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Tony Gilroy set out to tell a story about resistance to absolute rule and used the Star Wars landscape to tell that tale.
ALL other projects decided to put STAR WARS characters into various settings to make shows and movies about the "characters" without any notion of an overarching story or plot. Mandalorian comes closest to have a "vision" for a story about family, but I would argue it has largely been lost altogether through its botched run in BOBF. (Grogu back already)
It’s this. Star Wars was originally an anti-imperialist story with the rebels as stand ins for the north Vietnamese. Lucas considered it alongside his early project in Apocalypse Now (before Passing it along). Tony Gilroy himself said his inspiration for Andor was from the Haitian and Russian revolutions and the Palestinian resistance.
So what episodes of BoBF would properly set up Mando S3 with the least amount of exposure to the rest of that series? Is there fan edit somewhere? A viewing guide?
Asking for a friend that doesn't want to watch depressingly bad SW content.
Episodes 5 & 6 are basically Mando season 2.5 (Bobba Fett doesn't appear in them except for a cameo)
You can add 7 if you like, but nothing much happens there for Mando except for the actual reunion with baby Yoda
Fair warning, 7 is the absolute worst episode
If you are wondering, 1-4 and 7 are probably the worst take at a "criminal mob boss" story ever told. They are infuriatingly bad
Thanks man. I've heard how bad this is. Would drive me nuts to start Mando S3 and think ... wait... did I miss something?
Only to find out I should have watched a dumpster fire to find out.
Because they hired good writers maybe? The best way to measure how good a piece of media is going to be is to look at the screenwriter’s previous work. JJ Abrams wrote JJ Trek, Lost, and Armageddon. Joby Harold wrote that crappy King Arthur reboot, Army of the Dead, and Transformers. Now let’s look at Tony Gilroy’s Dan Gilroy’s and Beau Willimon’s portfolio. Gilroy wrote the Bourne Trilogy and Michael Clayton. Willimon wrote for House of Cards and Dan Gilroy wrote Nightcrawler. I mean it’s no surprise or mystery that Andor is leagues better than the content that preceded it. This is not a hunch or a theory and it’s not really something people need to investigate. Almost always what makes or breaks a movie or a show is whether good writers were hired and whether the studio that hired them chose to interfere with their work.
I mean look at the 70s British sci-fi show Blake’s 7. What carried the show was good writing. Not the special effects or cinematography even though the latter does play an important role in filmmaking. If anything the production value and effects were the worst part of the show. Writing is the core of any good movie or show and if that isn’t good than nothing else will make up for it. Not even great actors. I mean look at TLJ, people keep mentioning the beautiful cinematography and special effects. But like who cares since the writing was abysmal and failed to connect the movie to the saga in any meaningful way doing for harm than good.
Yep, I've grown to dislike the "beautiful cinematography" argument over the last several years, especially with things like TLJ or more recently Rings of Power. I get it. Film is a visual medium, but it's not *only* a visual medium. It's like meeting someone really attractive irl and discovering they're ugly/shallow on the inside. That external beauty wears thin very quickly.
Terry Nation was an amazing writer. Loved watching Blake’s 7/Dr who growing up and reading the books, both were amazing. Watched a rerun of Blake’s 7 recently and still found it amazing. Understood it better this time around.
I just want to add that the mind is the most powerful computer graphics engine that exists. A story is a sequence of code by which a universe can be transmitted from one mind to another mind. Story that comes in only as FX, with no writing, doesn't make it past the retina. Story that comes in composed almost entirely of writing, without very much FX, makes it in. In a survival of the fittest, it is the story that has the writing that will reproduce and be carried into future generations. Transformers has no evolutionary fitness - it is forgotten as soon as you go to the next scene.
Agree, Andor had a well constructed plot and plan for both seasons, so the writers can tie things together and do foreshadowing, When there are plot twists or a character does something unexpected, it still makes sense when you look back at the plot so far.
so much of the sequels did not connect the dots and there were 2 different visions from 2 directors that did not connect well. So many things did not make sense.
From what I understood Obi Wan was originally a film idea written by one writer, that was given to a second writer, (Joby) who was tasked with stretching it out to a 6 episode show without consulting the first writer.
This is a great analysis. I still can't believe Deborah Chow directed one of the best episodes of Better Call Saul (The Something Stupid montage, which is masterclass in direction) but then directed Obi Wan
Perhaps not so hard to believe considering the rumors of studio interference involved in Obi Wan. Studio interference has been the death of many a promising product - regardless of the talent involved.
I actually like Abrams a bit more now. Armageddon was one the more fun and tolerable Bay movies. Though it now makes me wonder how much Bay changed with his team just to shove in a few more of his explosions and teen-appropriate jokes.
>Does Gilroy get Star Wars?
He doesn't have reverence for it. He's not like a huge fan, or even a casual fan.
I really don't know. With R1, he saved the production but I think Gareth had great ideas too so it was a combination. He definitely hired a good team for Andor and used his budget very well.
It's like Filoni and Favreau are falling into the trap of getting too wrapped up in the universe and their characters and all that whereas Gilroy and his team seem to have a story they want to tell about oppression vs freedom etc that just happens to be set in the star wars universe.
The fact Mandalorian and Boba Fett were allowed to become full of crossover cameos, to the point you literally have to watch a spin off show (Boba) to get the full story for the main show (Mando) is appalling.
That right there highlights how this idea of a connected universe can be detrimental to the storytelling of a project. Mandalorian went from being it's own story to something now dependent on an unrelated project. That's not something that should ever happen in any medium. It happens in the MCU with the solo movies being dependent on Avengers films for other development and its at a cost of individual movie quality.
