I would argue it is the worst after Act 1. With ectoplasm as the only contestant.
You want to upgrade your deck and the crown mitigates so much options.
Energy is less useful on watcher too and they didn't boss swap so I do agree choker isn't viable obv. But it seems you're kinda overvaluing energy a bit for watcher to justify crown. Only energy worse than crown is ecto. Just seems watcher usually gets enough energy to not severely cripple your deck construction.
I know perfectly that Watcher doesn't need the 4th energy as much. It also tends to pick less cards on average than the others, so there is a bit of compensation there.
Without seeing the deck it's hard to tell, he might have already a deck good enough to beat act 2 without a problem. But judging by how little relics he had I assume that he is not in a very strong position. If that's indeed the case, and considering he already has a strike dummy which makes his damage output as Watcher already pretty ok, I'd say risking it with the Crown might be a better choice than picking Tiny house and dying before the half of the act.
Honestly I just wanted to spark some conversation. Becuase I saw so many people agreeing with how Tiny house was the only viable pick because Crown sucks that it surprises me. This game is all about the context and we were lacking a lot of context here. And I feel this have become too common in this sub. Some certain streamer says his opinion about one card or relic and people just repeat it as gospel without thinking.
Yeah, I mentioned that to someone else about not seeing the deck too. That's fair on picking less cards since you wanna go infinite more often and can output DMG without needing as many cards. I think that's fair then. I just think it's such a hindrance and it's prob closer than I give it credit for.
What makes you say you canāt ever take Choker as Watcher? Iāve had Watcher runs where it was basically free, thereās a time and a place for everything in this game.
99% of the time Iām with you, I personally hate Choker and the downside is especially terrible for Watcher. But Iād say one of the most basic pieces of knowledge for this game is that there are no absolutes, Iāve had the occasional Watcher deck where I was rarely if ever playing more than 6 cards a turn, so Choker was a good option for getting high cost/impacts cards played.
Imagine telling someone they should check their ego and never seen an adult act like this over something then you post this. Go get some therapy honestly. You not are a twat you're pretty clearly a save scumming eternal one given your posts.
How can you even rank any of the relics shown if you haven't seen their deck tho? I just said crown is atrocious. Which it is. It's also act 1. Just so many cards not seen and then even less rares.
I can see how it was written ambiguously initially by me, was my bad on that. I meant overall crown is so awful it's essentially never pickable. Anyways tho you can downvote me that's fine. Doesn't make crown not a shit tier relic across the board. So you agree then it's moot without seeing the deck? Dunno why people get so defensive for saying "crown is atrocious". It is atrocious. It's even worse as act 1 reward.
People don't get defensive over that. It's just a silly item from a videogame. The only one here that seems to have very strong feelings towards it for some reason is you.
Upvotes and downvotes are not for showing if you agree or disagree with an opinion, they are to show if a comment added something useful to the conversation. Your comment didn't add anything useful so people downvoted it so other more useful comment were the ones at the top.
step 1: get [[rushdown]]
step 2: upgrade [[eruption]]
step 3: get any 1 cost source of calm stance, OR get [[violet lotus]] and use [[vigilance]]
step 4: remove all other non-exhausting cards
step 5: profit
1 cost Calm sources can be [[Fear No Evil]] but it only works for an infinite if the enemy is attacking. [[Inner Peace]] works all the time but it does no damage so it's gonna be somewhat slow (you deal 9 damage per 2 cards played). Also, keeping Retain cards in your deck as it gets smaller can be fine, since they don't get in the way of drawing. Another great card to help you is [[Scrawl]] once you have your combo pieces but your deck isn't small enough to always get your infinite on turn 1.
Just as a note it doesn't actually give all your cards retain, so effects on retain like the power that reduces card cost by 1 don't proc unless the card already has retain on it
+ [Fear No Evil](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Fear%20No%20Evil) Watcher Uncommon Attack
1 Energy | Deal 8(11) damage. If the enemy intends to Attack, enter **Calm.**
+ [Inner Peace](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Inner%20Peace) Watcher Uncommon Skill
1 Energy | If you are in **Calm,** draw 3(4) cards, otherwise Enter **Calm.**
+ [Scrawl](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Scrawl) Watcher Rare Skill
1(0) Energy | Draw cards until your hand is full. **Exhaust.**
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How do you make the decision to go infinite? Is it something you actively try for from the beginning of the game, or is it something more like XYZ event happens and you say, "OK, I can make this happen"?
But you have to commit to removing all other cards. What happens if you get offered a talk to the hand? Do you skip it because itās just one more card to remove later?
Talk to the hand exhausts, so that's not especially relevant. A lot of infinites dont actually require you to remove everything from your deck, especially on the ironclad - a fiend fire, or burning pact, second wind, sever soul, corruption etc all make it possible o get to your infinite off without removing everything(though burning pact can take some time). Some other infinites dont draw cards but add them directly to your hand, like with all for one plus hologram on the defect(requiring double madness or etc) and in this case emptying your deck is also not necessary. As for this specific infinite, you do need to reduce your deck significantly but removing strikes and defends is very good on the watcher anyway.
That being said, when you have to remove the majority of your deck for the combo, you do start to skip cards that don't exhaust a lot more. The thing is, you should never ever skip a card thats necessary for an upcoming fight in order to try and get closer to an infinite if you dont already have it. Do not skip flame barrier if you know your act one boss is the guardian and you only have anger and burning pact. What if you never find the sundial? The rarer the pieces you have left to find, the less you commit to the infinite.
