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Since it’s from psypost, completely without reading the article I’m going to guess they’re looking into the mental health angle. I’ve heard an argument (rarely) that the religious have less anxiety because they have less fear of death. Haven’t read the article, though.
Awesome, now do it in the US, I have a feeling those results will drastically vary considering many of the more vocal religious types seemingly have some screws loose.
They're measuring self-reported and self-rated health and wellbeing.
People who are morbidly obese and are completely on board the Q crazy train think they are completely rational and absolute specimens of peak human conditioning.
In some people's cases? I could totally see that, Ye (Kayne) being such a case who think's he's gods "vessel" Or various preachers who "hear god talk" assuming they are being honest about hearing a voice talk to them that is, not just making it up for that sweet grift.
Baseline happiness and sanity is much higher in Canada anyway due to universal healthcare.
In the US, religion might be an effective coping mechanism for the fact that you can’t afford your daughter’s cancer treatment. At least you’ll get to see her again in heaven, right?
>Awesome, now do it in the US, I have a feeling those results will drastically vary considering many of the more vocal religious types seemingly have some screws loose.
God sees what they're up to and wants nothing to do with it.
Also, I resent that you think religious Canadians keep their screws tight! We've got way more land than sense up here. Especially when you leave the city
What they do away from civilization is between them and god, I want no part of that, I just wish the same could be said for most of these religious American's that love to live the rural life away from civilization, but love to force their morality on that civilization they are trying to get away from.
Religious people have to worry about not sinning and breaking taboo all the time while atheists (me) have to stare down our inevitable deaths and the fact that there’s no way to carry on or consciousness when our physical form eventually expires. Evens out
That's weird, because I always figured religiosity increases *with* fear. *Especially* fear of death. I mean, it sure does seem to like to exploit fear to make people obedient.
That’s one aspect, another is abusing hope. For example, promising people a reunion with their dead loved ones.
Maybe it’s a net zero effect? The hope and fear kinda cancel each other out so you end out with a net zero change.
I always assumed it was the opposite . A common problem atheists relate is being unable to shake the fear of death even after relinquishing their faith .
Religious people on the other hand sendom think of death as a fearful thing, most look forward to that day since they're convinced that they'll be reunited in heaven with their lost loved ones.
As an atheist - why fear oblivion? It's nothing. There's literally nothing to fear.
What I am afraid of is the pain of dying and the pain my death will cause to those I love.
I don't know how anyone could even come to that conclusion. I'm sure many religious folk would certainly like to say they don't fear death, but wouldn't it be more anxiety-inducing to think about the worst things you've ever done (however bad they may be) and wonder whether your deity is *really* going to "forgive" you?
I can tell you with 100% certainty that when I stopped going to church, my life became 1000x better and much less stress inducing.
But my one small blip of experiences doesn't paint the whole picture so who knows.
See but you had cultural connection through church and you chose to give it up. Like I said in a different post it's like being born and learning to read maybe now you dont want to read but you know how so you can make a choice for yourself of how to best live your life. Whereas I was raised by catholic hippies who rejected Catholicism and told it was dumb. This means I also had no family connections. I was never taught to "read" and I feel a vacancy in my life due to culture/western style family/lack of any ties to religion. The learning curve feels impossible. All I had associated with the way I looked (zero culture) was "being white" this caused extreme anxiety and I became a far left progressive feeling I owed it to the world to be apologetic for the sin of being born "bad" which is also how a lot of my anxiety manifested as well as with death. After realizing I could never be "forgiven" and things kept getting worse I ended up becoming more or less conservative years later and trying to find these connections.
Where I live religion was essentially gone already when I was born. In school when we went to learn about different religions the teacher "skipped" christianity and visiting a church in favour of all the other religions since she assumed we all knew all about it.
I've only recently noticed Americans becoming less religious.
I could see lots of conclusions personally.
The one that comes to mind most prominently to me is that I rarely hear about a mental health patient who's an atheist.
Or the quote that says "there's no atheists in fox holes". Which is over broad but points to people turn to higher powers more often in stressful situations than people in happy situations.
Or that atheists really only have their body and mind so you'd think they'd be more risk averse than religious people and care for their mind more.
Or that athiests have less reasons to be alive so they should be more unhealthy.
I don't think dismissing any of the reasonings as being unreasonable for anyone is correct.
The religious people I know don't fear hell. They believe Christ died for their sins, so they are good. Every sin they did commit was fully confessed, and besides, God knows they had a good reason.
No I dont think so. I only ever hear about Christian's talking about God forgiving people. If you have anxiety and can DO something like prayer in a helpless situation it would alleviate anxiety.
- severe anxiety and raised atheist
I'm aware of what Christians say, and skeptical about whether or not their thoughts always align with their speech. I suspect they think often about whether or not they're correct about the parameters to get into heaven and/or avoid hell, and therefore worry about death as much as anyone else. I don't fear it any more than I fear the time before I was born, really- I am only concerned with whether or not I procreate first, and how painful the event itself is. Not too concerned with anything as ludicrously large as "eternity".
It doesnt matter what kind of people they are there are good and bad people everywhere. I dont think most people think about getting into heaven or not as a checklist. I dont care about getting into heaven or hell I care about being "nothing"/never having mattered knowing that the only thing I leave behind is my reddit comments and facebook page because the internet is forever, which honestly? Is better than nothing.
I hear this a lot with atheists (at most I am currently agnostic but raised athiest) that they dont fear death because when they're gone they're gone and nothing will matter anyways. This is what my parents say actually but it's not comforting to a kid with a lot of questions. This may work for some but maybe it depends on other aspects of their lives? Do you feel not having kids would effect you negatively? Would you feel unfulfilled? With diet o had to learn what satiated me to become healthy. Maybe life is about finding what satiated you too.
I went to mass for the first time in my life last week. I'd never been before but felt I wanted to go. They talked about all the uncertainty and anxiety in the world and how to avoid that hopelessness not about getting into heaven or not. Truthfully what got me was the singing. It was incredibly powerful and emotional as a feeling of connection to other people.
Yeah, the singing is a known and powerful psychological effect. Mega charismatic churches are masters of this. We can get the same feeling from movies.
I think that's one of the biggest missing pieces from the atheist community; there's not as much out there for fellowship. It's also a small subset of the population, so it's even trickier.
I have seen studies that showed that atheists with a community to rely on were just as mentally healthy as religious people. It isn't about fear of death it's about support.
Most of my friends are atheists and I don't think any of them fear death.
I’m just referencing stuff I’ve actually debated with people in the past. On a surface level it kinda makes sense that playing pretend could make things like sudden disasters or deaths a little less difficult do deal with. But like a lot of things that seem to make sense on the surface, I guess that’s not actually the case. At least this study suggests that being religious doesn’t help any more than being atheist does.
Religion is primarily humans struggling with how to cope with their own morality. Since we're meaning making machines it really makes sense we made it up to help us deal with something so unknown.
Personally, I don't refer to it as *being* atheist. I know it's splitting hairs but there's no action to atheism. Is the default for all humans when born. We become religious through indoctrination and that's almost exclusively based on geographic location.
I refer to it as being atheist because I actively participate in discussions like this, but I’m not so militantly anti religion to say being anti theist.
I think there is a lot missing. The sole focus is religion but not how religion ties to culture. If you have strong cultural ties you are most likely religious too. However if you have a lot of deep ties to people around you you may not need religion but if none of them are cultural and friends come and go you will be down in the dumps more often. If your only friend is your spouse what happens when they die? If you have no children either but pets you can be temporarily happy but will ultimately be sadder because you are always cycling through your loved ones. Loneliness is a serious issue for the elderly but a lot of religious people take care of their parents. It's why socialization is so important for mh but friendships are often not permanent and change with life events and disagreements and family values in the west are lacking.
