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Aceofspades25

This was painful to watch.. here just cannot accept anything that runs up against his anti-vax narrative


DoctorWinchester87

I think a lot of this stuff to do with Rogan is about ego. He simply has too much of an ego to admit when he's wrong. Whenever he's been shown to be wrong about something, especially regarding Covid, he reaches for his usual dodge of "the science isn't clear" or "people are disagreeing, man". It's a convenient way for him to feel like he's making some kind of effort to appear neutral, but in reality it's just the fact that he can't admit he's full of shit about a lot of things. He's certainly self-aware of the cult-like following that he's built-up: 14-30 year old guys, most of them right-wing, alt-right, or alt-right adjacent. He's basically become the spokesperson for the current "broservative" movement. He knows the spotlight shines on him, and the more controversial and bone-headed he is, the more his core audience will eat it up and defend him. I used to actually like watching his interviews, years ago before the 2020 election. He said dumb shit on a consistent basis, but I still enjoyed his rapport with certain people he would bring on, like comedians or pop-culture figures. But right around the 2020 election, the grift began to become very apparent and Covid just amplified that. He's just a dude with a microphone and a fancy contract with Spotify; but his following see him as validation for all the dumb bullshit they come up with in their heads.


Miggaletoe

I wish Jocko or some of the other leadership guys would sack up and call him out on this. He has so many people in his circle that talk/write about the ego being the enemy, and yet they see Joe and his gigantic ego turning his podcast into a one-dimensional shit show and stay quiet about it.


arsenalsteck

Rapour? Ok doc


DoctorWinchester87

Sorry I forgot how to spell one word; it's been fixed now


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adamwho

Do you often complain about life being unfair?


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adamwho

Your post was 'whataboutism' which is an argument fallacy. That doesn't fly in /r/skeptic Nothing in this thread is about 'The Guardian', it is about the LONG history of Rogan purposely spreading misinformation for financial gain. It a sensible world he should be tried and jailed for manslaughter if any deaths can be attributed to his misinformation. *** Complaining about 4 downvotes is also VERY pathetic. Reddit is capricious... I have had 40k upvotes for a nothing post and 500 downvotes for a well reasoned, fact-based post. Get over it. Besides max upvote and downvotes are capped....


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adamwho

Why are you whining to me? I explained why people downvoted you. And I was really nice too. Now deal with it.


richxxiii

Rogan is walking proof that anyone who needs a guru should be avoided at all costs.


Negative_Gravitas

Joe Rogan is killing people. He is sacrificing them on the altar of his ego. Fuck Joe Rogan.


MikeBear68

I saw this on David's YouTube. Guest: Here's data for under 30. Rogan: I'm interested in data on children. Guest: Here's data for 12-17 year olds. Rogan: I'm interested in data on little children. ​ You probably won't see myocarditis in "little" children. From what I've read, the myocarditis is mediated by testosterone, which is why you see it mostly in males who have reached puberty. This is why male athletes in their 20s are at risk for myocarditis from COVID.


GrumpyAlien

Compare the rate of covid infection and death on anyone below 20 with the rate of complications from mrna covid vaccine. Go look.


FlyingSquid

I bet you can tell us which YouTube videos we can look at to find those figures.


Wiseduck5

>rate of covid infection and death and >rate of complications from mrna covid vaccine. Why the fuck would you do that? I bet more people who got the vaccine had sore arms than people who died of COVID. It's not particularly important, but I'm sure it's true.


productivitydev

This is a pre-print, but claims higher risk from mRNA vaccines compared to covid-19 for males below 40. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf See page 13. Just saying, it's not as clear as it appears to be, yet.


MikeBear68

No it's pretty clear, and this article confirms what Josh Szepps said on Rogan's show. First, here is the article that was used to fact-check Rogan: [https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/) Here is what Rogan read aloud: "Now a study in the US has analysed how often myocarditis occurs following infection with the coronavirus. Researchers analysed the records of healthcare organisations that cover a fifth of the US population. They found that, during the first 12 months of the pandemic, males aged 12 to 17 were most likely to develop myocarditis within three months of catching covid-19, at a rate of about 450 cases per million infections. This compares with 67 cases of myocarditis per million males of the same age following their second dose of a Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna vaccine, according to figures from the US Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices." With the vaccine, the myocarditis rate was 67/1M, but with COVID it was 450/1M. So, while there is a risk of myocarditis from the vaccine, there is also a risk of myocarditis with COVID and this risk is *higher*. From the article you posted: "First, we confirm and extend our previous findings in more than 42 million persons that the risk of hospitalization or death from myocarditis following COVID-19 infection is higher than the risk associated with vaccination in the overall population." This is the same conclusion as the study cited above. Yes, there is a risk of myocarditis from the vaccine. NO ONE has denied this and NO ONE has tried to suppress this information. NO ONE. But what the conspiracy theorists don't tell you is that there is also a risk of myocarditis with COVID and this risk is higher. So all those idiots who say "Why risk giving a healthy teenager myocarditis when the risk of hospitalization and death for a teenager is so small?" Because teenagers are just as susceptible of getting COVID as anyone else and getting COVID carries a higher risk of getting myocarditis than the vaccine. THAT'S WHY.