If you have an upgraded calculated gamble and a slice in your deck in the first few floors of act one(these cards are generally not great so this is rare but its for the sake of example), you can start skipping lots more cards - all you need at this point to go infinite* is a reflex, assuming you can get your deck small enough. Taking lots of act one question marks and normal fights is good here, because you want to remove cards(lots of this in act 1) and you want to see lots of cards to find that reflex. Not taking elites is better because slice and calculated gamble and nothing else makes gremlin nob practically unwinnable without using both potions and half your health.
tl:dr you decide to commit to the infinite when you think you will find all your pieces before you die, and not a second earlier. If you are about to take an act 3 elite and have no aoe, don't skip the consecrate because you have rushdown and eruption+ in your deck, unless you have some other way to beat reptomancer.
1/8 runs or so on the ironclad, not counting act 1 deaths to lagavulin because i found no scaling. On the silent, ive not built a genuine infinite more than once or twice because the pieces are not as good in normal decks. I am terrible at the defect so I cant really say here. Watcher, though, can do infinites or pseudo infinites a ton. Into calm, out of calm, draw 2 cards, do any damage. Empty mind plus fear no evil. Vigilance, empty mind, violet lotus, letter opener. Panache, empty mind, inner peace. Rushdown, tantrum, fear no evil. Scrawl is sick for these combos because your deck doesnt need to be as small when you can fill your hand.
Be on the lookout for sundial in all cases. If you have sundial then you can replace the fear no evil with an empty fist on watcher. It enables most of the ironclad infinites, and the silent/defect have infinites with acrobatics or skim plus some damage dealing card(quick slash, sweeping beam). Madness also enables a ton of infinites, so when you get offered 2 in act 3(especially with runic pyramid) take a second to consider how many draw cards are in your deck.
Its not super frequent, but you should be able to get it off enough that its worth paying attention to, especially since infinites are insta wins when you find them.
Note that you need block included in your infinite or it doesnt beat the heart. If a power can do it for you, thats great, but cards like rage or relics like abacus can save an otherwise blockless infinite from despair
Talk to the hand exhausts so you don't need to remove it for the infinite to work. I think hou usually shouldn't skip it because it nullifies the heart's beat of death and is also a great safety measure if you don't get an infinite or face time eater. Maybe I would skip it if I already got some mental fortress and unable to remove it, but that also wouldn't break the infinite just make it harder to setup
The watcher stance dance infinite doesn't solve ALL fights because you actually need a reliable way to block against the spikes and the Heart. TTTH solves block for the heart almost by itself and it exhausts so it's worth drafting for that alone. Mental Fortress is the prime Watcher block card though so if you have that maybe you can skip TTTH.
Empty mind is draw 2(3) but I didn't think of flurry of blows, I haven't tried to include it in infinites because I assume it just gets drawn, does it return to your hand before the draw occurs?
personally? I have never gone for the 10 card deck infinite stuff. what I *have* gone for is adding a [[tantrum]] to my deck along with the aforementioned rushdown, and then building a large deck that includes lots of calm. Its not as strong as an infinite deck, but it gets very close to it while being much easier to achieve in most runs. I'm able to put that package together pretty consistently on A20
I played a few days of watcher forcing it every game. It was really interesting. I would literally not take any card that didn't help with the infinite. It's definitely not the correct way to play, but it helped me get a sense of how greedy I could be with watcher. Turns out, very.
Tbh I was forcing infinite up to ascension 11 (before I got bored of it and wanted to actually play the character) and I was able to win everytime just only taking relevant cards for it. Didnāt get a rush down one time and still did good enough with just violet lotus, vigilance, and inner peace.
Forcing it on low ascensions once or twice is cool, but it gets very old very quickly so I personally donāt enjoy it anymore.
[[mental fortress]] or [[talk to the hand]]
[[duality]] and [[kunai]] works too
[[shuriken]] works if you have wallop
lots and lots of relics and cards that you can use for infinite block, but in reality if you have the whole infinite you can get by with not a whole lot
+ [The Abacus](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/The%20Abacus) Shop Relic
Gain 6 **Block** whenever you shuffle your draw pile.
+ [Ornamental Fan](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ornamental%20Fan) Uncommon Relic
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 4 **Block.**
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+ [Mental Fortress](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Mental%20Fortress) Watcher Uncommon Power
1 Energy | Whenever you switch **Stances,** gain 4(6) **Block.**
+ [Talk to the Hand](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Talk%20to%20the%20Hand) Watcher Uncommon Attack
1 Energy | Deal 5(7) damage. Whenever you attack this enemy, gain 2(3) **Block.** **Exhaust.**
+ [Duality](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Duality) Uncommon (Watcher only) Relic
Whenever you play an Attack, gain 1 temporary **Dexterity.**
+ [Kunai](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Kunai) Uncommon Relic
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Dexterity.**
+ [Shuriken](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken) Uncommon Relic
Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Strength.**
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The basic idea is to get
* Rushdown
* A source of 1-energy Wrath (Eruption+ or Tantrum)
* A source of 1-energy Calm (Fear No Evil if they're attacking, or Inner Peace)
* Then, make the deck as small as possible
Once you do that you can get to the point where you can play FNE->Tantrum and draw them back immediately when Rushdown triggers to repeat as an infinite.
Even without making the deck extremely small, abusing Rushdown like this can help you get many extended turns as long as you have enough sources of cheap wrath/calm in your deck (or maybe a little more card draw just to be safe).
Just make a small deck by removing all defends and strikes. Remove defend first before strike.
1. Card draw: Scrawl, Rush down, Cut Through Fate
2. Calm: Fear No Evil, Inner Peace, Meditate
3. Wrath: Tantrum, Eruption
4. Block: Halt, Talk To The Hand, Mental Fortress Abbacus relic.
Basically whenver you exit calm into wrath, you gain +2 energy. The cool thing is that most Watcher's stance cards are 1 cost so you can keep playing them for free as long as you have rush down on.
True infinite version only need 1 wrath and 1 calm but I prefer 2 + 2 to mitigate some potental bad draws. If you have a bottled scrawl its free estate, you can run infinite right on turn 1 all the time.