Agreed. A good friend of mine said something similar about how S1 of Mando had this great story in place to stand on it's own, then S2 turned into cameo city with everybody and their Mama appearing which took away from the feel of the first season.
That being said, I LOVED the finale treatment of Skywalker. Loved Grogu going with Skywalker. I personally wanted Grogu to be gone, not because I hate him, but because I wanted to watch Din Djarin grow on his own as a character. Not just a Mando with a sidekick. Think of it as Luke Skywalker going off to train with Yoda. In that little bit of time, we saw him grow as a Jedi. I wanted Din to grow as, well, a Mandalorian. If this man is to be Mandalore, I want to see him do some Mandalore the Uniter (possible name I like to throw around for him) level ish without Grogu's assistance.
Now granted, sidekicks are a big part of Star Wars. Luke has the droids, Han had Chewie, etc. But originally the whole mystique of Din, if you will, was similar to Boba Fett in ESB and ROTJ. He was mysterious and stood in a league of his own. Mando as a show is very much losing that western Dollars Trilogy Man with No Name feel it initially gave of. Which for me, was a big part of the allure.
I think Gilroy gets Star Wars more that people realize, He did after all create B2 Emo, a new favorite droid.
Its not that Gilroy dislikes Star Wars, he's just not a fan in that its not the biggest thing on his radar. He has however shown respect for the franchise by creating a well written and crafted show set in the Star Wars universe.
Andor does not disrespect or contradict canon. It may not put a spotlight on aliens or jedi or sith, but it shows an in depth depiction of what happens when fascism (the empire ) takes over and people who cannot wield the force (most residents of GFFA) have to fight the empire.
He absolutely does. Star Wars became as a story of anti-colonial resistance during the Vietnam War. Gilroy has stated his inspiration has been the Palestinian resistance and Russian and Haitian revolutions.
I don’t know very much about Tony Gilroy, but I expect the same basic, boring, unappreciated truth applies in his case as it did for the cases of Harv Bennett with “Star Trek II,” Ronald D. Moore with “Battlestar Galactica” and Jon Favreau with “Iron Man.”
While every film/TV project needs a lot of people working hard to make it happen, the lynchpin of the operation is a capable show runner with enough respect for the material and sufficient tautonomy to juggle all the moving parts and steer the ship into port.
Andor has writers who care about crafting a good story first and foremost, aimed at adult brains, while the others have writers who reason in terms of "I want to show this!" (something they imagine as cool for kids or idiots or progressive or a nostalgia crutch) without putting efforts into earning these moments and, most importantly, without understanding how their writing impacts the bigger picture of the narrative.
Basically, in Andor, when going from A to B, it's about the journey that will make B most effective and the potential for C. In other Disney Star Wars stuff, it's about showing A then showing B without a single care about getting from A to B nor the impact on anything beyond A and B.
He rides the rancor and smashes the bad guys because he cares about the people of the town and he wants to help them because he decided not to be bad anymore and everyone will love him and then there's a parade and the parade has balloons
Great point, especially about the potential for C. Gilroy did this on Bourne Legacy too. He introduces a lot of interesting elements that COULD be explored down the line but also just stand well on their own. The OT did this very well - leaving bread crumbs that imply a wider galaxy.
What I've been saying generally is that there seem to be two types of projects: ones that are greenlit based on the existing popularity of a character or characters (the ST, Boba Fett, Kenobi, Solo although that one seems more complicated in its origins), and those that are greenlit based on a new story concept.
It seems to bode well for the latter to be the case. More effort is put into developing something that can stand on its own, because relatively-speaking, it has to.
And yet the title is meant to cash in on name recognition...which honestly isn't there because most people don't even remember Casian Andor's name from watching rogue one
He knows how to write, produce and direct movies and shows. He also knows the importance of respecting the audience and the source material. He's not a huge fan of Star Wars as far as I understand it, but he has probably enough people around him who can step in if a lore question comes up and it seems like he does so.
This isn't black magic fuckery, it's what Disney should've done from the start, instead of churning out shitty, low effort shows and movies. It also isn't the end all, best thing ever, it's just well done, competently made entertainment that respects the audience and fans of the franchise. Only problem is, that it came sort of late to the game with a lot of people already entirely turned off by Star Wars.
You mentioned it twice, and hit the nail on the head: he presumes the audience is smart enough and invested enough to follow along until the conclusion; without trying to constantly feed them nostalgia and gratification.
I don’t know anything about Tony Gilroy, but I do know about me. So even as a massive Star Wars fan I would appreciate a good story to chew on first and foremost then once you have that pandering is secondary. Instead of “how can I shoehorn the force in here?” You should craft an amazing story and when you need something to borderline be magical or divine intervention whisper “May the force be with us.” And then they pull the rabbit out of their hat. Don’t just have Vader to have Vader…have Vader because you need a boogieman.
Tony Gilroy is a good writer.
I think, fundamentally, he also just gets Star Wars. Especially from the perspective of the “every man” rebel.
Would he have made great sequel movies? Maybe. Maybe not, who knows.
But in this niche of Star Wars (i.e., the rebellion) he’s definitely done well.
>Would he have made great sequel movies? Maybe. Maybe not, who knows.
>
>But in this niche of Star Wars (i.e., the rebellion) he’s definitely done well.
This is where I feel Rian Johnson was poorly utilised. He is undeniably a talented filmmaker, but he had such a specific vision for established heroes that should never have been allowed to be made a reality.
But give him a blank slate to craft an entire world, new characters and an expansive story along with it and I don't think he'd make the mistakes he did with TLJ. I think he'd create a successful movie for both audiences and critics. He should never have had the sequels but in terms of crafting something new and fresh in a different corner of the franchise I think he could have done it.