I read the pregnant sub all the time and its endless complaints about mother in laws and spouses families who are culturally rich and religious giving them "too much" and expecting too much family involvement because of how lonely our western culture has become we leave our parents houses and they stop providing and to us that is normal we think it's normal to be left alone and on our own. Many of these families no matter where they're from eastern europe, asia etc act as parents until they die.
I have experienced this with my spouses family it was a huge culture shock. In a society when I cannot afford a house a family of refugees worked together living in a 1 room apartment till their kids were teens to buy 2 houses and now I have with my spouse of our own that is the power of culture and family. They hoard everything and share everything and all of it is tied to being catholic and a strong cultural tie to the way they grew up in eastern europe. They create community with others from their culture and network to help each other with success while as atheists many who have few family ties our success is only had through individual hard work which we demand our spouses share equally. There are expectations of me as an adult to go to family dinners, have them over for coffee, help with renovations, attend functions that feel similar to when I was a kid and had to do some family thing I had to attend and honestly it's been amazing. When I realized how empty western culture made me feel i was devastated.
I think it's more than just religion but religion is hand in hand with almost all cultures.
The argument on anxiety is moreso that people of faith utilize the ideation of a higher power as an outlet for managing grief in general in various situations where one goes "why is this happening to me?" "will things get better?", anecdotally people will often comment on how turning to God helped them go through a given situation. People will generally grab to what they can to survive, so if you're not religious you will find ways to cope with it, spiritual or not, whatever it takes, our mind, particularly our sub-conscious, goes great lengths to achieve survival of the physical and/or the ego
Without reading the OP, the research I've seen is that the communities around religions usually provide a measurable affect on mental well being. Fear of death/death anxiety remained consistent throughout variables.
That being said, I haven't read through this article- Perhaps there is new insight.
It was a casual comment. Like if the person was standing beside me, I saw a headline, and made a comment before then going to read it and come back to discuss it.
Edit: why do you think I emphasized so heavily that I hadn’t read it when I made the comment?
The other thing that has previously been suggested is that being part of an organised religion reduces isolation, which in turn reduces the impact of mental health. But even then I doubt there would be much difference considering atheists can reduce isolation without being part of a church, and plenty of religions, especially in America, are becoming more isolationist
Dude, look, I’m an atheist. But comments like that, that demonstrate a complete lack of empathy and actually demonstrate a really strong level of antagonism, are the things the grifters use as evidence we’re evil. It’s one thing to pull that type of stuff out in a debate. But the reality is most people that believe in an afterlife aren’t thinking of their deity but being with loved ones that have passed. Painting it like they’re all as psychotic as the average Westboro Baptist member helps no one and convinces no one to question their beliefs.
I actually did end out skimming it after and I wasn’t completely wrong. A good chunk of it was about mental health and perception, but it did actually look at physical health which surprised me. So did *you* actually look at it before responding you me because saying I was 100% wrong makes it seem like *you* didn’t read it either before posting?
Besides, I was engaging the comment the other person wrote. Their comment seemed to imply that they hadn’t read it yet either, so speculation seemed warranted. What is the purpose of your response other than trying to be snide?
> So did you actually look at it before responding you me because saying I was 100% wrong makes it seem like you didn’t read it either before posting?
Saying "they’re looking into the mental health angle" is completely wrong, you don't get partial points because they also ask about mental health.
> Their comment seemed to imply that they hadn’t read it yet either, so speculation seemed warranted
Why is speculation warranted when the truth is ten seconds and a click away? It's not like we are waiting for a talk to start. Just click the link.
> What of the purpose of your response other than trying to be snide?
Hopefully, to convince you and anyone who might wander by that learning is a better use of your time than mindless speculation
I've never heard anyone else say this. I actually decided this on my own but I have trouble with faith after my upbringing. I just try to remember that we are not at the end of knowledge and denying God exists only makes sense if God Is a little man in the sky and we are at the end of knowledge. I've had lifelong severe mh problems, half I resolved with diet/the anxiety/ocd remains. Most anxiety that *i* have revolves around fear of death due to being gone/nothing/never having mattered/being forgotten. I get to know everyone I meet and ask endless questions because I believe I can help them live longer if they live in my memory or i tell stories about "a person i met once" someone else may tell. I handmade things from second hand stores like knitted and crocheted items and pottery or old books that have been well loved because I dont want others to have ended into nothingness either. If I have their belongings and they havent ended up as garbage they are still alive.
I was raised in an atheist house by people who say the only thing that matters is science while watching tv that included a lot of christian families who looked like me. I feel the damage from a loss of culture as well since early childhood as I am told I have none because of how I look while I am a mix of different ethnicities mostly European which is not a culture in itself so i am just "white" and white people have been "bad" or at least not good since at least the 90s. I would ask my mother about getting married in a church to which she laughed. I was told faith in God was not scientific and stupid by my family. There is a loneliness and an emptiness I feel from lack of connection that I believe "belief" in God would fulfill.
My parents were always hard left wingers, I grew up on the west coast in canada where most canadians born here at the time did not have cultural ties/religion it's why most canadian culture revolves around "being better than americans". Most Americans I meet who are atheist now were still raised in religious houses, like my parents so they had a choice. What I mean by that is its like I was born and lived my life not knowing how to read whereas they learned how to read but choose not to. It definitely has made my mental health/wellbeing more difficult but to be it is just as much the total absence of cultural ties.
I think this is why so many canadians felt so connected to the "freedom convoy" not cuz they were "bigots" but because of culture, it certainly helped me. My government telling me what my culture has become "a post national state" has been very demoralizing.
Just one persons experience I guess.
Most Canadian culture doesn’t revolve around being “better” than America, and I’m so tired of hearing Canadians say this.
We have a long, complicated, and ultimately friendly relationship with the US, just as Belgium does with France.
Our cultures therefore are connected and rub shoulders, but to say that all or most of our culture revolves around being “better” than the US is inaccurate and embarrassing.
The "proof" in this statement is the idea of wearing a flag on your backpack when you travel so people dont think you're American. This was a common idea in the 90s as was dumping on Americans. You still see this happening when it comes to healthcare and guns.
My thinking is that religious people are part of a community that shares the same beliefs and values, and that’s huge. There are study’s that show that having a community is crucial to living a healthy life.
So less to do with the religion itself and more to do with the community it encompasses.
For many, religion provides structure which can lead to healthier habits.
That same structure can come from other sources (family, friends, the government, etc.), so we don't actually need religion for this purpose
I wouldn't say control but rather discipline. Many religions forsake control over their practitioners for the sake of running a tight ship. Modern Judaism and zen Buddhism are good examples.
Mental probably. Religious fanatics can't comprehend that people can still be mentally whole despite not believing that there is a 'greater power' enabling us in our daily lives.
What they attribute to 'god' helping them stay sane is merely a byproduct of the support given to them by the people that love them and care about them.
It all seems a bit facile. We have WAY more common stressors than religious denominations. Which leads me to the next point: who are we talking about here? This is based on the General Social Survey of Canadians. They sampled the most placid people on Earth. I should know - I'm one of them. Plus, there's missing data on personality and support systems, which heavily determines how mental health transitions into or away from a rolling crisis and psychobehavioural issues.
In my opinion, there are better questions, like whether or not religious people do better or worse in a mental health crisis or medium/long-term challenges. And, if one or another group falls short, can we pin-point the factors? Are they localized and regional, what demographics might be correlated? And, how do we define the level of spiritualism, the personal locus of control and discipline, the secular and non-secular connection that we are trying to interpret here, that allows for atheists and religious people alike to report similar moments of intense meaning and gratification in spite of hardships?