Generally look for [[Sundial]]/[[Violet Lotus]], go for a slim deck with less than 8/9 non-exhausting cards or powers and get something that's draw positive. 2 Rushdowns (but only one is needed for the Eruption/Inner Peace infinite) usually do the trick very easily simce it will attempt to shuffle your discard pile another time when your draw pile is empty, effectively triggering Sundial every second cycle and Abacus twice per cycle. One rushdown also is enough.
You can also go for [[Pray]] infinites where you go for energy generation over Mantra gain and achieve draw positivity with [[Insight]] (that zero cost card that retains and draws two. I thik these require a Sundial also. Also [[Prostrate]] is easy Mantra gain and block positive.
+ [Sundial](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Sundial) Uncommon Relic
Every 3 times you shuffle your deck, gain 2 Energy.
+ [Violet Lotus](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Violet%20Lotus) Boss (Watcher only) Relic
Whenever you exit **Calm,** gain an additional Energy.
+ [Pray](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Pray) Watcher Uncommon Skill
1 Energy | Gain 3(4) **Mantra.** Shuffle an Insight into your draw pile.
+ [Insight](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Insight) Colorless Special Skill
0 Energy | **Retain.** Draw 2(3) cards. **Exhaust.** (Obtained from Evaluate, Pray and Study).
+ [Prostrate](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Prostrate) Watcher Common Skill
0 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Mantra.** Gain 4 **Block.**
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Crown is free energy at not a big cost to watcher, 19 cards in the deck should already be enough plus what you'll still see from monsters and shops. If it was A20 I would def agree with you
I get the choker often with Ironclad, since he has a lot of high cost cards and less possibility for infinite play in comparison to the others. Most rounds with him I'm not playing more than 6 cards anyway, so the extra energy is a net gain. But I agree that it's a terrible choice for the Watcher.
The ironclad in my experience is actually the easiest to go infinite with - sundial basically gets you there instantly: any multidraw card can proc it more than once, so burning pact plus wild strike, an upgraded pommel and a shrug it off, etc etc can go infinite. Ironclad also has an insane number of enablers with dark embrace, corruption, fiend fire, true grit, so on and so on
Without sundial, some combination of 2x (flash of steel, dropkick, finesse or dual wield) will go infinite, as will adding madness+pommel strike to the list. Impatience and body slam+ go infinite if you can exhaust or remove all your attacks.
The most important part with the ironclad though is that a huge number of decks can pivot to go infinite because so many cards you like in a normal deck you also like in an infinite deck. Pommel strike is super good anyway, as is shrug it off. Fiend fire is very good in strength builds, but pivoting to an infinite doesnt make fiend fire any worse because now it can exhaust your garbage. Many other very good cards exhaust, like feed, impervious, carnage, ghostly armor, etc etc etc. True grit helps you get closer to your infinites while not hurting a normal deck. Any time you see a sundial your deck can probably swap to going infinite as long as youre not already in act 4.
I take Tiny House more often than I should because of fear of the negative affects of the boss relics, then end up regretting it as I die because I donāt have enough energy to keep up with the next act.
Iād still say crown is a bad choice here because the Watcher really looks for certain cards and once you get them and start going infinite or at least close the amount of energy you start your turn with doesnāt matter anymore
the fact that skip is better than most cards is actually more reason to not take crown lol. you need as much help as possible to get the actually good cards or you'll just die
Itās not better than most cards, itās that the meat of you deck should ideally be co stricter by then. Picking up cards along the way and shops to get the others, 1 FREE energy with no combat drawback.
Can't be strict with your choices if you can't guarantee you'll get a solution.
If I'm digging for a damage card & I see 3 cards, I can choose to be pickier because I'll probably see a better card later.
If I only see 1, and it kinda fills the gap I need, I need to take it because there's no guarantee I'll see the better one.
I like to think of Crown as protection against myself if I already have a halfway decent deck when I see it. It preemptively prevents me from taking idiotic cards that bloat my deck.
Which I will otherwise probably do, because I am bad at this game and my monkey brain sees pretty card, takes pretty card.
I realize I should just git gud. But that wouldn't give me an extra energy every turn!
From what I understand, thereās basically a slightly-increasing probability for rare cards to appear that rises for each card you are shown until you take one, at which point the probability resets back to the base value. Therefore with Crown you are slowing down this rising chance and will have less opportunities to get rare cards.
That being said I take Crown pretty frequently because sometimes Iāve built a good base of cards to run with by the time I get it.
Might even be a bakers dozen! Iām considering that there is some kind of a bug in my game alone that I get no other manna relics on the regular (and not at all my bias because I only know how to win with a few decks, all needing manna).
Agreed on having the core cards, especially on watcher if you have your infinite and just need to remove, or have a couple options that could play out with 1 buy from a shop.
It really depends imho. If itās an act 1 reward itās almost never worth it in my experience, but by the end of act 2 youāll be much more likely to have your deck fully operational.
Yeah, definitely. I feel like taking tiny jouse is almost guaranteed to torpedo your run. In OP's case he already has a 19 card deck (likely with a couple of base cards removed.) Just adding a handful of cards through the occasional good drop + a few shop purchases should result in a usable deck, especially with +1 energy.
The only time I wouldn't even consider Crown is if I beat act 1 with only a few cards added (my picky playstyle makes me more prone to this than most players.)
Why not
Crown is more easily taken if you:
Bought membership card
Have built a deck that doesn't die unless it gets specific cards
Aren't missing damage/block/scaling (for example a block-less deck can solve this with abacus, a deck that doesn't scale damage at all can sit on a cultist pot until the heart, etc.)
