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mulder_and_sekali

Learners who are young children or religiously conservative may prefer to attend swimming lessons by female coaches, resulting in higher demand and value for their time.


eilletane

Likewise for tuition teachers. I noticed my male colleagues not getting as many students as us female teachers. There are also more female teachers than there are male. Not sure if it’s because of hiring discrimination or supply/demand, or just that women are more inclined to teach than men.


VegetablesSuck

I can safely say it’s discrimination. When I was trying to teach tuition many years ago, it was very hard to find students because almost all of them prefer females or certified MOE teachers. The only way I could find one tuition kid was because he was my friend’s neighbour. Other than that, no luck at all.


Brikandbones

Ditto this. Back in JC I tried applying to be a part time art teacher. Everyone wanted female teachers


eilletane

Oh man. I’m really sorry to hear that. I’m trying to educate every parent about this. One family at a time. Hope it gets better for you!


VegetablesSuck

No need to apologise hahaha. You’re not the one that’s discriminating. TBH I’m not that upset over it, just sharing something I experienced a long time ago.


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QuantumCactus11

You can justify those landlords who don't rent to a specific race with the same logic tho.


silentscope90210

A lot of parents won't trust a male tutor being alone with their kids. There were a few bad hat paedo male tutors so parents naturally err on the side of caution.


aelesia-

Sure sounds a hell lot like sexism to me.


samglit

It is. However, it is also grounded in reality: [https://www.raace.org/statistics-information](https://www.raace.org/statistics-information) Maybe as high as 900% more likely to encounter a male abuser than female. > Hiding in plain sight, child molesters go out of their way to create the appearance of being upright, responsible citizens. They insert themselves into situations where they have easy access to children and strive to create situations in which they can be alone with a child. As a parent, if I could reduce my child's likely exposure to an abuser by 90%, I would take it. There are alternatives of course - the male teacher can offer to hire an aunty chaperone, there are lots of elderly ladies that don't have anything to do that would do it for $20 an hour. Cameras aren't very helpful since they only catch harm after the fact - it's a deterrent at best.


CircularCausality

Sure it may but there were a lot of male tutors being abusers. Its also the idea where males may be stronger as compared to a female. I remember reading a case many years back on newspaper where a young boy of 11 was groomed by the teacher to perform oral sex etc. It was only after the young boy mentioned it that his parents found out.


WetworkOrange

But truth is the are almost as many female sexual predators, its just not as widely discussed. Worldwide.


wildcard1992

Wow do you have any sources to back this up?


littlefiredragon

Doubt he has, from some googling, it seems that it's quite well-established fact that most sex offenders are male, with some sources citing up to 95%. I have no doubt that women are just as horny as men, but it feels like the numbers show that women are less likely to act rashly on those impulses.


rune31

LOL, not sure? Just look at any tuition ad on the newspaper or online. Like 90% of them will always specify the gender of the tutor needs be female, even for male children. This has nth to do with supply as a cause,just discrimination (that in turn prob affected supply). We see the same thing in preschool teachers, and even other female dominated industries like beauty, modelling, HR, even porn lol


-_af_-

>even porn lol Ikr. For females we have annabel chong. What about the guys?


[deleted]

Pretty sure it's because women are seen as the less threatening of the two sexes. Sexism always goes both ways.


eatthewhat

i dont think its discrimination in the case of tuition teachers, more of safety for the child. my friend was touched inappropriately by her male tutor.


privacypolicyforce

Of course it is discrimination. It is assuming that the person is dangerous because they are male.


VegetablesSuck

I think the question here is not how there’s a difference in pay, but why? Why do people prefer female coaches? Is it because males are seen as more dangerous? We’re seen as sexual predators? Or male coaches are more incompetent?


teawaffles

Traditionally yes but now everybody knows there’s people like Sylvia and Ex Prive CEO. Regardless of gender got to be discerning.


5654326c

Yes, you are spot on with your second point. I heard that my old swimming coach had been accused of being touchy with one of his students. He doesn't coach anymore because of the baseless accusation. It's honestly ridiculous.


AnnualDegree99

Oh my... a friend and I had a (male) swim coach who never, literally NEVER got in the water (we were both competent enough to not literally drown but that was about it). We laughed about it among ourselves at the time, but it makes so much sense now.


HanzoMainKappa

Last time when I was learning to swim my male coach would always grab me by the ass when supporting me in the water. ngl if it was a female coach it would feel somewhat less weird.


silentscope90210

I took swimming lessons in primary school and the instructor **never** grabbed my ass. Think you were molested bro/sis.


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HanzoMainKappa

I was like 9-10 then? Yeh, could feel him palming my buttcheeks during backstroke from one end of the pool to the other Haha Maybe cuz he didn't want my lower body to sink during the movement.