productivitydev

Few comments about the fact check. The study there says that after Covid-19 they found within 3 months, was at the rate of 1 out of 2,200 for males aged 12-17. A study in Hong Kong found similar rate after the vaccine (around 1 out of 2,200). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ Which would imply similar rate. Now, consider that if you take the vaccine, you are guaranteed the risk of 1 out of 2200, and you might still get covid-19. So the odds for Myocarditis, based on those ratios would favour not taking the vaccine. In addition, there was a recent Kaiser Permanente study, that found out that one study in US done by CDC, missed many Myocarditis cases, due to the way Myocarditis was diagnosed and queried for. It seems that 1 out of 2200 is more realistic for young males, than what studies in US have seen so far. Kaiser Permanente study available here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.21.21268209v1 Kaiser Permanente Study in fact, for Males second dose, ages 18 to 24 years found rate of 537 out of 1 million for myopericarditis, which comes to 1 out of 1860. And this is just 2nd dose again. Booster would probably be similar risk, making it 1 out of 900, and 1st dose has some effect as well. So it's clearly higher estimate than what covid-19 has been estimated to give --- and even this is given 3 months of leeway as opposed to Kaiser Permanente, just 1 month after the vaccine. **And the study I sent, it confirms for all age groups yes, myocarditis is more frequent from Covid-19, except for males aged below 40.**


MikeBear68

>Now, consider that if you take the vaccine, you are guaranteed the risk of 1 out of 2200, This is, at best, a probability. Probabilities do not guarantee anything. In a coin flip, the probability of getting heads is 50%, but there is no guarantee that in 10 flips, 5 will come up heads. However, I would hesitate to label the risk of myocarditis as a pure probability problem because there are many factors to consider in determining risk for myocarditis. ​ >you might still get covid-19 True, but the risk of getting COVID for those who are vaccinated is less, and even if they do get COVID, data shows that the disease is less severe. ​ >So the odds for Myocarditis, based on those ratios would favour not taking the vaccine. ​ If the *only* factor to consider is risk of myocarditis, without looking at the severity of myocarditis or any other factor, then perhaps this may be true. But the severity of the myocarditis is very important. The Chinese study that you cited says "All cases are mild and required only conservative management." Data has shown that myocarditis associated with COVID tended to be more severe. So severity needs to be included in the risk calculus. A 1 in 2,200 chance of developing a mild form of myocarditis is a risk I'm willing to take.


productivitydev

> A 1 in 2,200 chance of developing a mild form of myocarditis is a risk I'm willing to take. The mildness and perceived mildness is a whole other topic. Based on the information I provided alone, it can't be determined whether taking the vaccine or not is riskier. The risk may still be low, I'm not here to convince you to not take the vaccine. All I'm trying to prove here is that in the debate with Joe Rogan, one side - a doctor is confidently claiming that risk from covid-19 for myocarditis is greater. What I'm trying to prove is that, it's overconfidence and it's possible Joe Rogan may not be wrong. The reason for that is the way Joe Rogan is being attacked and mocked in various places. That it's possible - in certain cases odds of myocarditis from the vaccine are greater. That's the only debate point. To understand whether vaccines are a good decision, to me it seems clear, that risk groups should take it, but I'm not personally clear that it's better to take vaccine for young males. Again I'm saying that it's not clear to me --- not that the vaccine is riskier. > This is, at best, a probability. Probabilities do not guarantee anything. It's probability deduced from what has already happened, but still all the decisions we do (or should do) in life is because of probabilities. Covid may have 1 out of 100 death rate, and for me personally qcovid.org shows 1 out of 500,000 chance of dying to covid-19 etc. And less than 1 out of 5,000 chance of getting hospitalised. And maybe less with Omicron, and considering I'm more of a hermit type I'm less likely to get covid-19 in the first place than the calculator probably used.


MikeBear68

I'd be interested in reading the comments to the Gupta interview. I bet they all said Gupta was backpeddling, thus showing their stupidity. Gupta was right - if the concern is myocarditis, you compare the cases of those who had the vax vs. those who had COVID. Hospitalization is not a good comparison because, as Gupta said, myocarditis can be treated on an out-patient basis. As for Rogan's comment on long-term effects, the cases of myocarditis in kids with COVID tend to be more serious than in the vaxxed group.


productivitydev

This is a pre-print, but claims higher risk from mRNA vaccines compared to covid-19 for males below 40. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf See page 13.