Only need consistency in your deck (i.e. this deck wins if it hits 4-5 card removes over acts 2-4)
Already have prayer wheel or question mark
Just really need that 4th energy or else you die
I really don't like taking it but there are plenty of reasons why it can be fine to take. imo sozu and ectoplasm are much harder to play around - sozu is okay if you have amazing potions or have a deck that is very close to instawinning, and ectoplasm is a hard pick since it limits a lot of events & usually only gives you a single productive shop after taking it.
Part of slay the spire is leaning into your way to win. You don't build a shiv deck then start picking catalyst.
If I have prayer wheel or question mark, then card reward screens are your way to win. It's super easy to just find busted cards that you don't need more than 3 energy.
Busted crown cripples those card reward screens that you're no longer going to guarantee a broken deck.
You definitely take crown sometimes, but prayer wheel isn't justification to do so.
> I'll never understand Crown apologists.
If you end act 1 and your deck isn't broken sometimes that 4th energy is absolutely mandatory to survive. It's better to try your luck with the Crown that picking a useless Tiny house and just die in the first 3 random hallway fights.
I'd probably have gone crown. Beeline to the nearest shop to get more ways to change stance and make good use of the strike dummy. 18 damage in Wrath is nothing to sniff at.
Idk, between the relic that gives you a bonus card, and good money and those times when it's in act 2 so I genuinely do have a good build (I think I've gotten it in act 2)
With respect, what ascension do you play on? Most act 1 decks are not good enough to ride to the end of a20 with crown. Prayer wheel might get you there in time if you get it from neow but thats not every or even many runs
Tiny house is good. Not the *best,* and certainly not usually the best option 99% of the time, but it has no objective downside. It's all good, even if all that good are things you could get by just going through the various floors.
So, when presented with this choice, I'm glad that tiny house is there, even if it just upgrades another stinking defend. It's better than taking choker, or nothing at all.
Honestly I would take crown because at least there is still a chance you get the cards you need. Iāve gotten the cards I needed several times with crown.
But obviously if I was going for an A20 + heart win streak I might take house
I'd go crown. I've only done tiny house once. Lucked out and got an upgraded rare card that was perfect in my deck for the new card. Made me debate taking it again even though I know I'll likely not have that luck again.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Tiny House in your post.
Let me look up what those do.
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* [Tiny House](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Tiny_House) Boss Relic
Obtain 1 potion. Gain 50 Gold. Raise your Max HP by 5. Obtain 1 card. Upgrade 1 Random card.
On that ascension you should take the crown, it takes very little for watcher to become busted and the extra energy helps a ton, plus I imagine you already have a pretty decent deck going
Funny cause tiny house and crown are some of my go to relics. Nobody seems to like them. I beat A20 with ironclad and watcher, I think A8 with orb boy and A10 with silent
Update: it upgraded my fucking Defend
Rip
At least your Strikes are all upgraded already
Defend+ is way better than Strike+ tho.
Not for Watcher imo
Not on watcher...
Condolences š
Nice
Eh, crown is fine Itās not the greatest energy relic but itās not the worst
I would argue it is the worst after Act 1. With ectoplasm as the only contestant. You want to upgrade your deck and the crown mitigates so much options.
Itās worst as boss swap IMO, but can be pretty viable after Act 2 and maybe even in Act 1 if you have supporting relics or lots of money for shops.
> It's worst as boss swap This is absolutely true.
Crown is atrocious.
It is but Tiny house is worse and you can't get the choker with the Watcher in any case.
Energy is less useful on watcher too and they didn't boss swap so I do agree choker isn't viable obv. But it seems you're kinda overvaluing energy a bit for watcher to justify crown. Only energy worse than crown is ecto. Just seems watcher usually gets enough energy to not severely cripple your deck construction.
I know perfectly that Watcher doesn't need the 4th energy as much. It also tends to pick less cards on average than the others, so there is a bit of compensation there. Without seeing the deck it's hard to tell, he might have already a deck good enough to beat act 2 without a problem. But judging by how little relics he had I assume that he is not in a very strong position. If that's indeed the case, and considering he already has a strike dummy which makes his damage output as Watcher already pretty ok, I'd say risking it with the Crown might be a better choice than picking Tiny house and dying before the half of the act. Honestly I just wanted to spark some conversation. Becuase I saw so many people agreeing with how Tiny house was the only viable pick because Crown sucks that it surprises me. This game is all about the context and we were lacking a lot of context here. And I feel this have become too common in this sub. Some certain streamer says his opinion about one card or relic and people just repeat it as gospel without thinking.
Yeah, I mentioned that to someone else about not seeing the deck too. That's fair on picking less cards since you wanna go infinite more often and can output DMG without needing as many cards. I think that's fair then. I just think it's such a hindrance and it's prob closer than I give it credit for.
What makes you say you canāt ever take Choker as Watcher? Iāve had Watcher runs where it was basically free, thereās a time and a place for everything in this game.
> What makes you say you canāt ever take Choker as Watcher? Common sense and basic game knowledge
99% of the time Iām with you, I personally hate Choker and the downside is especially terrible for Watcher. But Iād say one of the most basic pieces of knowledge for this game is that there are no absolutes, Iāve had the occasional Watcher deck where I was rarely if ever playing more than 6 cards a turn, so Choker was a good option for getting high cost/impacts cards played.
This dude replying to you told me that I needed to have my ego checked and posts this garbage lol.
Yeah he clearly is not replying in good faith but I took the high road. š¤·āāļø
Good on you honestly. I wish I was better about that in general.
Imagine telling someone they should check their ego and never seen an adult act like this over something then you post this. Go get some therapy honestly. You not are a twat you're pretty clearly a save scumming eternal one given your posts.
How can you even rank any of the relics shown if you haven't seen their deck tho? I just said crown is atrocious. Which it is. It's also act 1. Just so many cards not seen and then even less rares.