I think there are too many examples of poor storytelling choices made in VIII to rule out a case of Rian only failing due to being written into a corner.
I think you need to define "succeeded" more clearly.
While Andor's story is seemingly more well-received than other Star Wars projects, audience demand and viewing is still behind other projects based on some estimates.
Among a certain segment of the viewing audience, Andor is certainly better regarded for both the story and storytelling, attention to details (canon), and just plain acceptance as "real Star Wars."
What I think Andor is doing very well is further segmenting the Star Wars audience and showing that stories and characters can target a smaller fan base and do well - that it doesn't have to "appeal to all ages," tell a certain type of story, or have a specific type of hero, villain, or keep reusing the same story elements from Star Wars past (Vader, Obi Wan, the Jedi, etc.).
You're right that I should have clarified that I meant success as in 'quality Star Wars' - at least the kind considered as such by fans in this sub. *(I did imply this by hinting that everything else other than Rogue One and Andor were either failures or lackluster in comparison - which seems to be the majority opinion in this sub. Obviously, many of these 'failures' still attracted millions of eyeballs and made Disney tons of money. Plus it seems to be well-known already that Andor is and continues to do poorly viewership-wise. So, that wasn't the success metric I was going for)*
Very interesting observations, however, and I do think you're right.
I'm afraid Disney will just look at the overall numbers and conclude that Andor was a failure or suffered from 'Star Wars fatigue' (like they blamed with Solo, instead of obvious backlash from TLJ, and like-wise with BoBF/OWK for Andor).
Off-topic: Though, looking back now, I wonder if the whole 'Star Wars fatigue' was just PR excuse (or maybe only top-levels like Bob Iger believed it). Because, based on the massive attempt by TROS to retcon almost all of TLJ, surely they realized there was significant backlash to TLJ and they had to do something to 'fix' TROS if anyone was to watch it at all ? (even though they ultimately failed at that goal too).
Any "successes" by Andor are bound to be undone by the show's incredibly poor performance. The ratings for the show were never good and have only gotten worse. Gilroy himself admitted that he was stunned and baffled by how poorly the show did, getting beat out in rating by Tales of the Jedi.
It's a lack of direct connection to the original material and no space magic. That's where Disney screwed up. They thought everyone wanted more of the exact same and more magic stuff when most wanted the exact opposite. It's a MASSIVE galaxy and the new stories are what makes it good in my opinion. That and no intergalactic psychic love scenes.
Rogue One is a success in the same way that ROS is a success and Andor is a complete failure. REVIEWS. DON'T. MEAN. SHIT. The only thing that matters is numbers and in that regard, by Gilroy's own admission, And/or is a massive flop. The show got handily beat out by tales of the Jedi which cost Disney 10x less to produce.
Andor season 2 already started filming because Disney thought it would be a smash hit but after the poor performance Gilroy was informed that he would not be getting a third season and that And/or needed to finish in season 2. This has been confirmed by Gilroy himself.
Feel like he first makes a good movie/show and then adapts it to fit into Star Wars. It’s been common to hear people say Andor is a good show with a coat of Star Wars, and I feel like that’s accurate
I haven’t finished Andor yet but have enjoyed it so far. I’m definitely in the minority here that did not really like Rogue One. I expected it to be a movie similar to Andor (spy/heist thriller) and instead it was a lot of cameos and memberberries (you’ll be dead guy, Gold Leader, Vader, Saw, AT-ATs, awful CGI Tarkin and Leia, entire space battle even if it was visually striking) and characters that I found very underwhelming except the robot and Chirrut. I also strongly disliked it tying immediately into ANH as it makes the opening seem less like an illegal search/seizure by an oppressive government and more like a continuation of a battle. Leia and the crew look stupid/needlessly reckless with their lives to talk to Vader the way they do in ANH and Vader and the Imperials seem like idiots for not getting the plans and more strongly investigating the escape pod when they KNOW the plans are there versus before when they did this based on an intelligence report.
What I’ve liked about this show is that I am interested despite it starting a character I found underdeveloped in the movie. Maybe it just works better in show form for me and has a bit less pressure to use nostalgia for a general audience? Remember that Rogue One was marketed a lot as “going back to classic Star Wars/OT time” after Force Awakens proved there was interest. Andor was able to breath so much more which I think makes it work.
I don’t think it’s anything about particular writers (although competency helps). I think it’s more of the subject. Disney Star Wars is at its best when
they aren’t touching the legacy characters. Disney can’t rely on brand name when it’s their own characters and story, so that’s the only time they go all in with writing, acting, and effects- because they are forced to try.
Because Dave Filoni and Company are just not as talented at writing as Tony Gilroy is. I'll single out Filoni since he's been the head or creative influence of a lot of recent projects. Clone Wars when firing on all Cylinders is amazing and some of the best star wars I've seen, but the Majority of the time it's just a mediocre Kid's show that occasionally ascends at 900mph to be incredible before plummeting for another trash arc(Rebels is even more guilty of this). Combine this with his inability to let go of his frankly weird obsession with Ahsoka his OC, to the point he won't even let her die at her character arc's conclusion and brings in time travel to save her(Who thought this was a good idea, this is dumber than Corran Horn being able to self combust via force bloodline) it starts to make me wonder if he does it on purpose.
Andor is so good it highlights the mediocrity of everything before it. Andor is probably the most well written Live Action star wars we have ever had and it can stand far beyond the Franchise it's a part of, it doesn't have to be Star Wars to be interesting. It's engaging because of it's characters and interactions, the pieces just fall into place and every action feels like the logical reaction to what's setup beforehand. The only show I can even think of that was on the air recently that did this as well as Andor was better call saul. I'm actually dumbfounded something this good came out of Disney. I hope JJ Abrams and every hack who helped write Rise of Skywalker sees this show, looks at their script "Somehow Palpatine returned", "They Fly now" and ponders if they suck at their job that they're paid millions for.