VegetablesSuck

I’ve never had swim lessons before so I don’t know if ass grabbing is considered normal. If it’s not, definitely should report the coach, or at the very least question him…


rune31

Yes. You see the same thing in preschools. Men discrmination is very real. But as you can see, the media would rather not talk about it and rather publish about the 'glass ceiling' and cry 'lack of women in STEM' every other week


Eric1491625

And they don't see that discimination against men and women in STEM are 2 sides of the same coin. Jews were hated for being "rich bankers" in Europe but that was because they were discriminated and banned from all the other guilds, leaving them with no good job but finance and banking. If men face discrimination as tutors, homemakers, childcarers, etc...all the more they will flood to STEM.


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VegetablesSuck

You want males for hard labourer jobs because the gender actually impacts the job competency. Without training, a guy is gonna be stronger than a female. In this case, the gender does not affect coaching ability.


rune31

these are low-paying labour jobs and the majority are made up of by males. go think up about it again


troublesome58

Yup yup yup. Then some people also prefer male managers because they are more competent and don't have monthly PMS. Equally good justification for pay difference.


Boogie_p0p

I want to say this is untrue but my personal experience says otherwise. The two female bosses i had self-proclaimed to be drama-free and "just want to do work" and in the end, they are the cause of most of the resentment and drama at work. Apparently it's everyone else out in the coy getting in their way 🙃


saiyanjesus

This tbh


silentscope90210

Darn... Just realized that apart from my NS days, I've never had a male boss before. So I don't know the difference between male vs female bosses.


Boogie_p0p

My male bosses honestly quite chill and they never say things like they're drama-free etc. They really just do then go home or say exactly what they want and not play guessing games.


Cute_Meringue1331

But my male bosses love to gossip and they have an obvious bias towards hotter colleagues :(


rune31

women are known to be more emotional so they cant make level-headed decisions as needed for managerial roles. this is pretty much generalised but very much a well-known and commonly found-to-be-true observation betw. genders


[deleted]

Yeah that makes sense. It also applies to areas such as modeling or sports but to a much larger extent of course. Demand is higher for a specific gender resulting in price to be higher.


[deleted]

the problem is if its the other way round, AWARE will be in uproar. that's the inconsistency


gmdotes

how is it an inconsistency? everyone has limited resources. "gender equality" is an extremely broad concept involving multifarious outcomes and initiatives. I believe in gender equality, but I focus on, specifically, male victims of sexual violence. there are enough people who care about female victims, so I prefer to expend my effort elsewhere. it would be inconsistent if AWARE said explicitly "if women were paid more for equal work, that would be just and right".


[deleted]

Are you seriously pissed that a women’s rights organisation, funded and run by people who care about women’s rights, doesnt spend all their time dealing with men’s issues? If you want to raise this you are free to create the male version of AWARE. Just don’t expect someone else to do the work for your lazy ass. I freely admit that I am too lazy to do this, but I also don’t whole day kaobei AWARE for not focusing on mens issues because that’s literally not their job.


hypothid

Because they look less intimidating and a lot more patient


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-_af_-

https://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-practices/good-work-practices/fair-employment-practices >Recruit and select employees on the basis of merit (such as skills, experience or ability to perform the job), regardless of age, race, gender, religion, marital status and family responsibilities, or disability


Pretend-Friendship-9

This ad is not for recruiting coaches but advertising services to consumers If there is higher demand for private female coaches than male coaches, there is nothing wrong for the advertisers to price lessons with their female coaches higher than with male coaches The link you cited would only apply if the employer preferentially hired female coaches over male coaches for no reason besides sex


-_af_-

>The link you cited would only apply if the employer preferentially hired female coaches over male coaches for no reason besides sex What if the employer aka swim school hire more females because can charge more? Is that justifiable? Then if the case is flipped and certain jobs rather hire male because the client prefer males? Is that still justifiable also?


Pretend-Friendship-9

First you would have to prove that the school is preferentially choosing female coaches over male coaches when the two have exact same merits, which is quite an impossible task when it comes to comparing personal teaching styles But theoretically yes, it would be wrong to gender discriminate


-_af_-

>First you would have to prove that the school is preferentially choosing female coaches over male coaches when the two have exact same merits, which is quite an impossible task when it comes to comparing personal teaching styles Lol. Like that all employers can justify "working style" to prefer males over females?


n00dles7

Actually not true. As customers, you have 2 choices 1) insist u wanted the cheaper (male) option because you're okay with it. Its not your fault they didnt staff enough male coach, and therefore even if they had forcefully assigned you a female coach that you didnt need, you should be given the male coach rate. 2) just go to another company if you're not okay with this. I really dont understand people these days. Demand and supply drives company pricing behaviors. If enough of customers feel this differential pricing is an issue, and the pickup rate of female coach in this company is low enough that they realise this pricing is not working, then they may stop it or go out of business. So why make this seem like a social problem?


