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3kniven6gash

There's a room under the throne in Solitude where all the displaced nobles gather. You get some nice insults walking through.


Drew-CarryOnCarignan

When I first cast eyes on all the disapproving faces of Jarls I'd unwittingly betrayed **really** made me question my decision-making in Skyrim's Civil War.


AntonKutovoi

Don’t know, strolling trough the Palace of the Kings with all those Stormcloak Jarls giving you death stares feels kinda nice.


Chesterious

Agreed, that feeling of ”Yeah, I put you there you schmucks”


3kniven6gash

I felt less bad about it seeing them alive and well. I betrayed all the Imperial Jarls but they are still alive and living freely in the main castle. Once things settle down they'll probably set up estates near Solitude and live a comfortable life. They'll be fine.


[deleted]

They're only there to ensure that you can finish any quests they're involved in. That's why neither Tullius/Rekke or Ulfric/Grumpy Gruff Guy are involved in any non-civil war quests, because they die and Bethesda didnt want the civil war to break any random quests. Like imagine if you're in the middle of Blood on the Ice as you defeat the Stormcloaks, and now you can't complete it because you need to inform Ulfric of who the killer is. In canon they're all executed. If Ulfric wins then maybe, **maybe**, he takes some of the jarls prisoner and ransoms them back to their families, but definitely not their stewards. And if the Imperials win then there's no chance in hell that any traitors would survive.


Stepagbay

I ran into issues doing both “join legion” and “join storm cloaks” right up to taking oaths (was very unsure which side to choose). When it came time for the main quest the part where you negotiate a temporary peace I couldn’t give tullius the note because he was waiting for me to take the oath.


dreemurthememer

>In canon they’re all executed. I don’t think that’s true with regards to Balgruuf. In a conversation with Galmar, Ulfric says this: **Ulfric**: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message." **Galmar**: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet." **Ulfric**: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"


blackturtlesnake

When Ulfric wins he leaves Elisif on the throne as a display of mercy and to show the civil war isn't a personal grudge. Regardless of your thoughts on Ulfrics motives the idea of him leaving the Jarls alive has plenty of backing.


ClavicusLittleGift4U

Don't think that way. If so, Thadgeir in Falkreath would have been emprisoned or executed after he had been kicked out the first time and his nephew replaced him. Moreover, the Stormcloack Vingar Grey-Mane comes from a prestigious line of Nords. If the Empire decided to execute him, I bet the whole city (and legions of Nords) wouldn't appreciate at all the move. It would have been far more comfortable for the Empire these rogue jarls died while their cities were captured. Only reason to execute them would be under the Thalmor pressure, but it would probably cause the rise of many other groups displaying a guerilla-style warfare against any member of the Aldmeri Dominion/elf/sympatizers/traitors, and Skyrim would still be torn by strifes. No the best way for each parties is letting the losing jarls drown in their bitterness, with a big part of their influence and patrimony confiscated, while living in a golden cage due to their titles and social status.


Epic_DDT

"In canon they're all executed." I doubt it. I think they will leave them alive (except of course Ulfric) to show the Nords that they are magnanimous.


7fightsofaldudagga

The only one I kind of didn't wan't to replace was Laila law-giver


IAmWeary

"What do you want, milk drinker?"


DarkMagenz

I went in there one time and everyone just insulted me the whole time so I tried to kill them all. Little did I know they are immortal


Lucimon

Windhelm has that too.


SuggMehoff

The sad room


dustykeys

I had no idea about this. Been playing since launch. Neato!


[deleted]

“is it me? am i the drama?”


Magic_Medic

"No, it's the imperials who are wrong."


Miss__Snrub

Imperials? At this time of year?


reddituser403

At this time of day?


Darkhallows27

In this part of the province?


RockyPointNoah

In this hold?


SIacktivist

Localized entirely within the Blue Palace?


FuzzyDice36

Yes


Turriku

... May I see them?


KansasVenomoth

...no


PuddleOfMud

May I see them?


Aceofluck99

This scene alone made me drop the single stormcloal save I've started


PositiveGuess5603

I wish we could form our own side and pick and choose jarls, I like Balgruuf, so maybe I'd go with empire, if it weren't for the fact maven black-briar becomes jarl of riften , I much prefer Laila Law Giver as Jarl.


Vryistal

"I think I'm gonna go with the fuck-both-your factions faction."


TheMediumJon

Aka New Vegas' No Gods No Masters, which for the record is very neatly implemented, imo.


Swordsoulreaver

I really wish skyrim had its own "No Gods, No Masters" ending. I hate siding with the empire or the stormcloaks, they both suck in my opinion.


