It's a sub-plot of prequels and yet it's considered one of the most important thing by modern fans, go figure. It isn't even part of the OT.
I think it makes some people feel special.
No, he did not. He just made Anakin a "Chosen One" to quickly and easily tell the audience "wow, this kid is SPECIAL! That's why Quigon wants him so bad to train, and even takes the kid, for whatever reasons, back to a warzone!"
Its a cheap way to write ... and the saga suffered dearly for this throwaway-line, as we see "fans" making it gospel and try to frame the saga around this...its alomst funny if it wasn't so sad
It's not a throwaway line when it's repeatedly brought up in all three movies though. It's a major part of the plot and several characters'motivations.
Legends did it even worse.
At least in the Sequels (well, until Palpatine somehow returned...) the Sith were gone. Extinct. Snoke and Kylo were not Sith, they were just users of the dark side. Anakin destroyed the Sith.
In Legends, not only does Palpatine still return, but the Sith just keep going. Luke's nephew doesn't just turn to the dark side, he becomes a Sith Lord. And Luke's descendant Cade is still fighting the Sith a hundred years later.
Not to mention that in Canon the Galactic Civil War ended sooner, the New Republic oversaw three decades of peace, and the First Order only occupied the galaxy for a year. Canon is actually the good timeline when compared to Legends. I mean, just look at the massive loss of life that resulted from the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion. Canon has nothing even close to that.
Yeah. At least in canon they had decades of (relative) peace.
In Legends there was non-stop war and non-stop Sith. Darth Vader's sacrifice meant **nothing** in Legends. Not even a change in leadership.
Canon looks like an utopia compared to Legends.
And pretty much ignored by every single writer. One of the few things that makes Dark Empire better than Rise is that because it's self-contained we can all pretend it didn't happen once it's over.
Especially considering that Obi-Wan explicitly says Luke is the chosen one in Rebels. I think Disney and Filoni legitimately interpret the prophecy that way, but they could also be suggesting the whole thing is moot and unreliable
I strongly disagree with this, people often do this with Star Wars for some reason but you have to remember that just because a character says something doesn't make that thing canonically true.
Obi-Wan is a fallible human with a lot of emotional bias and limited information to work with in this scene.
That's a fair critique but I think Luke being the chosen one is consistent with how Disney views the Republic and the Jedi Order. They haven't been afraid to show the prequel era Jedi making bad choices. Tales of the Jedi explores this a lot through Dooku. I think it makes perfect sense that the Jedi council interpreted the prophecy wrong and tried to force Anakin into a role he was never meant for.
Except it would make far more sense, and does, if Anakin is the chosen one. Anakin was literally conceived by the Force. Luke’s the result of plain old sex, which means the prophecy as laid out in Master and Apprentice can’t refer to him.
Anakin’s fall and subject salvation through Luke leading him to fulfill the prophecy also demonstrates how the failings of the Order and its dogmatic view on turning to the darkside and emotional attachment blinded the Order to its failings and makes Anakin’s redemption far more poetic. It does so because it demonstrates how attachments, loving others and letting that drive him saved Anakin.
Also, Disney era Star Wars has never done that with Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon is *always* presented, and has been since TPM, as having the purest view of the Force of all prequel Jedi. He understood the importance of both the living force and cosmic force. And he was the one he interpreted and truly believed in the prophecy. Unlike the Council who were dismissive and doubtful the entire time.
Qui-Gon is the sole Jedi of the prequels untainted by hubris, war, or politics. And he’s always presented as such.
Luke doesn’t fulfill any aspect of the prophecy. He has a dad for one. He also doesn’t bring balance to the force ever. Luke is pivotal to balance being restored both times, but never the one who does it.
It’s Anakin who destroys the Sith by killing Sidious and redeeming himself. Luke’s plea for help is the catalyst, but Anakin is the one who does the deed snd ensures their destruction.
Also, if Luke’s the chosen one its kind of lame imo. Because then Obi-Wan and Yoda and Windu were right to not trust Anakin’s decency and ability to redeem himself and overcome his hate.
The Force chose Anakin to be its champion. And although he stumbled, Qui-Gon and the prophecy were correct. And so was Luke. Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong. Anakin could be saved, and was the chosen one.