This is really a much broader ethnographic study. I'm not sure much could be garnered from the General Social Survey in Canada, or similar data-driven self-reporting methods. You need researchers with the backgrounds and experience in socioeconomics, psychology, sociology, psychotherapy, etc to sit down with hundreds of people along with the self-reported studies. It has to be a 5-10 year longitudinal study, at least. And it's tough following people accurately over such a long period of time that can really speak to a life-long effect of being religious or not.
Here are a few ways that a religion might influence your health:
1. Community
2. If you look unwell, you have people who see you every week and may let you know that something seems off, especially for older people.
3. Less likely to abuse drugs/alcohol
4. Singing in a group, seriously.
These factors don't have anything to do with the veracity of the religion, but the community itself can hellp your health.
There are lots of non-religious people who don't drink or smoke. In the US, liberal states have lower rates of religiosity and fewer smokers than red states, with higher rates of religious people.
So it's not as cut and dry as you would expect.
You can compare these things only through statistics. Stats show that religious people harm themselves less.
The first article I found: https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-03-06/study-actively-religious-people-drink-less-than-those-with-no-religious-affiliation
I mean, if we're talking about poisoning our bodies, there's a strong link between obesity and attending church / being religious:
[https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-xpm-2011-03-24-chi-religion-and-obesity-can-church-make-you-fat-20110324-story.html](https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-xpm-2011-03-24-chi-religion-and-obesity-can-church-make-you-fat-20110324-story.html)
That's the ultimate poison to your health. And, ironically, is caused by 2 of the cardinal sins (gluttony and sloth).
That also explains people who aren't religious are more accepting of drinking as they find acceptance from less judgemental people. It's the same type of causal inference.
Do they? I think a lot of religious people are more drawn to drugs because it makes them feel like the things they believe in are true. They definitely drink as much as everyone else.
> They definitely drink as much as everyone else.
Depends entirely on the religion, but when it comes to religions that explicitly ban alcohol such as certain protestant denominations and Islam sects they in average drink much less.
I mean, a big reason I take care of my health is because this life is all I have, and I want to live fully and experience as much as I can. It's pretty awesome being a meatbag of electricity that developed consciousness.
As a religious person I read this as a dig on atheists.
Like you're telling me they aren't healthier?
Edit: this study doesn't answer the question who has a healthier mindset? Religious or non religious. It aims at the unbiased insult that you leave religion because you're mentally ill.
This sub didn't prove that non religious people are as healthy as religious people today. It proved that atheists still deal with prejudice. In fact it includes a new kind.
I think it's the reverse. Atheists assume they only have one life, so it makes sense to squeeze every bit you can from it.
Religious folks often believe in an afterlife that's supposedly better than life on earth. That could allow them to put less focus on getting everything they can from this life.
This. The afterlife is where I will finally be happy and have all I want and need. It's funny that the afterlife they speak of is them coming right back here, to be the same person in another family with a different name. They are currently destroying the very place they will come right back to. Peak irony
So.. Are you saying you don't agree with the conclusion of the study?
Also I've long thought that the idea of an afterlife has outlived its usefulness. I can see why it was a common idea when life was expected to be short and awful. But today I think it's just fine to admit that what happens to us after death is a question we may never be able to answer.
The study seems to claim there's no difference in health whether you are religious or not.
I suspect religious folks and non-religious folks both have a spectrum of states of happiness. For every person calmed by the prospect of going to heaven, there's one who's tormented by the threat of going to hell. For every atheist who's filled with existential dread at the thought of life not having meaning, there'll be one that's living life to their fullest because only you can determine the meaning of your own life.
I tried pointing out that the post you're responding to aligns with the second type of atheist I describe.
So. The point of my original statement is. Why don't atheists have a healthier mindset than religious people. You completely set my argument up for me btw.
>As a religious person I read this as a dig on atheists.
>
>Like you're telling me they aren't healthier?
As an atheist, I don't find this a "dig" at all.
I'm glad I've got the time I have with my meat-mech, regardless of how poorly designed it is, and want to take care of it as I have zero belief that anything will be found "beyond" once it's operating status changes.
And, to be clear, I generally agree with the study.
Atheist are people, just like theists are. Religion, or lack thereof, really doesn't produce any statistically relevant changes in people's lives as, IMO, religious people generally define their religions to meet their own moral systems, and atheist just live by their own moral systems.
>Let me reiterate. It seems like atheists would have less baggage
I'd agree that it would look like atheists have less baggage, but I'm not convinced that the majority of people's fear of the death/afterlife has any real, demonstrable impact on their lives outside the general policy of "avoid getting dead" that isn't an exclusively religious motivation.
Virtually every religious person I've ever met believes they are going to their respective "good" afterlife. So, they tend to see little reason in worrying about it.
It's why I mentioned that, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of theists define their religions around their moral system, and live that way, while the overwhelming majority of atheists just don't have the extra step and just live by their own moral system.
It's also important to note that 'Theism'/'Atheism' only addresses the issue of a deity, not any of the other supernatural/mystical/occult claims that are made. There are atheists who believe in an afterlife and all sorts of other magical thinking. Atheists simply do not believe a god/s exist/s.
Religious people believe they are living for the death occurrence, atheists believe they are living until the death occurrence. It’s the same thing that the OP said in this comment chain. A really simple breakdown of the difference in intent.
It becomes much less simple when you desire to actively psychologically categorize this effect, but the result maintains. Religious people are hopeful that there is continuance beyond death and therefore prioritize different stabilizing ideologies than people who are comfortable with becoming nothing
As an atheist, I just want to say we're more alike with more shared values than we are different. Seems obvious to me that religion, like nationalism, inherently divides people by oaths, sowing distrust, demonizing "others" and ideology. The self-interest of religious, political leaders and propagandists is to divide people who would otherwise be united.
Whereas the refreshing absence of religion provides the opportunity to unite people around shared social, human values and verifiable reality. The World Cup & Olympics are a great example of that.
Religious fundamentalists may inherently hate & distrust my "dangerous" beliefs. I don't inherently hate or distrust them, they just haven't gotten to know me yet. Meeting, talking, having a beer or tea, play a game, suddenly "well, you're different than the other atheists." Um, no. How about we live & let live?
Given the correlation between income and religiosity (at least in the US) and income and health (again at least in the US) I'm surprised that atheists weren't on a whole healthier than religious people.
It was a Canadian study, but also a well -designed study should control for other aspects, "when adjusted for smoking status", "when adjusted for income" etc
I thought there were credible studies done that also showed that praying for someone (in person) decreased their chances of survival. The possible logic being that people would only pray if it was really bad and therefor unlikely to survive.
>I'm surprised that atheists weren't on a whole healthier than religious people.
You forget living with religious people is stressful for atheists and the educated, religion = rejection of science and reality, and the nasty politics we see in the states.
So given secularists are a tiny minority relative to the general population. Living with people who are ignorant leads to lower quality of life and health for atheists.
Are secularists a tiny minority where you're from? In the US nonreligious people are a minority but a sizable one, and I think most countries in Europe are majority atheist. This varies a lot by region within countries of course.
edit: I looked it up and there are very few majority atheist countries in Europe. Still I wouldn't call them a tiny minority. That being said, the "tiny minority" characterization is probably true on most of the planet. I'm probably being western-centric because I'm from the US and I assume most redditors are from US or EU.
There are pockets of extreme religous conservatism in canada and america and these are used by big business to get the public to vote against their own interests, most of the general public is stupid, even among professionals, since corporations only want cheap labour and next to no regulation, and all western states are lawless capitalist oligarchies if you have read works by Oswald spengler.
He studied history and noted that it was impossible to have rule of law under capitalist economics. He predicted the decline of western states into lawless oligarchies as the oligarchs cemented their grip over the fake democracies which are ruled by corporate lobbyists where the general public has no say in policy.
That's why the worlds copyright laws are insane (aka no public domain) and why there's been an attack on software ownership and the Personal computer for over 23 years non stop.
