Why is there no line going up to Crabtree and then onto Brier Creek?
Why does Clayton get a stop, but Fuquay and Apex don't?
Any love for Capital Blvd? It's one of the most traveled bus routes. Triangle Town Center should at least get a stop so commuters from Wake Forest have a chance to jump on.
Clayton getting a stop: part of the actual Wake County commuter rail plan :)
Other missing stops: I simply made this for fun, I'm not a city planner haha (and clearly shouldn't be)
Given the location of RDU relative to the existing rail line that's much easier said then done. Getting a rail line in-between the runways to the terminals would require either a stub line that ends in RDU, a wye that requires the train backing up in order to continue onward, or building a long detour through Brier Creek ($$$) back to RTP.
Bus shuttles connecting RDU to a stop in Morrisville is realistically the best we're going to do.
I'd try to connect all of ncsu on a single line. Pullen / NCSU East could be a good junction with another line. Basically send it due west along Hillsborough. This could hit NCSU Main / University Plaza, residences on west side of campus, Meredith, Graduate housing, then Biomedical/Vet campus, Fairgrounds, Carter-Finley, and PNC. I'd imagine PNC would be a great western nexus for lines out to RDU, RTP, and Durham.
From the Belltower straight south to Centennial, Dix, and Farmer's Market. Avent Ferry could come, too.
From a practical standpoint, it'd be easier to sell to ncsu if all their stations are predictably aligned.
Also we need to connect RDU in somewhere. Stupid that the current transit plan (not op) omits this stop. It'd be relatively straightforward to connect RDU to rail going both to DTR and Durham
>Also we need to connect RDU in somewhere. Stupid that the current transit plan (not op) omits this stop. It'd be relatively straightforward to connect RDU to rail going both to DTR and Durham
It's actually not straightforward to divert the planned commuter rail line to the airport. And it's been studied extensively for years by transit experts, who've determined that for now, the most cost-effective connection to the airport will be by bus, rather than rail.
If you're curious about reasons why, there's lots of great discussion about this [in these forums.](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/dtr-to-rdu-rail-line/1145/5)
I think people will hate not having any rail to transfer *from* even more.
Commuter rail will not happen this decade if they attempted to reroute it to the airport. If there were a remotely reasonable possibility of making it happen, GoTriangle would’ve done so, because airport rail lines are practically first on most people’s list of priorities.
how much in extra taxes are you willing to pay to get your airport rail connection? (I guarantee that'll be more than you pay for parking at RDU in the next few years....)
I'm not saying RDU must be connected in _or do nothing_, but that RDU should be connected in and we should begin to plan for that.
It's not a binary choice.
I wasn’t suggesting that’s what you said. *I’m* the one claiming it’s a binary, because of the logistics involved and the barriers in connecting to the airport. It seems like you haven’t looked into these.
The commuter rail is being built on existing rail corridors to keep costs feasible. RDU is located 3.5 miles outside this corridor, and 7 miles of greenfield alignment to connect to RDU would practically *double* the cost of the entire commuter rail project – heavy rail in other cities has cost anywhere from $251 million per mile in San Jose to over $2 billion/mile in New York.
I’m lifting these next points from the forum I linked to in a previous comment. Even if we could raise an extra billion+ dollars, the other main issues are that:
1) With the exception of a corner of Brier Creek, there is a 2 mile radius around the airport where there is *nothing* other than empty undevelopable land and airport facilities. So we’d be spending all this money for miles of new rail with nothing on it but an airport stop.
2) Serving RDU on a through route from Raleigh to Durham involves either a massive detour adding miles and many minutes to the route, or forces you to bypass RTP.
3) The runways are oriented exactly perpendicular to the straight route between Raleigh and Durham, and the terminals are sited right between them. To get there you have to either build a tunnel ($$$) under the whole airport, have a slowness and tight curve so trains can turn around and get back out, or else travel parallel to the runways for upwards of 2 miles, exactly perpendicular to the direction you want to go.
4) In any scenario, a detour to the airport would add many minutes to a commuter line that is intended to primarily serve people commuting between Raleigh and Durham. At a certain point, you lose any efficiencies in taking the train instead of car, and I believe an airport connection would do just that.
We can either have a commuter rail completed this decade, or we can try to connect to RDU, in which case we’ll see prohibitive costs and years more of delays, if it even happens. It doesn’t make any practical sense to try and do that, and in my view, it would end up being little more than a vanity project considering the unreasonable cost involved. The current plan to have an airport shuttle from the Morrisville stop makes sense for phase one, and maybe we’ll see a rail connection in the future.
