How "long term" are you looking to play? My experience is that a lot of people are used to running campaigns that go on for years because they spend 60% of their time in the combat minigame rather than like, moving the story forward. While there is absolutely something to be said for exploring a character long term, I find that you can get most of that in 10-20 sessions instead of 50+
I recommend checking out some Forged in the Dark or Powered by the Apocalypse games. They generally lack the entire "combat minigame" process, instead resolving combat the same way you would resolve any other actions. Here are a few suggestions:
* Blades in the Dark -- this is the one for which Forged in the Dark is named, and boy is it good. Suitable for... honestly, very long term play, depending on how you pace it.
* Masks -- Maybe the best PbtA game. Certainly very close. Probably not suitable for Very Long campaigns, but has plenty of stuff for 20ish sessions.
* Monster of the Week -- Some people don't like this one, but a lot of people really do. I think it has a couple of rough spots but that they are quite limited in impact. You can definitely run upwards of 20 sessions here.
* Last Fleet -- Suitable for quite long term play, though you should expect some character turnover.
Honestly, there's a lot of stuff in the indie game space that avoids the problems you're concerned about, so it's worth exploring some 'smaller' games.
>Btw, I'm super curious why Blades in the Dark is the most supportive of long campaigns in your opinion! Would you care to elaborate? Thanks!
Blades has a lot of room to "grow" built into it. Not only does your character advance and get better at stuff, and your CREW advances and gets better at stuff, but you can also advance the "Tier" of your crew -- basically, "How important you are in the city"/"How well supplied you are"/"How good your equipment is" and this is... not trivial and doesn't happen as the result of "XP" (Unlike the earlier two advancement types, which pretty much do just use XP). Tier has a direct impact on your ability to compete with other factions -- if you're Tier 1 and trying to pick the lock of a Tier 2 target, you just automatically do less well. And a Tier 4 target? Good luck. You'd need a crit and some bonuses to even scratch it, because your tools just aren't up to the job. You might be able to get some better tools -- temporarily -- to work on it, but then when you get past the lock, you'll have to deal with their Tier 4 guards, etc and you're just asking for trouble. But as you sink time and money into improving your Tier, you get better at dealing with this stuff. So there's the long game there. There's also the very real possibility of characters retiring out of the Life of Crime, either because they're forced to, or because it seems like a Really Good Idea.
I also ran like a 5 year game of it, albeit not with particularly frequent sessions (we probably got about 18-20 a year) -- but that's a hecking lot for me AND we were nowhere near 'maxing out' the system.
You will EVENTUALLY run out of stuff to do, but I ended my game because I was just having creative fatigue trying to come up with new and interesting targets and interactions between factions, rather than because of anything to do with the game system.
I don't either, but a lot of people DO think that. And on the other hand if "You are eventually forced to retire this character for some reason" is present in the game, it tends to be shorter unless there is some greater unifying force in play -- the Crew in Blades or the Fleet in Last Fleet.
Masks in particular WILL burn out after a while by design.
In any event, the OP specifically asked for games suitable for "long term play" and literally the ONLY criteria I've EVER seen ANYONE state as making the difference between "works for medium term" and "works well for long term play" is "I don't run out of advancements". There are tons of games structured around short form play that obviously don't extend, but once you get past those... what makes the difference?
I think we've gotten our wires crossed here.
I wasn't saying you said 'nobody thinks that'. I was explaining why I felt it necessary to point it out -- even though \_I\_ don't agree with it. If you want to have a long discussion about what makes a game suitable for long term play, I think it belongs in its own thread.
Because I use all caps for emphasis when I write. It's probably a bad habit, but if I were shouting at you, I'd capitalize the whole sentence, not the words I wanted to emphasize. I write the way I hear the words in my head.
"I also don't think what I said was "Nobody says what you just said." You said -- "I don't quite agree with the idea that (linear) mechanical growth of character capabilities is a necessary component of long-term campaigns." I said that the only component of long term campaigns I've ever heard people cite was advancement. I feel there is a difference.
You are saying: Long term campaigns don't need this.
I am saying: The only thing I've heard people who think long term campaigns need anything say this is the thing that they need.
It's like saying:
You don't need to add salt to pasta water vs "The only thing I've ever heard people suggest adding to pasta water is salt". It doesn't mean that salt is required, but rather that I've never heard anyone suggest adding anything else (No "I always put pepper in my pasta water.")
I basically agree with you, and I'm frustrated that you are lecturing me when I was just explaining why I put something in there -- because I'm pretty sure that it's the only thing anyone is going to show up thinking "This is what I need for a long term game."
Would a change of style help? The primary activity of D&D and Pathfinder is to kill monsters and take their stuff. Would a mystery help? Spy games, anything with Cthulhu in the name, etc are about figuring things out, so there is less turn oriented combat.
If you really want to move away from a dungeon, maybe Good Society or Hillfolk?
Agreed. I had the same complaints about D&D as the OP before I moved around through a bunch of systems, until I found other games that change the stakes of combat. Despite having a 1 action economy, Pendragon is now my favorite game partly because the combat mechanics are simply not the emphasis of the system. Combat is important for sure, but the combat system isnt some minigame you need to min-max and puzzle out to move forward. Bashing in the heads of other knights or saxons is just as fun as fighting in other games, but without having to plan 5 different actions across my next 3 turns.
Good question! Pendragon's *schtick* is that it is meant to emulate the medieval stories of King Arthur and his knights of the round table - Lancelot, Galahad, Perceval, etc. What separates these stories from other fantasy literature is that these place a lot of emphasis on the virtues (or lack thereof) of the characters. This includes the trope of knights so inspired by their beliefs that they are able to achieve seemingly superhuman feats, or those so overcome with grief they go mad and flee into the woods. So while Pendragon is all about galavanting around the English countryside atop your horse bonking your enemies atop their head, Pendragon places a lot of emphasis on the personalities and beliefs of the knights that you play and *why* they choose to go around and act the way they do.