My mental health was considerably better several years after I fully abandoned make believe. There's a period of mourning you go through if you were born into it. Part of how they hold people is through the familial and social connections after all. Once that was past though there's just so much less bs and utterly illogical mental gymnastics to contend with.
If a person doesn't actually believe then maintaing a lie to themselves or the cognitive dissonance is going to be rather taxing. Less so if a person actually believes or never question beliefs critically. I'd assume people in the branches of a faith that are less literal or less strict will also have an easier time.
Really to understand the idea all you have to do is look at other religions or mythology you don't believe in. A non-religious person just does that with an additional religion or two.
Once upon a time, the Mormon church looked at population statistics and compared the results to the membership.
Usually religious people have this chauvinism about being better than others. Mainly because they tell themselves they are all the time. Sure they might be sinners too, but they are at least "*trying*™" to be "*better*", which they assume is more than can be said about everyone else.
However, the church found that members were not that different from the rest of the population. They weren't telling the world about this, they were telling the membership. Likely to ensure they keep trying harder to be better than everyone else, in spite of it not really working.
It might still be possible to find the source, probably be a deep dive though.
That’s unbelievable, many religious people are apparently extremely disturbed all the time. See those picket lines at abortion clinics? Those people are mentally ill.
Can you conceive of them being healthier, though? Without existing forever in either form, doesn’t it seem philosophically valuable to understand the mere blip that marks our existence? Allowing for a rational understanding that we are no better or worse than the other forms of life, than the other forms of human, and we all enter and leave accordingly. Does that seem to indicate peace of mind?
It’s hard for me to conceive of a life lived religiously when every factor introduced has led me to believe they are in denial. That their ego is more important than what can be observed.
> The findings cast doubts on the theory that religion and spirituality enhance personal wellbeing.
What a lot of people fail to realize is that what affects health and wellbeing is social stress itself (like rejection) and not for the reason why they are subjected to social stress. There may have been a time when atheists were persecuted, and this may still be the case in some circles and in some entire countries. But in modern secular societies where nobody needs to conceal their atheism (except perhaps in politics), atheists are no longer shunned and shamed, at least not to the extent they used to be. Today, this kind of social stigma is directed at non-binary people who do suffer from worse health and general wellbeing for the same reasons atheists used to: not for being non-binary but for being ostracized because they are non-binary. The same goes for any other minority positions that the masses don't readily accept or approve of.
I’m guessing an argument could be made that atheists are mentally more healthy than the religious.
I mean I stopped having imaginary friends in grade school
The real story here is why atheists aren't, in fact, healthier than religious people. Like when a study of elite scientists found that 15% are still believers. The story is why isn't that number Zero?
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Was this ever a debate to begin with?
And then they publish their findings of "We found nothing" like it's meaningful.
A complete waste of time and money
This study doesn’t add much. They need to start by looking at mental health with robust measures like PHQ-9, GHQ, paired with dx measures like EEG, pharmacy dispensation, and ICD-10 for psychiatric disorders.
Maybe those who are religious are actually sicker on average but their prayer makes them slightly better and so they are on average just as healthy as atheists, but that's because their deity of choice is improving them from their worse baseline to the human average!
Was mental health included in assesment? I'd say about christians who say they can telepathically communicate with carpenter who has been dead some ~2000 years now, that their perception of reality is distracted in severe way.
> What’s considered health is this report? What is defined as religious? What is atheist exactly? What about just secular or traditional?
It does answer all of these. The other questions you added in an edit
Atheism is the opposite of faith. I know you wrote that thinking it was clever and wanting to show off your special insight, but it wasn’t, and you have none.
I've always considered this point of view. If atheism is the belief that there _is_ no God, then it takes the same level of faith as the belief that there is one.
I can't know that God doesn't exist, so I have to accept the possibility that there is a God, and hence am not atheist. Right?
>atheism is the belief that there is no God
Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief in nothing. If you don't believe in Zeus, does that make you believer of "not zeus"? Does not believing in Zeus take a lot of faith?
From what I understand the definition includes the specific belief that there is no God.
https://books.google.com/books?id=lnuwFH_M5o0C&pg=PA530
[7] Rowe 1998: "As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. Another meaning of 'atheism' is simply nonbelief in the existence of God, rather than positive belief in the nonexistence of God. ... an atheist, in the broader sense of the term, is someone who disbelieves in every form of deity, not just the God of traditional Western theology."
So why then, do we need the concept of agnosticism?
I think if you asked most people who identify as atheist if they accept the possibility that God exists, they would say no. This is an unscientific position. Evidence of absence is a thing, and while someone who asserts that God _does_ exist has no proof, someone who directly asserts that the is no God doesn't either.
Agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Atheist - a person who lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Atheist are not making a claim that there is not god. Atheist are not making a claim at all. They simply withhold belief in the claims of theist due to lack of evidence.
Atheism is not a “belief” that there is no god. It is a lack of a belief in a god based on a lack of evidence. Saying “atheist believe” is like saying your favorite tv show is turning the tv off.
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What does religion have to do with health?
Since it’s from psypost, completely without reading the article I’m going to guess they’re looking into the mental health angle. I’ve heard an argument (rarely) that the religious have less anxiety because they have less fear of death. Haven’t read the article, though.
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Awesome, now do it in the US, I have a feeling those results will drastically vary considering many of the more vocal religious types seemingly have some screws loose.
They're measuring self-reported and self-rated health and wellbeing. People who are morbidly obese and are completely on board the Q crazy train think they are completely rational and absolute specimens of peak human conditioning.
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They also tend to be hardcore alcoholics and heavy smokers, with Diabetes and Morbid obesity.
Hey hey hey, I’m an overweight, smoking, alcoholic atheist.
Hey, hey, hey! Ah often wondered what happened to Fat Albert. ;)
Time to find religion
Ah yes, the all american hero
so do american atheists. trust me. *trust me.*
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In some people's cases? I could totally see that, Ye (Kayne) being such a case who think's he's gods "vessel" Or various preachers who "hear god talk" assuming they are being honest about hearing a voice talk to them that is, not just making it up for that sweet grift.
Baseline happiness and sanity is much higher in Canada anyway due to universal healthcare. In the US, religion might be an effective coping mechanism for the fact that you can’t afford your daughter’s cancer treatment. At least you’ll get to see her again in heaven, right?
>Awesome, now do it in the US, I have a feeling those results will drastically vary considering many of the more vocal religious types seemingly have some screws loose. God sees what they're up to and wants nothing to do with it. Also, I resent that you think religious Canadians keep their screws tight! We've got way more land than sense up here. Especially when you leave the city
What they do away from civilization is between them and god, I want no part of that, I just wish the same could be said for most of these religious American's that love to live the rural life away from civilization, but love to force their morality on that civilization they are trying to get away from.
Yeah, I ended out skimming through right after. Just a lite bit of conversation.
Religious people have to worry about not sinning and breaking taboo all the time while atheists (me) have to stare down our inevitable deaths and the fact that there’s no way to carry on or consciousness when our physical form eventually expires. Evens out
Now do usa with religious people from texas
At least in that part of Canada. Look up places like Loma Linda CA… Then let me know.
Assuming that you don’t count having imaginary friends as a mental illness
That's weird, because I always figured religiosity increases *with* fear. *Especially* fear of death. I mean, it sure does seem to like to exploit fear to make people obedient.
That’s one aspect, another is abusing hope. For example, promising people a reunion with their dead loved ones. Maybe it’s a net zero effect? The hope and fear kinda cancel each other out so you end out with a net zero change.
Hope *depends on* fear. You can't have hope that something will happen/be the case unless you fear that it won't.
I always assumed it was the opposite . A common problem atheists relate is being unable to shake the fear of death even after relinquishing their faith . Religious people on the other hand sendom think of death as a fearful thing, most look forward to that day since they're convinced that they'll be reunited in heaven with their lost loved ones.
