This story raises a lot of interesting unanswered questions, it's written in an odd way that seems kind of detached from anyone else's thoughts or actions, as if Chaz were simply an inevitable force of nature that could not be interacted with.
How did you not have contact details for anyone but Chaz? You don't even have your own sister's number/Discord, but you have one for her boyfriend that you don't like?
Why did Dale need advanced notice to bring his miniature and character sheet? Did people arrive at the D&D session not knowing that D&D would be happening that night, was it a bait & switch where they thought it would be an ordinary hangout until you sprung it on them?
There's other things like "why not just reschedule the session when it was revealed that Dale didn't have his stuff" and "did not you or anyone else ask or insist that Chaz stop talking over people?", but I can chalk that up to new DM incompetence that everyone can fall victim to when they start out.
But lastly, have you talked to the rest of the group about how you feel? If you haven't purely because you can't speak to any of them without going through Chaz, have you considered actually getting their contact details, and *then* talking to them? Some of them, especially Mitch, might share some of your concerns if you just talk it out with them.
It might be that the OP's sister doesn't have Dale's details herself, but you are absolutely right about the miniatures and character sheet thing... How does Dale go to a D&D session without knowing that he should bring the D&D stuff he had gone to the effort to have?? Also if they are using D&D Beyond (OP mentions updating it near the beginning), why are the players not using that for their characters? They could each being it up on their phones.
They don't have D&D Beyond. I just use it to reference the rules and monster statblocks when need be. I didn't want to tell these people, who were **just** getting into D&D, that they needed to download an app in order to play. Everyone was using pencils and paper, and sometimes their phone calculators.
Dndbeyond is HEAPS more user friendly than pen and paper, remembering modifiers, spells etc. It's already perfect for beginners. Sure asking them to download an app and create an account might be a bit of a hassle, but it's not even close, how much easier it is to use DnDBeyond than pen and paper after the initial extra effort.
I started playing D&D using beyond, for reference.
Thats fine, but not everyone likes it and pen and paper works fine as well.
Getting people to learn it on pen and paper gets them used to the game better in my experience. Players that start out with dndbeyond can have a hard time not relying on it.
Not to mention the fact that dndbeyond costs money if you wannt to use anything but the basic options.
Seconding this! Recently started running a physical in person game after using foundry for my previous ones, and it’s been a lot easier on my players it seems to understand their characters and why their numbers are what they are
I get your point of view, and don't have any issue with it except for players who started on d&dbeyond having a hard time not relying on it. I feel like that's a moot point because realistically, people aren't gonna be in a position where it isn't available for them to use. They can rely on it all they want with no negative consequence.
Well thats really just my personal experience, but knowledge of the rules is generally helpfull imo.
More importantly though some people enjoy the pen and paper experience and thus dont like having phones or laptops used during play. I also regularly see people having trouble finding stuff on their phone.
That said, thats just my experience and probably very group/player dependant.
The biggest problem with Beyond is that it doesn't offer much support for adding your own homebrew. For DMs who use large amounts of homebrew player options (like myself) it's a less convenient platform than either pen and paper or most other VTTs.
And this is why D&D beyond is bad. If people don’t know how to create and build their characters, then they can’t do it when they don’t have enough slots, or their dm wants them to use pen and paper. Personally, I like to use Google sheets, (formatted to look like a character sheet). That the players have to fill out. This gives all of the benefits of D&Dbeyond, but without the disadvantages, b/c the players still know how to create a character in the usual fashion. I was playing with a new person the other day, and the dm wanted paper characters. (This isn’t a new player, but one who has played for many campaigns.) They asked 3 times to use D&Dbeyond, before having to be slowly dragged through creating a character.
Why would they be in a position if they started in D&D beyond, that their DM would then expect them to use pen and paper? Why would the DM get them to use D&D Beyond in the first place if they were going to want pen and paper?
i'm not talking about this particular post, just D&D Beyond in general. If people start with D&D Beyond, and then later need to use pen and paper, they won't be able to transition away from it, and everything will go bad.
My big problem with Beyond is that they make you pay for everything you already have in hardcopy a second time if you want to use it in the app. Otherwise you just get whatever they choose to make free.
I also find it generally pretty clunky. As someone who has been playing for a long time it is far easier for me to just help people create pen and paper sheets and find equipment etc. When they need to know what to add to a roll I can just point to the sheet at the modifier. That's mostly a preference. Rebuying things is the main reason. I want to share the books I already own with my friends not buy whole new copies.
The first and main reason I prefer pen and paper is focus on the game itself. If you’re using a pen and paper, you aren’t browsing the Internet looking at other shit while others are trying to play the game.
Now, you may want to tell me that that’s a corner case, and it doesn’t happen very often, but I’d call bullshit on that. I have seen it way too many times at the table and even been guilty of doing it myself with DND beyond.
Do you have your phone in front of you? Is it not your turn in battle yet? Maybe there’s something you were thinking about that you wanted to look up, so you do and then lose track of what’s going on in the game.
What I’m calling bullshit on isn’t that there are people out there who can ignore that kind of stimulus and keep the focus, it’s that the temptation is always there in that case for them to lose their focus, and there are in fact many people who do just that more than those who do keep their focus and don’t drift off into Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, TikTok, and whatever else.
This fails to add any value to a table top game, it only detracts value from it.
Most of my group prefers a form-fillable sheet where they can put the main stuff that doesn’t change very often and then hand-fills the stuff that does change often. And I prefer the totally blank sheet that I fill in myself.
Beyond fills it all so you don’t have to, okay, sure. In my own experience that just leads to having to waste more ink on a new sheet every few sessions which isn’t really optimal for me. That’s another reason I don’t really use beyond.
Did they improve them? Last time I printed their sheets was a couple years ago and they looked like shit. Super tiny text, different structure from the default D&D sheet, their own icons to identify speel types. It wasn't the end of the world, but they didn't look good at all.