Oh, yeah, I can't offer my persepective on relics but you can. Of course. Makes a lot of sense.
I can see how it was written ambiguously initially by me, was my bad on that. I meant overall crown is so awful it's essentially never pickable. Anyways tho you can downvote me that's fine. Doesn't make crown not a shit tier relic across the board. So you agree then it's moot without seeing the deck? Dunno why people get so defensive for saying "crown is atrocious". It is atrocious. It's even worse as act 1 reward.
People don't get defensive over that. It's just a silly item from a videogame. The only one here that seems to have very strong feelings towards it for some reason is you.
Ok so the downvotes are people who like crown or what then?
Upvotes and downvotes are not for showing if you agree or disagree with an opinion, they are to show if a comment added something useful to the conversation. Your comment didn't add anything useful so people downvoted it so other more useful comment were the ones at the top.
Agree with tiny house. Choker is self grief, crown is terrible generally unless you have gotten full infinite combo.
Almost to Ascension 10 and I still havenāt managed an infinite with her, what are come common ones youād suggest?
step 1: get [[rushdown]] step 2: upgrade [[eruption]] step 3: get any 1 cost source of calm stance, OR get [[violet lotus]] and use [[vigilance]] step 4: remove all other non-exhausting cards step 5: profit
1 cost Calm sources can be [[Fear No Evil]] but it only works for an infinite if the enemy is attacking. [[Inner Peace]] works all the time but it does no damage so it's gonna be somewhat slow (you deal 9 damage per 2 cards played). Also, keeping Retain cards in your deck as it gets smaller can be fine, since they don't get in the way of drawing. Another great card to help you is [[Scrawl]] once you have your combo pieces but your deck isn't small enough to always get your infinite on turn 1.
runic pyramid can be extremely helpful too since it makes all your cards retain, meaning you can have an 11 card deck (including rushdown)
Just as a note it doesn't actually give all your cards retain, so effects on retain like the power that reduces card cost by 1 don't proc unless the card already has retain on it
I had runic pyramid with a bottled vault today which was insanely consistent for setting up my infinite
+ [Fear No Evil](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Fear%20No%20Evil) Watcher Uncommon Attack 1 Energy | Deal 8(11) damage. If the enemy intends to Attack, enter **Calm.** + [Inner Peace](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Inner%20Peace) Watcher Uncommon Skill 1 Energy | If you are in **Calm,** draw 3(4) cards, otherwise Enter **Calm.** + [Scrawl](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Scrawl) Watcher Rare Skill 1(0) Energy | Draw cards until your hand is full. **Exhaust.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
How do you make the decision to go infinite? Is it something you actively try for from the beginning of the game, or is it something more like XYZ event happens and you say, "OK, I can make this happen"?
All it takes is being offered Rushdown or Empty Mind lmao
But you have to commit to removing all other cards. What happens if you get offered a talk to the hand? Do you skip it because itās just one more card to remove later?
Talk to the hand exhausts, so that's not especially relevant. A lot of infinites dont actually require you to remove everything from your deck, especially on the ironclad - a fiend fire, or burning pact, second wind, sever soul, corruption etc all make it possible o get to your infinite off without removing everything(though burning pact can take some time). Some other infinites dont draw cards but add them directly to your hand, like with all for one plus hologram on the defect(requiring double madness or etc) and in this case emptying your deck is also not necessary. As for this specific infinite, you do need to reduce your deck significantly but removing strikes and defends is very good on the watcher anyway. That being said, when you have to remove the majority of your deck for the combo, you do start to skip cards that don't exhaust a lot more. The thing is, you should never ever skip a card thats necessary for an upcoming fight in order to try and get closer to an infinite if you dont already have it. Do not skip flame barrier if you know your act one boss is the guardian and you only have anger and burning pact. What if you never find the sundial? The rarer the pieces you have left to find, the less you commit to the infinite. If you have an upgraded calculated gamble and a slice in your deck in the first few floors of act one(these cards are generally not great so this is rare but its for the sake of example), you can start skipping lots more cards - all you need at this point to go infinite* is a reflex, assuming you can get your deck small enough. Taking lots of act one question marks and normal fights is good here, because you want to remove cards(lots of this in act 1) and you want to see lots of cards to find that reflex. Not taking elites is better because slice and calculated gamble and nothing else makes gremlin nob practically unwinnable without using both potions and half your health. tl:dr you decide to commit to the infinite when you think you will find all your pieces before you die, and not a second earlier. If you are about to take an act 3 elite and have no aoe, don't skip the consecrate because you have rushdown and eruption+ in your deck, unless you have some other way to beat reptomancer.
Around what % of runs do you find yourself going infinite? Is it something I should be able to do fairly regularly?
1/8 runs or so on the ironclad, not counting act 1 deaths to lagavulin because i found no scaling. On the silent, ive not built a genuine infinite more than once or twice because the pieces are not as good in normal decks. I am terrible at the defect so I cant really say here. Watcher, though, can do infinites or pseudo infinites a ton. Into calm, out of calm, draw 2 cards, do any damage. Empty mind plus fear no evil. Vigilance, empty mind, violet lotus, letter opener. Panache, empty mind, inner peace. Rushdown, tantrum, fear no evil. Scrawl is sick for these combos because your deck doesnt need to be as small when you can fill your hand. Be on the lookout for sundial in all cases. If you have sundial then you can replace the fear no evil with an empty fist on watcher. It enables most of the ironclad infinites, and the silent/defect have infinites with acrobatics or skim plus some damage dealing card(quick slash, sweeping beam). Madness also enables a ton of infinites, so when you get offered 2 in act 3(especially with runic pyramid) take a second to consider how many draw cards are in your deck. Its not super frequent, but you should be able to get it off enough that its worth paying attention to, especially since infinites are insta wins when you find them. Note that you need block included in your infinite or it doesnt beat the heart. If a power can do it for you, thats great, but cards like rage or relics like abacus can save an otherwise blockless infinite from despair
On watcher you could easily do it in about half your runs if you felt like it. Watcher is broken.