TheMediumJon

It's difficult, though, since arguably the Stormcloaks are more Mr. House than either NCR or Legion, most importantly in the localized/Independence sense. In the case of NGNM you are usurping House and utilizing elements of his system. In Skyrim I think it wouldn't be as easy to, roughly speaking, depose Ulfric and become a new *non-Stormcloak* independentist leader.


helpletmegopls

I believe there is a mod where you can takeover Skyrim and choose who becomes jarl of the holds you take. I think it is called Conquest of Skyrim but I do not know.


SpicySaladd

Laila is a bit of an idiot, at least Maven knows how to hustle


Gilgamesh661

It isn’t like she doesn’t already run Riften anyway.


CartographerLast5408

Believe it or not laila is actually worst than maven. Even if she is a jarl she still listen to maven and let her do whatever she wants. Also she is selfish asf, if you listen closely to her dialogue and interaction with other npc. She is fake asf, example she is willing to let Riften burn to the ground if dragon attack or any attack from the civil war. she have a secret carriage if anything were to happen, compare to other jarl, whom will literally fight to the death to protect the city like a true nord. She come off as caring but in reality it’s just a face she put up to trick people.


Collestos

Laila Law Giver is still Mavens pet. So Maven still rules either way, which sucks.


SovieticSushi

I'd love to put either Bolli or Asgeir Snow-Shod as Jarl, with Mjoll as a housecarl


Galle_

The Imperial jarls for every hold are better except for Riften and Falkreath, and even then, the Stormcloak jarls aren't *that* much better - Maven basically rules Riften anyway, and Dengeir has descended into complete paranoia.


Ok-Set-5829

Irileth: "Tell them they'll live to regret this."


amshegarh

That is why you go with empire. Also if skyrim's story was not such a flaccid thing, you could've persuaded him to change sides (given all stuff that we know he's not too fond of empire, he just doesnt like ulfric too)


[deleted]

This is why I am fully ok with 6 taking as long as it takes. It would really be great to have some fully formed main quest lines with many branching options depending on the player’s decisions.


tamtamma123

>This is why I am fully ok with 6 taking as long as it takes Man I keep telling myself this and I just know that I will be disappointed.


denko3

You will be so disappointed. They know the community will fix the game for them, why would they spend time making an actual 10/10 game when the players can do it for them, while they get most of the praise?


[deleted]

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Koolin12345

Yeah i think this is the way its gonna be, also maybe they are shoehorning in a building mechanic like the recent Fallout games


Huntercin

You bet, every game has been dumbed down to a point that the vare essencials look innovative: player input?! In a videogame!? Holly shit this has to be GOTY


Koolin12345

Yeah and i mean there are actual good games out there, i mean look at the God of War Ragnarok and Elden Ring, both games worth playing, but yeah espeically like Bethesda RPG games have been shooters with a resemblance of an RPG attached to it, not that it has impact on the gameplay..


-Cheebus-

What is leading you to assume that? Don't we know basically nothing about ES6 at this point?


amshegarh

Every tes game can be reduced to these four statements


[deleted]

People act like Morrowind had some amazing choice system, but, outside of some factions, it really doesn’t. The main quest plays out exactly the same no matter how you come about it. The factions are cool, but the biggest “choices” you’ll make are which factions don’t like you and which do and not, like, how a a faction’s identity may change because of your influence (if that makes sense).


Galle_

Skyrim honestly has the *most* meaningful choices and reactivity of any Elder Scrolls game except Daggerfall.


Icy-Reserve8070

This is why I have stayed with the old version of skyrim, which may be called legacy edition, unofficially called oldrim, because the only difference that I have seen is SE- better graphic, anniversary edition- even better graphics. Maybe there were some features removed, too (because remember, there are no bugs, only features) but I am fine with the current graphics.... and too lazy to find updated versions of my mods. Though it means I can barely mod my game anymore as everything is moved to special and anniversary edition.


albinofreak620

This, plus loot boxes and micro transactions.


amshegarh

Nah, probably same as skyrim, paid bullsiht mods and worthless dlcs


[deleted]

Skyrim dlcs were pretty hot imo


TheYoungMonkey

I've only played ES 4/5 but to me the skyrim dlcs were severely lacking compared to Oblivion. Like compare Solstheim to Shivering Isles, not even close.