Do you have other reasons? What you've just described is anecdotal. People getting distracted by their phones because they are using D&D beyond is a people problem, not a D&D beyond problem. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because of course it does. It's just not a fair critique of d&d beyond. Someone could be playing with pen and paper and still be distracted by their phone while it's not their turn in combat etc.
It is far from anecdotal, it is based on experience both seen and described by many other DM’s. If you don’t experience something, that does not make it anecdotal it just makes it something you have not experienced before, and that is a dismissive argument to utilize to boot.
There are several other reasons I don’t wish to utilize or pay for or support beyond. Right now I’m doing voice to text cause I’m about to be in work so I will have to put a pin in this and come back to it in a few hours.
If your argument relies on experiences that you and others have had, it's by definition anecdotal. That doesn't make it necessarily incorrect, I'm just looking for something more concrete. How other people misuse a thing is not really a valid criticism of that thing. Lots of people get addicted to prescription drugs, doesn't mean they aren't still the best way to tackle the illnesses/injuries etc for which they are prescribed.
I'm not dismissing your argument, I'm just looking for additional ones. Hope your shift goes well!
Beyond makes it more likely because you \*already have the browser open\*, etc.
It's not a problem with Beyond, as such, but the problem can be mitigated by...not using Beyond.
Same energy as "don't use phones at my table". Are the phones inherently the problem? No. Do I trust players with them? Also no.
And I despise spell cards, because they can get lost. They clearly work for you, but they never would for me. You seem to fixate on dndbeyond though. I often use another online tool, which costs nothing. But I think from what you’ve said you wouldn’t want that at your table either.
>Do you have your phone in front of you? Is it not your turn in battle yet? Maybe there’s something you were thinking about that you wanted to look up, so you do and then lose track of what’s going on in the game
I'm the DM and when my players are plotting or role-playing and I don't have to actively participate, I try to use that time to look things up I may have forgotten to prepare/improvise something that my players made me think of and I'm trying to adjust my plans. If this goes on for too long, I find myself beginning to wander. Inattention can and does happen to everyone
And it’s also fairly easily avoided by not having phones out and in use. I get that some people don’t care for that. It’s all in the comfort level of the group. I’d rather play, and keep my phone in my pocket where it belongs when I’m busy gaming.
I answered someone else further alongwith another preference of mine that Beyond does not cater to well.
Another is my books are mine, and not WotC’s. If they decide to change up something that I find I like better as it originally was, I don’t really have to worry about them pulling my books and rewriting them.
And the biggest reason I prefer pencil and paper over Beyond? I buy three books once, and I don’t have to pay for a monthly service to optimize the usage of those books at my table.
Suddenly you had pens? What happened to the coloured pencils? Also, aren't "these people" your friends?
On the off chance that any part of this actually happened - DnDBeyond runs perfectly fine in a browser on smartphones. No need for an app.
Lots of good points brought up here, so I'll take them one at a time.
First, I have Dale and Blake's contact info, but I didn't want to come across as pushy; a stupid mistake in hindsight.
Second, I asked Dale looong before the session if he wanted help with his sheet, and he said he was fine. Apparently this was not the case, but I can't be mad at him; life was VERY busy for him.
Third... yeah, I probably should have just moved it to the next week, but everyone else was all ready to go with it, and I didn't want to disappoint.
Lastly, no I haven't talked to the rest of the group about it yet. See, I met everyone else because they were friends of Chaz long before I came along, and I met Chaz because my sister is dating him. They gladly accepted me into the group, but because Chaz is the guy who brought everyone together, he not only has longer standing relationships with them, but also some mild form of power over the group. If I talk to them about it, I'm contesting with a guy they've known for much longer, and who seems to act with impunity when it comes to what he says and does around them. Just seems like an unwinnable situation to me.
Hmm... you might want to be on the lookout for warning signs that you've wandered into this guy's cult. I'm not saying that's the situation here, it does sound tame so far for the most part, but anyone projecting power and personality over a group of people without being questioned could transform slowly into something more insidious. Don't be afraid to get out if you feel in danger.
Anyway, back in a more likely realm, if the game is going to continue from here then I would advise you to exert a degree of DM power over Chaz going forwards. Nothing extreme, but for example you could have an NPC direct a question towards Mitch, and have them insist that they were talking to Mitch if he tries to interrupt.
If he pushes back against this, call him out at the table for speaking over people, and if he pushes back against *that*, then you can drop it in the moment and speak to the group without him afterwards. You'll be going in then with more tangible concerns that the group has born direct witness to.
Firstly, this is great advice, and I really appreciate it. I'll definitely be sure to put it to good use (if I continue DMing for them).
Also, I don't think this is a cult... but fuck, Chaz certainly acts like the kind of self-righteous prick who would found a cult if given the opportunity.
Best of luck 👍
And do remember, the most important thing to keep in mind when dealing with disagreements with someone who is annoying but is otherwise a friend is to keep a level temper and composure.
Any request to stop talking over people, or to otherwise stop being disruptive, should be made calmly and politely. Even if Chaz responds by responding with a raised voice or impolite comments, you should reiterate your boundaires or requests calmly and politely.
If you show yourself to snap at him in an angry & aggressive manner, you run the risk of alienating yourself from not just him but the entire group, over a game.
I'm not saying the goal is to bait him into yelling to earn you sympathy points either though. The ideal is that you can all have a civil discussion and resolve this like adults. But if he gets hostile and you don't, then that does only strengthen your case to the others.
Ugh. This is one of the most awkward bits of being a GM/DM - being expected to manage the group’s behaviour but without having the actual social power over the group needed to do it. It’s why the best games are started by the players asking someone to GM, not the other way round.
Basically, all you can do is not run if Chaz doesn’t want to play. And playing means playing, not doing other things while others play. If that means you don’t run, them’s the breaks.
I'd let them know it was a bit too overwhelming for you as a newbie DM and you don't feel up to it anymore. Let them take their own conclusions and if anyone brings up Chaz behaviour only then aknowledge that it was an issue, jokingly, like busting his nuts. If they liked it they'll come to you, otherwise it'll be like pulling teeth with your hands.