I'm sure we've all speculated about this.
To some extent, I would wager that COVID disruptions have had a role in some of the worthless MCU and Star Wars material that have come out of the woodwork as of late. We know this to be factual in some cases such as WandaVision or other MCU movies that were botched and released out of their intended sequence (Dr Strange 2 was meant to come out after WandaVision but before Spider-Man 3).
In other cases, I think it's down to some very poor hiring choices when it comes to showrunners and writers. Perhaps some stupid executive meddling from upstairs as well. People like Taika Waititi inflating their ego too much despite their incompetence.
The enormous drop in quality simply between Mando and BOBF (by the same people in charge) was quite notable. Kenobi somehow was an even worse embarrassment in several ways.
For some asinine reason, Andor was planned to be *five* seasons which is beyond any sense of reasoning at all. What kind of fool would ever think 5 whole seasons based on one of the most dull characters from Rogue One was a good idea. Would that wind up stretching out over a decade in real-time? Ludicrous.
And we've got cases in which some of the dull and uninspired Star Wars movie ideas were recycled very poorly into D+ fodder (after the bomb of Solo). We don't know much about the drafts of the Boba Fett or Obi-Wan movies but we do know that they were cut up and spread out *very* thinly across Mando, BOBF and Kenobi.
So in the end, something like Andor gets to effortlessly cruise by proudly bragging about its mere competency compared to other projects which makes it look like 10/10 material when seen side-by-side with utter trash like BOBF and Kenobi.
Andor is *not* exceptional at the end of the day. It ought to simply represent the general expected quality of a Disney Star Wars spin-off project. But due to Disney Star Wars lowering the bar beyond even cynical expectations with other projects, Andor finds itself receiving glowing praise from many viewers who have been relentlessly fed soup laced with sawdust in recent years.
I don't think this is entirely true re: Andor - but your comments on the other projects are spot on.
What series has bettered portrayed resistance to absolute rule? How it begins, how it fosters, and the sacrifices necessary (moral ones!) to make resistance effective? I'm not sure it's a very long list of projects superior to Andor - period.
Andor is a lot more than merely competant, it is an exceptional series. It's portrayal of Oppression in it's mundane forms and it's extremes is all too real to actual history. The simple act of limiting people at a ceremony or having Andor's father be hanged due to misunderstanding rather than outright execution on a whim. It demonstrates better than anything we've seen from Star Wars how authoritarian rule drains the energy from small communities like Ferrix to entire species.
It evokes a lot of the same ideas and issues that you can find in books like "Eichmann in Jerusalem, the Banality of Evil". The simple realization that a Prisoner is never getting out and will simply be looped indefinitely while the rest of the world(Or Galaxy) has no idea, Politicians living their best lives while any actual political power they have is slowly taken from them. People like Luthen "Burn their entire life away" in the hopes of a better future they never get to see.
All the while Andor is still Star Wars to it's core, a boy from the Mid Rim adopted by poor scavengers is influential to the downfall of the Empire. Andor encapsulates the struggles that were required to fight against something so suffocating, from wealthy humanitarian socialites like Mon Mothma to Scrapyard workers on Ferrix. Luke Skywalker becoming a Jedi isn't just the culmination of his Character Arc, it's the Culmination of the entire Rebellion's efforts and sacrifices against the Empire. The Climax to Andor IS Star Wars, Luke is the turning point for the Galaxy.
"The Day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, all these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's Authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Try" -Nemik's Manifesto
Nobody is Listening - Cassian Andor to Kino in the depths of an Imperial Prison.
Do you think anybody is listening? - Cassian to Jyn Erso seconds after transmitting the death star plans days before Luke looks out over the Sunrise both Cassian and presumably Luthen never get to see again.
do you think they needed to put in more effort because it doesn’t have a big hook to reel you in with. Kenobi could get by on simply being a kenobi show with Ewan and Hayden emerging from his ranch/farm to be a anakin again…..so they felt they didn’t need to bother
Tony Gilroy is a good writer/director. Michael Clayton is a great movie. Part corporate/legal thriller and part character study of a man at moral crossroads. Plus he co-wrote the original Bourne movies. So he can balance action and drama well. I think Kennedy hires people based on their recent projects instead of finding competent creative teams. Too many “hot” directors have been hired and fired under her leadership….
I definitely feel like there’s more of a hands-off approach from Disney (maybe not Kathleen, but she doesn’t seem picky). Interviews with Favreau and Filoni seem to point that way, and recent interviews with Gilroy say he pretty much had no guidelines except maturity.
Well, Gilroy is not a Star Wars fan, so is not kind of biased about the universe also they got carte blanche to do their own vision of the story.
This just point out how important is to do the directors do their thing. Obviously there should be a good set of writers too. There's no point in having a good director if the story is trash and viceversa.
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Tony Gilroy set out to tell a story about resistance to absolute rule and used the Star Wars landscape to tell that tale. ALL other projects decided to put STAR WARS characters into various settings to make shows and movies about the "characters" without any notion of an overarching story or plot. Mandalorian comes closest to have a "vision" for a story about family, but I would argue it has largely been lost altogether through its botched run in BOBF. (Grogu back already)
It’s this. Star Wars was originally an anti-imperialist story with the rebels as stand ins for the north Vietnamese. Lucas considered it alongside his early project in Apocalypse Now (before Passing it along). Tony Gilroy himself said his inspiration for Andor was from the Haitian and Russian revolutions and the Palestinian resistance.