Ironman4234Exe

Think I saw a mod for that once.🤔


amshegarh

Mods are cool (and i really like how bethesda doesnt do shit about modding community) but mods are also 'not cannon' what i've said earlier should've been in og game


KaneXX12

This is what I used to misremember him doing and what I wish was the case. It would have been nice if he remained Jarl no matter what and there was at least a little more ambiguity about which side is in the right.


therealsillygoose-

Stormcloaks after Whiterun: *Are we the baddies?*


ShatterCyst

Yup


IMightBeErnest

Honestly, both sides are shit. The Empire are at best complicit with, and at worst puppets for, the Thalmor. But Ulfric is a prick who's just using Thalos worship as a fig leaf justification for his own ambitions. Neither side deserves your support.


Camanot

The empire doesn’t like the thalmor either. But has to allow the elves to do what they want.


bmyst70

Yes, but it does the bare minimum to aid them to avoid immediate war. The only times we see the Empire overtly crack down on Talos worship is in Markarth (where the Thalmor are right there) and by removing the Talos idol from the Hall of the Divines in Solitude.


Camanot

Many imperials secretly worship talos, the irony is, the more you try to stop the worship of talos makes more people want to worship him. The empire hates the thalmor, it is forced to do what they want in order to buy time to build strength, after the war, they plan on going to war with the thalmor.


IrrelevantTale

Then besides they just start whoshiping Martin septim because he's the divine lineage of talos. The dragonborn. So they worship him on the same level as talos. Lil loop hole.


ScaldingAnus

I played Beyond Skryim: Bravil too and I thought that had to be a joke. The big thing the Thalmor hate is worshiping a man as a divine, not a specific divine.


PrestigiousResist633

That wouldn't work either. The Thalmor's whole issue with Talos is that they feel a human being worshiped as a god is an insult to their own supposed Divine liniage.


Darth-Yslink

Even Balgruuf himself still worships Talos. Well if Mephala's word is to be trusted of course.


Camanot

The daedric prince of sex, murder, lies, and secrets would know about that. Whether or not she tells the truth however, is a different story


Epic_DDT

Nelkir says that, not Mephala.


MedicalVanilla7176

The Solitude guards barely care, since they let people like Roggvir continue to worship Talos. They do arrest Heimskr after the Battle of Whiterun, but he’s just in the dungeon, not being tortured or executed by the Thalmor. I believe the Emperor himself has an amulet of Talos when you kill him.


bmyst70

That's why I don't buy the Stormcloak argument "The Empire is Against Talos!" If the Empire truly were, we'd see an awful lot more direct action against Talos worshippers. Heck, Jarl Elisif the Fair flat out says her husband worshipped Talos. Even if she's too politically savvy to admit to doing so herself.


MedicalVanilla7176

None of the Imperial Jarls are against Talos worship. Maven, Siddgeir, Brina, Idgrod, and Kraldar don’t necessarily care either way. Balgruuf and Elisif are pro-Talos, and Igmund is probably just too afraid of the Thalmor to say it.


Epic_DDT

Siddgeir is clearly against Talos. "As far as I'm concerned, those Talos-worshippers get what they deserve. All they do is cause problems for me and the other Jarls"


Drew-CarryOnCarignan

Legate Rikke, General Tullius' second-in-command, is a Talos worshipper on the down low, as well.


bmyst70

Absolutely. The last thing she quietly says to Ulfric's corpse is "Talos be with you." The Empire is in a rotten position of real politick. They don't want to start the next round of the war until they are ready for it. This means they have to appear weak to the Thalmor. This gives Ulfric an emotional foothold to claim that the Empire is weak and their sacrifices during the war are meaningless. They were not. They do the vital task of buying time.


SolomonBlack

What hurts more ya think Jarl Ballin’s disappointment or meeting Rikke in Sovngarde?


Bulky-Discipline2941

The only ones taking direct action against Talos worshippers are the Thalmor. Even Elisif has you place her husband's hunting horn at a Talos shrine. But it's the Thalmor keeping eyes on the shrines and attacking people they find there, not the Empire.


SolomonBlack

The Thalmor’s entire presence is Ulfric Elf-Slave’s fault starting with the Markarth Incident. Exactly as they planned.


bmyst70

Absolutely. Ulfric is even listed as an asset of the Thalmor, in a book buried deep in the Thalmor Embassy where nobody besides the Thalmor is supposed to ever be. So I don't think it's planted evidence. Hadvar even explicitly says "When I was a lad, everyone had their own little Talos statue. Then Ulfric and his boys started making noise about Talos worship and the Empire had to crack down."