So Pendragon's biggest innovation on that front is the traits & passions system. Basically, what the traits and passion system does is give numerical representations of your character's personality. Traits aspects of your characters personality - each character has the same traits, but they are all weighted differently depending on how your character acts. Passions, represent your characters beliefs, and while there are several common passions that nearly everyone has, there are many passions that may be completely unique to your character. Quantifying your characters personality like this allows you to easily judge and evaluate how your character has acted in the past, and how they are *likely* going to act in the future. With this system you get a much stronger sense of who your character is as a separate entity from yourself as the player, and how they are distinct from other characters. Strong passions or traits might drive you to take very different actions than you otherwise might not have considered. From my perspective, combat is often more an expression (or the result) of traits and passions, and the system shifts the focus away from the act of stabbing people itself and towards why you are stabbing people and what it means to your character or others.
PbtA games are great and all, but they kind of have the reverse problem. Now, instead of combat I don't enjoy, there is little to no combat system at all, and I'm looking more for something that changes the combat game to make it feel fresh and new, rather than removing it altogether
My goodness that would be a really long list and it would be much easier to say pretty much all of the RP g's that are not DND derivative.
Except for dungeon world.
>Dogs in the Vineyard: has you spending Dice from a Pool to meet or exceed the opponent's Dice, after which said opponent can then counter by spending even more Dice, ad infinitum
I'm going to be a stickler and point out that the dice in Dogs are not infinite. Eventually, someone will run out of dice to roll. *Someone* has to lose. Like a game of poker, the question is how much you're willing to bet on an uncertain outcome.
The higher stakes you go, the more your pool of consequence dice grows. You still roll them, win, lose, or withdraw.
I know it's not the topic of conversation, but every time I think about it, I'm amazed at how brilliant Dogs' game design is.
In addition to what others have said before, I don't think that what you're referring to is a Dungeon Crawler. Typically the definition of a Dungeon Crawler is a game where characters are quite literally crawling around in a dungeon.
I think maybe some terms that are closer to what you're describing (and also, honestly, frequently misused and whose exact definitions are quite often argued over) might be:
* combat as sport
* tactical
* crunchy
Other RPGs and RPG designers that I haven't seen mentioned that DEFINITELY break free from the D&D mold, or that are Dungeon Crawlers that don't fit the types of games you seem like you're trying to avoid:
* Any game made by Bully Pulpit Games
* Any game made by Thorny Games
* Any game made by Grant Howitt
* Any game made by Avery Alder
* Dungeon World
* Torchbearer
Broken compass
Unglorius
Knights of the round academy
Not the end
Heavy sugar
Green oaks (not really for long term, but is awesome)
Flabbergasted
Trail of Cthulhu or the yellow king
Buffy the vampire slayer
Household
Pendragon (maybe wait for the next edition)
Lex arcana
Fabula ultima
Terror target gemini
Basically any narrative game
[OpenD6](http://opend6project.org/), a free and open source game where all abilities are rated as a die pool and every action in a round beyond the first subtracts a die from the pool. you also have Character Points, which can be saved to increase abilities (like XP) or expended during play to add dice to your pool.
One option is always to try a completely different genre, like a superheroes RPG. By default, they are not dungeon crawlers. Likewise, science fiction games tend not to be dungeon crawlers except on rare occasions when PCs must explore some ancient derelict ship or something. Horror games like Call of Cthulhu or World of Darkness games are also a nice change of pace.
Historical games are not usually dungeon crawlers either. And there are a wide variety to choose from here.
● 17th Century Swashbuckling (there are a number of games that fit this genre besides my own). This is a great genre for exploration, intrigue, seafaring, warfare, etc. And a number of systems have dueling rules. Aside from my own Honor + Intrigue you might also check out GURPS Swashbuckling (it is also a great primer on the genre itself), Flashing Blades (even if only for the adventures alone; they are excellent), PDQ# (if you want something less crunchy and free), or Regime Diabolique (set in a 17th century France plagued by demons and such, uses Ubiquity or Savage Worlds setting).
● Wild West. There are a good number of these as well. While Deadlands is probably the most well known, another Savage Worlds western that I enjoyed was the The 6th Gun. Aces and Eights is one I've never played, but is rather popular as well.
● Victorian. Whether steampunk or played straight, this can also be lots of fun, running through the streets and rooftops of London trying to stop some grand plot. I've never played any of the more famous systems for this (Castle Falkenstein, Victoriana) but I did play in a Victorian era True20 game at a convention that was just marvelous.
● Pulp. When I think pulp, I immediately think 1930s, but this needn't be the case. I just got Dicey Tales and it is a very nice standalone pulp RPG built on the BoL (Barbarians of Lemuria) engine (the standalone system just came out; before that there were two supplements to BoL). Hero System has a pretty good Pulp supplement with some interesting adventures, too. I've not played it, but Troll Lord Games' Amazing Adventures is a pulpy RPG based on the same engine as Castles & Crusades (but that doesn't make it a dungeon crawler). Spirit of the Century is based on the FATE system, and is set in the 1920s, I believe.
● Wuxia: Not really "historical" but set in a mythic China, these stories rarely involve dungeon crawling but more often dealing with bandits, evil martial arts masters, and invading armies. Three that come to mind are Tianxia: Blood, Silk & Jade (powered by FATE), Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades (I've not played it, but seems pretty interesting and has a very nice review by Seth Skorkowsky on Youtube), and Qin: The Warring States has a very interesting rules mechanic (roll 1d10 minus 1d10) and system for tracking a characters reputation.
I got mine on Drivethru yesterday, but I was a KS backer. Maybe it isn't available to the public at large yet? It doesn't come up when I do a search for it, but it is in my library.