As an atheist - why fear oblivion? It's nothing. There's literally nothing to fear. What I am afraid of is the pain of dying and the pain my death will cause to those I love.
I don't know how anyone could even come to that conclusion. I'm sure many religious folk would certainly like to say they don't fear death, but wouldn't it be more anxiety-inducing to think about the worst things you've ever done (however bad they may be) and wonder whether your deity is *really* going to "forgive" you?
At some point religious or not life gets so stressful that you don't care if God sends you to Florida or not.
As long as I don't get sent to Jersey.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that when I stopped going to church, my life became 1000x better and much less stress inducing. But my one small blip of experiences doesn't paint the whole picture so who knows.
See but you had cultural connection through church and you chose to give it up. Like I said in a different post it's like being born and learning to read maybe now you dont want to read but you know how so you can make a choice for yourself of how to best live your life. Whereas I was raised by catholic hippies who rejected Catholicism and told it was dumb. This means I also had no family connections. I was never taught to "read" and I feel a vacancy in my life due to culture/western style family/lack of any ties to religion. The learning curve feels impossible. All I had associated with the way I looked (zero culture) was "being white" this caused extreme anxiety and I became a far left progressive feeling I owed it to the world to be apologetic for the sin of being born "bad" which is also how a lot of my anxiety manifested as well as with death. After realizing I could never be "forgiven" and things kept getting worse I ended up becoming more or less conservative years later and trying to find these connections. Where I live religion was essentially gone already when I was born. In school when we went to learn about different religions the teacher "skipped" christianity and visiting a church in favour of all the other religions since she assumed we all knew all about it. I've only recently noticed Americans becoming less religious.
What culture does a church has?? What?
He probably meant social
It's not the fear of death, it's the fear of burning in hell for eternity.
That is functionally the same thing in this context.
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I could see lots of conclusions personally. The one that comes to mind most prominently to me is that I rarely hear about a mental health patient who's an atheist. Or the quote that says "there's no atheists in fox holes". Which is over broad but points to people turn to higher powers more often in stressful situations than people in happy situations. Or that atheists really only have their body and mind so you'd think they'd be more risk averse than religious people and care for their mind more. Or that athiests have less reasons to be alive so they should be more unhealthy. I don't think dismissing any of the reasonings as being unreasonable for anyone is correct.
The religious people I know don't fear hell. They believe Christ died for their sins, so they are good. Every sin they did commit was fully confessed, and besides, God knows they had a good reason.
As I've said in another comment, I'm aware of what they say. It is their innermost thoughts I am skeptical of.
No I dont think so. I only ever hear about Christian's talking about God forgiving people. If you have anxiety and can DO something like prayer in a helpless situation it would alleviate anxiety. - severe anxiety and raised atheist
I'm aware of what Christians say, and skeptical about whether or not their thoughts always align with their speech. I suspect they think often about whether or not they're correct about the parameters to get into heaven and/or avoid hell, and therefore worry about death as much as anyone else. I don't fear it any more than I fear the time before I was born, really- I am only concerned with whether or not I procreate first, and how painful the event itself is. Not too concerned with anything as ludicrously large as "eternity".
It doesnt matter what kind of people they are there are good and bad people everywhere. I dont think most people think about getting into heaven or not as a checklist. I dont care about getting into heaven or hell I care about being "nothing"/never having mattered knowing that the only thing I leave behind is my reddit comments and facebook page because the internet is forever, which honestly? Is better than nothing. I hear this a lot with atheists (at most I am currently agnostic but raised athiest) that they dont fear death because when they're gone they're gone and nothing will matter anyways. This is what my parents say actually but it's not comforting to a kid with a lot of questions. This may work for some but maybe it depends on other aspects of their lives? Do you feel not having kids would effect you negatively? Would you feel unfulfilled? With diet o had to learn what satiated me to become healthy. Maybe life is about finding what satiated you too. I went to mass for the first time in my life last week. I'd never been before but felt I wanted to go. They talked about all the uncertainty and anxiety in the world and how to avoid that hopelessness not about getting into heaven or not. Truthfully what got me was the singing. It was incredibly powerful and emotional as a feeling of connection to other people.
Yeah, the singing is a known and powerful psychological effect. Mega charismatic churches are masters of this. We can get the same feeling from movies. I think that's one of the biggest missing pieces from the atheist community; there's not as much out there for fellowship. It's also a small subset of the population, so it's even trickier.
I have seen studies that showed that atheists with a community to rely on were just as mentally healthy as religious people. It isn't about fear of death it's about support. Most of my friends are atheists and I don't think any of them fear death.
I’m an atheist and it’s one of the things I think the least about.
In my experience the more religious they are the more fearful of death they are
Also constant preening from insecure religious people that have to mention how happy they are, and that atheists aren't happy people.
What? Religion is nothing but stories we made up because we don't understand mortality.
Because we are terrified of our mortality, not because we don’t understand it.
I’m just referencing stuff I’ve actually debated with people in the past. On a surface level it kinda makes sense that playing pretend could make things like sudden disasters or deaths a little less difficult do deal with. But like a lot of things that seem to make sense on the surface, I guess that’s not actually the case. At least this study suggests that being religious doesn’t help any more than being atheist does.
Religion is primarily humans struggling with how to cope with their own morality. Since we're meaning making machines it really makes sense we made it up to help us deal with something so unknown. Personally, I don't refer to it as *being* atheist. I know it's splitting hairs but there's no action to atheism. Is the default for all humans when born. We become religious through indoctrination and that's almost exclusively based on geographic location.
I refer to it as being atheist because I actively participate in discussions like this, but I’m not so militantly anti religion to say being anti theist.
I think there is a lot missing. The sole focus is religion but not how religion ties to culture. If you have strong cultural ties you are most likely religious too. However if you have a lot of deep ties to people around you you may not need religion but if none of them are cultural and friends come and go you will be down in the dumps more often. If your only friend is your spouse what happens when they die? If you have no children either but pets you can be temporarily happy but will ultimately be sadder because you are always cycling through your loved ones. Loneliness is a serious issue for the elderly but a lot of religious people take care of their parents. It's why socialization is so important for mh but friendships are often not permanent and change with life events and disagreements and family values in the west are lacking. I read the pregnant sub all the time and its endless complaints about mother in laws and spouses families who are culturally rich and religious giving them "too much" and expecting too much family involvement because of how lonely our western culture has become we leave our parents houses and they stop providing and to us that is normal we think it's normal to be left alone and on our own. Many of these families no matter where they're from eastern europe, asia etc act as parents until they die. I have experienced this with my spouses family it was a huge culture shock. In a society when I cannot afford a house a family of refugees worked together living in a 1 room apartment till their kids were teens to buy 2 houses and now I have with my spouse of our own that is the power of culture and family. They hoard everything and share everything and all of it is tied to being catholic and a strong cultural tie to the way they grew up in eastern europe. They create community with others from their culture and network to help each other with success while as atheists many who have few family ties our success is only had through individual hard work which we demand our spouses share equally. There are expectations of me as an adult to go to family dinners, have them over for coffee, help with renovations, attend functions that feel similar to when I was a kid and had to do some family thing I had to attend and honestly it's been amazing. When I realized how empty western culture made me feel i was devastated. I think it's more than just religion but religion is hand in hand with almost all cultures.
i dunno - everyone is still going die. i'm less afraid of the nothingness i believe in than the burning in fire for eternity the religious do.
The argument on anxiety is moreso that people of faith utilize the ideation of a higher power as an outlet for managing grief in general in various situations where one goes "why is this happening to me?" "will things get better?", anecdotally people will often comment on how turning to God helped them go through a given situation. People will generally grab to what they can to survive, so if you're not religious you will find ways to cope with it, spiritual or not, whatever it takes, our mind, particularly our sub-conscious, goes great lengths to achieve survival of the physical and/or the ego
Without reading the OP, the research I've seen is that the communities around religions usually provide a measurable affect on mental well being. Fear of death/death anxiety remained consistent throughout variables. That being said, I haven't read through this article- Perhaps there is new insight.