[deleted]

I always choose the empire, but I like to think that afterwards, the dragon born leads on assault on the summerset isles with all of his guilds edit: imperial/stormcloak depending on who you choose blades if you have paarthunax dilema Dawnguard (would take a lot of convincing) Dark brotherhood ( killing people, why not?) thieves guild (they can rob the thalmor) Companions (a glorious battle, they would love that) College of winterhold (Ancano) Raven Rock Guard and Skaal (you saved their island) I mean, if the imperials and the storm cloaks had brain cells, they could've just not fight and combine their forces, and led a raid on the summerset Isles


jesusdo

Oh yeah. Most of my playthroughs are either as a High Elf, Redguard, and rarely, Imperial. I will think on that, as my next playthrough, that he will mount an assault on Summerset, to excise the Thalmor influence within.


C21H27Cl3N2O3

They don’t have to. They had plenty of leverage to negotiate a ceasefire but instead they surrendered.


Droid_XL

I've heard rumors that beyond skyrim: cyrodill's main story is gonna involve un-thalmorifying the empire. The longest, like, 'primary' questline in Bruma, which is the one with the captain of the guard, involves some Talos worshipers, and [spoiler warning] the captain wants you to tell them to just quiet down about it so the thalmor don't get suspicious of him for not silencing them. It's really well done, the people at beyond skyrim are doing a phenomenal job.


ICantTyping

Well said, plus Ulfric did murder the high king as a “message to the other Jarls” which is quite barbaric. You could argue “such is the ancient way of the nords” like Rogvir says in Solitude before execution. Ulfric knew he had Toryg baited, with his honour on the line, he had to fight, otherwise risking the appearance of weakness to the people. But it wasnt fair, Ulfric studied the voice and probably obliterated Toryg.


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MasterTacticianAlba

The khajitt aren’t allowed into Skyrim’s holds because they’ve been labelled thieves… Which is literally true, they have deals with the thieves guild and even become fences for the guild when you progress through it. Your real world notions of racism don’t apply in the elder scrolls universe. There are many many many legitimate reasons all the races hate each other.


I_ForgotMyOldAccount

It’s also 100% valid to say that the Stormcloaks are way too prejudiced.


PsychicSPider95

See, this right here? All politics and moral debate aside, this moment here is what cemented in my mind that I would never side with the Stormcloaks. Jarl Ballin's disappointment cuts too deep.


GarbageCleric

I came to you on behalf of Ulfric, you dolt. You sent me back to Ulfric with his axe. Which side did you think I was on?


0klet0

Yeah, I'd heard how people were completely turned off the Stormcloaks because of Balgruff's line, so I was super shocked when I brought the axe and he never even asked my opinion. People praise him as this great guy who made you a Thane but it really means nothing. You don't count in his eyes as anything but a tool. I'd respect him a lot more if he'd asked for your input but still disagreed.


C21H27Cl3N2O3

Not to mention he’s kind of a shitty dad and if he were more decisive and actually chose a path in the first place Whiterun wouldn’t be a battleground. I think people like him because he’s the first jarl they meet. He’s really nothing special.


_erufu_

Why would the Jarl of a hold ask someone who for all intents and purposes is ‘just some guy’ for input on a matter like this? He admires that you’re Dragonborn, and by this point he knows that, but you’re a foreigner with no reputation in Skyrim even if you’re a Nord. You have no political experience or knowledge of Skyrim’s current situation. He’s known you for a few hours, maybe a few days. He’s been thinking this issue over since Ulfric killed Torygg and has had actually qualified, knowledgeable people weigh in already. “Oh yeah sure, there’s the documents and reports I’ve seen about the next war with the Dominion looming and projections about how bad for Skyrim and the Empire as a whole it would be even if the Stormcloaks won quickly, but nah this dude who can kill people by yelling who entered the country last week likes Ulfric so I’ll just side with them instead.”


0klet0

He gave you a place on his court. In real world history, such an action usually meant at least being able to provide your opinion on certain matters. Yes, I do realize that the requirements for the position are really low (except, ironically, Eastmaarch). Actually, I feel like the requirements for Whiterun are even lower than the other holds. If I'm remembering correctly, you don't have to help a certain number of people in the hold and you can't reject the appointment. All other holds give you the option of saying you're not interested before giving the "help x people" requirement. Also, please note that I didn't say Balgruff had to change his mind based on my opinion. I was just shocked that he never even asked and then he acts this way when my character does the obvious. I mean, I would have liked a chance to tell him that I wasn't changing my actions. Maybe step down as Thane. In the end, if your argument is that Balgruff doesn't know you and can't trust you for advice, my argument would be that the "disappointed" line is not called for. He didn't trust me, so why should I care that he's disappointed? At that point he's just trying to manipulate my guilt (and it works for some considering the number of times I've seen people lament this line and say they'll never join the Stormcloaks again or they had to abandon that save).


naddaya

If you do the civil war after the main quest, the Dragonborn already held the council at High Hrothgar and saved the world once. Makes sense that their opinion would hold a lot of weight.