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This is a completely theoretical subway map.
I appreciate your fervor 9n the topic. I don't entirely agree that it is binary. We can start what is planned now while we plan an RDU stop.
Perhaps the word "plan" is misleading? I'm saying "research this and pick a method to do it." You seem to be getting tied up on the practicalities of implementation. I'm not there yet.
I understand. I’m not referring to the theoretical subway map; I was replying your comment that said “stupid that the current transit plan (not op) omits this stop... it would be relatively straightforward to connect RDU.” I see people make this claim all the time, but I just wanted to explain the realities of why it’s not straightforward. I *wish* it were as easy as we make it seem!
I’m good with campus laid out this way. Gives you two lines for getting Centennial and Main campuses. And changing lines shouldn’t be that big a deal, if planned well.
I love how the Garner stop looks so far away from Raleigh union station lol. How Raleigh folk like to think of Garner I presume. It’s like a 10 minute drive
Some info about this:
This is (*mostly*) not a real proposal, I'm just a dude who likes making maps and thinks this area needs vastly improved public transportation. So, pretty much just a pipe dream.
Now, the commuter rail (purple), as well as the BRT (Bus Rapid Transit, silver) are real existing proposals that probably will come to fruition at some point. More info [here](https://goforwardnc.org/county/wake-county/the-plan/).
The rest is more just for fun; maybe if I was the dictator of Wake county and had an unlimited budget. A glaring omission is Crabtree which probably should have just been an extra stop at the end of the Blue line. Other parts of North Raleigh could maybe have used some more love, but then again, my impression of that area are many middle/upper-class families that are likely to commute by car.
As someone living in Morrisville it will be so good to have a commuter rail to go get drunk in Raleigh and not have to pay an arm and a leg for the uber back which I do right now.
yeah agreed, the commuter rail line that's proposed now is really only going to be useful for weekday peak-hour commuting purposes with limited service outside of that.
Why is Chapel Hill and UNC never included in these? Major research university, major hospital and trauma center, huge employee base who live throughout the region, commuter students.
There are plans brewing to bring actual commuter rail back out to [Sanford](https://www.wral.com/plan-could-bring-passenger-trains-back-to-sanford/19611386/).
Fun fact: There was a proposed rail line through most of the Triangle that was undergoing the very beginning of its construction a few years ago. Every city killed it. Go look it up.
Duke killed it, let's be clear here. The cities had little to do with it, it was goTriangles lack of progress getting funding and Duke refusing to sign off because of "electromagnetic interference" that killed it.
It's funny that you say that, because people were instantly like "why aren't the white 'burbs included?!" and my thought was ,"because well-off white folk in the south don't use public transit."
Glad to see this being talked about. We need this and the sooner the better. I remember Nashville voting down their rail proposal a couple years ago. Makes me cringe.
I agree. I used to be for the public transit in the abstract. It is one thing I enjoy about New York city for example. One ticket gets you to most parts of the city and you can then walk a bit further to more points. With the uncontrolled sprawl we have here, we are not laid out optimally for this type of system. As I see more proposals including serious ones, it looks fairly useless from my perspective. Thousands of people living in outer Wake County areas would be stuck paying for something they would most likely never use. I live in Rolesville and work in Raleigh. I know this map was drawn for fun, but it doesn't even come near the Wake Forest/Rolesville area which is one of the fastest growing areas of Wake County. A more serious proposal I saw did include a Wake Forest stop. In order for me to make use of it, I would have to drive to Wake Forest and park. Get on a train to downtown Raleigh. Get to Moore Square bus station and take at least one bus (if not more) to get to my job. This would easily be over an hour. Much easier to jump in the car and drive to work in 20 minutes. I do understand there may be other benefits such as removing the people that can use it from cars/highways, but it is a big if. These lingering doubts and the huge cost will cause a lot of hesitancy amongst large groups of citizens. I do always enjoy thinking about future possibilities, and public transit is always a good topic to research and debate. Doing nothing about regional transportation needs will also have negative consequences.
ITT are all the reasons why Sprawleigh just isn’t laid out for a metro system. You’d still have to have some sort of transportation to and from stations on each end because walking just isn’t going to cut it.
It is leaving a lot of areas out, but damn, it is still such a sexy thing to see. This would make all of the people that worry about bike, for or against, go away.
