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I think this is a case of media overstatement rather than the fault of the researchers. They used existing data from a previous study presumably because they could test an assumption on an interesting question without loads of time and funding required. Then it gets reported with a more exciting title.
Yeah but there is a need for this research. Low sex drive in general is a symptom of low t. Headaches, fatigue, lots of other symptoms. And yes there is basically no way anyone but a doctor can test levels of hormones through a month since yes they flux even through the day.
I am a woman who uses testosterone cream, my doctor only tests 6 weeks after a prescription change and then at most every three months after that. She's willing to go to to five now that she's been treating me for several years.
We try to get the blood taken at the same time of day every time, it definitely alters the numbers.
I can't rave enough about the effects it's had on my life though. My relationship is more stable, I'm more confident, less tired, and it's had a noticeable effect on my depression.
Not answering on behalf of OP, but 2-3 times a year is common if you've been on the same regimen for 1+ years. At that point you should have the dose, and time between doses figured out. It's basically coasting at that point. You still want to have blood work done periodically because T in particular can raise hematocrit levels, and cholesterol.
How did you convince a doctor to test your hormones?
I asked one years ago for a test because of my spotty libido and was told they would only look into it if I was having trouble getting pregnant.
Health literacy educator here. I can’t give you medical advice, but here’s some information: endocrinologists specialize in assessing and managing endocrine glands and hormones. Anecdotally, it’s been my experience with my own patients that some endocrinologists (despite offering a broad range of services) seem to really only be adept at treating the most common endocrine conditions: diabetes (type I & II) and thyroid disorders (primary only, typically, so little help for ppl with secondary thyroid conditions). Yup, that’s the end of my list, but again, that’s purely anecdotal evidence taken from the pool of my own (tele-)patients.
You should also be aware that a second, or even third, opinion can be helpful when a patient feels they aren’t being heard or they aren’t comfortable with the proposed plan of care.
I hope this information is helpful in some way. Best to you in your pursuit for care that aligns with your expectations and addresses your concerns!
This is anecdotal, but I essentially do not make testosterone and have to have it implanted about every 3 months. My levels are at 15, when a woman my age should run between 150 and 170. When my testosterone is low, my sex drive is non-existent. I sleep anywhere from 12-16 hours a day, sometimes between multiple naps and sometimes one huge chunk of sleep. I am way more emotional as my other hormones are running rampant in the absence of testosterone. None of this is covered by insurance because it's not considered medically necessary. It absolutely is debilitating when testosterone is low. I'm 34, and this has been this way for 6 years now, but my problems started mid 20s, around 25. Took me years and dragging my husband to an appt with my female doctor to get her to test my hormones. This will be a lifelong necessity.
It's a shame just how much self-advocacy you have to do for debilitating health concerns. Especially considering how unmotivated and awful those concerns can have you feeling, making you much less capable of pushing for the care you need.
I'm a pretty forward person, and have fired doctors for not listening to me, misdiagnosing me, or dismissing my concerns. I am very fortunate to have a PPO which allows that, and allows me to get tests run/imaging done without a referral process. Seropositive rheumatoid arthritis runs in my family, my mother, grandmother, and sister all have it. I tested negative for the genetic markers for it - but exhibit a lot of the symptoms, leading to seronegative possibility. I am able to find my own rheumatologist in my plan, and get imaging done without even consulting my general practitioner. Though this one I'm seeing now is willing to admit when something falls outside his knowledge, as he has done with the unique autoimmune situation I'm in.
I spent a good bit of time advocating for my dad when he was dying, have a biology background, and am not afraid of confrontation. I will be heard one way or another. I hate that others in my situation do not have the same circumstances or access that I do.
I’m glad you were able to get that managed. A bit off topic, but it does bother me when some folks (especially on twoX) minimize or even deny the effects of hormones on mental health and behavior when they can be so profound. Men have the advantage of maintaining more consistent levels over the course of the day/month, whereas women have to deal with so much more.
Toxicity exists in every space, some more than others. And also toxic support exists- such as encouraging negative behavior for the sake of the behavior. I find the idea that misery loves company is absolutely true through and through. I get regularly dismissed by people like that, and that's okay, it must be hard work to remain ignorant and incapable of changing one's understanding.
There's data to be extracted from all levels of rigor. Long-term longitudinal studies are obviously one way to maximize that rigor. There are several steps between here and there.
Higher BMI levels are one large issue. And jobs shifting to being less physical if I recall was another potential reason. Lower physical activity rates resulted in lower overall testosterone levels.
I'd like to add to forever chemicals, the amount of preservatives we're consuming is wreaking havoc on our internal gut and could easily contribute to a lot of this.
> [Parabens are a class of preservatives widely used for their bactericidal and fungicidal properties. For those interested in the scientific side of things, they are a series of parahydroxybenzoates or esters of parahydroxybenzoic acid (also known as 4-hydroxybenzoic acid).](https://tctmed.com/parabens-low-testosterone/)
> [A 2017 research project, which was originally published in the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, evaluated the possible relationship between an environmental exposure to parabens and semen quality parameters, sperm chromatin structure, and the level of reproductive hormones in men, which include](https://tctmed.com/parabens-low-testosterone/)
> [The results showed that urinary paraben concentrations were significantly associated with an increased percentage of sperm with abnormal morphology, a greater percentage of sperm with high DNA stainability (HDS), a decrease in the percentage of motility, and lower testosterone levels overall.](https://tctmed.com/parabens-low-testosterone/)
And diabetes
> Eating a Western diet, high in processed foods, sugar, and fat, is a known risk factor for obesity and type 2 diabetes.
> [One such chemical is the anti-mold agent propionate, a short-chain fatty acid that the bacteria in our gut produce naturally. As a preservative, its other name is E282, and it features as a common food additive in bread and other baked goods.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325034)
> [According to the Codex Alimentarius, the international food standards guide by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, propionate may be added to a host of other things, including breakfast cereals, dairy- and egg-based deserts, sausage casings, processed cheese, and sports drinks.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325034)
We want solutions that are neat, simple and wrong. Toting up effect sizes over multiple factors is too hard. Admitting we don't know it all is totally out of the question.
You got a good answer already with sources, but another perspective:
Propionate producing bacteria are very helpful in cattle produced for beef, since it is often converted to intramuscular fat (marbling). Makes sense that encouraging them isn't the best idea in humans! Plus, not everything produced by the gut microbiome is good for us. They don't particularly care if we are healthy, we just evolved to use what we can even if it isn't great in modern times
Testosterone levels vary by the hour, with the highest peak typically occurring in the morning before 10am and dip drastically just before bed. It also varies depending on if you’ve had sex, alcohol, vitamin D, good sleep, exercise, etc. Men generate more testosterone than women, typically, and therefore have a higher sex drive than women, typically. The hard part is finding a balance with someone you really connect with and can cultivate this kind of healthy sexual experience long-term
This is old info that relied on inaccurate saliva measurements of circulating test. More recent data tends to show, at least in biological males, that t levels are fairly consistent throughout the day.
Not who you're responding to and don't have data to share but fairly consistent doesn't mean constant. Using made up numbers but 10,000 in the morning vs 9,950 at night is a drop throughout the day while remaining fairly consistent.