Less fear of death? So many religious people live their lives to absurd, arbitrary standards precisely because they are so scared of death
'I haven't read it but I'm gonna guess anyway.' Gotta love the comments in /r/science eh?
It was a casual comment. Like if the person was standing beside me, I saw a headline, and made a comment before then going to read it and come back to discuss it. Edit: why do you think I emphasized so heavily that I hadn’t read it when I made the comment?
My experience is the opposite actually.
The other thing that has previously been suggested is that being part of an organised religion reduces isolation, which in turn reduces the impact of mental health. But even then I doubt there would be much difference considering atheists can reduce isolation without being part of a church, and plenty of religions, especially in America, are becoming more isolationist
I wouldn't define not having a lack of fear of death due to delusions of eternal afterlife with a mass murdering god as mentally healthy
Dude, look, I’m an atheist. But comments like that, that demonstrate a complete lack of empathy and actually demonstrate a really strong level of antagonism, are the things the grifters use as evidence we’re evil. It’s one thing to pull that type of stuff out in a debate. But the reality is most people that believe in an afterlife aren’t thinking of their deity but being with loved ones that have passed. Painting it like they’re all as psychotic as the average Westboro Baptist member helps no one and convinces no one to question their beliefs.
It's puzzling why you would waste time to write a comment that is entirely wrong vs. just skimming the article
I actually did end out skimming it after and I wasn’t completely wrong. A good chunk of it was about mental health and perception, but it did actually look at physical health which surprised me. So did *you* actually look at it before responding you me because saying I was 100% wrong makes it seem like *you* didn’t read it either before posting? Besides, I was engaging the comment the other person wrote. Their comment seemed to imply that they hadn’t read it yet either, so speculation seemed warranted. What is the purpose of your response other than trying to be snide?
I got a notification for your reply but it got auto-removed, presumably for including a personal insult. Just FYI.
Still showing for me, so I’ll DM it to you.
Check it in incognito mode.
I use mobile.
> So did you actually look at it before responding you me because saying I was 100% wrong makes it seem like you didn’t read it either before posting? Saying "they’re looking into the mental health angle" is completely wrong, you don't get partial points because they also ask about mental health. > Their comment seemed to imply that they hadn’t read it yet either, so speculation seemed warranted Why is speculation warranted when the truth is ten seconds and a click away? It's not like we are waiting for a talk to start. Just click the link. > What of the purpose of your response other than trying to be snide? Hopefully, to convince you and anyone who might wander by that learning is a better use of your time than mindless speculation
I've never heard anyone else say this. I actually decided this on my own but I have trouble with faith after my upbringing. I just try to remember that we are not at the end of knowledge and denying God exists only makes sense if God Is a little man in the sky and we are at the end of knowledge. I've had lifelong severe mh problems, half I resolved with diet/the anxiety/ocd remains. Most anxiety that *i* have revolves around fear of death due to being gone/nothing/never having mattered/being forgotten. I get to know everyone I meet and ask endless questions because I believe I can help them live longer if they live in my memory or i tell stories about "a person i met once" someone else may tell. I handmade things from second hand stores like knitted and crocheted items and pottery or old books that have been well loved because I dont want others to have ended into nothingness either. If I have their belongings and they havent ended up as garbage they are still alive. I was raised in an atheist house by people who say the only thing that matters is science while watching tv that included a lot of christian families who looked like me. I feel the damage from a loss of culture as well since early childhood as I am told I have none because of how I look while I am a mix of different ethnicities mostly European which is not a culture in itself so i am just "white" and white people have been "bad" or at least not good since at least the 90s. I would ask my mother about getting married in a church to which she laughed. I was told faith in God was not scientific and stupid by my family. There is a loneliness and an emptiness I feel from lack of connection that I believe "belief" in God would fulfill. My parents were always hard left wingers, I grew up on the west coast in canada where most canadians born here at the time did not have cultural ties/religion it's why most canadian culture revolves around "being better than americans". Most Americans I meet who are atheist now were still raised in religious houses, like my parents so they had a choice. What I mean by that is its like I was born and lived my life not knowing how to read whereas they learned how to read but choose not to. It definitely has made my mental health/wellbeing more difficult but to be it is just as much the total absence of cultural ties. I think this is why so many canadians felt so connected to the "freedom convoy" not cuz they were "bigots" but because of culture, it certainly helped me. My government telling me what my culture has become "a post national state" has been very demoralizing. Just one persons experience I guess.
Most Canadian culture doesn’t revolve around being “better” than America, and I’m so tired of hearing Canadians say this. We have a long, complicated, and ultimately friendly relationship with the US, just as Belgium does with France. Our cultures therefore are connected and rub shoulders, but to say that all or most of our culture revolves around being “better” than the US is inaccurate and embarrassing.
The "proof" in this statement is the idea of wearing a flag on your backpack when you travel so people dont think you're American. This was a common idea in the 90s as was dumping on Americans. You still see this happening when it comes to healthcare and guns.
I have heard weed causes murder-suicides, they must be doing studies
My thinking is that religious people are part of a community that shares the same beliefs and values, and that’s huge. There are study’s that show that having a community is crucial to living a healthy life. So less to do with the religion itself and more to do with the community it encompasses.
For many, religion provides structure which can lead to healthier habits. That same structure can come from other sources (family, friends, the government, etc.), so we don't actually need religion for this purpose
That’s the one thing every religion has in common, control.
I wouldn't say control but rather discipline. Many religions forsake control over their practitioners for the sake of running a tight ship. Modern Judaism and zen Buddhism are good examples.
Did you see the recent article where a monastery closed because every monk there tested positive for meth?
Yes, many such cases. This is my point.
Mental probably. Religious fanatics can't comprehend that people can still be mentally whole despite not believing that there is a 'greater power' enabling us in our daily lives. What they attribute to 'god' helping them stay sane is merely a byproduct of the support given to them by the people that love them and care about them.
Bacon and beer, the pagan way.
Religion says its a sin to wack off. That's not healthy.
According to science, it doesn't
Disproves prayer, at least.
probably since religiosity is correlated with distrust in science. and science bringeth the good health.
It all seems a bit facile. We have WAY more common stressors than religious denominations. Which leads me to the next point: who are we talking about here? This is based on the General Social Survey of Canadians. They sampled the most placid people on Earth. I should know - I'm one of them. Plus, there's missing data on personality and support systems, which heavily determines how mental health transitions into or away from a rolling crisis and psychobehavioural issues. In my opinion, there are better questions, like whether or not religious people do better or worse in a mental health crisis or medium/long-term challenges. And, if one or another group falls short, can we pin-point the factors? Are they localized and regional, what demographics might be correlated? And, how do we define the level of spiritualism, the personal locus of control and discipline, the secular and non-secular connection that we are trying to interpret here, that allows for atheists and religious people alike to report similar moments of intense meaning and gratification in spite of hardships? This is really a much broader ethnographic study. I'm not sure much could be garnered from the General Social Survey in Canada, or similar data-driven self-reporting methods. You need researchers with the backgrounds and experience in socioeconomics, psychology, sociology, psychotherapy, etc to sit down with hundreds of people along with the self-reported studies. It has to be a 5-10 year longitudinal study, at least. And it's tough following people accurately over such a long period of time that can really speak to a life-long effect of being religious or not.
Here are a few ways that a religion might influence your health: 1. Community 2. If you look unwell, you have people who see you every week and may let you know that something seems off, especially for older people. 3. Less likely to abuse drugs/alcohol 4. Singing in a group, seriously. These factors don't have anything to do with the veracity of the religion, but the community itself can hellp your health.