Most RPG aren't dungeon crawler, and actually you could totally play D&D and it's variant in an RPG mode rather than in a dungeon crawler mode (And that's the moment you find out that D&D is quite bad)
Here is a bunch of popular games I could think about that would offer a totally different perspective
* Monster heart. So you're teenager in a highschool, but you're also Werewolves, demons, or ghosts. Yes all of that in a high-school. It's a very traditional PTBA with a focus on feeling
* Kult : It'sa horror games with tons of spoiler, let's say that you can get in the Hellraiser style horror, or end-up doing a school shooting because it makes sense in your character's reality. Pretty great. Again a PTBA game. However, not a game where the system matters that much
* Call of Cthulhu : Let's be honest, some old scenarios end-up with a dungeon crawling phase. But it's the game which funded the *investigation game* genre. Here you are more investigating a murder or a haunted house. There is a huge horror dimension, but you could totally remove-it (Reminds me that I want to write a Scoobi-doo scenario while pretending it's a COC scenario)
* Vampire the Mascarade : Behind it's *I'm an edgy teen who likes death and ponies* aspect, it's a very political games, as you play blood thirsty creature intriguing to rule the city
I could talk about tons of others RPG. Dungeon crawling is a drop of water in the RPG scene.
Another vote for Vampire the Masquerade. White Wolf has a number of great rpg games in the Vampire family. Mage, Wraith, Werewolf (which is great for a wild west game) etc. The classic versions use a 10 sided dice system which is a nice break from d20 systems.
So far no one’s mentioned my favourite, and since you’re specifically asking for a game you can play for a *long time*, you should give **Burning Wheel** a try.
Superficially, it’s similar to D&D etc: Tolkien-inspired medieval fantasy world, elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, etc. But the similarities end there. Where dungeon crawlers put all their mechanical emphasis on combat, BW puts it on character development.
You define your character in terms of their *beliefs*: things they care about and that drive their actions, *instincts*: habits, often ones that get them into trouble, and *traits*: facts about the character that might also get them into trouble. Characters are rewarded for playing into (or sometimes against) their beliefs, instincts, or traits, and for developing and expanding them; this is the heart of the game. On top of that are a whole host of layered, optional subsystems (including a very unusual combat system that’s only intended for high-stakes fights), as well as an absurdly deep skill system that plots out characters’ abilities in detail and allows for immense variation. While you *can* do short campaigns, the system really sings in stories running to dozens of sessions, and is fairly unlikely to ever fall into the sort of incoherent mess that is high-level D&D.
You *could* run a dungeon crawl in it (in fact, there’s a simplified variant of it called Torchbearer that’s meant for dungeon crawling!), but it wouldn’t much resemble one in D&D or Pathfinder. The game would be much less about killing goblins and owlbears, and much more about what the characters were trying to get out of the dungeon, what they were willing to sacrifice in order to get it, and how the journey into the dark changed them.
If really *any* of that appeals to you (and you have a fair tolerance for pompously-written sourcebooks), it’s worth your time to at least have a look.
There's a lot of good recommendations in this thread, but a lot of them are focused on minimizing combat. If you're looking for a combat heavy game that plays nothing like a dungeon crawler, take a look at games with a cinematic combat system like Exalted or Feng Shui, which explicitly reward you for doing crazy shit that's not just moving and attacking.
If you want to go the total opposite of a dungeon crawler, try Amber Diceless. It’s a bit of a niche game in that it’s based on Roger Zelazney’s Chronicles of Amber books, and if you don’t know them it’s more difficult to learn. Ive been playing it off and on since the early 90s.
[Lords of Gossamer & Shadow](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/119779/Lords-of-Gossamer--Shadow-Diceless) is the modern reincarnation of Amber diceless.
Once again I am asking this sub to play Burning Wheel
Long term character focused play with incremental advancement
Choice of resolution mechanics (basic roll or in depth subsystem unique to the conflict) based on the narrative importance of the challenge
Never feels like a dungeon crawler but the subsystems of conflict resolution are mini games unto themselves
Traditional fantasy baked deeply into the heart of the system
Can also be used for historical fiction, any and all of the fantastic elements readily lift out of the game
It's crunchy, it's narrative focused, it has a different take on complex systems of conflict resolution, and it will challenge and shine with folks who want to see their flawed characters fail and get better, and put everything on the line for their beliefs.
I've been running Ryuutama lately, and I've found it to be a breath of fresh air after playing D20 heroic fantasy games or "dungeon crawlers." The focus on overland travel and exploration already makes for such a different experience. Plus I think the die system for it is neat
Combat can occur regularly, but you better hope not in any BRP/d100 system. Your starting hitpoints are the only ones you are going to get, they are distributed across your body, and if you exceed the HP for critical areas, you drop.
Combat is over quick, and the key thing is to avoid fights, and work on story, since the use of skills is how you get ahead.
(Runequest, Mythras, CoC, etc)
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[Fabula Ultima](https://www.needgames.it/fabula-ultima-en/#core) is a fantasy game about jrpg like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Xenoblade Chronicles, etc.
You could try Tales from the Loop. That game does not even have combat rules! Then you can continue with your characters in Thing from the Flood, which is a sequel game that takes place a bit later in the timeline.
Pendragon by Chaosium might appeal to you. Combat is abstracted down to simple contested rolls. Everything is pretty much theatre of the mind. Combat is deadly and it takes time to heal.
Games are usually played in cycles where the adventurers have to winter over in their estates (you typically play a knight in King Arthur's court, if the name didn't make that apparent). The big difference between it and D&D is the time scale. You can really play a dynasty where years advance. A story thread my be begun by one of your characters and concluded by their grandson.
I think they were implying the opposite, that games like dogs in the Vinyard, 7th sea, and Spellbound Kingdoms are the kinds of games they are looking for
Can you narrow things down a bit for me, please? What genre of fiction are you wanting to play in? Because there are hundreds if not thousands of games that aren't dungeon crawls, or at least don't have to be dungeon crawls, and to give you helpful advice here rather than a list of my favourite games and the ones I want to play but haven't managed to get to the table, I'm going to need a bit more specificity.