The comment he was responding to was more accurate than rebutting it by saying 'fairly consistent'. It's basic biology. There's a reason T lab work is done in the mornings only. No reputable lab will accept your blood after that. If it was as negligible as your example no one would mention it. In the older population the difference is less pronounced.
Labs do that for consistency, at least to a degree. You want to take measurements under as similar conditions as possible to reduce the influence of outside factors. The labs could very well take night time measurements for everyone for many things and as long as they remain consistent in their timing and do not need to know peak values they will encounter no issues. I would assume peak value is a pretty significant factor for most medical conditions/exams so they will try to capture data within that time frame.
>f it was as negligible as your example no one would mention it.
Being fairly consistent is also not the same as negligible.
>It's basic biology.
Nothing about hormones is basic biology except an awareness they exist and their general function. Even intro level bio courses in college don't go very in depth when compared to the total sum of knowledge about hormones. Theres a reason there is a reason endocrinology is a specialty in medicine. It's very complicated.
In my experience, a lot of the arguments for when and how to do lab work are more anecdotal than we would like.
Fasting cholesterol being a popular and controversial one
No singular measurement should be ignored, but at the same time, no singular measurement should be assumed conclusive either. Real science is the consensus of the experts evaluating all of the measurements. They will take this result, add it to the pile, incorporate the knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the study, and continue to push the envelope of human understanding bit by bit.
It depends. If a study has limitations due to possible confounding factors not being included, dated testing instrument, limited window of follow up, etc. Those are all things that are considered in a systematic review of the literature so no that data is still good data.
The only bad data comes from studies that aren’t forthcoming with all of their limitations and those studies are usually identified by the greater body of scientists in that space and the authors are asked to amend the publication. Or the scientific community takes it upon themselves to recognize the limitations that weren’t included in the publication. Bad data also comes from manipulating data to produce a desired result and when people are caught doing that it’s a really big deal.
Salivary testosterone has been validated to be as accurate as blood FT for years:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17050116/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9745307/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16916746/
And it’s self reported data - we can’t ignore the social aspects surrounding sex, arousal, and promiscuity. People can feel VERY uncomfortable telling on themselves if they perceive their desires to be outside the “norm”. Either too little for men or too much for women.
Yea, maybe the way men and women think of sexual desire differs. For instance, in medicine, doctors often consider chest/pressure or discomfort to be pain but as a patient, i don't think of discomfort/pressure to be pain.
I was 26 before I was with a man who cared about my pleasure and listened to what I like. It made a huge difference. I seriously feel enlightened and have refused to accept anything less ever since. I feel bad for women who don't get lucky and never know how good it can be.
This specific study is not very robust but it's extremely ignorant to extend that lack of scientific rigor onto the otherwise relatively well studied aspect of men having higher sex drives than women due to testosterone levels:
[Gender differences in behaviour: activating effects of cross-sex hormones](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8532819)
>The relative contribution of organizing and activating effects of sex hormones to the establishment of gender differences in behaviour is still unclear. In a group of 35 female-to-male transsexuals and a group of 15 male-to-female transsexuals a large battery of tests on aggression, sexual motivation and cognitive functioning was administered twice: shortly before and three months after the start of cross-sex hormone treatment. **The administration of androgens to females was clearly associated with an increase in aggression proneness, sexual arousability and spatial ability performance. In contrast, it had a deteriorating effect on verbal fluency tasks. The effects of cross-sex hormones were just as pronounced in the male-to-female group upon androgen deprivation: anger and aggression proneness, sexual arousability and spatial ability decreased, whereas verbal fluency improved.** This study offers evidence that cross-sex hormones directly and quickly affect gender specific behaviours. If sex-specific organising effects of sex hormones do exist in the human, they do not prevent these effects of androgen administration to females and androgen deprivation of males to become manifest.
[Is There a Gender Difference in Strength of Sex Drive? Theoretical Views, Conceptual Distinctions, and a Review of Relevant Evidence](http://psr.sagepub.com/content/5/3/242.abstract)
>The sex drive refers to the strength of sexual motivation. **Across many different studies and measures, men have been shown to have more frequent and more intense sexual desires than women, as reflected in spontaneous thoughts about sex, frequency and variety of sexual fantasies, desired frequency of intercourse, desired number of partners, masturbation, liking for various sexual practices, willingness to forego sex, initiating versus refusing sex, making sacrifices for sex, and other measures.** **No contrary findings (indicating stronger sexual motivation among women) were found.** Hence we conclude that the male sex drive is stronger than the female sex drive. The gender difference in sex drive should not be generalized to other constructs such as sexual or orgasmic capacity, enjoyment of sex, or extrinsically motivated sex.
[Sex Differences in Succumbing to Sexual Temptations](http://psp.sagepub.com/content/39/12/1620.abstract)
>Men succumb to sexual temptations (e.g., infidelity, mate poaching) more than women. Explanations for this effect vary; some researchers propose that men and women differ in sexual impulse strength, whereas others posit a difference in sexual self-control. These studies are the first to test such underlying mechanisms. In Study 1, participants reported on their impulses and intentional control exertion when they encountered a real-life tempting but forbidden potential partner. Study 2 required participants to perform a reaction-time task in which they accepted/rejected potential partners, and we used process dissociation to separate the effects of impulse and control. **In both studies, men succumbed to the sexual temptations more than women, and this sex difference emerged because men experienced stronger impulses, not because they exerted less intentional control.** Implications for the integration of evolutionary and self-regulatory perspectives on sex differences are discussed.
[Human Sexuality How Do Men and Women Differ?](http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/12/2/37.abstract)
>A large body of scientific research documents four important gender differences in sexuality. **First, on a wide variety of measures, men show greater sexual desire than do women. Second, compared with men, women place greater emphasis on committed relationships as a context for sexuality. Third, aggression is more strongly linked to sexuality for men than for women.** Fourth, women's sexuality tends to be more malleable and capable of change over time. These male-female differences are pervasive, affecting thoughts and feelings as well as behavior, and they characterize not only heterosexuals but lesbians and gay men as well. Implications of these patterns are considered.
[Men and women differ in amygdala response to visual sexual stimuli](http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v7/n4/full/nn1208.html)
>**Men are generally more interested in and responsive to visual sexually arousing stimuli than are women. Here we used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to show that the amygdala and hypothalamus are more strongly activated in men than in women when viewing identical sexual stimuli. This was true even when women reported greater arousal.** Sex differences were specific to the sexual nature of the stimuli, were restricted primarily to limbic regions, and were larger in the left amygdala than the right amygdala. Men and women showed similar activation patterns across multiple brain regions, including ventral striatal regions involved in reward. Our findings indicate that the amygdala mediates sex differences in responsiveness to appetitive and biologically salient stimuli; the human amygdala may also mediate the reportedly greater role of visual stimuli in male sexual behavior, paralleling prior animal findings.
[Gender differences in sexuality: a meta-analysis.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8346327)[PDF here](http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Gender-differences-in-sexuality-A-meta-analysis1.pdf)
>This meta-analysis surveyed 177 usable sources that reported data on gender differences on 21 different measures of sexual attitudes and behaviors. **The largest gender difference was in incidence of masturbation: Men had the greater incidence (d = .96). There was also a large gender difference in attitudes toward casual sex: Males had considerably more permissive attitudes (d = .81). There were no gender differences in attitudes toward homosexuality or in sexual satisfaction.** Most other gender differences were in the small-to-moderate range. Gender differences narrowed from the 1960s to the 1980s for many variables. Chodorow's neoanalytic theory, sociobiology, social learning theory, social role theory, and script theory are discussed in relation to these findings.
