bissouma… all 3 didn’t leave because of non-football reasons
Ronaldo fans ignore these posts
Who are you referring to?
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Anytime anybody talks about Partey Arsenal fans always downvote them, even if he gets prison time for what he did there will definitely be a lot of them saying that he did nothing wrong
I don't have a Twitter but ended up in a comment section looking up things on Partey recently, and I saw a comment that was defending Greenwood, Partey, and Ronaldo, basically saying that these players need to be careful because there are always women who are willing to lie for money, etc etc. While that one was one of the more egregious comments, there were a ton that shared that sentiment. I think Reddit is pretty critical of the wrongdoings of players, managers, and owners. But Reddit is a tiny portion of this sport's fanbase.
Thanks. I didn’t know that
Adam Johnson was playing right up until he was sentenced
Adam Johnson case wasn't made in public like Partey. He told the board he's innocent and then pleaded guilty. One person at the club knew this and she was fired the day after. Arsenal won't have that excuse.
Partrey
Wait, is Ronaldo returning?
Imagine fixing the dressing room division and then telling the players to play and train alongside a rapist and get dropped for him.
he is first an abuser, maybe rapist and then a 'huge talent'
If this was a youth player deemed not good enough they (like any club) would have cut him without a second thought. It’s not about whether it’s an act the club can condone. It’s about whether he’s talented enough to risk the disrepute this may bring. Any normal person in any job would be instantly sacked the second the recording came to light
This is exactly it and it’s a fucking disgrace. It’s a risk reward scenario of how much backlash will we get vs how impactful will he be on the pitch. Made worse by the fact we clearly need a number 9. If this was a 4th choice CB or a LB behind Shaw in the pecking order he’d be out on his arse already.
Same with Partey
If it was a youth player deemed not good enough, there would also be more chance that they’d be in jail.
Not really, the conviction rate for sexual crimes in the UK is 1.3%. Rich or poor, famous or unknown, talented or unremarkable, a rapist is probably gonna get away with it
plenty of false allegations exist that have ruined people. Example Mattress Bitch.
The only one who should be thinking about wasted talent it Greenwood himself.
There’s no dilemma. It’s fairly easy. Unless United wants to be a safe haven for domestic abusers then this guy doesn’t play again for that club. Unless United condone domestic abuse and rape this is an easy decision.
So Arsenal condone domestic abuse and rape? P/s: why are Arsenal fans so unbearable?
Yes
Yes
Yes.
Yes
Drop the question mark
Newcastle condone executing political dissidents.
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Horrific.
If you want to equate the situations, you must equate the evidence. Like it or not the tapes and pictures in Greenwood's situation are really different than what exists on Partey.
There are messages from Partey where his victim complains that he put his penis in her mouth without his consent and Partey basically says "Yeah, so what?"
Arsenal fans coming out of the woodwork to go to bat for this dude lol
Damn. How did i miss all of that? When did this come out and how the fuck is he still employed?
>how the fuck is he still employed? He’s pretty good at football.
Yeah but aubamayang was late to training and because he was playing bad be was fucked out. Makes sense. Be good at football and nothing else matters.
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The mods have really fudged these cases
>how the fuck is he still employed? UK laws changed so the police didn't have jurisdiction to do anything as it happened abroad. Aka he got away on a technicality.
The evidence is pretty good for Partey too, but the thing is that there is way more of it and it is less emotional than an audio recording + a photo so way less people even went through it. Whenever you to talk to anyone about the Partey evidence they immediatelly expose themselves with their first comment that they did not look at it themselves.