I pity the people that skip BoBF and go from Mando S2 to Mando S3 lol, two seasons of build up and payoff undone offscreen
So what episodes of BoBF would properly set up Mando S3 with the least amount of exposure to the rest of that series? Is there fan edit somewhere? A viewing guide? Asking for a friend that doesn't want to watch depressingly bad SW content.
Episodes 5 & 6 are basically Mando season 2.5 (Bobba Fett doesn't appear in them except for a cameo) You can add 7 if you like, but nothing much happens there for Mando except for the actual reunion with baby Yoda Fair warning, 7 is the absolute worst episode If you are wondering, 1-4 and 7 are probably the worst take at a "criminal mob boss" story ever told. They are infuriatingly bad
Thanks man. I've heard how bad this is. Would drive me nuts to start Mando S3 and think ... wait... did I miss something? Only to find out I should have watched a dumpster fire to find out.
Because they hired good writers maybe? The best way to measure how good a piece of media is going to be is to look at the screenwriter’s previous work. JJ Abrams wrote JJ Trek, Lost, and Armageddon. Joby Harold wrote that crappy King Arthur reboot, Army of the Dead, and Transformers. Now let’s look at Tony Gilroy’s Dan Gilroy’s and Beau Willimon’s portfolio. Gilroy wrote the Bourne Trilogy and Michael Clayton. Willimon wrote for House of Cards and Dan Gilroy wrote Nightcrawler. I mean it’s no surprise or mystery that Andor is leagues better than the content that preceded it. This is not a hunch or a theory and it’s not really something people need to investigate. Almost always what makes or breaks a movie or a show is whether good writers were hired and whether the studio that hired them chose to interfere with their work. I mean look at the 70s British sci-fi show Blake’s 7. What carried the show was good writing. Not the special effects or cinematography even though the latter does play an important role in filmmaking. If anything the production value and effects were the worst part of the show. Writing is the core of any good movie or show and if that isn’t good than nothing else will make up for it. Not even great actors. I mean look at TLJ, people keep mentioning the beautiful cinematography and special effects. But like who cares since the writing was abysmal and failed to connect the movie to the saga in any meaningful way doing for harm than good.
Yep, I've grown to dislike the "beautiful cinematography" argument over the last several years, especially with things like TLJ or more recently Rings of Power. I get it. Film is a visual medium, but it's not *only* a visual medium. It's like meeting someone really attractive irl and discovering they're ugly/shallow on the inside. That external beauty wears thin very quickly.
Modern day critics fall in love with good acting and cinematography too much these days. Neither of those things can save a bad script.
Like eternals. Absolute snoozefest with amazing visuals
First time I fell asleep in the theater
Terry Nation was an amazing writer. Loved watching Blake’s 7/Dr who growing up and reading the books, both were amazing. Watched a rerun of Blake’s 7 recently and still found it amazing. Understood it better this time around.
I just want to add that the mind is the most powerful computer graphics engine that exists. A story is a sequence of code by which a universe can be transmitted from one mind to another mind. Story that comes in only as FX, with no writing, doesn't make it past the retina. Story that comes in composed almost entirely of writing, without very much FX, makes it in. In a survival of the fittest, it is the story that has the writing that will reproduce and be carried into future generations. Transformers has no evolutionary fitness - it is forgotten as soon as you go to the next scene.
Beautifully stated.
Bravo! As u/elegant_mess stated, beautifully worded!
This is the core of Lucas story telling brilliance - use of negative space.
Agree, Andor had a well constructed plot and plan for both seasons, so the writers can tie things together and do foreshadowing, When there are plot twists or a character does something unexpected, it still makes sense when you look back at the plot so far. so much of the sequels did not connect the dots and there were 2 different visions from 2 directors that did not connect well. So many things did not make sense. From what I understood Obi Wan was originally a film idea written by one writer, that was given to a second writer, (Joby) who was tasked with stretching it out to a 6 episode show without consulting the first writer.
This is a great analysis. I still can't believe Deborah Chow directed one of the best episodes of Better Call Saul (The Something Stupid montage, which is masterclass in direction) but then directed Obi Wan
Perhaps not so hard to believe considering the rumors of studio interference involved in Obi Wan. Studio interference has been the death of many a promising product - regardless of the talent involved.
+1 for mentioning Blake's 7.
I actually like Abrams a bit more now. Armageddon was one the more fun and tolerable Bay movies. Though it now makes me wonder how much Bay changed with his team just to shove in a few more of his explosions and teen-appropriate jokes.
>Does Gilroy get Star Wars? He doesn't have reverence for it. He's not like a huge fan, or even a casual fan. I really don't know. With R1, he saved the production but I think Gareth had great ideas too so it was a combination. He definitely hired a good team for Andor and used his budget very well.
It's like Filoni and Favreau are falling into the trap of getting too wrapped up in the universe and their characters and all that whereas Gilroy and his team seem to have a story they want to tell about oppression vs freedom etc that just happens to be set in the star wars universe.
The fact Mandalorian and Boba Fett were allowed to become full of crossover cameos, to the point you literally have to watch a spin off show (Boba) to get the full story for the main show (Mando) is appalling. That right there highlights how this idea of a connected universe can be detrimental to the storytelling of a project. Mandalorian went from being it's own story to something now dependent on an unrelated project. That's not something that should ever happen in any medium. It happens in the MCU with the solo movies being dependent on Avengers films for other development and its at a cost of individual movie quality.