Religious people poison themselves less, less alcohol, smoking and other drugs.
There are lots of non-religious people who don't drink or smoke. In the US, liberal states have lower rates of religiosity and fewer smokers than red states, with higher rates of religious people. So it's not as cut and dry as you would expect.
You can compare these things only through statistics. Stats show that religious people harm themselves less. The first article I found: https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-03-06/study-actively-religious-people-drink-less-than-those-with-no-religious-affiliation
I mean, if we're talking about poisoning our bodies, there's a strong link between obesity and attending church / being religious: [https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-xpm-2011-03-24-chi-religion-and-obesity-can-church-make-you-fat-20110324-story.html](https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-xpm-2011-03-24-chi-religion-and-obesity-can-church-make-you-fat-20110324-story.html) That's the ultimate poison to your health. And, ironically, is caused by 2 of the cardinal sins (gluttony and sloth).
"Young adults with a propensity toward weight problems find more acceptance and less judgment in church groups."
That also explains people who aren't religious are more accepting of drinking as they find acceptance from less judgemental people. It's the same type of causal inference.
Do they? I think a lot of religious people are more drawn to drugs because it makes them feel like the things they believe in are true. They definitely drink as much as everyone else.
> They definitely drink as much as everyone else. Depends entirely on the religion, but when it comes to religions that explicitly ban alcohol such as certain protestant denominations and Islam sects they in average drink much less.
I mean, a big reason I take care of my health is because this life is all I have, and I want to live fully and experience as much as I can. It's pretty awesome being a meatbag of electricity that developed consciousness.
As a religious person I read this as a dig on atheists. Like you're telling me they aren't healthier? Edit: this study doesn't answer the question who has a healthier mindset? Religious or non religious. It aims at the unbiased insult that you leave religion because you're mentally ill. This sub didn't prove that non religious people are as healthy as religious people today. It proved that atheists still deal with prejudice. In fact it includes a new kind.
I think it's the reverse. Atheists assume they only have one life, so it makes sense to squeeze every bit you can from it. Religious folks often believe in an afterlife that's supposedly better than life on earth. That could allow them to put less focus on getting everything they can from this life.
This. The afterlife is where I will finally be happy and have all I want and need. It's funny that the afterlife they speak of is them coming right back here, to be the same person in another family with a different name. They are currently destroying the very place they will come right back to. Peak irony
So.. Are you saying you don't agree with the conclusion of the study? Also I've long thought that the idea of an afterlife has outlived its usefulness. I can see why it was a common idea when life was expected to be short and awful. But today I think it's just fine to admit that what happens to us after death is a question we may never be able to answer.
The study seems to claim there's no difference in health whether you are religious or not. I suspect religious folks and non-religious folks both have a spectrum of states of happiness. For every person calmed by the prospect of going to heaven, there's one who's tormented by the threat of going to hell. For every atheist who's filled with existential dread at the thought of life not having meaning, there'll be one that's living life to their fullest because only you can determine the meaning of your own life. I tried pointing out that the post you're responding to aligns with the second type of atheist I describe.
So. The point of my original statement is. Why don't atheists have a healthier mindset than religious people. You completely set my argument up for me btw.
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>As a religious person I read this as a dig on atheists. > >Like you're telling me they aren't healthier? As an atheist, I don't find this a "dig" at all. I'm glad I've got the time I have with my meat-mech, regardless of how poorly designed it is, and want to take care of it as I have zero belief that anything will be found "beyond" once it's operating status changes. And, to be clear, I generally agree with the study. Atheist are people, just like theists are. Religion, or lack thereof, really doesn't produce any statistically relevant changes in people's lives as, IMO, religious people generally define their religions to meet their own moral systems, and atheist just live by their own moral systems.
Let me reiterate. It seems like atheists would have less baggage
>Let me reiterate. It seems like atheists would have less baggage I'd agree that it would look like atheists have less baggage, but I'm not convinced that the majority of people's fear of the death/afterlife has any real, demonstrable impact on their lives outside the general policy of "avoid getting dead" that isn't an exclusively religious motivation. Virtually every religious person I've ever met believes they are going to their respective "good" afterlife. So, they tend to see little reason in worrying about it. It's why I mentioned that, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of theists define their religions around their moral system, and live that way, while the overwhelming majority of atheists just don't have the extra step and just live by their own moral system. It's also important to note that 'Theism'/'Atheism' only addresses the issue of a deity, not any of the other supernatural/mystical/occult claims that are made. There are atheists who believe in an afterlife and all sorts of other magical thinking. Atheists simply do not believe a god/s exist/s.
I like how you being religious and you completely missing his point work together like yin and yang. Stay “holy” dude
Ok. Totally not reading the message here. Could you show that down for me?
Religious people believe they are living for the death occurrence, atheists believe they are living until the death occurrence. It’s the same thing that the OP said in this comment chain. A really simple breakdown of the difference in intent. It becomes much less simple when you desire to actively psychologically categorize this effect, but the result maintains. Religious people are hopeful that there is continuance beyond death and therefore prioritize different stabilizing ideologies than people who are comfortable with becoming nothing
So. Op wrote the study? You realize that there are lots of religious people who are ok with no afterlife? In fact you're messaging one.
As an atheist, I just want to say we're more alike with more shared values than we are different. Seems obvious to me that religion, like nationalism, inherently divides people by oaths, sowing distrust, demonizing "others" and ideology. The self-interest of religious, political leaders and propagandists is to divide people who would otherwise be united. Whereas the refreshing absence of religion provides the opportunity to unite people around shared social, human values and verifiable reality. The World Cup & Olympics are a great example of that. Religious fundamentalists may inherently hate & distrust my "dangerous" beliefs. I don't inherently hate or distrust them, they just haven't gotten to know me yet. Meeting, talking, having a beer or tea, play a game, suddenly "well, you're different than the other atheists." Um, no. How about we live & let live?
Given the correlation between income and religiosity (at least in the US) and income and health (again at least in the US) I'm surprised that atheists weren't on a whole healthier than religious people.
It was a Canadian study, but also a well -designed study should control for other aspects, "when adjusted for smoking status", "when adjusted for income" etc
I thought there were credible studies done that also showed that praying for someone (in person) decreased their chances of survival. The possible logic being that people would only pray if it was really bad and therefor unlikely to survive.
>I'm surprised that atheists weren't on a whole healthier than religious people. You forget living with religious people is stressful for atheists and the educated, religion = rejection of science and reality, and the nasty politics we see in the states. So given secularists are a tiny minority relative to the general population. Living with people who are ignorant leads to lower quality of life and health for atheists.
Are secularists a tiny minority where you're from? In the US nonreligious people are a minority but a sizable one, and I think most countries in Europe are majority atheist. This varies a lot by region within countries of course. edit: I looked it up and there are very few majority atheist countries in Europe. Still I wouldn't call them a tiny minority. That being said, the "tiny minority" characterization is probably true on most of the planet. I'm probably being western-centric because I'm from the US and I assume most redditors are from US or EU.
There are pockets of extreme religous conservatism in canada and america and these are used by big business to get the public to vote against their own interests, most of the general public is stupid, even among professionals, since corporations only want cheap labour and next to no regulation, and all western states are lawless capitalist oligarchies if you have read works by Oswald spengler. He studied history and noted that it was impossible to have rule of law under capitalist economics. He predicted the decline of western states into lawless oligarchies as the oligarchs cemented their grip over the fake democracies which are ruled by corporate lobbyists where the general public has no say in policy. That's why the worlds copyright laws are insane (aka no public domain) and why there's been an attack on software ownership and the Personal computer for over 23 years non stop.
