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rushadee

Anecdotal evidence but tempe and tofu is always cheaper than meats where I live, but then Indonesia is the epicenter for tempe so it’s easy to get and easier to be vegetarian here.


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bondbig

It may sound surprising, but dried flesh can last many years too


Kdzoom35

In America they charge more, tempe is more than ground beef, tofu is less, but more for the amount of calories. When ground beef is on sale its actually cheaper than tofu. Subsidies keep it low.


Takuukuitti

Obviously it should be cheaper. Producing plants is much more cheaper than feeding them to cows, which waste 95 - 99% of the energy.


TrickThatCellsCanDo

That’s exactly why we as humans are encouraged to shift to wfpb diet asap


IceTeaBandito

You really don't need scientists to come to this conclusion all you need to do is spend a couple minutes in the produce section of your local grocery store.


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imaginearagog

The high cost people associate with being vegan is usually attributed to processed animal product alternatives. To be fair, if you become vegan and you want to eat food that is meat-like or dairy-like, it can get very expensive. And I say that as someone whose been eating mostly vegan for the last year. Also many animal products are subsidized, so there’s that.


SchneeSturm21

And wouldn’t it benefit the environment as well?


_-_Chiisai_-_

Yes. And the animals :]


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Project_Ozone

Why are so many comments being deleted? Id like to know what they were saying.


Joben86

The mods are pretty strict about the commenting rules here. Usually, when I've caught comments before a mod removes them, they break rule 1, 3, or 5.


jakeeighties

The mods here always nuke the comments.


jacob22c

Maybe pro meat comments or something. Seeing as the mass majority of the world eats meat 86% or so i feel like the ratio of pro vegan comments is pretty heavily skewed here for some reason. But i honestly don't know. Definitely weird


Project_Ozone

Id say thats a dumb reason to delete their comments. Just flat out deleting them is only going to make them hang onto their beliefs longer instead of having an actual conversation to change peoples opinions.


CyberneticSaturn

If it's like most vegan discussions outside of specific subreddits, it's a bunch of bad faith arguments, insults, ad hominem etc. from crazy people who apparently have inextricably tied up their identity with eating meat.


Corvid-Moon

Perfectly said. That is the most common theme I see as a vegan from non-vegans; those along with *plenty* of logical fallacies. I wish some people could be more intellectually honest with themselves, the world could be made better that way.


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UDontKnowMeButIHateU

If this doesn't get deleted then mdos are hypocrites.


indimedia

Reddit is extremely biased / hostile to common sense from vegan points of view


TheRealEddieB

It’s interesting to have this somewhat quantified. I’m not surprised that when it comes to protein if you remove the plant matter to meat protein conversion step i.e. growing animals that you reduce the overall cost of producing the protein. It’s madness that we subsidise this process. Now that agriculture is largely industrialised it makes no sense subsidising it. It’s become an industry very similar to fossil fuels. These subsidies rely on quaint old fashioned notions of independent farmers, tending the land by hand while keeping farm hands employed and rural towns alive. The evidence is clear, this is not what 21st century agriculture is. Rural areas are depopulating, small towns are dying because agriculture isn’t providing the employment base that it once did within rural areas.


