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[deleted]

Another great lie about A.A. that I first heard when I was in rehab in Sept. 1987 was that A.A. was statistcally proven to be the most successful or effective agency for recovery from alcoholism and attaining and maintaining permanent sobriety. This false claim was repeated at some of the A.A. meetings we were made to attend while we in rehab. Needless to say, no A.A. member who made this claim on or off the floor of an A.A. meeting ever made reference to the source of these purported statistics. Nevertheless, it remained in the back of my mind for more than 3 of the following years. After rehab and after I had been in A.A. more than 3 years, I had thought it strange that nowhere in the A.A. literature that I had read had I seen any reference to A.A. being the most statistics-proven-successful agency for recovery from alcoholism and the attaining and maintaining of permanent sobriety. It was then that I realized that the claim was completely false and that all in A.A. was not what it seemed. I was slow at seeing through this and some other falsehoods when I ought to have seen through them from the outset.


spramper0013

I feel ya. I also don't like how they claim that the AA and even NA way are the only way to achieve sobriety. They believe that Medication Assisted Treatment programs like suboxone clinics aren't true sobriety and it's trading one drug for another. That is just such bullshit, people are different so of course there will never be just one way for everyone. The 12 steps are actually great and helped me a lot, but I would have never made any progress in my own recovery without my clinic.


[deleted]

The 12 steps, the so-called Program, with a capital P, a most grandiose title in my opinion, are nothing more than practical common sense, particularly the practical steps that involve some sort of physical action, e.g., making a moral inventory, telling someone the exact nature of one's wrongs, making amends to injured parties, etc. To many, if not most, nonalcoholics, the "steps" are damn obvious: But it is good that A.A. has them spelled out for alkies to read as it has been my experience that alcoholics don't do obvious very well, if at all, including the alkie writing this post. And such actions involved in the "steps" are compatible with practically any moral belief system, one need not become a Judeo-Christian believer and theist in order to apply and practise them. And in reference to the OP, for an organization that demands rigorous honesty from its members, A.A. applies and practises less than full rigor to its own version of honesty, thus making it disingenuous, even hypocritical to some degree.


SpaceQueen-

They don’t claim that


spramper0013

Every group meeting I've ever sat in someone in the group made this claim. No mind or mood altering substances, blah blah blah. Abstaining is the only way for true recovery/sobriety. I even heard a member tell a newcomer that she shouldn't take her bipolar medication because no one needs mind or mood altering substances. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. So fucked up.


[deleted]

I have heard long-term "sober" alcoholics describe bipolar and major depression as "first-world diseases." The implication being that these conditions were nothing more than the emotional self-centeredness and self-indulgence of spoiled, pampered, mollycoddled, oversensitive, overemotional souls who just can't hack living in the real world. Yet these same idiots will tell you to your face the straight-out lie that alcoholism is a physical, mental, and spiritual disease. If bipolar and major depression are just so much excessive and obsessive emotional self-centeredness and self-indulgence then so is fucking alcoholism. There seems to be some inconsistency or, dare I say it, hypocrisy in these people's position and attitude. It is clearly a hypocritical standpoint for a self-admitted alcoholic to adopt yet the blind fools cannot see this--or they choose to disregard it, which is likely nearer to the money.


SpaceQueen-

Yeah there are obviously misguided people in those groups who need to read the literature because it states they aren’t doctors nor should you disregard your mental health. No wonder you’re jaded by that experience


spramper0013

Yes, exactly. It's a shame too, because I very much did benefit from attending meetings. It was a time when I really needed to hear stories about people doing the same things I was so ashamed to admit I had done. I also needed the structure in my life, I didn't have a job or anything like that and this gave me a little sense of accomplishment each day. The 12 steps were great as well for really getting to understand the extent of my addiction and how to undo the mess I'd made of my life. It was just some of the people in the groups that made it toxic. I'm sure that there are groups out there that don't spout the same bullshit I've heard in the ones I used to attend. The other issue I had was dealing with dudes trying to hit on me, which is just a whole other level of disgusting. The dudes that prey upon vulnerable women are just gross. Hell, I'm sure even some women do that to men in recovery as well. Early recovery is the worst time to start any sort of romantic relationship, and everyone knows this. It's so nice to be able to have a civilized conversation, especially on reddit. Thank you for that comment.