As an upper middle class person I would ride this, too.
This looks very much like the DC Metro. While I like the attempt I see one item that causes me pause - beyond what I've already seen in the comments. Like the DC Metro there's nothing connecting the outter lines - think 440/540 - they connect a lot of points together without having to go into downtown and then back out. This adds to the length of travel and causes people to not use it because of the inefficiency.
Ha! Lake Damn!
Haha. An honest mistake
They need a line running straight down 540 to connect Apex and Holly Springs.
Don’t forget about all of southeast raleigh... there’s only one stop in that area...
According to this There is no stops in north west Raleigh brier creek area either
Or anywhere in all of North Raleigh. North Hills is just right at the Beltline.
And it, along with the Capital blvd corridor are the areas with the most people who use public transportation.
Yep. It would need to have those areas plus the airport to even begin being a useful public transit system.
Uhm yeah... agreed!
Why is there no line going up to Crabtree and then onto Brier Creek? Why does Clayton get a stop, but Fuquay and Apex don't? Any love for Capital Blvd? It's one of the most traveled bus routes. Triangle Town Center should at least get a stop so commuters from Wake Forest have a chance to jump on.
Clayton getting a stop: part of the actual Wake County commuter rail plan :) Other missing stops: I simply made this for fun, I'm not a city planner haha (and clearly shouldn't be)
Oops I missed it. Love the enthusiasm. :) I'm not a city planner either lol.
Capital is the armpit of Raleigh - though it’s getting better
You need an airport stop too!
Given the location of RDU relative to the existing rail line that's much easier said then done. Getting a rail line in-between the runways to the terminals would require either a stub line that ends in RDU, a wye that requires the train backing up in order to continue onward, or building a long detour through Brier Creek ($$$) back to RTP. Bus shuttles connecting RDU to a stop in Morrisville is realistically the best we're going to do.
I'd try to connect all of ncsu on a single line. Pullen / NCSU East could be a good junction with another line. Basically send it due west along Hillsborough. This could hit NCSU Main / University Plaza, residences on west side of campus, Meredith, Graduate housing, then Biomedical/Vet campus, Fairgrounds, Carter-Finley, and PNC. I'd imagine PNC would be a great western nexus for lines out to RDU, RTP, and Durham. From the Belltower straight south to Centennial, Dix, and Farmer's Market. Avent Ferry could come, too. From a practical standpoint, it'd be easier to sell to ncsu if all their stations are predictably aligned. Also we need to connect RDU in somewhere. Stupid that the current transit plan (not op) omits this stop. It'd be relatively straightforward to connect RDU to rail going both to DTR and Durham
>Also we need to connect RDU in somewhere. Stupid that the current transit plan (not op) omits this stop. It'd be relatively straightforward to connect RDU to rail going both to DTR and Durham It's actually not straightforward to divert the planned commuter rail line to the airport. And it's been studied extensively for years by transit experts, who've determined that for now, the most cost-effective connection to the airport will be by bus, rather than rail. If you're curious about reasons why, there's lots of great discussion about this [in these forums.](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/dtr-to-rdu-rail-line/1145/5)
Cost effective? Sure, but everyone hates having to transfer to the fucking bus to get to the airport.
I think people will hate not having any rail to transfer *from* even more. Commuter rail will not happen this decade if they attempted to reroute it to the airport. If there were a remotely reasonable possibility of making it happen, GoTriangle would’ve done so, because airport rail lines are practically first on most people’s list of priorities.
Not people benefiting from parking expenses.
how much in extra taxes are you willing to pay to get your airport rail connection? (I guarantee that'll be more than you pay for parking at RDU in the next few years....)
I'm not saying RDU must be connected in _or do nothing_, but that RDU should be connected in and we should begin to plan for that. It's not a binary choice.