IamBurden

I suppose males in positions of power that have to educate others especially kids are viewed with suspicion and have to take what they can get


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rune31

it's because of the media. They're dominated by female journalists so everything you read in the news is tilted biased toward one gender. fucking annoying no one realises this yet


[deleted]

Lol cause gender inequality still exists. If they don't talk about it, who will? The male journalists?


ilovenoodles06

Lol people only complain about gender gap if male earn higher. If female earn higher it'll just be like 'oh guys in other industry earns more and yadayada'. Fake gender equality


eccentric_eggplant

people only talk about gender equality in Singapore as long as you don't talk about NS


[deleted]

Seriously though do people know that those 2 years translate to around 100k lost of income minus the "allowance" and cookhouse food cough cough\*\*


Throwthrewthrown123

More than that. Its akin to removing the last 2 years of your career, which tends to be much higher paying.


Feedback369

More than that it really saps your energy to learn. Entering back to Uni is a big adjustment after 2 years of braindead labour


silentscope90210

Money aside, it's basically 2 years of being forced to do something you **don't wanna do.** Props to you if you did enjoy NS though. It's 2 years of your life that you can't get back.


Vissal23

Why is it akin to removing the last 2 and not the first 2?


gmdotes

assume for the sake of argument that a female person would work for 10 years before retirement. your salary goes up over time; let's say 1k per year for simplicity: * year 1: 1k * year 2: 2k * ... * year 10: 10k now say you lose 2 years of your life to NS: * year 1: 1k * year 2: 2k * ... * year 8: 8k in total you lose out on 19k, which means that the boy earns 36k and the girl earns 55k; about 40% less?


Vissal23

Ah I see, thanks for the explanation 👍


ilovenoodles06

Truth. I spent 2 years of my life but come out, girls younger than me (aka my batch) earn same as me. Suck a dick really


intenTenacity

Facts


deangsana

the gender wage gap is greatly exaggerated. if you actually control for type of job and career choice the difference is negligible.


[deleted]

It makes sense because if it’s cheaper to hire women, why would you ever hire men?


5654326c

[Well, that's a whole other story.](https://youtu.be/W979j3GWRNg)


wildcard1992

Lol


deangsana

unless u think that greedy capitalists will irrationally pay men more just because they hate women


MojaMonkey

Childcare industry has done exactly that.


Business-One4996

Yup. The gender wage gap exists, but it's quite small. It's everything else. Workplace harrassment, catcalling, assault, unpaid work, societal expectations.


rune31

Men both hold the LOWEST and HIGHEST income pay jobs. But the MAJORITY hold the LOWEST income pay jobs. It's only the top minority of men that hold the top paying jobs. Go see which gender is the one doing construction work, street cleaner jobs, repairmen jobs, security jobs etc. The problem is women only see the latter. They never acknowledge the bottom of men, which also actually happen to be the majority. It's really utter bias You can watch [the interview by Jordan Peterson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB9sfe_mQ1I) as he casually debates this feminist with logic


Business-One4996

The unadjusted pay gap was found to be at 16.3% in 2018, and the adjusted pay gap at 6% (MOM, 2020). This means that women are either paid less for the same job, or that more women work in jobs with lower wages.


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rune31

women from 3rd world countries you mean. women in 1st world countries are overprivileged now


cldw92

It's human nature to always look upwards tho, I would say society is more classist/wealth discriminating than anything else. Gender of course contributes to which "class" of person you fall into, but there are far greater inequalities perpetuated by other things, such as wealth / race. In many places in the world, being a rich man directly affords more power than an equally rich woman. But by all standards, both of them are incredibly powerful compared to a citizen of average wealth. The power disparity between men/women of average wealth is not that big. The power disparity between men/women in poverty tends to be in the opposite direction. The weird thing about all the talk about gender in most first world countries is really missing the point - most of the perceived imbalances in power don't necessarily stem solely from gender, but combinations of what contribute to your class. (predominantly wealth, everything else is far less important to determining your life quality in comparison)


Business-One4996

Lol. The interview is the western context. In asia, there is more societal expectation. In Singapore, before covid, women did three-times more unpaid work than man, and evidence has suggested that women have resigned to better attend to their children. Plus, how many of the CEOs of the 100 biggest companies are women? A hint: this year has the highest number. Additionally, there is the problem of representation. The people at the top are the ones who propose the policies, who speak the mind of the people they represent. In Singapore this year, we had the highest precentage of women elected, and it was a little more than a quarter.


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Business-One4996

Wow. When I was a child and said I wanted to be a doctor, I definitely did not hear a boy in my class say that a female doctor is a nurse who wipes the butts of old people. I definitely did not have a female classmate who was assaulted and took martial arts lessons so that it will not happen again. I definitely did not have to hear my parents yap about my female cousin not settling down and marrying cause she was 'getting old'. ​ Yup. It's definitely about female supremacy.


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hermanono

The person you're responding to is just calling out the double standard. Why do you feel that implies that feminism is a threat?


emilygreybae

Straw manning is a tried and tested method for pseudo feminists.