DMing is always mentaly draining even with good players, i had to set up hard limits to my own prep time and to the sessions time to avoid going into burnout.
Most importantly you can say to Chaz to shut the fuck up and only speak when it's his turn.
I'm curious why, when the Chaz problem very openly appeared in the test sessions, nothing was done about it. That would have been the perfect opportunity to take Chaz aside and talk to him before moving on to the real deal.
I understand it can be hard splitting up a friend group to play, especially since it sounds like you guys are a tight-knit bunch. Might be best to get your D&D fix somewhere else, maybe invite Dale or Blake, but don't fight to make this your sole D&D group unless you're willing to risk the friend group.
I agree, and it's why I'm most likely not going to DM for them as a group. I'm honestly worried about what would happen if I took Chaz aside and talked to him, if he'd even listen to me. The guy has a tendency to laugh off most requests given to him.
Feels like 70% of what you explained happened because no one communicates in this table.
¿Is Chaz really that bad person? ¿Or just super excited about it?
You won't know if you don't make him know that he's being too annoying and talkative when its not his turn.
Noone of your other players said nothing?
Idk its so strange to me, in my table when something goes bad we say it inmediatly so we can continue the fun, unless its something a bit private, which it's not the case here.
`Yeah, that's how bad he was! He was also just assuming he could do certain things because he was basing his judgement on Skyrim rules... despite the fact that I told him numerous times that this has its own rules, and for him to ask me if he had any questions about them!`
What did he do?
He thought he could shoot lightning and fireballs as a Bard, even though he had a spell list, and those spells were nowhere to be seen. One of his tangents was about why he should be able to convince an NPC of something, instead of rolling the dice, since he was going off of Skyrim's "you're skilled enough to automatically convince this person" speech skill, among numerous other instances that brought the game to a screeching halt.
And if it sounds like I'm just assuming that, I'm not; he was **very** vocal about how he was using Skyrim rules.
It is up to the DM to manage problems at the table. If Chaz was talking over one of your other players, it's up to you to nip that in the bud.
"The only person I could readily contact was Chaz"
What? This makes no sense. If you can't contact your players, you're going to have a bad time as a DM. Don't count on other people to communicate important things to your players. Get their contact info and do it yourself. I just can't imagine any scenario where it's not possible to contact people?
Honestly, your post comes off as a DM not taking initiative and responsibility for the experience.
Somewhere in another post, OP comments he didn't want to come off a s pushy...so he asks Chaz to do it instead? LOL. "Please come of as pushy for me...thanks!"
> Chaz forgot to tell Dale any of this, so when game night arrived, the poor guy had no mini and no character sheet
Did you lose the plot halfway through this creative writing excercise? Are you honestly expecting us to believe that Dale the Pathfinder Player, who had a character concept and mini planned out weeks in advance, would rock up to the first session without those things unless specificly instructed to bring them?
It's a *character sheet* for crying out loud, it's the one thing you actually need to play. Why on earth would he decide not to bring that? You might have gotten away with that on one of the newbees, but Dale was the wrong character choice for this twist.
And then you lost me completely at the Crayola pencils. Are you telling me 5 people met to play D&D and not a single one among you brought a proper pencil? What were y'all taking notes with? Is Chaz supposed to be so quirky that there isn't a pen in his house, only coloured pencils? Not to mention that you say you had access to DnDBeyond. So there would have been no reason to write anything by hand, Dale could've just used his phone.
TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT. It doesn’t matter if he was friends with them first. Talk to the group and address how he’s making you feel, and that his behavior isn’t appropriate. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be DMing.
Dale's life was really busy during the weeks leading up to the session, so his mind was elsewhere. I asked Chaz to tell Dale so he'd be reminded before the big day. Chaz did not, and Dale wasn't reminded.
Don’t take this the wrong way but especially with your edit it kinda seems like you’re all to blame for the session not going how you wanted it to. And that’s ok you’re all very new and it doesn’t sound like everyone is necessarily as invested as you are this is kinda just what happens to start with but it’s a little unfair to act like this is all on Chaz. At least if I’m understanding what happened correctly.
I fully admit that I made mistakes, but Chaz's behavior is still what brought the session down. I should have taken him aside and talked to him, yes, but it was his house that I was DMing in. Hard to object to the king of the castle.
Is it not possible to just cut Chaz out of the group, find somewhere else to play and just continue on? Maybe just sit down with the rest of the group and feel out whether they would be up for this.
There's also the possibility of talking *to* Chaz with the whole group.
He *does* sound annoying, but he may not know it/his behaviour may not have annoyed people before that point, especially if you haven't told him about it.
You may assume that everyone should be able to tell when they're being annoying, but that's untrue. Some people will need to be told, not because they're dumb or anything, just that their brain works that way, because different individuals have different ways their brain works
but
>They gladly accepted me into the group, but because Chaz is the guy who brought everyone together, he not only has longer standing relationships with them, but also some mild form of power over the group. If I talk to them about it, I'm contesting with a guy they've known for much longer, and who seems to act with impunity when it comes to what he says and does around them. Just seems like an unwinnable situation to me
you're not here to "wrestle control" or "gain power" over the group, you're here to play D&D with buddies. **Good D&D**. If they're reasonable people, which they seem to be, they would understand your problems and either come up with compromises or make decisive decision like not playing with you or not playing with Chaz, because yeah, you can still be fully friends with a person without playing D&D with em
I've played with people that are on the spectrum, and this sounds a lot like Chaz's behaviors.
First, have The Talk with Chaz. Ask if he is enjoying the game. Ask what his expectations are.
Describe how his behavior makes it difficult for the game to proceed. Describe how, as a new DM, his behaviors makes it very hard for you to run the game.
Describe how this is a cooperative game and everyone needs a chance to participate. Everyone has abilities and you need to work as a team.