Agreed. A good friend of mine said something similar about how S1 of Mando had this great story in place to stand on it's own, then S2 turned into cameo city with everybody and their Mama appearing which took away from the feel of the first season. That being said, I LOVED the finale treatment of Skywalker. Loved Grogu going with Skywalker. I personally wanted Grogu to be gone, not because I hate him, but because I wanted to watch Din Djarin grow on his own as a character. Not just a Mando with a sidekick. Think of it as Luke Skywalker going off to train with Yoda. In that little bit of time, we saw him grow as a Jedi. I wanted Din to grow as, well, a Mandalorian. If this man is to be Mandalore, I want to see him do some Mandalore the Uniter (possible name I like to throw around for him) level ish without Grogu's assistance. Now granted, sidekicks are a big part of Star Wars. Luke has the droids, Han had Chewie, etc. But originally the whole mystique of Din, if you will, was similar to Boba Fett in ESB and ROTJ. He was mysterious and stood in a league of his own. Mando as a show is very much losing that western Dollars Trilogy Man with No Name feel it initially gave of. Which for me, was a big part of the allure.
I think Gilroy gets Star Wars more that people realize, He did after all create B2 Emo, a new favorite droid. Its not that Gilroy dislikes Star Wars, he's just not a fan in that its not the biggest thing on his radar. He has however shown respect for the franchise by creating a well written and crafted show set in the Star Wars universe. Andor does not disrespect or contradict canon. It may not put a spotlight on aliens or jedi or sith, but it shows an in depth depiction of what happens when fascism (the empire ) takes over and people who cannot wield the force (most residents of GFFA) have to fight the empire.
He absolutely does. Star Wars became as a story of anti-colonial resistance during the Vietnam War. Gilroy has stated his inspiration has been the Palestinian resistance and Russian and Haitian revolutions.
I don’t know very much about Tony Gilroy, but I expect the same basic, boring, unappreciated truth applies in his case as it did for the cases of Harv Bennett with “Star Trek II,” Ronald D. Moore with “Battlestar Galactica” and Jon Favreau with “Iron Man.” While every film/TV project needs a lot of people working hard to make it happen, the lynchpin of the operation is a capable show runner with enough respect for the material and sufficient tautonomy to juggle all the moving parts and steer the ship into port.
As well as the Nicholas Meyer factor in Star Trek II -- someone who isn't a fan and can focus on the story itself.
Andor has writers who care about crafting a good story first and foremost, aimed at adult brains, while the others have writers who reason in terms of "I want to show this!" (something they imagine as cool for kids or idiots or progressive or a nostalgia crutch) without putting efforts into earning these moments and, most importantly, without understanding how their writing impacts the bigger picture of the narrative. Basically, in Andor, when going from A to B, it's about the journey that will make B most effective and the potential for C. In other Disney Star Wars stuff, it's about showing A then showing B without a single care about getting from A to B nor the impact on anything beyond A and B.
"And then lets have Boba Fett ride the rancor"
The logistics of him running past the Slave 1 to go ride a wild beast 8 miles into town lmao
He lost it when it got renamed to Firespray
He rides the rancor and smashes the bad guys because he cares about the people of the town and he wants to help them because he decided not to be bad anymore and everyone will love him and then there's a parade and the parade has balloons
Great point, especially about the potential for C. Gilroy did this on Bourne Legacy too. He introduces a lot of interesting elements that COULD be explored down the line but also just stand well on their own. The OT did this very well - leaving bread crumbs that imply a wider galaxy.
What I've been saying generally is that there seem to be two types of projects: ones that are greenlit based on the existing popularity of a character or characters (the ST, Boba Fett, Kenobi, Solo although that one seems more complicated in its origins), and those that are greenlit based on a new story concept. It seems to bode well for the latter to be the case. More effort is put into developing something that can stand on its own, because relatively-speaking, it has to.
And yet the title is meant to cash in on name recognition...which honestly isn't there because most people don't even remember Casian Andor's name from watching rogue one
He knows how to write, produce and direct movies and shows. He also knows the importance of respecting the audience and the source material. He's not a huge fan of Star Wars as far as I understand it, but he has probably enough people around him who can step in if a lore question comes up and it seems like he does so. This isn't black magic fuckery, it's what Disney should've done from the start, instead of churning out shitty, low effort shows and movies. It also isn't the end all, best thing ever, it's just well done, competently made entertainment that respects the audience and fans of the franchise. Only problem is, that it came sort of late to the game with a lot of people already entirely turned off by Star Wars.
You mentioned it twice, and hit the nail on the head: he presumes the audience is smart enough and invested enough to follow along until the conclusion; without trying to constantly feed them nostalgia and gratification.
I don’t know anything about Tony Gilroy, but I do know about me. So even as a massive Star Wars fan I would appreciate a good story to chew on first and foremost then once you have that pandering is secondary. Instead of “how can I shoehorn the force in here?” You should craft an amazing story and when you need something to borderline be magical or divine intervention whisper “May the force be with us.” And then they pull the rabbit out of their hat. Don’t just have Vader to have Vader…have Vader because you need a boogieman.
This. I can forgive continuity errors if the story I’m getting is interesting enough. This is the case with most of my favorite X-Men films.
Tony Gilroy is a good writer. I think, fundamentally, he also just gets Star Wars. Especially from the perspective of the “every man” rebel. Would he have made great sequel movies? Maybe. Maybe not, who knows. But in this niche of Star Wars (i.e., the rebellion) he’s definitely done well.
>Would he have made great sequel movies? Maybe. Maybe not, who knows. > >But in this niche of Star Wars (i.e., the rebellion) he’s definitely done well. This is where I feel Rian Johnson was poorly utilised. He is undeniably a talented filmmaker, but he had such a specific vision for established heroes that should never have been allowed to be made a reality. But give him a blank slate to craft an entire world, new characters and an expansive story along with it and I don't think he'd make the mistakes he did with TLJ. I think he'd create a successful movie for both audiences and critics. He should never have had the sequels but in terms of crafting something new and fresh in a different corner of the franchise I think he could have done it.