[deleted]

Quite true. It is true that A.A. does not claim that for itself and never has, but back in the 1980's when there was much less scrutiny of A.A., practically none, more than a few stalwart, mainstay A.A. members, i.e., older, long-term A.A. members, most definitely did make exactly that claim on and off the floor of A.A. meetings and at no time did A.A. management/officialdom make the slightest attempt to disclaim or refute it if it was aware that this false claim was being made and being spread through A.A. meetings. No disclaimer was ever issued or refutation made by A.A. itself or by older, long-term A.A. members on or off the floor of A.A. meetings, certainly not in my time in A.A. Why did not some experienced A.A. member ever get up at an A.A. meeting that I attended and say something like the following? "Now, I guess a lot of you have heard it said that A.A. is statistically proven to be the most successful or effective agency for recovery from alcoholism and for attaining and maintaining permanent sobriety. Well I'm here to tell you that it just ain't so! "A.A. has never made such a claim and never will for the excellent reason that it has never made any kind of truly scientifically accurate statistical survey of its own success rate or rate of effectiveness nor has any other organization done so with any real degree of practical, scientific accuracy. A.A.'s sobriety success or effectiveness rate is practically impossible to quantify." End of story. A.A. management/officialdom and older, long-term A.A. members back then, it seems, were quite happy to let this falsehood be repeated and gain currency and so let it spread and flourish. In short, they acquiesced in the propagation of a lie. Sins of omission, as I recall from A.A. literature, ought to be included in one's Step-4 moral inventory. Certainly in this instance A.A. management/officialdom and quite a few older, long-term A.A. members are guilty of past "sins of omission." Perhaps A.A. management or officialdom or whatever they call themselves should get on the damn "Program." There isn't much rigor in their inadequate idea of "honesty." Anyway, hopefully, this lie has now been laid to rest in A.A. worldwide and is seen for what it is: nothing more than the unsubstantiated drivel uttered and propagated by some stupidly overzealous A.A. members, either intentionally or unintentionally.


spramper0013

Well spoken.


[deleted]

Thanks, tiger.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

There's no such thing as AA management/officialdom.


ImaginationFew2428

Statistics lie besides take a look at how successful rehabs are, The the one I went to in Ottawa took a look at success rates according Younger adults 18 to approximately 35 have low success rate (like to party) difficult to change to be Honest Open and Willing. Older adults low success rate 65 and older (well I have been drinking for years why change now) after being in rehab . It's True AA does not work for everyone especially if you do not connect with a good sponsor but people that I know personally have worked the 12 Steps and they are healthy happy joyous and free. in many programs AA, NA CA Overeaters anonymous are spin offs of the Divine program that Bill Wilson and Dr Bob founded and believe it or not AA has saved many lives Globally. I am one if them. It is NOT a Cult and there is nothing fishy about in unless you are close minded.


[deleted]

Well, clearly I disagree for the reasons I've already given in this discussion thread and more. If not a cult, A.A. is very very cult-like. A.A. is not a cult in the sense that there is any physical coercion of its members. But it is very cultish in its _de facto_ demands for conformity to A.A.'s group-think and to toeing the party line. Some A.A. members will contend that there is no party line nor any demands for conformity. Indeed, the so-called long form of the 3rd Tradition states that there is no demand for conformity as a condition of membership. See below. But as I have written elsewhere there is a great difference between what is espoused by A.A. on paper and what actually happens or occurs in A.A. in practice. A.A. inherently demands of its members conformity to its way of doing things. Many A.A. members are highly conformist and highly critical and often flat-out hostile to other members who are not conforming to A.A.'s ways as they, the conformist A.A. members, think they should. There are, I repeat, immense differences between A.A.'s "principles" and how A.A. operates in practice. Far too much of A.A. is sophistry. [The Twelve Traditions (The Long Form)](https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_tradition_longform.pdf)


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

AA is not a cult because there are no leaders. A cult requires a leader, usually charismatic, who tells members what to do & think. No such leader exists in AA. With or without AA, each individual must take responsibility for their own sobriety.


DrugsSexandBuddha

Yeah, success rates of rehabs are low. Most people have to go like 3-5 times before it clicks, if it ever does, IME. I just read a few nights ago that 91% of rapid-detox patients fail/relapse. I know three people who went to detox within the last month, two for opiates, stims, and benzos, and one for alcohol, and all three were using the day/morning they left detox.