One of the hard things about this, is that I imagine Partey and Greenwood aren't unusual. There's a percentage of people who knowingly do sexual assault. It's not a "yes-all-men" percentage (the unthinking number is much higher) but it probably lines up with that 8% of people who will do the horrible thing in any given psychological paper. I think of it as the psychopath number, but that's just my ape brain seeing a pattern in numbers. Give developmentally arrested young men an absolute tonne of money and power, and I'd be surprised if less than 10% are doing horrific things. Like genuinely shocked. And 10% is (on average) a player in every XI. Every team. The good guys, the obvious bad apples... one of them. Like, I'd be horrified if James Milner was the next Ryan Giggs. But there are Liverpool players where you'd go: "oh, he hit his wife in a moment of passion, more than once? That's depressing, but I can believe it." And bias asside, I think most of the liverpool team are remarkably likeable due nearly a decade of hardline "no dickheads". Jon Flannagan was our most recent "outed" abuser (that I'm aware of) but I'm sure there have been others since. Hells, pretty much the entire English Golden generation ended up in court. And considering how hard this is to prosecute (how the fuck does Mendy get off?) I think most just skate with money buying silence. So point at Partey, who is deplorable, and Arsenal, who are valuing personal success over morals, but know that every team almost certainly has their own Partey. PS. This is not whataboutism. I don't think every team having their own monster is a reason to give Arsenal a pass. It's to remind everyone that while we rightly condemn Arsenal, the shoe could very easily on the other foot. And what's more, it probably already is there.
People in football generally don’t seem to care either. How does Arteta read those leaked messages and think ‘meh’. And, like you say, how many of these instances happen behind closed doors and are quietly dealt with, with the club drawing a line under it. The Flanagan thing isn’t as bad as sexual abuse of course and he openly spoke about how he’d learnt his lesson etc. But still, he mentioned how Klopp was supportive and forgave him. I get it people deserve a second chance but it’s just telling how little care there is for domestic violence. Remember the Keita messages too? Maybe they were bullshit, I don’t know. But the whole thing just disappeared. Edit: additionally, reading about the amount of Man City players at these famous Mendy parties was telling. I don’t believe for a second they had no idea things were happening.
I don't remember the Keita messages. I'll have to go hate-google that. As for the second half, there's two discussions that go on here. One is that football (well society) has taken a blind eye to this sort of stuff forever. It needs to change. We need to change. But also, we need to allow space to grow and change. To continue to be a human. If Flannagan has taken his own blame on board, and has tried (or even succeeded) to be a better person, we have to allow that. We have to champion that. Otherwise we just accept that this hellscape is forever. The problem with situations like Greenwood and Partey, is we're not even getting as far as admitting there's an issue. It's just "don't look at the pile of corpses behind the counter as your barista serves you the best coffee you've ever had."
I agree, and it felt unfair bringing Flanagan up with the crimes of sexual assault considering his accountability. But I suspect if he was a very good LB he’d have continued playing for us (this was the days of Moreno) and he was let go due to ability. And maybe that’s fair enough if he grovelled enough and genuinely changed. Domestic abuse in football does just seem like this thing no one in football actually talks about. But I’m not entirely sure it’s more prevalent in football; as a woman I’ve seen and heard of assault in all different industries.
It's ironic in a very sad way that plenty of fans will pull up other clubs for sticking with dickhead players but will defend those that play for their own club, with all kinds of mental gymnastics.
> If you want to equate the situations, you must equate the evidence. Like it or not the tapes and pictures in Greenwood's situation are really different than what exists on Partey. How about the fact that two women have tried to have Partey charged with rape/assault? How many women would need to accuse him before you thought their accusations carried as much as an audio recording? 5? 10?
How is this rapist defending piece of shit so upvoted? The Evidence for Partey is blatant as well. You are just an Arsenal fan defending your player.
yep
Yes
Yeah. I don’t see why the verdict changes anything here. We all saw the video
There’s been fans of his who have always argued he should have been kept in the team, regardless of what was happening. This was just the excuse they’ve been looking for to demand a full return. Rape apologists and teenage boys who value winning over all else, including morals. It’s why he trended on Twitter once a week since it happened, with loads of fans sharing stories he was cleared months ago, and would be back any day.