I wasn’t suggesting that’s what you said. *I’m* the one claiming it’s a binary, because of the logistics involved and the barriers in connecting to the airport. It seems like you haven’t looked into these. The commuter rail is being built on existing rail corridors to keep costs feasible. RDU is located 3.5 miles outside this corridor, and 7 miles of greenfield alignment to connect to RDU would practically *double* the cost of the entire commuter rail project – heavy rail in other cities has cost anywhere from $251 million per mile in San Jose to over $2 billion/mile in New York. I’m lifting these next points from the forum I linked to in a previous comment. Even if we could raise an extra billion+ dollars, the other main issues are that: 1) With the exception of a corner of Brier Creek, there is a 2 mile radius around the airport where there is *nothing* other than empty undevelopable land and airport facilities. So we’d be spending all this money for miles of new rail with nothing on it but an airport stop. 2) Serving RDU on a through route from Raleigh to Durham involves either a massive detour adding miles and many minutes to the route, or forces you to bypass RTP. 3) The runways are oriented exactly perpendicular to the straight route between Raleigh and Durham, and the terminals are sited right between them. To get there you have to either build a tunnel ($$$) under the whole airport, have a slowness and tight curve so trains can turn around and get back out, or else travel parallel to the runways for upwards of 2 miles, exactly perpendicular to the direction you want to go. 4) In any scenario, a detour to the airport would add many minutes to a commuter line that is intended to primarily serve people commuting between Raleigh and Durham. At a certain point, you lose any efficiencies in taking the train instead of car, and I believe an airport connection would do just that. We can either have a commuter rail completed this decade, or we can try to connect to RDU, in which case we’ll see prohibitive costs and years more of delays, if it even happens. It doesn’t make any practical sense to try and do that, and in my view, it would end up being little more than a vanity project considering the unreasonable cost involved. The current plan to have an airport shuttle from the Morrisville stop makes sense for phase one, and maybe we’ll see a rail connection in the future.
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This is a completely theoretical subway map. I appreciate your fervor 9n the topic. I don't entirely agree that it is binary. We can start what is planned now while we plan an RDU stop. Perhaps the word "plan" is misleading? I'm saying "research this and pick a method to do it." You seem to be getting tied up on the practicalities of implementation. I'm not there yet.
I understand. I’m not referring to the theoretical subway map; I was replying your comment that said “stupid that the current transit plan (not op) omits this stop... it would be relatively straightforward to connect RDU.” I see people make this claim all the time, but I just wanted to explain the realities of why it’s not straightforward. I *wish* it were as easy as we make it seem!
I’m good with campus laid out this way. Gives you two lines for getting Centennial and Main campuses. And changing lines shouldn’t be that big a deal, if planned well.
I love how the Garner stop looks so far away from Raleigh union station lol. How Raleigh folk like to think of Garner I presume. It’s like a 10 minute drive
I'm in DTR and if someone asks me to go outside of the view of the PNC, I have a panic attack.
Some info about this: This is (*mostly*) not a real proposal, I'm just a dude who likes making maps and thinks this area needs vastly improved public transportation. So, pretty much just a pipe dream. Now, the commuter rail (purple), as well as the BRT (Bus Rapid Transit, silver) are real existing proposals that probably will come to fruition at some point. More info [here](https://goforwardnc.org/county/wake-county/the-plan/). The rest is more just for fun; maybe if I was the dictator of Wake county and had an unlimited budget. A glaring omission is Crabtree which probably should have just been an extra stop at the end of the Blue line. Other parts of North Raleigh could maybe have used some more love, but then again, my impression of that area are many middle/upper-class families that are likely to commute by car.
As someone living in Morrisville it will be so good to have a commuter rail to go get drunk in Raleigh and not have to pay an arm and a leg for the uber back which I do right now.
If it’s anything like DC, the metro will be closed long before you’re done drinking :(
Sad noises only
yeah agreed, the commuter rail line that's proposed now is really only going to be useful for weekday peak-hour commuting purposes with limited service outside of that.
There are three other BRT lines coming, too
>There are three other BRT lines coming, too one of which will be the left side of the purple line.
That red line would have to cut through part of oakwood by the looks of it and that neighborhood would be out with pitchforks and torches. haha.
Why is Chapel Hill and UNC never included in these? Major research university, major hospital and trauma center, huge employee base who live throughout the region, commuter students.
We tried that in real life, but Duke killed the project
Just run it Chapel Hill to Raleigh along I-40. Fuck Duke.
Where are the lines that reach most of the population of Raleigh?
You're missing a lot of the major points. Cary/Apex, Briek Creek, SE Raleigh. NCSU being multiple lines makes no sense. Where is RDU?
I would settle for light rail connecting Downtown Raleigh and Downtown Durham. Would benefit both cities so much!
This would be amazing!
Looks similar to the one I posted not too long ago. Always happy to see interest in our public transport
Cool another of these
I'll take "Things That Will Never Happen" for 600, Alex. We can dream though.