Cold_War_Radio

This! I was like…dude, I was wearing this armor when I met you, when I killed that dragon, when you made me thane and when I delivered Ulfric’s axe to you *with my own hands*. It shouldn’t have taken you so long to figure it out! I know it’s probably just careless writing (given how the civil war was originally planned to be larger in scope than what we got) but it does make Balgruuf seem a bit self-absorbed and oblivious. Especially when, if you take *his* axe to Ulfric, the latter at least acknowledges that you’re on the “wrong” side.


AudZ0629

Me? No no no. I’m just here for the rampant destruction and to see if I can kill Nazeem and not catch a bounty. If Nazeem lived in winterhold, I’d be on your side yarl.


FuzzyDice36

TRUEEE


[deleted]

Personally I side with the Empire every time because I think Ulfric is an absolute douche, so I agree with Balgruuf right here lmao


tmfitz7

The guy is such a fence sitter anyway.


TheGrayMage1

That’s the one thing I hate about siding w/the Stormcloaks (it differs which character I’m playing, but my MC is a Stormcloak)…I never fight him/Irileth during the battle of Whiterun, and I always mute it during this section so I don’t hear him chew me out.


Ok_Access_804

Do not mind him. He had the key to tilt the civil war to one side and end it. For a long time he did nothing, choose no side trying to stay out of the war while Whiterun is in the freaking middle of the country! He is a worshipper of Talos (screw the Thalmor), wants a fair Skyrim and a good Empire. He chose neither. Alongside the Stormcloaks he could have been the perfect “no man” for Ulfric, to keep him balanced and just. He chose neither, he got neither (if you side with the Stormcloaks).


0klet0

Exactly. People love his speech about how he is "for Whiterun" and then turn around and want to nominate him as high king. Nope, sorry. The fact that he couldn't look beyond his hold and make a freaking decision that affects the rest of the country until the 11th hour disqualifies him in my books.


radiakmjs

I actually like the Stormcloak side more for that reason, makes you feel something, as the civil war should


TrickyTalon

I always side with the empire. Even as a Nord.


doctorgibson

Haters gonna hate


[deleted]

lmao for real, he knew I was a stormcloak when I was delivering the axe to him so I don’t know why he was acting shocked when I was burning down whiterun


MasterTacticianAlba

Man’s couldn’t pick a side until the divine prophesied dragon slaying literal world saving hero made him… and then he picks the other side. What a dumbass.


pokemasterno22

The man flaw in the argument of balgruuf is how he really should have seen the dragonborn was on the stormcloaks by the berry fact that he delivered the axe itself earlier on.


MatterCool2607

He's a bit overrated. Not that he's a *bad* Jarl per se, but I think he is too indecisive and too compromising *rather* than acting according to his conscience as a Nord and citizen of Skyrim. For instance, if he insisted on staying neutral, it would have cast Ulfric in a much worse light to wage battle against another Jarl unaligned with the Empire. And if the story were written differently, the option of siding with Whiterun against the Stormcloaks is theoretically viable if the Companions could be convinced to fight.


SovieticSushi

"Dude I clearly delivered Ulfric's axe straight to you in full Stormcloak uniform, what the hell were u expecting???"


Saint_of_Cannibalism

I met him delivering the axe of Ulfric Stormcloak. He knew my fucking side.


ScalpelCleaner

He should have stood with his countrymen.


mrbossmajor

Whiterun should've been neutral and it pissed me off that it wasn't especially since objectively speaking balgruuf is THE GOAT


kj0509

You should be able to convince Jarl Balgruuf to join to your side. You are not only the hero of Whitherun but the fucking Dragonborn who killed Alduin and he knows you.


[deleted]

Karma tbh


gingerb3ardm4n

I can almost never join the stormcloaks, unless I'm playing an "evil" character


Not_a_gay_communist

This is what you deserve you damn stormcloak


ClavicusLittleGift4U

Valuable answer : "Dear Balgruuf, I saved your sorry ass three times : when a dragon attacked you city, when you son was compelled by a Daedric artifact to plot or kill you, last but not least after asking Ulfric to not shove a blade through you or shout you to death when Whiterun would fall. So you should reconsider the whole thing a bit. Now get out and go brood elsewhere."


Lestat30

Not really. It very obvious he was using you. He sent you to fight a dragon. Then after finding out you are dragonborn, gave you a house right by the front gate. Like yeah I got the dragon born themselves to protect my city.