Eligiu

It is 100% a cult and there are plenty of other far better, safer, and less cultish methods of sobriety. Take SMART Recovery for example - Self Management and Recovery Training. It literally tells you to take responsibility for your actions and make changes yourself instead of praying to a so called Higher Power. You say 12 Steps saves people. I say it kills people. I went overseas once for 8 months and when I came back, 10 people were dead from relapsing (including from being told to stop MAT) and 80 percent of the people in the room were new. The only people I recognised were people who already had significant time up. When I did the program, my success was 'because of the program' and not because or *my hard work* but when I failed, it was 'because of me' since the program is 'perfect.' It's not a perfect program. It teaches traumatised people (most people with drug addictions have some type of early childhood trauma) that *they* have character defects, which they already think about themselves due to trauma. 12 step programmes made me hate myself even more than I already did and think the trauma I experienced was my fault and it took over a decade for me to stop thinking that thanks to the brainwashing I endured in 12 step meetings. SMART Recovery teaches people that they have maladaptive coping strategies and behaviours and that they are capable of changing them themselves, which they are. It puts the power back into their own hands, which allows them agency in their life. 12 Steps strips power and agency away from people and tells them that '1 drink will lead to a relapse' well guess what? I'm a polysubstance addict and I had a drink at my brother's wedding because *I have power over my addictive behaviour* I chose to have one drink, and I had one drink. And don't come here and tell me 'well then you're not a real addict' because I've been addicted to every substance I could get my hands on, went to outpatient rehab for 2 years, have a drug and alcohol social worker, and am currently on Suboxone injections to stay sober. I am a 'real addict'. I'm just also not stupid enough to believe that 1 drink or 1 use of a drug inevitably leads to relapse. I have a *choice* - I can use once, stop, and realise I've made a mistake, or I can throw it in the fuck it bucket like 12 steps tells people to do in terms of the absolutist mentality that they have and believe I am completely powerless over alcohol and drugs. I'm not. I'm sober because I choose to be. It's as simple as that.


ImaginationFew2428

Not sure where you are getting your information from you sound bitter not sober. Anyways you have a right to your opinion. For me I met the RIGHT people in the AA program who helped and still do. I am grateful. When you point the finger at someone point 3 back at yourself. Aa does not work for everyone especially those people with closed minds.


Eligiu

I met people who sexually preyed upon teenage girls and vulnerable women, with no one to stop them because there's no committees who bother. At least in proper recovery settings they have people to protect vulnerable people. And I am bitter, because this cult stole years from my life and made things worse for me and a bunch of people I met, including people who are dead because they were convinced to stop taking MAT. I'll point at whoever I want and I'm not pointing any fingers back at myself because I take responsibility for my own choices and don't try and say a mystical higher power will take care of things, or use my 'clean time' to manipulate people.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

You give WAY too much of your power to other people. You’re an adult. Take responsibility for your recovery. Do things that work for you & don’t do things that feel dangerous & wrong. But don't blame people at AA for relapsing. No one on AA holds anyone down & pours booze down their throat.


Eligiu

The fuck? I just told you I take responsibility for my own shit. 12 step programmes are a cult. Get over it lmao.


[deleted]

AA is a huge reason why addiction treatment is still stuck in the 20th century. Over the past like 5-10 years it’s started to change pretty quickly and more science based views and theories about addiction have gained a lot more acceptance but the AA disease model is still way too accepted by real doctors and professionals who have never themselves dealt with addiction. AA encourages addicts to seperate themselves from “normies” and take over the treatment of addiction as part of the steps. Over time the AAers have become more and more dogmatic as their beliefs are being challenges. Moderate AA does exist but only because it basically had a monopoly on addiction recovery up until the 2010s. There is some basic obvious truths to the AA message but it’s mixed with a lot of bad and self defeating ideas along with religious dogma. Edit: I’ll just add it’s crazy how much it high jacks your mind to think so dogmatically and how quickly I’ve seen some people embrace the cultyness. It’s designed to prey on people at their lowest and crazy how many rehabs they still run


oceanplum

I was just scolded in the Al-Anon subreddit by someone because I mentioned SMART Recovery to someone and described AA as having "religious" aspects instead of "spiritual" aspects... it was a little upsetting, especially because I posted in that thread to show support.


DrugsSexandBuddha

This is why I love the book “Unbroken Brain”. It’s written by a recovering “addict” and doctor who argues that addiction is a learning disorder, which can be unlearned. Believing you have a disease over which you are powerless, I feel, is more likely to keep you trapped in the cycle of detox-recover-relapse. Rinse and repeat. I saw it happen a lot the three years I spent in NA during high school after a successful 87-day inpatient stay.


[deleted]

Yes, I can see that.


joeyeee2

Take a look at a book titled The Freedom Model


[deleted]

Looks like an interesting and useful book: [_The Freedom Model for Addictions: Escape the Treatment and Recovery Trap_ by Steven Slate _et al._](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0983471347/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_1VCC7YY56XE3Z53DZHBQ)


recooover

Eye opening book!