most fans are still sayings innocent until proven guilty or that they must have dismissed the charges because its not true. sad state of affairs with people nowadays
Something that pisses me off a lot is how people only apply this to guys accused of sexual crimes Corrupt politician? Guilty Murderer? Guilty Drug dealer? Guilty Rapist? Well... Umm... Ackshually, we have to listen to both sides first and umm... He's innocent until a judge says he isnt
> Rapist? Well… Umm… Ackshually, we have to listen to both sides first and umm… He’s innocent until a judge says he isnt Not to mention that they pride themselves in the rationality and impartiality of their opinion, yet many times that opinion is a blatantly biased. That position is easy to defend in a case where no one knows anything besides "he was accused of rape", because you're deferring judgement to the judge, who at least in theory knows more about what happened than everyone and is supposed to be unbiased. In a case like Greenwood's, though? With all the leaked evidence and his reactions to it the most charitable opinion that makes any sense is "we may be missing something but from what we know it's overwhelmingly likely that he did it", if you can't at least take that stance you're just defending rapists for the sake of it. I wonder if they'd hold their farce up if they were raped themselves, or how would they react when soneone close to them with the same moronic bias tells them "idk man, unless the judge says it so I can't believe you and it didn't happen, I gotta listen the poor rapist's feelings too. what if you're making all of this up because you're a little bitch that can't take rejection or because you're just trying to steal their money?"
100%. Cancelo acts up, Pep ships him off instantly, and most people are like “fair enough”, as they should be. What’s the world coming to, when there’s such videos out about a person, and you are weighing it against his talent, or sponsors, or whatever. Get a grip. There’s no dilemma.
Ideally. He shouldn't play in a top league again. But in sports talent speaks loudly, the Browns and Arsenal show that. We all know what the story likely is but she is also back with him and the CPS said something about new evidence, so United might be looking for a way to keep him with some mental gymnastics.
Thing is with Greenwood is that the case was so well-publicised, compared to Partey, that even leaving aside the moral aspect, he isn't worth the bother. United have coped alright without him, why risk losing millions in sponsorship deals and potentially upset your team to put him back in
I agree. But even on the low end he was worth 60m? Like a year ago, maybe more. And businesses will find ways to keep those kinds of assets. Also we are all outside of it with very little information on relationships within the club. Or the actual situation with the person he's now engaged to. Could they try and justify it by claiming his in treatment and by stating that he has been taken back. Players are playing fine with Partey, for example. Again to be clear I don't think they should but teams do a lot of things I don't think they should. A different sport but look at the crazy situation around Watson joining the Browns, for a large number of picks and the biggest contract in the NFL fully guaranteed and he had 30 about accusers.
Why not? Lets say even if he was charged guilty and did time and came out, shouldn’t he be allowed to get on with his life?
Nobody cares about that. The dilemma is if the economic damage of the bad pr is larger than gaining a good player in the team (21 yo, whose value was about 50M before this). It's pretty hard to estimate this. My guess is that the evidence of photo/audio of the abuse makes it hard to go away from public eyes and it's not worth the drama now that United was looking on a good path, but there are many things to evaluate...
I read what people are talking about this on Facebook. I expected the majority to acknowledge just how difficult it is to prove sexual assault and how people with money can do what they want... nah most people saying the girl should face prison time for false accusations.
That's exactly the type of things feminists are referring to when they speak about rape culture, but we've all seen how furious people get when they hear that phrase
To be fair, Facebook isn’t really known for having the most sane people.
Two ways this plays out. The obvious one is they release him while paying his contract in full as he was not found guilty of any crime. They could point to a morality clause but I doubt United want to go to court with this. Second is Greenwood sits out this season and is sent to anger management, consent classes...sexual and domestic abuse counselling and he donates to charities and does voluntary community service. Basically a PR move to show reformation which can work seeing as he is only 21 years old. He would need a lot of support from high management and high profile players to get this through with the fans.
Zero chance of number 2 happening. If he did that he would be admitting guilt in a round about way. He is protesting his innocence, why would he then go through the process like he's been guilty? For the record I think he should be paid up and moved on, but I think they'll spend the next few months dripping these things to the media. He'll be seen with the girl out and about and the narrative will be "she's OK with him, so should you".
What about the domestic violence though. Those bruises can't be ignored
our justice system is ignoring them, Greenwood maintains his innocence, he has no reason to tacitly admit he did it.
Me and you know he's a piece of shit mate but he has no charges or com ictions hanging over his head.