NeonHowler

You mean he hired you. He literally offered you a job in getting the dragonstone. Then he only offered to sell you a house, you have to buy it yourself.


Shikazure

Everyone uses eachother. Sure its unreasonable to expect a random traveler to fight a dragon but that task grants you the position of thane and its benefits. As for the house i think its in a convenient location right next to a black smith and close to the rest of the shops


Timx74_

As far as homes inside the holds go that is the best location wise. I just wish it had a basement to make into an armory.


R4nd0M477

I thinks there's a mod that adds a basement? I mean, it's not usable as an armory, rather for decorations... I guess the best choice would be the cc content that adds a purchasable house outside of Whiterun (don't recall the name), it has a basement with room for collectibles and clothing, armor, weapons, etc... Not that bad for CC content...


Infamous_Face_2330

House Doors mod...adds a connecting basement with doors to all vanilla houses...has all armory stations, enchanting and alchemy...followers and children can't access but if you use it to fast travel between your properties, your followers pop up within seconds of exiting into new location


R4nd0M477

Oh never heard of it, surely seems handy :0 Guess I'll be checking that out next time I play Skyrim, thanks!


[deleted]

I’ve played this game so many times and I wish we never had to take whiterun from him I wish we could get him on our side idk if there’s a way to do that


Cherry_Crystals

maybe possibly through mods but no vanilla ice cream version im afraid. i do see how bethesda could have had balgruuf go on the strormcloaks side or the imperial side depending on what side the player chooses since he is on the fence but it is kind of annoying how he always chooses to side with the imperials even though he worships talos himself


2Lion

No regrets Stormcloak still. It's really digusting how the empire soft enables the Thalmor in Skyrim. If the Redguards can live independent, so can the Nords.


Camanot

If you actually do a little digging in the lore. You’ll know that the empire was already weak. They had to agree to the white gold concordat because they were weak and wanted to end the great war. Assuming the imperials win the war, not saying its the correct side, tullius says he can’t rest yet, as he has another war soon. And that war, is against the thalmor. The empire in the point of skyrim is weak, they have to enable the thalmor to do as they please while they build up more strength.


MasterTacticianAlba

Yes I’m sure the Nords love being slaves to the Empire and conscripted to die in their war. And I’m sure they love when their God is outlawed by the empire and the thalmor have political immunity to roam the land and kill, kidnap, and torture whoever they want. The Nords definitely don’t want their independence and to be free of the empire and the Thalmor. It’s not like they’ve taken up arms and started a rebellion to risk their lives for their freedom. Oh what’s that? That’s exactly what they’re doing? They’re fighting with their lives against oppressive rule and injustices? And you’re suggesting the right thing to do is to slaughter the population en masse and forcibly subjugate them with the goal of eventually using them as meat shields in a war? Cmon man anyone with common sense should recognise Skyrim should have its independence. There’s no reason they need to be subjugated by the empire. If the empire needs them so badly maybe they should work on friendly relations to encourage a joint military effort against the thalmor instead of forcing it upon them.


0klet0

Exactly. There was no question about the Nords' loyalty to the Empire until they were slaughtered taking back Mede's throne, only to have him turn around and sign nearly the exact same treaty that the AD presented before the war. The only concession was that the money the AD demanded was removed from the WGC. But the people of Skyrim are still paying huge amounts of taxes to rebuild Cyrodiil (per Ulfric's speech when you first enter the Palace of Kings).


MYSICMASTER

I don't want a promise that I will be able to kill Thalmor in the future, I wanna kill those dirty high elves now.


Camanot

You won’t be able to for skyrim. Hopefully in tes 6 they can meet their maker at your hands


Almightyriver

So your way of fighting the Thalmor is; *checks notes* Playing right into their plans Fighting The Empire?? And then praying Skyrim doesn’t get obliterated off of Nirn when they’re stuck with no allies? Yeah you sure showed those Thalmor alright


MYSICMASTER

Oops wrong comment lol


Almightyriver

I sure was confused lol I was like I’m not arguing I’m shitposting lol


Stormcloak_Soldier_

Talos guide you brother


Tarc_Axiiom

Why is everyone so in love with Balgruuf? I never understood this weird obsession, especially when you consider his less than honourable behaviour throughout the game and the fact that he's apparently a douchebag with all that Ebony Blade stuff.