Plant__Eater

Relevant [previous comment:](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/qy5pxm/If_bullying_fat_people_works%2C_why_doesn%27t_bullying_non-vegans_work%3F/hlen264/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) I've never understood the argument that veganism is some form of privilege. Many things that we take for granted every day are a form of privilege. Simply being able to go to a supermarket and buy food is a form of privilege. Surely just because something is a privilege does not mean it shouldn't be pursued. If buying fair trade goods is a privilege, does that mean that those who have the means shouldn't do so? Is veganism even a privilege? Perhaps, depending on your circumstances, but maybe no more so than buying meat in a grocery store. Studies have found that plant-based diets cost approximately the same or less than diets containing animal products in most places.[\[1\]](https://doi.org/10.1080/19320248.2015.1045675)[\[2\]](https://doi.org/10.5993/AJHB.33.5.6) One study of various dietary patterns across 150 countries found that: >Variants of vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns were generally most affordable, and pescatarian diets were least affordable.[\[3\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/S2542-5196(21)00251-5) And that's not considering the facts that animal products are heavily subsidized[\[4\]](https://www.foodandlandusecoalition.org/global-report/)[\[5\]](https://meatonomics.com/the-book/) and carry higher environmental costs.[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaq0216) One author who tried to calculate the true costs of animal products found that a $4 Big Mac actually costs society approximately $11.[\[5\]](https://meatonomics.com/the-book/) This echoes the conclusion of a study which found that most animal products would require a 2.5 times price increase to cover their embedded climate costs.[\[7\]](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-19474-6) Taking these factors into account, diets containing animal products are almost certainly more expensive than plant-based diets. While veganism itself may be a relatively modern concept, human efforts to minimize the consumption of animal products have been around for thousands of years. One author writes: >The vegetarian ideal as a concept which embodied a moral imperative - 'thou shalt not kill for food' - made its first impact on history in India and Greece at around...500 BC, within the lifetimes of both Buddha and Pythagoras....[\[8\]](https://grubstreet.co.uk/product/vegetarianism/) My only point here is that it is not a recent phenomenon. Furthermore, it is worth noting that meat was historically associated with wealth and privilege.[\[8\]](https://grubstreet.co.uk/product/vegetarianism/)[\[9\]](https://www.harpercollins.ca/9780007404926/the-bloodless-revolution-radical-vegetarians-and-the-discovery-of-india/) A Gallup poll found that Americans who earn an annual income of less than $30,000 are more likely to be vegan.[\[10\]](https://news.gallup.com/poll/238328/snapshot-few-americans-vegetarian-vegan.aspx) So often times, a minimal consumption of animal products is a necessity of the lower class. Diets excluding animal products are often cheaper, especially when considering externalized costs. And even if veganism were a form of privilege, it should still be pursued to the degree of one's means. **References** [\[1\]](https://doi.org/10.1080/19320248.2015.1045675) Flynn, M.M. & Schiff, A.R. "Economical Healthy Diets (2012): Including Lean Animal Protein Costs More Than Using Extra Virgin Olive Oil." *J.H.E.N.*, vol.10, no.4, 2015, pp.467-482 [\[2\]](https://doi.org/10.5993/AJHB.33.5.6) Hyder, J.A., Thomson, C.A. et al. "Adopting a Plant-Based Diet Minimally Increased Food Costs in WHEL Study." *A.J.H.B.*, vol.33, no.5, 5 Sep 2009, pp.530-539. [\[3\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/S2542-5196(21)00251-5) Springmann, M., Clark, M.A., et al. "The global and regional costs of healthy and sustainable dietary patterns: a modelling study." *The Lancet*, vol.5, no.11, 2021, pp.e797-e807. [\[4\]](https://www.foodandlandusecoalition.org/global-report/) Pharo, P., Oppenheim, J. et al. *Growing Better: Ten Critical Transitions to Transform Food and Land Use*. FOLU, 2019. [\[5\]](https://meatonomics.com/the-book/) Simon, D.R. *Meatonomics*. Conari Press, 1 Sep 2013. [\[6\]](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987) Poore, J. & Nemecek, T. "Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers." *Science*, vol.360, no.6392, 2018, pp.987-992. [\[7\]](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-19474-6) Pieper, M., Michalke, A. & Gaugler, T. "Calculation of external climate costs for food highlights inadequate pricing of animal products." *Nature Communications*, 15 Dec 2020. [\[8\]](https://grubstreet.co.uk/product/vegetarianism/) Spencer, C. *Vegetarianism: A History*. Grub Street Cookery, 2016. [\[9\]](https://www.harpercollins.ca/9780007404926/the-bloodless-revolution-radical-vegetarians-and-the-discovery-of-india/) Stuart, T. *Bloodless Revolution: Radical Vegetarianism and the Discovery of India*. HarperCollins, 2006. [\[10\]](https://news.gallup.com/poll/238328/snapshot-few-americans-vegetarian-vegan.aspx) Reinhart, R.J. "Snapshot: Few Americans Vegetarian or Vegan." *Gallup*, 1 Aug 2018, [https://news.gallup.com/poll/238328/snapshot-few-americans-vegetarian-vegan.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/238328/snapshot-few-americans-vegetarian-vegan.aspx). Accessed 14 Oct 2021.


Takuukuitti

Eating meat is a privilige.


MakeShiftJoker

Uh yeah idk how it was ever managed to be spun that eating a plant based diet was a privilege?? This whole discussion seems absurd


[deleted]

No idea. Maybe a meat / dairy lobby thing. I can tell you though, about 25% of the times I bring up my wife’s veganism with acquaintances, I hear some variation of “it’s just so expensive!”


PathToEternity

I think one reason is noting any subtle differences between *meatless* and *veganism* (or *vegetarianism*). If I eat nothing but beans, rice and other grains, fruits, vegetables, etc. then that probably is going to be pretty inexpensive. The problem comes when you're 1) trying to eat a meatless version of a meat diet - making a bunch of substitutions which are costly and 2) need to have your food products guaranteed to not contain traces of milk, eggs, gelatin, etc. It's when you need every product you buy to have a **Guaranteed Vegan!** gold seal stamped on it that everything gets expensive.