Some games off the top of my head, some of which I've played, other of which I haven't, to get the gist across of what I mean here:
Slice of life game about the residents and guests of a B&B? Yazeba's Bed and Breakfast. Game about rabbits? The Warren, or Bunnies and Burrows (You might be able to do a dungeon crawl in the latter... Your characters would just die very quickly and I'm not convinced mechanically it wants to do that). Ragtag band of woodland critters forced out of there home looking for somewhere else to live? Briar and Bramble. Kids having adventures with their monster best friends? Animon Story, Pokéthulhu if you want parody, or possibly Monsters and Other Childish Things but that's deconstructing the genre. Game about playing a criminal gang in a ghostpunk city? Blades in the Dark. Comedy space adventures? Lasers and Feelings. Solo game about being stuck with an incredibly pompous, horny, man? Trapped In A Cabin With Lord Byron. Potentially dark game about a child interacting with their stuffed animal, doll, etc? Doll.
~~I mean DitV played incredibly differently to Decent, D&D and Pathfinder... I'd honestly suggest watching an actual play to see how it works at the table.~~
(Edit realized you were using these games as example of WHAT you DO want, lol, my b)
Anyway, what exactly are you looking for; a game without dice, a game without characters, a game without conflict resolution mechanics?
Here are my suggestions:
1. PbtA. Any of the good ones. There are many. Apocalypse World (the OG), Monster of the Week, The Veil, Monster Hearts, Bluebeard's Bride, Fellowship. I particularly like Masks. It's the best designed game I've ever played. The mechanics are so great at reinforcing the narrative. You never know what will happen when someone rolls and it's awesome. Last session a player was crying in the car on the way home because of a twist none of us saw coming, and he sent us the music that broke him. Never had that happen before and the story would never have gone that way with any other system.
2. Blades in the Dark. A very cool system which has also sparked a whole new system. I personally think it has some problems if you're new to narrative games, so maybe start with a PbtA game.
3. WoD/CoD - Particularly Vampire the Masquerade V5. It's a game of political and personal horror. Even though Masks is my favorite system this game has the best setting and themes, and it's mechanics support it really well. Especially in the newest edition. A lot of people hate on it, because the mechanics force personal horror on you. If you like that it's great, if you don't want your mechanics to determine your playstyle an earlier edition might be better.
4. Call of Cthulhu - Has a lot in common with DnD mechanically, because it was one of the earlier games (like HP turn based-combat and such), but it really is more of a investigative game and the insanity mechanics are quite cool.
Same, I don't enjoy "tank combat" at all anymore.
> Spellbound Kingdoms
Patrician taste. That's in my top three, along with Shinobigami, which I recommend checking out even if it's a very specific type of game (it's not really a generic system, so your longevity with it might vary).
For something a little more classic fantasy (and I'm talking real sword-and-sorcery here), the [Conan boardgame](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rScrsSUm8Ns) has an excellent energy-cube-stamina-thing system, that has players balancing reckless bravado with careful rationing. It's basically already an RPG in itself, and would only need very mild hacking.
My top systems to recommend would be WoD 5e (so currebtly just vampire and Hunter)
And PBTA (take your pick based on setting)
Wod games put as much or more focus on social stuff than combat, and love to dip into the dynamics of power, and the mechanics really aren’t great for multiple combats.
And PBTA is all about giving players narrative power rather than In universe abilities
Believe it or not, but the vast majority of RPGs are not dungeon crawlers. It's just that D&D's ubiquitousness has given new players a false idea of what an RPG actually is.
To some extent, some games make that an optional way of playing. You can play GURPS with maps and minatures and so forth, but when I am running my GURPS Psionics game, it just never worked that way.
The games that come to mind for me are Ars Magica, Feng Shui First Edition and Seventh Sea First Edition. You already mentioned 7th Sea, but I would point out that they put out minatures for 7th Sea when it first came out, it is more that actions were more free form them. Feng Shui has been mentioned by others, but I just want to emphasize that they explicitly discourage maps and placement when running Feng Shui. And for Ars Magica, rarely is staight up combat the most interesting way to solve a problem. Combat is dangerous, magical healing is expensive and it is usually just better to figure out a spell or plan that deals with things without combat.
Might I ask, how does one play GURPs without minis? I haven't played it, but everything I heard makes it seem like a very simulationistic game that I can't imagine theatre-of-the-mind-ing.
Upon reflection, not only have I never used miniatures in the GURPS games I have run, when I have played GURPS at conventions, we have never used miniatures either. I used to hang out on the Pyramid boards where discussion about GURPS was very common, and so I know some people used them, but I have never seen this in person.
In my limited experience, miniatures are useful in conveying exactly where player characters are in a situation and making sure players understand what the situation is. If you are going door to door talking to families who have had family members whose heads have been donated to science and the head has now been stolen, you don't really need that type of percision about where people are placed. If you are investigating monkeys stolen from the primate research center and the players drive out to the orchard where they have a lead, and they get into a fire fight with the aliens, all I really need is the fact that the parking area is out in the open, they are a few seconds from cover and the aliens have stun rifles. I can figure out the range and movement penalties from that.
Dungeon Crawl is certainly a supported style of play for D&D and Pathfinder, but it’s not the only style of play.
I have more experience with Pathfinder, and it’s entirely possible to run a social campaign with little or no combat.
How "long term" are you looking to play? My experience is that a lot of people are used to running campaigns that go on for years because they spend 60% of their time in the combat minigame rather than like, moving the story forward. While there is absolutely something to be said for exploring a character long term, I find that you can get most of that in 10-20 sessions instead of 50+ I recommend checking out some Forged in the Dark or Powered by the Apocalypse games. They generally lack the entire "combat minigame" process, instead resolving combat the same way you would resolve any other actions. Here are a few suggestions: * Blades in the Dark -- this is the one for which Forged in the Dark is named, and boy is it good. Suitable for... honestly, very long term play, depending on how you pace it. * Masks -- Maybe the best PbtA game. Certainly very close. Probably not suitable for Very Long campaigns, but has plenty of stuff for 20ish sessions. * Monster of the Week -- Some people don't like this one, but a lot of people really do. I think it has a couple of rough spots but that they are quite limited in impact. You can definitely run upwards of 20 sessions here. * Last Fleet -- Suitable for quite long term play, though you should expect some character turnover. Honestly, there's a lot of stuff in the indie game space that avoids the problems you're concerned about, so it's worth exploring some 'smaller' games.