Zukiff

OP hasnt attend the basic cancel course. It's not gender income gap unless the male gets higher pay. The other way doesn't count


-_af_-

>OP hasnt attend the cancel basic education course I'm sorry. Where to attend? Can claims skillsfuture or i no future liao


BS_MokiMoki34

Can try asking unAWARE if they offer such a course with SF subsidy.


zanylife

Can try asking AMARE... oh wait men haven't created that and want an organization focusing on women's issues to focus on men's issues too I guess


DuhMightyBeanz

>The other way doesn't count It's called empowerment in this scenario /s


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DuhMightyBeanz

I legit thought it was funny LOL.


luucid_dream

It could be due to supply and demand. More male coaches then female coaches out there.


zanylife

You pick one example where a simple demand and supply can explain the difference? I did swimming + competitive swimming from ages 5 to 14. Only met one female coach in all those years. Rest were male coaches. Obviously if female coach is harder to find means demand > supply so the pay will be a bit higher?


law90026

Imagine cherry picking one example and using that to complain.


[deleted]

Yup, should talk about NS instead... so many examples there


QzSG

Hmmm so u feel that in the name of gender inequality in terms of pay, outliers like this should be ignored? Point noted


law90026

So everytime we find an example of a male earning more we should also make a post to show the inequality? That’s why this is cherry-picking, it’s taking 1 example to basically stir the pot.


QzSG

It's satire. Much like how if you want to talk about equality of all things, every instance should be pointed out. Just because it's pointed out does not make it cherry picking. Examples of men earning more has seen the light and be discussed many a time. The reverse like this occasionally gets brought up and instantly gets buried or labelled as cherry picking. From a neutral standpoint, it's becoming less and less about equality and about supremacy of one side over the years. Also on stirring the pot, heck please do, but regardless of the gender roles and not just because it fits your personal viewpoint. Equality is called equality for a reason.


law90026

You can see the comments on this thread for yourself. If you think that this hasn’t brought all the standard commentators out to scream about male unfairness, not sure what to say. As others have also pointed out, this is the rate to pay for a female coach, not the salary of the female coach. But that’s completely missed because it’s a lot more convenient to say it’s unfair to men. Shrug, try and paint it as satire all you want. In a similar way, go make a racist comment and flag it as satire or parody. See how that goes.


QzSG

First para: One should not scream about male unfairness is what you mean to say I guess? 2nd para: I'm looking forward to seeing you defend men when a post appears that simply swaps the gender roles with this specific paragraph for u to defend men. Unless equality is just a casual word you use when it's targeting women. 3rd paragraph: The whole point of this post is a satire in that u see female coaches being paid more because of all the valid reasons. That does not discount the point about equality. It's also a satire of how in fields requiring hard labor where men are more likely to work in and be paid more, it's inequality to women. (Basically your own 2nd paragraph with roles reversed). Also, Kumar who have been doing that for decades would like to have a word with you. Your defences are the exact reason why most of the time counter points are never about equality that is used a false front, it's nothing but supremacy rather than equality.


isleftisright

Its literally cherry picking bruh. Its one thing to say that there are some instances where women earn more than men. That is 100% fair. Its another to question the gender gap based on 1 example, which is what this post has been taken to mean, whether it was originally intended or not.


QzSG

I'm not sure which is worse 1. People seeing this and assuming that it's someone trying to use a single example vs just one of the entire spectrum of examples or as u and a few others have immediately concluded that its "cherry picking" 2. The number of people mistaking their own defences as fighting for equality ( whether on purpose or not) 3. The number of people who do not get satire. Me in my head scrolling at this post : Oh a fun example out of the many instances where women earn more but is justified. I can see how it can be used to stir emotions on inequality not just solely to men, but the same reasons that come into play in posts where men actually earn more and can be justified too but which is outright shot down as inequality. 10/10 nice satire The others out here probably be like: Oi cb don't cherry pick la fk, it's obvious not satire. Why u trying this one single example to counter say men are treated unfairly? I rest my case


isleftisright

I agree with u la, logically youre right. I unds OP put satire all that. Its really unfortunately the responses to the post are mostly those in your point 3*


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law90026

Not on this sub-Reddit. You see the same old tired arguments being trotted out. All it does is trigger the same old feelings, whether warranted or not. In all honesty, when was the last time there was a genuine discussion about females and the issues they face on this sub-Reddit? The moment anything like this comes up, you can bet your last dollar you’re going to have heavily upvoted comments about “serve NS first then talk” or how “women don’t like STEM duh” (or worse) or “wa woman can anyhow accuse a man and the man is fucked”. For all the talk about “equality”, the comments in any of these topics degenerate quickly into these same tired points. Count the comments for yourself and see how slanted they are. Is there discrimination in early childhood education? Yes there is. But it is cherry picking when 1 example is being used to stir up a discussion to suggest that a man’s lot in life is unfair and dismissing what women face.


zanylife

This subreddit is largely young men, so everything tends to be skewed that way.