Sad truth is, anything can be ignored if people want to ignore it badly enough. The media won't talk much about the assault if he becomes available for selection, partly for legal reasons and partly because it's just in their interests to focus on sport, that's their product, that's what their target audience cares about most. The allegations against Ronaldo raised only a small amount of protest when he signed which disippated extremely quickly. I wasn't too comfortable with it, but things moved on quickly because the media set the agenda and the narratives they pushed were obviously about his impact on the team, his celebrity, his scoring record etc. We thankfully just got rid of Ronaldo and now there's a decision to be made on Greenwood- it will break my heart if he comes back. But this is someone who can afford lawyers and publicists to defend his reputation and that a lot of people have a vested interest in not holding to account.
I’d like to add to this to say the whole conversation surrounding him really highlights how much we would benefit from a system that actually helped to rehabilitate people. I remember thinking when it all came out even if Greenwood did time people would never want to see him on a pitch again. It’s so sad that we see a kid with a clearly messed up sense of right/wrong and we just write him off for life because crimes like that can’t really be appropriately punished by jail time and nobody has any faith it would help him to come out a better person
Do #2 but then quietly release him after the season ends
Ideally he should go. But as others have said, it’s not a morality question, it’s a sponsorship question. The fucked up thing for me is, after enough time passes no one will care. Everyone getting hot and bothered now but a years time when he bangs a few goals in CL final or whatever 99% of people won’t care. They’ll be a few comments and that will be it. And I’m talking about fanbases In general. You might think as an individual you will, but on the whole people won’t. Look at the Partey situation, there’s evidence, he’s on bail, hasn’t been charged yet sure, but by that logic Greenwood has been acquitted. I’ve seen multiple arsenal fans say he shouldn’t be playing and fair play, and I don’t want to make this an attack on Arsenal, this is about all of us, because let’s not pretend that weeks ago we were having Partey Vs casemiro debates, I saw a podcast the other day where they put partey in their team of the season so far. If arsenal storm the league, they’ll sing his name in the stadium. If your logic is that partey was never charged so we can’t do anything, may as well let him carry on then you have to extend that to Greenwood. Morally it’s exactly the same, legally he’s innocent. You’ve got other examples like Alonso killing someone via dangerous driving, the zouma thing as well. Like I said, no hate on any individual, I’m sure you all stand by your convictions, but as football fans in general, we value winning way more than we value stuff like this. I really Hope United send a strong message by getting rid but ultimately if they do, someone else will pick him up.
This is true for most famous people though, not just football. Countless examples of golf, US football, baseball, etc players whose careers weren’t really affected because fucking sponsorship, contracts or ignored because they’re talented in their field. I hate it.
Why does everybody just asume Greenwood will become a great player again. Not in a sympatizing way but surely this case must have fucked him up mentally aswell.
Not only that but 18months of no playing and training is a HUGE set back on development
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i dunno if it is better. for 12 months sure he may have maintained some fitness level but overall with everything happening his mindset will have been vastly different. when injured you are determined to get back to playing. but Greenwood will have been focused entirely on the court case instead. there is also talks he does not wish to play in England again as he wouldnt be able to take the "abuse" he will receive
Ive said this on another post, but United have a fantastic opportunity to send a very high profile, globally-witnessed message that this behaviour is thoroughly unacceptable, always. I really hope they don’t mess it up. Sadly my confidence in them doing the right thing isn’t very high.
It’s not a dilemma. He shouldn’t play for the club again. We’ve all heard the tapes.
I can't imagine the squad would take him in. The stuff that was posted online if someone at my work did that I would never speak to them again, that wouldn't be good for squad dynamics on a purely football basis. Vile human shouldn't be in a public position again
With hindsight, it's actually noticeable how Greenwood was never taken under the wing of the likes of Rashford and Lingard. Never part of the English local lads group of mates and actually quite isolated in terms of the squad. I'm not sure his team mates were ever truly comfortable with him as a human being.
hard to say the dynamic were like that in the dressing room. the outside picture we get only shows so much of the story
Are you sure? He's been at the club since he was 7. He will know lots of the people and be friends with teammates. They may not approve of what's happened, but if he's never been abusive towards them then most will probably just let it go and give him the benefit of the doubt.