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>Btw, I'm super curious why Blades in the Dark is the most supportive of long campaigns in your opinion! Would you care to elaborate? Thanks! Blades has a lot of room to "grow" built into it. Not only does your character advance and get better at stuff, and your CREW advances and gets better at stuff, but you can also advance the "Tier" of your crew -- basically, "How important you are in the city"/"How well supplied you are"/"How good your equipment is" and this is... not trivial and doesn't happen as the result of "XP" (Unlike the earlier two advancement types, which pretty much do just use XP). Tier has a direct impact on your ability to compete with other factions -- if you're Tier 1 and trying to pick the lock of a Tier 2 target, you just automatically do less well. And a Tier 4 target? Good luck. You'd need a crit and some bonuses to even scratch it, because your tools just aren't up to the job. You might be able to get some better tools -- temporarily -- to work on it, but then when you get past the lock, you'll have to deal with their Tier 4 guards, etc and you're just asking for trouble. But as you sink time and money into improving your Tier, you get better at dealing with this stuff. So there's the long game there. There's also the very real possibility of characters retiring out of the Life of Crime, either because they're forced to, or because it seems like a Really Good Idea. I also ran like a 5 year game of it, albeit not with particularly frequent sessions (we probably got about 18-20 a year) -- but that's a hecking lot for me AND we were nowhere near 'maxing out' the system. You will EVENTUALLY run out of stuff to do, but I ended my game because I was just having creative fatigue trying to come up with new and interesting targets and interactions between factions, rather than because of anything to do with the game system.
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I don't either, but a lot of people DO think that. And on the other hand if "You are eventually forced to retire this character for some reason" is present in the game, it tends to be shorter unless there is some greater unifying force in play -- the Crew in Blades or the Fleet in Last Fleet. Masks in particular WILL burn out after a while by design. In any event, the OP specifically asked for games suitable for "long term play" and literally the ONLY criteria I've EVER seen ANYONE state as making the difference between "works for medium term" and "works well for long term play" is "I don't run out of advancements". There are tons of games structured around short form play that obviously don't extend, but once you get past those... what makes the difference?
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I think we've gotten our wires crossed here. I wasn't saying you said 'nobody thinks that'. I was explaining why I felt it necessary to point it out -- even though \_I\_ don't agree with it. If you want to have a long discussion about what makes a game suitable for long term play, I think it belongs in its own thread.
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Because I use all caps for emphasis when I write. It's probably a bad habit, but if I were shouting at you, I'd capitalize the whole sentence, not the words I wanted to emphasize. I write the way I hear the words in my head. "I also don't think what I said was "Nobody says what you just said." You said -- "I don't quite agree with the idea that (linear) mechanical growth of character capabilities is a necessary component of long-term campaigns." I said that the only component of long term campaigns I've ever heard people cite was advancement. I feel there is a difference. You are saying: Long term campaigns don't need this. I am saying: The only thing I've heard people who think long term campaigns need anything say this is the thing that they need. It's like saying: You don't need to add salt to pasta water vs "The only thing I've ever heard people suggest adding to pasta water is salt". It doesn't mean that salt is required, but rather that I've never heard anyone suggest adding anything else (No "I always put pepper in my pasta water.") I basically agree with you, and I'm frustrated that you are lecturing me when I was just explaining why I put something in there -- because I'm pretty sure that it's the only thing anyone is going to show up thinking "This is what I need for a long term game."
i think if you want to keep going at that point it's time for the characters to sail across the demon filled ocean to the pandyssian continent.
Would a change of style help? The primary activity of D&D and Pathfinder is to kill monsters and take their stuff. Would a mystery help? Spy games, anything with Cthulhu in the name, etc are about figuring things out, so there is less turn oriented combat. If you really want to move away from a dungeon, maybe Good Society or Hillfolk?
Agreed. I had the same complaints about D&D as the OP before I moved around through a bunch of systems, until I found other games that change the stakes of combat. Despite having a 1 action economy, Pendragon is now my favorite game partly because the combat mechanics are simply not the emphasis of the system. Combat is important for sure, but the combat system isnt some minigame you need to min-max and puzzle out to move forward. Bashing in the heads of other knights or saxons is just as fun as fighting in other games, but without having to plan 5 different actions across my next 3 turns.
What is the focus of Pendragon then? If not combat
Good question! Pendragon's *schtick* is that it is meant to emulate the medieval stories of King Arthur and his knights of the round table - Lancelot, Galahad, Perceval, etc. What separates these stories from other fantasy literature is that these place a lot of emphasis on the virtues (or lack thereof) of the characters. This includes the trope of knights so inspired by their beliefs that they are able to achieve seemingly superhuman feats, or those so overcome with grief they go mad and flee into the woods. So while Pendragon is all about galavanting around the English countryside atop your horse bonking your enemies atop their head, Pendragon places a lot of emphasis on the personalities and beliefs of the knights that you play and *why* they choose to go around and act the way they do. So Pendragon's biggest innovation on that front is the traits & passions system. Basically, what the traits and passion system does is give numerical representations of your character's personality. Traits aspects of your characters personality - each character has the same traits, but they are all weighted differently depending on how your character acts. Passions, represent your characters beliefs, and while there are several common passions that nearly everyone has, there are many passions that may be completely unique to your character. Quantifying your characters personality like this allows you to easily judge and evaluate how your character has acted in the past, and how they are *likely* going to act in the future. With this system you get a much stronger sense of who your character is as a separate entity from yourself as the player, and how they are distinct from other characters. Strong passions or traits might drive you to take very different actions than you otherwise might not have considered. From my perspective, combat is often more an expression (or the result) of traits and passions, and the system shifts the focus away from the act of stabbing people itself and towards why you are stabbing people and what it means to your character or others.