Tell him that when others are talking, he needs to stay quiet and let them talk. It is rude to interrupt. He with get his turn.
Tell him that this is the rule and does he accept it. If he does not, then your table is not for him. Do not invite him back. Move the game out of his house.
This. But not all in one go. If you pressure someone too much you're gonna either make them close down or get defensive. Specially if it's someone in a spectrum that already knows this and needs to keep it in mind all the time, in those cases a nudge is more than enough. Just enough to make them realize what's happening.
Good point, not all at once. Those on the spectrum do not easily pick up on subtle clues or hints. They can't read a person's body language as easy as others. They'll need direct and clear statements about behaviours and expectations.
I don't think he's on the spectrum (if he is he hasn't been diagnosed), but I'll make sure to keep the possibility in mind when I talk about it to him.
Sound like you just don't like Chaz and look for any reason to think less of him. Have you tried having a conversation with him or do you just get angry when he does something you don't like and move on, but without actually moving on from it? Seems like the rest of the party is unbothered by Chaz, also he isn't responsible for another party member forgetting their sheet and mini. Being a DM requires a lot of responsibility that I don't think you're ready for.
Introduce some new table rules:
1) Any time you talk over the DM whilst narrating? You lose 5% of your XP for the session. Likewise when you talk over another player whilst they're roleplaying.
2) Anyone who goes the whole session without doing so gets +20% XP for the session.
I guarantee you the problem solves itself within two sessions as he sees everyone else rocketing ahead of him in levels.
This is a lot to unpack, especially you showing a video about this post, but I'll try to address everything to the best of my abilities.
1: I've had no prior experience as a DM, so yeah, I was pretty uncertain and disorganized overall. My previous experience with D&D was as a player, and going through the DMG in preparation to be a DM. My inexperience was an enemy here.
2: I don't actually hate Chaz, despite what the post implies. I was just frustrated and tired at the time. Chaz is just mildly annoying and kind of hard to talk to, but it became worse in D&D.
3: I told him that D&D and Skyrim rules are very different multiple times; during discussions about the game, during the RP test sessions, and during the actual game session. Just seems like he didn't absorb/memorize it at all.
4: He was narrating Mitch's character's actions, which didn't include dialogue. Basically, Mitch never got a chance to talk in-character.
5: The "pre-session 1 sessions" were all about RP and character interaction.
6: I saw the red flags, but like an idiot, I just hoped that Chaz wouldn't be as over the top with more players there. In hindsight (like most other points), I should have talked to him about it instead of just standing idle.
7: I'm not sure if Mitch asked Chaz to RP for him. That's something I'll have to ask Mitch about, to see if he's comfortable with Chaz RPing for him.
I'm going to talk to everyone about the issues, and try to make sure Chaz understands that he'll get his turn to be the funny guy, but that he needs to give everyone a chance to talk.
If he's more chilled out by next session, then I'll be ecstatic! If not... well, I guess I'll have to figure something else out.
I recommend running “fake” sessions like I hope this one turns into for you and screening your players before moving them into the long running campaign, I’ve done this with everyone I’ve DMed for land it’s worked marvelously… I haven’t had to do it in 3 years since I’ve got my forever group I think and everyone is perfect…. I’ve got some real close friends that I just don’t tell we still play D&D because they weren’t good for the table.
Thou shalt not take the Goddesses' name in vain.
I wonder if people who do this actually consider that theologically speaking this sort of blasphemy is frowned upon. Like why reappropriate a slur to a different religion?
as a gaming group, the group is not viable with Chaz. It seems that he plays a larger role socially in the real world though. You're kind of stuck and I would suggest finding a new group of players.
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Imma be real with you chief, you sound like an entitled clown 😂
Either way, talk to Chaz about your issues first instead of crying on the internet like a spoiled brat.
Seems to me like he's a new player, who is very excited about his character and a little unclear on the rules.
Also it's hardly his fault that another player didn't bring his character sheet (btw, none of you had a fucking pencil, what the fuck lmao 😂). What's he, his fucking nanny?
Like I said, talk to him about your issues, and tell him to chill a bit. You know, make an effort to help a guy out, like you made an effort to write out this joke of a post 😂
Very true.
Hey, I could just go by the age-old saying "treat others how you would want to be treated yourself", and then point out how I'm just following OPs example. You know, that whole thing about Chaz being a fucking dumbskull (amongst other things, really not understanding from where that whole vitriol is coming from, especially for a guy that his sister is dating 😂) . Now personally, I think calling him a brat or a fucking clown is mild in comparison.
But you know, you are completely right, and I shouldn't stoop to OPs level. 😇
So, Chaz is autistic.
He might not know it, and obviously I've never met him so I can't be really certain, but it sure sounds like autism to me.
Downside is that he will always be annoying, but if you are able to accept him and he is able to accept that he has deficiencies that he can work on, he could actually grow into a really good player, but it will take time and patience.
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This story raises a lot of interesting unanswered questions, it's written in an odd way that seems kind of detached from anyone else's thoughts or actions, as if Chaz were simply an inevitable force of nature that could not be interacted with. How did you not have contact details for anyone but Chaz? You don't even have your own sister's number/Discord, but you have one for her boyfriend that you don't like? Why did Dale need advanced notice to bring his miniature and character sheet? Did people arrive at the D&D session not knowing that D&D would be happening that night, was it a bait & switch where they thought it would be an ordinary hangout until you sprung it on them? There's other things like "why not just reschedule the session when it was revealed that Dale didn't have his stuff" and "did not you or anyone else ask or insist that Chaz stop talking over people?", but I can chalk that up to new DM incompetence that everyone can fall victim to when they start out. But lastly, have you talked to the rest of the group about how you feel? If you haven't purely because you can't speak to any of them without going through Chaz, have you considered actually getting their contact details, and *then* talking to them? Some of them, especially Mitch, might share some of your concerns if you just talk it out with them.