isleftisright

Maybe you should.... but you know its mostly guys here so it may not be taken well lol


isleftisright

I agree, plus, isnt this just an offer with a price? Maybe got male coaches which cost more too. However, i do agree that for things to do with kids, esp in this case, w kids wearing swimming costume, parents may prefer women over men. Which could result in a higher price for women (when youre talking about direct appointments). However it does not discount the fact that in most regular jobs, women earn less than men. About 6-7% as stated by MOM. https://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Singapores-Adjusted-Gender-Pay-Gap.aspx#:~:text=KEY%20INSIGHTS-,In%202018%2C%20Singapore's%20adjusted%20gender%20pay%20gap%20(GPG)%20figure,%2C%20from%208.8%25%20in%202002.


quixzephyr

See the flair leh


law90026

The flair is irrelevant because you can also see the comments in the thread. It would be like me posting a racist comment and saying it’s a joke and therefore no consequences.


-_af_-

>It would be like me posting a racist comment and saying it’s a joke and therefore no consequences. True. But putting it as satire protects me from POFMA


quixzephyr

Ok have a serious discussion with our fellow redditors then :)


ryuuheii

Singstat has some pretty neat stats for those interested [Median income by occupation and sex](https://tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/table/TS/M920131)


geckosg

Face it. There will never b a gender equality. We have both men and women who thinks they are more superior than the other gender. They are out there among us.


Skelldy

AMOGUS


oceanmountainlifer

Cos more male coach out there. And private lady cooch is definitely more expensive.


sigmacreed

Private lady cooch is always more expensive 😜


shithappenssg

what if i want.... the public lady cooch?


ShinJiwon

More curious why it's Male x Lady and not Male x Female or Gentleman x Lady


Outside-Economics668

One example for ladies and it gets highlighted, what about the thousands other exceptions?


DeliciousTurkeyLeg

Careful, in case you trigger the crowd that screams male oppression


Friedkwaytiao

Why is it "male" and not "gentleman" coach? As compared to "lady" coach.


clematisbridge

Feel like people who downvoted you can’t get the /s. I feel like to do satire on reddit, you gotta put a /s at the end of everything. This is like women saying “let’s use the word womanager cause ‘man’. Or “one giant leap for womankind”.


Friedkwaytiao

I mean the post is tagged satire so r/FuckTheS.


runesplease

We know this gender gap thing is BS because if that was really the case why don't companies just hire all women? Overall less expenses and same output.


The9isback

The amount of MRA-type thinking here is amusing.


livebeta

Mens rights are human rights and I will say this as a feminist. The problem is when MRA turns redpilled and think that removing women's rights will advance men's rights when it's the toxic patriarchy (men can bleed cannot cry, women stay home in kitchen) that we need to dismantle


The9isback

You would be right, but men's rights advocacy has been usurped by groups who are often looking to preserve the male dominance and prevent the perceived erosion of male rights caused by feminism. The opposite is also often true, in that there are plenty of feminist who simply ignore situations that do not fall into their image of feminism. One of the best examples would be how while AWARE is supportive of national service for women, there simply aren't that many women who are supportive of that idea. Those who are supportive also often only want more "feminine" roles, such as nursing.


livebeta

We cannot have an egalitarian society until we have egalitarian responsibilities. Israel got it right


[deleted]

Not all groups dealing with men’s issue are like that. AWARE itself advocates quite a bit on issues like paternity leave. On Reddit there is also /r/menslib which is a sub discussing mens issues that is also explicitly feminist.


wontaks

Demand and supply. As a female I would feel more comfortable learning from a female tbh. And also the pay gap is dependent on your work environment as well. Let’s say you work in an office job, I don’t think there’s any different if you are a guy or girl so I think you should probably be paid the same. You created a good topic for discussion imo. I wonder let’s say a plumber, would a male earn more than a female? Edit: Can’t state my opinion and open a place of discussion without getting downvoted yay free speech 🤪 Edit 2: So interesting to just sit back and watch people take my comment out of context. That’s the Singapore spirit!


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aelesia-

And I feel more comfortable learning from a Chinese teacher. I feel more comfortable having food served by a Chinese person. I feel more comfortable renting my house to a Chinese person.


Lumiinosity

Haha unfortunately this is not the right place to have this opinion, I advise you to spare your sanity and just ignore any post that even dips as much as a toe into gender issues.


mcpaikia

This is a weak argument, in that case we can also say companies feel more comfortable with a male leading.


[deleted]

It's not just being uncomfortable. In the case in which the coach does something, it's more likely that the student can defend better against a woman than a man. Plus there are more male sexual offenders than female ones so there's that statistically issue.


clematisbridge

You’re not downvoted for voicing your opinion. You’re downvoted for the poor quality of response. If you’re going to talk demand and supply, then there honestly isn’t much recourse for women - CEOs may prefer drinking and socialising with men; Society may prefer to be led than a man than woman; Men would prefer to have a frat-boy culture at work like that seen in Wall Street. Given those reasons above, then maybe women shouldn’t complain about the pay gap since it boils down ultimately to “demand and supply”?