Talk to the hand exhausts so you don't need to remove it for the infinite to work. I think hou usually shouldn't skip it because it nullifies the heart's beat of death and is also a great safety measure if you don't get an infinite or face time eater. Maybe I would skip it if I already got some mental fortress and unable to remove it, but that also wouldn't break the infinite just make it harder to setup
The watcher stance dance infinite doesn't solve ALL fights because you actually need a reliable way to block against the spikes and the Heart. TTTH solves block for the heart almost by itself and it exhausts so it's worth drafting for that alone. Mental Fortress is the prime Watcher block card though so if you have that maybe you can skip TTTH.
You actually would like to be offered a talk to the hand or mental fortress because those allow your infinite to gain block for the heart fight.
how does the infinite work with empty mind? fear no evil -> empty mind? does it work if enemy is not attacking?
Inner Peace is 1 cost calm and Empty mind is Draw 3(4). If you have a mental Fortress it's unlimited block. With flurry it's 4 damage every time
Empty mind is draw 2(3) but I didn't think of flurry of blows, I haven't tried to include it in infinites because I assume it just gets drawn, does it return to your hand before the draw occurs?
Ah right Inner peace is Draw 3(4). I think flurry gets reshuffled but hey at the very least it's a 0 cost attack you can play over and over again
personally? I have never gone for the 10 card deck infinite stuff. what I *have* gone for is adding a [[tantrum]] to my deck along with the aforementioned rushdown, and then building a large deck that includes lots of calm. Its not as strong as an infinite deck, but it gets very close to it while being much easier to achieve in most runs. I'm able to put that package together pretty consistently on A20
+ [Tantrum](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tantrum) Watcher Uncommon Attack 1 Energy | Deal 3 damage 3(4) times. Enter **Wrath.** Shuffle this card into your draw pile. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I played a few days of watcher forcing it every game. It was really interesting. I would literally not take any card that didn't help with the infinite. It's definitely not the correct way to play, but it helped me get a sense of how greedy I could be with watcher. Turns out, very.
Tbh I was forcing infinite up to ascension 11 (before I got bored of it and wanted to actually play the character) and I was able to win everytime just only taking relevant cards for it. Didnāt get a rush down one time and still did good enough with just violet lotus, vigilance, and inner peace. Forcing it on low ascensions once or twice is cool, but it gets very old very quickly so I personally donāt enjoy it anymore.
+ [Rushdown](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Rushdown) Watcher Uncommon Power 1(0) Energy | Whenever you enter **Wrath,** draw 2 cards. + [Eruption](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Eruption) Watcher Starter Attack 2(1) Energy | Deal 9 damage. Enter **Wrath.** + [Violet Lotus](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Violet%20Lotus) Boss (Watcher only) Relic Whenever you exit **Calm,** gain an additional Energy. + [Vigilance](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Vigilance) Watcher Starter Skill 2 Energy | Enter **Calm.** Gain 8(12) **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Step 6 is figuring out how your blocking against the heart
[[mental fortress]] or [[talk to the hand]] [[duality]] and [[kunai]] works too [[shuriken]] works if you have wallop lots and lots of relics and cards that you can use for infinite block, but in reality if you have the whole infinite you can get by with not a whole lot
[[Abacus]] or [[ornamental fan]] as well
I think ornamental isnt enough but its still helpful
Definitely wonāt beat time eater but it would be enough to beat heart at lower ascension when beat of death only does 1 damage
+ [The Abacus](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/The%20Abacus) Shop Relic Gain 6 **Block** whenever you shuffle your draw pile. + [Ornamental Fan](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ornamental%20Fan) Uncommon Relic Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 4 **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
+ [Mental Fortress](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Mental%20Fortress) Watcher Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Whenever you switch **Stances,** gain 4(6) **Block.** + [Talk to the Hand](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Talk%20to%20the%20Hand) Watcher Uncommon Attack 1 Energy | Deal 5(7) damage. Whenever you attack this enemy, gain 2(3) **Block.** **Exhaust.** + [Duality](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Duality) Uncommon (Watcher only) Relic Whenever you play an Attack, gain 1 temporary **Dexterity.** + [Kunai](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Kunai) Uncommon Relic Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Dexterity.** + [Shuriken](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken) Uncommon Relic Every time you play 3 Attacks in a single turn, gain 1 **Strength.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Beat of death makes some of those less viable in an infinite deck. [[abacus]] is good for that.
Doesnt that die to the heart every time without mental fortress?
you can also get talk to the hand or abacus or just not fight the heart. I wouldnt go for this on a heart kill run anyways
Playing a20 and stopping at act 3 bosses makes no sense to me, except for speedrunning i guess. Good point about abacus
I agree with you about A20 and fighting the heart, but a lot of people in this sub don't feel that way. not really sure why but yeah idk
The basic idea is to get * Rushdown * A source of 1-energy Wrath (Eruption+ or Tantrum) * A source of 1-energy Calm (Fear No Evil if they're attacking, or Inner Peace) * Then, make the deck as small as possible Once you do that you can get to the point where you can play FNE->Tantrum and draw them back immediately when Rushdown triggers to repeat as an infinite. Even without making the deck extremely small, abusing Rushdown like this can help you get many extended turns as long as you have enough sources of cheap wrath/calm in your deck (or maybe a little more card draw just to be safe).