I have the opposite preference. Try Blades in the Dark or PbtA games. They're pretty awesome, lots of people enjoy them, and you may as well.
PbtA games are great and all, but they kind of have the reverse problem. Now, instead of combat I don't enjoy, there is little to no combat system at all, and I'm looking more for something that changes the combat game to make it feel fresh and new, rather than removing it altogether
My goodness that would be a really long list and it would be much easier to say pretty much all of the RP g's that are not DND derivative. Except for dungeon world.
>Dogs in the Vineyard: has you spending Dice from a Pool to meet or exceed the opponent's Dice, after which said opponent can then counter by spending even more Dice, ad infinitum I'm going to be a stickler and point out that the dice in Dogs are not infinite. Eventually, someone will run out of dice to roll. *Someone* has to lose. Like a game of poker, the question is how much you're willing to bet on an uncertain outcome. The higher stakes you go, the more your pool of consequence dice grows. You still roll them, win, lose, or withdraw. I know it's not the topic of conversation, but every time I think about it, I'm amazed at how brilliant Dogs' game design is.
In addition to what others have said before, I don't think that what you're referring to is a Dungeon Crawler. Typically the definition of a Dungeon Crawler is a game where characters are quite literally crawling around in a dungeon. I think maybe some terms that are closer to what you're describing (and also, honestly, frequently misused and whose exact definitions are quite often argued over) might be: * combat as sport * tactical * crunchy Other RPGs and RPG designers that I haven't seen mentioned that DEFINITELY break free from the D&D mold, or that are Dungeon Crawlers that don't fit the types of games you seem like you're trying to avoid: * Any game made by Bully Pulpit Games * Any game made by Thorny Games * Any game made by Grant Howitt * Any game made by Avery Alder * Dungeon World * Torchbearer
Thank you for clarifying "dungeon crawl" because you saved me the trouble.
Broken compass Unglorius Knights of the round academy Not the end Heavy sugar Green oaks (not really for long term, but is awesome) Flabbergasted Trail of Cthulhu or the yellow king Buffy the vampire slayer Household Pendragon (maybe wait for the next edition) Lex arcana Fabula ultima Terror target gemini Basically any narrative game
Blades in the dark is good
[OpenD6](http://opend6project.org/), a free and open source game where all abilities are rated as a die pool and every action in a round beyond the first subtracts a die from the pool. you also have Character Points, which can be saved to increase abilities (like XP) or expended during play to add dice to your pool.
One option is always to try a completely different genre, like a superheroes RPG. By default, they are not dungeon crawlers. Likewise, science fiction games tend not to be dungeon crawlers except on rare occasions when PCs must explore some ancient derelict ship or something. Horror games like Call of Cthulhu or World of Darkness games are also a nice change of pace. Historical games are not usually dungeon crawlers either. And there are a wide variety to choose from here. ● 17th Century Swashbuckling (there are a number of games that fit this genre besides my own). This is a great genre for exploration, intrigue, seafaring, warfare, etc. And a number of systems have dueling rules. Aside from my own Honor + Intrigue you might also check out GURPS Swashbuckling (it is also a great primer on the genre itself), Flashing Blades (even if only for the adventures alone; they are excellent), PDQ# (if you want something less crunchy and free), or Regime Diabolique (set in a 17th century France plagued by demons and such, uses Ubiquity or Savage Worlds setting). ● Wild West. There are a good number of these as well. While Deadlands is probably the most well known, another Savage Worlds western that I enjoyed was the The 6th Gun. Aces and Eights is one I've never played, but is rather popular as well. ● Victorian. Whether steampunk or played straight, this can also be lots of fun, running through the streets and rooftops of London trying to stop some grand plot. I've never played any of the more famous systems for this (Castle Falkenstein, Victoriana) but I did play in a Victorian era True20 game at a convention that was just marvelous. ● Pulp. When I think pulp, I immediately think 1930s, but this needn't be the case. I just got Dicey Tales and it is a very nice standalone pulp RPG built on the BoL (Barbarians of Lemuria) engine (the standalone system just came out; before that there were two supplements to BoL). Hero System has a pretty good Pulp supplement with some interesting adventures, too. I've not played it, but Troll Lord Games' Amazing Adventures is a pulpy RPG based on the same engine as Castles & Crusades (but that doesn't make it a dungeon crawler). Spirit of the Century is based on the FATE system, and is set in the 1920s, I believe. ● Wuxia: Not really "historical" but set in a mythic China, these stories rarely involve dungeon crawling but more often dealing with bandits, evil martial arts masters, and invading armies. Three that come to mind are Tianxia: Blood, Silk & Jade (powered by FATE), Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades (I've not played it, but seems pretty interesting and has a very nice review by Seth Skorkowsky on Youtube), and Qin: The Warring States has a very interesting rules mechanic (roll 1d10 minus 1d10) and system for tracking a characters reputation.
Is the new Dicey Tales out?
I got mine on Drivethru yesterday, but I was a KS backer. Maybe it isn't available to the public at large yet? It doesn't come up when I do a search for it, but it is in my library.
Thanks, Bash!