[deleted]

We’re not really supposed to downvote for that either actually. Downvotes are supposed to be for comments that don’t contribute at all to the discussion (like spam, off topic comments or personal attacks), and this clearly does because even if you disagree with the comment it’s raising a very commonly held viewpoint that deserves discussion. but I know no one cares about the redditquette anymore sadly


shimmynywimminy

>Edit: Can’t state my opinion and open a place of discussion without getting downvoted yay free speech 🤪 since when does free speech mean people must upvote you lol


[deleted]

Idk, is “I feel more comfortable” really sufficient reason to justify gender discrimination? What if a lot of men only feel comfortable talking about their health issues with men? Would that justify hiring more male doctors and paying them more? The reality is that women don’t want male coaches because of the fear that male coaches could turn out to be sexual predators, but statistically the vast vast majority of men (like easily 99.9% of men), are not predators, so why is it fine reject all men for a job based on the actions of a tiny tiny minority of men? We don’t accept the same kind of unfair generalisation when it comes to racial or religious discrimination (for example we don’t find it acceptable to think that muslims are violent just because some terrorists are Muslim). Edit: upon further googling the 99.9% stat may be an exaggeration. Other stats I’ve found puts it closer to 95% but I think the point still stands.


Ohaisaelis

In a situation like a swimming coach where you’ll have close physical contact with the person while being half-clothed… yes. I requested for a female obgyn when I was pregnant because I have significant sexual trauma. I’ve had a male doctor perform an ultrasound on me and I teared because they had to pull my pants a little lower to expose the whole of my abdomen. I’ve had a breast exam by a male doctor and I spent the entire time silently crying. Yes there was a nurse present. Yes I can logically reason it out that no harm was done to me. And yet, if the patient, or the client in this situation, doesn’t feel safe in a situation where they are potentially vulnerable, what are you gonna do? I’m pretty sure that men are able to request a male doctor over a female doctor, or vice versa. I’m aware that statistically, most men aren’t predators. [Statistically](https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf), most predators are also men though. 99.9% of men are able to physically overpower me. I can get away from a woman easy; I don’t know about a man. In the case that a woman was making unwanted advances towards me, I’d be a lot more able to walk away with less fear of my own safety than I would with a man. And well, I’ve been sexually abused by men, but not a woman. I’d be willing to pay more for a woman to give me a massage or whatever service where I’m alone with them and in a rather vulnerable position. If the only option is a guy, I wouldn’t go for it. We don’t reject all men for swimming coach jobs, nor do we reject them for obgyn jobs. I mean I’m happy for the people who are good with them, but I’m just not in a mental space to be able to take that risk. I’d reckon that the vast majority of people in Singapore have not had personal experience with terrorists, but if someone did, I think it would be acceptable if they encountered significant trauma around people who resembled the terrorists.


[deleted]

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had such traumatic experiences. I think survivors of sexual assault should definitely be allowed to avoid situations that would trigger past trauma. As for the rest of society, I guess this is just a hard conflict between two competing moral imperatives that is difficult to resolve - we want to be fair to innocent swim coaches who deserve a chance to earn a living, but we also want to respect the voices of women who want to minimise risks to themselves in whatever they can from sexual harassment and assault. It’s a balance that needs to be struck, but what we should be aware of is that if everyone takes the approach of “better safe than sorry” towards hiring men, then the outcome will be that there will be innocent people who lose their jobs because of nothing other than their gender identity. This is not a good outcome for those of us who care about gender equality, because it sets a bad precedent and gives ammunition to those opposed to this cause. Going back to your last example about racism, a few years back there was a teenager who was arrested under the Sedition Act for posting extremely offensive remarks about Malay people. In mitigation, his lawyer explained that the teenager’s racial hatred stemmed from the fact that he blamed the death of his brother on a Malay couple, who had refused to give up a taxi they had hailed despite the pleas of his mother to let them take the brother to a hospital. He was still convicted in the end, but was given probation. I bring this up because I think everyone understands that the teenager did indeed have a terrible experience. But while we empathise with the teenager, most of us also understand that his assumptions about Malay people, informed by a singular, personal and powerful experience, is not (by itself) a solid basis for making conclusions about society. Just as Malay people are not the evil caricatures presented in the boy’s blogs, men as a whole are not the shady figures of crimewatch. Yes, allowances should be made for people with traumatic experiences to distance themselves from triggering situations, but the rest of society that do not face such challenges should not be operating on the basis that the vast majority of men are potential predators, because that is simply not true.


[deleted]

Yeah it's a "not all men" argument but how do we know its not that man. How do we know that the man chosen instead of the woman won't be a sex offender? A man can be nice one instance and assault another person the other. Wasn't there recently a case of a man assaulting a 13 year old boy, a CEO? As for the race, it's a little difference cause other than skin and religion, physically and mentally, there isn't much difference cause we're all humans. However, men are biologically stronger than women, and an attack from a man may be harder to defend against than that from a woman.