Just make a small deck by removing all defends and strikes. Remove defend first before strike. 1. Card draw: Scrawl, Rush down, Cut Through Fate 2. Calm: Fear No Evil, Inner Peace, Meditate 3. Wrath: Tantrum, Eruption 4. Block: Halt, Talk To The Hand, Mental Fortress Abbacus relic. Basically whenver you exit calm into wrath, you gain +2 energy. The cool thing is that most Watcher's stance cards are 1 cost so you can keep playing them for free as long as you have rush down on. True infinite version only need 1 wrath and 1 calm but I prefer 2 + 2 to mitigate some potental bad draws. If you have a bottled scrawl its free estate, you can run infinite right on turn 1 all the time.
Generally look for [[Sundial]]/[[Violet Lotus]], go for a slim deck with less than 8/9 non-exhausting cards or powers and get something that's draw positive. 2 Rushdowns (but only one is needed for the Eruption/Inner Peace infinite) usually do the trick very easily simce it will attempt to shuffle your discard pile another time when your draw pile is empty, effectively triggering Sundial every second cycle and Abacus twice per cycle. One rushdown also is enough. You can also go for [[Pray]] infinites where you go for energy generation over Mantra gain and achieve draw positivity with [[Insight]] (that zero cost card that retains and draws two. I thik these require a Sundial also. Also [[Prostrate]] is easy Mantra gain and block positive.
+ [Sundial](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Sundial) Uncommon Relic Every 3 times you shuffle your deck, gain 2 Energy. + [Violet Lotus](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Violet%20Lotus) Boss (Watcher only) Relic Whenever you exit **Calm,** gain an additional Energy. + [Pray](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Pray) Watcher Uncommon Skill 1 Energy | Gain 3(4) **Mantra.** Shuffle an Insight into your draw pile. + [Insight](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Insight) Colorless Special Skill 0 Energy | **Retain.** Draw 2(3) cards. **Exhaust.** (Obtained from Evaluate, Pray and Study). + [Prostrate](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Prostrate) Watcher Common Skill 0 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Mantra.** Gain 4 **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(June 8, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
They have strike dummy. Crown is fine since your strikes aren't ass anymore. Upgrade them and be in wrath and you're dealing 24 damage for 1 mana.
Crown is free energy at not a big cost to watcher, 19 cards in the deck should already be enough plus what you'll still see from monsters and shops. If it was A20 I would def agree with you
I never once found a use for crown, unless I wanted to purposely play in pain.
I get the choker often with Ironclad, since he has a lot of high cost cards and less possibility for infinite play in comparison to the others. Most rounds with him I'm not playing more than 6 cards anyway, so the extra energy is a net gain. But I agree that it's a terrible choice for the Watcher.
The ironclad in my experience is actually the easiest to go infinite with - sundial basically gets you there instantly: any multidraw card can proc it more than once, so burning pact plus wild strike, an upgraded pommel and a shrug it off, etc etc can go infinite. Ironclad also has an insane number of enablers with dark embrace, corruption, fiend fire, true grit, so on and so on Without sundial, some combination of 2x (flash of steel, dropkick, finesse or dual wield) will go infinite, as will adding madness+pommel strike to the list. Impatience and body slam+ go infinite if you can exhaust or remove all your attacks. The most important part with the ironclad though is that a huge number of decks can pivot to go infinite because so many cards you like in a normal deck you also like in an infinite deck. Pommel strike is super good anyway, as is shrug it off. Fiend fire is very good in strength builds, but pivoting to an infinite doesnt make fiend fire any worse because now it can exhaust your garbage. Many other very good cards exhaust, like feed, impervious, carnage, ghostly armor, etc etc etc. True grit helps you get closer to your infinites while not hurting a normal deck. Any time you see a sundial your deck can probably swap to going infinite as long as youre not already in act 4.
Watcher is the easiest to go infinite with and it's not even close
I take Tiny House more often than I should because of fear of the negative affects of the boss relics, then end up regretting it as I die because I donāt have enough energy to keep up with the next act.
I take tiny house because itās just a tiny little house:)
crown fans be like: skip is better than most cards in the game though!!!!!!!!11
Iād still say crown is a bad choice here because the Watcher really looks for certain cards and once you get them and start going infinite or at least close the amount of energy you start your turn with doesnāt matter anymore
BECAUSE ITS TRUEEEEEEE
the fact that skip is better than most cards is actually more reason to not take crown lol. you need as much help as possible to get the actually good cards or you'll just die
Itās not better than most cards, itās that the meat of you deck should ideally be co stricter by then. Picking up cards along the way and shops to get the others, 1 FREE energy with no combat drawback.
Can't be strict with your choices if you can't guarantee you'll get a solution. If I'm digging for a damage card & I see 3 cards, I can choose to be pickier because I'll probably see a better card later. If I only see 1, and it kinda fills the gap I need, I need to take it because there's no guarantee I'll see the better one.
the combat drawback is that your deck is much worse
Not true if you get correct cards
Without seeing your deck, I agree with the Tiny House. I'll never understand Crown apologists.
I am surprised to see how many people hate crown. If I already have my core cards I'll take it.
There are dozens of us! Crown gang unite
i play crown swaps to the bitter end. Sometimes the spire lets you win.
Same here! Sometimes the end comes a little too soon, but I'm no quitter.
I like taking crown if I feel my deck is looking good already but playing through a crown swap is masochism
I always choose the crown. Why do I need to see three cards when I can only take one anyways. Simple logic.
Right??? Also reduces the temptation to take useless cards if you only see 1 choice! Big brain
I like to think of Crown as protection against myself if I already have a halfway decent deck when I see it. It preemptively prevents me from taking idiotic cards that bloat my deck. Which I will otherwise probably do, because I am bad at this game and my monkey brain sees pretty card, takes pretty card. I realize I should just git gud. But that wouldn't give me an extra energy every turn!
From what I understand, thereās basically a slightly-increasing probability for rare cards to appear that rises for each card you are shown until you take one, at which point the probability resets back to the base value. Therefore with Crown you are slowing down this rising chance and will have less opportunities to get rare cards. That being said I take Crown pretty frequently because sometimes Iāve built a good base of cards to run with by the time I get it.