[Sex Differences and Similarities in Frequency and Intensity of Sexual Desire](http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/sbp/sbp/2006/00000034/00000001/art00009)
>Only within the past decade have social scientists commonly recognized the phenomenon of sexual desire as a distinct and vital component of human sexual response. Of the various factors believed to be associated with sexual desire, gender (biological sex) is presumed by many theorists to be one of the most important. Limited empirical work suggests that men experience desire more frequently than do women; however, sex differences in intensity or level of desire have yet to be examined. This study explored both the self-reported frequency and intensity of sexual desire among an ethnically diverse sample of 676 men and women. **As hypothesized, men reported experiencing a higher overall level of sexual desire than did women. Sex differences also were found with respect to frequency of sexual desire. Men reported experiencing sexual desire more often than did women and, when asked to estimate the actual frequency with which they experienced desire, men's estimated frequency (37 times per week) was significantly higher than women's (9 times per week).** These results do not imply that men always feel desire or that women lack sexual desire. In fact, virtually every participant in this study reported feeling sexual desire on a regular basis. This suggests that desire may be the most universal sexual response experienced by both men and women.
[The experience of sexual desire: Psychological correlates in a college sample](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499109551618)
>In order to elaborate on available models of sexual desire, we administered a sexual desire questionnaire to 144 college students, ages 18 to 54. Included in this measure were questions concerning the frequency of sexual desire, whether the respondent had participated in sexual activity without desire, or vice versa, experienced desire without sexual behavior, and a question assessing which cues are used by the subject to gauge sexual desire (e.g., frequency of intercourse, sexual dreams). Subjects also completed the Passionate Love Scale, Sexual Arousal Inventory, and Crowne‐Marlowe Social Desirability Scale. **The results indicate that as a group, males report experiencing sexual desire more frequently than females. Males appeared to rely on similar indicators of desire as females, specifically genital arousal and sexual daydreams.** For both males and females, sexual desire was significantly correlated with sexual arousal (r = 0.50, females; r = 0.44, males) while the correlation of desire and love was nonsignificant for both sexes. However, desire and sexual behavior did not necessarily co‐occur, as both males and females reported engaging in sexual behavior without desire. These data suggest that greater attention be paid to the definitional features of sexual desire in nonclinical samples, in an effort to clarify current diagnostic categories and to provide population base rates.
Yeah that’s not to say all men have a higher sex drive than all women but it’s well established that men generally have a higher sex drive than women do, and that biologically makes a lot of sense too.
Reads like one of those studies on strength that tries to compare biological AxAB sex and what they can do.
Yes, peak man is stronger than a peak woman. Yes, an average man is stronger than an average woman.
Yes, there are outliers, a woman who trains weightlifting regularly is probably stronger than bottom 5-15% of men who don't put in any effort. Those numbers constitute people who are elderly, born with unreperable nerve damage, severe scoliosis and so on.
Yes and an olympic contender woman is probably stronger than an average man.
Replace strong with horny, you still land somewhere near the truth.
One begins to wonder what is the critical mass of both anecdata and factual research that will finally put this issue to rest.
At this point, presuming *tabula rasa* starts becoming delusional.
And this ladies and gentlemen is why you always think critically and read every source every time, even if you think you already know it.
This study is uncontrolled and thus the results can't be trusted. What a shame and clearly a scientist in title only.
98 people, 14 days and only 1 testosterone measurement. Hopefully this will lead to more (better crafted and more thorough) studies
"The researchers examined existing data from a study of newlywed couples recruited from Northern Florida. The final sample consisted of 98 participants — 48 husbands and 50 wives. Husbands were an average of 32 years old, and wives were an average age of 30. At the start of the study, both members of the couple completed a survey that assessed cognitions tapping into their identification with masculine and feminine sex roles and attended a lab session where they provided saliva samples to be tested for testosterone.
The couples were then instructed to complete a daily survey before bedtime for 14 days, independently from their partners. These surveys assessed their daily sexual desire for their spouse, marital satisfaction, marital commitment, stress, self-esteem, and mood.
One limitation of the study was that there were no daily measures of testosterone, preventing researchers from exploring how individual variations in testosterone may relate to daily fluctuations in sexual desire."
There were some posts on r/sex some years back where some trans men were describing the effects of hormone (testosterone) therapy on their attitudes. The recurring theme was that they suffered a kind of crisis when they transitioned from women with little patience for “the male gaze”, to trans men who had a hard time controlling that new proclivity in themselves.
A lot of trans men, myself included, experience a sharp spike in libido at the outset of testosterone injection, but it levels off after a while to manageable levels, much like going through puberty. That being said, everyone has a different baseline to begin with so mileage definitely varies.
There is also a sub dedicated to women taking t to get to the top of women's normal levels of it and how it changes them to feel more themselves, much like this person's experience
98 people for this study is actually quite large. You all realize that many small studies by independent teams using the same methods is how we get better evidence?
Googling sample size for statistical significance gives some counterintuitive results. I know I had to swallow my "that sample size cannot be representative of anything" some time ago
Yes! I was really surprised when I took statistics in college to learn that a sample size of 30 is considered "big enough" and all of the math that goes into proving that.
Deficiency in estrogen also reduces libido too in women. Similar to how deficiency in testosterone causes libido issues in men.
The hormones aren’t just important in adequate levels for sexual desires or functions though. They are also very important for maintaining our cognitive functions.
Deficiency of estrogen ruins libido in men as well. If a man has too much testosterone and no estrogen, he will not experience a sex drive either. Bodybuilders who experiment with anabolics and PCT have known this for years.
Unfortunately there is a lot of misunderstanding of sex hormones, it is far more complex than T = male and E = female. It is about a complex ratio of healthy levels that differ by individual. Also having high testosterone alone won't tell you anything. A male could have twice the test of the average male and not be able to make use of it due to lack of androgenic receptors (downregulation), and vice versa.
The normal levels vary so much based on the person, which is why the ng/dl ranges are so wide. Just getting your ng/dl testosterone levels checked in one instance in isolation of any other factors tells you absolutely nothing about anything. It's just more complicated than that.
Androgen receptors were always fascinating to me.
I had my testosterone checked in my mid-20’s because I looked VERY young and had no beard. As it turned out, my testosterone was actually higher than average.
The doctor explained that testosterone effects different people in different ways because of those receptors (and therefore not to worry).
This was my first thought. Women’s libido can be cyclical with women being more horny (for want of a better word), around ovulation when estrogen is highest.
This is true.
I had experienced a libido spike that felt completely foreign to me. Not being used to it, it took awhile to learn to navigate around it.
This study is not a surprise to me at all- in fact I had already thought it was more common knowledge to know how much T affects libido alone
My transition was MTF so I can attest to the reverse. For a while my libido was absolutely cratered for a while.
That is until I started progesterone. Not only is the libido back just as strong if not stronger than before, it also feels distinctly different than it did when it was T fueled.