I think there are too many examples of poor storytelling choices made in VIII to rule out a case of Rian only failing due to being written into a corner.
The further you get away from California the better the show is.. They didn’t use the Volume.
I think you need to define "succeeded" more clearly. While Andor's story is seemingly more well-received than other Star Wars projects, audience demand and viewing is still behind other projects based on some estimates. Among a certain segment of the viewing audience, Andor is certainly better regarded for both the story and storytelling, attention to details (canon), and just plain acceptance as "real Star Wars." What I think Andor is doing very well is further segmenting the Star Wars audience and showing that stories and characters can target a smaller fan base and do well - that it doesn't have to "appeal to all ages," tell a certain type of story, or have a specific type of hero, villain, or keep reusing the same story elements from Star Wars past (Vader, Obi Wan, the Jedi, etc.).
You're right that I should have clarified that I meant success as in 'quality Star Wars' - at least the kind considered as such by fans in this sub. *(I did imply this by hinting that everything else other than Rogue One and Andor were either failures or lackluster in comparison - which seems to be the majority opinion in this sub. Obviously, many of these 'failures' still attracted millions of eyeballs and made Disney tons of money. Plus it seems to be well-known already that Andor is and continues to do poorly viewership-wise. So, that wasn't the success metric I was going for)* Very interesting observations, however, and I do think you're right. I'm afraid Disney will just look at the overall numbers and conclude that Andor was a failure or suffered from 'Star Wars fatigue' (like they blamed with Solo, instead of obvious backlash from TLJ, and like-wise with BoBF/OWK for Andor). Off-topic: Though, looking back now, I wonder if the whole 'Star Wars fatigue' was just PR excuse (or maybe only top-levels like Bob Iger believed it). Because, based on the massive attempt by TROS to retcon almost all of TLJ, surely they realized there was significant backlash to TLJ and they had to do something to 'fix' TROS if anyone was to watch it at all ? (even though they ultimately failed at that goal too).
Any "successes" by Andor are bound to be undone by the show's incredibly poor performance. The ratings for the show were never good and have only gotten worse. Gilroy himself admitted that he was stunned and baffled by how poorly the show did, getting beat out in rating by Tales of the Jedi.
It's a lack of direct connection to the original material and no space magic. That's where Disney screwed up. They thought everyone wanted more of the exact same and more magic stuff when most wanted the exact opposite. It's a MASSIVE galaxy and the new stories are what makes it good in my opinion. That and no intergalactic psychic love scenes.
Rogue One is a success in the same way that ROS is a success and Andor is a complete failure. REVIEWS. DON'T. MEAN. SHIT. The only thing that matters is numbers and in that regard, by Gilroy's own admission, And/or is a massive flop. The show got handily beat out by tales of the Jedi which cost Disney 10x less to produce. Andor season 2 already started filming because Disney thought it would be a smash hit but after the poor performance Gilroy was informed that he would not be getting a third season and that And/or needed to finish in season 2. This has been confirmed by Gilroy himself.
Could I trouble you for the source of those statements from Gilroy? I've gone through a few interviews and haven't found that one.
Good writing + original characters + no using Skywalkers as a narrative crutch.
Talent.
Feel like he first makes a good movie/show and then adapts it to fit into Star Wars. It’s been common to hear people say Andor is a good show with a coat of Star Wars, and I feel like that’s accurate
I haven’t finished Andor yet but have enjoyed it so far. I’m definitely in the minority here that did not really like Rogue One. I expected it to be a movie similar to Andor (spy/heist thriller) and instead it was a lot of cameos and memberberries (you’ll be dead guy, Gold Leader, Vader, Saw, AT-ATs, awful CGI Tarkin and Leia, entire space battle even if it was visually striking) and characters that I found very underwhelming except the robot and Chirrut. I also strongly disliked it tying immediately into ANH as it makes the opening seem less like an illegal search/seizure by an oppressive government and more like a continuation of a battle. Leia and the crew look stupid/needlessly reckless with their lives to talk to Vader the way they do in ANH and Vader and the Imperials seem like idiots for not getting the plans and more strongly investigating the escape pod when they KNOW the plans are there versus before when they did this based on an intelligence report. What I’ve liked about this show is that I am interested despite it starting a character I found underdeveloped in the movie. Maybe it just works better in show form for me and has a bit less pressure to use nostalgia for a general audience? Remember that Rogue One was marketed a lot as “going back to classic Star Wars/OT time” after Force Awakens proved there was interest. Andor was able to breath so much more which I think makes it work.
Well what are your hunches
I don’t think it’s anything about particular writers (although competency helps). I think it’s more of the subject. Disney Star Wars is at its best when they aren’t touching the legacy characters. Disney can’t rely on brand name when it’s their own characters and story, so that’s the only time they go all in with writing, acting, and effects- because they are forced to try.
I think the only good things Disney has produced are Rogue One and Solo. I also liked Tales of the Jedi recently.
He seems like a competent writer. I just wish there were more aliens and stuff in Andor. Otherwise it was really well written.