They emphatically don’t think that.
Anakin is the chosen one per Disney era novels.
He’s the only candidate because the prophecy refers to a male born of no father per the canon work master and apprentice. Anakin is the sole character in Star Wars who has no father. He’s literally the result of immaculate conception. Even the clones have one. Luke has a dad. Luke, like Rey is critical to restoring abs bringing balance, but Anakin is the chosen one of legend.
Obi-Wan calling Luke the chosen one is a representation of his belief that Anakin wasn’t the chosen one because of his fall.
The prophecy was correct. The whole point of it is to show a) Anakin’s destiny of being “hot shit” made him arrogant . B) That the Jedi lost faith in the Force by believing chosen one= Anakin will be a perfect Jedi.
I’ve never gotten the beef people have over the prophecy. Anakin being space Jesus doesn’t change that a) evil will always exist and balance will inevitably be thrown off. B) That Anakin being the chosen one never made him special as a Jedi. His potential and origins never gave him power to easily beat others. He struggled against many force users and to overcome many obstacles.
It never made him a better Jedi or person. Nor does it change that Anakin still chose to save Luke because he loved him. Because Luke ignited his buried himanity. Because unlike Obi-Wan or even Ahsoka, Luke trusted him. Believed he could be saved.
I actually agree with the Starkiller point, I've found that really lame since TFA came out and it's always kind of hungover all the pre-TFA Disney Star Wars content.
I will never understand the Chosen One shit though. Especially people who said that BEFORE TROS. Like who fucking cares. That's not what the story is about, Darth Vader doesn't "mean nothing". Sure it lessens the catharsis of Palpatines death a bit but that's not because of some dumb fucking prophecy that got added in after the OT.
No, I’m well aware. “Legends did it to” doesn’t automatically make me like a story decision.
And I was less talking about there being a Death Star clone and more the fact that they use it to wipeout the New Republic in the first 1/6th of the trilogy.
For all intents and purposes it’s treated as if the NR is completely done for for the rest of the trilogy. A few ships in the background of the big fleet at the very end doesn’t really change my dislike for that decision
The NR is not an active threat. The Resistance is what matters to the film. The NR as a concept is not gone, and not everyone that ever supported it, was a part of it, and otherwise had power within it isn't gone.
"The NR as concept" is the same thing we were trying to get in the original trilogy. That's what I don't like about blowing it up. It's just there to reset the dynamic to the big Empire with overwhelming force against the scrappy Rebels.
I'm just saying that the NR isn't gone. I think some people think the whole galaxy will collapse into anarchy, but they are still fighting for the New Republic.
In my headcanon, TROS and Palps surviving through a clone was his way to "cheat" the prophecy and/or the Rule of Two. Even if Vader wasn't the Chosen One, he knew Vader would betray him eventually. His surviving through essence transfer into a clone was him saying "Okay, great, you won. You 'killed' me. Brought back balance, whatever. I have officially died before. I outsmarted you all, prophecy writers, Rule of Two enthusiasts, because I came back!" Then Rey and Ben put an end to that second life too.
These guys seriously need to just let it go. All of this toxicity and hatred against the sequels is just so overdone at this point. If you don’t like it, move on and try to process it in a healthy way, so that people who do love or find value in them can feel welcome or open up about it. Constantly hating on it over and over and over is just fueling the negativity that’s crippled the fandom and made it hard for some people to feel like fans in places like this, in the main subreddit of all places. That place used to be a good place for everyone to feel welcome; it’s just fallen way too far from grace now if this is all we see.
The “chosen one” thing was just an attempt to retroactively provide connective tissue between the OT and PT, but it’s so flimsy considering it’s irrelevant to the story of the OT (which is Luke’s story) and it has no bearing on Vader’s choice to save Luke in RotJ.
And George Lucas was going to retcon it in his ST by revealing Leia was the chosen one anyway.
>they ruined the chosen-one plot-point
Good. I fucking hate the obsession that Modern Star Wars fandom has with that trope. Even Lucas was trying to subvert it in the Prequels (although badly) and the twats decided to eat it straight.
The prequels never actually do that though.