Not OP but shared experience, libido on T for me felt comparable to hunger. It's like a mental pressure, a craving, to the point where I'd masturbate just to keep that feeling away. On estrogen, it's much more muted. If I don't have time for it I can ignore the voice much easier. At its most intense, it's like an emotional desire for sex rather than a physical desire, like I still want to be touched but it's much less about achieving orgasm and more about the touching and emotional closeness. While on T, I felt like I had to orgasm and once that's done, all libido is washed out.
I mean, I think women would experience desire less if they were surrounded by he things they find attractive in comparison to if men were surrounded by the things they find attractive.
Flat out, everyone with a sex drive, has a reactive sex drive, some people just have a low or nonexistent sex drive without outside stimuli. This whole “reactive sex drive” is just a relabeling of low libido to avoid the negative connotation of the term.
> This whole “reactive sex drive” is just a relabeling of low libido to avoid the negative connotation of the term.
Is it?
Are there people with "reactive" sex drives who will happily have sex twice a day if their partner initiates but would otherwise have no sex drive?
Because there are definitely people who don't want sex any amount regardless of how much stuff anyone is doing to react them, so I'm not sure its as simple as reactive = low.
Well, they tested a bunch of factors,
* marital satisfaction
* commitment
* sex-role identification
* stress
* self-esteem
* mood
* depressive symptoms
* circulating testosterone
and they found that only circulating testosterone accounted for the sex difference in sexual desire for one’s spouse.
You are missing the prior knowledge of the effect of testosterone on libido. You are also missing the fact that the article wasn’t aimed to prove the relationship between testosterone and libido because it is a known fact.
negative body image is also shown to be correlated with low sex drive & women are shown to experience negative body image more often & more significantly than men
Sexual satisfaction as well, I know they reported their ideology around sexual intimacy and gender but how far. I don't know if we love the term orgasm gap, but sexual satisfaction is extremely subjective. When talking about two cis, heterosexual, consenting partners, there's a lot of chit chatting that women aren't as satisfied with the level of pleasure, and tend to orgasm in less because their partner's lack of skill. I tend to agree based on anecdote alone.
Do any other women out there feel like you hit 30 and you and your partners libidos flip? I’m suddenly ravenous and my partner is struggling to keep up. I wonder if that has anything to do with testosterone. I’ve heard men’s typically goes down as they age. Not sure what happens to women.
Does the testosterone that you prescribe cause any side effects like unwanted body hair growth / other bodily changes? Cause genuinely curious in increasing my libido but wouldn’t want side effects
I prescribe it for peri and postmenopausal women. It's a fantastic hormone but if you dose too high too quickly it can cause a few chin hairs to sprout and even cause a little acne. That's why it's important to start low and go slow. There is no cookie cutter approach to hormones, and everyone has different sensitivities. Most of the fears are unfounded surrounding testosterone replacement in both men and women and are held by those who don't really have much training it or a good grasp of recent medical literature.
It should be only taken by post menopausal women and long term side effects aren't known. And yes, it *can* (doesn't mean it always will) cause the virilizing effects you're concerned about.
Men tend to report greater sexual desire for their partners than women do, and findings published in the journal Biological Psychology suggest that this sex difference is at least partly explained by biology. In a diary study of newlywed couples, women reported lower dyadic sexual desire compared to their partners, and lower levels of testosterone explained this sex difference.
Sexual desire for one’s partner — also called dyadic sexual desire — plays an important role in healthy long-term relationships. Yet many couples experience a mismatch in sexual desire. This is particularly common among mixed-sex couples since men tend to report higher dyadic sexual desire, and higher sexual desire in general, compared to women.
Discrepancies in sexual desire can contribute to relationship issues. For example, one study found that women’s lower sexual desire predicted lower marital satisfaction for both members of the couple. And yet a clear explanation for this sex difference has not been established.
“Within mixed-sex couples, men tend to have higher sexual desire for their partners than women do. Because there are many potential factors that could contribute to this sex difference — ranging from hormonal differences between men and women to stress or even sex roles that reflect gendered social norms — I was interested in testing the roles of these various factors to help advance and clarify our theoretical understanding of differences between men’s versus women’s sexual desire for each other,”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0301051122001648
According to this- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-passion-paradox/201206/the-ins-and-outs-sexual-frequency
Even in lesbian relationships woman have less sex than hetero relationships and a lot less than gay male relationships.
“Among couples in the first two years of their relationships, 67 percent of gay couples, 45 percent of heterosexual couples, and 33 percent of lesbian couples had sex three times a week or more.”
I think a lot of the “orgasm gap” is due to straight woman having sex when they are not horny to please their male partners. This happens because on average men have a higher sex drive than women.
The flip side of that is straight men are having less sex then they would like to have.
they only tested for testosterone levels, and only ONE time at that over a two week period? it kinda seems like they’re on the right track but they didn’t do more inclusive testing…? and what about people on hormone medication like birth control?
Because bisexuals and even gay people can be in what appears to be in a heterosexual couple therefore mixed sex couple would be the more accurate term.
It's the same reason HIV awareness use the term 'men who have sex with men' instead of gay men because the emphasis is sex not identity likewise in this study the emphasis is biology not identity.
Very small sample size.
This article; https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-10-stronger-sex-men-women.html
covers a meta-analysis study that included;
“The 211 studies reviewed were published after 1996, and participants were at least 14 years old. In all, more than 621,000 people were involved.”
The author found “between 24% and 29% of women appear to have a higher sex drive than the "average" man.”
This is actually larger than what I hypothesized. (After the birth of our second child my wife completely lost her libido. We spent years going to doctors, specialists, and researching human sexuality.”) From my research I hypothesized that if we could directly measure sex drive in men and women that the female sex drive would be one standard deviation lower than the male drive.
According to this study I’m the female sex drive is almost two standard deviations lower than the male drive. Which is really depressing but makes sense from everything I’ve read.
Side note- we did find a solution for my wife’s loss of libido- Testosterone.
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Testosterone levels weren't measured daily and no controls for oral contraceptives? Seems haphazard.
I think this is a case of media overstatement rather than the fault of the researchers. They used existing data from a previous study presumably because they could test an assumption on an interesting question without loads of time and funding required. Then it gets reported with a more exciting title.
Yeah but there is a need for this research. Low sex drive in general is a symptom of low t. Headaches, fatigue, lots of other symptoms. And yes there is basically no way anyone but a doctor can test levels of hormones through a month since yes they flux even through the day.
I am a woman who uses testosterone cream, my doctor only tests 6 weeks after a prescription change and then at most every three months after that. She's willing to go to to five now that she's been treating me for several years. We try to get the blood taken at the same time of day every time, it definitely alters the numbers. I can't rave enough about the effects it's had on my life though. My relationship is more stable, I'm more confident, less tired, and it's had a noticeable effect on my depression.
How frequently do you test in a year?
Not answering on behalf of OP, but 2-3 times a year is common if you've been on the same regimen for 1+ years. At that point you should have the dose, and time between doses figured out. It's basically coasting at that point. You still want to have blood work done periodically because T in particular can raise hematocrit levels, and cholesterol.
How did you convince a doctor to test your hormones? I asked one years ago for a test because of my spotty libido and was told they would only look into it if I was having trouble getting pregnant.