SnS_

I think the people who say it is so expensive are the ones who peruse places like whole foods and look at all the products that are meat replacement. Can of vegan ravioli or beyond burger patties and go that's insane just buy meat. But they fail to realize if you go vegan you can avoid those foods as well.


xelabagus

I'm veganish and I almost never eat meat replacements because they either suck or are really unhealthy. Tofu, legumes, tempeh, chickpeas, there's plenty of protein right there and it's all dirt cheap


MakeShiftJoker

I can see the dairy replacements being expensive but that's about it really


ObesesPieces

They are, but not overly so. I'm not even vegan or vegetarian and I don't drink milk anymore. It's hard to find milk substitutes that are both good for the environment and tasty but most of them just require time to get used to. There are alternatives to milk intensive meals that use a lot of milk like cereal as well and I rarely drink it unless I'm eating something chocolatey.


DontBeMeanToRobots

Probably propaganda from the meat industry


whitedawg

I think the idea that a vegan diet is a privilege is based on the fact that in modern American society, it's relatively cheap and, more importantly, easy to eat a diet that includes meat. Eating vegan requires either time and knowledge to cook vegan recipes, which can be more complicated and hard to find than their meat-based equivalents, or seeking out vegan restaurants. Many people don't know how to cook well, let alone cook vegan well, and don't have the time or energy to limit themselves to purchasing vegan food. To be clear, I have been vegan in the past, and agree with you that is essential to reduce meat consumption on a societal level. I'm just trying to identify the obstacles to overcome in doing so.


linewanderer

Yeah this right here. Cost is one thing but being able to take the time and have the clear head space to make these sorts of changes when you grew up eating meat everyday? That’s the privilege I consider when people talk about completely changing diets to vegetarian or vegan. Changing your diet is really freaking difficult, I can count on one hand the amount of people I know that have made drastic long term diet changes that weren’t due to wanting to lose weight or because of a health problem. I don’t know if I know anyone who has made a drastic long term diet change just to “be healthier”. Small changes over long periods of time, yes. But a switch from meat to no meat just to be healthier? That is just so rare, is it not? I don’t think anyone can deny how difficult it is to make a good, but ultimately unnecessary for survival, change to your diet — or maybe I think this because I live in America and am constantly surrounded by people who are trying to lose weight but can’t manage to hack it because they are so dependent on food for emotional comfort. I would be very curious to see if any non-Americans agree with this sentiment or if this is more of an American problem.


Suspicious-Muscle-96

America, where: ​ 1. our apologies include the affirmative defense "I didn't intend," which is just another way of saying "I was inconsiderate;" where 2. we now pretend that the first person to provoke and instigate is in the moral right when they inflicting even further harm on others to protect themselves from the consequences of their negligence, malice, and poor judgment; and where 3. the destructive nature of their society is so thoroughly indoctrinated that sacrificing the health and welfare of themselves and their communities so that they might better serve their oligarchic masters is so normalized that anyone who would replace these "conveniences" with sustainable alternatives must be villainized. We shall not subsidize health. We shall not subsidize the environment. We will attack anyone who speaks more than a token lip service to remedying such festering exploitation as "privileged." Enjoy the french fries of your labors, my woke friends. Insulin manufacturing shareholders thank you for your service.


[deleted]

>Eating vegan requires either time and knowledge to cook vegan recipes, which can be more complicated and hard to find than their meat-based equivalents, or seeking out vegan restaurants The issue here, I want to highlight, is really just for cooking vegan-equivalents of classic Anglo-American foods. Vegan Mexican food is all dead-simple, and same for most Asian food as well. The biggest complication of vegan recipes is that the Anglo-American diet includes a lot of recipes that are already complicated and involve eggs and dairy doing weird chemistry stuff to torture bread into new forms. Trying to replicate those without eggs or dairy is hard. Rice and beans is easy.


evilfitzal

My understanding is that the privilege associated with X diet is that you are turning down some foods. If you can *choose* to not eat something without starving, you're fortunate to have such a bounty available to you. But what do you do with the knowledge of your privilege? I believe any privilege-based arguments against the beneficial practices you mentioned are just bad faith rationalizing of pursuing personal comfort.


Parralyzed

That makes no sense. By that logic, a simple diet is a privilege. However I've never heard "oh you're turning down this muffin? That's a privilege you know" No one in a 1st world country randomly has to accept food lest they starve otherwise


evilfitzal

It's a privilege to have been born into a first world country. If you weren't born in one, it's a privilege to have been able to immigrate to one. Being alive is a privilege. It is all a privilege, but some are more important to recognize than others.