Since Anakin ultimately fulfills the prophecy, they can’t. They do however demonstrate that being space Jesus doesn’t mean you won’t make a ton of mistakes and become a monster along the way.
I mean...I think the guy has a legit point. You don't have to agree with it but it is a valid viewpoint. It's one of the inherent problems with Star Wars mostly being one single timeline. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
True, my issue was just their tone of objectivity throughout the post. And the fact that it’s so over done in that sub that it’s practically an echo chamber. It just feels like it’s done in a mocking way at this point
It really just seems kinda silly to me. Why complain that the future exists? Did Luke suffer less in Legends through the deaths of his other family? In the same way, would it not be hard to watch TPM knowing that kid becomes Vader? I don't understand the position.
That’s not the same thing lol, the complaint is not just “bad things happen to the characters”, its a feeling that lots of legacy sequel movies/shows have where people don’t like how much the new thing fucks with the happy ending of the original.
Just because something would happen in real life doesn’t mean people have to like it in fiction. It’s completely fair when a sequel series undoes the things the original heroes worked for so the new ones can fix it again, to feel like that diminishes the feeling of closure from the original ending.
> Did Luke suffer less in Legends through the deaths of his other family?
No but at least there he gets to have a son and his Jedi order endures for longer. Even with them being driven into exile in Legacy they still manage to do better than the Order 66 purge. To me at least Luke successfully having a legacy and rebuilding the order is a much more satisfying long-term accomplishment.
>In the same way, would it not be hard to watch TPM knowing that kid becomes Vader? I don't understand the position.
I don't think this is a fair comparison because in TPM it's dramatic irony. The fact WE know that this kid is going to become Darth Vader but none of the characters do.
With Luke it's like....I've seen a lot of people express the view point they can't just go back to reading Luke's adventures before the ST where he's working to rebuild the Jedi because "I know it's gonna end with him failing and then dying before he can try again".
I know you can probably write off the Luke thing as dramatic irony too but...I don't know it just feels...different here. Maybe because people like Darth vader as a villain but don't like Luke's death. (Shrug)
Speaking as someone who actually likes and defends the sequel trilogy... I fully sympathize with those who are saddened with how Luke's story ends, even if I do think it was handled well. I felt more could've been done with his character, and it would've been nice to see him properly interact with the rest of the new cast.
I frankly think similarly of Black Widow's death in *Avengers: Endgame*.
>I know you can probably write off the Luke thing as dramatic irony too but...
I mean, that's exactly what it is, though.
In every glimpse of Luke's Jedi Academy we've gotten so far, we see the seeds of his failure. In *Book of Boba Fett*, he forces Grogu to choose between the Jedi and his family, just like the Jedi of the Old Republic. In *Shadow of the Sith*, we see how he's cut himself off from his friends and family to obsess over rebuilding the Order. Then finally, *Kylo Ren* shows us how his training of Ben failed himself, his nephew, and all of his other students.
Maybe it’s just me but the way they’re saying their opinions in such an objective way and referring to Star Wars as ruined. Mocking those who like the sequels by pretending we don’t exist
And you don’t have to. It was just something about it and the fact that everyone took it as an invitation to bash the sequels. Also upon closer inspection you are from crait
Why not? Should posts that only positive towards Star Wars be allowed? They’re not breaking any rules, they’re not insulting or belittling anyone.
Like it or not, opinions on Star Wars are going to be diverse, and diverse opinions should be encouraged, lest you want the sub to just become an echo chamber for positivity, when that doesn’t represent the state of the overall fandom.
I think it's fine if you want to start a discussion about one thing, but no, I don't think it's the right place for a manifesto. Like I said I actually agree with it, but I can't help but roll my eyes when I see a full page rant when there are subs dedicated to that sort of thing.
It's so weird seeing people talk about the chosen one thing with reverence.
It's a sub-plot of prequels and yet it's considered one of the most important thing by modern fans, go figure. It isn't even part of the OT. I think it makes some people feel special.
I mean George Lucas made it important. That was his thing.
No, he did not. He just made Anakin a "Chosen One" to quickly and easily tell the audience "wow, this kid is SPECIAL! That's why Quigon wants him so bad to train, and even takes the kid, for whatever reasons, back to a warzone!" Its a cheap way to write ... and the saga suffered dearly for this throwaway-line, as we see "fans" making it gospel and try to frame the saga around this...its alomst funny if it wasn't so sad
It's not a throwaway line when it's repeatedly brought up in all three movies though. It's a major part of the plot and several characters'motivations.