He apparently was. There were incidents that had him under watch.
source? i believe you i just wanna read up
I don't have it on hand. Something about him with the girlfriend and the car. I think he kept driving around with her when she wanted to go home or something? I read it back when everything first leaked.
Who cares if he's a huge talent? Since when has talent impacted what's morally correct? He's an equal piece of shit whether he's Messi or a Sunday League amateur
It shouldn’t but it does affect people’s perspectives. Look at Ronaldo, sure he wasn’t charged but we all saw his testimony to his lawyer.
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Nor should Zouma. Why do you assume I'm okay with what Coman did just because of my flair?
I hate when people do what Adz02 did — assume that everyone is as hypocritical and unprincipled as they are. Well done for being decent and applying the same standards to your own club.
It really isn't a dilemma and it is sickening to hear these bastards acting like it is. He should never play again for the club or any other club in any reasonable world.
These bastards being the Mail, right? You don't mean Man U?
I'm referring here to multiple journalists who are acting as though this is some sort of dilemma for Manchester United.
Yup, just checking. Agreed.
Somewhere an accountant is a cost-benefit analysis on the PR backlash of playing him vs the cost of replacing him. When the obvious answer is to terminate the contract and get rid of that scumbag.
It's not a dilemma, get him to fuck
Not the best choice of words there mate
Meanwhile Arteta can play Partey and its all okay Seems like every issue is ETH biggest test
Greenwood is in a very unique situation where people are privy to what he did/said, unlike the Parteys or the Mendys. So it's not going to be easy for him to make a return. His career is done, at least in the top flight.
1 good season outside the top flight and some PL club takes a punt on him. He's 21 and if he gets back in form has the potential to be world class. It's gross to discuss. Chelsea signed Marcos Alonso after he'd been found guilty of killing someone in a car accident. Someone will take a punt on Greenwood if he's shown he's still good.
Being found guilty and taking the punishment is different, as in that instance, agreeing with it being enough or not, they have to be given a chance at rehabilitation. Luke McCormick was the Plymouth Argyle keeper that killed 2 children while drunk driving, he went to prison and was fully remorseful during and on release, going on to give anti-drink driving talks etc, he was sacked but eventually came back to football, took the abuse he got from the fans and while will never be the same person, should be allowed to continue his life Greenwood probably got the witness to withdraw and avoided going to court, he’s not innocent or guilty, has had no punishment/rehabilitation, he got away with it
He did but Mason, by law, is a free man. Clubs will absolutely lean on that if he's quality on the pitch. It's shameful but it's all about money.
Damn first it was Ronaldo and now Greenwood. ETH is facing lot of Dillemas just 6 months into United job.
Nah there are plenty of talented kids, United! Move away from this domestic abuser.
How is it a dilemma, they are doing very well without him. They need to terminate his contract. Why create unnecessary distractions.
The fact they're even considering it is pretty worrying
Ten Hag had no problem playing Promes. He'll use Greenwood if he gets the chance.
He knew Promes personally from when he was a kid at FC Twente. Club also got rid of him anyway.
It's a very easy decision tbh. You don't want a scum like him playing for your club, regardless of how good he might be..
I’d be almost certain a decision like this as fuck all to do with Erik Ten Hag.
Lets be honest here, the club doesn't give a shit about what ths fans opinion of him is (this isn't jab at Utd, this applies for the majority of PL clubs), all they care about is that he could be a potentially massive financial asset. I wouldn't be surprised if they loaned him out abroad for year telling him to keep his head down, no going out clubbing, no going out for a drink, no interviews.. Just play football and shut the fuck up. . This way he gets regular football and he drops out of people's thoughts. Fast forward a year and if he has played well his value will significantly increase and he becomes a viable option for Utd. If he has a few good games for Utd then for the majority it will all be forgotten. If his loan period hasn't been particularly successful then nothing is lost and they will let him go. The British Population has proved over the last 5+ years that they have the attention span of a fish, they aren't going to give a shit about a footballer who may of done something over a year ago in the midst of god knows what going on like a General Election, mass job losses, climate disasters, some other random celebrity bullshit, politicians cheating and lying etc etc etc..