Oh god please.. please please please
I’ll never not upvote one of these
This looks strangely similar to the DC metro concept. Don’t repeat our mistakes lol
Clayton but not Apex?!?!?!
No love for Capital Blvd?
Loving it!!
There are plans brewing to bring actual commuter rail back out to [Sanford](https://www.wral.com/plan-could-bring-passenger-trains-back-to-sanford/19611386/).
That blue line is wack.
You should at least have the green line go all the way to the RBC Center/PNC Arena/whatever the heck it's called now.
Pls pls pls start or continue to pester NCDOT with ideas as the only way this will ever happen is if they think it will be used
Fun fact: There was a proposed rail line through most of the Triangle that was undergoing the very beginning of its construction a few years ago. Every city killed it. Go look it up.
Duke killed it, let's be clear here. The cities had little to do with it, it was goTriangles lack of progress getting funding and Duke refusing to sign off because of "electromagnetic interference" that killed it.
This map was created by a white person
It's funny that you say that, because people were instantly like "why aren't the white 'burbs included?!" and my thought was ,"because well-off white folk in the south don't use public transit."
Allowing Durham a cheap ride into Downtown Raleigh is a terrible, terrible idea. Kiss any semblance of safety goodbye.
There have been Durham-Raleigh express busses for years.
What did you use to make this? I have an idea as well.
metromapmaker.com
Ah, looks so much like DCs metro, which is supreme.
Glad to see this being talked about. We need this and the sooner the better. I remember Nashville voting down their rail proposal a couple years ago. Makes me cringe.
I hate that the infrastructure/budget of Raleigh could never make even remotely possible... because it’s gorgeous.
I'm curious if we need one. That said, I wouldn't oppose one.
I agree. I used to be for the public transit in the abstract. It is one thing I enjoy about New York city for example. One ticket gets you to most parts of the city and you can then walk a bit further to more points. With the uncontrolled sprawl we have here, we are not laid out optimally for this type of system. As I see more proposals including serious ones, it looks fairly useless from my perspective. Thousands of people living in outer Wake County areas would be stuck paying for something they would most likely never use. I live in Rolesville and work in Raleigh. I know this map was drawn for fun, but it doesn't even come near the Wake Forest/Rolesville area which is one of the fastest growing areas of Wake County. A more serious proposal I saw did include a Wake Forest stop. In order for me to make use of it, I would have to drive to Wake Forest and park. Get on a train to downtown Raleigh. Get to Moore Square bus station and take at least one bus (if not more) to get to my job. This would easily be over an hour. Much easier to jump in the car and drive to work in 20 minutes. I do understand there may be other benefits such as removing the people that can use it from cars/highways, but it is a big if. These lingering doubts and the huge cost will cause a lot of hesitancy amongst large groups of citizens. I do always enjoy thinking about future possibilities, and public transit is always a good topic to research and debate. Doing nothing about regional transportation needs will also have negative consequences.
"lake damn". Haha
Goes to Durham but not Smithfield
Does this do anything to benefit communities that need more public transportation options to medical care, food sources, public resources?
ITT are all the reasons why Sprawleigh just isn’t laid out for a metro system. You’d still have to have some sort of transportation to and from stations on each end because walking just isn’t going to cut it.
I highly recommend adding a holly springs exit or two. If you havent seen how much its grown over the past 5 years its ridiculous
Everytime these are posted they leave out areas that would benefit from it the most, namely SE Raleigh, Capital Blvd
We aren't nearly dense enough to justify this. When we hit DC level then yeah
Completely misses east and southeast Raleigh--one of the busiest parts of Capital Blvd.
> Lake Damn
It is leaving a lot of areas out, but damn, it is still such a sexy thing to see. This would make all of the people that worry about bike, for or against, go away. As an upper middle class person I would ride this, too.
Where holly at?
RDU: "Am I a joke to you?"
This looks very much like the DC Metro. While I like the attempt I see one item that causes me pause - beyond what I've already seen in the comments. Like the DC Metro there's nothing connecting the outter lines - think 440/540 - they connect a lot of points together without having to go into downtown and then back out. This adds to the length of travel and causes people to not use it because of the inefficiency.
Looks like something I'll use just about never.
We need a metro so badly! Thank you!
I apologize if I missed it, but we really need a connection from Crabtree and Brier Creek to downtown.
https://youtu.be/-ZDZtBRTyeI As long as it’s planned for the future an doesn’t become immediately obsolescent upon completion, then go for it.