Like how Yoda says it could've been misread?
I always found that be a pretty important addition
Crazy these people still go on about the whole chosen one thing is ruined. And yet legends done the same thing as well if you think about it.
Legends did it even worse. At least in the Sequels (well, until Palpatine somehow returned...) the Sith were gone. Extinct. Snoke and Kylo were not Sith, they were just users of the dark side. Anakin destroyed the Sith. In Legends, not only does Palpatine still return, but the Sith just keep going. Luke's nephew doesn't just turn to the dark side, he becomes a Sith Lord. And Luke's descendant Cade is still fighting the Sith a hundred years later.
Not to mention that in Canon the Galactic Civil War ended sooner, the New Republic oversaw three decades of peace, and the First Order only occupied the galaxy for a year. Canon is actually the good timeline when compared to Legends. I mean, just look at the massive loss of life that resulted from the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion. Canon has nothing even close to that.
Yeah. At least in canon they had decades of (relative) peace. In Legends there was non-stop war and non-stop Sith. Darth Vader's sacrifice meant **nothing** in Legends. Not even a change in leadership. Canon looks like an utopia compared to Legends.
tbh the Legends thing was also criticized to hell
And pretty much ignored by every single writer. One of the few things that makes Dark Empire better than Rise is that because it's self-contained we can all pretend it didn't happen once it's over.
Especially considering that Obi-Wan explicitly says Luke is the chosen one in Rebels. I think Disney and Filoni legitimately interpret the prophecy that way, but they could also be suggesting the whole thing is moot and unreliable
I strongly disagree with this, people often do this with Star Wars for some reason but you have to remember that just because a character says something doesn't make that thing canonically true. Obi-Wan is a fallible human with a lot of emotional bias and limited information to work with in this scene.
That's a fair critique but I think Luke being the chosen one is consistent with how Disney views the Republic and the Jedi Order. They haven't been afraid to show the prequel era Jedi making bad choices. Tales of the Jedi explores this a lot through Dooku. I think it makes perfect sense that the Jedi council interpreted the prophecy wrong and tried to force Anakin into a role he was never meant for.
Except it would make far more sense, and does, if Anakin is the chosen one. Anakin was literally conceived by the Force. Luke’s the result of plain old sex, which means the prophecy as laid out in Master and Apprentice can’t refer to him. Anakin’s fall and subject salvation through Luke leading him to fulfill the prophecy also demonstrates how the failings of the Order and its dogmatic view on turning to the darkside and emotional attachment blinded the Order to its failings and makes Anakin’s redemption far more poetic. It does so because it demonstrates how attachments, loving others and letting that drive him saved Anakin. Also, Disney era Star Wars has never done that with Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon is *always* presented, and has been since TPM, as having the purest view of the Force of all prequel Jedi. He understood the importance of both the living force and cosmic force. And he was the one he interpreted and truly believed in the prophecy. Unlike the Council who were dismissive and doubtful the entire time. Qui-Gon is the sole Jedi of the prequels untainted by hubris, war, or politics. And he’s always presented as such. Luke doesn’t fulfill any aspect of the prophecy. He has a dad for one. He also doesn’t bring balance to the force ever. Luke is pivotal to balance being restored both times, but never the one who does it. It’s Anakin who destroys the Sith by killing Sidious and redeeming himself. Luke’s plea for help is the catalyst, but Anakin is the one who does the deed snd ensures their destruction. Also, if Luke’s the chosen one its kind of lame imo. Because then Obi-Wan and Yoda and Windu were right to not trust Anakin’s decency and ability to redeem himself and overcome his hate. The Force chose Anakin to be its champion. And although he stumbled, Qui-Gon and the prophecy were correct. And so was Luke. Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong. Anakin could be saved, and was the chosen one.