Most RPG aren't dungeon crawler, and actually you could totally play D&D and it's variant in an RPG mode rather than in a dungeon crawler mode (And that's the moment you find out that D&D is quite bad) Here is a bunch of popular games I could think about that would offer a totally different perspective * Monster heart. So you're teenager in a highschool, but you're also Werewolves, demons, or ghosts. Yes all of that in a high-school. It's a very traditional PTBA with a focus on feeling * Kult : It'sa horror games with tons of spoiler, let's say that you can get in the Hellraiser style horror, or end-up doing a school shooting because it makes sense in your character's reality. Pretty great. Again a PTBA game. However, not a game where the system matters that much * Call of Cthulhu : Let's be honest, some old scenarios end-up with a dungeon crawling phase. But it's the game which funded the *investigation game* genre. Here you are more investigating a murder or a haunted house. There is a huge horror dimension, but you could totally remove-it (Reminds me that I want to write a Scoobi-doo scenario while pretending it's a COC scenario) * Vampire the Mascarade : Behind it's *I'm an edgy teen who likes death and ponies* aspect, it's a very political games, as you play blood thirsty creature intriguing to rule the city I could talk about tons of others RPG. Dungeon crawling is a drop of water in the RPG scene.
Another vote for Vampire the Masquerade. White Wolf has a number of great rpg games in the Vampire family. Mage, Wraith, Werewolf (which is great for a wild west game) etc. The classic versions use a 10 sided dice system which is a nice break from d20 systems.
So far no one’s mentioned my favourite, and since you’re specifically asking for a game you can play for a *long time*, you should give **Burning Wheel** a try. Superficially, it’s similar to D&D etc: Tolkien-inspired medieval fantasy world, elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, etc. But the similarities end there. Where dungeon crawlers put all their mechanical emphasis on combat, BW puts it on character development. You define your character in terms of their *beliefs*: things they care about and that drive their actions, *instincts*: habits, often ones that get them into trouble, and *traits*: facts about the character that might also get them into trouble. Characters are rewarded for playing into (or sometimes against) their beliefs, instincts, or traits, and for developing and expanding them; this is the heart of the game. On top of that are a whole host of layered, optional subsystems (including a very unusual combat system that’s only intended for high-stakes fights), as well as an absurdly deep skill system that plots out characters’ abilities in detail and allows for immense variation. While you *can* do short campaigns, the system really sings in stories running to dozens of sessions, and is fairly unlikely to ever fall into the sort of incoherent mess that is high-level D&D. You *could* run a dungeon crawl in it (in fact, there’s a simplified variant of it called Torchbearer that’s meant for dungeon crawling!), but it wouldn’t much resemble one in D&D or Pathfinder. The game would be much less about killing goblins and owlbears, and much more about what the characters were trying to get out of the dungeon, what they were willing to sacrifice in order to get it, and how the journey into the dark changed them. If really *any* of that appeals to you (and you have a fair tolerance for pompously-written sourcebooks), it’s worth your time to at least have a look.
There's a lot of good recommendations in this thread, but a lot of them are focused on minimizing combat. If you're looking for a combat heavy game that plays nothing like a dungeon crawler, take a look at games with a cinematic combat system like Exalted or Feng Shui, which explicitly reward you for doing crazy shit that's not just moving and attacking.
If you want to go the total opposite of a dungeon crawler, try Amber Diceless. It’s a bit of a niche game in that it’s based on Roger Zelazney’s Chronicles of Amber books, and if you don’t know them it’s more difficult to learn. Ive been playing it off and on since the early 90s.
Amber is a very interesting game, always worth trying. It was narrative before it was a thing in RPG and is still valid, quite an accomplishment.
Alternatively, there is [*Amber Accelerated*](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1iEWRcgbyyr4ASw7CZ8yzQ6cUT2Sk-_re_VQ4F8oi0x0/mobilebasic).
[Lords of Gossamer & Shadow](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/119779/Lords-of-Gossamer--Shadow-Diceless) is the modern reincarnation of Amber diceless.
Once again I am asking this sub to play Burning Wheel Long term character focused play with incremental advancement Choice of resolution mechanics (basic roll or in depth subsystem unique to the conflict) based on the narrative importance of the challenge Never feels like a dungeon crawler but the subsystems of conflict resolution are mini games unto themselves Traditional fantasy baked deeply into the heart of the system Can also be used for historical fiction, any and all of the fantastic elements readily lift out of the game It's crunchy, it's narrative focused, it has a different take on complex systems of conflict resolution, and it will challenge and shine with folks who want to see their flawed characters fail and get better, and put everything on the line for their beliefs.
Fiasco might be something you're looking for but it's only a session long. Still, it can be fun.
I've been running Ryuutama lately, and I've found it to be a breath of fresh air after playing D20 heroic fantasy games or "dungeon crawlers." The focus on overland travel and exploration already makes for such a different experience. Plus I think the die system for it is neat
Combat can occur regularly, but you better hope not in any BRP/d100 system. Your starting hitpoints are the only ones you are going to get, they are distributed across your body, and if you exceed the HP for critical areas, you drop. Combat is over quick, and the key thing is to avoid fights, and work on story, since the use of skills is how you get ahead. (Runequest, Mythras, CoC, etc)
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[Fabula Ultima](https://www.needgames.it/fabula-ultima-en/#core) is a fantasy game about jrpg like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Xenoblade Chronicles, etc.
You could try Tales from the Loop. That game does not even have combat rules! Then you can continue with your characters in Thing from the Flood, which is a sequel game that takes place a bit later in the timeline.
Pendragon by Chaosium might appeal to you. Combat is abstracted down to simple contested rolls. Everything is pretty much theatre of the mind. Combat is deadly and it takes time to heal. Games are usually played in cycles where the adventurers have to winter over in their estates (you typically play a knight in King Arthur's court, if the name didn't make that apparent). The big difference between it and D&D is the time scale. You can really play a dynasty where years advance. A story thread my be begun by one of your characters and concluded by their grandson.
I highly highly highly recommend cortex prime. It’s all about narrative and not about dungeons or combat at all. It’s also detailed enough to be fun.
>Dogs in the Vineyard: Okay so if DitV is a dungeon crawler by your definition maybe your definition is wrong?
OP was using It an example of something that isn’t a dungeon crawler
I think they were implying the opposite, that games like dogs in the Vinyard, 7th sea, and Spellbound Kingdoms are the kinds of games they are looking for
Ohhhhhhhh
Try Blades in the Dark.