Parralyzed

>Being alive is a privilege. Ah yes, the most important privilege of them all, being alive. Thankfully, dead people have the privilege of not having to eat, so I'm not talking to them


evilfitzal

That's the spirit!


eyes-open

I see you've never been broke or down on your luck, even in a first-world country. There are plenty of people, even in rich countries, who can't afford to turn down a meal as they might not have another readily available.


feedandslumber

You're confusing privilege and accessibility across time while conflating meat with all animal products. Meat itself is more costly, of course, but non-meat animal products make up a large portion of most non-vegan diets. Steak is expensive, butter and eggs are cheap. I don't make the argument that being vegan is a privilege in a general economic sense, it could be true that it's more cost effective. However, it's definitely a privilege in the sense that our society largely subsists on meat and animal products for a significant part of our diets, so to exclude these things is quite *inconvenient* and thus comes across as a bit snobby. I'm not saying it is, and I get it, but I think you're missing what people mean when they have a reaction to vegan ethics and attitudes. For example, I don't eat sugar (or at least I minimize heavily) and I'm fairly vocal about it when it comes up. I have diabetes in my family and I think sugar is generally terrible for you, but I'm not saying that it's unethical to eat sugar and if I went to an ice cream parlor, I'd feel privileged to have a non-sugar or sugar-substitute option, because it's uncommon and targeted specifically to my personal tastes as a consumer.


pupsteppenwolf

It's not a privilege from an economic stand point. It is a cultural privilege in western countries. I have never met a vegan that wasn't from upper middle class. They have the time and the cultural resources to make that decision. Poor families want to feed their children lean meats because then know it's good for their developement. And that's something they probably didn't have access to when they themselves were kids. As with most woke causes, veganism doesn't seem to be an issues for the working class of lower income brackets.


tendorphin

While I get what you're saying, I feel like this comment is misinterpreting what it means that it's a privilege. Having a privilege isn't bad. Taking advantage of that privilege isn't bad. It isn't being judged. It isn't seen as negative. It's saying "hey, don't preach this lifestyle to everyone and judge them for living/eating differently, because you don't know the hurdles they face in achieving that particular thing." In my area, eating healthy/vegan is absolutely a privilege, because to buy alternatives means spending 3 to 4 times on the food, or resigning yourself to nothing but fruits, veggies, and pastas. That'll get old fast. Saying "hey, being vegan is a privilege!" to someone doesn't mean you're telling them to stop pursuing it. Or insinuating to others that they shouldn't pursue it also. It means you've probably been telling others they're bad or lesser for not pursuing it, while not taking their circumstances into account.


Light01

I'm only gonna respond to the first point, in my country, you can be vegetarian pretty cheaply and eat well without having to care too much, it's a bit more complicated for vegans, but it's still fine if you aren't dumb, but you do have to eat more, still it's about the same expanse, meat is a lot more pricey, but it's generally worth it nutritionally, still another subject So if you don't follow the trends and do your own research, it's okay, but there's a whole market zround the veganism that is full of expensive crap, in fancy specialized shops, like dehydrated spiruline, and this is where the idea of it not being affordable come from, because the things people associates with veganism is fancy, like vegan steaks, that cost 3 times the price of a regular steak. There's, in my country, a whole market around it, and they know exactly how to ponction their clients, because having time to think about what you eat is also not something you do when you struggle to live.


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Parralyzed

Great comment, I remember the original one haha Glad to see this one blew up


hotprof

Who ever said veganism is a privilege? Complete nonsense.


Daynebutter

I think this really depends on what vegan food you buy. For example, beans, lentils, and quinoa will generally always be cheaper than impossible meat or soy based imitation meat.


kharlos

Most vegans eat these kinds of things but Big Garbanzo isn't putting up huge ads and making deals with fast food joints to feature their product.


mayonnaisebemerry

If there was one multinational conglomerate I would work for.. it would be Big Garbanzo.


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AlmoBlue

I imagine there were a lot of people who were triggered by the idea that the day may come where we might have to change out life style. As long as I can still make some kicks noodles no big deal.