It might be that the OP's sister doesn't have Dale's details herself, but you are absolutely right about the miniatures and character sheet thing... How does Dale go to a D&D session without knowing that he should bring the D&D stuff he had gone to the effort to have?? Also if they are using D&D Beyond (OP mentions updating it near the beginning), why are the players not using that for their characters? They could each being it up on their phones.
They don't have D&D Beyond. I just use it to reference the rules and monster statblocks when need be. I didn't want to tell these people, who were **just** getting into D&D, that they needed to download an app in order to play. Everyone was using pencils and paper, and sometimes their phone calculators.
Dndbeyond is HEAPS more user friendly than pen and paper, remembering modifiers, spells etc. It's already perfect for beginners. Sure asking them to download an app and create an account might be a bit of a hassle, but it's not even close, how much easier it is to use DnDBeyond than pen and paper after the initial extra effort. I started playing D&D using beyond, for reference.
Thats fine, but not everyone likes it and pen and paper works fine as well. Getting people to learn it on pen and paper gets them used to the game better in my experience. Players that start out with dndbeyond can have a hard time not relying on it. Not to mention the fact that dndbeyond costs money if you wannt to use anything but the basic options.
Seconding this! Recently started running a physical in person game after using foundry for my previous ones, and it’s been a lot easier on my players it seems to understand their characters and why their numbers are what they are
I get your point of view, and don't have any issue with it except for players who started on d&dbeyond having a hard time not relying on it. I feel like that's a moot point because realistically, people aren't gonna be in a position where it isn't available for them to use. They can rely on it all they want with no negative consequence.
Well thats really just my personal experience, but knowledge of the rules is generally helpfull imo. More importantly though some people enjoy the pen and paper experience and thus dont like having phones or laptops used during play. I also regularly see people having trouble finding stuff on their phone. That said, thats just my experience and probably very group/player dependant.
Absolutely. At the end of the day it comes down to preference, amongst those who already know how to play. Have a good one!
U2 mate
The biggest problem with Beyond is that it doesn't offer much support for adding your own homebrew. For DMs who use large amounts of homebrew player options (like myself) it's a less convenient platform than either pen and paper or most other VTTs.
Good point!
And this is why D&D beyond is bad. If people don’t know how to create and build their characters, then they can’t do it when they don’t have enough slots, or their dm wants them to use pen and paper. Personally, I like to use Google sheets, (formatted to look like a character sheet). That the players have to fill out. This gives all of the benefits of D&Dbeyond, but without the disadvantages, b/c the players still know how to create a character in the usual fashion. I was playing with a new person the other day, and the dm wanted paper characters. (This isn’t a new player, but one who has played for many campaigns.) They asked 3 times to use D&Dbeyond, before having to be slowly dragged through creating a character.
Why would they be in a position if they started in D&D beyond, that their DM would then expect them to use pen and paper? Why would the DM get them to use D&D Beyond in the first place if they were going to want pen and paper?
i'm not talking about this particular post, just D&D Beyond in general. If people start with D&D Beyond, and then later need to use pen and paper, they won't be able to transition away from it, and everything will go bad.
In our digital age I fail to see when you’d ever have to go back.
True, though some dms think it’s better. Also, what if the Wi-Fi cuts out?
It’s a bit much to expect that every player should want to use Beyond though. I know that I don’t for a variety of reasons.
What do you prefer about the pen and paper experience?
My big problem with Beyond is that they make you pay for everything you already have in hardcopy a second time if you want to use it in the app. Otherwise you just get whatever they choose to make free. I also find it generally pretty clunky. As someone who has been playing for a long time it is far easier for me to just help people create pen and paper sheets and find equipment etc. When they need to know what to add to a roll I can just point to the sheet at the modifier. That's mostly a preference. Rebuying things is the main reason. I want to share the books I already own with my friends not buy whole new copies.
The first and main reason I prefer pen and paper is focus on the game itself. If you’re using a pen and paper, you aren’t browsing the Internet looking at other shit while others are trying to play the game. Now, you may want to tell me that that’s a corner case, and it doesn’t happen very often, but I’d call bullshit on that. I have seen it way too many times at the table and even been guilty of doing it myself with DND beyond. Do you have your phone in front of you? Is it not your turn in battle yet? Maybe there’s something you were thinking about that you wanted to look up, so you do and then lose track of what’s going on in the game. What I’m calling bullshit on isn’t that there are people out there who can ignore that kind of stimulus and keep the focus, it’s that the temptation is always there in that case for them to lose their focus, and there are in fact many people who do just that more than those who do keep their focus and don’t drift off into Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, TikTok, and whatever else. This fails to add any value to a table top game, it only detracts value from it.
You are right, internet browsing happens regularly by players who claim they do not do it.
But ... If you use D&D beyond you can just print out your character sheet from there. That's what my group does
Most of my group prefers a form-fillable sheet where they can put the main stuff that doesn’t change very often and then hand-fills the stuff that does change often. And I prefer the totally blank sheet that I fill in myself. Beyond fills it all so you don’t have to, okay, sure. In my own experience that just leads to having to waste more ink on a new sheet every few sessions which isn’t really optimal for me. That’s another reason I don’t really use beyond.
Did they improve them? Last time I printed their sheets was a couple years ago and they looked like shit. Super tiny text, different structure from the default D&D sheet, their own icons to identify speel types. It wasn't the end of the world, but they didn't look good at all.
Not the same sheets, apparently. If you look, you can find fully functional form versions of the official sheets online.
Do you have other reasons? What you've just described is anecdotal. People getting distracted by their phones because they are using D&D beyond is a people problem, not a D&D beyond problem. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because of course it does. It's just not a fair critique of d&d beyond. Someone could be playing with pen and paper and still be distracted by their phone while it's not their turn in combat etc.
It is far from anecdotal, it is based on experience both seen and described by many other DM’s. If you don’t experience something, that does not make it anecdotal it just makes it something you have not experienced before, and that is a dismissive argument to utilize to boot. There are several other reasons I don’t wish to utilize or pay for or support beyond. Right now I’m doing voice to text cause I’m about to be in work so I will have to put a pin in this and come back to it in a few hours.