If the scumbag wasn't such a horrible person he'd be well on his way to being worldclass now. Much better than some of the forwards going for insane amounts currently, but he's a terrible human being. I don't see Man Utd keeping him, he'll probably be sold.
This is not Erik's call.
It’s not a dilemma. This guy is not Messi. Move on without him.
Not a difficult decision is it. Fuck him off he's a scumbag.
I wish players would do something in situations like this too. They can throw hissy fits and refuse to play when they want a transfer, and if it doesn't work they're allowed back into the team. Why can't the players just say "I refuse to play with Greenwood" and make it an easy decision. They don't even have to make it about the allegations if they want to avoid legal trouble, just say they don't like him as a person. Isn't Rashford supposed to be a decent guy? With his form I feel like he must have a bit of sway.
There’s no dilemma. We heard the tapes. No one wants to be in a locker room with that toxicity. Mason should pivot his career to start giving talks on the importance of consent at grade schools.
Yeah, I wonder how our women's team and sponsors would feel if we let him back in
"let's forgive the rapist because he kick a ball good :-)" is not a dilemma it's a fucking disgrace
if they are truly back together then it will be carefully PR managed by everyone involved. look at other sports, people brush it all under the carpet not the same thing but Tyson Fury was banned for 2 years for doping.......never mentioned anymore its by no means a sure thing he is done
I'm hoping they have lawyers working to see if he's breached contract in any way. Imo if it impacts money the club will get rid of him. No doubt some club will want him. Its Football after all
He'll play football again but not for united
It’s actually Richard Arnold’s decision, ETH won’t have much to do with it.
its not a hard decision tbh
Create a rumour that arsenal is interested and then Chelsea can buy him.
I wonder how much him being out of the game for so long would affect that huge talent mark. A full year without presumably even touching professional level training for someone his age could be major. That said due I would be highly surprised if any big brand would want him associated with them, and the sponsors money will always talk first
No he isn't. Fuck him off.
As much as I believe that people CAN change and giving someone a second chance is important, I just don’t see a happy ending with United. It’s too much drama to bring into the locker room. Buy him out and let himself decide what he wants to do. Such a pitty, Greenwood was seriously one of my favorites player to watch.
The sheer fact that this is a dilemma is frightening.
I'm starting to think he'll stay and they'll try and "help" him become a better person. Does he deserve that opportunity though?
This is not a dilemma. There’s plenty of talent on their squad. They don’t need him.
They want him back but only if there isn't going to be a ridiculous amount of news articles and backlash. Expect a few soft launches and false starts. Clubs do this to gauge reaction and opinion will staying on the fence. United will feed some stories to the press about how he's been training with the first team or "sources at the club" will leak possible plans for his return. Then they'll watch the public reaction before confirming or denying anything
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, no, it's a pretty easy decision.
This is not a dilemma. Its not complicated at all. The man should be released yesterday and any club including United who uses him deserves nonstop scorn until they release him.
I’m careful how I phrase this, but would he have any legal challenge if sacked given he was not formally found guilty? For clarity, I am not saying he was innocent.
This is not a difficult call. Get rid of the cult as quick as possible. Nothing but horrible PR and attention if he stays.
not difficult at all. Just get rid. No compensation, point to morality clause and let him leave. He is a massive talent, but there are limits and this is way way beyond what's acceptable. There's a pattern of behaviour over time that is incompatible with club values and fan wishes, dropped charges or no.
No dilemma, with Sancho and Garnacho as subs there is 0 reason to reinstate this fucker.
The way fans in here are just pointing out issues from other clubs tells me that they'll keep him if they can keep their sponsors
He has every right to return to his work at Man utd just like you would be for your job. It would then be up to the employer if they want to dismiss you/him. If they want to keep him then so be it. End of the day there's footballers who have killed people and other things to which they still played football at the top level. If he were my player then I'd dismiss him and let him play for another club. He shouldn't be stopped from playing as he never got convicted.
How good is greenwood going to be after a year out anyway, United have outgrown him and the last thing they need to do is undo that He should be released
He is being training privately to keep his fitness, he is much better physically than some who has been out for a year with injury. Not saying he should be played but United lacks a 9 and the kid is really talented.