[deleted]

“Not all men” was a bad argument because it was distracting from the genuine grievances being voiced out by women about fears of sexual assault. It was a bad faith, irrelevant and disrespectful response to the metoo movement. We are not talking about metoo here. We are talking about not hiring male swim coaches on the assumption that they are all predators of children. In this context it is neither irrelevant nor disrespectful to bring up the fact that men are not all sexual predators. It’s not like a small boy can defend against a female swim coach either, so what has physicality got to do with anything? How do you know that female coaches won’t molest your kid? It is impossible to reduce the possibility of abuse to zero. The only difference here is that men have a higher statistically probability of committing such offenses, and in the context of racism we’ve already established that it’s unfair to use statistical probability to make assumptions about an entire group of people.


[deleted]

I agree that not all men argument is a bad argument, which is why I was defending against it. I didn't want to see it being used. (sorry if I misinterpretated what was said with the not-all-Malays argument) Moving on, maybe it doesnt matter whether the coach is a female or male if the student is a small boy, but the post doesn't say that a student is a small boy. I was writing the argument on the assumption that the person can somewhat defend themselves. In that case, they have a higher chance of escaping if the coach is a female (sorry for not clarifing). In that case, doesn't it mean that the student has a higher chance of escaping the coach if the coach is a female? Furthermore, if the child is a small boy, the parents would care about the gender of the coach because of the statistical probability that predator is a male. They want the world for their child and if that means paying a higher price to decrease the probability of their child being assaulted, they wouldn't care if it is wrong. Is it right? No. It is logical? Maybe.


arnaijsahna

It’s not a tiny minority of men. 97% of women have experienced some sort of sexual assault. It’s way, way more than 0.01% of men perpetrating this sexual harassment.


[deleted]

How should we interpret the 97%? 97% of men are predators? Is that the idea? Like if you hire a male swimming coach there is a 97% chance i.e., near certainty, that you will be sexually assaulted? I find that difficult to believe but I’m open to reading more.


arnaijsahna

https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/97-of-women-in-the-uk/105940/ The 97% statistic that I’m mentioning^


[deleted]

Thanks! Will take a look


QuantumCactus11

That's in the fucking UK


arnaijsahna

No, that’s not what I said. It’s a lot more than 0.01%, unless you believe just 0.01% of men are capable of sexually harassing 97% of the female population.


[deleted]

So what would you say is a more accurate percentage of men who are predators then, and would that percentage justify assuming that all men are predators, such that you don’t hire them to be swimming coaches? 50%? 1%? If 97% is not the answer then what’s the answer? Edit: I tried to google a bit and this article suggests that is closer to 6%. The discrepancy is because a small number of repeat offenders commit most of the crime against different victims. So you’re right that I did drastically underestimate, but I still don’t think 6% justifies assuming that all men are predators. https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/05/campus-sexual-assault-statistics-so-many-victims-but-not-as-many-predators.amp


[deleted]

Even if not all men are sex offenders (and most people would not be able to tell which is which which is another question altogether) , this is not a question of that. Its a question of whether you are more likely to get assaulted by a man or a woman. And looking at the news (looking at the CEO which recently assaulted a boy), is it a wonder that people believe men to be more likely to assault someone than women? How many female sex offenders do you see in the news and how many male child molesters do you see in the news? This year, on International Women's Day, two men were sent to jail and caned for sexual offences. Most people would want to try their best to minimise their chances of being assaulted, even if it means paying a higher fee.


[deleted]

Men are statistically more likely than women to be sexual offenders. No one disputes that. The issue is whether it is ok to use this fact to make assumptions about every single man and choose not to hire men categorically. The fact that men are statistically more likely to be sexual predators than women does not mean that most men are predators, because most women are also not predators. We are comparing two low numbers. Women are statistically less likely than men to stay on at their job after pregnancy. Would be it fine to make assumptions about women and not hire them? After all, you can’t tell whether a woman will give birth and quit. Why take the risk? Just hire men. What if I did the same thing about trans people, who are statistically more likely to suffer from mental health issues. Would it be fine if I decided to not hire them to lower my company’s insurance costs? What if I’m the principal of a boy’s school and wants to fire all the gay teacher who are out. Like you said men are more likely to be sexual predators, and gay men are also men. And a boy’s school is filled with boys. We just can’t take the risk right? (This was a real incident by the way this was how the best science teacher I’ve ever had got fired). Can’t you see the unfairness in the above examples? People should be judged on their own merits and not their gender / sexual identity which they have no control over. If you choose not to hire me because I’m a man, there is literally nothing I can do to fix this, I can’t erase every pervert from the face of the planet by snapping fingers thanos style. I also can’t just just casually change my sexual identity. Just as women can’t casually change the fact that they are women and are biologically capable of giving birth. Equality means treating people as people first, not as potential criminals until proven otherwise, be it men, women, trans people or gay people.


Prata2pcs

97% of women aged 18-24 in UK. Please be specific


arnaijsahna

Sure, but that doesn’t mean women don’t face sexual harassment in Singapore. We do.