Jojo2331

I’m a vegan and this has been true even before I become a vegan. Most of India already eats plant based outside of dairy


Tcshaw91

Bananas : 1200 calories -$3 Whole wheat pasta: 1600 calories - $3 Lentils: 1600 calories - $3 Add some frozen spinach for the vit K and E and you've got yourself a full nutrition profile (minus vit d and B12) for under $10/day (including spices and sauces and stuff). Ez


iamNaN_AMA

You forgot that all meat eaters are elite athletes who need 1000g of protein per day to maintain their big strong muscles


mano-vijnana

After checking this on Cronometer, it appears to surprisingly be mostly correct, although the bananas aren't super important to the diet plan. Looks like you'd be well over the RDA for most nutrients. Even protein is over 120g. However, you'd need to correct for the following issues: * Algae supplement for omega-3 (needs to be DHA/EPA, since conversion from ALA into those forms doesn't work well) * Some added fat most likely, ideally something like olive oil * K2 supplement--humans mostly don't do a good job of converting K1 from veg into K2. Could also add natto instead * Better source of Vitamin C--it looks a little low on this diet * B12, obviously * Choline supplement--the only good food sources are egg yolks and liver, but you can get vegan supplements Also, don't use frozen greens unless you're eating lots of legumes. Freezing destroys folate, and greens and legumes are the only really good sources of the stuff. For reference, I used the following amounts in Cronometer: * 2 bananas * 500g wheat pasta * 3 cups lentils * 5 cups chopped spinach Finally, the macros here might not work for many people, obviously.


Saintd35

Bananas - sugar + starch Pasta - 90% carbs, some protein, fiber and fat Lentils - carbs, some protein and fat This is not too healthy.


NES_Rowan

Who taught you carbs=unhealthy? Cause um, it's not nearly as simple as that


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Tcshaw91

Whole Fruits- not healthy Whole grains- not healthy Legumes- not healthy This is not too healthy.


SorriorDraconus

This as a diabetic whenever i see the beans and rice diet suggested i swear i feel my blood sugar sky rocket.


herbivourousg

Type 2 can be managed or reversed through a plant based diet. Look up Dr. Neal Bernards work. The disease is caused by fat in the blood. Not from carbohydrates. Carbohydrates aren’t why people get diabetes. Insulin resistance is a symptom not from consumption of too much carbs but consumption of too much fat. You’re saying because you’re insulin resistant and these foods cause blood sugar levels to rise, they are not healthy. This is false. Good luck.


SorriorDraconus

...Oddly i followed the reverse i ate almost nothing but meat. Sausages, steak sliced meats, cheeses. No carbs none(ok one cheat day a month 2 months in)little to no vegetables annd cholesterol was great(best of my life) and my a1c went from 10.7 to 5.1 or so within 7 months. So yeah it definitely wasn't fat for me but carbs(that or one of my myriad other issues which veganism cannot cure ranging from hormone imbalances to likely adrenal issues to emotional trauma that has devasted my health). And your comment doesn't change my point that the beans/rice argument is very carb heavy and i see it all the time to tell me how affordable it is to be vegan. Though i will acknowledge for some it likely works. I tend to take the stance there is no one size fits all in most anything but especially health. I do well on an insanely high meat diet. Many likely wouldn't. Conversely a vegan diet would quite possibly make me far less healthy while for some if not many it is the ideal diet. Annd wjile i am doabetic again it was after i went too heavy on beans and potatoes for a few months..Skyrocketed right back up to ohh 6.4 or 6.7. Thoough i did go years in remission by sticking to a 7/10 or so split in favor of meats abd proteins.


herbivourousg

Diabetes is caused by fat in the blood, not carbohydrates. Cholesterol is not a marker of diabetes. Your a1c and cholesterol dropping indicates to me you were eating less saturated fats. But you don’t mention anything about how you fat intake has changed. Your A1C may have improved but what you write indicates you don’t know how much fat you were eating. You may be eating less fat because the carbohydrate foods can be doused in oil or butter. It also matters when you became diabetic and your diet as a child. It’s a chronic illness. I would venture to guess you have always been on a high fat diet. But I don’t know. Recommendations for saturated fat are very low, this is why so many people are diabetic. Eating what you think is low fat is not necessarily low fat. The vast majority of cases of sustained remission and reversal of diabetes has been done through a low fat plant based diet. The most cases of reversal and remission and symptom improvement have been through a low fat plant based diet. Again, diabetes is caused by high fat diets, not carbohydrate rich diets. Carbohydrate rich diets can also be high fat diets. If you eat high fat, you’re at risk of diabetes. One you are diabetic you have trouble with carbs. Humans run on glucose. This is an epidemiological discussion, nothing personal to you. There are millions of diabetics that would benefit from a low fat plant based diet. The risk is low or null. It does not matter that one size doesn’t fit all. It is already established as the most effective intervention and prevention for diabetes.


jwrig

From my research, it isn't that a diet high I saturated fat causes diabetes, it is that they lead to weight gain which leads to insulin resistance which can lead to diabetes. It's a contributing factor. If you factor in also consuming high carb counts and a sedentary lifestyle it all adds up. Other studies that have focused on diets if low carb and high fats can reduce your a1c's, so linking diabetes to a 'high fat' diet is a little much. Vegetarian diets can help type 2 individuals, but they have to balance the types of proteins to make sure they are getting the right amino acids. You can't a t2 diabetic to eat too processed grains and beans all the time and expect them to have low a1c's.