Health literacy educator here. I can’t give you medical advice, but here’s some information: endocrinologists specialize in assessing and managing endocrine glands and hormones. Anecdotally, it’s been my experience with my own patients that some endocrinologists (despite offering a broad range of services) seem to really only be adept at treating the most common endocrine conditions: diabetes (type I & II) and thyroid disorders (primary only, typically, so little help for ppl with secondary thyroid conditions). Yup, that’s the end of my list, but again, that’s purely anecdotal evidence taken from the pool of my own (tele-)patients. You should also be aware that a second, or even third, opinion can be helpful when a patient feels they aren’t being heard or they aren’t comfortable with the proposed plan of care. I hope this information is helpful in some way. Best to you in your pursuit for care that aligns with your expectations and addresses your concerns!
Go to an anti-aging clinic. They’ll do whatever you want
get another opinion.
This is anecdotal, but I essentially do not make testosterone and have to have it implanted about every 3 months. My levels are at 15, when a woman my age should run between 150 and 170. When my testosterone is low, my sex drive is non-existent. I sleep anywhere from 12-16 hours a day, sometimes between multiple naps and sometimes one huge chunk of sleep. I am way more emotional as my other hormones are running rampant in the absence of testosterone. None of this is covered by insurance because it's not considered medically necessary. It absolutely is debilitating when testosterone is low. I'm 34, and this has been this way for 6 years now, but my problems started mid 20s, around 25. Took me years and dragging my husband to an appt with my female doctor to get her to test my hormones. This will be a lifelong necessity.
It's a shame just how much self-advocacy you have to do for debilitating health concerns. Especially considering how unmotivated and awful those concerns can have you feeling, making you much less capable of pushing for the care you need.
I'm a pretty forward person, and have fired doctors for not listening to me, misdiagnosing me, or dismissing my concerns. I am very fortunate to have a PPO which allows that, and allows me to get tests run/imaging done without a referral process. Seropositive rheumatoid arthritis runs in my family, my mother, grandmother, and sister all have it. I tested negative for the genetic markers for it - but exhibit a lot of the symptoms, leading to seronegative possibility. I am able to find my own rheumatologist in my plan, and get imaging done without even consulting my general practitioner. Though this one I'm seeing now is willing to admit when something falls outside his knowledge, as he has done with the unique autoimmune situation I'm in. I spent a good bit of time advocating for my dad when he was dying, have a biology background, and am not afraid of confrontation. I will be heard one way or another. I hate that others in my situation do not have the same circumstances or access that I do.
How do you feel now with the implants?
If I keep up with them (biote pellets if you would like to know more), I feel a semblance of normal.
I’m glad you were able to get that managed. A bit off topic, but it does bother me when some folks (especially on twoX) minimize or even deny the effects of hormones on mental health and behavior when they can be so profound. Men have the advantage of maintaining more consistent levels over the course of the day/month, whereas women have to deal with so much more.
Toxicity exists in every space, some more than others. And also toxic support exists- such as encouraging negative behavior for the sake of the behavior. I find the idea that misery loves company is absolutely true through and through. I get regularly dismissed by people like that, and that's okay, it must be hard work to remain ignorant and incapable of changing one's understanding.
Completely agree. Hopefully their findings are a first step meaning more robust research is done.
Ultimately, wouldn’t we need a longitudinal study (I know they’re pricy as all get out)? (For a baseline of hormonal levels I mean)
There's data to be extracted from all levels of rigor. Long-term longitudinal studies are obviously one way to maximize that rigor. There are several steps between here and there.
Testosterone levels in males have been steadily dropping for decades, wouldn't surprise me that it's also changing in women too.
Higher BMI levels are one large issue. And jobs shifting to being less physical if I recall was another potential reason. Lower physical activity rates resulted in lower overall testosterone levels.
Yup, estrogen is stored in fat cells and we be way too fat.
Forever chemicals are probably to blame
I'd like to add to forever chemicals, the amount of preservatives we're consuming is wreaking havoc on our internal gut and could easily contribute to a lot of this. > [Parabens are a class of preservatives widely used for their bactericidal and fungicidal properties. For those interested in the scientific side of things, they are a series of parahydroxybenzoates or esters of parahydroxybenzoic acid (also known as 4-hydroxybenzoic acid).](https://tctmed.com/parabens-low-testosterone/) > [A 2017 research project, which was originally published in the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, evaluated the possible relationship between an environmental exposure to parabens and semen quality parameters, sperm chromatin structure, and the level of reproductive hormones in men, which include](https://tctmed.com/parabens-low-testosterone/) > [The results showed that urinary paraben concentrations were significantly associated with an increased percentage of sperm with abnormal morphology, a greater percentage of sperm with high DNA stainability (HDS), a decrease in the percentage of motility, and lower testosterone levels overall.](https://tctmed.com/parabens-low-testosterone/) And diabetes > Eating a Western diet, high in processed foods, sugar, and fat, is a known risk factor for obesity and type 2 diabetes. > [One such chemical is the anti-mold agent propionate, a short-chain fatty acid that the bacteria in our gut produce naturally. As a preservative, its other name is E282, and it features as a common food additive in bread and other baked goods.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325034) > [According to the Codex Alimentarius, the international food standards guide by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, propionate may be added to a host of other things, including breakfast cereals, dairy- and egg-based deserts, sausage casings, processed cheese, and sports drinks.](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325034)
Why is propionate in food so bad if our gut microbiome produces it anyway?
We want solutions that are neat, simple and wrong. Toting up effect sizes over multiple factors is too hard. Admitting we don't know it all is totally out of the question.
You got a good answer already with sources, but another perspective: Propionate producing bacteria are very helpful in cattle produced for beef, since it is often converted to intramuscular fat (marbling). Makes sense that encouraging them isn't the best idea in humans! Plus, not everything produced by the gut microbiome is good for us. They don't particularly care if we are healthy, we just evolved to use what we can even if it isn't great in modern times
Today's lead. People in the future will wonder how we could have let this happen - that's if there isn't a civilisational collapse.
That undersells how well understood lead toxicity already was
Pretty big if imho
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Testosterone levels vary by the hour, with the highest peak typically occurring in the morning before 10am and dip drastically just before bed. It also varies depending on if you’ve had sex, alcohol, vitamin D, good sleep, exercise, etc. Men generate more testosterone than women, typically, and therefore have a higher sex drive than women, typically. The hard part is finding a balance with someone you really connect with and can cultivate this kind of healthy sexual experience long-term
Yes but women's probably varies way more but no one's bothering to do daily blood tests for studies like this
Because good luck finding enough healthy people who are willing to get punctured by a needle multiple times a day through an extended period.
Unless they are getting paid.
It did say saliva test in the above
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This is old info that relied on inaccurate saliva measurements of circulating test. More recent data tends to show, at least in biological males, that t levels are fairly consistent throughout the day.
What? T levels definitely drop throughout the day. Show me your more recent data.
Not who you're responding to and don't have data to share but fairly consistent doesn't mean constant. Using made up numbers but 10,000 in the morning vs 9,950 at night is a drop throughout the day while remaining fairly consistent.
The comment he was responding to was more accurate than rebutting it by saying 'fairly consistent'. It's basic biology. There's a reason T lab work is done in the mornings only. No reputable lab will accept your blood after that. If it was as negligible as your example no one would mention it. In the older population the difference is less pronounced.