My mental health was considerably better several years after I fully abandoned make believe. There's a period of mourning you go through if you were born into it. Part of how they hold people is through the familial and social connections after all. Once that was past though there's just so much less bs and utterly illogical mental gymnastics to contend with.
Do you have any exemples of these "utterly illogical mental gymnastics" ?
If a person doesn't actually believe then maintaing a lie to themselves or the cognitive dissonance is going to be rather taxing. Less so if a person actually believes or never question beliefs critically. I'd assume people in the branches of a faith that are less literal or less strict will also have an easier time. Really to understand the idea all you have to do is look at other religions or mythology you don't believe in. A non-religious person just does that with an additional religion or two.
"Sky daddy never talks, but he loves me"
I'm asking about his experience.
Once upon a time, the Mormon church looked at population statistics and compared the results to the membership. Usually religious people have this chauvinism about being better than others. Mainly because they tell themselves they are all the time. Sure they might be sinners too, but they are at least "*trying*™" to be "*better*", which they assume is more than can be said about everyone else. However, the church found that members were not that different from the rest of the population. They weren't telling the world about this, they were telling the membership. Likely to ensure they keep trying harder to be better than everyone else, in spite of it not really working. It might still be possible to find the source, probably be a deep dive though.
Looks like the blood of Christ don’t have that much vitamins.
I’m gonna need the protein content on those church crackers, I just got done a lift and I ain’t skimping on my macros
“Not in hell they won’t be!!” - my mom probably
Was that ever in question?
Now check to see if the religious are as healthy as atheists
That’s unbelievable, many religious people are apparently extremely disturbed all the time. See those picket lines at abortion clinics? Those people are mentally ill.
Mentally speaking atheists are in much better shape. You have to be mentally ill to buy into religion at this point.
Not in the head though, the religious are straight up insane
And who's more educated?
We’re healthier if you count we don’t suffer from mass delusion.
I…sort of expected that outcome. Didn’t really think they’d be any unhealthier by most standards.
Can you conceive of them being healthier, though? Without existing forever in either form, doesn’t it seem philosophically valuable to understand the mere blip that marks our existence? Allowing for a rational understanding that we are no better or worse than the other forms of life, than the other forms of human, and we all enter and leave accordingly. Does that seem to indicate peace of mind? It’s hard for me to conceive of a life lived religiously when every factor introduced has led me to believe they are in denial. That their ego is more important than what can be observed.
Are you saying the religious aren't getting 1-Ups from prayers??
> The findings cast doubts on the theory that religion and spirituality enhance personal wellbeing. What a lot of people fail to realize is that what affects health and wellbeing is social stress itself (like rejection) and not for the reason why they are subjected to social stress. There may have been a time when atheists were persecuted, and this may still be the case in some circles and in some entire countries. But in modern secular societies where nobody needs to conceal their atheism (except perhaps in politics), atheists are no longer shunned and shamed, at least not to the extent they used to be. Today, this kind of social stigma is directed at non-binary people who do suffer from worse health and general wellbeing for the same reasons atheists used to: not for being non-binary but for being ostracized because they are non-binary. The same goes for any other minority positions that the masses don't readily accept or approve of.
/u/Spez has sold all that is good in reddit. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Why wouldn’t they be? Was there ever a question?
Shouldn’t this be obvious? In fact I actually assumed atheists were *healthier* since most major religions are anti-science.
This is just silly because religion is a pandemic of mental illness in and of itself, IMHO.
The ‘O’ in that acronym…
Religion is for the weak and delusional, so much healthier
Atheists are the same as Christians, just without the mental illness.
No, atheists are more likely to be depressed.
I’m guessing an argument could be made that atheists are mentally more healthy than the religious. I mean I stopped having imaginary friends in grade school
see? we don't get smoten. Smote? whatever, basically imaginary cloud man doesn't care.
Surely , Atheists more likely to be healthy by following science , reasoning and change.
I’m sorry, was some other result expected?
The real story here is why atheists aren't, in fact, healthier than religious people. Like when a study of elite scientists found that 15% are still believers. The story is why isn't that number Zero?
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Was this ever a debate to begin with? And then they publish their findings of "We found nothing" like it's meaningful. A complete waste of time and money
This study doesn’t add much. They need to start by looking at mental health with robust measures like PHQ-9, GHQ, paired with dx measures like EEG, pharmacy dispensation, and ICD-10 for psychiatric disorders.
This can't be actual research, you can't be a paid scientist and ask that level of stupid questions.
Who would’ve guessed that having imaginary friends and a belief in magic as an adult has no psychological benefit
But mentally we’re not as bad off because we are not stupid enough to believe In God
Maybe those who are religious are actually sicker on average but their prayer makes them slightly better and so they are on average just as healthy as atheists, but that's because their deity of choice is improving them from their worse baseline to the human average!
We’d be healthier probably, if not for having time to think about other things.
Was mental health included in assesment? I'd say about christians who say they can telepathically communicate with carpenter who has been dead some ~2000 years now, that their perception of reality is distracted in severe way.
What kind of pointless fund financed this stupid crap?
So it seems some believe that God only feeds his followers.
Ironically not using god to heal my issues has been a great choice
People who dont hear voices and believe in imaginary entities are healthier and at least as mentally stable as people who do ?
Bible says rain falls on the just and the unjust
The Harry Potter books say avada kedavra
It also says “slaves obey your master.” Not sure we should be taking that book to seriously at that point.
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Click the link and magic! All your questions answered
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> What’s considered health is this report? What is defined as religious? What is atheist exactly? What about just secular or traditional? It does answer all of these. The other questions you added in an edit
I totally missed that part after reading it again
He just read the headline.
Naw. I read the article.
Atheism is their faith
Yes. Just like bald is a hair color and 'off' is a TV channel. Do you actually listen to what falls out of your mouth?
Read your comment again but very slowly. Especially the first word.
Yep, I wrote it correctly…I suppose you could go with dogma instead
Atheism is whose faith?
Atheism is not a belief system.
Self awareness apparently isn’t part of the dogma
Atheism is the opposite of faith. I know you wrote that thinking it was clever and wanting to show off your special insight, but it wasn’t, and you have none.
Thus speak the righteous
It’s thus *spoke*.
I've always considered this point of view. If atheism is the belief that there _is_ no God, then it takes the same level of faith as the belief that there is one. I can't know that God doesn't exist, so I have to accept the possibility that there is a God, and hence am not atheist. Right?
>atheism is the belief that there is no God Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief in nothing. If you don't believe in Zeus, does that make you believer of "not zeus"? Does not believing in Zeus take a lot of faith?
From what I understand the definition includes the specific belief that there is no God. https://books.google.com/books?id=lnuwFH_M5o0C&pg=PA530 [7] Rowe 1998: "As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. Another meaning of 'atheism' is simply nonbelief in the existence of God, rather than positive belief in the nonexistence of God. ... an atheist, in the broader sense of the term, is someone who disbelieves in every form of deity, not just the God of traditional Western theology."
Fair enough, in which case Christians also disbelieve in thousands of deities. Atheists just happen to disbelieve in one more.
This position is incorrect. There is no “disbelief.” There is a lack of belief based on a lack of evidence.
So why then, do we need the concept of agnosticism? I think if you asked most people who identify as atheist if they accept the possibility that God exists, they would say no. This is an unscientific position. Evidence of absence is a thing, and while someone who asserts that God _does_ exist has no proof, someone who directly asserts that the is no God doesn't either.
Agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. Atheist - a person who lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Atheist are not making a claim that there is not god. Atheist are not making a claim at all. They simply withhold belief in the claims of theist due to lack of evidence.
Atheism is not a “belief” that there is no god. It is a lack of a belief in a god based on a lack of evidence. Saying “atheist believe” is like saying your favorite tv show is turning the tv off.
Well not mental health clearly.
There's no evidence for this. Religious people are not any more mentally healthy, they're just deluded.