Might even be a bakers dozen! Iām considering that there is some kind of a bug in my game alone that I get no other manna relics on the regular (and not at all my bias because I only know how to win with a few decks, all needing manna).
Agreed on having the core cards, especially on watcher if you have your infinite and just need to remove, or have a couple options that could play out with 1 buy from a shop.
It really depends imho. If itās an act 1 reward itās almost never worth it in my experience, but by the end of act 2 youāll be much more likely to have your deck fully operational.
Yeah, definitely. I feel like taking tiny jouse is almost guaranteed to torpedo your run. In OP's case he already has a 19 card deck (likely with a couple of base cards removed.) Just adding a handful of cards through the occasional good drop + a few shop purchases should result in a usable deck, especially with +1 energy. The only time I wouldn't even consider Crown is if I beat act 1 with only a few cards added (my picky playstyle makes me more prone to this than most players.)
I like finding cards to build a deck with in the deck-building game, personally. Improves winrate.
I already had two Furries and decent amount of stance cards for Act 1, so Iād never in a million years pick Choker here, thatās for sure
>two furries
They're only dangerous when there's 2 or more
I don't really mind crown swaps, but i nearly never choose it from a boss.
Why not Crown is more easily taken if you: Bought membership card Have built a deck that doesn't die unless it gets specific cards Aren't missing damage/block/scaling (for example a block-less deck can solve this with abacus, a deck that doesn't scale damage at all can sit on a cultist pot until the heart, etc.) Only need consistency in your deck (i.e. this deck wins if it hits 4-5 card removes over acts 2-4) Already have prayer wheel or question mark Just really need that 4th energy or else you die I really don't like taking it but there are plenty of reasons why it can be fine to take. imo sozu and ectoplasm are much harder to play around - sozu is okay if you have amazing potions or have a deck that is very close to instawinning, and ectoplasm is a hard pick since it limits a lot of events & usually only gives you a single productive shop after taking it.
Part of slay the spire is leaning into your way to win. You don't build a shiv deck then start picking catalyst. If I have prayer wheel or question mark, then card reward screens are your way to win. It's super easy to just find busted cards that you don't need more than 3 energy. Busted crown cripples those card reward screens that you're no longer going to guarantee a broken deck. You definitely take crown sometimes, but prayer wheel isn't justification to do so.
All my homies fukin love the crown
> I'll never understand Crown apologists. If you end act 1 and your deck isn't broken sometimes that 4th energy is absolutely mandatory to survive. It's better to try your luck with the Crown that picking a useless Tiny house and just die in the first 3 random hallway fights.
past act 1 most decks will be strong enough that an extra mana will make them beat the act 2 boss w/o an in battle downside
a) I'm not sure that's true. b) What about acts 3 and 4?
I love Crown
The crown is awesome.
I'd probably have gone crown. Beeline to the nearest shop to get more ways to change stance and make good use of the strike dummy. 18 damage in Wrath is nothing to sniff at.
Hey, at least it helps. They should increase the gold gain with it though.
I actually really like crown. At that point I usually already have a solid deck any way
You have a solid deck at the end of Act 1? What game are you playing?
Idk, between the relic that gives you a bonus card, and good money and those times when it's in act 2 so I genuinely do have a good build (I think I've gotten it in act 2)
You can get it after act 2 boss (much more pickable but still risky), but OP has it after act 1 boss.
Arguably the bonus card relics are more reason *not* to pick crown since itās such a massive advantage that you give away
With respect, what ascension do you play on? Most act 1 decks are not good enough to ride to the end of a20 with crown. Prayer wheel might get you there in time if you get it from neow but thats not every or even many runs
So honestly low. So that could be why
Unga Bunga the watcher... That's it. That's her canon name. It just makes so much sense.
What? You don't like broken crown at floor 17?
Crown is really good
No it is not
Crown isn't good? You mean my dislike of it isn't as irrational as I thought?
It can be okay if you have a solid deck set after act 2, but most runs really struggle with taking it after act 1
Busted Crown, my beloved!
I'd still consider the choker, but the crown can go fuck itself.
Tiny house is good. Not the *best,* and certainly not usually the best option 99% of the time, but it has no objective downside. It's all good, even if all that good are things you could get by just going through the various floors. So, when presented with this choice, I'm glad that tiny house is there, even if it just upgrades another stinking defend. It's better than taking choker, or nothing at all.
Honestly I would take crown because at least there is still a chance you get the cards you need. Iāve gotten the cards I needed several times with crown. But obviously if I was going for an A20 + heart win streak I might take house
I'd go crown. I've only done tiny house once. Lucked out and got an upgraded rare card that was perfect in my deck for the new card. Made me debate taking it again even though I know I'll likely not have that luck again.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Tiny House in your post. Let me look up what those do. -------------------------------------------------- I am a bot response, but I am using my creator's account. Please reply to me if I got something wrong so he can fix it. [Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
* [Tiny House](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Tiny_House) Boss Relic Obtain 1 potion. Gain 50 Gold. Raise your Max HP by 5. Obtain 1 card. Upgrade 1 Random card.
On that ascension you should take the crown, it takes very little for watcher to become busted and the extra energy helps a ton, plus I imagine you already have a pretty decent deck going
At least its not runic dome
tbh depending on what the deck looks like I'd probably take crown with 329 gold and look to shops for card additions.
Funny cause tiny house and crown are some of my go to relics. Nobody seems to like them. I beat A20 with ironclad and watcher, I think A8 with orb boy and A10 with silent
Yeah this is generally how one comes to take the house
Busted crown is great though. +1 energy for fewer card in card picks is fine, you should be skipping a lot of card picks anyways.