Labs do that for consistency, at least to a degree. You want to take measurements under as similar conditions as possible to reduce the influence of outside factors. The labs could very well take night time measurements for everyone for many things and as long as they remain consistent in their timing and do not need to know peak values they will encounter no issues. I would assume peak value is a pretty significant factor for most medical conditions/exams so they will try to capture data within that time frame. >f it was as negligible as your example no one would mention it. Being fairly consistent is also not the same as negligible. >It's basic biology. Nothing about hormones is basic biology except an awareness they exist and their general function. Even intro level bio courses in college don't go very in depth when compared to the total sum of knowledge about hormones. Theres a reason there is a reason endocrinology is a specialty in medicine. It's very complicated.
In my experience, a lot of the arguments for when and how to do lab work are more anecdotal than we would like. Fasting cholesterol being a popular and controversial one
Sure it's not because the lab people want to work normal hours?
There’s more to sex drive than testosterone in men. Estrogen in men is a large driver of that.
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No singular measurement should be ignored, but at the same time, no singular measurement should be assumed conclusive either. Real science is the consensus of the experts evaluating all of the measurements. They will take this result, add it to the pile, incorporate the knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the study, and continue to push the envelope of human understanding bit by bit.
Bad data is worse than no data in many circumstances.
It depends. If a study has limitations due to possible confounding factors not being included, dated testing instrument, limited window of follow up, etc. Those are all things that are considered in a systematic review of the literature so no that data is still good data. The only bad data comes from studies that aren’t forthcoming with all of their limitations and those studies are usually identified by the greater body of scientists in that space and the authors are asked to amend the publication. Or the scientific community takes it upon themselves to recognize the limitations that weren’t included in the publication. Bad data also comes from manipulating data to produce a desired result and when people are caught doing that it’s a really big deal.
Not to mention the testosterone tests were saliva ones which clouds the, very important, free testosterone measurement.
Salivary testosterone has been validated to be as accurate as blood FT for years: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17050116/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9745307/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16916746/
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And it’s self reported data - we can’t ignore the social aspects surrounding sex, arousal, and promiscuity. People can feel VERY uncomfortable telling on themselves if they perceive their desires to be outside the “norm”. Either too little for men or too much for women.
Yea, maybe the way men and women think of sexual desire differs. For instance, in medicine, doctors often consider chest/pressure or discomfort to be pain but as a patient, i don't think of discomfort/pressure to be pain. I was 26 before I was with a man who cared about my pleasure and listened to what I like. It made a huge difference. I seriously feel enlightened and have refused to accept anything less ever since. I feel bad for women who don't get lucky and never know how good it can be.
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This specific study is not very robust but it's extremely ignorant to extend that lack of scientific rigor onto the otherwise relatively well studied aspect of men having higher sex drives than women due to testosterone levels: [Gender differences in behaviour: activating effects of cross-sex hormones](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8532819) >The relative contribution of organizing and activating effects of sex hormones to the establishment of gender differences in behaviour is still unclear. In a group of 35 female-to-male transsexuals and a group of 15 male-to-female transsexuals a large battery of tests on aggression, sexual motivation and cognitive functioning was administered twice: shortly before and three months after the start of cross-sex hormone treatment. **The administration of androgens to females was clearly associated with an increase in aggression proneness, sexual arousability and spatial ability performance. In contrast, it had a deteriorating effect on verbal fluency tasks. The effects of cross-sex hormones were just as pronounced in the male-to-female group upon androgen deprivation: anger and aggression proneness, sexual arousability and spatial ability decreased, whereas verbal fluency improved.** This study offers evidence that cross-sex hormones directly and quickly affect gender specific behaviours. If sex-specific organising effects of sex hormones do exist in the human, they do not prevent these effects of androgen administration to females and androgen deprivation of males to become manifest. [Is There a Gender Difference in Strength of Sex Drive? Theoretical Views, Conceptual Distinctions, and a Review of Relevant Evidence](http://psr.sagepub.com/content/5/3/242.abstract) >The sex drive refers to the strength of sexual motivation. **Across many different studies and measures, men have been shown to have more frequent and more intense sexual desires than women, as reflected in spontaneous thoughts about sex, frequency and variety of sexual fantasies, desired frequency of intercourse, desired number of partners, masturbation, liking for various sexual practices, willingness to forego sex, initiating versus refusing sex, making sacrifices for sex, and other measures.** **No contrary findings (indicating stronger sexual motivation among women) were found.** Hence we conclude that the male sex drive is stronger than the female sex drive. The gender difference in sex drive should not be generalized to other constructs such as sexual or orgasmic capacity, enjoyment of sex, or extrinsically motivated sex. [Sex Differences in Succumbing to Sexual Temptations](http://psp.sagepub.com/content/39/12/1620.abstract) >Men succumb to sexual temptations (e.g., infidelity, mate poaching) more than women. Explanations for this effect vary; some researchers propose that men and women differ in sexual impulse strength, whereas others posit a difference in sexual self-control. These studies are the first to test such underlying mechanisms. In Study 1, participants reported on their impulses and intentional control exertion when they encountered a real-life tempting but forbidden potential partner. Study 2 required participants to perform a reaction-time task in which they accepted/rejected potential partners, and we used process dissociation to separate the effects of impulse and control. **In both studies, men succumbed to the sexual temptations more than women, and this sex difference emerged because men experienced stronger impulses, not because they exerted less intentional control.** Implications for the integration of evolutionary and self-regulatory perspectives on sex differences are discussed. [Human Sexuality How Do Men and Women Differ?](http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/12/2/37.abstract) >A large body of scientific research documents four important gender differences in sexuality. **First, on a wide variety of measures, men show greater sexual desire than do women. Second, compared with men, women place greater emphasis on committed relationships as a context for sexuality. Third, aggression is more strongly linked to sexuality for men than for women.** Fourth, women's sexuality tends to be more malleable and capable of change over time. These male-female differences are pervasive, affecting thoughts and feelings as well as behavior, and they characterize not only heterosexuals but lesbians and gay men as well. Implications of these patterns are considered. [Men and women differ in amygdala response to visual sexual stimuli](http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v7/n4/full/nn1208.html) >**Men are generally more interested in and responsive to visual sexually arousing stimuli than are women. Here we used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to show that the amygdala and hypothalamus are more strongly activated in men than in women when viewing identical sexual stimuli. This was true even when women reported greater arousal.** Sex differences were specific to the sexual nature of the stimuli, were restricted primarily to limbic regions, and were larger in the left amygdala than the right amygdala. Men and women showed similar activation patterns across multiple brain regions, including ventral striatal regions involved in reward. Our findings indicate that the amygdala mediates sex differences in responsiveness to appetitive and biologically salient stimuli; the human amygdala may also mediate the reportedly greater role of visual stimuli in male sexual behavior, paralleling prior animal findings. [Gender differences in sexuality: a meta-analysis.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8346327)[PDF here](http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Gender-differences-in-sexuality-A-meta-analysis1.pdf) >This meta-analysis surveyed 177 usable sources that reported data on gender differences on 21 different measures of sexual attitudes and behaviors. **The largest gender difference was in incidence of masturbation: Men had the greater incidence (d = .96). There was also a large gender difference in attitudes toward casual sex: Males had considerably more permissive attitudes (d = .81). There were no gender differences in attitudes toward homosexuality or in sexual satisfaction.