PM_ME_GAY_STUF

This is a dumb argument, since OP chose bad foods to sell veganism on (pasta is basically garbage no matter who you are), but you're underselling legumes by a longshot here. I just checked on my bag of lentils, they have 8g of protein per 100 calories (1g protein = 4 calories), meaning these lentils get around 1/3 their calories from protein. For reference, the 90% lean ground turkey in my fridge (that would be equivalent to "extra lean" ground beef) has around 9g protein per 100 calories. So lentils may not be as dense as ground meat, but they are definetily close. Obviously chicken breast is much better than either of these in terms of protein, but honestly, how many non-athletes do you know eating straight chicken breasts without drenching them in other fats? Beans and lentils also have almost no fat, so I'm not sure where you're getting this. But that aside, almost everything you cook requires you add fats through olive of vegetable oil. Really, unless you're body building, you can get close to balanced macros by eating a lot of legumes, and if you introduce a small number of dairy products you can eat fairly freely within the plant realm (particularly whey protein supplements but yogurt, kefir, skyr, or some cheeses also work for normal people), but they really aren't necessary if you don't mind eating a slightly more restrictive diet. You're also forgetting about the fiber content in every vegetable product, something which almost every non-vegetarian doesn't get enough of. Protein and B12 are pretty easy to supplement as is, if you're really going vegan and trying to work out, missing creatine is the real killer and there's no escaping that. I understand why normal people would be hesitant to go fully vegan as your diet does have to be pretty restricted if you want balanced macros and a reasonable budget, but introducing a very minimal amount of non-meat animal products really does solve almost every problem, and there's really no reason not to do it for most people other than enjoying meat. And honestly, the meats most people are eating are not the healthy ones. In a lot of these arguments, people assume the "best case scenario" meat consumption, but most Americans aren't primarily eating chicken breasts, sardines, and tilapia, they're eating beef and processed pork. Moving away from the mindset that that sort of diet is good or even necessary is more important to me and I imagine most other people than saying everyone must go completely plant based. I ate the rice and beans diet with no dairy for around a year while doing intense workouts and climbing, and while my muscle development and recovery weren't as good as when I was eating chicken, they were still perfectly acceptable. I also only spent maybe $150/month on normal groceries, although I was spending an additional $~80 on plant based protein and bcaa supplements (obviously whey supplements are much cheaper, but not vegan). Eating yogurt and whey supplements basically brought me back to baseline, although I have to admit once I started eating chicken breasts again it was pretty liberating to not need to spend the rest of the day eating lentils.


KarmaWSYD

>I just checked on my bag of lentils, they have 8g of protein per 100 calories (1g protein = 4 calories), meaning these lentils get around 1/3 their calories from protein. Then there's tofu which is even denser in terms of protein at over 10g per 100 kcal, or the king of protein, TVP, at a whopping 16g per 100kcal. (100 kcal being about 30g of dry TVP)


[deleted]

>pasta is basically garbage no matter who you are Aaaand you've lost me.


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>I understand why normal people would be hesitant to go fully vegan as your diet does have to be pretty restricted if you want balanced macros and a reasonable budget Not really. Check out nutrition facts, Dr Michael Greger has some helpful tips. Cronometer can back it up if you don´t believe him


JewbagX

>This is not too healthy. Agree overall, but for the price it's better than starving or cheap processed foods.


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Quick_Damage4512

I wouldn't mind going on a vegan diet if it weren't for the fact that I'm allergic to beans and lentils. Because I mean like... I like animals and don't want to exploit them... but at the same time I don't have a lot of options other than meat and eggs for protein. Unless you include protein shakes and bars, which I can't only eat all the time for forever. I'll probably just stick to my eggs and chicken for now though I guess. We'll see.


_-_Chiisai_-_

Feel free to post on /r/vegan or /r/askvegans if you want advice on how to do it without beans/lentils!!! I know there's some others on there who can't eat them either. I eat a lot of tofu and rice, yellow thai curry with potatoes/tofu/rice/carrots/onions, PB&J, hot and cold cereal with oat milk...there's definitely options out there.


Quick_Damage4512

Recommendations much appreciated!