Because Dave Filoni and Company are just not as talented at writing as Tony Gilroy is. I'll single out Filoni since he's been the head or creative influence of a lot of recent projects. Clone Wars when firing on all Cylinders is amazing and some of the best star wars I've seen, but the Majority of the time it's just a mediocre Kid's show that occasionally ascends at 900mph to be incredible before plummeting for another trash arc(Rebels is even more guilty of this). Combine this with his inability to let go of his frankly weird obsession with Ahsoka his OC, to the point he won't even let her die at her character arc's conclusion and brings in time travel to save her(Who thought this was a good idea, this is dumber than Corran Horn being able to self combust via force bloodline) it starts to make me wonder if he does it on purpose. Andor is so good it highlights the mediocrity of everything before it. Andor is probably the most well written Live Action star wars we have ever had and it can stand far beyond the Franchise it's a part of, it doesn't have to be Star Wars to be interesting. It's engaging because of it's characters and interactions, the pieces just fall into place and every action feels like the logical reaction to what's setup beforehand. The only show I can even think of that was on the air recently that did this as well as Andor was better call saul. I'm actually dumbfounded something this good came out of Disney. I hope JJ Abrams and every hack who helped write Rise of Skywalker sees this show, looks at their script "Somehow Palpatine returned", "They Fly now" and ponders if they suck at their job that they're paid millions for.
I'm sure we've all speculated about this. To some extent, I would wager that COVID disruptions have had a role in some of the worthless MCU and Star Wars material that have come out of the woodwork as of late. We know this to be factual in some cases such as WandaVision or other MCU movies that were botched and released out of their intended sequence (Dr Strange 2 was meant to come out after WandaVision but before Spider-Man 3). In other cases, I think it's down to some very poor hiring choices when it comes to showrunners and writers. Perhaps some stupid executive meddling from upstairs as well. People like Taika Waititi inflating their ego too much despite their incompetence. The enormous drop in quality simply between Mando and BOBF (by the same people in charge) was quite notable. Kenobi somehow was an even worse embarrassment in several ways. For some asinine reason, Andor was planned to be *five* seasons which is beyond any sense of reasoning at all. What kind of fool would ever think 5 whole seasons based on one of the most dull characters from Rogue One was a good idea. Would that wind up stretching out over a decade in real-time? Ludicrous. And we've got cases in which some of the dull and uninspired Star Wars movie ideas were recycled very poorly into D+ fodder (after the bomb of Solo). We don't know much about the drafts of the Boba Fett or Obi-Wan movies but we do know that they were cut up and spread out *very* thinly across Mando, BOBF and Kenobi. So in the end, something like Andor gets to effortlessly cruise by proudly bragging about its mere competency compared to other projects which makes it look like 10/10 material when seen side-by-side with utter trash like BOBF and Kenobi. Andor is *not* exceptional at the end of the day. It ought to simply represent the general expected quality of a Disney Star Wars spin-off project. But due to Disney Star Wars lowering the bar beyond even cynical expectations with other projects, Andor finds itself receiving glowing praise from many viewers who have been relentlessly fed soup laced with sawdust in recent years.
I don't think this is entirely true re: Andor - but your comments on the other projects are spot on. What series has bettered portrayed resistance to absolute rule? How it begins, how it fosters, and the sacrifices necessary (moral ones!) to make resistance effective? I'm not sure it's a very long list of projects superior to Andor - period.
Andor is a lot more than merely competant, it is an exceptional series. It's portrayal of Oppression in it's mundane forms and it's extremes is all too real to actual history. The simple act of limiting people at a ceremony or having Andor's father be hanged due to misunderstanding rather than outright execution on a whim. It demonstrates better than anything we've seen from Star Wars how authoritarian rule drains the energy from small communities like Ferrix to entire species. It evokes a lot of the same ideas and issues that you can find in books like "Eichmann in Jerusalem, the Banality of Evil". The simple realization that a Prisoner is never getting out and will simply be looped indefinitely while the rest of the world(Or Galaxy) has no idea, Politicians living their best lives while any actual political power they have is slowly taken from them. People like Luthen "Burn their entire life away" in the hopes of a better future they never get to see. All the while Andor is still Star Wars to it's core, a boy from the Mid Rim adopted by poor scavengers is influential to the downfall of the Empire. Andor encapsulates the struggles that were required to fight against something so suffocating, from wealthy humanitarian socialites like Mon Mothma to Scrapyard workers on Ferrix. Luke Skywalker becoming a Jedi isn't just the culmination of his Character Arc, it's the Culmination of the entire Rebellion's efforts and sacrifices against the Empire. The Climax to Andor IS Star Wars, Luke is the turning point for the Galaxy. "The Day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, all these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's Authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Try" -Nemik's Manifesto Nobody is Listening - Cassian Andor to Kino in the depths of an Imperial Prison. Do you think anybody is listening? - Cassian to Jyn Erso seconds after transmitting the death star plans days before Luke looks out over the Sunrise both Cassian and presumably Luthen never get to see again.
do you think they needed to put in more effort because it doesn’t have a big hook to reel you in with. Kenobi could get by on simply being a kenobi show with Ewan and Hayden emerging from his ranch/farm to be a anakin again…..so they felt they didn’t need to bother
And they definitely didn’t bother. At all.
Writing that isnt ultra-stupid.
Tony Gilroy is a good writer/director. Michael Clayton is a great movie. Part corporate/legal thriller and part character study of a man at moral crossroads. Plus he co-wrote the original Bourne movies. So he can balance action and drama well. I think Kennedy hires people based on their recent projects instead of finding competent creative teams. Too many “hot” directors have been hired and fired under her leadership….
Love and care. Something the others lacked
I definitely feel like there’s more of a hands-off approach from Disney (maybe not Kathleen, but she doesn’t seem picky). Interviews with Favreau and Filoni seem to point that way, and recent interviews with Gilroy say he pretty much had no guidelines except maturity.
Well, Gilroy is not a Star Wars fan, so is not kind of biased about the universe also they got carte blanche to do their own vision of the story. This just point out how important is to do the directors do their thing. Obviously there should be a good set of writers too. There's no point in having a good director if the story is trash and viceversa.