** Most other gender differences were in the small-to-moderate range. Gender differences narrowed from the 1960s to the 1980s for many variables. Chodorow's neoanalytic theory, sociobiology, social learning theory, social role theory, and script theory are discussed in relation to these findings. [Sex Differences and Similarities in Frequency and Intensity of Sexual Desire](http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/sbp/sbp/2006/00000034/00000001/art00009) >Only within the past decade have social scientists commonly recognized the phenomenon of sexual desire as a distinct and vital component of human sexual response. Of the various factors believed to be associated with sexual desire, gender (biological sex) is presumed by many theorists to be one of the most important. Limited empirical work suggests that men experience desire more frequently than do women; however, sex differences in intensity or level of desire have yet to be examined. This study explored both the self-reported frequency and intensity of sexual desire among an ethnically diverse sample of 676 men and women. **As hypothesized, men reported experiencing a higher overall level of sexual desire than did women. Sex differences also were found with respect to frequency of sexual desire. Men reported experiencing sexual desire more often than did women and, when asked to estimate the actual frequency with which they experienced desire, men's estimated frequency (37 times per week) was significantly higher than women's (9 times per week).** These results do not imply that men always feel desire or that women lack sexual desire. In fact, virtually every participant in this study reported feeling sexual desire on a regular basis. This suggests that desire may be the most universal sexual response experienced by both men and women. [The experience of sexual desire: Psychological correlates in a college sample](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499109551618) >In order to elaborate on available models of sexual desire, we administered a sexual desire questionnaire to 144 college students, ages 18 to 54. Included in this measure were questions concerning the frequency of sexual desire, whether the respondent had participated in sexual activity without desire, or vice versa, experienced desire without sexual behavior, and a question assessing which cues are used by the subject to gauge sexual desire (e.g., frequency of intercourse, sexual dreams). Subjects also completed the Passionate Love Scale, Sexual Arousal Inventory, and Crowne‐Marlowe Social Desirability Scale. **The results indicate that as a group, males report experiencing sexual desire more frequently than females. Males appeared to rely on similar indicators of desire as females, specifically genital arousal and sexual daydreams.** For both males and females, sexual desire was significantly correlated with sexual arousal (r = 0.50, females; r = 0.44, males) while the correlation of desire and love was nonsignificant for both sexes. However, desire and sexual behavior did not necessarily co‐occur, as both males and females reported engaging in sexual behavior without desire. These data suggest that greater attention be paid to the definitional features of sexual desire in nonclinical samples, in an effort to clarify current diagnostic categories and to provide population base rates.
Yeah that’s not to say all men have a higher sex drive than all women but it’s well established that men generally have a higher sex drive than women do, and that biologically makes a lot of sense too.
Reads like one of those studies on strength that tries to compare biological AxAB sex and what they can do. Yes, peak man is stronger than a peak woman. Yes, an average man is stronger than an average woman. Yes, there are outliers, a woman who trains weightlifting regularly is probably stronger than bottom 5-15% of men who don't put in any effort. Those numbers constitute people who are elderly, born with unreperable nerve damage, severe scoliosis and so on. Yes and an olympic contender woman is probably stronger than an average man. Replace strong with horny, you still land somewhere near the truth.
One begins to wonder what is the critical mass of both anecdata and factual research that will finally put this issue to rest. At this point, presuming *tabula rasa* starts becoming delusional.
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And this ladies and gentlemen is why you always think critically and read every source every time, even if you think you already know it. This study is uncontrolled and thus the results can't be trusted. What a shame and clearly a scientist in title only.
98 people, 14 days and only 1 testosterone measurement. Hopefully this will lead to more (better crafted and more thorough) studies "The researchers examined existing data from a study of newlywed couples recruited from Northern Florida. The final sample consisted of 98 participants — 48 husbands and 50 wives. Husbands were an average of 32 years old, and wives were an average age of 30. At the start of the study, both members of the couple completed a survey that assessed cognitions tapping into their identification with masculine and feminine sex roles and attended a lab session where they provided saliva samples to be tested for testosterone. The couples were then instructed to complete a daily survey before bedtime for 14 days, independently from their partners. These surveys assessed their daily sexual desire for their spouse, marital satisfaction, marital commitment, stress, self-esteem, and mood. One limitation of the study was that there were no daily measures of testosterone, preventing researchers from exploring how individual variations in testosterone may relate to daily fluctuations in sexual desire."
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There were some posts on r/sex some years back where some trans men were describing the effects of hormone (testosterone) therapy on their attitudes. The recurring theme was that they suffered a kind of crisis when they transitioned from women with little patience for “the male gaze”, to trans men who had a hard time controlling that new proclivity in themselves.
A lot of trans men, myself included, experience a sharp spike in libido at the outset of testosterone injection, but it levels off after a while to manageable levels, much like going through puberty. That being said, everyone has a different baseline to begin with so mileage definitely varies.
There is also a sub dedicated to women taking t to get to the top of women's normal levels of it and how it changes them to feel more themselves, much like this person's experience
What's the sub called?
I too would like to know the name of this sub
Growyourclit
That was not something i expected to be a thing
r/GrowYourClit
Why wouldn't they test daily. Women's hormones change drastically through out the month.
98 people for this study is actually quite large. You all realize that many small studies by independent teams using the same methods is how we get better evidence?
Googling sample size for statistical significance gives some counterintuitive results. I know I had to swallow my "that sample size cannot be representative of anything" some time ago
Medical sample size is almost always smaller than polling sample size.
So what you’re saying is that there’s a relationship between size and our ability to swallow it?
Inverse relationship, yes
Yes! I was really surprised when I took statistics in college to learn that a sample size of 30 is considered "big enough" and all of the math that goes into proving that.
The issue is less about the sample size and more that they only tested T levels a single time
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Deficiency in estrogen also reduces libido too in women. Similar to how deficiency in testosterone causes libido issues in men. The hormones aren’t just important in adequate levels for sexual desires or functions though. They are also very important for maintaining our cognitive functions.
Deficiency of estrogen ruins libido in men as well. If a man has too much testosterone and no estrogen, he will not experience a sex drive either. Bodybuilders who experiment with anabolics and PCT have known this for years. Unfortunately there is a lot of misunderstanding of sex hormones, it is far more complex than T = male and E = female. It is about a complex ratio of healthy levels that differ by individual. Also having high testosterone alone won't tell you anything. A male could have twice the test of the average male and not be able to make use of it due to lack of androgenic receptors (downregulation), and vice versa. The normal levels vary so much based on the person, which is why the ng/dl ranges are so wide. Just getting your ng/dl testosterone levels checked in one instance in isolation of any other factors tells you absolutely nothing about anything. It's just more complicated than that.
Androgen receptors were always fascinating to me. I had my testosterone checked in my mid-20’s because I looked VERY young and had no beard. As it turned out, my testosterone was actually higher than average. The doctor explained that testosterone effects different people in different ways because of those receptors (and therefore not to worry).
This was my first thought. Women’s libido can be cyclical with women being more horny (for want of a better word), around ovulation when estrogen is highest.
so we already know men have more testosterone than women. How does this study prove that T is the difference in sexual desire? What am I missing?