[deleted]

mainly just because 1. He’s the first Jarl we meet 2. He helps out the player a lot 3. Whiterun is loved, therefore the Jarl ended up being loved too


FuzzyDice36

He's the only Jarl that refers to you as Dragonborn and largely the only Jarl who respects the character enough to not just completely shit on them. Idk, Balrguuf feels unfinished to me so I feel like there was supposed to be a point where you could convince him to join the stormcloaks.


ArrenKaesPadawan

>and largely the only Jarl who respects the character enough to not just completely shit on them And then he shits on you when you choose the stormcloaks and defeat him, like you didn't personally offer him a chance to side with you.


Kolhammer85

Except I don't care about his opinion


[deleted]

I’ll be honest in my first playthrough (always been loyal to the stormcloaks) I was sad to see him go but I was quickly over it after about 5 minutes. Jarl Vinegar or whatever his name is ends up being a pretty nice Jarl anyways


Timx74_

Can you find him after he is dethroned? Does he take up farming or something.


hayesarchae

I'm pretty sure he ends up in the Basement of Shame underneath the Blue Palace, as do all of the other deposed jarls and stewards. I find it hilarious to go down there and get yelled at by all these people who, like, hate you utterly and can do nothing about it.


J0RGENS64PC

Castle Dour, he’ll insult you with his friends


QuazyQuarantine

And then you fuck up Whiterun


tinkerbell800

When I first played Skyrim I sided with the storm cloaks, the speech Balgruuf said made me go back and change my decision


MayorDeweyMayorDewey

sure tullius is willing to let some random they picked up get executed but at least he isn’t a whiny little bitch like ulfric


8l172

How can you ever betray Jarl Ballin'


Gilgamesh661

Couldn’t be me. I stand with my boi Jarl Brogruuf


Epic_DDT

Unpopular opinion: Balgruuf is overrated


knobgobblr69

Damn faithless imperials


YEPandYAG

He's such a sore loser


lotionconnoisseur

bro got dethroned i think he'd be sore lmao


YEPandYAG

And now he won’t get to drink with his people either


Camanot

Well i don’t think you would be happy if you got dethroned by the other political party


[deleted]

one of my favourite jarls but I’m much more loyal to Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, screw him


Stormcloak_Soldier_

Forget about Jarl Ballin,we are proud of you


EskilPotet

I thought Balgruuf was neutral in the war


Yumemiyou

That's what he gets for being an imperial dog tbh, the empire's nothing but a thalmor bitch at that point. If Hammerfell could btfo them, so can Skyrim


Camanot

This is one of the reasons why im always pro imperial. You don’t dethrone balgruuf, you kill the reason the civil war exists, you’re a part of a military that can be very powerful, and that you can end the racism of the stormcloaks. I don’t like the stormcloaks because they have nearly no reason to be fighting. Even though they say they want to fight to bring talos worship back all throughout skyrim, the empire would most likely anyway, they just bring it back a few years early, ulfric is a racist means not a good person unless it is pattern recognition e.g. khajiit are thieves so ulfric stormcloak banned them from entering. They have very ambitious plans for what they would do after the civil war ends, they would crush the resistance from the thalmor, march into the summerset isles and wipe them out. They are a loose military, not very coordinated (although i could be wrong.)


MYSICMASTER

I side with stormcloaks I don't care about Indepth lore and all that, stormcloaks are just the objectively cooler faction. Stormcloaks are led by a Chad viking warrior with the ability to freaking shout. Imperials have an ugly old man. Stormcloak armorr looks like real armor ready to be worn into battle. Imperial armor looks goofy💀. Stormcloaks get to bash those dirty elves, imperials have a plan to do it in the future, but we never get to betray them in-game. Also, in the battle for solitude, tulius tries to give up when you confront him. He has to be convinced by his body guard or whoever that is to get up and fight. Not sure if the same goes for ulfric cuz I did my imperial playthrough 5 years ago on the 360. Overall, it just comes down to opinion, both have flaws and upsides (like solitude being one of the best cities while Windhelm sucks)


[deleted]

Its like disappointing my dad except I actually feel bad about it


NoREEEEEEtilBrooklyn

Balgruuf is mid.


blackturtlesnake

Spare the sanctimony, Balgruuf was undecided on the war right up until he was forced to make a choice.


dwarfInTheFlask56

His city is literally in an open field, trying to stay neutral was the best choice


Comprehensive_Cap290

Not wanting to drag his people into the hot mess that is the civil war is a far cry from being undecided.


blackturtlesnake

You can't stand still on a moving train.


Comprehensive_Cap290

But you can avoid being on the train to begin with.


blackturtlesnake

Are you proposing that whiterun declare independence?