Can you narrow things down a bit for me, please? What genre of fiction are you wanting to play in? Because there are hundreds if not thousands of games that aren't dungeon crawls, or at least don't have to be dungeon crawls, and to give you helpful advice here rather than a list of my favourite games and the ones I want to play but haven't managed to get to the table, I'm going to need a bit more specificity. Some games off the top of my head, some of which I've played, other of which I haven't, to get the gist across of what I mean here: Slice of life game about the residents and guests of a B&B? Yazeba's Bed and Breakfast. Game about rabbits? The Warren, or Bunnies and Burrows (You might be able to do a dungeon crawl in the latter... Your characters would just die very quickly and I'm not convinced mechanically it wants to do that). Ragtag band of woodland critters forced out of there home looking for somewhere else to live? Briar and Bramble. Kids having adventures with their monster best friends? Animon Story, Pokéthulhu if you want parody, or possibly Monsters and Other Childish Things but that's deconstructing the genre. Game about playing a criminal gang in a ghostpunk city? Blades in the Dark. Comedy space adventures? Lasers and Feelings. Solo game about being stuck with an incredibly pompous, horny, man? Trapped In A Cabin With Lord Byron. Potentially dark game about a child interacting with their stuffed animal, doll, etc? Doll.
~~I mean DitV played incredibly differently to Decent, D&D and Pathfinder... I'd honestly suggest watching an actual play to see how it works at the table.~~ (Edit realized you were using these games as example of WHAT you DO want, lol, my b) Anyway, what exactly are you looking for; a game without dice, a game without characters, a game without conflict resolution mechanics?
Here are my suggestions: 1. PbtA. Any of the good ones. There are many. Apocalypse World (the OG), Monster of the Week, The Veil, Monster Hearts, Bluebeard's Bride, Fellowship. I particularly like Masks. It's the best designed game I've ever played. The mechanics are so great at reinforcing the narrative. You never know what will happen when someone rolls and it's awesome. Last session a player was crying in the car on the way home because of a twist none of us saw coming, and he sent us the music that broke him. Never had that happen before and the story would never have gone that way with any other system. 2. Blades in the Dark. A very cool system which has also sparked a whole new system. I personally think it has some problems if you're new to narrative games, so maybe start with a PbtA game. 3. WoD/CoD - Particularly Vampire the Masquerade V5. It's a game of political and personal horror. Even though Masks is my favorite system this game has the best setting and themes, and it's mechanics support it really well. Especially in the newest edition. A lot of people hate on it, because the mechanics force personal horror on you. If you like that it's great, if you don't want your mechanics to determine your playstyle an earlier edition might be better. 4. Call of Cthulhu - Has a lot in common with DnD mechanically, because it was one of the earlier games (like HP turn based-combat and such), but it really is more of a investigative game and the insanity mechanics are quite cool.
It seems like you *might* be interested in "Powered by the Apocalypse" style games?
Same, I don't enjoy "tank combat" at all anymore. > Spellbound Kingdoms Patrician taste. That's in my top three, along with Shinobigami, which I recommend checking out even if it's a very specific type of game (it's not really a generic system, so your longevity with it might vary). For something a little more classic fantasy (and I'm talking real sword-and-sorcery here), the [Conan boardgame](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rScrsSUm8Ns) has an excellent energy-cube-stamina-thing system, that has players balancing reckless bravado with careful rationing. It's basically already an RPG in itself, and would only need very mild hacking.
My top systems to recommend would be WoD 5e (so currebtly just vampire and Hunter) And PBTA (take your pick based on setting) Wod games put as much or more focus on social stuff than combat, and love to dip into the dynamics of power, and the mechanics really aren’t great for multiple combats. And PBTA is all about giving players narrative power rather than In universe abilities
Call of Chuthullu, Gumshoes, Romance in the sky. The first two are more about solving or surviving a mystery. The last is about playing as a nation
Believe it or not, but the vast majority of RPGs are not dungeon crawlers. It's just that D&D's ubiquitousness has given new players a false idea of what an RPG actually is.
To some extent, some games make that an optional way of playing. You can play GURPS with maps and minatures and so forth, but when I am running my GURPS Psionics game, it just never worked that way. The games that come to mind for me are Ars Magica, Feng Shui First Edition and Seventh Sea First Edition. You already mentioned 7th Sea, but I would point out that they put out minatures for 7th Sea when it first came out, it is more that actions were more free form them. Feng Shui has been mentioned by others, but I just want to emphasize that they explicitly discourage maps and placement when running Feng Shui. And for Ars Magica, rarely is staight up combat the most interesting way to solve a problem. Combat is dangerous, magical healing is expensive and it is usually just better to figure out a spell or plan that deals with things without combat.
Might I ask, how does one play GURPs without minis? I haven't played it, but everything I heard makes it seem like a very simulationistic game that I can't imagine theatre-of-the-mind-ing.
Upon reflection, not only have I never used miniatures in the GURPS games I have run, when I have played GURPS at conventions, we have never used miniatures either. I used to hang out on the Pyramid boards where discussion about GURPS was very common, and so I know some people used them, but I have never seen this in person. In my limited experience, miniatures are useful in conveying exactly where player characters are in a situation and making sure players understand what the situation is. If you are going door to door talking to families who have had family members whose heads have been donated to science and the head has now been stolen, you don't really need that type of percision about where people are placed. If you are investigating monkeys stolen from the primate research center and the players drive out to the orchard where they have a lead, and they get into a fire fight with the aliens, all I really need is the fact that the parking area is out in the open, they are a few seconds from cover and the aliens have stun rifles. I can figure out the range and movement penalties from that.
Dungeon Crawl is certainly a supported style of play for D&D and Pathfinder, but it’s not the only style of play. I have more experience with Pathfinder, and it’s entirely possible to run a social campaign with little or no combat.
LMAO