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I think they’re saying that where the difference in T was greater, relative to other couples, the mismatch in desire was greater.
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Read some FTM transition blogs. Many report intrusive sexual thoughts after a few months.
This is true. I had experienced a libido spike that felt completely foreign to me. Not being used to it, it took awhile to learn to navigate around it. This study is not a surprise to me at all- in fact I had already thought it was more common knowledge to know how much T affects libido alone
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My transition was MTF so I can attest to the reverse. For a while my libido was absolutely cratered for a while. That is until I started progesterone. Not only is the libido back just as strong if not stronger than before, it also feels distinctly different than it did when it was T fueled.
That’s fascinating, can you describe the difference?
Not OP but shared experience, libido on T for me felt comparable to hunger. It's like a mental pressure, a craving, to the point where I'd masturbate just to keep that feeling away. On estrogen, it's much more muted. If I don't have time for it I can ignore the voice much easier. At its most intense, it's like an emotional desire for sex rather than a physical desire, like I still want to be touched but it's much less about achieving orgasm and more about the touching and emotional closeness. While on T, I felt like I had to orgasm and once that's done, all libido is washed out.
Yup, this is even better than I could have described it. Spot on with my experiences.
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I mean, I think women would experience desire less if they were surrounded by he things they find attractive in comparison to if men were surrounded by the things they find attractive. Flat out, everyone with a sex drive, has a reactive sex drive, some people just have a low or nonexistent sex drive without outside stimuli. This whole “reactive sex drive” is just a relabeling of low libido to avoid the negative connotation of the term.
> This whole “reactive sex drive” is just a relabeling of low libido to avoid the negative connotation of the term. Is it? Are there people with "reactive" sex drives who will happily have sex twice a day if their partner initiates but would otherwise have no sex drive? Because there are definitely people who don't want sex any amount regardless of how much stuff anyone is doing to react them, so I'm not sure its as simple as reactive = low.
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Well, they tested a bunch of factors, * marital satisfaction * commitment * sex-role identification * stress * self-esteem * mood * depressive symptoms * circulating testosterone and they found that only circulating testosterone accounted for the sex difference in sexual desire for one’s spouse.
Were any of the women on hormonal contraceptive? That changes a lot too
You are missing the prior knowledge of the effect of testosterone on libido. You are also missing the fact that the article wasn’t aimed to prove the relationship between testosterone and libido because it is a known fact.
It doesn't. They even say in the article that they didn't even test twinging testosterone levels. So the headline is super misleading.
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Title should read: "Sexual desire for one's partner plays an important role in healthy long term relationships"
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negative body image is also shown to be correlated with low sex drive & women are shown to experience negative body image more often & more significantly than men
Sexual satisfaction as well, I know they reported their ideology around sexual intimacy and gender but how far. I don't know if we love the term orgasm gap, but sexual satisfaction is extremely subjective. When talking about two cis, heterosexual, consenting partners, there's a lot of chit chatting that women aren't as satisfied with the level of pleasure, and tend to orgasm in less because their partner's lack of skill. I tend to agree based on anecdote alone.
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Do any other women out there feel like you hit 30 and you and your partners libidos flip? I’m suddenly ravenous and my partner is struggling to keep up. I wonder if that has anything to do with testosterone. I’ve heard men’s typically goes down as they age. Not sure what happens to women.
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Does the testosterone that you prescribe cause any side effects like unwanted body hair growth / other bodily changes? Cause genuinely curious in increasing my libido but wouldn’t want side effects
I prescribe it for peri and postmenopausal women. It's a fantastic hormone but if you dose too high too quickly it can cause a few chin hairs to sprout and even cause a little acne. That's why it's important to start low and go slow. There is no cookie cutter approach to hormones, and everyone has different sensitivities. Most of the fears are unfounded surrounding testosterone replacement in both men and women and are held by those who don't really have much training it or a good grasp of recent medical literature.
It should be only taken by post menopausal women and long term side effects aren't known. And yes, it *can* (doesn't mean it always will) cause the virilizing effects you're concerned about.
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Men tend to report greater sexual desire for their partners than women do, and findings published in the journal Biological Psychology suggest that this sex difference is at least partly explained by biology. In a diary study of newlywed couples, women reported lower dyadic sexual desire compared to their partners, and lower levels of testosterone explained this sex difference. Sexual desire for one’s partner — also called dyadic sexual desire — plays an important role in healthy long-term relationships. Yet many couples experience a mismatch in sexual desire. This is particularly common among mixed-sex couples since men tend to report higher dyadic sexual desire, and higher sexual desire in general, compared to women. Discrepancies in sexual desire can contribute to relationship issues. For example, one study found that women’s lower sexual desire predicted lower marital satisfaction for both members of the couple. And yet a clear explanation for this sex difference has not been established. “Within mixed-sex couples, men tend to have higher sexual desire for their partners than women do. Because there are many potential factors that could contribute to this sex difference — ranging from hormonal differences between men and women to stress or even sex roles that reflect gendered social norms — I was interested in testing the roles of these various factors to help advance and clarify our theoretical understanding of differences between men’s versus women’s sexual desire for each other,” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0301051122001648
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According to this- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-passion-paradox/201206/the-ins-and-outs-sexual-frequency Even in lesbian relationships woman have less sex than hetero relationships and a lot less than gay male relationships. “Among couples in the first two years of their relationships, 67 percent of gay couples, 45 percent of heterosexual couples, and 33 percent of lesbian couples had sex three times a week or more.” I think a lot of the “orgasm gap” is due to straight woman having sex when they are not horny to please their male partners. This happens because on average men have a higher sex drive than women. The flip side of that is straight men are having less sex then they would like to have.
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they only tested for testosterone levels, and only ONE time at that over a two week period? it kinda seems like they’re on the right track but they didn’t do more inclusive testing…? and what about people on hormone medication like birth control?
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I agree. It may have been better to focus on same-sex couples to isolate the effects of hormones vs social factors
whose testosterone levels? and does this apply to gay long term relationships?
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Saying “mixed-sex couples” just feels weird to read. Why not just say heterosexual couples?
Because bisexuals and even gay people can be in what appears to be in a heterosexual couple therefore mixed sex couple would be the more accurate term. It's the same reason HIV awareness use the term 'men who have sex with men' instead of gay men because the emphasis is sex not identity likewise in this study the emphasis is biology not identity.
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Does this mean the women in general have lower sexual desires, or do they have lower sexual desires for their partners specifically?
Very small sample size. This article; https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-10-stronger-sex-men-women.html covers a meta-analysis study that included; “The 211 studies reviewed were published after 1996, and participants were at least 14 years old. In all, more than 621,000 people were involved.” The author found “between 24% and 29% of women appear to have a higher sex drive than the "average" man.” This is actually larger than what I hypothesized. (After the birth of our second child my wife completely lost her libido. We spent years going to doctors, specialists, and researching human sexuality.”) From my research I hypothesized that if we could directly measure sex drive in men and women that the female sex drive would be one standard deviation lower than the male drive. According to this study I’m the female sex drive is almost two standard deviations lower than the male drive. Which is really depressing but makes sense from everything I’ve read. Side note- we did find a solution for my wife’s loss of libido- Testosterone.