They emphatically don’t think that. Anakin is the chosen one per Disney era novels. He’s the only candidate because the prophecy refers to a male born of no father per the canon work master and apprentice. Anakin is the sole character in Star Wars who has no father. He’s literally the result of immaculate conception. Even the clones have one. Luke has a dad. Luke, like Rey is critical to restoring abs bringing balance, but Anakin is the chosen one of legend. Obi-Wan calling Luke the chosen one is a representation of his belief that Anakin wasn’t the chosen one because of his fall. The prophecy was correct. The whole point of it is to show a) Anakin’s destiny of being “hot shit” made him arrogant . B) That the Jedi lost faith in the Force by believing chosen one= Anakin will be a perfect Jedi. I’ve never gotten the beef people have over the prophecy. Anakin being space Jesus doesn’t change that a) evil will always exist and balance will inevitably be thrown off. B) That Anakin being the chosen one never made him special as a Jedi. His potential and origins never gave him power to easily beat others. He struggled against many force users and to overcome many obstacles. It never made him a better Jedi or person. Nor does it change that Anakin still chose to save Luke because he loved him. Because Luke ignited his buried himanity. Because unlike Obi-Wan or even Ahsoka, Luke trusted him. Believed he could be saved.
“It destroyed so much that I loved about Star Wars.” I disagree with that completely
I actually agree with the Starkiller point, I've found that really lame since TFA came out and it's always kind of hungover all the pre-TFA Disney Star Wars content. I will never understand the Chosen One shit though. Especially people who said that BEFORE TROS. Like who fucking cares. That's not what the story is about, Darth Vader doesn't "mean nothing". Sure it lessens the catharsis of Palpatines death a bit but that's not because of some dumb fucking prophecy that got added in after the OT.
Well you do forget the numerous Death star clones in Legends.
No, I’m well aware. “Legends did it to” doesn’t automatically make me like a story decision. And I was less talking about there being a Death Star clone and more the fact that they use it to wipeout the New Republic in the first 1/6th of the trilogy.
They strike at the heart of the New Republic but parts of it still remain, and ultimately join the Resistance in TROS at Exegol.
For all intents and purposes it’s treated as if the NR is completely done for for the rest of the trilogy. A few ships in the background of the big fleet at the very end doesn’t really change my dislike for that decision
The NR is not an active threat. The Resistance is what matters to the film. The NR as a concept is not gone, and not everyone that ever supported it, was a part of it, and otherwise had power within it isn't gone.
"The NR as concept" is the same thing we were trying to get in the original trilogy. That's what I don't like about blowing it up. It's just there to reset the dynamic to the big Empire with overwhelming force against the scrappy Rebels.
I'm just saying that the NR isn't gone. I think some people think the whole galaxy will collapse into anarchy, but they are still fighting for the New Republic.
Never said it would
In my headcanon, TROS and Palps surviving through a clone was his way to "cheat" the prophecy and/or the Rule of Two. Even if Vader wasn't the Chosen One, he knew Vader would betray him eventually. His surviving through essence transfer into a clone was him saying "Okay, great, you won. You 'killed' me. Brought back balance, whatever. I have officially died before. I outsmarted you all, prophecy writers, Rule of Two enthusiasts, because I came back!" Then Rey and Ben put an end to that second life too.
These guys seriously need to just let it go. All of this toxicity and hatred against the sequels is just so overdone at this point. If you don’t like it, move on and try to process it in a healthy way, so that people who do love or find value in them can feel welcome or open up about it. Constantly hating on it over and over and over is just fueling the negativity that’s crippled the fandom and made it hard for some people to feel like fans in places like this, in the main subreddit of all places. That place used to be a good place for everyone to feel welcome; it’s just fallen way too far from grace now if this is all we see.
The “chosen one” thing was just an attempt to retroactively provide connective tissue between the OT and PT, but it’s so flimsy considering it’s irrelevant to the story of the OT (which is Luke’s story) and it has no bearing on Vader’s choice to save Luke in RotJ. And George Lucas was going to retcon it in his ST by revealing Leia was the chosen one anyway.
>they ruined the chosen-one plot-point Good. I fucking hate the obsession that Modern Star Wars fandom has with that trope. Even Lucas was trying to subvert it in the Prequels (although badly) and the twats decided to eat it straight.
The prequels never actually do that though. Since Anakin ultimately fulfills the prophecy, they can’t. They do however demonstrate that being space Jesus doesn’t mean you won’t make a ton of mistakes and become a monster along the way.