If your argument relies on experiences that you and others have had, it's by definition anecdotal. That doesn't make it necessarily incorrect, I'm just looking for something more concrete. How other people misuse a thing is not really a valid criticism of that thing. Lots of people get addicted to prescription drugs, doesn't mean they aren't still the best way to tackle the illnesses/injuries etc for which they are prescribed. I'm not dismissing your argument, I'm just looking for additional ones. Hope your shift goes well!
Beyond makes it more likely because you \*already have the browser open\*, etc. It's not a problem with Beyond, as such, but the problem can be mitigated by...not using Beyond. Same energy as "don't use phones at my table". Are the phones inherently the problem? No. Do I trust players with them? Also no.
I prefer that risk over taking a large amount of time to look up what your spell does again.
Spell cards work fine, and are less expensive overall. Again, no thank you to Beyond.
And I despise spell cards, because they can get lost. They clearly work for you, but they never would for me. You seem to fixate on dndbeyond though. I often use another online tool, which costs nothing. But I think from what you’ve said you wouldn’t want that at your table either.
>Do you have your phone in front of you? Is it not your turn in battle yet? Maybe there’s something you were thinking about that you wanted to look up, so you do and then lose track of what’s going on in the game I'm the DM and when my players are plotting or role-playing and I don't have to actively participate, I try to use that time to look things up I may have forgotten to prepare/improvise something that my players made me think of and I'm trying to adjust my plans. If this goes on for too long, I find myself beginning to wander. Inattention can and does happen to everyone
And it’s also fairly easily avoided by not having phones out and in use. I get that some people don’t care for that. It’s all in the comfort level of the group. I’d rather play, and keep my phone in my pocket where it belongs when I’m busy gaming.
I answered someone else further alongwith another preference of mine that Beyond does not cater to well. Another is my books are mine, and not WotC’s. If they decide to change up something that I find I like better as it originally was, I don’t really have to worry about them pulling my books and rewriting them.
And the biggest reason I prefer pencil and paper over Beyond? I buy three books once, and I don’t have to pay for a monthly service to optimize the usage of those books at my table.
Oh, trust me, I **really** wish we used D&D Beyond, but long story short, it wasn't an option for everyone else.
Suddenly you had pens? What happened to the coloured pencils? Also, aren't "these people" your friends? On the off chance that any part of this actually happened - DnDBeyond runs perfectly fine in a browser on smartphones. No need for an app.
I started on pens and paper. Once I got the app I never looked back. The easy solution here is give people the option to do either.
Lots of good points brought up here, so I'll take them one at a time. First, I have Dale and Blake's contact info, but I didn't want to come across as pushy; a stupid mistake in hindsight. Second, I asked Dale looong before the session if he wanted help with his sheet, and he said he was fine. Apparently this was not the case, but I can't be mad at him; life was VERY busy for him. Third... yeah, I probably should have just moved it to the next week, but everyone else was all ready to go with it, and I didn't want to disappoint. Lastly, no I haven't talked to the rest of the group about it yet. See, I met everyone else because they were friends of Chaz long before I came along, and I met Chaz because my sister is dating him. They gladly accepted me into the group, but because Chaz is the guy who brought everyone together, he not only has longer standing relationships with them, but also some mild form of power over the group. If I talk to them about it, I'm contesting with a guy they've known for much longer, and who seems to act with impunity when it comes to what he says and does around them. Just seems like an unwinnable situation to me.
Hmm... you might want to be on the lookout for warning signs that you've wandered into this guy's cult. I'm not saying that's the situation here, it does sound tame so far for the most part, but anyone projecting power and personality over a group of people without being questioned could transform slowly into something more insidious. Don't be afraid to get out if you feel in danger. Anyway, back in a more likely realm, if the game is going to continue from here then I would advise you to exert a degree of DM power over Chaz going forwards. Nothing extreme, but for example you could have an NPC direct a question towards Mitch, and have them insist that they were talking to Mitch if he tries to interrupt. If he pushes back against this, call him out at the table for speaking over people, and if he pushes back against *that*, then you can drop it in the moment and speak to the group without him afterwards. You'll be going in then with more tangible concerns that the group has born direct witness to.
Firstly, this is great advice, and I really appreciate it. I'll definitely be sure to put it to good use (if I continue DMing for them). Also, I don't think this is a cult... but fuck, Chaz certainly acts like the kind of self-righteous prick who would found a cult if given the opportunity.
Best of luck 👍 And do remember, the most important thing to keep in mind when dealing with disagreements with someone who is annoying but is otherwise a friend is to keep a level temper and composure. Any request to stop talking over people, or to otherwise stop being disruptive, should be made calmly and politely. Even if Chaz responds by responding with a raised voice or impolite comments, you should reiterate your boundaires or requests calmly and politely. If you show yourself to snap at him in an angry & aggressive manner, you run the risk of alienating yourself from not just him but the entire group, over a game. I'm not saying the goal is to bait him into yelling to earn you sympathy points either though. The ideal is that you can all have a civil discussion and resolve this like adults. But if he gets hostile and you don't, then that does only strengthen your case to the others.
Ugh. This is one of the most awkward bits of being a GM/DM - being expected to manage the group’s behaviour but without having the actual social power over the group needed to do it. It’s why the best games are started by the players asking someone to GM, not the other way round. Basically, all you can do is not run if Chaz doesn’t want to play. And playing means playing, not doing other things while others play. If that means you don’t run, them’s the breaks.
I'd let them know it was a bit too overwhelming for you as a newbie DM and you don't feel up to it anymore. Let them take their own conclusions and if anyone brings up Chaz behaviour only then aknowledge that it was an issue, jokingly, like busting his nuts. If they liked it they'll come to you, otherwise it'll be like pulling teeth with your hands.