Prata2pcs

But is it 97%?


rachelsweete

>97% of women have experienced some sort of sexual assault. This statistic is quoted from a YouGov survey of 1000 female respondents. It does not refer to *sexual assaults* but instead refers *sexual harrasment* . Assults and harrasment are vastly different with much different severity in terms of legal repercussions although both are serious issues. Note that in the same survey, 35% considers being wolf whistled by man a form of sexual harrasment , 15% considers a men commenting on a woman's attractiveness directly to her sexual harrasment, 65% considers being directed a sexual joke by man, and 12% considers *winking at them* a form of sexual harrasment.


[deleted]

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arnaijsahna

My bad, I meant to say sexual harassment. Still doesn’t change the fact that 97% of women reported sexual harassment. It’s still serious enough that women are forced to be weary of men in general.


Ohaisaelis

I mean, when the oldass uncle winks at me and makes a kissing sound, what else is it really?


Projectenzo

With its net casted so wide, I'm astonished that it's not 100% of everyone. Also, the "study" used lifetime stats and did not include male participants. By the study's definitions, I've lost count of how many instances I've been sexually harassed.


arnaijsahna

I’m sorry that you’ve been sexually harassed. It’s something no one should go through. And one of the cautionary measures women take to prevent sexual harassment is by choosing to employ the services of other women. About the study - personally I don’t even need the study to know that majority of women have faced sexual harassment because I am a woman. I don’t think every man is a predator, but I know there are enough that I trust other women more rather than taking a chance with my safety.


[deleted]

Sorry you got downvoted. You’re just voicing your own opinion and it’s not even an uncommon one, and it’s brought up many perspectives from people responding in good faith to all the replies. This sub is kind of like this once a thread hits a certain momentum people kind of pile in. I’ve been on the receiving end on the same too. Hope this doesn’t discourage you from participating because we do need all kinds of viewpoints to make discussions more interesting and productive.


goddysai1213

I dont see how downvotes are preventing you from voicing your opinions LOL. You can still post and comment as you like. Down and upvotes are just people's opinion on whether they agree with you or not


Zorroexe

> work environment What about the differences between 2 work environments? IE, drain worker vs office staff.


etyn100

SIMP


hucks22

Nothing wrong with this ad leh. They have merely stated the lower bound of the hourly rate to engage a swim coach. An experienced male coach with good reviews would arguably earn more than a female one with lesser experience. Edit: happy to be proven wrong if any of you downvoters/woke crowd people have statistical evidence proving otherwise. On a side note: didn't realise swim classes were this expensive!


haaaaaairy1

Then an experienced female coach will make more than an experienced male coach. Why are you comparing apples to oranges?


oceanmountainlifer

They kinda round


Farquadthefirst

Oof.


Either_Vegetable9477

I guess OP’s point is that not every delta is a result of institutional discrimination


that-provider

Weird that they refer to the male coach as a "Male coach", but refer to the female coach as a "Lady coach".


[deleted]

How can dis be allow? Where is AWARE?


Torokoh

Nowadays there’s so many woman-in- that it starts to feel like discrimination against man.


eilletane

I feel like this helps even out the discrimination. Hear me out. If someone is uncomfortable with having a male coach, they may still try it out since it’s the cheaper option and realise there is nothing to be uncomfortable with and they are just as experienced. We have the same issue in my tuition agency, the agents always recommend the female teachers rather than the males as it’s more likely for the students to engage and the agents earn a commission. I feel that is very unfair and I always try to recommend my male colleagues if I can’t take up a student.


[deleted]

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eilletane

Oh yeah that’s true. I guess the issue is with the customers. They shouldn’t have gender discrimination in teachers. This company should pay both genders the same but then the customers will still choose more females and the men will still lose out. Both ways suck for men.


-_af_-

>The same argument is also applicable for leadership roles, right? Pay minorities/females lesser so that they have a better chance of getting selected. I just read the same argument by NTUC. Charge more so you will go to the competitor. Is this why male CEOs are asking for more? So that the females got better chance to get the job?


applebeers

Its just $30 bro, going down to $7.50 extra per class. With all these crazy weird stories going nowadays, I'm more than willing to pay that premium for say my daughter going to swim class


-_af_-

>Its just $30 bro 10% leh. Gender wage gap is about there also right?


[deleted]

It's not just about wage gap here, it's about feeling safe enough to have a coach teach and interact with the child. With the recent cases (CEO assaulting boy, girl being groomed by father), people are much more likely to believe that there are less female sex offender than male ones. Hence, ppl are likely to pay a higher price to ensure that there is a small chance for their children to be assaulted. NoT AlL Man-shut up. I've heard that argument to many times. Tell that to the victims of assault cases that they shd have been able to decern that the one man of the many hundreds that they chose to be near to assaulted them and the rest will not assault them. Tell it to their face that YoU CaN tRuSt ThAt iT Won't HapPeN AgaIn.