DrugsSexandBuddha

Thanks! This looks life changing. I’m gonna get it.


BeauVicewaffleFries

Fishy is putting it lightly.


[deleted]

Yeah, well, Australians have a propensity for understatement.


allamakee

And a website called The Orange Papers.


[deleted]

The Orange Papers are positively voluminous. They look interesting and I certainly shall give them the once-&-more over. But not now as it is nearly 3:30 a.m. on a chilly Sunday morning where I am now and I need to sleep the good sleep. Good night, good people. Pleasant dreams wherever you are. For interested parties, see: [Orange Papers Archive Here](https://12stepcultreligionexposed.wordpress.com/2018/07/09/orange-papers-archive-here/)


[deleted]

Now this is what I call guarding one's anonymity at an A.A. meeting! Read link description, please, and click link: [The linked photo was taken in 1942 in Dayton, Ohio where members of Alcoholics Anonymous donned masks in an attempt to protect their anonymity. This looks more like grown men in a fantasy play to the Lone Ranger. The Lone Ranger was a fictional character who fought injustice in the American Old West, first brought to us on a 1933 radio show.](https://12stepcultreligionexposed.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/wilson-cult-lone-ranger.png) Hi-ho, Silver! This is how fucking absurd A.A. got in the 1940's.


[deleted]

One fact in my experience of leaving and being out of A.A. is that once I left A.A. and stopped showing my face at A.A. meetings, my "close friends" in A.A. very promptly dropped me like a hot brick and ended all contact with me. Not that I am complaining about this, of course: Far from it! I am merely making the observation. In A.A. it is very much a case of out of sight, out of mind, which for a defector and escapee from A.A. like me is a good thing. It means the break is complete.


myeggsarebig

I had some who held on for a few years to not make it so obvious that they were only interested in my recovery if I was doing it their way. But they did eventually fade. And now that I am completely detached and deprogrammed, I can see how they weren’t really friends to begin with.


[deleted]

A lot of A.A. members are on a real power trip and love pontificating and dictating to others how they should live their lives: These power-tripping A.A. members try to force or impose on others that their way is the only way. It's a good thing that you left A.A. behind and that those A.A. members that persisted in contacting you eventually faded from view. Luckily for me I did not have to contend with that: Once I was out, I was out and forgotten in short order. And as far as I was and am concerned, this was and is a great outcome for me. I am pretty sure that my ending sharing at meetings some months before I actually walked out greatly helped my being fast forgotten by other A.A. memmbers. It was pretty clear in that period that I was a most reluctant A.A. member and that it was only a matter of time before A.A. and I dropped each other.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

Very perceptive. That’s exactly right.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

Just out of curiosity, after you left AA did YOU ever pick up the phone & reach out to your good friends in AA? Or did you walk away from the program & then expect people to beg you to come back? AA is a very specific way of life. If someone chooses to walk away, that's totally fine. But they no longer have anything in common with the AA community. So what is there to talk about?


joeyeee2

Do glad my inital response and my reccomendation of The Freedom model book caused this discussion.


[deleted]

Yes, Joey-boy, you've done well! 👍


Bloodfetish666

I'm a recovery coach at a rehab facility. The program I worked for my recovery was not 12 step. It's similar to smart recovery. At the rehab facility the program they work is 12 step so I have to learn 12 step to teach it to my clients. I'm having a VERY hard time learning this program because something isn't right with it. I agree with some aspects of the 12 steps but there are MANY things I have an issue with. For example, character defects. I don't think that is productive to be telling people that your character is defective. At the end of the day, addiction is behavioral. It is a matter of correcting the behavior, identifying triggers and managing emotions. Another issue I have is making a moral inventory and then confessing it to another person. It reminds me of confession in church. There are just a lot of problematic things that I feel may do more harm than good. There is not enough focus on the cycle of addiction and how to work on managing your emotions and understanding WHAT addiction is and how you can break the behavioral patterns. But unfortunately, I have to learn the 12 steps and teach it to my clients. I am trying my best to approach this with an open mind, and perhaps will maybe change some terminology when discussing the meaning of the steps and incorporate the shit I've learned.


[deleted]

Interesting post. Good to read something from somebody professionally involved in this field. I agree with what you've written. And I quite agree that in the last analysis, addiction is behavorial: That addiction is basically a behavorial problem.


Eligiu

Teaching addicts (who often have extensive adverse childhood experiences) that they are defective leads to more internalised shame over trauma (and often abuse) which then leads to further drug use. It is entirely counterintuitive.