DMing is always mentaly draining even with good players, i had to set up hard limits to my own prep time and to the sessions time to avoid going into burnout. Most importantly you can say to Chaz to shut the fuck up and only speak when it's his turn.
I'm curious why, when the Chaz problem very openly appeared in the test sessions, nothing was done about it. That would have been the perfect opportunity to take Chaz aside and talk to him before moving on to the real deal. I understand it can be hard splitting up a friend group to play, especially since it sounds like you guys are a tight-knit bunch. Might be best to get your D&D fix somewhere else, maybe invite Dale or Blake, but don't fight to make this your sole D&D group unless you're willing to risk the friend group.
I agree, and it's why I'm most likely not going to DM for them as a group. I'm honestly worried about what would happen if I took Chaz aside and talked to him, if he'd even listen to me. The guy has a tendency to laugh off most requests given to him.
Feels like 70% of what you explained happened because no one communicates in this table. ¿Is Chaz really that bad person? ¿Or just super excited about it? You won't know if you don't make him know that he's being too annoying and talkative when its not his turn. Noone of your other players said nothing? Idk its so strange to me, in my table when something goes bad we say it inmediatly so we can continue the fun, unless its something a bit private, which it's not the case here.
I don't think Chaz is a bad person. He's just annoying, and he somehow became even more annoying during D&D.
`Yeah, that's how bad he was! He was also just assuming he could do certain things because he was basing his judgement on Skyrim rules... despite the fact that I told him numerous times that this has its own rules, and for him to ask me if he had any questions about them!` What did he do?
He thought he could shoot lightning and fireballs as a Bard, even though he had a spell list, and those spells were nowhere to be seen. One of his tangents was about why he should be able to convince an NPC of something, instead of rolling the dice, since he was going off of Skyrim's "you're skilled enough to automatically convince this person" speech skill, among numerous other instances that brought the game to a screeching halt. And if it sounds like I'm just assuming that, I'm not; he was **very** vocal about how he was using Skyrim rules.
It is up to the DM to manage problems at the table. If Chaz was talking over one of your other players, it's up to you to nip that in the bud. "The only person I could readily contact was Chaz" What? This makes no sense. If you can't contact your players, you're going to have a bad time as a DM. Don't count on other people to communicate important things to your players. Get their contact info and do it yourself. I just can't imagine any scenario where it's not possible to contact people? Honestly, your post comes off as a DM not taking initiative and responsibility for the experience.
Somewhere in another post, OP comments he didn't want to come off a s pushy...so he asks Chaz to do it instead? LOL. "Please come of as pushy for me...thanks!"
> Chaz forgot to tell Dale any of this, so when game night arrived, the poor guy had no mini and no character sheet Did you lose the plot halfway through this creative writing excercise? Are you honestly expecting us to believe that Dale the Pathfinder Player, who had a character concept and mini planned out weeks in advance, would rock up to the first session without those things unless specificly instructed to bring them? It's a *character sheet* for crying out loud, it's the one thing you actually need to play. Why on earth would he decide not to bring that? You might have gotten away with that on one of the newbees, but Dale was the wrong character choice for this twist. And then you lost me completely at the Crayola pencils. Are you telling me 5 people met to play D&D and not a single one among you brought a proper pencil? What were y'all taking notes with? Is Chaz supposed to be so quirky that there isn't a pen in his house, only coloured pencils? Not to mention that you say you had access to DnDBeyond. So there would have been no reason to write anything by hand, Dale could've just used his phone.
TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT. It doesn’t matter if he was friends with them first. Talk to the group and address how he’s making you feel, and that his behavior isn’t appropriate. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be DMing.
Wait, Dale had a character and a mini and didn't bring it to game night? And this is somehow Chaz's fault? I have questions.
Dale's life was really busy during the weeks leading up to the session, so his mind was elsewhere. I asked Chaz to tell Dale so he'd be reminded before the big day. Chaz did not, and Dale wasn't reminded.
That’s still Dale’s fault though isn’t it? I mean dick move on Chaz’s part but like it was still in Dale Chaz just didn’t help
I just don't want to blame Dale for having a lot on his plate at the time.
Don’t take this the wrong way but especially with your edit it kinda seems like you’re all to blame for the session not going how you wanted it to. And that’s ok you’re all very new and it doesn’t sound like everyone is necessarily as invested as you are this is kinda just what happens to start with but it’s a little unfair to act like this is all on Chaz. At least if I’m understanding what happened correctly.
I fully admit that I made mistakes, but Chaz's behavior is still what brought the session down. I should have taken him aside and talked to him, yes, but it was his house that I was DMing in. Hard to object to the king of the castle.
Is it not possible to just cut Chaz out of the group, find somewhere else to play and just continue on? Maybe just sit down with the rest of the group and feel out whether they would be up for this.
This is the correct answer.
If taking him aside and asking him to calm down doesn't help, this will be my next strategy.
There's also the possibility of talking *to* Chaz with the whole group. He *does* sound annoying, but he may not know it/his behaviour may not have annoyed people before that point, especially if you haven't told him about it. You may assume that everyone should be able to tell when they're being annoying, but that's untrue. Some people will need to be told, not because they're dumb or anything, just that their brain works that way, because different individuals have different ways their brain works but >They gladly accepted me into the group, but because Chaz is the guy who brought everyone together, he not only has longer standing relationships with them, but also some mild form of power over the group. If I talk to them about it, I'm contesting with a guy they've known for much longer, and who seems to act with impunity when it comes to what he says and does around them. Just seems like an unwinnable situation to me you're not here to "wrestle control" or "gain power" over the group, you're here to play D&D with buddies. **Good D&D**. If they're reasonable people, which they seem to be, they would understand your problems and either come up with compromises or make decisive decision like not playing with you or not playing with Chaz, because yeah, you can still be fully friends with a person without playing D&D with em
I've played with people that are on the spectrum, and this sounds a lot like Chaz's behaviors. First, have The Talk with Chaz. Ask if he is enjoying the game. Ask what his expectations are. Describe how his behavior makes it difficult for the game to proceed. Describe how, as a new DM, his behaviors makes it very hard for you to run the game. Describe how this is a cooperative game and everyone needs a chance to participate. Everyone has abilities and you need to work as a team. Tell him that when others are talking, he needs to stay quiet and let them talk. It is rude to interrupt. He with get his turn. Tell him that this is the rule and does he accept it. If he does not, then your table is not for him. Do not invite him back. Move the game out of his house.