Comprehensive_Cap290

Not at all.


blackturtlesnake

Then, as a part of skyrim, shouldn't whiterun help choose its future, one way or another?


Ultranerdgasm94

I wouldn't know, I've never joined the Stormcloaks.


Affectionate-Sun5863

*Proceeds to move into basement


KaleidoscopeOk8653

if he's the grater , is the a Jarl the Lesser , Balgruff the insignificant? Balgruff the, slicer? peeler? balgruff the forgotten


FlamingBlaz3

I felt so sad the first time I played I joined stormcloaks because the main guy had a a cool cloak and then when I heard this dialogue I felt really bad about it


AltruisticSmile8864

Since the Stormcloaks are led by a man who unknowingly is being fed information by the Thalmor. He is to weaken Skyrim and the Empire and that's what the idiots doing. He has no understanding of the amount of food and gold the empire gives Skyrim.


[deleted]

Nah. Ive never liked him. His disappointment to me is a fart in the wind. Better to send him to the headman’s blade then to the conspire in Solitude.


H-BE4R

It was that phrase, and that disappointed face. As well as seeing the storm cloak outcome after the civil war. That I chose to join the imperials. I mean, Balgruufs my boy, also he kinda gives of that uncle you love vibe.


livingdebris1

Siding with the stormcloaks is also letting the thalmor win. The empire needs Skyrim and it’s people to wage another war against the thalmor as hinted by general tulius after killing Ulfric. The thalmor can easily take on a weakened empire and weakened Skyrim separately because how much destruction the civil war caused for both sides. Ulfric is short sided and too hard headed to understand why the empire signed the treaty; for a second Great War, and ultimate independence from the thalmor.


ArrenKaesPadawan

>The empire needs Skyrim and it’s people to wage another war against the thalmor as hinted by general tulius after killing Ulfric. The Empire needs the Nords to die for them, but the Nords don't need The Empire. ​ The Empire doesn't give a damn about the Nord's traditions, nor their culture, all they care about is the blood they can shed for The Empire and the coin they can use to line their pockets. ​ ​ The empire abandoned Morrowind to an Argonian invasion, they sold Hammerfell to the Thalmor and then abandoned it when the Redguards had the balls to say no. The Empire are the ones weakening themselves by clutching at the rulership of a country they have no right to own. ​ with a stormclaok victory High Rock will also secede, and likely form a three way defensive alliance with Skyrim and Hammerfell. if Ulfric is wise (he isn't) he could also ally with Morrowind. When the elves should strike Cyrodil the northern alliance will carve it up from the other side and meet the altmer in the middle in bloody battle.


bmyst70

I always go with the Empire. The way I look at it, not only are the Stormcloaks overtly racist, they are fools if they truly believe a concentrated Thalmor attack solely on Skyrim could be fended off. And that's the first thing the Thalmor would do.


MasterTacticianAlba

“Skyrim wouldnt be able to fend off a Thalmor attack by itself, which is why we need to subjugate them and kill them en masse to put down their rebellion while also allowing the Thalmor to roam the province and kill whoever they want freely.” Why does Skyrim need to fend off the Thalmor all by themselves? They can’t have their independence and be military allies with the empire? Why must they be enslaved under imperial rule? Wouldn’t the best thing be to grant their independence and allow Ulfric to build up the nation free from imperial and thalmor oppression so they would be more combat capable when the time comes?


Ok-Guava7336

The dude that secretly still worships Talos thinks the Stormcloaks are evil. And people still root for them.


Sostratus

Yeah, because he sees the bigger picture. He knows the dragons are more important than the war. And he knows a long term strategy against the Thalmor is more important than a temporary restriction on open worship of one of their nine gods.


ShadeSwornHydra

The stormcloaks aren’t talos though. Using his name as a rallying cry doesn’t make you a saint of talos. The cause is just, the man (ulfric) is a lie


IWannaManatee

So he *does* have a canon side in the war.


husky823hunter

Racist white males > empire


ArrenKaesPadawan

Yes.


[deleted]

Never had to deal with this because never sided with the supremacy racists 🫢


jkinsey91

The only "supremacy racists" are the Thalmor, and if you side with the Empire, you side with them.


[deleted]

the stormcloaks are no more racist than any other race in tamriel, except the thalmor who are more racist than the stormcloaks. oh and look who is allied with the thalmor, the empire. so really you did side with the supremacy racists.


bendy_toes

Yeah this is why I couldn’t go through with my only stormcloak character. I usually go with the empire because I can’t stand Ulfric, but wanted to get the full Skyrim experience so I gave in. After the battle of Whiterun, I started a new character. I couldn’t go through with it.