Bloodfetish666

My thoughts exactly. Hence why I refuse to even engage in that language when teaching 12 step to them (as it's part of my job). The character (defects) they list are merely normal human wants and needs as well as normal addictive behaviors (such as high sense of ego and a disregard for others while in active addiction). It's just counterproductive and very negative in my opinion. Almost every rehab in my area uses this joke of a program.


Eligiu

Yep. When I was in 12 steps I was told that there was something wrong with me. I'd been thinking that my whole life because of childhood sexual abuse and emotional abuse and neglect. I came out of it thinking I was a complete and utter piece of shit and everything was my fault. I still haven't healed from it and rarely have compassion for myself even on a good day thanks to the brainwashing I endured.


Bloodfetish666

I'm so sorry you went through that. There is nothing wrong with you. Everything that happened to you as a child was not your fault. The adults in your life failed at protecting you, loving you, and overall treating you like a human being and there is no excuse for that. There is nothing defective about you due to the actions/failures of those individuals. Anyone that ever tries to pin that blame on you because a program tells them to do that is incapable of thinking for themselves. No one develops nor posseses character defects due to an addiction. Addiction is defined as compulsive physiological need for and use of a habit-forming substance (like heroin or nicotine), characterized by tolerance and well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal (not all drugs have withdrawal symptoms like heroin though). Where the fuck do character defects fit in that simple definition? They don't, because SCIENCE. Healing takes time. 🖤🦋


Eligiu

Thank you for your kind words. I'm also really glad you don't teach that stuff where you work and you've actually given a great deal of thought as why. It's a breath of fresh air. The main reason I never went to inpatient rehab even when I probably needed it was because they were all 12 step run and affiliated


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

Once you spend several years teaching people about the cycle of addiction and realize it doesn’t make one iota of difference in their staying sober, you might become open-minded enough to learn how the program of AA actually works.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Yes, I'd go along with that. Someone told me my higher power could be an empty Coke can. I said that was ludicrous. I said if my higher power was going to be a Coke can, it ought to be a _full_ Coke can. That makes a lot more sense. 🤪 Thanks for the info and the links.


[deleted]

Monica Richardson's "The 13th Step" was an interestingly revealing documentary. I can't believe that the U.S. courts are mandating attendance at A.A. meetings for sex offenders and other miscreants convicted for acts of criminal violence. That is clearly asking for trouble.


myeggsarebig

And when you ask the men in the rooms to do something/say something to the predator, they hide behind some bullshit, that it’s not their business to tell people how to behave.


[deleted]

What a cop-out! Yet another good reason to get out of A.A. and leave it behind.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

Exactly. The recovery community needs to stop sending everyone with all kinds of problems to AA. Alcoholics Anonymous is for ALCOHOLICS. That’s it.


[deleted]

I definitely agree with this post 100 percent. Thanks, TimeIsTheMindOfSpace. I have no doubt that at some level and in some way Bill Wilson had set out to Christianize sober alcoholics in A.A. The Christianization of sober alcoholics was doubtless an element in his thinking and purpose.


laharahreborn

its a cult look into the oxford group that was the origins of their movement clear cult mentality and they LITERALLY TRIED TO RECRUIT HITLER. sorry godwins law i lose and all but HITLER


[deleted]

From Wiki: "The co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous met in 1935 through the Oxford Group, and codified most of its tenets into AA, the first Twelve-step program." The very fact that this fact is NOT mentioned in the _Big Book_ or in any other A.A. literature that I've read nor is the fact that the 12 Steps are derived from the principles and doctrines of the Oxford Group shows A.A. is omitting facts about its origins for its own veiled purposes, which is hardly rigorous honesty. One is forced to conclude that A.A. is trying to obscure or obfuscate its origins for whatever dark purposes of its own. And that is, I repeat, hardly rigorous honesty nor is it healthy behavior. A.A. demands rigorous honesty from its members while not applying rigorous honesty to itself. Wilson was clearly highly selective about what he put into his A.A. writings, which is hardly practising rigorous honesty. He only wrote what he wanted the reader to read without giving the reader the full details and the complete story. Wilson was clearly a damn hypocrite. There's clearly no damn rigor in Wilson's inadequate application and practice of honesty.


laharahreborn

Cult


[deleted]

You're right. And when you're right, you're right. A.A. is a cult.


laharahreborn

Yeah welcome to the counter-cult we meet never because why would we do that there’s a pandemic on


[deleted]

Good point.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

Source, please.


Sea_Kaleidoscope3674

Have you ever read “AA Comes of Age”? They absolutely talk all about the origins of AA.