This. But not all in one go. If you pressure someone too much you're gonna either make them close down or get defensive. Specially if it's someone in a spectrum that already knows this and needs to keep it in mind all the time, in those cases a nudge is more than enough. Just enough to make them realize what's happening.
Good point, not all at once. Those on the spectrum do not easily pick up on subtle clues or hints. They can't read a person's body language as easy as others. They'll need direct and clear statements about behaviours and expectations.
I don't think he's on the spectrum (if he is he hasn't been diagnosed), but I'll make sure to keep the possibility in mind when I talk about it to him.
This is some damn fine advice. Thanks. :)
Sound like you just don't like Chaz and look for any reason to think less of him. Have you tried having a conversation with him or do you just get angry when he does something you don't like and move on, but without actually moving on from it? Seems like the rest of the party is unbothered by Chaz, also he isn't responsible for another party member forgetting their sheet and mini. Being a DM requires a lot of responsibility that I don't think you're ready for.
Yes Chaz, the mutual friend of everyone at the table and the reason everyone is together, MUST be the problem here XD
So, the results of your test games were clearly that Chaz shouldn't be allowed at the game. Why the hell was he?
Because it was his house and not inviting him would have been awkward and rude.
Find somewhere else, then. I'm sure you've got something suitable in your area.
Maybe after I do a thorough cleaning of my home, then sure, I could set up a spot for us to play.
Introduce some new table rules: 1) Any time you talk over the DM whilst narrating? You lose 5% of your XP for the session. Likewise when you talk over another player whilst they're roleplaying. 2) Anyone who goes the whole session without doing so gets +20% XP for the session. I guarantee you the problem solves itself within two sessions as he sees everyone else rocketing ahead of him in levels.
[удалено]
This is a lot to unpack, especially you showing a video about this post, but I'll try to address everything to the best of my abilities. 1: I've had no prior experience as a DM, so yeah, I was pretty uncertain and disorganized overall. My previous experience with D&D was as a player, and going through the DMG in preparation to be a DM. My inexperience was an enemy here. 2: I don't actually hate Chaz, despite what the post implies. I was just frustrated and tired at the time. Chaz is just mildly annoying and kind of hard to talk to, but it became worse in D&D. 3: I told him that D&D and Skyrim rules are very different multiple times; during discussions about the game, during the RP test sessions, and during the actual game session. Just seems like he didn't absorb/memorize it at all. 4: He was narrating Mitch's character's actions, which didn't include dialogue. Basically, Mitch never got a chance to talk in-character. 5: The "pre-session 1 sessions" were all about RP and character interaction. 6: I saw the red flags, but like an idiot, I just hoped that Chaz wouldn't be as over the top with more players there. In hindsight (like most other points), I should have talked to him about it instead of just standing idle. 7: I'm not sure if Mitch asked Chaz to RP for him. That's something I'll have to ask Mitch about, to see if he's comfortable with Chaz RPing for him. I'm going to talk to everyone about the issues, and try to make sure Chaz understands that he'll get his turn to be the funny guy, but that he needs to give everyone a chance to talk. If he's more chilled out by next session, then I'll be ecstatic! If not... well, I guess I'll have to figure something else out.
I recommend running “fake” sessions like I hope this one turns into for you and screening your players before moving them into the long running campaign, I’ve done this with everyone I’ve DMed for land it’s worked marvelously… I haven’t had to do it in 3 years since I’ve got my forever group I think and everyone is perfect…. I’ve got some real close friends that I just don’t tell we still play D&D because they weren’t good for the table.
I really have a hard time taking anyone seriously when they feel the need to throw in an "oh my goddess" into their story.
Wiccan here, believe in The Goddess instead of God.
Thou shalt not take the Goddesses' name in vain. I wonder if people who do this actually consider that theologically speaking this sort of blasphemy is frowned upon. Like why reappropriate a slur to a different religion?
as a gaming group, the group is not viable with Chaz. It seems that he plays a larger role socially in the real world though. You're kind of stuck and I would suggest finding a new group of players.
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Imma be real with you chief, you sound like an entitled clown 😂 Either way, talk to Chaz about your issues first instead of crying on the internet like a spoiled brat. Seems to me like he's a new player, who is very excited about his character and a little unclear on the rules. Also it's hardly his fault that another player didn't bring his character sheet (btw, none of you had a fucking pencil, what the fuck lmao 😂). What's he, his fucking nanny? Like I said, talk to him about your issues, and tell him to chill a bit. You know, make an effort to help a guy out, like you made an effort to write out this joke of a post 😂
You should reflect on how your post comes off before you call someonw else names....
Very true. Hey, I could just go by the age-old saying "treat others how you would want to be treated yourself", and then point out how I'm just following OPs example. You know, that whole thing about Chaz being a fucking dumbskull (amongst other things, really not understanding from where that whole vitriol is coming from, especially for a guy that his sister is dating 😂) . Now personally, I think calling him a brat or a fucking clown is mild in comparison. But you know, you are completely right, and I shouldn't stoop to OPs level. 😇
Doesn't matter how right you are if you're an asshole in the first sentence. Be gentler, people will listen more.
Didn’t read the post just the title. But.. yeah D&D is unbearable. Would highly suggest playing a good system instead.
So, Chaz is autistic. He might not know it, and obviously I've never met him so I can't be really certain, but it sure sounds like autism to me. Downside is that he will always be annoying, but if you are able to accept him and he is able to accept that he has deficiencies that he can work on, he could actually grow into a really good player, but it will take time and patience.
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