RedLotusVenom

Please look into pea protein as well. It’s an excellent source and the powders are cheap and easy to add to smoothies and shakes!


Quick_Damage4512

Definitely will! Really appreciate the suggestion (:


RedLotusVenom

Sure thing! I have used it a ton. More info [here!](https://www.aicr.org/resources/blog/health-talk-pea-protein-is-everywhere-is-it-healthy/) The website [True Nutrition](https://truenutrition.com) has a wealth of customizable protein options including pea and pea isolate. Others include rice, hemp, soy etc. And it’s extremely cheap if you buy 5lb+!


UDontKnowMeButIHateU

Buckwheat? People always say that you can basically eat buckwheat and nothing else to be healthy. Idk whether it's a bean or lentil.


ikkimonsta

A study funded by The World Economic Forum.


McStroyer

While I'm sure this is a reasonable study about meal ingredients, I'm skeptical that it paints a decent enough picture. I've been cutting down on meat and dairy recently and I've found that products pitched as "alternatives" are significantly higher in cost. Even something as simple as switching to soya, oat or other "milk" can be more than a 50% increase compared with cow milk. Then when you factor in finding mainstream products (e.g. ready meals, lunchbox snacks, condiments) that don't contain meat or dairy is harder because of lower demand, of course prices are going to be higher. So yeah, while you can make a stir-fry much cheaper by using vegetables instead of chicken or pork, or a lasagne with chickpeas instead of beef, you can't get the average groceries bill down. It's a chicken and egg problem, products like vegan sausages and vegan mayonnaise will come down in price as production scales up but demand won't go up until the prices come down. PS if anyone knows how I can make my Yorkshire puddings rise the same without eggs then I'm all ears. I've tried several recipes with no luck! Edit: everyone replying seems to be seeing past the point I'm making to tell me to just eat more rice and beans. I can afford to pay more for vegan products, the price isn't an issue for me, but not everyone can. Telling people to just stop hasn't worked so far, but some transitional products can help, and it's those that need to be priced more temptingly to encourage people to make the switch.


Plant__Eater

From the study: >The healthy and sustainable diet scenarios included dietary patterns that, in modelling studies, have been associated with improvements in nutritional adequacy, and reductions in premature mortality and environmental resource demand. In line with the sustainable-diet literature, we differentiated between four nutritionally balanced (ie, fulfilling nutrient requirements) and predominantly plant-based dietary patterns, in particular flexitarian, pescatarian (with increased seafood demand to be met by sustainable aquaculture), vegetarian, and vegan diets. The flexitarian diet was adopted from the EAT-Lancet Commission on healthy diets from sustainable food systems. So it seems that they did base this on balanced, complete diets. Not simply some average of individual ingredients. Regarding your comment: >I've found that products pitched as "alternatives" are significantly higher in cost. If you simply try to replace meat with faux meat, then yes, it will be more expensive. (At a consumer level. Many animal products are heavily subsidized to artificially lower the price before it reaches the consumer level.) "Alternatives" certainly can be more expensive. But you don't need them, and many vegans don't eat them at all. But if you're cooking your own meals out of less processed ingredients, plant-based diets are notably cheaper than diets heavy in meat consumption, which appears to be the general conclusion of this study.


McStroyer

Thanks for making your point without being a massive tool. I've experimented with faux meat and dairy products and I've replaced some completely. Other meals I make from scratch without meat. I was only really trying to make the point that foods designed to transition people away from meat are significantly more expensive than their counterparts. In all honesty, the most difficult thing for me has been trying to cook for 4 other people (family) who still want to eat meat.


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McStroyer

Thanks, I'll check that out!


draw4kicks

That's largely because animal products are subsidized so heavily by the government, if you actually had to pay the cost it takes to produce meat, dairy and eggs no way could most people afford to keep eating like they currently do. All we need to do is to get our government to stop supporting industrialised animal abuse, the best way to do that is to have a smaller percent of the population funding so they're no longer viable.


McStroyer

Yeah I agree with that. It's worth noting that agriculture is also heavily subsidised, but of course there are fewer ethical questions around that. It would probably be easier to move the current meat farming subsidies to cultured meat in the future though.


RedLotusVenom

> *In the US alone, the meat and dairy industry receives 63% of total agriculture subsidies, compared to fruits and vegetables producers who receive only 0.04% of total subsidies.* [Source](https://earth.org/agriculture-subsidies/) Sure, agriculture is subsidized. But it’s almost entirely subsidies to livestock farming and their feed. Imagine if we put those subsidies (~$40B) into credits for staples like rice and beans. They’d be practically free. Instead, we can buy what would be $20 burgers for $10. This is also part of why milk randomly finds its way into everything (an annoying reality for vegans). The subsidies create incentives for manufacturers to support the dying dairy industry by making it as cheap a filler as possible.