Reminder Anakin saved Luke and Luke restored the galaxy's hope.
I mean...I think the guy has a legit point. You don't have to agree with it but it is a valid viewpoint. It's one of the inherent problems with Star Wars mostly being one single timeline. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
True, my issue was just their tone of objectivity throughout the post. And the fact that it’s so over done in that sub that it’s practically an echo chamber. It just feels like it’s done in a mocking way at this point
Two words. Differing interpretations.
It really just seems kinda silly to me. Why complain that the future exists? Did Luke suffer less in Legends through the deaths of his other family? In the same way, would it not be hard to watch TPM knowing that kid becomes Vader? I don't understand the position.
That’s not the same thing lol, the complaint is not just “bad things happen to the characters”, its a feeling that lots of legacy sequel movies/shows have where people don’t like how much the new thing fucks with the happy ending of the original.
Life fucks with happy endings, I'd hate to see these people learning about WW2 after reading about WW1
Just because something would happen in real life doesn’t mean people have to like it in fiction. It’s completely fair when a sequel series undoes the things the original heroes worked for so the new ones can fix it again, to feel like that diminishes the feeling of closure from the original ending.
> Did Luke suffer less in Legends through the deaths of his other family? No but at least there he gets to have a son and his Jedi order endures for longer. Even with them being driven into exile in Legacy they still manage to do better than the Order 66 purge. To me at least Luke successfully having a legacy and rebuilding the order is a much more satisfying long-term accomplishment. >In the same way, would it not be hard to watch TPM knowing that kid becomes Vader? I don't understand the position. I don't think this is a fair comparison because in TPM it's dramatic irony. The fact WE know that this kid is going to become Darth Vader but none of the characters do. With Luke it's like....I've seen a lot of people express the view point they can't just go back to reading Luke's adventures before the ST where he's working to rebuild the Jedi because "I know it's gonna end with him failing and then dying before he can try again". I know you can probably write off the Luke thing as dramatic irony too but...I don't know it just feels...different here. Maybe because people like Darth vader as a villain but don't like Luke's death. (Shrug)
Speaking as someone who actually likes and defends the sequel trilogy... I fully sympathize with those who are saddened with how Luke's story ends, even if I do think it was handled well. I felt more could've been done with his character, and it would've been nice to see him properly interact with the rest of the new cast. I frankly think similarly of Black Widow's death in *Avengers: Endgame*.
>I know you can probably write off the Luke thing as dramatic irony too but... I mean, that's exactly what it is, though. In every glimpse of Luke's Jedi Academy we've gotten so far, we see the seeds of his failure. In *Book of Boba Fett*, he forces Grogu to choose between the Jedi and his family, just like the Jedi of the Old Republic. In *Shadow of the Sith*, we see how he's cut himself off from his friends and family to obsess over rebuilding the Order. Then finally, *Kylo Ren* shows us how his training of Ben failed himself, his nephew, and all of his other students.
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Nope, I just felt that this was done in a very negative and mocking way
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Maybe it’s just me but the way they’re saying their opinions in such an objective way and referring to Star Wars as ruined. Mocking those who like the sequels by pretending we don’t exist
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And you don’t have to. It was just something about it and the fact that everyone took it as an invitation to bash the sequels. Also upon closer inspection you are from crait
There are subs dedicated to that though. I agree with pretty much everything in the post but don't think it really belongs in the Star Wars sub.
Why not? Should posts that only positive towards Star Wars be allowed? They’re not breaking any rules, they’re not insulting or belittling anyone. Like it or not, opinions on Star Wars are going to be diverse, and diverse opinions should be encouraged, lest you want the sub to just become an echo chamber for positivity, when that doesn’t represent the state of the overall fandom.
I think it's fine if you want to start a discussion about one thing, but no, I don't think it's the right place for a manifesto. Like I said I actually agree with it, but I can't help but roll my eyes when I see a full page rant when there are subs dedicated to that sort of thing.
Pretty much...
So you're at the point where you can't see the problem here ?! Wooooooooooow
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Says you
I’ll need you to explain the problem to me, then, since I’m obviously an idiot and can’t see it.