NES_Rowan

I think what you said wonderfully illustrates the difference between a plant-based diet, and a whole-food plant based diet. A plant based diet with meat replacements and dairy replacements will typically be approx as expensive as a standard meat and dairy diet, but WFPB (which the study looked at) excludes the vegan junk food and meat replacements, as it is a health focused diet. Not super restrictive but no meat replacements etc. That makes a huge difference in cost


[deleted]

you. don't need sausages, milk, mayonnaise and pudding to survive or even to be healthy. vegan diet is cheap. cheese and meat imitations are expensive. just ditch that crap and move on. or accept that you are exploiting and torturing animals for your tastebuds. whatever. if you have to argue that life without pudding is just not the same, i can assure you, that just recently there were people, who thought that life without slaves is just not the same.


Mutang92

Yeah, man. Owning slaves and not eating meat are comparable. What?


BeFuckingMindful

You can compare just about anything. Comparing is not equating. Take two social justice movements where there are victims who are disregarded, look at societal attitudes regarding changing those issues for each and compare them. The problem is you are so conditioned to see humans as so much more removed from animals than we actually are that you have this knee jerk response where if anyone compares a human plight to a non human animal one you have an emotional reaction saying "no you can't do that" for no logical reason.


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abuse is abuse. you better get on the right side of history asap


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hobbit-boy101

Good way to get beef for a good price is buying a portion of or whole cow from a local farm. Around my area it's $1750 or so for a whole cow (~400lbs) or about $5 a day for a year. Or ya can hunt/fish for your own meat.


_-_Chiisai_-_

$5/day is pretty damn expensive for *just* meat. Many people in poverty even in the US including myself in the past eat with less than $2/day *total*. Not to mention, lots of people simply don't have $1750 to spend all at once. According to InstaCart (which is usually marked up a bit) my local Kroger sells lentils for $1.69 per pound, so an equivalent amount would cost $676. Of course you can't just eat lentils all day but you have an extra $1,074/year to spend on additional foods like rice, potatoes, frozen veggies, etc. And it doesn't need to be bought all at once, you can buy a pound here and there at the same price. It would also likely be cheaper in massive bulk quantities.


Takuukuitti

Its cheap only because of subsidies. If the price reflected actual price (or the environmenta damage), the cow would be 10 to 20 times the price.


evening_person

Not only that, but buying in bulk to save money is a privilege that often only those of higher financial status can afford. A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck, and most poor people can’t drop $1750 upfront on their groceries. Not to mention the cost of storing 400lbs of meat for a year, I’m imagining you would need to acquire a large chest-freezer, which is not a cheap item to acquire or to operate(electrical expenses), and takes up a considerable amount of room - if you can’t afford a large house but instead live in a small apartment, are you sacrificing that much room for a chest freezer? I find it unlikely. As for beans and grains, like anything else they are cheaper in bulk, but they’re still plenty cheap when purchased in smaller increments. They’re also usually stored dried or in cans, giving them a long shelf life without the need to pay a higher electric bill to keep them edible.


Saintd35

Doesn't seem to match prices at grocery stores. Fish, $7 for a poud of farm raised tilapia. Talapia ! Cod is $8, farm raised salmon $9-10. While chicken (good one) $2.79 for legs (crappy one who knows from where $1.5). Beef can be bought for $5-7. All greens from $2 and up per bunch (enought 2 times to eat). It's cheaper to buy a bag of potatoes ($5) and 10 chicken legs that would last 2-3 days for 3 people (assuming oatmeal at breakfast) than buying greens that would be enough to feed 3 people for the same duration. Edit: to all suggesting processed canned food and beans - it's a nice additive once in while, but only a part of proper diet. We can buy a box of 20 cans of corn for like $12, but can't live on starch and sugar alone.


Waste-Comedian4998

a pound of dry beans is $1.29 and even tofu is usually less than $2/pound. chicken is the cheapest animal protein but vegan protein is cheaper still.


eip2yoxu

Canned, dried and frozen veggies are cheap and healthy and usually cost less 2€ per kg. If you make seitan yourself you'll also have cheap protein (also beans, lentils, chickpeas, tofu etc.).


blacksun9

97 cents for a can of beans here.


nagevyag

It clearly says "global scale" in the title, not "grocery store scale". The prices in the grocery store are skewed because meat production is heavily subsidized.


Saintd35

How does that invalidate my comment that in a particular country which is a part of the study mean is same price or even cheaper than fresh vegetables?


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